S08.E01: Winterfell

[tennisgurl]

The Arya/Gendry reunion was so adorable, Arya was practically giggling with glee when she saw him! It would also be a nice way to tie things up. The whole backstory started with an attempted Stark/ Baratheon marriage, the show itself started with one, and then it can end with a newly legitimized Gendry and Arya finally getting it right! 

I hope that if Danny tries to start some shit about Jamie killing her dad, Sam will quietly but firmly cough somewhere in the corner. We can deal with all this killing of families later, when the ice zombies are dealt with! 

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, rozen said:

Sansa being snitty to Dany is a lazy writing decision, imo. One of many shortcuts they've used to build friction rather than letting it bubble up organically. You're right, all historical data suggests Sansa would never say something so stupid so publicly. It's just convenient for the "girl fight" angle the producers are pushing.

I have to say I am disappointed. I thought the rushing done in season 7 was necessary but they are doing it again and I am afraid it will ruin things. As others have mentioned a lot of lazy writing had to happen last night to accommodate the break neck speed. It is making characters come off poorly. 

[comanick]

7 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Its not. People die in war.  However, she made a big deal about breaking the wheel and being different.....but right now she is just more of the same.

So what. 

Back in like season 3 jorah and barristan were speaking to her on the road of punishment and jorah said "you will have blood on your hands before this thing is done" and she replied " the blood of my enemies, not innocents"

Was Randyl Tarly innocent? No, he was her enemy. He died. 

In a perfect world people would always be able to talk things out and there would be no war or real conflict. But this isnt a perfect world. Unfortunately in the entire history of our world and the GOT verse no king has become king by just "talking things out" . People had  to die in some form or fashion sadly. So to think that "breaking the wheel" somehow implies no one is gonna died is just naive.

But imo shes gone out of her way to not kill innocents in westeros. Considering the kind of power she has she could of taken kings landing day 1. Would other rulers even take the innocents live in consideration? Tywin sure didnt when he sacked king landing. The northern lords didnt when they followed right in behind them. Hers ancestor didnt when they roasted harrenhal. History considered, she doing the best she can without looking like the weakest powerful person ever. 

[Rambler]

I think the most valuable lesson to be learned from this episode is to never order three prostitutes at the same time because the two you aren't having sex with will inevitably start chatting about things you probably don't want to know about.

[Colorful Mess]

Westeros doesn't need more of the same though, at this point. Jon showed mercy to another non-kneeler, Mance, when he was being executed by fire. He also didnt force the wildlings (also prisoners like the Tarlys) to kneel to him. Dany has the same values as all the rest: might = right.  Dany thinks she has to be a tyrant - but people aren't having that. They're fed up.

[LadyChaos]

15 minutes ago, comanick said:

So what. 

Back in like season 3 jorah and barristan were speaking to her on the road of punishment and jorah said "you will have blood on your hands before this thing is done" and she replied " the blood of my enemies, not innocents"

Was Randyl Tarly innocent? No, he was her enemy. He died. 

In a perfect world people would always be able to talk things out and there would be no war or real conflict. But this isnt a perfect world. Unfortunately in the entire history of our world and the GOT verse no king has become king by just "talking things out" . People had  to die in some form or fashion sadly. So to think that "breaking the wheel" somehow implies no one is gonna died is just naive.

But imo shes gone out of her way to not kill innocents in westeros. Considering the kind of power she has she could of taken kings landing day 1. Would other rulers even take the innocents live in consideration? Tywin sure didnt when he sacked king landing. The northern lords didnt when they followed right in behind them. Hers ancestor didnt when they roasted harrenhal. History considered, she doing the best she can without looking like the weakest powerful person ever. 

She was going to do just that, burn KL to the ground...... until Tyrion told her that would leave her as nothing but the Queen of Ashes.....

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It remains to be seen what type of ruler she is.  But, I would call her a liberator more than a conqueror.

Who wins and writes the histories will determine which word the people will use when describing her era.

12 hours ago, Drogo said:

That bit about whether she was their Queen now because Jon really wanted to save the North or because he was in love with her was master class projection.  Clearly Baelish didn't ride the Knights of the Vale to her aid during the BotBastards because he thought Sansa would become a great leader, he did it because he was in love with her. 

Sansa's petty as hell.  Careful on that high horse gurl, cause there's dragons up in here now and they can get a lot higher.

Which gives Sansa even more reason to be wary of decisions made when "love" is involved. Baelish's brand of love included a fair bit of wanting to be the hidden power behind the throne.

8 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I had another thought.  I think maybe some of the problem is Jon's inability to grasp reality versus what he's used to.   He doesn't want to be a leader because of the position he held in his family.  He still sees Sansa as the nasty little sister who looks down on him and hears her concerns as insults, rather than receiving them as alternative perspective.  His reception of Arya shows me that he will struggle with understanding what she is now and what she's done.  He won't be able to wrap his head around Bran at all.

He seems to register only what HE has been through but not what the others have been through and how it has changed them.  Sansa was not only raped by the evil Bolton bastard, she spent years observing the machinations of KL.  She has a better take on Cersei than Tyrion.  Arya is able to move in and out of situations with stealth and efficiency.  Bran can see everything.

Jon has got to stop thinking of his siblings as who they were before everything went down.

Yes, Jon's still seeing his sisters based on who they were years ago - but to be fair, that's not exactly unusual when family members have been apart for a long time. Still, he does need to widen his tunnel vision.
 

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa spoke in a very disrespectful tone when she complained about not having planned to feed the troops and the dragons, in front a a hall full of people.  

I like Sansa, but she sounded like the snotty little girl who went off to King's Landing to marry her beloved Prince Joffrey.  

