S02.E17: Breakdown

[Trini]

Quote

Dr. Shaun Murphy is desperate to join the team on a dangerous procedure involving a patient's tumor removal. However, having been removed by Dr. Jackson Han (guest star Daniel Dae Kim) from the surgery team, he must use his talents to help figure out the cause of an infant's injuries.

Airdate: March 4, 2019

[tkc]

Wow, that ending was hard to watch.

[greekmom]

OMG… Dr. Dick has no bounds. The opening scene. Not only did he sell out Shaun but he also is so freaking stubborn about it.  I hope legal gets on his butt and throws him out.

I hate Lea at this time trying to convince Shaun that he should stay in pathology.

Hopefully Glassman’s cancer storyline is over.

Laura was a mean bitch. Lim was just following protocol.

I hope Dr. Dick is escorted out by security. He's not a real doctor. He's a class A manipulator

[Annber03]

His toy scalpel :(! No!

Oh, Shaun... That ending. Damn. One minute I'm sitting here rooting for him as he stands up to Han, the next my heart's breaking for him. And things are apparently only going to get worse for him next week. 

I was hoping, if anybody showed up at the end, it'd be Claire, and I'm so glad it was her. I love how supportive she's been of Shaun through all of this (I approve of her walkout idea!), and she's just the right kind of calming presence he needs. I loved that she didn't push him to talk or make him uncomfortable by trying to touch him or anything of that sort. She just sat next to him, offering her quiet support :). 

As for Han, I just...don't know what it's going to take for him to realize where Shaun truly belongs. I mean, he even allowed him into the OR and appreciated his input on that surgery, and that's still not enough, apparently. Hopefully he'll finally see the light at some point. 

Um. So. On a significantly happier note, I love that Shaun got to be involved in helping out with both of the big cases this episode, and that both cases turned out well because of those good ideas. And I liked Claire having some good ideas of her own as well. 

And yay for Glassman's cancer being gone! I hesitate to be too celebratory, because with this show, who knows what could happen down the line, but for now, I'll take this good news. Hopefully it helps significantly improve Glassman's mood and attitude as well. 

Also, for some reason, the way Shaun said, "Yes" when Melendez asked if his not having a girlfriend matched up with Shaun's general assessment of him gave me a really good laugh :D. 

Okay! So. Next week looks intense. 

[rhys]

Too bad Shaun can't be half time surgery & half pathology.

[Pop Tart]

I was so annoyed at the mom’s comments to Lim about how she didn’t blame her for reporting her for abuse because she doesn’t know what love is like she does (because she’s a mom). Irritated by both aspects of that, first that because she’s a mom she loves her baby too much to hurt her (even though mom’s do all the time), and second because I hate that whole “you haven’t loved until you’re a parent”. I know she expanded on that by saying that Lim doesn’t want to give up control and thus can’t love, but still bugged.

I so wanted Shaun to say “I’m a surgeon” one more time and then say “and I’ll have my lawyer give you a call” then walk out.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Pop Tart

[Lady Calypso]

Goddamnit, Lea. I get that she was trying to help Shaun accept that Pathology might be an ok option, but her whole "this again" was annoying. Yes, Lea, you know Shaun doesn't give up on things easily. Here's the thing; I get that Lea is trying to help Shaun. In her eyes, she thinks that Shaun won't be able to switch back to a surgical residency and I think that she thinks she can help convince Shaun that Pathology isn't so bad. But she doesn't seem to really accept that Shaun is depressed in Pathology. And he clearly isn't AS good in Pathology since, as we saw with Lim's friend, the tests may have been right but the diagnosis of abuse was wrong. 

Oh, Morgan. I've not missed this side of you. Her defending Han feels more like the show wanting one character in Han's corner, but we now know he really IS an antagonist. I knew it before, but him blackmailing the board was definitely crossing a line. 

Melendez and Lim's worry about coming out about their relationship to people was alright, I guess. Lim's friend was kind of mean, though. I guess that's what friends do; they can be brutally honest. But since we only JUST met this friend, her words about Lim not loving anyone was cruel. 

