S08.E01: Winterfell

[ImpinAintEasy]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think we could argue all day about Sansa vs. Dany but heres something to chew on: if Samsa is wary it's because she has been severely traumatized by Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger. Shes not going to trust her brothers gf just because. 

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

Khal Drogo raped Dany. Repeatedly. She grew up being a beggar princess. Sansa’s life was actually far more pampered in Winterfell. 

[Constantinople]

It was the dragons we bowed to and now the dragons are dead - Greatjon Umber (S1E10: Fire and Blood)

Not anymore

Get over it Northerners

[terrymct]

Something just occurred to me.  Not only did Sam find out that Dany had burned his father and brother alive...but remember that she said they gave up their claim to title and lands.  That means that Sam's mother and sister are out on their arses if Dany wants to give that title to anyone. 

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, terrymct said:

Something just occurred to me.  Not only did Sam find out that Dany had burned his father and brother alive...but remember that she said they gave up their claim to title and lands.  That means that Sam's mother and sister are out on their arses if Dany wants to give that title to anyone. 

I think Dany/Jon will pardon Sam for stealing books from the Citadel and abandoning the Nights Watch, and grant him his father's lands back.  I also think Gendry will be legitimized and granted the Baratheon lands.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That said, I think she ruled well in Meereen, despite making some mistakes.  She was dealing with an incredibly difficult situation, trying to create an entirely new economy and racially different culture, after generations of slavery.   

The situation was incredibly difficult, which I think was part of the point - conquering is one thing. Sticking around afterwards, not so much. As Daario told her, she's a conqueror, not a ruler.

And she showed that in Slaver's Bay. The cities she abandoned after conquering them soon fell under the rule of slavers again - slavers who then financed uprisings against her. Her rule in Meereen went so badly that her chief bodyguard was cut down in the streets, the guy she planned to marry to keep the peace was also killed, and she herself was almost assassinated - saved only by her dragon. She then abandoned the city right after that assassination attempt - not to mention the mass murder of several Meereen people. And sure, most of that was because Drogo flew away and then she got kidnapped by the Dothraki - situations that showed that a) she can't always control her people-eating, fire-breathing dragons. In her absence, the city descended into more chaos, which her advisors only managed to halt by making a deal to put a lot of people back into slavery again, and then Meereen got attacked again and still more people died. 

She then left Meereen under the control of her former lover and, as far as we can tell, has done nothing to check on its welfare since. Are the slaves still free? I hope so, but I don't have the same confidence in Daario that she does.

I like Dany. I especially like that, unlike certain other people (HI CERSEI AND EURON AND QYBURN) she has the common sense to realize that the White Walkers are the actual threat. I like that she's willing to put aside conquering Westeros to deal with the White Walkers - that's great. And I loved that she didn't try to play games with Sam. That was awesome. I like that she's been willing to risk her own life to help others instead of holding back in a castle. This is all awesome.

But I can't describe her as a great ruler.

Though to be fair I don't think I can describe any of these people as great rulers. Which may well be the point - I don't think this show is trying to portray aristocracy/monarchy as an awesome political system.

[Kanner]

1 hour ago, StarBrand said:

I believe the first test of Dany's character, at least in the eyes of the skeptical northerners, would be how she deals with Jamie Lannister. If she were to say something to him along the lines of"you killed my father-and that was actually the right thing to do. You ended a reign of tyranny.  You should have been praised for your bravery, not given the Kingslayer label". That would make people believe this Targareon is, in fact, not her father. That kind of response would floor Jamie (which might account for how his look goes from afraid to puzzled during the promo.)

I would like to think you are right about the response to her potentially pardoning him but the North hates the Lannisters too. I could easily see them thinking it is a betrayal also. She might be in a lose-lose situation here. 

[Calamity Jane]

6 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I don’t see any chemistry there at all. As friends, sure, but not romantically. Frankly, the only character I might see as a love match for Arya, aside from the age difference, is Brienne.  Or maybe Hot Pie. She does like his cooking.