Eh, she sounded more like she was containing a lot of anger and frustration to me. It's also hard to be respectful when you don't have any respect.

[ParadoxLost]

27 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Bronn is a fun character but he has no moral compass. 

I don't think Bronn will succeed in killing Tyrion and Jamie.  I do expect that he'll try.  There are too many morally corrupt fun characters.  At some point, one of them is going to come to a bad end at the sword of someone we expected them not to actually betray.

38 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I don't know why Dany's execution of the Tarly's is supposed to be such a horrible thing.  She built up armies to back up her claim on Westeros, did anyone think she wouldn't use them?  We know how this world works, did anyone think the Iron Throne would change hands without some blood being shed?  The Tarly's were defeated in battle, but would not capitulate.  Even in our world, losing leaders are often executed.

I don't like that she's ignoring the optics on the dragons.

She should have been really sure that the Tarly's were uniformly reviled before burning them alive because of the Mad King.  That is what Tyrion had been trying to get across.  Nothing would have lessened it for Sam; but I think everyone else would have taken it better if she had used a different method.

I also don't like the smug satisfaction she takes that the Northern's that aren't smiling at her arrival are scared to death of the dragons.

 Dany making a snide remark to Sansa about dragons eating anything they want to rebut concerns about how everything was going to be fed was idiotic.  Because, honestly, legitimate concern and I latched right onto, so they are going to pick off the children.  

She really doesn't get how much people hate and fear her father and his dragons.  She needs to respond in a way that doesn't stoke those fears.

[tennisgurl]

Danny has pretty much always dealt with things in a very "Might Makes Right" kind of way, which makes sense considering who she was dealing with. The Dothraiki, who have a whole culture based around battle and pillage and fighting each other and everyone else they run into for supremacy, and then Slavers Bay, who...well they're called Slavers Bay, you kind of get what their deal is right away. She needed to be a hardass to get them to take her seriously, and use her dragons and armies and have a zero tolerance policy for bullshit. But now that she is finally in Westeroes, trying to get the throne back that her family lost, her "Bend the Knee or meet my dragons" policy is having some issues, mainly because she has to get people to think that this woman who they dont know, and knows little about them, is a good choice as an actual leader. She can certainly conquer, and she probably will, but whats next? We know things were a clusterfuck in Slavers Bay after she over through the old leaders, so what happens in Westeroes? It will probably be somewhat easier, as if they actually survive the winter and the White Walkers, they can kind of just go back to something close to business as usual, in theory, but in that case, its just going to be the same old thing as always. What does Danny really bring to the table at this point, after the ice zombies are gone? How will she make Westeroes any different than it ever was? Or if she does try to change things in ways that seem to be better, will she just create more instability? 

Just now, ParadoxLost said:

She really doesn't get how much people hate and fear her father and his dragons.  She needs to respond in a way that doesn't stoke those fears.

Yeah, she really needs to realize how much people hated and feared her family by the time her dad was all "burn them all" and was finally killed. Setting people on fire, even if its convenient, isnt great optics for the long lost daughter of the Mad King.

[Growsonwalls]

19 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Westeros doesn't need more of the same though, at this point. Jon showed mercy to another non-kneeler, Mance, when he was being executed by fire. He also didnt force the wildlings (also prisoners like the Tarlys) to kneel to him. Dany has the same values as all the rest: might = right.  Dany thinks she has to be a tyrant - but people aren't having that. They're fed up.

Agreed. Everyone was horrified when Cersei said "power is power" and displayed it in ruthless ways. I THINK the whole point of the series was/is (???) to finally find a ruler for Westeros that is also humane and wise. Dany has some good qualities. She has compassion for the downtrodden. She has shown mercy to people like Jorah. But i feel like those good qualities are fading, and her being the ultimate ruler would not be the kind of journey this TV series needs. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

This is my take. This episode was Dany and Jon/Dany’s apex... it’s all downhill from here.

My reasoning for that is that drama runs on reverses and this show runs its reverses almost like clockwork.

Take Jon for example, at first he's an outsider at home and so he goes and joins the Nights Watch. Over the course of the season he goes from hating it and not getting along with the other recruits to finding fellowship with his brothers when they stand together to remind him of his vows and together they range North to find Jon's missing uncle. So the reversal is that he goes from outsider to brother and from arriving at the Wall to leaving the Wall.

In season two the reversal is that he goes from Brother in the Night's Watch and by the end he's killed one of his own brothers and is entering the Wildling camp under cover.

In season three he goes from convincing the Wildling's he one of them and ends it escaping back to the Nights Watch with news of the invasion.

In season four he goes from distrusted outsider who broke all the rules and whose warnings are doubted by those in charge and by the end of the season he's proven himself the true leader of the Nights Watch.

In season five he goes from beloved Lord Commander of his men to a dangerous traitor that some of them murder "for the good of the Watch."

In season six he goes from a man traumatized by his own murder and not wanting to lead anyone to re-embracing life and becoming King in the North.

In season seven he goes from King in the North home in Winterfell to being pulled away and falling for and bending the knee to Dany.

So this season began with Jon and Dany side-by-side and as happy as one could expect given the circumstances and Jon on a bit of the outs with his family and the North. Dany is also at the peak of her power while the North doesn’t even know what to call Jon right now.

The logical reversal will be Jon reconnects to his family while falling out with Dany possibily to the point of being on opposing sides.

Maybe he just parleys his true parentage and claim to Throne to regain the North’s independence. Maybe a Faceless Girl, the Three Eyed Raven (who may or may not be strong enough to warg a dragon) and a competent manager will prove decisive in actually beating her.