Yay Melendez for calling Shaun in to surgery despite Han telling him not to. It does suck that Shaun still couldn't help with the surgery, though. Freddie Highmore rocked this entire episode. Shaun's pure anguish because he couldn't do surgery was clear as day. He was so quiet throughout the entire episode. Han may have started to really break him. 

Shut up, Glassman. I get that he's scared and his reaction has always been anger, but it doesn't mean I like it. I do like him apologizing now that he realizes that he does it, but it's still not fun to watch when 60% of his scenes this season have been getting angry at everyone. Next season, he needs to get back to working at the hospital. 

As for the ending, Shaun definitely took the wrong approach in confronting Han like that. I think Glassman's advice about being assertive was a little to on the nose. I do think Shaun would benefit from some therapy, in all honesty. Shaun absolutely lost it at the end. However, I still find Han way worse and more wrong than Shaun. I actually had to mute my TV at one point at the end because I knew things wouldn't turn out well for Shaun. I'm super glad it was Claire who was there and offered moral support, even just by sitting next to him.

[Trini]

I'll start with something positive: Yay, Claire! Standing up for Shaun, coming up with the surgery idea, and helping Shaun at the end.
 

15 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Laura was a mean bitch. Lim was just following protocol. 

Seriously! Well, that friendship is over. 

Lim and Meledez freaking out about whether Shaun saw them or not was great. I'm still kinda thinking that he saw them. Maybe.

So did Han blackmail/threaten the review board(or whatever) to keep the doctors? Did I get that right?

I really don't like this direction with Shaun story. WHERE ARE HIS LAWYERS? If Jared were here I bet he could help fix this.

[thuganomics85]

So, the whole incident involving the quarantine goes away simply by Han more or less threatening the board with a P.I. that will undercover any embarrassing secrets they might have.  Oh one hand, yay for Melendez, Lim, and Shaun!  On the other hand, that certainly shows that Han has a very manipulating and dirty side to him.

I knew where everything was heading, but that was still hard to watch.  Again, judging from the way Daniel Dae Kim is playing him, I really do think Han has deluded himself into thinking he is doing the right thing and he doesn't take pleasure in hurting Shaun.  But I still find him to be completely in the wrong and, if anything, is showing himself to have a huge phobia towards autism, which really puts him in a horrible light.  Again, both Melendez and Andrews had their own problems as well when Shaun first started out, but Han's putting them both to shame in that department.  In the end, I think Claire more or less nailed it in another conversation, when she pointed out that Shaun still had three more years as a resident.  If he truly wanted to be good at his job, Han should let Shaun continue his residency, and if he truly doesn't feel like he's improved enough, then he could possibly consider a job change for Shaun.  But he's just jumping the gun here, due to his own prejudice views and opinions.  Damn, he is so frustrating to watch.  I can only hope someone will find a way to counter his reign.

I really did not envy Lim throughout her storyline.  Laura is right that Lim probably struggles with allowing herself to be vulnerable to love, but Lim still had to be objective, and the evidence certainly pointed towards abuse with the baby.  And Lim still tried to run extra tests and even didn't flat out accused her, but simply took the necessary steps with calling the police (and if she didn't, I'm sure I'm sure Carly would have anyway.)  Still, a pretty rough one for her.  But at least it lead to her and Melendez going public, which makes me happy since I was kind of tired of that thing.

After a few episodes of not minding Reznick, she was back to her obnoxious self with her agreeing with Han about Shaun (yuck!) and basically kissing his ass (extra yuck!)  But it all led to Claire being the one to find the solution, and I got to enjoy Reznick's angry, jealous face again.  Ha!  Enjoy the loss, Reznick!  Go Claire!

As usual, I love while Claire and Reznick debate about all of the ongoing drama, Park's just off to the side all "Pay no attention to me, folks!  I'm just going to stare at this screen!  Look at all the pretty colors!  So pretty... wait, is that tumor getting bigger?!"

