S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[tv-talk]

4 minutes ago, Leroux said:

Daenerys only does what she wants regardless of any advise given so the monumental mistakes that have cost her a dragon, some ships and her best friend fall squarely on her shoulders. 

Sansa didn't lose her a dragon, didn't lose her Missandei, didn't lose her ships. Daenerys managed to do that all on her own. 

This is so true. Ton of blame being heaped on Tyrion and others bt it's pretty clear Dany does whatever she wants and it was in fact Dany herself who apparently was joy riding on Drogon's back instead of, you know, actually scouting the seas for signs of enemy fleet.

[Detective005]

For me, this is the worst episode in the entire series. I mean, I had already thought that the difference between the seasons based on Martin's book and the others was obvious. The last two have a lot of inorganic and illogical decisions. But I don't understand why the showrunners took them. Is it an economic problem?
In the previous episode a mythical dragon was killed by a mediocre character like Euron? In that way? Are they serious? Suddenly Euron seems to me a much better enemy than the king of the night, because he did what the other did in two seasons. Suddenly daenerys goes mad and from Alexander the great becomes calligula for showrunners who want to balance forces on the fild. This show was written so well and I really don't understand why it been had to ruin it at all costs

Edited May 8, 2019 by Detective005

[Bryce Lynch]

I love Jon, but he really is a fool.

Jon: I need to tell you something. But you have to swear you'll never tell another soul.

Arya : What is it?

Jon: You have to swear it, before I tell you.

Sansa: How can I promise to keep a secret if I don't even know what it is? 

Jon: Because we're family.  Swear it.

Arya: (clearly and looking Jon straight in the eyes)  I swear it.

Sansa: (sort of mumbling and slurred) I swear it.  It was more like more like "Uh swear uh", actually.   

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

This is so true. Ton of blame being heaped on Tyrion and others bt it's pretty clear Dany does whatever she wants and it was in fact Dany herself who apparently was joy riding on Drogon's back instead of, you know, actually scouting the seas for signs of enemy fleet.

Daenerys has given in to her advisers more often than not, and usually to her own detriment. 

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa: (sort of mumbling and slurred) I swear it.  It was more like more like "Uh swear uh", actually.   

Like this?

[Drumpf1737]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Just because it ended badly doesn't mean the advice was bad. The wight should have worked - you just can't really count on the reactions of those in power who are at their core unreasonable and unpredictable.

Then the execution was bad. To keep going into battle thinking the dragons are impervious to harm is wrongheaded, obviously.

[RealReality]

26 minutes ago, Leroux said:

Cersei wins one way or the other. I think Cersei realizes that is over, there is no way she can hold onto power so she is going with a bang. She is using people as human shields, she still has catches of wildfire all around the city and she is consciously baiting Daenerys to attack and burn the city to the ground. Like Tyrion told her, she hates the people of KL so she doesn't care if they live or die. 

The issue at hand is why is Daeneys taking the bait? Strategically she has taken all the wrong decisions, she could have scouted, she could have stopped at the Vale and organize from there, she could have retaken Riverrun back from the Lanisters who are now huddle up in KLs, she could have communicated with the new prince of Dorne and ask for more people, communicate with Daario and ask him to send more of her armies in Essos. She could have gone to battle much better prepared and still have Rhaegal and Missandei by her side. They have a plan that doesn't include the use of dragons, Tyrion has warned her since last season that there is wildfire all over the city and that is why they haven't attack KL as soon as they arrived. Her best weapon at this point would have been to surround Cersei on all fronts, have all the other kingdoms on her side and surround KL, block all services and food deliveries, every day she doesn't attack cost Cersei money for the soldiers of the GC. Then wait for the people inside the city to start a riot because they are starved. This is the strategy that basically was going to win her the throne, it would be slower but it would avoid mass murdering of civilians. Once it is over she sweeps the city and sets food delivery immediately for the people, maesters for the injured, orphanages, etc. 

She did exactly the opposite, made rush decisions that have cost her another one of her dragons and her best friend and now she is enraged and ready to retaliate which is exactly what Cersei wants. Cersei wants her to set her dragons on the city, she wants the city to burn to ashes so once Daenerys finally wins the war her reign will be tainted forever. She would be the queen who burned the city to the ground with 1M-1/2M people inside it, how do you recover from that? how would she feel about that?

