"The View": Week Of 3/11/2019

[film noire]

Abby was near-impossible to watch today. And her ignorance is appalling.  She knows nothing about the country she patriotically dry-humps like a stripper working the last shift at Tits R Us (or Trump mounting any flag). To insist that a nation founded via revolution, which has faced conservative opposition (and warfare) to every step forward -- an end to slavery, voting rights for POC and women,  social security, medicare/medicaid (and on and on,  down a long list of radical changes now considered mainstream) to think that all these epic changes were achieved by people sitting around in a womb-like state of comity  -- all nuanced, doncha know -- is embarrassing on her part.

She is the worst kind of fool, imo; ignorant, and loud about it.  

And in one segment she made me loathe her almost as much as I loathe John McCain's Daughter. Brava.

Edited March 11, 2019 by film noire

[Miss Slay]

44 minutes ago, film noire said:

Abby was near-impossible to watch today. And her ignorance is appalling.  She knows nothing about the country she patriotically dry-humps like a stripper working the last shift at Tits R Us (or Trump mounting any flag). To insist that a nation founded via revolution, which has faced conservative opposition (and warfare) to every step forward -- an end to slavery, voting rights for POC and women,  social security, medicare/medicaid (and on and on,  down a long list of radical changes now considered mainstream) to think that all these epic changes were achieved by people sitting around in a womb-like state of comity  -- all nuanced, doncha know -- is embarrassing on her part.

She is the worst kind of fool, imo; ignorant, and loud about it.  

And in one segment she made me loathe her almost as much as I loathe John McCain's Daughter. Brava.

Even worse, Abby and MM are supposed to represent the young (millennial) point of view. They both seem very old fashioned.

[Coffeewinewater]

Sunny said it best, people at this table are always giving messages to  Democrats, what about Republicans? What is your message for Republicans? Of course Abby said nothing.  So Abby can stfu! Miss moderate can tell her fellow Republicans how not to be assholes and quit acting like she's trying to give Democrats good advice. Shes trying to paint Democrats with the same big ridiculous misinformed brush as Meghan and Fox News. Her brother might be in the military and good for him but he does not own the right to talk about this country . We all have opinions and diffrent views depending on our own life. So again Stfu Abby.

[tinkerbell]

Huff post article - please read, it's what we've been saying on this forum

Meghan McCain Pushes Myth That Women’s Health Advocates Support Infanticide

Quote

Meghan McCain just equated abortion access with infanticide in a reckless Wall Street Journal op-ed...………..

……………..“Senator Sasse and Meaghan McCain are lying and making claims that are not based in medicine or reality. That’s why the medical community is overwhelmingly opposed to this legislation,” Roussell Newman said.

“This is yet another part of Republican leadership’s broader attacks on health care. The essay is nothing more than the tired lies, dangerous ideology, and offensive misinformation that politicians have used time and again to try to ban safe and legal abortion.”

and -  what Sunny tried to say (last week)  that Meghan talked right over, spitting out "disgusting!"  the important fact: 

Quote

Late-term abortions comprise only 1 percent of all abortions in the U.S. When these abortions occur, it’s usually due to extreme health reasons like the mother’s life is at risk or the child will be born with a genetic abnormality that makes life outside the womb nearly impossible. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by tinkerbell
ETA clarification

[geekburger]

Ana is amazing. I look forward to seeing her go in a topic that puts her at odds with the more liberal panelists to see how they all handle it. 

[MMEButterfly]

5 hours ago, HaaCHOO said:

I'm not going to research anything, but I'm pretty sure there are at least two women who were born to wealth and prestige--and whose father's were U.S. Presidents who seem to be able to understand (and help) the plight of the poor and struggling minorities:  Caroline Kennedy and Chelsea Clinton.  The Bush daughters seem pretty good too.  Abby IS a DENSE fool and so are TPTB at "The View" for giving her a platform.  EGAD!

Exactly, Abby poorly represents her "set." To the women you mention, I would add Amy Carter and Susan Ford (whom I have met.) Abby may be doing her best, but she seems dense. 

[Gemma Violet]

Wow, it was a delightful show today (minus Abby's foolishness).  Everyone seemed so at ease and relaxed.  Ana was cracking me up.  She's always funny, but today she outdid herself.  She and Joy on the same show are a laugh riot.