I was wondering where they were going with the relationship, up until Arya smiled and dropped her eyes, and then turned around as she left and flashed that little grin.  That sure looked like smitten to me.  But we shall see - one of the things I can't wait to find out.  

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, quarks said:

I like Dany. I especially like that, unlike certain other people (HI CERSEI AND EURON AND QYBURN) she has the common sense to realize that the White Walkers are the actual threat. I like that she's willing to put aside conquering Westeros to deal with the White Walkers - that's great. And I loved that she didn't try to play games with Sam. That was awesome. I like that she's been willing to risk her own life to help others instead of holding back in a castle. This is all awesome.

I agree with your post in context of the show, but this also illustrates what I think turned out to be a bit of a fundamental problem with the ending of S7: if she were so smart and saw the while walkers as a threat right away, and you're already in the north, why not take the chance to burn all or as many of the white walkers while you're there? Okay, so Victarion is felled, but if you have Rhaegal and Drogon just torching everything in site, you can effectively set back the entire effort at the very least, and at best, you burn the Night King and everyone of the wights is lost. No, it isn't as dramatic as having the wall fall, a dragon zombie, etc., but it WOULD have ended what I'm pretty sure is going to is going to be a pretty unsatisfying conflict with an unsatisfying villain. It would have left S8 ALL of the episodes to deal with what we all really want to see in the firstplace: the war for the Iron Throne. 

Ending the WW conflict there actually solves a lot of problems. Not the least of which is it turns "dumb plan" into "improvised imperial maneuver by Danerys" and gives the north reason to consider their allegiance. 

[terrymct]

11 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I think Dany/Jon will pardon Sam for stealing books from the Citadel and abandoning the Nights Watch, and grant him his father's lands back.  I also think Gendry will be legitimized and granted the Baratheon lands.

I suspect that's the end position for them, if they both survive.

I do want Gendry to end up as King with Arya as his queen, just for the unexpectedness of it despite the abundance hints since season one.

[Uncle JUICE]

6 minutes ago, Kanner said:

I would like to think you are right about the response to her potentially pardoning him but the North hates the Lannisters too. I could easily see them thinking it is a betrayal also. She might be in a lose-lose situation here. 

Another problem created by the immediate downturn taken after The Spoils of War. Once Jaime doesn't die in a way that would have absolutely been in keeping with the show's jaw dropper deaths (imagine the breathless Tyrion seeing that happen? Dinklage would have eaten that scene for fucking breakfast), the only sensible alternative was to have him be captured and leveraged to Cersei PRIOR to his betraying her. Bronn could still have saved his life, but Tyrion could have shouted STOP! and said "That's the most valuable hostage in the seven kingdoms." THen you can have Cersei decide how much she values Jaime, and then you can have Jaime reflect on it dramatically. Ransomed him? Then he's instantly super faithful to Cersei's cause. Refused? Then he's worthless and subjected to the Tarly treatment. Boy did S7 miss opportunities. 

[betha]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

I’d say Dany has had her share of rape and family members murdered in front of her.

[Sakura12]

12 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

The woman he fell in love with didn't have all the armies nor 2 dragons.  Big difference.

If Dany came along with her army and dragons and Robb said he wanted to marry her. Catelyn would've been like Frey who? Yes please marry her. The whole reason Robb was suppose to marry a Frey was for their army. 

[ImpinAintEasy]

It brings me solace that almost all of the Northerners, particularly the lords, are going to die in the battle with the AOTD. The ones that do survive will be singing a different tune about Dany/Jon by then, surely.

Those two are far from perfect, but as a poster up thread stated, none of them are close to perfect. Sansa makes plenty of mistakes. She is actively making a mistake by underestimating the threat of the Night King and his army. Jon was stubborn for assuming his people would understand why he bent the knee and Sansa is stubborn for refusing to try and understand why Jon bent the knee. Perhaps Jon could have been more colorful in describing the absolute hopelessness that is fighting the AOTD, but even then, the Northerners and Sansa won’t truly understand until they see for themselves. 

[Sakura12]

11 minutes ago, betha said:

I’d say Dany has had her share of rape and family members murdered in front of her.

