S02.E13: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow

[rmontro]

58 minutes ago, Dobian said:

She obviously was wearing a wig that was softer and younger looking, and they did her makeup different too, especially her eyes and eyebrows, which gave her a softer look.  Some of the clothes she wore also had a slimming effect.  No CGI there.

I respect the opinion of y'all who don't think there was any CGI on young Kelly.  But knowing that this de-aging technology exists, and that it has become more common in use, I am not going to be convinced that there were no digital effects used on her until I hear some sort of "official" word on the matter.  To me, it didn't look like she had thicker makeup, it looked like her skin was smoother.

I read someone saying on another board that even her teeth looked different (there would be seven years of being worn down there), and that they thought she wore some sort of dental prosthetic.  Amazing attention to detail if that's true. 

[Dobian]

I was looking at her teeth coincidentally and they were identical.  I think people see what they want to see.  Really, you want to make 69 year old Kurt Russell look like he's 30, you do CGI.  But to make a 37 year old woman look like she's 30, you do a little hair and makeup.  It's a lot cheaper than CGI with the same result.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Dobian

[Bort]

Yeah, I really don’t think anyone is wasting thousands of dollars on CGI when a seven dollar makeup jar does the same thing.

[ketose]

4 hours ago, Dobian said:

Orphan Black was such a great show.  I do think the Orville did a good job of putting the same actress in scenes with two characters as well.

Since this time travel story involves time travel to the future, the show avoids all the paradox issues that happen when you go backwards in time.  If past Kelly did end up changing the future, it's just a different future.  I'm really looking forward to seeing how it turns out next week.  I'm wondering if the show is bold enough to make the changes permanent.  That would be pretty wild.

I think the last big history change I've seen that wasn't reset was on Eureka.

[shapeshifter]

On April 19, 2019 at 3:39 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I thought Adrianne Palicki did a good job making Younger Kelly different from Original Kelly, but in a way where one can believe that they are the same person, but just from different time periods.  Also thought the show did a good job with how seamless they were with having both characters in the same scenes.  Granted, I think Orphan Black will always be the pinnacle when it comes to pulling it off and making it feel so real, but there were moments or two here where I briefly forgot both characters were being played by the same actress.

I wonder if Adrianne Palicki has had time to see Tatiana Maslany in Orphan Black, and/or if the CGI people working on The Orville studied it, because, now that you mention it, @thuganomics85, this was the most well done doppelganger representation I've seen since OB.

Maybe it's because I'm old enough to have watched The Patty Duke Show (identical cousins) and other dual roles of the 60s accomplished with only a body double seen from the back and split screens, that when Present Kelly and Younger Kelly first met and circled each other, I was impressed. And then, like y'all have said upthread, Adrianne did an admirable job of distinguishing the two versions of her character while keeping it believable.

Edited April 20, 2019 by shapeshifter
Typo etc.

[Mr. Sparkle]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe it's because I'm old enough to have watched The Patty Duke Show (identical cousins) 

Thanks. I'll have that song in my head all day. 😆

[Bort]

7 hours ago, ketose said:

I think the last big history change I've seen that wasn't reset was on Eureka.

Timeline did it a couple times. The main character’s sister getting erased in the pilot was a driving plot of the show. And they used the plot device again a season later to erase a character that wasn’t working out.

[GustavMahler]

I found most of this episode extremely cringe worthy. Ed was basically trying to extort Kelly into reviving their relationship by using her younger self as a pawn, which I found disturbing. He has moments that make him quite unlikable and this was one of them for me. But, the ending was good so we shall see how this plays out......

[Orbert]

I sympathized with Ed.  He still loves Kelly, he knows he screwed up, and he still would like to try again, then suddenly here's this younger, hotter Kelly from the past, exactly as he remembers her, and best of all, she wants him.  I completely understand wanting to... ahem... *take advantage* of that.  The heart wants what the heart wants, but so do other parts of your body.

Once they were in his bed, they called it off, and it was the right decision.  I'm just not sure whose decision it was because I had trouble following the dialogue there.