I agree with those who said Meghan's not sick.  She's pouting at home, with someone giving her a pep talk to bring her out of her funk.   

Edited March 12, 2019 by Gemma Violet

[Apprentice79]

2 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Wow, it was a delightful show today (minus Abby's foolishness).  Everyone seemed so at ease and relaxed.  Ana was cracking me up.  She's always funny, but today she outdid herself.  She and Joy on the same show are a laugh riot.

I agree with those who said Meghan's not sick.  She's pouting at home and her husband is giving her a pep talk to bring her out of her funk.   

Abby is getting some blowback for her lies on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She is trending on Twitter.

[SuzieSioux]

37 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Wow, it was a delightful show today (minus Abby's foolishness).  Everyone seemed so at ease and relaxed.  Ana was cracking me up.  She's always funny, but today she outdid herself.  She and Joy on the same show are a laugh riot.

I agree. The thing that is noticeable to me is that without Meghan there is room to breathe in the conversations, and people can joke without it being taken wrong or used for political point scoring. It makes things feel lighter and everyone looks happier. It's a shame Abby feels the need to take up the reigns left by Meghan a tad*, but other than that, it was much more relaxed.

*and she is even now clamping down elsewhere on the lie she was shown to have said today about the 10% thing despite people showing her the exact quote, so quite frankly I have no interest in her anymore, not that I had much in the first place. Her and Meghan talk so much on this show about being Strong Women. A sign of a Strong Woman, as far as I'm concerned, is knowing when to accept you were wrong about something, not just bulldozing over everyone else with more lies. Eh, it's all about money with them anyway. The politicians that are so scary to them are the ones they suspect may want them to pay more tax on the money they did nothing to earn.

Edited March 12, 2019 by SuzieSioux
Women/Woman error.

[TheGreenKnight]

What a great show today was, without Whoopi and especially Meghan there to suck up all the oxygen, derail the conversation, make everything about themselves, or (in Meh-gun’s case) scream over, roll her eyes and twitch her lips at everyone. No tension and the women actually seem to like one another. What a concept!

I definitely don’t agree with the things Abby said—or lies spewed, as the case may be—but at least she laughs and gets along with everyone else while she relays conservative talking points. She’s more likable than Elizabeth was and MUCH more likable than McCain. This should be the panel we have every day, maybe with one other co-host. If TPTB want another conservative to go with Abby that isn’t a NeverTrumper like Navarro (who, imo, adds a lot to the show with a somewhere-in-the-middle POV), there are plenty out there they could find who aren’t shrieking lunatics.

Joy's imitation of the lady who recognized her while she was shopping made me LMAO.

Edited March 12, 2019 by TheGreenKnight

[bannana]

Yes, why is Abby being defensive about being a "moderate"?  Who cares if AOC says that being moderate is "meh"?  She is not the boss of Abby, she was just giving an opinion.  And Abby is always touting that she is open to all points of view.  So I guess that is not the case anymore.

Abby is also sticking by her guns on the AOC quote, telling people it was not out of context and that they should watch the clip, but doesn't provide the clip!  I am including her tweet here because it directly relates to what she said on the show, and which Sunny called her out on.  

[TheGreenKnight]

12 hours ago, njbchlover said:

If Meghan is sick, who thinks that when she comes back (whether 24 hours or 24 days) she will claim she was also near death, so she can one-up Whoopi?    😉 

This is hilarious and would be true to character, too, lol. Maybe McCain saw all the outpouring of concern for Whoopi after she was absent so long and thought maybe we might like her if she was away long enough. Nope!

10 hours ago, After7Only said:

Sunny was talking about temperament when it comes to politicians, in which she is not.   She's on an entertainment show, so she makes jokes about her crazy jealous ways.   However, we've never really seen Sunny fly off the handle in her professional capacity, even when she's been pushed.   She's never had a MM level melt down, or even a Joy, Whoopi level frustration moment that I've seen.    Her professional temperament is pretty calm.    