I don’t know the specifics, I just know the reversals are coming because they’ve already started. They showed us Jon and Dany at peak happiness on dragonback together right before gut-punching Jon with his true parentage and dropping anvils about whether she’d be willing to give up her claim to the throne.

It only gets worse for them from here because that’s how narrative structure goes.

I think so too. The entire episode basically foreshadowed the relationship's demise from Varys' "It never lasts" comment to Arya reminding Jon not to forget about his family to the saccharine-sweet waterfall make-out scene. With only six episodes, whatever turning point happens, needs to happen fast. The stage has been set.

[comanick]

29 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

No, she can't. The Long Night isn't just a Westerosi myth; every culture has its own variation of it. Melisandre's been talking about it since the moment she was introduced and she's from Ashai. The Night King brings eternal darkness with him. Sooner or later, it will reach Essos as well, and considering the NK has a dragon, it should take him no time to wreak havoc over there with Westeros' population as his foot soldiers. There is no escape for anyone. Dany could fly away on her dragons but she'd just be postponing her own death by a few months.

Dany owned slaves in the first season. Irri, Doreah and Jiqui(?) weren't her besties, they were slaves. The woman Dany burned alive for killing her slaver husband? A slave. The villagers her husband pillaged so she could get her throne? They became slaves. She sent Doreah, a woman who'd been forced into sex slavery as a child, to sleep with Xaro and spy on him. She initially went to Astapor to buy a slave army despite seeing firsthand how people were forced into slavery in season one. Jorah, her beloved bear, sold slaves to buy pretty things for his wife. Daario gladly worked for slavers for the right money. Her Dothraki? Slavers. 

If the idea is that everyone who was once a slaver deserves to die a slow and excruciating death because "once a slaver always a slaver", then there'd only be dragons and Unsullied left in Dany's army. No Dany or Jorah either. But different rules for different folks. 

Let me preface this by sayin im not trying to advocate dany being the perfect person/ruler cause shes not. That said: 

Mistake me if im wrong but i didnt know that Dothraki women "owned" anything. Considering dothraki women are pretty much shown to have zero power, anything they have would belong to their husband. But yes, i believe viserys purchased those slaves. But from very early in season 1 didnt dany make it quite obvious she didnt like slavery. Did she have the power to stop her slaver husband back then? Did she have the power to stop the dothraki from slaving back then? No, but i think its been implied from then and throughout the series that if she could she would. 

She never intended on buying the unsullied cause she came there knowing she didnt have enough money to do so. Technically she stole them and immediately after freed them. 

Jorah at the time of their intro didnt own slaves and seem genuinely remorseful about what he did in the past. 

Daario currently works for dany and i doubt he will be working for any slavers inthe future being he swore an oath to dany and oaths are supposedly forever. 

Im pretty sure the dothraki as a whole are not doing any more slaving either. 

Please do not try to twist my words. I never said or  implied "once a slaver always a slavery". Because people can change and learn the errors of their ways and they should be commended for that. But hizdahr and his father were not ex slavers looking for redemption were they? They were current slavers who never changed their ways and had no plans of doing so. If they could have killed her and gone about their ways they would. I will sympathize with their death in the sense that I dont really wanna see anyone die but im not gonna act like the world is now worst off cause their gone and villify dany cause shes the one that did it. 

[STRIDER1]

22 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Along with Cersei's elephants, they couldn't afford the CGI for Ghost after Jonny boy went on his dragon thrill-ride to show his aunty where he used to hunt.

Yeah the show seems to be cutting production costs lately IMO. since the actors/actresses are being paid PER episode, why else would they have suddenly decided to scale back the # of episodes per season the past 2 seasons?

Season 1 - 10 episodes

Season 2 - 10 episodes

Season 3 - 10 episodes

Season 4 - 10 episodes

Season 5 - 10 episodes

Season 6 - 10 episodes 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - cheapness started here lol

Season 7 - 7 episodes (very meh)

Season 8 - 6 episodes (super lame)

[Mya Stone]

Oh hai 

[Wendy]

4 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I hope Jon remembers the advice he gave Theon.

Jon is a Stark and a Targaeryen, he doesn't have to choose.

It might be a little different though. 

Theon lived with the Starks for 10 years, Jon has just heard the news of his father. 

I would say at this point Jon probably is leaning towards his Stark heritage, which is not to tell that he won't embrace his Targaryen roots later on, right now it does seem too rushed.

[Lemuria]

10 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

That is much wiser than blowing into town with your show of force expecting these folks to give her respect because, well she's entitled to it.

The way Sansa felt that she was entitled to the Northerners' loyalty despite the betrayal they felt by her family?  In some ways, Sansa comes from an even more entitled background, since until she came to KL, she was surrounded by privilege and a loving family.  Dany spent that time an impoverished fugitive.

Both have a sense of entitlement and both have demonstrated an ability to be ruthless and not always nice. 

I don't have a problem with Sansa and the Northerners being wary of Dany, whom they do not know.  However, I do have a problem--if the show wants me to believe that Sansa is oh, so smart and politically savvy--with her not have the smarts or savvy not to openly display it or to antagonize someone the North really, really needs at the moment. 

Then we have the "logistics" complaint.  Seriously? Does Sansa think that this is going to be a long term situation?  The AoTD is on its way; the battle is happening sooner than later.  To me, this comment by Sansa just shows how poor her (and the Northern lords) understanding of the situation they're in really is.

If the "Show" contradicts the "Tell," I'm going with the "Show."

I've seen this complaint before--that Dany was"Blowing into Town with [a] show of force"--but I don't quite understand it.  She came North with her entire combined army and her dragons to help them fight.  Just exactly where is she supposed to hide them so that it doesn't look as if she's making a "show of force?"