Bortus and Klyden dancing was awesome.  I think we're supposed to assume that they're like most married couples, human or otherwise.  Most of the time, they're fine, they do things together, they live their lives.  It's just that their marital issues (and other issues) have driven too many episodes so it kinda seems like all they do is fight and occassionally try to stab each other.  But the other 95% of the time, they're fine.  Or maybe because of their all-male culture in which, let's be honest, *everyone* is arrogant and aggressive and overly blunt, that we humans just don't get it, but they really are the average Moclan couple.  They dance, smoke cigarettes when they can get them, and hang out at home playing that "hot potato" game that stabs your hand if you're caught with it.

[AnimeMania]

10 hours ago, ketose said:

I think the last big history change I've seen that wasn't reset was on Eureka.

You must not watch "The Flash" they are constantly changing history.

[ketose]

57 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

You must not watch "The Flash" they are constantly changing history.

I should have been more clear that I mean history changes with consequences. When Barry did the Flashpoint thing, most of it was reset. Even the thing with Cisco's brother was quickly ignored. Legends of Tomorrow constantly changes history, but it rarely has an impact on the main cast, which is similar to Timeless.

[kay1864]

Those of you that have better memories (or Google skills) than I:  what happened with Ed and Kelly's marriage, other than the (pheromone-induced?) cheating by Kelly?  Was it on the rocks before then, or was that incident alone a deal-breaker (understandably) for Ed?

If the latter...it doesn't make sense for young Kelly to turn Ed down for a second date.

[Bort]

Just now, kay1864 said:

Those of you that have better memories (or Google skills) than I:  what happened with Ed and Kelly's marriage, other than the (pheromone-induced?) cheating by Kelly?  Was it on the rocks before then, or was that incident alone a deal-breaker (understandably) for Ed?

If the latter...it doesn't make sense for young Kelly to turn Ed down for a second date.

It was on the rocks before then. Apparently, Ed was something of a neglectful workaholic.

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 8:02 AM, Chaos Theory said:

It’s  time travel.  No one understands it.  The show could do almost anything with Ed and Kelly at this point and it would be not wrong.

I did like that line about no one getting an "A" in time travel class b/c it's impossible to understand.

[ketose]

3 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Those of you that have better memories (or Google skills) than I:  what happened with Ed and Kelly's marriage, other than the (pheromone-induced?) cheating by Kelly?  Was it on the rocks before then, or was that incident alone a deal-breaker (understandably) for Ed?

If the latter...it doesn't make sense for young Kelly to turn Ed down for a second date.

The pilot began with Ed returning from work and finding Kelly in bed with Darulio. Later, we found out that Ed was working long hours trying to make captain. When he found out about Kelly, he slacked off and got help from Kelly (without his knowledge) to get a command years later.

As for Young Kelly, my theory is that when she came back, she didn't have her memories about the Orville, but she felt a residual sadness over Ed's remarks about hurting her over the next 5 years and that might be why seeing Young Ed made her not want to date him again.

[aemom]

This was a combination of the two-Riker episode with a dash of "Crusher is stuck in a warp bubble" - what Kelly was thinking at that moment is the Kelly that appeared. 

It was well done and it was nice to see Klyden and Bortus having fun, though I just don't see how that marriage works in the long run.

The video game with Ed and Gordon was hilarious and vaguely familiar to how these games go down in our house when hubby can't get the game to do what he wants.

The ending was very unexpected, and I am dying to see if there are any future ramifications to what happened. 

I really don't think that Younger Kelly was a Kaylon plant because:

a) they already did that plotline with the Krill.

b) she really did go back in time, which wouldn't have happened if she was a plant.

[AnimeMania]

52 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

If the latter...it doesn't make sense for young Kelly to turn Ed down for a second date.

If it wasn't a Kaylon plot and she still has her memories, I think all the things she said to future Kelly were true and she believes future Kelly is a huge disappointment and she does plan to make the same mistakes.

[marinw]

As much as I enjoyed the sight of the senior staff rushing to the Bridge in their PJ’s, doesn’t the Orville have a night-shift crew? Or does the ship have an autopilot?