The few times Sunny has become intense on this show, she's fierce. She really sticks the fork into someone without having to resort to shouting or histrionics.  That's what a real filleting looks like. I still remember that one time she and Paula Faris were interviewing a family who were there to talk about police brutality because their son had been shot unnecessarily. Paula asked a question implying that the son was in some way to blame for what transpired. When it was Sunny's turn to ask the family a question, she said flat-out that anyone who would ask the kind of misleading question Paula did is racist. Even though Whoopi hated Paula and shouted at her almost every day every topic for an entire season, that was probably the only time I'd ever seen Paula wrong-footed and angry before. LOL Sunny is in a masterclass all her own and she is the last woman I'd screw with.

[GoldenGirl90]

Abby could’ve taken the high road and apologized for misquoting AOC when Sunny provided the quote and its context in full. Instead, as we see from the above tweet and on the show earlier, she’s taking a page out of her bestie’s playbook and doing the “if Democrats want to run on [insert quote taken out of context], go ahead, it’s a gift to Republicans!” Smh.

[DebbieM4]

11 hours ago, Alexis2291 said:

. Hush, Abby. You're drunk on stupid this morning.

She really was, and I was embarrassed for her.  She's ill-informed and really just not that bright.  She was getting so adamant about something or other, but even she didn't know what she was talking about.   It would have done her a world of good to open her ears and listen, but she was like a dog with a bone.  If anyone doubted her lack of intelligence and awareness, I think today sealed the deal. 

10 hours ago, Haleth said:

Thank goodness for Sunny pushing back on Abby’s questionable AOC quote. And thank goodness Mopey Meghan isn’t there to tag team with Abby. But it’s rich for Sunny to talk about how temperament matters when she flies off the handle so easily. 

I agree with those who have said that Sunny always acts in a professional manner on this show.  We've seen her control herself and ride out several storms with Meghan while maintaining her composure, and that's no small feat.  However, I did think it was sort of interesting timing that so recently she was bragging about her hot Latin temper and making a joke out of being so out of control that she throws things with the intent of destroying them - and then today she was all up on her high horse about how temperament matters.  

10 hours ago, Cementhead said:

Too lazy to turn off View Your Deal.  Lady during the key ring bit "Isn't this incredible, Sunny?"  No, it's not.  There is nothing incredible about keys.  Random insipid words "wow!"  "amazing!"  "awesome!"  UGH

Sunny and Gretta are terrible together.   Sunny is the worst actress ever, and none of her "Wows!" and gasping come across as the slightest bit credible.  She carries on as though everything is innovative and amazing.  The two of them together are like snake-oil salesmen.  I think Gretta is annoying, but she's much more annoying with Sunny than she's ever been with anyone else.  I thought Sara did a good job paired with her.  That whole segment is a time-waster, IMO, but Sara and Gretta together were at least fun sometimes.  The Sunny/Gretta combo is faked and forced, and makes me want to run from the room screaming.

9 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

I agree with Sunny.  Women go for younger men because yes men their own age are looking for younger women.  And I speak from experience.  Did I date men young enough to be my son?  No.  But I do date men younger than me.

I agree with her too, but she said it as though it's something new.  I've been hearing that for decades.  

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was referring to her breaking thing when she’s mad at Manny. I agree she was specifying politicians but I think if she’s going to say “temperament matters” when it comes professional behavior, she should check her own reactions when it comes to her personal behavior. 

Agreed.  It's probably best if she stays away from the topic of temperament.

[Lilaclily]

It would be so nice if maturity would some days cross paths with Meghan and Abby. Meghan"s behaviour during the ladies talking of Ana's wedding was her behaviour on the show. Watch the tape, she does not say a word, smile or participate in a general discussion about a peer. It was a discussion of courtesy and she could not bring herself to participate. Immaturity at its height.She cannot deliver her points of information calmly and clearly as most well educated, confident women would: again height of immaturity. And most of all she cannot bring herself to listen to a rebuttal or differing view point. Again: immaturity. And her constant it happened to me, I have a friend, my family, my dad, (  there is a time for anecdotes) but not every topic, everyday. Hopefully her handlers help her review tape and work on being a more effective interviewer host. It will not make her point less important!

[tinkerbell]

according to Abby, AOC is the face of the Democratic party based on the number of twitter followers.  THAT is how she backs up looking at AOC as representative of ALL of the party. 