Daenerys has backed herself into a corner and it all could have been prevented. 

This is a great analysis.  Dany isn't "mad" but I think she isn't a cooley strategic as Sansa or cersei.  She has a heart and she has strong emotions which can sometimes allow her to make decisions that aren't as logical as they could be.  

This isn't always a weakness in my book.  Freeing slaves and allowing them to choose their own path is illogical, but Dany did it because she felt it was wrong.  The northerners (sansa's) weird xenophobia probably makes sense but it sucks. Danys humanity isn't logical.  But the flip side is that when she gets seriously pissed she may be quick to not fully think things through and to just burn shit to the ground.

21 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah I'm afraid you're right, damn show. They finally pulled me back into Jon's character and now he's going to die because of Dany or Sansa based on an all-founded allegiance to them they probably dont have for him. Just make it quick is all I ask.

I know, I hope we're wrong.  

[darkestboy]

Damn, that hurt. Poor Missandei but let her death be the last serious misdeed that Cersei gets away with before the show ends.

I think Tyrion has paved the way for Euron to turn on Cersei with his little speech about children. Euron also can't die quick enough as far as I'm concerned.

Protect Drogon and Ghost at all costs.

Jaime and Brienne, everything was telegraphed with them. Same with Arya, Gendry and the Hound, though not a bad thing in the latter case.

Dany really could become another Mad Queen and Tyrion/Varys conspiring can only backfire on them.

Sansa has a right to express doubt over Dany/Jon but even I felt a little bad for Dany in this one, not to mention Grey Worm. 

Like last week, I'm not sure this episode needed the extra time but at least it wasn't bloody dark to watch though. 8/10

[magpye29]

“Whoever wrote this episode should DIE!”

[Detective005]

3 hours ago, Leroux said:

Cersei wins one way or the other. I think Cersei realizes that is over, there is no way she can hold onto power so she is going with a bang. She is using people as human shields, she still has catches of wildfire all around the city and she is consciously baiting Daenerys to attack and burn the city to the ground. Like Tyrion told her, she hates the people of KL so she doesn't care if they live or die. 

The issue at hand is why is Daeneys taking the bait? Strategically she has taken all the wrong decisions, she could have scouted, she could have stopped at the Vale and organize from there, she could have retaken Riverrun back from the Lanisters who are now huddle up in KLs, she could have communicated with the new prince of Dorne and ask for more people, communicate with Daario and ask him to send more of her armies in Essos. She could have gone to battle much better prepared and still have Rhaegal and Missandei by her side. They have a plan that doesn't include the use of dragons, Tyrion has warned her since last season that there is wildfire all over the city and that is why they haven't attack KL as soon as they arrived. Her best weapon at this point would have been to surround Cersei on all fronts, have all the other kingdoms on her side and surround KL, block all services and food deliveries, every day she doesn't attack cost Cersei money for the soldiers of the GC. Then wait for the people inside the city to start a riot because they are starved. This is the strategy that basically was going to win her the throne, it would be slower but it would avoid mass murdering of civilians. Once it is over she sweeps the city and sets food delivery immediately for the people, maesters for the injured, orphanages, etc. 

She did exactly the opposite, made rush decisions that have cost her another one of her dragons and her best friend and now she is enraged and ready to retaliate which is exactly what Cersei wants. Cersei wants her to set her dragons on the city, she wants the city to burn to ashes so once Daenerys finally wins the war her reign will be tainted forever. She would be the queen who burned the city to the ground with 1M-1/2M people inside it, how do you recover from that? how would she feel about that?

Daenerys has backed herself into a corner and it all could have been prevented. 

This is, I think, what Daenerys in her prime would have done, but the showrunners turn her from an emotional character to a crazy one. I know they probably did it because they don't have much time, but they should have found other ways

Edited May 8, 2019 by Detective005

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Not to mention - she observed the master manipulator herself - Cersei.

Cersei once told Sansa that tears weren't a woman's only weapon and that the most powerful one is between their legs <-scratch that, it's apparently their hair. 