Edited April 20, 2019 by marinw

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, aemom said:

I really don't think that Younger Kelly was a Kaylon plant because:

a) they already did that plotline with the Krill.

b) she really did go back in time, which wouldn't have happened if she was a plant.

And I think they kind of "hung a lampshade on it" with this line of Ed's about wanting to date Younger Kelly: "And truthfully, I'd really just like to date somebody who's not a Krill."
But if she was a Kaylon and not a Krill, maybe the lampshade dialog doesn't work?
Or maybe it was Chekhov's "not a Krill?"
Anyway, it didn't occur to me that she was anything other than time traveled Kelly until I read it here.

[Orbert]

Same here. There *might* be something going on with the Kaylon, but I really thought that the Kaylon ships flying by were just to remind us that they're out there and are now our enemies.  But they did come back, which I didn't expect after the Orville had ditched them once, so maybe there's something there after all.

I know the rings around that planet looked really cool, but whenever I see artist's "imaginings" of planets that include rings intersecting or whatever, it bugs me because it defies what we know and understand about rings.  Saturn's rings are nearly two-dimensional.  They exist in a single plane which includes Saturn's equator.  They are nearly invisible when viewed edge-on.  It would take some really bizarre gravitational forces to create rings orbiting a planet on different planes.

But it was pretty cool how the Orville hid amongst the ice crystals, and Young Kelly was the one who thought of it.

[SimoneS]

14 minutes ago, Orbert said:

I know the rings around that planet looked really cool, but whenever I see artist's "imaginings" of planets that include rings intersecting or whatever, it bugs me because it defies what we know and understand about rings.  Saturn's rings are nearly two-dimensional.  They exist in a single plane which includes Saturn's equator.  They are nearly invisible when viewed edge-on.  It would take some really bizarre gravitational forces to create rings orbiting a planet on different planes.

You should tweet Seth McFarlane about this. He does like to get the science correct mostly. Maybe he responds.

[ketose]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

As much as I enjoyed the sight of the senior staff rushing to the Bridge in their PJ’s, doesn’t the Orville have a night-shift crew? Or does the ship have an autopilot?

I assume if it's important, senior staff needs to report. I think they at least changed during Next Generation, because Picard used to sleep in a skimpy nightgown.

[The Kings Foot]

regarding making Kelly seem younger, remember it works the other way too.  Putting bulkier clothes on present day Kelly to make her seem "thicker". Giving her slightly harsher makeup.  Even posture works.   Older Kelly  was standing more rigidly and tended to raise her chin more.

[legaleagle53]

On 4/18/2019 at 7:49 PM, shapeshifter said:

Please. Make it so.

It was a very well-developed time travel story within a single episode.
The only "huh?" moment for me was when young Kelly perked up and said that the mind wipe and travel back 7 years had obviously worked because they were all there. 
Um. Not necessarily, young Kelly [says old mom shapeshifter].
 

That's not what young Kelly said. She said that the mindwipe obviously worked because it was why the Kelly of 2420 didn't remember traveling from 2413 to 2420 and encountering the Kelly and Ed of that era or any of the other crew aboard the Orville.

[ganesh]

19 hours ago, ketose said:

I think the last big history change I've seen that wasn't reset was on Eureka.

Highly, highly underrated. They did a great job with the time travel. 

I haven't seen any previews for next week because I like to stay unspoiled, so I don't know if this is a two parter. After watching last night, I'm going with a separate timeline being created. I think changing the 'future' doesn't really work, tv wise. 

If that's the case, again tv wise, it would necessitate that 'other timeline Kelly' shows up at some point in the Orville-present to save the say. Or that's what I'd like to see. 

Wait, is the season over?

[meatball77]

5 hours ago, ketose said:

I assume if it's important, senior staff needs to report. I think they at least changed during Next Generation, because Picard used to sleep in a skimpy nightgown.