[DebbieM4]

14 minutes ago, tinkerbell said:

according to Abby, AOC is the face of the Democratic party based on the number of twitter followers.  THAT is how she backs up looking at AOC as representative of ALL of the party. 

I'm so glad you mentioned that!  I laughed when she said it.

[ChiCricket]

5 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

I agree with those who said Meghan's not sick.  She's pouting at home, with someone giving her a pep talk to bring her out of her funk.   

I thought maybe Meghan drank a lot after getting dragged on Twitter, and really was "sick" (majorly hungover.)  

[WonderWuman73]

Damn Abby was and is just too stupid for words. She'll say something moronic and dumb then tried to backpedal just enough to tilt her head and smile. Ive been so busy rolling my eyes at all atrocious things Megans spews that when Abby is without her bestie, her stupidity really stood out. 

[bannana]

Here's the clip.  AOC is not particularly articulate, so hence the confusion.  

AOC garbage comments

[tribeca]

I can’t imagine eating a salad with a comb. If someone thinks cleaning that is awful they would have never survived my last boss. 

[blondiec0332]

7 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

according to Abby, AOC is the face of the Democratic party based on the number of twitter followers.  THAT is how she backs up looking at AOC as representative of ALL of the party. 

We are living in sad scary times when having a large social media following means you are the de facto head of a political party.  I mean who could even imagine such a thing.  Oh wait......

[OnTime]

Meghan is back!

UGH.

Didn't take long for "my father".

[Cementhead]

Wtf is with Joy getting bleeped all the time now? 

[GoldenGirl90]

Abby needs to stop being a smart ass. Telling Joy that the only way for Democrats to get Trump out of the White House is to win in 2020 is stupid. What a concept! What insight! Smh.

And she also got smart with Sunny - asking her will she be satisfied if Mueller's report doesn't reveal anything significant enough to get Trump out of office (something to that effect). I liked Sunny's response - that she'll be satisfied when the process works the way it's supposed to work, which includes Congress doing their jobs and abiding the Constitution should Mueller's report directly pin Trump to illegal activity involving Russia (also not verbatim but I get what she was saying).

It's time for her to go on maternity leave, like yesterday.

All I hear from Meghan so far is me, me, me, my father, me, voters like me... 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Alexis2291
Meant effect, not affect

[Cementhead]

Today's show ...... ZZZZzzzzzz ...... wake me up when it is over, please.  Thanks.

[1SimonMom]

Ugh she is back - F!  She is already looking at Joy with disdain.

Yesterday I said lets drink to a world to the View without Elsa, now I am saying if I owned a bar I would buy everyone of our PV View family a drink as a way of saying thank you for helping each other get through having to watch Elsa turn evil red when she does not get her way, being self entitled, throw a tantrum and be rude to each other so we can watch intelligent people like Ana, Sunny talk about issues from both sides and Joy for being the best moderator since Meredith but then again Meredith did not have to handle Elsa.

[TheGreenKnight]

I agree with Sunny that the House should do its job regardless of whether the Senate refuses to do theirs.

Meghan interrupted Abby to take credit for how well-dressed Abby is…. The woman is deranged.

[OnTime]

So did Abby let the cat out of the bag that someone is coming on tomorrow with Colton, The Bachelor?

Doesn't she realize most of this show is scripted?

[Cementhead]

14 minutes ago, OnTime said:

Doesn't she realize most of this show is scripted?

Probably not.  Didn't she recently say she lost sleep or had her weekend ruined by something that happened on The Bachelor?  Oy.

And also, as soon as The Bachelor talk starts, I hit the mute button.  I have never seen one episode ever and hate that ABC makes their talk shows discuss it. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Cementhead

[Apprentice79]

13 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I agree with Sunny that the House should do its job regardless of whether the Senate refuses to do theirs.

Meghan interrupted Abby to take credit for how well-dressed Abby is…. The woman is deranged.