[tennisgurl]

Bran shall now be known as Bran of the Awkward Silences.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

5 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Gendry and Arya are 5 years apart.  Right now she is 18, and he is 22.  Hardly child bride material. 

Ok, well then I’ll just have to pretend he doesn’t look like he’s been in his late 20s-early 30s for the last few years. 

[rhygirl720]

2 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I honestly think that the best option for Westeros is a counsel, not a ruler.

a council of seven?

[Nanrad]

I'm confused how else someone in Dany's position is supposed to act? She grew up impoverished and learned that only way to achieve power is to take and not show weakness. The first time she did someone a solid, her husband and child was killed and she was made barren. She only knows how to rule in the style that she has because that's been the only effective way throughout her journey.

Do we honestly think keeping the Tarly's alive wouldn't have bit her in the ass???

She is used to fighting for everything, including her power and respect, it's not surprising that that is how she operates even with civilizations that don't behave that way. 

[The Companion]

32 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

 

Then we have the "logistics" complaint.  Seriously? Does Sansa think that this is going to be a long term situation?  The AoTD is on its way; the battle is happening sooner than later.  To me, this comment by Sansa just shows how poor her (and the Northern lords) understanding of the situation they're in really is.

We have seen that a siege is a common tactic for battles in this world. Being unable to last the winter within the walls could force their hand in traditional combat. This would be a common concern when expecting a battle. Will the AOTD employ such tactics? Probably not, but who knows. They don't need supplies and the cold won't get to them (both issues that could bring down human forces). 

[Stardancer Supreme]

6 hours ago, ulkis said:

I had the cheesy/sentimental thought that Jon was putting all the energy into his embrace with Bran that he couldn't get to give to Rickon and Robb. sob.

I think GRRM was pretty short-sighted killing off Caitlyn. Her reaction to Jon's paternity would have been the one I wanted to see the most. 

Especially considering that Ned didn't trust her enough with the truth to keep her (and Sansa) from treating Jon like trash through his formative years.

[LadyChaos]

32 minutes ago, rhygirl720 said:

a council of seven?

yes, or a counsel consisting of all the wardens with a few extra people

[Athena5217]

13 hours ago, laprin said:

Dany has always had a nasty edge to her personality. She has demonstrated on multiple occasions that she can be ruthless. I am more concerned about the direction of Sansa. She was needlessly rude with Dany at the initial meeting and pretty cold to Tyrion, although he has always been nothing but nice to her. She came off a lot like Cersei, and it brought to mind when Jon told Sansa she seemed to admire Cersei.  

I agree with you about Sansa’s treatment of Daenerys, but I give her a pass on Tyrion because she didn’t want to marry him and I guess technically she may still be married to him. Also, considering how much of her family is dead  because of his, I understand why she may prefer to avoid him.

[ICantDoThatDave]

10 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Sansa instead of fighting Arya, had Arya kill Little Finger.

That was just more tell not show.  We didn't see how that happened, How did Sansa outsmart Littlefinger?  What did she do?  What was her reasoning?  Did Bran help?  Did she have Arya spy on him?  We were just told it happened somehow and witnessed the aftermath.  A lot of stuff apparently happened offscreen in order to keep the audience in the dark, but it prevented us from seeing in place of being told.

It'd be like if Jon walked outside of Winterfell and was confronted by the Night King.  Then the next scene he walks in & tosses the NK's head on the floor.  We get Brienne whispering to The Hound "He's the greatest swordsman I've ever seen!"  But we, the audience, don't actually *see* him fighting.

If Sansa's the smartest person Arya's ever met, we need to see why or that line's just laughable.

[Lemuria]

47 minutes ago, The Companion said:

We have seen that a siege is a common tactic for battles in this world. Being unable to last the winter within the walls could force their hand in traditional combat. This would be a common concern when expecting a battle. Will the AOTD employ such tactics? Probably not, but who knows. They don't need supplies and the cold won't get to them (both issues that could bring down human forces). 

But she knows that the NK brought the Wall down.  Why would he then decide to sit around Winterfell for years?  

Besides, what's the alternative?  Send away the two armies and two dragons the North desperately needs if it's going to stand any chance of defeating the AoTD?  Of course not, so why then voice it as a complaint and an annoyance, instead of using it as an issue of joint concern that could possibly bring both sides together?

You know, the smart and politically savvy thing to do.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Lemuria

[Macbeth]

Lena was fantastic as Cersei in the throne room. There are no more courtiers and she seems disappointed in the size of her mercenary army.  You could see her desperation. 

So the Lannister army is doing what?   Are there a lot of defections?  It sounds like those soldiers were traumatized by their fight with the dragon. With Jaime gone - Bronn would be the next logical head - but he has been given a new task. 

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Westeros doesn't need more of the same though, at this point. Jon showed mercy to another non-kneeler, Mance, when he was being executed by fire. He also didnt force the wildlings (also prisoners like the Tarlys) to kneel to him. Dany has the same values as all the rest: might = right.  Dany thinks she has to be a tyrant - but people aren't having that. They're fed up.

Wildlings and Southerners have different cultural norms regarding kneeling, so a Wildling refusing to kneel and a Southerner refusing to kneel don't carry the same meaning. Moreover, the Wildlings were expected to contribute to the defense of the North afterwards, in effect, become allies. Randyll Tarly refused to do anything comparable.

[Jaded Sapphire]

 

 

 

9 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:

-what did Euron mean by "mute" when describing Golden Company?

He wasn't describing the Golden Company, he was describing his own men. Sometime in either Season 6 or 7 it was mentioned that Euron cut out all of the tongues of the men on his ships. It seemed to be a myth but apparently it's true of the men on his main ship anyway (lest he was just joking).