Sansa in season 6, back home at Winterfell, devoted to her family and protecting the North:

Sansa in season 7, becoming a player in the game both with and without Littlefinger:

Sansa in season 8, after meeting Daenerys:

Talk about a chameleon. 

I love this photo of Sansa and Dany - one is of the icy North but has hair kissed by fire, the other the last Fire & Blood dragon with snow white hair.  So similar and so different at the same time... but both stubborn as fuck.

[RealReality]

29 minutes ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Then the execution was bad. To keep going into battle thinking the dragons are impervious to harm is wrongheaded, obviously.

I've been wondering about this!  They have like 20 of those dragon killing weapons on top of the castle,  is Dany going to take such a high risk with her last dragon?  How can she use drogon effectively in battle even if she wants to burn it all to the ground?

[tv-talk]

What bothers me about Sansa telling Tyrion is not so much that she is trying to undermine Dany, I mean why not that woman didnt even have a drink with anyone after the battle for the world, but rather that it doesnt appear she has any sort of plan in place other than poison the well and hope Dany dies but not Jon. I still cant see the logic in simply telling Tyrion and hoping that causes Dany to fail while somehow also ensuring Cersei is defeated. If she wanted to undermine Dany, the time to do it was at Winterfell amongst the North who would have INSTANTLY accepted Jon as King of the 7. Feels like poor writing to me.

Edited May 8, 2019 by tv-talk

[DigitalCount]

53 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I love Jon, but he really is a fool.

Jon: I need to tell you something. But you have to swear you'll never tell another soul.

Arya : What is it?

Jon: You have to swear it, before I tell you.

Sansa: How can I promise to keep a secret if I don't even know what it is? 

Jon: Because we're family.  Swear it.

Arya: (clearly and looking Jon straight in the eyes)  I swear it.

Sansa: (sort of mumbling and slurred) I swear it.  It was more like more like "Uh swear uh", actually.   

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it actually surprised me. I'm not even sure Sophie Turner was speaking English. Why would Jon think, okay, sure, close enough? In fairness to Sansa, she had already expressed at this point that she objected to the premise of the agreement, and I don't think it was fair for him to really expect her to adhere to it even once she knew what it was.

[Chaser]

12 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

What bothers me about Sansa telling Tyrion is not so much that she is trying to undermine Dany, I mean why not that woman didnt even have a drink with anyone after the battle for the world, but rather that it doesnt appear she has any sort of plan in place other than poison the well and hope Dany dies but not Jon. I still cant see the logic in simply telling Tyrion and hoping that causes Dany to fail while somehow also ensuring Cersei is defeated. If she wanted to undermine Dany, the time to do it was at Winterfell amongst the North who would have INSTANTLY accepted Jon as King of the 7. Feels like poor writing to me.

If Sansa had told the masses, she would have lost the North. Her troops weren't in a position to fight and Dany still had half an army and two dragons. She would have destroyed Winterfell if they rose up.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Chaser

[mothmonsterman]

I’ve been thinking about Sansa lately and how she is acting. At first I felt she was poorly written. Then I thought about it more. She was a bit of an ass when she was younger, she went through some horrible times; made it out. Now she is older and she is a bit of an ass. That is usually how life goes, people keep their general attitudes. 

[TaurusRose]

14 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it actually surprised me. I'm not even sure Sophie Turner was speaking English. Why would Jon think, okay, sure, close enough? In fairness to Sansa, she had already expressed at this point that she objected to the premise of the agreement, and I don't think it was fair for him to really expect her to adhere to it even once she knew what it was.

Really?  That is strange logic IMO. I would expect someone to keep their word, if they gave it, no matter how much they hedged up front.  However, in my defense, I probably would have slammed on the brakes and said, "You know what?  Nevermind." But, (for the sake of argument) if I ignored my gut instinct and carried on, I don't think I would be shocked if they broke their word, but I would certainly be mad as hell and they would suffer the consequences.  

[tv-talk]

34 minutes ago, Chaser said:

If Sansa had told the masses, she would have lost the North. Her troops weren't in a position to fight and Dany still had half an army and two dragons. She would have destroyed Winterfell if they rose up.