Looks like Glassman's cancer is gone (for now?!)  Richard Schiff did a great job in all of his scenes.

Probably doesn't need to be said, but Freddie Highmore crushed all of his scenes tonight.  Hope he gets an Emmy nomination this go around.

Season finale next week and if the previews are any indication, it's going to get a lot worst before it gets better!

[possibilities]

Lea doesn't believe in Shaun.

Han blackmailed the review board??? I'd think that would come back to bite him. It shows, though, that he's an immoral, insecure, manipulator, not a confident, skilled, manager across the board, not only wrt Shaun.

I look forward to Resnick's philosophy of ruthless dog eat dogism resulting in her being cut from the program, since she seems to be the one with the least skills. Why is it that the least impressive people are sometimes the ones with the least self-awareness??

I was nauseated by Glassman's refusal to take no for an answer. It's not sentimental foolery, it's another sign of his general obnoxiousness. Can you imagine if every patient gave her a token like that? She'd be living in the boneyard of thousands of other people's memorabilia.

Shaun has much more patience than Glassman, though. G lost his cool waiting for his food. Shaun lost his cool over losing his career.

If nobody starts a lawsuit soon, I'm going to have a hard time forgiving the show.

[Trini]

3 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, the whole incident involving the quarantine goes away simply by Han more or less threatening the board with a P.I. that will undercover any embarrassing secrets they might have.  Oh one hand, yay for Melendez, Lim, and Shaun!  On the other hand, that certainly shows that Han has a very manipulating and dirty side to him.

Not just this, but why even introduce this arc anyway if it just concludes with two short scenes?

I wonder if DD Kim joining the cast changed some of the stories they wanted to tell. (Maybe Shaun was going to end up dismissed in a different way originally?)

[mrsbagnet]

I haven't been watching this series for long. What was the case that the board was deciding at the beginning of the episode?

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

I was so annoyed at the mom’s comments to Lim about how she didn’t blame her for reporting her for abuse because she doesn’t know what love is like she does (because she’s a mom). Irritated by both aspects of that, first that because she’s a mom she loves her baby too much to hurt her (even though mom’s do all the time), and second because I hate that whole “you haven’t loved until you’re a parent”. I know she expanded on that by saying that Lim doesn’t want to give up control and thus can’t love, but still bugged.

Yes! That rubbed me the wrong way, too. 

58 minutes ago, Trini said:

Not just this, but why even introduce this arc anyway if it just concludes with two short scenes?

I'm wondering about that, too. Unless somebody will mention Han's threats down the line and that will affect his job at the hospital/reopen the investigation somehow? 

[possibilities]

I have a hard time believing that entire room full of people would go along with han's threats. My hope is that they all left to go immediately to take legal action against Han himself.

And then Shaun and the other docs under review fight for themselves directly, and win, without Han in the picture, while also putting their complaints against Han himself on record.

[bros402]

So, uh, that was the hospital's lawyer with Han at the medical board thing, right? Hopefully that lawyer tells his clients (The hospital, not Han) the shady crap Han did to get that hearing to disappear.

Han just keeps digging himself a deeper and deeper hole with regards to Shaun, like seriously, he said at least one discriminatory thing in front of witnesses this episode - and that was just in his office with Lim and Melendez there (since I have a feeling their opinion would be valued more than the opinion of Shaun's fellow residents - as they might want to help him/cover for him). If they don't mention that legal action is even possible next episode, this show is ridiculous - they should at least *mention* it is a possibility.

Lim's friend is a moron - doctors are mandated reporters, the second they suspect abuse, they have to call, doesn't matter if it is their friend or a random patient off the street - if they suspect abuse, CPS gets called (Probably through the hospital social worker). 

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I was nauseated by Glassman's refusal to take no for an answer. It's not sentimental foolery, it's another sign of his general obnoxiousness. Can you imagine if every patient gave her a token like that? She'd be living in the boneyard of thousands of other people's memorabilia.

Shaun has much more patience than Glassman, though. G lost his cool waiting for his food. Shaun lost his cool over losing his career.