 

 

 

 

3

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

I'm confused how else someone in Dany's position is supposed to act? She grew up impoverished and learned that only way to achieve power is to take and not show weakness. The first time she did someone a solid, her husband and child was killed and she was made barren. She only knows how to rule in the style that she has because that's been the only effective way throughout her journey.

Do we honestly think keeping the Tarly's alive wouldn't have bit her in the ass???

She is used to fighting for everything, including her power and respect, it's not surprising that that is how she operates even with civilizations that don't behave that way. 

There is an argument that she could have simply kept them prisoner, if for no other reason then as strategic assets when two of her allies had been captured. But at the absolute minimum, she definitely should not have burned them alive with her dragon as the form of execution. As many have said here and like Jon, Tyrion, Jorah, and Barristan told Dany, the optics alone of burning non-combatants with dragons is terrible for the supposedly non-mad daughter of the Mad King.

[Calamity Jane]

So, in order to to back up R + L = J thing, is it time for someone to go get Howland Reed to attest to Jon's identity? Bran knows he was there.

[Constantinople]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the people willing to attest to Jon's parentage are his "brother" the creepy seer, and his best friend, whose father and brother were executed by the other Targaryen claimant.

i don't know how the other characters would react, but in real life many would be skeptical

[comanick]

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the people willing to attest to Jon's parentage are his "brother" the creepy seer, and his best friend, whose father and brother were executed by the other Targaryen claimant.

i don't know how the other characters would react, but in real life many would be skeptical

^^This. Jon has zero ways of actually proving his heritage and zero power to actually press his claim.  And i cant see how anyone in the north finding out his heritage being a good thing. Will the people who hate house targaryen suddenly pull a 180 and be pro house targeryen? I 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

If Sansa's the smartest person Arya's ever met, we need to see why or that line's just laughable.

I think a better line for Arya would've been something like "That's not fair, Sansa's been through a lot" or a reminder about how the wolves have to stick together. That would've telegraphed how Arya didn't appreciate Jon talking smack, but done so with words that weren't totally off the mark.

I do think Sansa's smart in a sense, but her biggest flaw is airing family squabbles in front of the other Houses. She's horrible at choosing the appropriate time and place for these sorts of conversations. 

[ImpinAintEasy]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the people willing to attest to Jon's parentage are his "brother" the creepy seer, and his best friend, whose father and brother were executed by the other Targaryen claimant.

i don't know how the other characters would react, but in real life many would be skeptical

Well, he has his own dragon now too. Being a dragon rider is heavily associated with Targaryens. But I don’t believe birthright will have anything to do with who could potentially sit the iron throne. It will play a role in the relationship between Jon and Daenerys, with Sam,Sansa, and Arya likely pushing his claim. 

[dirtypop90]

I still just fail to understand why Sansa speaking up in front of other Northern Lords is so awful.  Should she just sit there and put up with anything like she did with Ramsey, Joffrey, Robin? A perk of having a brother as the King is having a seat at the table and a voice.  It would be unrealistic for her to act with Jon as she did in the past.

And I think Jon bears some responsibility for their dynamic. I always see people saying that Sansa distrusts Jon, doesn’t think much of him etc.  And we see Jon asking, “have you no faith in me?”  But the feeling is mutual. Jon’s little snide remark to Arya wasn’t the first time he indicated he doesn’t listen to Sansa.  He did it last year when Sansa told him he needed to be smarter than Ned and Rob, and he replied, “how? By listening to you?”  Sansa sadly replied, “would that be so awful?”  And crickets from Jon.  So I don’t think Jon is listening to her in private, either.  Speaking up in front of everyone at least gets his attention.  I’m not sure Sansa would get it otherwise.

[dr pepper]

13 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Nudity check

Half check. Nudity is still not equal opportunity.

[ImpinAintEasy]

51 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I still just fail to understand why Sansa speaking up in front of other Northern Lords is so awful.  Should she just sit there and put up with anything like she did with Ramsey, Joffrey, Robin? A perk of having a brother as the King is having a seat at the table and a voice.  It would be unrealistic for her to act with Jon as she did in the past.

And I think Jon bears some responsibility for their dynamic. I always see people saying that Sansa distrusts Jon, doesn’t think much of him etc.  And we see Jon asking, “have you no faith in me?”  But the feeling is mutual. Jon’s little snide remark to Arya wasn’t the first time he indicated he doesn’t listen to Sansa.  He did it last year when Sansa told him he needed to be smarter than Ned and Rob, and he replied, “how? By listening to you?”  Sansa sadly replied, “would that be so awful?”  And crickets from Jon.  So I don’t think Jon is listening to her in private, either.  Speaking up in front of everyone at least gets his attention.  I’m not sure Sansa would get it otherwise.

As has been stated, they both bear responsibility for their poor communication. But on the issue of trust, I have to take Jon’s side here. He has far more reason to have trust issues with Sansa. She treated him like a second class citizen growing up. She essentially compared him to both Ramsey and Joffrey to his face. She withheld vital information about a huge army marching North to lend their support before the Battle Of The Bastards. 

The implication that Jon is misogynistic, and that is why he doesn’t listen to Sansa doesn’t fly with me. And that is usually the way it is viewed, unfortunately. 

[millennium]

Euron is ruining this for me.   Pilou Asbaek is so hammy that it shatters the credibility of those scenes.   IMO, worst character/actor in the entire series.

(Although Robin of the Vale could give him a run for his money.)

Edited April 16, 2019 by millennium

[Nanrad]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

I still just fail to understand why Sansa speaking up in front of other Northern Lords is so awful.  Should she just sit there and put up with anything like she did with Ramsey, Joffrey, Robin? A perk of having a brother as the King is having a seat at the table and a voice.  It would be unrealistic for her to act with Jon as she did in the past.