Except Dany would have been in the room and unable to do anything. Hell they could have killed her if they wanted (not that I think they would have). More importantly though, what would Dany gain by burning the North? She'd have zero allies aside from 5,000 Unsullied or whatever and her 2 dragons which would soon be dead at hands of those crossbows. Even more importantly, she'd be burning the North for not accepting her as the rightful heir to the Throne when she ISNT the rightful heir.

All Sansa had to do was make the info public and Jon would be King.

[Law Mom]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jon: I need to tell you something. But you have to swear you'll never tell another soul.

Arya : What is it?

Jon: You have to swear it, before I tell you.

Sansa: How can I promise to keep a secret if I don't even know what it is? 

Jon: Because we're family.  Swear it.

So Jon got them to swear playing off his status as their brother when in fact he is not their brother. It's the truth--cousins are family--but not the whole truth. He induced their oath based on a lie of omission so they should not be bound by it.

[taanja]

On 5/5/2019 at 10:33 PM, catrice2 said:

And Missandei, the former slave, dies with her hands in chains.....gotta love these writers. 

That is called... irony .. and also....life. Sometimes life sucks and then you die.

[taanja]

On 5/5/2019 at 10:52 PM, Hiacios said:

Then you forgot about the faceless men to which Arya broke their rules in killing people on her list.

That was years ago and she was punished by being blinded.

[Bali]

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

I've been wondering about this!  They have like 20 of those dragon killing weapons on top of the castle,  is Dany going to take such a high risk with her last dragon?  How can she use drogon effectively in battle even if she wants to burn it all to the ground?

Oh have no fear- if the writers need Drogon, then the 20 stationary killing things will miraculously miss him, but the 30 that are bobbing around unsteady on the ocean will kill off Rhaegal because plot is more important than character at this point. (I.E. We can do whatever we want because we don't need to worry about the ratings anymore.)

[tv-talk]

22 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

So Jon got them to swear playing off his status as their brother when in fact he is not their brother. It's the truth--cousins are family--but not the whole truth. He induced their oath based on a lie of omission so they should not be bound by it.

Well he didnt say "because I'm your brother" so technically he was being honest. More importantly tho, that was the actual secret! So how could he say "You must swear to this because we're family but not like you think, I'll get to that if you promise not to tell."

[taanja]

On 5/5/2019 at 11:32 PM, quarks said:

HBO! SOME OF US ARE ONLY WATCHING THIS SHOW FOR THE DRAGONS! STOP KILLING THEM OFF!

(sobs)

The "dragons" are fake fake fake. Don't waste your tears.

Many of us are watching NOT for the silly dragons and zombies-- but for the human characters and the Game of Thrones itself. << as in == who will win???? and who will die????

Fake animals and fake walking dead folk need not apply.

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Do you really think neither Jon, Ser Davos, Grey Worm, Brienne or Nameless Dothraki Commnader had checked on the readiness of their troops?

Nothing in that scene implied that Jon had done anything of the sort.

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's why Sansa said they should ask them (the commanders) about it. If Jon and Dany already had asked them they would have just said that. There was no reason to be threatened by the question.

Exactly.

18 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

All those commanders are experienced, dedicated commanders who care about their troops.  They would have know the state of their troops before the meeting.

And yet none of them said that they had spoken with their captains or checked on the state of their troops, so I'm not buying this.  Ymmv, as always.

[Wulfsige]

2 minutes ago, taanja said:

The "dragons" are fake fake fake. Don't waste your tears.

Many of us are watching NOT for the silly dragons and zombies-- but for the human characters and the Game of Thrones itself. << as in == who will win???? and who will die????

Fake animals and fake walking dead folk need not apply.

Not to mention, they’re weapons of war. I don’t think the other side cares if they’re her ‘children’. 

[RealReality]

LOL, I like the dragons because they are fantastically ugly beautiful creatures.  I guess Dany has a lot of self control because I would be insufferable if I had a power of Dragonfire in my arsenal.

[Nashville]

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

The Republic of Venice outlasted a ton of monarchies surrounding it for more than a thousand years.

The name notwithstanding, the Republic of Venice was...

1. Not a democracy, exactly; it was a commercial oligarchy ruled by merchants and aristocrats.
2. A city-sized patch of lagoons with no discernible natural resources; its primary economic support was serving as a neutral base of free trade, particularly shipping.