Cancer sucks. Scanxiety is a very real thing that a lot of people with cancer get waiting for test results. Everything feels like it is on edge in the time you wait to get those results. You feel like you have lost all of your agency and ability to choose anything while you wait to hear results. It's not a matter of patience. 

Also, oncologists (and their staff) like baked goods! Preferably bought from a bakery in the area, but if they know a patient (or their caregiver) if a good baker, they always appreciate tasty snacks (My local oncologist, his staff *loves* when my mom bakes cookies).

One more thing - doctors don't really say cured - especially since this is just one clear scan (They'd probably do another in 2-3 months, not 6), they would say there is no evidence of disease.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

Shaun has much more patience than Glassman, though. G lost his cool waiting for his food.

Seconding what bros402 said. Glassman wasn't just waiting for his food; he was waiting anxiously for test results. That kind of wait is pretty agonizing. From the point of "hmm... we think this might be cause for concern; we'd like to check it out," to getting biopsied, and then waiting for results, I had about 5 weeks of torturous worrying, and I didn't even end up having cancer (thank goodness). I can only imagine how stressful it would be for a person waiting to hear if their cancer was gone or not, after all that treatment and the hell that goes with it.

I haven't always loved Glassman's attitude of pushing people away, but I did love the bakery lady telling him the truth about his behavior. And when Richard Schiff cries, I cry. He really got to me, when he tried not to break down in front of his doctor, after he got his good news. 

Freddie was fantastic as well. I couldn't help but cry for him when he lost it in Han's office and again in the locker room, and when Claire sat next to him. Just gut-wrenching.

[The Wild Sow]

3 hours ago, bros402 said:

One more thing - doctors don't really say cured - especially since this is just one clear scan (They'd probably do another in 2-3 months, not 6), they would say there is no evidence of disease.

Yes.  NED. Not "cured."  And yet again...doesn't this hospital employ any radiologists?  Or, you know, imaging technologists?

Guess my whole department is out of a job if the surgeons/pathologists are doing their own MRI's!

[Good Doctor Fan]

That was a great show last night!  Loved seeing Shaun save the day - twice!  

At first, it was great seeing him stand up for himself.... then... I felt so bad .....

You could see his frustration building and it's hard to blame him.  How many people must he save for Han to give him his job back?!  I agree with him that he earned it.

Like others said, it was great to see Clair at the end supporting Shaun.  She's a great friend, and we didn't see enough of them together this season.

Looks like next week could be a rough one.... 

[MVN-Hokies]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Also, for some reason, the way Shaun said, "Yes" when Melendez asked if his not having a girlfriend matched up with Shaun's general assessment of him gave me a really good laugh :D. 

I loved that part too! Melendez is a terrible liar 😃 It will be interesting to see Andrews reaction to finding out about Lim and Melendez. Lim mentioned rules about coworkers dating, but she and Melendez never even brought that up when they were deciding what to do. 

I could be totally wrong on this, but I wouldn't think Han could fire Shaun for having an outburst and needing to be escorted from his office. Yes, some sort of disciplinary action clearly needs to be taken, but can he really fire him? As many have said, obviously, Shaun needs to be involving a lawyer or someone to help since he is being discriminated against. I'm definitely frustrated that no one has mentioned this at all. 

[greekmom]

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, the whole incident involving the quarantine goes away simply by Han more or less threatening the board with a P.I. that will undercover any embarrassing secrets they might have.  Oh one hand, yay for Melendez, Lim, and Shaun!  On the other hand, that certainly shows that Han has a very manipulating and dirty side to him.

I knew where everything was heading, but that was still hard to watch.  Again, judging from the way Daniel Dae Kim is playing him, I really do think Han has deluded himself into thinking he is doing the right thing and he doesn't take pleasure in hurting Shaun. 

I personally think that Shaun's transfer to pathology was part of the deal that was cut in that room. 

I still think Dr. Dick is taking great pleasure in his treatment of Shaun and taking pleasure in being right that Shaun doesn't belong in surgery but in pathology.  The problem is that Shaun just saved 2 of Dr. Dick's patients.  