Dany's husband and child were basicily murdered in front of her. She recieved the head of one her most trusted men in her khallasar. The khal's wanted to rape her and keep her locked away. Dany just has the advantage of a superpower with fire and dragons. 

[DrSparkles]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

He's gotten artistic before:

Yes!!!! What does this symbology mean?!?!?

[sashabear21]

This episode reinforced how much I hate Dany and have since season 3, and I wish Sansa would push her off the top of Winterfell like Theon did with Miranda.  She has zero personality outside of "I'm the queen, I'm the queen, I have dragons!!!".  It's painfully annoying. But hooray for reunions this episode! I've been waiting for Arya/Jon, and Arya/Gendry to reunite for several seasons now.  I have a feeling there's a painful downfall in store for Tyrion, but I don't think for one second it'll come from the hands of Bronn.  He's more likely to take Cersei's gold and then kill her than either of the Lannister guys.  And ewww...Cersei, Euron? Blarf! 

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

While I think Dany is a good queen, I agree that is was stupid to burn the loot train instead of seizing it.   

As for her "Whatever they want" comment, I think it was a joke and also assuring Sansa that the dragons would provide food for themselves. 

This entire show has consistently depicted military leaders and entities doing really idiotic stuff. Some of it no doubt due to the writers and directors wanting to maximize vusual impact, and some of it due to the constraints of the genre. I'll accept it, even if causes me to eyeroll. What I dislike about the direction they appear to headed is that they may be indulging in the laziest habit of mediocre television writing; converting what are supposed to be intelligent, compelling, characters into total morons (looking at you, Tyrion), in service to cheap plot twists. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm not too optimistic at this point.

[Tyro49]

Since Bran knows the future, why don't they ask him what happens, and be done with it?

What will Bronn do? He's fond of the Lannister brothers, but he's also fond of gold and thinking of his future (retirement).

[GodsBeloved]

12 hours ago, ancslove said:

Daenerys still isn't really a ruler.  She's a conqueror.  What's more, she's a conqueror who's gotten really, really good at conquering.  She no longer feels the need to string along an opposing force, the way she did at Astapor in S3.  She's gotten too used to going in with blunt force, and being loved for it.  Even "bending the knee" isn't really enough for her - she says she wants Sansa's respect, but Sansa has already formally yielded Winterfell. Dany really wants Sansa to love her as her Queen.

Good point. She needs to recognize that she needs to earn that respect because not everyone is going to fall for her and that is perfectly OK and does not call for her threatening those who don't respect/love her as Queen.

[Popples]

15 minutes ago, DrSparkles said:

Yes!!!! What does this symbology mean?!?!?

It hasn't been said just yet, but it was copied from the Children of the Forest.

This Harper's Bazaar article talks a bit about the symbols. The White Walkers used a different one in the first season. Even though there are only five episodes left ☹️, hopefully, we get some sort of explanation about it. Looking at you, Bran.

[Hana Chan]

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

But I can't describe her as a great ruler.

Have to agree here. Dany is great at conquering, but when it comes to the actual job of running things on a day to day basis? Not so much. She tends to manage control by use of power and, I'll say it here, use of terror. It's easy to keep the peace when you've got dragons and two armies to force people to do what you want. People don't fall into line, she burns them alive. Or sets the Unsullied or Dothraci on them. 

Building actual alliances? That's not something that Dany has shown any real aptitude for. Jon told her straight out that she needed to earn the respect of the people of the North. After a brief attempt at trying to win over Sansa with a touch of flattery, Dany was right back to expecting deference from Jon's family and bannermen because of her claim. 

How she handled the meeting with Sam really shows that her people skills are garbage when she can't fall back on using threats of force. Whatever justification she may have felt at the time, she still executed this man's father and brother and seemed to have no idea of what to say in the fact of his obvious distress. Given that this was Jon's closest friend, some tact and an expression of sympathy of not remorse (if only for feeling that she had no other options) would not have been amiss. Instead she just stood there and seemed unconcerned that her actions had on the close ally of the man that she loves.