...which I mention only to point out a rulerless Westeros - with significant agricultural production, and a territory the size of the United Kingdom - would present a much more attractive target for acquisition to its feudal neighbors.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

"The Last of the Starks" sure seems like a more important title than many episode titles. 

I took the episode’s title as a simple statement of fact: the Stark name dies with this generation...

• Any children Jon fathers would be raised under the name Snow if he keeps his secret, or Targaryen if he doesn’t; either way, they won’t be named Stark.
• If Sansa bears any children they’ll carry their father’s last name if borne in wedlock, or Snow if not.
• Ditto Arya - not to mention, the possibility of Arya bearing any children at all is far more remote a possibility.

...so unless (a) Bran’s paralysis doesn’t extend to ALL areas below the waist AND (b) Mr. 3ER can develop a *little* more personality than a dinner plate - enough to engage some willing (or desperate) female to the point of marriage, anyway - then the Stark name dies with this crew.

2 hours ago, terrymct said:

Sansa was raised to be a lady of the castle and as such she's supposed to support her man.  She was a scared kid who tried to walk the line between supporting Joffrey while not technically lying.  

IMHO a more accurate estimation would be: Sansa was raised to be a power behind the throne, not the person who sat in it.

If nothing else, Cersei has been - and still is - an excellent mentor in this particular crash course.  When Cersei was weaving her webs secondhand in the background behind the successive Robert / Joffrey / Tommen meatshields she was wicked effective, which isn’t surprising; her father Tywin was the best at that sort of thing, and Cersei learned well.  Plant Cersei’s ass directly on the Iron Throne, though, and the result has been one spectacular shitshow; Cersei doesn’t relate to her subjects at all, they don’t relate to her, and her rule has devolved to an open gate swinging between placating the masses vs. scaring them into acquiescence via ultimatums and propagandized fear.

1 hour ago, Leroux said:

Wouldn't that be Jon's job though? Sansa is the Lady of WF, why would she have that information, it would be more a question of common sense. You do not send recovering troops to another battle right away. Sansa had to remind her that these troops were her troops as well, as a Queen she should be looking for their welfare too. 

Well, which is it? Sansa’s responsibility to raise the subject of the troops’ condition - in which case she better be at least somewhat informed on the subject she raised?  Or Jon’s responsibility - in which case Sansa should not have been the one raising the subject in the first place?  You can’t have it both ways.

Sansa voiced a kneejerk objection when Dany stated her intention to march the troops south, but in so doing committed a rookie mistake: Sansa voiced her objection as a statement of fact, but then couldn’t respond to an easily-foreseen followup question.  Upon hearing Dany’s plan, Sansa’s more politic move would have been to frame her objection as a question asked to elicit relevant information, rather than as a statement of established information; to say to Dany, “I see the merit in your plan, but I have a significant concern about our ability to execute it” - then turn to the troop leaders and ASK, “Commanders, are your troops healthy enough to make the march to Kings Landing in a fortnight and arrive in a battle-ready state?”

See the difference?  Unfortunately for Sansa, she could not - and her firm statement followed by immediate waffling and buck-passing accomplished nothing except to weaken perception of the value of her input.

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I mean they have to be somewhere in the capital.. And its a safe bet she's already there.. Somewhere.. The only problem is.. If the writers wanna surprise us.. They can't do it.. Because the second I see one of those poor inbred golden lions ( not bastard Joffery)  we'd know it was Arya 

Joffrey and Myrcella were both buried in the Sept of Baelor, and their bodies were destroyed when Cersei had it blown up.  She had Tommen cremated and his ashes scattered there.  So Arya has nothing to work with vis-à-vis Cersei's children.

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Daenerys has given in to her advisers more often than not, and usually to her own detriment. 

Meeren would've been left in flames if Dany hadn't listened to Tyrion.

[RealReality]

I'd put my money on Arya having an oops baby before I'd put my money on bran ever having sex with anyone.

[tv-talk]

20 minutes ago, taanja said:

The "dragons" are fake fake fake. Don't waste your tears.