And I think Jon bears some responsibility for their dynamic. I always see people saying that Sansa distrusts Jon, doesn’t think much of him etc.  And we see Jon asking, “have you no faith in me?”  But the feeling is mutual. Jon’s little snide remark to Arya wasn’t the first time he indicated he doesn’t listen to Sansa.  He did it last year when Sansa told him he needed to be smarter than Ned and Rob, and he replied, “how? By listening to you?”  Sansa sadly replied, “would that be so awful?”  And crickets from Jon.  So I don’t think Jon is listening to her in private, either.  Speaking up in front of everyone at least gets his attention.  I’m not sure Sansa would get it otherwise.

Because, as many others gleefully have pointed out, The North are stubborn and their position of power is already precarious as it is. If they are showing division amongst themselves, that makes it easier for other houses to say, "Hey, they don't have their stuff together, why don't one of us challenge them." OR they start listening to one party (Sansa) over the other therefore effectively undermining Jon's power.

The issue isn't that Sansa is seeking up, but rather, she is challenging Jon's authority in public, which is bad. Literally no one is asking her to put up with anything. She couldn't air out her grievances or speak her mind with Robin, Joffrey, or Ramsey, but she can with Jon. Jon allows her to get away with a lot NOT because she's a woman, but because she's her sister and been through a lot. Even men would get thrown in jail, titles stripped away, or killed for the crap Sansa does and that's what people aren't getting.

Not only does Sansa have a seat at the table, she has his ear in a sense, but she undermines her goodwill with Jon when she undermines him during council. Those meetings are for the Lords NOT those who serve Jon to snark and undermine him to the others. And it's clearly not a man v. woman thing for many if they have the same issue with Sansa doing that to Dany. We're not saying she should say nothing, we're saying she should wait until they are in private, so that they show a public united front.

Sansa bears more weight for this distrust. Why? Because she refuses to explain her concerns in a way that makes allows others to take her seriously. She hassled him about doing BotB, then hassled him about getting more houses to join even while houses turned them away (someone can correct me on this), then didn't give a concrete example of Ramsey's depravity. Finally, didn't tell Jon there could be another army coming through.

I'm not saying Sansa should be like, "Ramsey raped and tortured me." But, she could say, "He feeds living people to his dogs for fun--what do you think he'd do to our brother to mess with you." Saying he's dangerous and that Rickon is already "dead" is helpful to literally no one.

Also, their old dynamic was her treating him like crap.

Speaking in front of everyone doesn't get his attention clearly. Telling Jon things in black and white does. Jon doesn't take her seriously nor does he believe she's the smartest person because she hasn't done anything to show that to him. 

---------

Here's how that Rickon convo could've gone:

Sansa: Jon, you don't know Ramsey like I do...he's twisted and vile. He's sick. He's not going to give Rickon back to us--it's his sick little game, so he can watch us suffer as he harms our brother. I don't know what he's going to do, but he feeds his large, rabid dogs living people--living people, Jon. Who knows what he has up his sleeve. Don't fall into his game.

Army convo:

Sansa: I've been in contact with my mother's childhood friend, Petyr Baellish, and he's offer the Vale's army to us.

Jon: Really? How did you pull that off?

Sansa: He seemed to have unrequited feelings for my mother.

Jon: ???

Sansa: And sees her in me. He's a twisted old man, but we can use this to our advantage, Jon. We didn't have the numbers before, but we do now. I was think that perhaps you could led with the North's army first, and then the Vale's army catches Ramsey by surprise.

Jon: I don't know about that. I think we should mach together.

Sansa: No, you don't know Ramsey like I do--he likes to draw things out. It's better to catch him off guard, rather than having him reformulate his plans.

These convos are literally not as difficult as painted. And if Jon doesn't listen it proves 1. That he's an idiot 2. That Sansa is not only smarter, but more strategic and calculating than Jon and actually knows how to play the game.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Nanrad

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 hours ago, Ottis said:

Quick question: WHERE was little unfortunate Lord Umber hanging on the wall? Was that at the Umber keep? TIA.

Yes, Tormund, Beric, and Dolorous Edd were at Last Hearth which is House Umber. This article also has a map showing where Last Hearth is in relation to Winterfell.

13 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I feel icky about the shipping of Arya and Gendry. How old are either of them supposed to be? I get that this is in the era of when incest apparently was okay and so were child brides, but he seems more like an older brother, and I still see Arya as a girl.

(There will be quite some cognitive dissonance in my brain if Maisie Williams takes on a "sexy woman" role. I think she's attractive enough to pull it off, barring that harsh slicked back hairdo she was sporting in this episode, but yeah... I still see her as a young teenager even if in real life she's what, in her early 20s?)

11 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Gendry and Arya are 5 years apart.  Right now she is 18, and he is 22.  Hardly child bride material.

And if we're talking about age inappropriate, I seem to recall some people shipping Sansa and the Hound back when she was still at King's Landing and I'm pretty sure the age difference between them was more than four years. Even if Gendry were a few years older (hell, even if he were twice her age), I'd rather have two people who genuinely like each other have a consensual relationship than half the marriages/relationships forced upon the characters. I mean, Sansa alone was forced to marry Tyrion (who was a lot older) and Ramsay (the less said the better) and had Littlefinger pursuing her (and he was definitely old enough to be her father). In comparison, Arya and Gendry seem like a sweet, age-appropriate relationship.

6 hours ago, Rambler said:

I think the most valuable lesson to be learned from this episode is to never order three prostitutes at the same time because the two you aren't having sex with will inevitably start chatting about things you probably don't want to know about.