And I'm going to have rocks tossed at me, but Sansa wasn't much better. For someone who keeps being held up as some kind of great political mind, she's got some huge blind spots. If Jon's great weakness is that he is too much a big picture type of leader, Sansa often doesn't see the big picture. I still don't believe that she really appreciates the treat that Jon tells her is approaching so she doesn't really see the benefit of having Dany and her troops and dragons at Winterfell. She worries about feeding such large numbers over the long term, which would be understandable if we were looking at a siege lasting months if not years. Jon knows and has tried to impress upon her that they may have as little as a few weeks or months before having to deal with the NK.

Spoiler

And now with the Wall fallen and the Last Hearth taken, it may be as little as a few days.

I really felt for Jon. He's trying to hold these alliances together and keep everyone's attention on the real objective and he's got Sansa and Dany doing nothing to help. At a few points, I really wanted to bang both their heads together.

[JanetSnakehole]

Someone placed the Curb theme over the final shot of the episode, haha:

Edited April 15, 2019 by JanetSnakehole

[Penman61]

Question: Leaving aside for the moment how Luke and Leia Dany and Jon might personally react to the news that they are aunt and nephew after they've bumped uglies, how might the people react?  I can't tell if the reaction would be disgust that threatens their rule or just dirty jokes that makes them more relatable or...what? 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Penman61

[Uncle JUICE]

18 minutes ago, sashabear21 said:

This episode reinforced how much I hate Dany and have since season 3, and I wish Sansa would push her off the top of Winterfell like Theon did with Miranda.  She has zero personality outside of "I'm the queen, I'm the queen, I have dragons!!!".  It's painfully annoying. But hooray for reunions this episode! I've been waiting for Arya/Jon, and Arya/Gendry to reunite for several seasons now.  I have a feeling there's a painful downfall in store for Tyrion, but I don't think for one second it'll come from the hands of Bronn.  He's more likely to take Cersei's gold and then kill her than either of the Lannister guys.  And ewww...Cersei, Euron? Blarf! 

If Cersei thinks Bronn will ever use that crossbow on either brother, then the show has completely lost its grip on Cersei's character. I think it'll be his downfall too, but there's simply no sensible way this queen thinks that she can prepay a sellsword to murder two people he was legitimately friends with. 

[GodsBeloved]

16 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I sympathize with Sam's grief for his brother but let's recognize that he was blinded by emotion to think Jon would never do that. I mean, Jon might spare Dickon for Sam's sake but Dany had no personal connection there, and Jon usually goes with beheading, but he would never spare a bannerman who committed treason the way Randyll did and then kept throwing defiance in his face.

This is what I am unclear on. The Tarlys had not pledged themselves to Daenerys so is it treason for Randyll to not bend the knee especially when his Queen Cersei had not be unseated?? However in this case, I do think Jon might give second thought to killing Randyll if he saw it as treason. His own father, well uncle, was at least as guilty of treason as Randyll supposedly was.

Edited April 15, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[terrymct]

7 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Question: Leaving aside for the moment how Luke and Leia Dany and Jon might personally react to the news that they are aunt and nephew after they've bumped uglies, how might the people react?  I can't tell if the reaction would be disgust that threatens their rule or just dirty jokes that makes them more relatable or...what? 

I wonder if Dany will ask if Jon is a real dragon aka can he withstand fire and heat?  Remember that she said her brother wasn't actually a dragon...a real Targaryan... because the molten gold killed him.

[Timetoread]

I had another thought.  I think maybe some of the problem is Jon's inability to grasp reality versus what he's used to.   He doesn't want to be a leader because of the position he held in his family.  He still sees Sansa as the nasty little sister who looks down on him and hears her concerns as insults, rather than receiving them as alternative perspective.  His reception of Arya shows me that he will struggle with understanding what she is now and what she's done.  He won't be able to wrap his head around Bran at all.

He seems to register only what HE has been through but not what the others have been through and how it has changed them.  Sansa was not only raped by the evil Bolton bastard, she spent years observing the machinations of KL.  She has a better take on Cersei than Tyrion.  Arya is able to move in and out of situations with stealth and efficiency.  Bran can see everything.