Many of us are watching NOT for the silly dragons and zombies-- but for the human characters and the Game of Thrones itself. << as in == who will win???? and who will die????

Fake animals and fake walking dead folk need not apply.

Great post and to that end...I think Dany and Drogon are goners. Would not surprise me at all if all the magic in the world is basically gone at the end, pretty typical for these medieval-europe-with-elves type fantasy series. There will be no more undead, no more dragons, and no more people impervious to fire. 

[Constantinople]

I wonder how the Stormlands, particularly the lords of the Stormlands, will take to Lord Gendry Baratheon

The proof of Gendry's ancestry is paper thin to say the least. Aside from Gendry's say so, what other evidence is there? His mother is dead, Melisandre is dead, Stannis is dead, etc.

Plus, even if his ancestry was believed, that doesn't mean the lords of the Stormlands want to be ruled over by some gutter rat from Flea Bottom. Recall how often Davos told Stannis that Stannis's bannermen looked down on Davos for being the son of a crabber.

And I doubt the name Baratheon will have that much magic to it given how little the Stark name meant in the North when the Boltons took over

[QuinnM]

Just now, Constantinople said:

And I doubt the name Baratheon will have that much magic to it given how little the Stark name meant in the North when the Boltons took over

It got a real good look from Jaime when it was announced.  Kinda like wtf?

[Bryce Lynch]

46 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

So Jon got them to swear playing off his status as their brother when in fact he is not their brother. It's the truth--cousins are family--but not the whole truth. He induced their oath based on a lie of omission so they should not be bound by it.

They are first cousins, which makes them family. 

Plus, they were calling him their brother, specifically not half-brother or bastard brother, despite being under the old belief that he was Ned's bastard, and actually a half brother.  IOW, he was a "brother" to them, no matter what. 

[proserpina65]

23 minutes ago, taanja said:

The "dragons" are fake fake fake. Don't waste your tears.

Many of us are watching NOT for the silly dragons and zombies-- but for the human characters and the Game of Thrones itself. << as in == who will win???? and who will die????

Fake animals and fake walking dead folk need not apply.

For many of us, the dragons and the dire wolves are just as much characters on GOT as the humans.  And many of us are not watching for the game-playing in the south, and were much more interested in the North storyline; personally the survival of all humanity ranked much higher for me than who sits on that stupid throne.  The show has different things for different viewers.

I was much more upset by Rhaegal's death than I was Missandei's because I felt like Rhaegal was a more developed character.

[Bryce Lynch]

24 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Nothing in that scene implied that Jon had done anything of the sort.

Exactly.

And yet none of them said that they had spoken with their captains or checked on the state of their troops, so I'm not buying this.  Ymmv, as always.

Dany exposed Sansa's lie with her question. The others saw no need to embarrass Sansa further by harping on it.    

If any of them thought their troops were not prepared for battle they would have spoken up and said so.  

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

What bothers me about Sansa telling Tyrion is not so much that she is trying to undermine Dany, I mean why not that woman didnt even have a drink with anyone after the battle for the world, but rather that it doesnt appear she has any sort of plan in place other than poison the well and hope Dany dies but not Jon. I still cant see the logic in simply telling Tyrion and hoping that causes Dany to fail while somehow also ensuring Cersei is defeated. If she wanted to undermine Dany, the time to do it was at Winterfell amongst the North who would have INSTANTLY accepted Jon as King of the 7. Feels like poor writing to me.

Which is why I think she was struggling.. Almost resigned to just let It be ( at least for now while everyone was leaving)  but she saw tyrion's fear of Dany and she jumped on it... It can be self-serving and for the greater good at the same time.. If Dany didn't need to be adored by westeros the way she was by some on the other side of the narrows sea.. I think she wouldn't be so crabby... She'd understand that... Ok yes I helped stop  the AOTD but so did everyone else here.. House umber and house mormont are all but gone.. The karstarks lost who knows how many and their lady... And she's still the foreign daughter of the man who burned their former warden of the north and sister to the man who kidnapped and raped Lyanna and kicked off Robert's Rebellion... Its gonna take some time to even after the great war to warm up to her... But no.. Every thing is a slight  so she withdrew she smiles and speaks kindly until she decides you've disobeyed her and then the ice stare and terse words... That's what Arya sees.. That's why ( partly)  they don't trust her... She wants what she wants and they think in the end their poor love struck brother will pay a high price so she can get it

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I wonder how the Stormlands, particularly the lords of the Stormlands, will take to Lord Gendry Baratheon

The proof of Gendry's ancestry is paper thin to say the least. Aside from Gendry's say so, what other evidence is there? His mother is dead, Melisandre is dead, Stannis is dead, etc.