And one of them will probably have the pox!

3 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

So, in order to to back up R + L = J thing, is it time for someone to go get Howland Reed to attest to Jon's identity? Bran knows he was there.

This is what I was wondering when it became apparent last season that the show was going to reveal Jon's true parentage. His bio mom and dad are dead so they can't confirm it. Ned is dead, but even if he were alive, would anyone believe him just because he said he swore to keep his sister's secret? And of the people who are still alive, why should anyone believe it's true just because they say so? It's not like they could just go pick up a paternity test at CVS back then or go on the GoT verson of Maury Povich ("you are NOT the father!"), so there's no way to prove that it's true. Anyone could say they were someone's son and people could believe them or not believe them, but no one could actually prove it (or disprove it).

[Nanrad]

The thing about Gendry and Arya is that they were never framed as brother and sister even while they travelled together. Arya ogled him at his forge. Gendry was respectful of her, but they were always framed as friends and never "oh, these are two people who are like brother and sister."

After she split from Gendry and co., I'm not saying Arya never found other boys attractive, but she was never around any other boys long enough or, at all, to develop crushes. Or admire their physique like she did Gendry.

This was set up season one. Then they had a little flirtation during the reunion, which Arya didn't have with Hot Pie, someone she cared dearly about, because her feelings for Gendry is quite different. I don't think Arya understood her feelings then, especially because she was so young. She probably doesn't even now and sees Gendry as "just" an old friend.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Nanrad

[Colorful Mess]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Wildlings and Southerners have different cultural norms regarding kneeling, so a Wildling refusing to kneel and a Southerner refusing to kneel don't carry the same meaning. Moreover, the Wildlings were expected to contribute to the defense of the North afterwards, in effect, become allies. Randyll Tarly refused to do anything comparable.

The equivalent they're drawing in the show is mercy to prisoners, "beat dogs" as Stannis called them. Lannister or wildling, the they were beaten,.

Dany saw no use for Randyll or Dickon. Jon saw use for the wildlings. You can't tell me that Jon wouldn't see use for Randyll or Dickon in some capacity. This is the way to gain loyalty in Westeros. Make people feel useful. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

If I was Dany, the minute Sam started getting all teary eyed and blubbering, I would have explained to him how Lord Tarly and his men, were guilty of treason. They turned against the queen they were sworn to server, Oleanna, defeated and killed her men, and stole all her gold, all in the name of Cerci Lannister who usurped the throne and had no legitimate right to it, all because they "wanted to be on the winning side". Oh and they were wrong. I was the winning side. I also gave them the opportunity to change their wicked ways and server me, but your father declined. I then considered sending him to the wall but he declined that too. So I had to execute him. Then your foolish brother decided to stand with your father. *SHRUG* Your family is not too smart LORD Tarly.

[Nanrad]

15 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

If I was Dany, the minute Sam started getting all teary eyed and blubbering, I would have explained to him how Lord Tarly and his men, were guilty of treason. They turned against the queen they were sworn to server, Oleanna, defeated and killed her men, and stole all her gold, all in the name of Cerci Lannister who usurped the throne and had no legitimate right to it, all because they "wanted to be on the winning side". Oh and they were wrong. I was the winning side. I also gave them the opportunity to change their wicked ways and server me, but your father declined. I then considered sending him to the wall but he declined that too. So I had to execute him. Then your foolish brother decided to stand with your father. *SHRUG* Your family is not too smart LORD Tarly.

She would've been seen as even more cold hearted. 

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, Lemuria said:

The way Sansa felt that she was entitled to the Northerners' loyalty despite the betrayal they felt by her family? 

Yep. If they felt betrayed by the Starks, right or wrong, and Sansa knew/understood that it may have been wiser to handle things differently. I do recall her reminding the one house (forgot who it was) about their pledge as banner men.

One big difference I see is that Sansa was among her own if you will, these were her people. There was an established relationship between the houses of the North.

Daenerys however is a foreigner, an outsider (as Jon plainly said). For all her claims, when you strip away the titles, blood lines, rights to the throne, House Targaryen isn't one of them. There isn't that relationship/bond and that makes a huge difference.

Edited April 16, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I don't think Bronn will succeed in killing Tyrion and Jamie.  I do expect that he'll try.  There are too many morally corrupt fun characters.  At some point, one of them is going to come to a bad end at the sword of someone we expected them not to actually betray.

I don't like that she's ignoring the optics on the dragons.

She should have been really sure that the Tarly's were uniformly reviled before burning them alive because of the Mad King.  That is what Tyrion had been trying to get across.  Nothing would have lessened it for Sam; but I think everyone else would have taken it better if she had used a different method.

I also don't like the smug satisfaction she takes that the Northern's that aren't smiling at her arrival are scared to death of the dragons.

 Dany making a snide remark to Sansa about dragons eating anything they want to rebut concerns about how everything was going to be fed was idiotic.  Because, honestly, legitimate concern and I latched right onto, so they are going to pick off the children.  

She really doesn't get how much people hate and fear her father and his dragons.  She needs to respond in a way that doesn't stoke those fears.

As stupid/unwise as Sansa is being called for being disrespectful to Daenerys, I think this point is well stated.

We know those dragons have murdered children before so to respond the way she did was definitely unwise. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[GodsBeloved]

8 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the people willing to attest to Jon's parentage are his "brother" the creepy seer, and his best friend, whose father and brother were executed by the other Targaryen claimant.

i don't know how the other characters would react, but in real life many would be skeptical

But can't Sam produce the writing that lead him to the truth about Jon? I don't remember what the writing said exactly but wouldn't that be proof? 