Jon has got to stop thinking of his siblings as who they were before everything went down.

[MrWhyt]

1 minute ago, Uncle JUICE said:

If Cersei thinks Bronn will ever use that crossbow on either brother, then the show has completely lost its grip on Cersei's character. I think it'll be his downfall too, but there's simply no sensible way this queen thinks that she can prepay a sellsword to murder two people he was legitimately friends with. 

Cersei doesn't value friendship, she values power. The thought that Bronn might turn down gold/power for friendship never crossed her mind.

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I wonder if Dany will ask if Jon is a real dragon aka can he withstand fire and heat?  Remember that she said her brother wasn't actually a dragon...a real Targaryan... because the molten gold killed him.

Didn't Jon burn his hand when he saved Lord Commander Mormont from the wight?

[Sakura12]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Didn't Jon burn his hand when he saved Lord Commander Mormont from the wight?

That's what I was going to say. Either they will forget that happened or use that to show that Jon didn't inherit the special Targaryen superpower. 

I did like that Bronn was like fuck no when he thought Cersei was going to ask him to kill the dragon queen. All the money in the world wouldn't make him face off against dragons. I wonder if Cersei just sent another ally off to join the North. Bronn didn't see the demonstration. He was off drinking. He might change his mind when he sees ice zombies.

[VCRTracking]

[Bryce Lynch]

18 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

This is what I am unclear on. The Tarlys had not pledged themselves to Daenerys so is it treason for Randyll to not bend the knee? However in this case, I do think Jon might give second thought to killing Randyll if he saw it as treason. His own father, well uncle, was at least as guilty of treason as Randyll supposedly was.

Treason charges against Randyll Tarly would be a murky area.  He gave his support to a usurper Queen, with no legitimate claim to the throne who had destroyed the house he swore fealty to.  Of course, that house was in rebellion against Cersei, who had been crowned and was sitting on the Iron Throne.  It was sort of a Jamie Lanister  "so many vows" situation.  

IIRC, Jamie had to talk him into fighting for Cersei, so he has questions about her legitimacy when he swore himself and his house to her.

All the instability and intrigue created a lot of gray areas for Tarly and the other lords.

I think his real crime was being  a foolish, stubborn SOB.  Since his allegiances were flexible, as Tyrion put it, it seemed foolish and arrogant to stand on principle at that point.  Why didn't he stand up and give his life fighting against Cersei after she murdered hundreds, including the Queen and stole the throne?  

[Drumpf1737]

14 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

I wish they'd stop having every character telling us how smart Sansa is and show her doing something smart or thinking up a brilliant plan or something.

Sansa is the reason they have Winterfell back. Sansa killed the other bastard. Sansa instead of fighting Arya, had Arya kill Little Finger. 

There's some evidence.

[comanick]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

If Dany came along with her army and dragons and Robb said he wanted to marry her. Catelyn would've been like Frey who? Yes please marry her. The whole reason Robb was suppose to marry a Frey was for their army. 

This. Thank you. 

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Sansa is the reason they have Winterfell back. Sansa killed the other bastard. Sansa instead of fighting Arya, had Arya kill Little Finger. 

There's some evidence.

Am I the only one who is aghast that Arya has not 'worn' Littlefinger as a Faceless Man yet? I was sure we'd be treated to a scene of her prepping that body somewhere. Even if he'd loudly declared for the North, certainly some havoc is left to be wreaked if she decided to do so. Like couldn't she send a few scrolls down to Winterfell, using Varys' old network, sow some seeds of doubt, worm her way back into King's Landing to get some intel on the plans, at the very least? Assassinate a few key contacts at best, if not Cersei herself?

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Good episode.  Loved the reunions! 