He did have that tiny romper with the open front he would wear.  Janeway wore that silk slinky nightgown.
It was an important enough situation that everyone needed to report and it was a nice giggle seeing everyone on the bridge in their robes.  I wonder what Bortus wears to bed?

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, meatball77 said:

He did have that tiny romper with the open front he would wear.  Janeway wore that silk slinky nightgown.
It was an important enough situation that everyone needed to report and it was a nice giggle seeing everyone on the bridge in their robes.  I wonder what Bortus wears to bed?

We've seen Bortus and Klyden both in bed before.  They wear standard-issue civilian night attire (i.e., pajamas), the same as the other crew members do. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen any male crew members wearing just briefs to bed -- or anyone sleeping in the nude, for that matter!

Edited April 21, 2019 by legaleagle53

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, ganesh said:

. . . I haven't seen any previews for next week because I like to stay unspoiled . . .

Wait, is the season over?

There is at least one more episode next week. 🤐

[legaleagle53]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

There is at least one more episode next week. 🤐

I'm pretty sure that IS the season finale.  Only 14 episodes were planned for this season.

[Yeah No]

On 4/19/2019 at 2:00 AM, Shimmergloom said:

Yeah, I agree.  Whether she remembered or not(and it seems she did) this Kelly is in an alternate timeline, where she and Ed never got together. 

Or did they?  We saw young Kelly turn him down for a second date but maybe he was persistent and got her to change her mind later on - perhaps he had to work hard or wait until he ran into her again later on to finally get her to go out with him again.  They may have ended up getting married but their relationship may have been a little different.  Young Kelly may have learned from her Orville experience (either consciously or subconsciously) to be more cautious and serious about her future.  He on the other hand, may have learned to appreciate her a little more through having to work to get her interested in him.  So he may never have neglected her if he saw her as the one that almost got away.  It would have changed the dynamic in their relationship completely.  It may actually turn out that the two of them never got divorced and are still married.  Or perhaps after young Kelly rejected him they never dated but met again when Ed was coming back to the Orville and their relationship began again at that time.  Which would make things interesting for us, the audience. 

All of this might have been part of the young Kelly's goal in the end - One of the things she criticized about older Kelly is not making her relationship work or something to that effect.  Young Kelly using her Orville lesson to go back to the past to make different choices might actually be the thing that ultimately makes their relationship work even if it was delayed by several years.  And I do agree with those that think that endgame for Seth WRT him and Kelly is to get them back together romantically.  This would be a creative way to get them back together and not too annoying if the future wasn't changed all that much except for that.  And it still wouldn't mean that they couldn't end up having problems later on, of course, especially if or when they find out what happened in the original time line, that they got married then divorced.

If the show just dropped any change in the future it wouldn't be as interesting, IMO.  It would be harder to handle such a change without screwing up the show completely, though.  It will be fascinating to see how they handle this.  Who knows, they may go for another TNG-like episode where in the next episode older Kelly realizes she remembers something is off before anything happens, and they find a way to repair the problem so that the young Kelly never appears in the first place.  So things with the time line will go back to the way they were supposed to be originally, like in the episode, "Cause and Effect".  Only this time the only person who will remember the way things got off track will be Isaac instead of Data. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Yeah No

[WAnglais1]

I've grown to like this show over this season. 

ST:TOS used several quotes from the "Scottish Tragedy" as episode titles. And this one was another. 

Also, in Ed's office, one of the wall hangings is the album cover for "Escape" by Journey. I laughed when I realized that. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Only this time the only person who will remember the way things got off track will be Isaac instead of Data

Why?
On Stargate SG1, T'ealc was the only one who remembered the pre-time change-back because his species lives for hundreds of years, so he volunteered to fix the time wrinkle—which involved something like staying behind to throw a switch to undo the change.

Edited April 21, 2019 by shapeshifter

[DarkRaichu]

This is  the best sh!t on free TV, bar none !!!!  Even a setup episode like this is so much better than most stuffs on TV...