Plus, even if his ancestry was believed, that doesn't mean the lords of the Stormlands want to be ruled over by some gutter rat from Flea Bottom. Recall how often Davos told Stannis that Stannis's bannermen looked down on Davos for being the son of a crabber.

And I doubt the name Baratheon will have that much magic to it given how little the Stark name meant in the North when the Boltons took over

The monarch can legitimize anyone he/she wants - that's how Ramsay Snow became Ramsay Bolton.  Now, that doesn't mean whomever is left in control in the Stormlands has to be happy about it, but it doesn't actually require proof of ancestry.  "The Queen says so" is good enough, officially anyway.

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Dany exposed Sansa's lie with her question. The others saw no need to embarrass Sansa further by harping on it.    

If any of them thought their troops were not prepared for battle they would have spoken up and said so.  

We will have to agree to disagree about this, because I don't think what Sansa said was a lie, and I think Dany absolutely was wrong.

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I wonder how the Stormlands, particularly the lords of the Stormlands, will take to Lord Gendry Baratheon

The proof of Gendry's ancestry is paper thin to say the least. Aside from Gendry's say so, what other evidence is there? His mother is dead, Melisandre is dead, Stannis is dead, etc.

Plus, even if his ancestry was believed, that doesn't mean the lords of the Stormlands want to be ruled over by some gutter rat from Flea Bottom. Recall how often Davos told Stannis that Stannis's bannermen looked down on Davos for being the son of a crabber.

And I doubt the name Baratheon will have that much magic to it given how little the Stark name meant in the North when the Boltons took over

I think that scene with Bronn where he explains that all Lords at one time started as cutthroats who killed some people and were made Lords, and then killed more people, and were made bigger Lords, and then killed even more people and were made Kings was placed there for this very reason.  So, sure, if there are any Lords of the Stormlands left alive, they might look at Lord Gendry Baratheon askance at first, but it's not like past Lords were all tea and biscuits.  They became "gentrified" over time.  Gendry has some cred for helping to save the world, and it's not unheard of to be awarded lands for fighting for the winner.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I wonder how the Stormlands, particularly the lords of the Stormlands, will take to Lord Gendry Baratheon

The proof of Gendry's ancestry is paper thin to say the least. Aside from Gendry's say so, what other evidence is there? His mother is dead, Melisandre is dead, Stannis is dead, etc.

Plus, even if his ancestry was believed, that doesn't mean the lords of the Stormlands want to be ruled over by some gutter rat from Flea Bottom. Recall how often Davos told Stannis that Stannis's bannermen looked down on Davos for being the son of a crabber.

And I doubt the name Baratheon will have that much magic to it given how little the Stark name meant in the North when the Boltons took over

If Dany or Jon is on the throne to back up Gendry's title, the Stormlands lords will fall in line. It sounds like the position has been vacant, so its not like they would be displacing anyone.

Davos knows he is Robert's bastard as does Arya, based upon the Gold Cloaks bringing a warrant and trying to seize him on the Kings Road.  Hot Pie was also a witness to that, as was Jaquen H'agar, for whatever that is worth.   I'm not sure if any of the BWOB guys who saw Mellisandre take him are still alive or not, but if they are they would also be witnesses.

I imagne Varys also knew if Ned, Jon Arryn, LF, Joffrey and Cersei all know.  I guess Cersei could also vouch for him. :)

[QuinnM]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Dany or Jon is on the throne to back up Gendry's title, the Stormlands lords will fall in line. It sounds like the position has been vacant, so its not like they would be displacing anyone.

Jaime as well, remember he sent the Goldcloaks to kill all the bastards.  This was for Cersei.  The bastards could usurp her children since her children were not Barathions.  I chuckled when he looked shocked that he missed one.