I think I understand why there’s all this talk about how smart Sansa is.  Jon STILL isn’t listening to her.  He’s all white king this white king that.  But not enough people have seen the white walkers for the consensus fear that is required.  And Jon is not a good communicator.  What they DO have experience with is a power hungry Targaryan using dragons to burn everybody into submission.  Robert and his Northern rebellion shut that shit down for a moment but it’s started up again with Hitler Jr.  and they are not here for it.  Nor are they here for an elected leader ceding power to an autocrat.  They had a council- hence a voice- and Jon has silenced them.

But the optic struggle between Jon and Sansa is that he wants to save the world but doesn’t really care about the people.  Sansa wants to save her people but needs to come around to the fact that she can only do so by saving the world.

Jon and Dany are big picture people.  Sansa is a manager and a good one. Jon represents the military and Sansa the politician.  You need both.  One without the other doesn’t work.  You can’t fight your war if your troops choose to stay home.  And you won’t have a home unless we win this war.

This really wasn’t about Dany, who is basically a supernatural creature.  Jon/Sansa is telling the human story.

Me bending the knee to this post

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Sansa is the reason they have Winterfell back. Sansa killed the other bastard. Sansa instead of fighting Arya, had Arya kill Little Finger. 

There's some evidence.

I think Sansa is smart, but I don't think she helped win the BOTB by being smart.  The smart move would have been to tell Jon she could have the Knights of the Vale there in a day or so, so he should delay the battle.    

She was smart to know that Ramsey would do something to lure Jon into doing something stupid, and that Jon should not do whatever that thing turned out to be.  That seemed to go right over Jon's head when she couldn't tell him specifically what it would be, and he should have recognized that Rickon and the arrows was that thing.  

[DarkRaichu]

Great 1st episode.  Typical GoT:
- Nudity check
- Dead child check
- Updates on all main characters check
- Dragons check
- Snow check
- Marching army check

Love the interaction between Arya & Jon.  When he asked if she ever used Sting, we understood both had been through a lot since they last met (in season 1, dang!).  And Arya can sneak up on anyone, even Jon, and Jon have faced crazy sh!t up north.

Sansa vs Danny, now that was something I want to see more.  Sansa has had the best teachers and her experience to draw on when it comes to politics and "cold war".  There was really nobody ever seriously challenged Danny on equal footings in the time of relative peace.  Danny lives by "you obey or you die" principle, well unless if you are cute, then you get to be her boytoy :D :D :D 

Loving how most characters outside Danny's inner circle thought she was a cold hearted tyrant, even when they were to afraid to say it

Hmm the 3 old/older wisemen / kingmakers (Varys, Tyrion, Davos). I have a feeling.... (to be continued in speculation thread ;) )

Well acting by Lena Heady. When Euron said something about putting baby in her belly, you could see the pains in her expression, thinking about the 3 kids she lost.  Made me felt sorry for Cersei for 1/2 second but then I remembered she brought it all to herself.. :P

The way they built up Jon Snow as a king makes me think he is not going to survive at the end :(

 

[shireenbamfatheon]

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

...

Jon has got to stop thinking of his siblings as who they were before everything went down.

This is a very good post and highlights how Jon's ruling style is very different from Robb's. For all his mistakes, Robb would still listen to his bannermen's thoughts and grievances before weighing his decisions because it's exactly what Ned used to do. Ned used to converse with his people and made them feel included in the decision-making process. Jon, on the other hand, seems incapable of communicating properly with anyone. Shouting "because I said so" at everyone is not a very appealing argument. Rather than calmly explain why he bent the knee and the good he believes Dany will do, he rode into Winterfell and told everyone that he was no longer their leader and everyone had to do what Dany told them because that's just the way it is. His rebuttal to everything is just "the NK is coming!" which is all fine and well, but how does that solve the issue of food, or how they're meant to handle a potential backstabbing by the Lannister army, or what they're supposed to do once the dragons run out of livestock to eat. You'd think Jon would have wisened up after he was assassinated, but he's repeating the exact same mistakes he did back them. At this point, none of these people are suited to rule anything. 

[comanick]

50 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Good point. She needs to recognize that she needs to earn that respect because not everyone is going to fall for her and that is perfectly OK and does not call for her threatening those who don't respect/love her as Queen.