I hate time travel stories, but this show is not shy about changing things as repercussions of time travel.  It looks like the finale is going to be a reset button of some sort. 
This is a setup episode where all characters play parts in the story: Doc with old!Kelly, Gordon with Ed, Lamarr and Isaac, and Talla with young!Kelly

I was preparing for a version of Thomas Riker (TNG & DS9, look it up), but damn that ending... 

And yes, Ed should have known better than trying to have a relationship with young Kelly.  His last apology (5 months gone, etc etc) must be another reason for young!Kelly to reject Ed in the past.

That opening scene was so TNG the way it was shot, I was half hoping they would show us 6 people playing poker next.  That is how you do an homage !!!!

And the way they hid from Keylon, bonus scifi points !!!

"You just called me old" lol!

Bortus & Klyden mating dance.. So hilarious!!!

"Bathroom is that way" 😄 😄 😄

Edited April 21, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[ketose]

I really hope Fox is waiting for the finale or upfronts to announce the Orville's renewal for dramatic effect. Star Trek Discovery is renewed and honestly, it's trash.

Seth MacFarlane created and maintained a scifi show that has story arcs, character development and science that makes sense (at least within the confines of their universe). The humor is like he said, icing on the cake. One of the funny parts of the show is when they talk about bathrooms because no one ever had to go on TOS.

[AnimeMania]

I have a question not related to this episode but it always bugged me. Whenever they show a window, the stars are shooting by really fast (the ones closest at least). I know the answer is determined by how fast the ship is actually traveling before a reasonable answer can be given, but I really don't think it would look like that, with the stars whizzing by.

[ganesh]

Well, I hope we don't have to wait 3 more years for a third season. 

[Quickbeam]

I really enjoyed this episode but I hated Past Kelly’s wig. A lot. And at the end I like some upthread felt she returned to her time with her memories intact. 

This is the best show on TV right now. 

[tennisgurl]

So, how about that space time continuum, huh? Did the memory wipe only work on a surface level, but future Kelly made so much of an impression on past Kelly that she subconsciously wanted to avoid Ed? Will this mess things up in future episodes? 

Poor Kelly, its like a Facebook timeline has suddenly gained sentience, is following you around at work, and is pretty judgy. I thought this was a good Kelly episode, and AP did a great job at playing both older and younger Kelly and making them distinct, but still seeming like the same person, just at different points in her life. I thought that younger Kelly was pretty harsh on older Kelly (sorry, past and future Kelly!), but I was glad they made peace. Future Kelly did help save the Union as well as several other people and places by now, thats certainly not nothing. 

Yeah, Ed dating younger Kelly was...super weird.  

Lots of good, interesting character work this week, but the highlight was absolutely Bortus and Klyden getting down at the dance floor and having a grand old time. 

[shapeshifter]

48 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Well, I hope we don't have to wait 3 more years for a third season. 

Nah, this isn't one of those shows.
If nothing else, Seth is a prolific producer.
No Sistine Chapel ceiling mural painting time-frames for him
(and no time travel puns intended).
  
  

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, how about that space time continuum, huh?

Hee.
I'm going to have to find some place to quote this.
Great post altogether, @tennisgurl.

[Snapdragon]

I enjoyed the episode overall (especially the club scene with the Moclan dancing) and am looking forward to what I'm hoping is going to end up being a parallel dimension story arc.  I do have one complaint though.  They should have made "young Kelly" 12-15 years younger, instead of 7.  If the actors are playing their real ages, that would mean that "young Kelly" was in her late twenties, possibly even 30.  While people do change over time, by your late twenties/early thirties you're very much an adult, so it shouldn't have been that big a personality change.  I felt that "young Kelly" was acting more like a 22-25 year old would act, what with the clubbing scene and having different life expectations than present day Kelly.  Also, I had always thought that Ed and Kelly were together about a decade or so, not five years.  Their marriage only lasting 3-4 years (because I assume they dated for a year or two first) changes their romance from something that slowly went wrong over time into something that neither of them put any effort into to begin with.  And honestly, if their relationship is something that soured so quickly, then why is Ed putting so much effort into trying to get it back?  

[rmontro]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:19 PM, Dobian said:

But to make a 37 year old woman look like she's 30, you do a little hair and makeup.  It's a lot cheaper than CGI with the same result.