[Gummo]

Yes, the episode was shorter than I would have liked.

Yes, there were many awkward moments.

Yes, the credits are different.

I DON'T CARE! I'M SO HAPPY GOT IS BACK!

There, I said it.

Some random observations:

This show kills off beloved characters so gleefully I was truly surprised & delighted that Tormund and Dolorous Edd are alive! 

Cersei's been Queen for a couple of years now, correct? Where are the courtiers, the functionaries, the palace bustle? It still looks like Kings Landing is deserted, that all the battles were just a week ago, instead of years. She should have a functioning court by now, is what I'm saying. Instead it looks like it's just her and Qlyburn (or however you spell his name) wandering around looking pensive.

(Which leads me to another point -- I wonder how the people of Kings Landing are faring under her Queenship. It would be a typical Martinesque irony if the maddest, most ruthless ruler since the Targaryens was actually a good administrator.)

I don't see either Dany or Jon ending up as ruler of the 7 Kingdoms: first, every time Jon's been put in charge of something, he's blown it bigtime. He was chosen as leader of the Night Watch and was murdered for his actions. He became King of the North and immediately left and ceded his authority to a stranger. He may inspire others to follow him with his nobility and courage, but sooner or later they turn on him because frankly he's a terrible leader.

Nobody in the Kingdoms knows Dany. Nobody in the Kingdom is dreaming of a return to Targaryen rule. The way the Northerners "welcomed" her is the way she would be received anywhere in Westeros. She can only ever rule the 7 Kingdoms with unending force. That can only work for so long.

BUT there is one son of a king hanging around Winterfell, a man who's good-hearted and wise beyond his years. Gendry hasn't been kept around all these seasons for nothing. He will be king of the 7 Kingdoms, with Arya by his side as either wife, consort or bodyguard (or some combination thereof). That would leave Sansa where she's meant to be, Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North, tied to the king through ties of marriage and blood and so ending the tension between Kings Landing and Winterfell once and for all. 

But who could melt Sansa's stony heart? After all she's been through, why would she ever trust another man? Well, there's one man she's known who never used her, who always treated her gently and with respect -- yes, I would really like to see Sansa end up with Tyrion, by her own choice, romantically and every other way. It would be a different type of fairy tale ending to have the hideous, misshapen dwarf (well, he's supposed to be) married to the most beautiful woman in the kingdom.

That just leaves Tormund and Jaime dueling for the hand of Lady Brienne. (LOL, I can dream, can't I?)

Just like with Ygritte, that sweet scene with Dany by the waterfall will be the last peaceful interlude for Dany and Jon. The revelation of his heritage will necessarily drive a wedge between them.

Well, these thoughts are all jumbled and out of order, and I feel like I left out tons, but WELCOME BACK GAME OF THRONES!

[Sakura12]

With the Tarly's what was Dany supposed to do with them? They didn't have the room or time to worry about prisoners. She couldn't let them go and have them run back to Cersei. That would show Cersei she was weak and give Cersei her allies back. She didn't have much of a choice. 

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

She would've been seen as even more cold hearted. 

Indeed. If she cared to spare his feelings and wanted to tell a version of the truth Dany could have said “They faced me on the field of battle and they died.”

Technically true, but in Westerosi culture there seems a huge difference between dying in battle and being executed. On the battlefield it’s normally kill or be killed and father and son fought together on the losing side, their dying is tragic, but not a deliberate targeting of them; anyone on the opposing side might have killed them lest they be killed by them.

It feels more “fair” in a strange way.

Execution though is deliberate and ordered by the person in charge against someone at their mercy.

And I think that is actually the point. The Starks have all executed people too. Ned did, Robb did, Jon did, Sansa did, Arya did. But they weren’t executed simply for being on the losing side. Ned executed a Night Watch deserter who knew the punishment for doing so. Robb executed Lord Karstark for murdering two boys, Jon executed Slynt for refusing, not once, but repeatedly, the lawful commands of the elected Lord Commander, despite knowing the consequences for it (he also previously fled from battle and hid in a cellar when the Wildlings attacked). He also executed members of a conspiracy for the attempted (technically successful but for magic) murder of the Lord Commander. Sansa executed Ramsey for the sadistic murders of many people, including her brother. Arya and Sansa executed Littlefinger for multiple crimes including the murder of Jon and Lysa Arryn.

But Ned was executed for false crimes (and going back on the deal made to spare his family where he’d take the Black). Stannis burned alive those who would not convert to the Lord of Light or kneel. He was willing to let Mel sacrifice his nephew  to bring him victory. He let her burn his daughter at the stake for the promise of victory.

Dany crucified Lords at random without knowing or caring for their specific guilt (collective punishment is by definition unjust). She later threw a man to her dragons to burned and eaten alive and even stated afterwards she didn’t know if he was innocent or guilty... all she cared about was scaring the rest of them into line. She burned her prisoners the Tarley’s alive because they wouldn’t kneel to her in order to terrify the rest of the prisoners into kneeling.

And that I think is the critical thing... the motive of every Stark execution is to punish a crime and the one killed is the one who actually committed the crime. Dany executes people to sow terror in her enemies without any sense of fairness.

There were plenty of other men who were refusing to kneel, but Dany singled out Lord Tarley knowing his shocking death would scare the rest into line. She threw a man whose guilt she wasn’t certain of to her dragons for the message it would send to the rest. She crucified random Masters for the message it would send the rest.

That’s not justice. That’s tyranny and terror. She’s not just more of the same... she’s more of the worst of the lot.

Even the actors think Dany is supposed to be seen as a psychopath at this point.

https://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-sam-daenerys-pscyhopathic-jon-aegon-season-8-premiere/