I think everyone who mentions this is taking danys threat out of context. Imo she was trying to say what Jon Snow should have been saying to/about Sansa since last season and that is you dont have to like me or even agree with my decisions but you have to show respect in public. Behind closed doors you can express whatever you like, we can then try to come some sort of median then we can go talk to our subordinates as a united front. Sansa has knack now for publicily calling out people above her and that is just not the way things are done. It doesnt help anything. It just causes dissent in a situation where we all need to be unified. 

The scene with dany talking to jon about Sansa is a prime example of how you should do things like this. She talked to him in private and basically said you need to talk to your sister before i have to. i am the queen you choose to rule over the north and at the very least she has to respect that in public. 

Any ruler would ask for that. 

[GodsBeloved]

4 hours ago, Kanner said:

I’m baffled by the notion that Jon is just doing what Dany wants. In reality, SHE is doing what HE wants. This has been his goal for so long and she has paused her goal to help. Granted it should have been a great PR move but those Northern Lords and Ladies are just too stuck in the actions of others in the past. 

I don't think Jon is just doing what Daenerys wants. However I don't believe she is doing this for the good of the North which is Jon's motivation. The Night King is as much her enemy as he is the North's. The North is her kingdom and the destruction won't stop there. It will spread over all the kingdoms, her kingdoms so she's doing this imo much more for herself than for Jon/the North.

4 hours ago, Wendy said:

I wouldn't either. 

I wonder what the Northerners reaction is going to be when/if they find out that Jon really didn't need to bend the knee. She had pledge to help him already. That was a really stupid move. 

OK, so I did remember correctly.

[comanick]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

This is what I am unclear on. The Tarlys had not pledged themselves to Daenerys so is it treason for Randyll to not bend the knee? However in this case, I do think Jon might give second thought to killing Randyll if he saw it as treason. His own father, well uncle, was at least as guilty of treason as Randyll supposedly was.

It was treason. The tarlys are bannerman of house tyrell the wardens of the east. House tyrell recognizes danys claim to to throne so that means all her bannermen must recognize it as well. 

Its just like the northern houses banding behind ned stark in roberts rebellion. Aerys was king not robert 

What the tarlys did would be like the karstarks or umbers telling ned "we cant fight for you because areys is our king" and then sacking winterfell and killing house stark.

[Hana Chan]

17 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

There was really nobody ever seriously challenged Danny on equal footings in the time of relative peace.

Except that this is not a time of peace (relative or not). The entire North is mobilizing for the biggest war they've ever seen and Jon is trying to hold together various factions that want nothing to do with one another, but all of which are vital to giving them even a remote chance of success. Jon has been telling Sansa since they reunited just what the stakes are and she still doesn't seem to believe him. 

Jon didn't head south to work on his tan. He went to make alliances and bring support to their war effort. In return he's got Sansa undermining him at every turn rather than offering her support (at least in public). Sansa isn't with Jon for the benefit of their people. She's in conflict with him over preserving her power and influence. 

4 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

The Night King is as much her enemy as he is the North's. The North is her kingdom and the destruction won't stop there. It will spread over all the kingdoms, her kingdoms so she's doing this imo much more for herself than for Jon/the North.

Bending the knee to Dany had consequence that I don't think that Jon actively considered. Dany is no longer in the position of helping defend the North out of the goodness of her heart. Jon made it her responsibility. Part of the duties of a ruler is the defense of the realm if attacked. But acknowledging Dany as Queen, Jon placed that duty on her. 

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, terrymct said:

I wonder if Dany will ask if Jon is a real dragon aka can he withstand fire and heat?  Remember that she said her brother wasn't actually a dragon...a real Targaryan... because the molten gold killed him.

Just being the devil's advocate here.  How do we know Jon did not gain any of Targaryan power when he was resurrected from the dead?  Maybe the Stark side of him suppressed the Targaryan side up to his death..

[screamin]

Oh, one serious issue I forgot: Jon and Dany need dragon saddles with safety harnesses made for them STAT.