[Uncle JUICE]

4 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Jaime as well, remember he sent the Goldcloaks to kill all the bastards.  This was for Cersei.  The bastards could usurp her children since her children were not Barathions.  I chuckled when he looked shocked that he missed one.

In the show the gold cloaks are acting at Joffrey's order. Tyrion talks with Cersei and figures out she did not know, I thought. 

Fuck that bronn scene btw. 

[UNOSEZ]

In regards to Sansa and  The question... The scene hit me that Sansa was surprised that Dany was ready to move already.. As I was... I fully expected the show to do a lil 2 months later type deal.. So when she said they were on the move now she just asked the question.. I'm sure part of it is because she doesn't trust Dany and her rushing off is more proof that Dany's single- minded quest for the throne is gonna get her brother and other men of the north killed

Edited May 8, 2019 by UNOSEZ

[MrWhyt]

2 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

In regards to Sansa and  The question... The scene hit me that Sansa was surprised that Dany was ready to move already.. As I was I fully expected the show to do a lil 2 months lat

yes the timeline is a bit unclear (as usual on this show) but it seems like they were on the march within a week of taking 50% losses.

[nodorothyparker]

5 hours ago, QuinnM said:

Jaime as well, remember he sent the Goldcloaks to kill all the bastards.  This was for Cersei.  The bastards could usurp her children since her children were not Barathions.  I chuckled when he looked shocked that he missed one.

That was Joffrey.  Jaime was already a prisoner of the Starks when all of that took place.  He was well aware that Robert got around.

Brienne's father is a Stormlord and Davos was raised up to a position of authority among them by Stannis.  Both characters entered the story as part of the Renly vs. Stannis drama over who got the Stormlands bannermen.  Neither of them seemed at all bothered by this, so whoever else is left in the Stormlands will probably fall in line as well.  That's IF the queen who named him lord sits on the throne.  If Cersei wins, he's still just a bastard boy they missed.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

In the show the gold cloaks are acting at Joffrey's order. Tyrion talks with Cersei and figures out she did not know, I thought. 

Fuck that bronn scene btw. 

Any of the Gold Cloaks involved in the bastard hunt would also know Gendry was Bobby B's Bastard, if they are still alive.   

Way more than 8 people know, so clearly it is "information". :)

[nodorothyparker]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Any of the Gold Cloaks involved in the bastard hunt would also know Gendry was Bobby B's Bastard, if they are still alive.   

They would know he was on a list of children to be killed.  It seems doubtful Joffrey as king would have spelled out why, although again it was hardly a secret that Robert got around a lot.  Some might have guessed from that.

[Affogato]

39 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

It got a real good look from Jaime when it was announced.  Kinda like wtf?

A lot os effort was made to kill all the Baratheon bastards. 

[Drogo]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Dany or Jon is on the throne to back up Gendry's title, the Stormlands lords will fall in line. It sounds like the position has been vacant, so its not like they would be displacing anyone.

Davos knows he is Robert's bastard as does Arya, based upon the Gold Cloaks bringing a warrant and trying to seize him on the Kings Road.

And Davos can confirm that the same Red Priestess who helped save Westeros identified him as Robert's son.

[SueB]

51 minutes ago, Nashville said:

I took the episode’s title as a simple statement of fact: the Stark name dies with this generation...

• Any children Jon fathers would be raised under the name Snow if he keeps his secret, or Targaryen if he doesn’t; either way, they won’t be named Stark.
• If Sansa bears any children they’ll carry their father’s last name if borne in wedlock, or Snow if not.
• Ditto Arya - not to mention, the possibility of Arya bearing any children at all is far more remote a possibility.

...so unless (a) Bran’s paralysis doesn’t extend to ALL areas below the waist AND (b) Mr. 3ER can develop a *little* more personality than a dinner plate - enough to engage some willing (or desperate) female to the point of marriage, anyway - then the Stark name dies with this crew.

I agree that this was also the point of the title.  Perhaps it was used at this point because now all the Starks knew it.  Before they may have held hope a child of Jon’s would bear the Stark name.  

One possibility:

- If Sansa doesn’t remarry, then she could adopt a child (likely male) and raise him as a Stark, giving him the name.