What would have happened if all those patients that Shaun treated over the last year were not treated by Shaun? They would be dead and their families would have lawsuits against the hospital for wrongful diagnosis. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Freddie Highmore is doing some incredible acting, because when he was sitting in the floor at the end, it was so intense that I had to look away.  I suppose this was a good episode for Claire, but, I haven't gotten over her total unprofessional behavior of imposing her own beliefs on patients yet.  So, still not a fan.  Glad she respected the wishes of this patient to have the tumor removed, regardless of the risks.

I'm an attorney, but, not an employment attorney, so, while I am inclined to think Shaun needs to consult with one to get his legal rights. I"m not certain what those rights are. Did he sign a waiver waiving certain rights?

This article was really helpful.  It addresses Due Process for residents.  The Resident described below was let go for alleged lack of knowledge, but, it appears that Due Process has not been followed with Shaun.  So, why haven't his friends suggested an attorney or at least appealing Han's decision? Odd. 

Quote

Medical residents and academic due process: Know your rights

https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2018/05/medical-residents-and-academic-due-process-know-your-rights.html

If Shaun had seen Lim earlier, then, he's so open, he would likely have just said, I saw you in the car kissing, but, the traffic was busy, so, I didn't cross the street to say hi. Pretending something that didn't happen isn't his thing. 

I have definite beliefs about Glassman.  I now realize what they are portraying with this character....imo. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[MVN-Hokies]

Another thing I noticed during the episode was Lim somewhat casually mentioning that she does want to have children. And that she has no plan to stop riding her motorcycle if/when she does have a child. I've said it before, but I love how strong of a character Lim is. She won't back down/change her ways, she's confident in who she is. 

[Madding crowd]

Sunnybebe could you share your thoughts about Glassman? I am interested. I wonder why no one told Shaun about going to Human Resources or hiring an attorney. I don’t believe he was given any written warnings or even told what he did wrong.

I still feel that Shaun might feel less stressed and be able to control himself more in pathology but like all of us he has dreams and his talents are leading him to surgery. Shaun is a smart guy and by him not even asking about his legal rights they made him seem a bit childlike in his he scene in Han’s office.

[AriAu]

Quote

The problem is that Shaun just saved 2 of Dr. Dick's patients.

Did he save them as a surgeon or as a pathologist/medical researcher? Han said that he finds Shaun valuable and wanted him to stay and become a doctor, just not a surgeon.

I know that this is an unpopular opinion, and yes, there are a myriad of legal issues (including due process and reasonable accommodations under the ADA etc), but Han was not wrong in what he said at the end-Shaun's actions were making his case-Shaun was unable to communicate clearly and was ultimately unable to control his emotions. Han was not alone in these concerns-Dr. Andrews was concerned about this right from the start and brought it up during the hearings of whether to allow Shaun in the residency program. 

Quote

I still think Dr. Dick is taking great pleasure in his treatment of Shaun and taking pleasure in being right that Shaun doesn't belong in surgery but in pathology. 

I did not think he was taking great pleasure in moving Shaun. I think he believes that he is doing what is best for the hospital and the patients.....altho he is a dick and does like being right ALL THE TIME, but that doesn't make him that much different than all doctors!

I think that the criticism of Lea is correct for saying "this again", but I think that she sees what Han sees and what many patients might see-does his condition prevent him from being a great surgeon and amybe his skills would be better suited to being in pathology.  

Freddie Highmore does a wonderful job and he was exceptional tonight.

[rmontro]

25 minutes ago, AriAu said:

I know that this is an unpopular opinion, and yes, there are a myriad of legal issues (including due process and reasonable accommodations under the ADA etc), but Han was not wrong in what he said at the end-Shaun's actions were making his case-Shaun was unable to communicate clearly and was ultimately unable to control his emotions.

It's hard to argue with that.  Not many people can berate the Chief of Surgery and get to keep their jobs.  I'm still wondering about Shaun's options here.  Could he have quit or transferred elsewhere?