Edited April 15, 2019 by screamin

[shireenbamfatheon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, comanick said:

I think everyone who mentions this is taking danys threat out of context. Imo she was trying to say what Jon Snow should have been saying to/about Sansa since last season and that is you dont have to like me or even agree with my decisions but you have to show respect in public. Behind closed doors you can express whatever you like, we can then try to come some sort of median then we can go talk to our subordinates as a united front. Sansa has knack now for publicily calling out people above her and that is just not the way things are done. It doesnt help anything. It just causes dissent in a situation where we all need to be unified. 

The scene with dany talking to jon about Sansa is a prime example of how you should do things like this. She talked to him in private and basically said you need to talk to your sister before i have to. i am the queen you choose to rule over the north and at the very least she has to respect that in public. 

Any ruler would ask for that. 

From everything we've seen of the North, that is exactly how it's done. Everyone gathered in the great hall is either a highborn lord or someone important enough to hang around them and listen in on what's going on. Since the Northerners were introduced, we've seen them discuss things in public. Even all the way back in season one we had the Greatjon publicly question Robb's decisions to test him which would have gone very wrong for Robb if he hadn't been up to the task.

Really, Sansa calmly wondering about logistics was a lot milder than Lyanna outright calling Jon a disappointment and a nobody in front of everyone for bending the knee. You'd think Dany would take a lot more issue with that than Sansa being cold because she's just had to give up full autonomy over her own home to someone she doesn't know. Can't wait to see Dany being extremely courteous and warm once she finds out she's supposed to bend the knee to Jon. She'd better roll out the red carpet for him once they defeat Cersei. 

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Except that this is not a time of peace (relative or not). The entire North is mobilizing for the biggest war they've ever seen and Jon is trying to hold together various factions that want nothing to do with one another, but all of which are vital to giving them even a remote chance of success. Jon has been telling Sansa since they reunited just what the stakes are and she still doesn't seem to believe him. 

She did obey him in public.  She only challenged him in private.

What more could Sansa have done to support Jon?  The North had the mind of their own.  She was more of their manager/administrator than their ruler.  I mean everyone knew an ice zombies apocalypse was coming but a house still refused to come to Winterfell. 

Also, if Dany could not take a few sneers and cold comments from her subordinates (who like you point out want nothing to do with each other), pretty soon she is going to be a queen of ruins and ashes.

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

Oh, one serious issue I forgot: Jon and Dany need a dragon saddle with safety harness made for them STAT.

No need. The plot / TPTB will keep them safe and sound on those dragons...  😄

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, Timetoread said:

She has a better take on Cersei than Tyrion. 

Tyrion still believes that Cersei's strongest motivation is love of her children.  That rather changed when all of her (known) children died.  He is starting point with his sister is now wrong.

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Didn't Jon burn his hand when he saved Lord Commander Mormont from the wight?

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

That's what I was going to say. Either they will forget that happened or use that to show that Jon didn't inherit the special Targaryen superpower. 

Yeah, it will be curious to see how it's handled.  He has at least SOME of the Targaryen super powers in that the dragons like him.  You'd think the powers are a boxed set.

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I don't think Jon is just doing what Daenerys wants. However I don't believe she is doing this for the good of the North which is Jon's motivation. The Night King is as much her enemy as he is the North's. The North is her kingdom and the destruction won't stop there. It will spread over all the kingdoms, her kingdoms so she's doing this imo much more for herself than for Jon/the North.

OK, so I did remember correctly.

She is doing it for the North and the entire realm.  She could easily hop on Drogon and fly back to Meereen and hang out there until the whatever happens in Westeros is over.

I don't get where people get the idea that Dany is so selfish.  She could have taken the Iron Throne years ago, but she hung around in Esos to make sure the slaves she freed stayed free and held off attacking King's Landing because she didn't want to kill hundreds of thousands of people and be the Queen of the Ashes.   

[JanetSnakehole]

Does anyone else think that Cersei is gonna try to weaponize the dead? When Qyburn told her they had broken through The Wall and were headed South she smirked and said "Good." I wonder if she'll try to make an army of Mountains. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by JanetSnakehole