Nancy Pelosi never said that the House would not do their jobs as mandated by the constitution in conducting oversight. She said that they will not impeach unless, there is proof of malfeasance that cannot be disputed. She also stressed bipartisanship in her statement.  Sunny was conflating oversight with impeachment. Impeachment is a political process not a criminal one.  Also, the Republicans will never convict him in the Senate. Sunny even said that she doubted that the Republicans would ever convict him under any circumstance.  Joy even said that Clinton's impeachment made him even more popular. So, Nancy is being smart and strategic. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Apprentice79

[OnTime]

12 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

15 minutes ago, OnTime said:

Doesn't she realize most of this show is scripted?

Probably not.  Didn't she recently say she lost sleep or had her weekend ruined by something that happened on The Bachelor?  Oy

Well, since The Bachelor is on Monday night, that couldn't have ruined her weekend.

I think she said she loses sleep before she has to fly someone, I can't remember. She drains the energy out of me!!

[blondiec0332]

For here on out hearing any R Kelly song is going to make people think of the allegations against him.  If someone wants to listen to him in private fine whatever your choice but for his music to be played in public I'm going to say probably not.

[Haleth]

19 minutes ago, OnTime said:

So did Abby let the cat out of the bag that someone is coming on tomorrow with Colton, The Bachelor?

Doesn't she realize most of this show is scripted?

I’ve never watched an episode of the show but when I saw the clip of the guy jumping the fence with a camera conveniently ready I rolled my eyes. I’m calling it (again, never watched)— the girl who rejected him will have a change of heart and they’ll both be on tomorrow. Romantic Hollywood ending.

And in a month they’ll go their separate ways. 🙄

10 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

Nancy Pelosi never said that the House would not do their jobs as mandated by the constitution in conducting oversight. She said that they will not impeach until there is proof of malfeasance that cannot be disputed.  Sunny was conflating oversight with impeachment. Impeachment is a political process not a criminal one.  Also, the Republicans will never convict him in the Senate. Sunny even said that she doubted that the Republicans would ever convict him under any circumstance.  Joy even said that Clinton's impeachment made him even more popular. So, Nancy is being smart and strategic. 

Exactly. She knows that to impeach now would be a mistake. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Haleth

[Cementhead]

Just now, OnTime said:

Well, since The Bachelor is on Monday night, that couldn't have ruined her weekend.

I think she said she loses sleep before she has to fly someone, I can't remember. She drains the energy out of me!!

Lol!!  Ok, thanks.  I think it was Meghan who had her weekend ruined once by a tv show, now that I think of it.  And I think it was last week that Abby was very upset about this Colton fellow for some reason or another.  I (A) avoid all things The Bachelor like the plague and (B) zone out when Abby talks so maybe I should just stick to commenting on things I pay more attention to.  lol.

[OnTime]

2 minutes ago, Haleth said:

21 minutes ago, OnTime said:

So did Abby let the cat out of the bag that someone is coming on tomorrow with Colton, The Bachelor?

Doesn't she realize most of this show is scripted?

I’ve never watched an episode of the show but when I saw the clip of the guy jumping the fence with a camera conveniently ready I rolled my eyes. I’m calling it (again, never watched)— the girl who rejected him will have a change of heart and they’ll both be on tomorrow. Romantic Hollywood ending.

And in a month they’ll go their separate ways. 🙄

Exactly!  The producers just put a new spin on the ending.....

Colton can still propose, Neil Lane can still get his diamonds on TV and Abby can still sit beside Colton. Ana won't care!

[Blissfool]

5 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

For here on out hearing any R Kelly song is going to make people think of the allegations against him.  If someone wants to listen to him in private fine whatever your choice but for his music to be played in public I'm going to say probably not.

Yesterday, I was sitting in my dentist's chair in the middle of a procedure when a Michael Jackson song played on their sound system. I immediately thought of Abby saying she would walk out of a public place if an MJ song came on. Personal dilemma...do I tell the dentist to stop and bust out of that office? But then I remembered that Abby calmly remained sitting when they showed a video of MJ singing in the next segment so all is good, so drill, carry on.

What's up with Cole Sprouse's hair? Too dark, long,  an greasy. Also, he sat hunched over the whole interview!