This is the only article I could find so far that addresses the question at all, but according to it there was some CGI.  A quote:

"With the assistance of just a tiny bit of CGI de-ageing, the split screen performance and production is handled very well. "

https://www.space.com/the-orville-season-2-episode-13.html

[tv-talk]

On 4/19/2019 at 12:32 AM, SmithW6079 said:

Did they somehow do some type of Marvel de-aging CGI special effects on young Kelly?  I swore she actually looked slimmer.

My first thought seeing her was "If they try and do Seth younger it's going to be awful and hilarious.

At first didnt like this episode because I generally am a huge fan of the amount of romantic storylines in the show and having 2 Kelly's to watch was almost too distracting- what a gorgeous woman. However by the end it had turned into a great episode in a way that McFarlane does well, having interpersonal issues between crew become part of a much larger problem. Loved the very end, so many ways they can go with that, I'm not even sure it will be addressed next week- they may save it for later, though my guess is next week Kelly will be the captain of the ship!

Ok so Ed would 100% have hooked up with young Kelly and gone from there. 120%. It's not like he was 50yrs old and a 22yr old showed up wanting to redo his bad marriage. It's just 7yrs and he is so over-the-top smitten with "older" Kelly that there I'm just not buying he wouldnt have slept with her. Also they glossed over fact that the pheromones are why Kelly cheated on him, that bit of info changes everything and you can see why Ed, young Kelly, and older Kelly might all think maybe things could have worked out. 

So basically Isaac's return to the show is that he turns the Orville into a TARDIS. Um, ok. If they do have to "fix" something young Kelly changes and that's how they do it...large can of worms. Overall I'm actually hoping the season finale is not a time-travel scenario and that the last scene with young Kelly was simply to make for a great ending ie did she know something or not?

9 hours ago, ketose said:

Star Trek Discovery is renewed and honestly, it's trash.

That show is an absolute abomination and if I didnt know better would say is an intentional insult to long-time ST fans.

[macrone]

15 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

That show is an absolute abomination and if I didnt know better would say is an intentional insult to long-time ST fans.

It's some other franchise wearing Federation uniforms.

[AdorkableWitch]

20 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

We've seen Bortus and Klyden both in bed before.  They wear standard-issue civilian night attire (i.e., pajamas), the same as the other crew members do. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen any male crew members wearing just briefs to bed -- or anyone sleeping in the nude, for that matter!

If I were on a starship I'd wear pajamas. The chances of things going pear shaped is high. 

[Driad]

1 hour ago, AdorkableWitch said:

If I were on a starship I'd wear pajamas. The chances of things going pear shaped is high.

Kirk went pear shaped but Picard didn't.  Ed Mercer does not seem to be so far.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, tv-talk said:

So basically Isaac's return to the show is that he turns the Orville into a TARDIS. Um, ok. If they do have to "fix" something young Kelly changes and that's how they do it...large can of worms.

It does look bad for Isaac that his first project we see after the Kaylon mess is him getting involved with circumstances that mess up the timeline.  And the fact that this was the Borg's strategy in First Contact makes it all the more suspicious.

I'm not saying Isaac's a traitor, but it does raise some eyebrows (fascinating).

[North of Eden]

Ultimate money saving bottle show and one in he weakest episodes of the season.

[ketose]

Spoiler from next episode's description

Spoiler

"The crew is forced to cope with the aftermath of Kelly's unfortunate choice."

This might indicate that the prime timeline has changed and not an alternate one.

[Bort]

15 minutes ago, North of Eden said:

Ultimate money saving bottle show and one in he weakest episodes of the season.

Bottle show? I don’t agree. The CGI alone for the scenes where they were hiding in the ice rings, not to mention what was required for making two Kellies does not equal a bottle show.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

Kirk went pear shaped but Picard didn't.  Ed Mercer does not seem to be so far.

I think the poster meant if an emergency situation arose, not if a male crew member developed a "dad bod."

Edited April 22, 2019 by legaleagle53