[blondiec0332]

4 minutes ago, Blissfool said:

Yesterday, I was sitting in my dentist's chair in the middle of a procedure when a Michael Jackson song played on their sound system. I immediately thought of Abby saying she would walk out of a public place if an MJ song came on

I'm glad you brought that up. So last week Abby says she would walk out if a MJ song was playing. And today she is saying you can't blame anyone in that church for not getting outraged about RK being played.

[GoldenGirl90]

So remember when they were talking about Amy Klobachur eating her salad with a comb yesterday? Here’s Ana, trying to eat a salad with a comb. She’s so silly! 😂

[deirdra]

Nice salad-eating, Ana, looks totally normal with that kind of comb.  I was imagining Amy using a full comb with 6" of tines.

Just now, deirdra said:

Nice salad-eating, Ana, looks totally normal with that kind of comb.  I was imagining AmyK using a full comb with 6" of tines.

[Orillia]

1 hour ago, OnTime said:

So did Abby let the cat out of the bag that someone is coming on tomorrow with Colton, The Bachelor?

I'm sure there will be an extra demand for tickets now . I love how Joy and Ana are so uninterested .

[njbchlover]

What happened to Idris Elba?  Wasn't he supposed to be on today's show?  

Also, just because....why, oh why, can't Meghan laugh with the other ladies?  When they were all making fun of Trump's mistake with calling Tim Cook as "Tim Apple" - they were all laughing and making jokes about it (even Abby) - and aside from Meghan's little story about the book she wrote (seriously - she wrote a book WITH a comedian?) and the "rapport/rappaport" comment, she sat there with her usual stoneface.  Lighten up, girl - life is too short to be soooo serious all the time!  

Edited March 12, 2019 by njbchlover

[Medicine Crow]

Joy was on a roll today!!!

(Whisper:  I think she luuuvs it when Miss Meggie is all pissy & does it to aggravate her.)

... & yes, what happened to Idris Elba???

[blondiec0332]

10 minutes ago, njbchlover said:

Also, just because....why, oh why, can't Meghan laugh with the other ladies?  When they were all making fun of Trump's mistake with calling Tim Cook by "Tim Apple" - they were all laughing and making jokes about it (even Abby) - and aside from Meghan's little story about the book she wrote (seriously - she wrote a book WITH a comedian?) and the "rapport/rappaport" comment, she sat there with her usual stoneface.  Lighten up, girl - life is too short to be soooo serious all the time!  

Her story about using the wrong word isn't the same as calling someone by the wrong name.  Even when telling an anecdote Meghan fucks it up.

[RedheadZombie]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:55 PM, blondiec0332 said:

She is just as bad as Meghan. She just isn't so blatant about it.  But today she showed  her true colors.  Even when confronted with the quote in context she still dismissed it as AOC hating America.  

And Joy was right to bring up Steve King.  And no Abby it is not wrong to bring  up an example of the right doing something offensive when the left is accused of doing something offensive. This was not an example of false equivalency.  This was Joy showing the hypocrisy of calling out AOC (for something she did not say) and ignoring Steve King.

There was another time when Meghan was absent that I noticed Abby took over Meghan's strident voice.  Is it possible that the producer pushes them in that direction?

[Apprentice79]

56 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

There was another time when Meghan was absent that I noticed Abby took over Meghan's strident voice.  Is it possible that the producer pushes them in that direction?

Rumor has it that the show brought a coach to get Abby to become more vocal and strident. Jenny McCarthy said she was criticize for not being a strident conservative something that she is not by the way. I guess since she is a blonde they wanted her to play that role. 

[RedheadZombie]

Did Abby really pronounce Cole's Riverdale character as "Judge-head"?

[falltime]

8 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Did Abby really pronounce Cole's Riverdale character as "Judge-head"?

I heard that too, my closed captions wrote jughead correctly though.

[TheGreenKnight]

5 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

Sunny even said that she doubted that the Republicans would ever convict him under any circumstance. 

She also said that it doesn't matter to her what the Senate does, that the House shouldn't refuse to do the right thing just because they know the Senate will not go through with it. The difference is, as Joy said, Bill Clinton's "crime" was lying about an affair, which is nothing in comparison.

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, Blissfool said:

What's up with Cole Sprouse's hair? Too dark, long,  an greasy. Also, he sat hunched over the whole interview!

I noticed that, too. Sort of disrespectful to me.