We were just talking about the quarantine investigation last episode, I didn't expect that to be resolved by Dr. Han blackmailing them!

Liked how Claire supported Shaun at the end just by being there, and not saying anything.

The friend who criticized Dr. Lim probably gave her a lot to think about, but it's doubtful that she is going to be able to change much, if any.  Or at least that would likely be the case in real life, and especially for someone as busy with her career as Dr. Lim.

[possibilities]

42 minutes ago, AriAu said:

Han was not wrong in what he said at the end-Shaun's actions were making his case-Shaun was unable to communicate clearly and was ultimately unable to control his emotions.

When Claire was being sexually harassed, she stayed calm, but if she had lost her temper and yelled at the guy doing it, would it have been disqualifying for a position as a surgeon? Or would we have understood that she was being systematically mistreated and she'd finally had enough?

Shaun was being systematically mistreated and he finally got angry. It would have been more effective to get legal representation, but what he did was not unprovoked, and Han is actually the one who is at fault here, from every possible legal and moral angle.

Yelling at your boss (or anyone) at work is not usually a savvy move. But if Han had, say, grabbed Shaun's crotch, and Shaun yelled at him to stop it, it would not have been Shaun who was in the wrong.

Likewise, in the current situation, Han is at fault and Shaun is handling it in a way that's ineffective, but his behavior is not the primary problem here.

Edited March 5, 2019 by possibilities

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Sunnybebe could you share your thoughts about Glassman? I am interested. I wonder why no one told Shaun about going to Human Resources or hiring an attorney. I don’t believe he was given any written warnings or even told what he did wrong.

I still feel that Shaun might feel less stressed and be able to control himself more in pathology but like all of us he has dreams and his talents are leading him to surgery. Shaun is a smart guy and by him not even asking about his legal rights they made him seem a bit childlike in his he scene in Han’s office.

I haven't followed this series as much as most of you, so, this may have been covered, but, my observation of Glassman is that his character is based on a person with many signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  I had always heard the term, but, never really looked into what it entails. until recently, when doing research for a real life situation. It takes an expert to diagnose, of course, but, for fun, it seems to me that the Glassman character has some serious issues. Let's see how his cancer experience truly changes him. 

I'm no expert, but, from my reading, with Narcissists, it's not just that a person is vain and full of themselves.  It's much more.  The person often has an abnormally high desire to control and manipulate people and will do about anything to have them conform to their wishes. Even if the person is unhappy about it. It's about what the controller wants. They tend to be very bright and have a number of people who know them, but, few true intimate relationships, because people who get close see the true, controller and manipulative person and get away.  They can do  generous and kind, acts but, are not generous or kind people. They feel that others should bend over backwards to accommodate them, just because they are so special.  They are so entitled to anything they say or want, regardless of how it impacts others. One of the biggest things is LACK of empathy.   They also think others are never appreciative enough of them and they often surround themselves with people they can look down on.  Those closest to them may be of lower education, lower socio-economic status, or emotionally needy. This is on purpose, so they can enforce their will on those people. They are angered by anyone who stands up to them and take it as a smack in the face if addressed directly and honestly about their bullying behavior.  Here's a link about it.

https://howcanweknowus.weebly.com/the-9-characteristics-of-npd.html

I know they had that emotional scene where Glassman was hallucinating, but, to me, that was more that he was upset that his daughter dare leave him, than about her true loss. JMO.  

Of course, people with the disorder are not usually 100% negative. They are on a scale. They may have some good traits, but, normally, their motivations come back to something in it for themselves.  Note, the treasured baseball was about how he felt, not about the doctor and how she might feel.  This actor is doing an incredible job, imo. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[Madding crowd]

That is an interesting theory-I can see some elements of that but Glassman also was the person who took care of and nurtured Shaun when he had no one else. Will have to think more on this-thanks for sharing.

[MVN-Hokies]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

The friend who criticized Dr. Lim probably gave her a lot to think about, but it's doubtful that she is going to be able to change much, if any.  Or at least that would likely be the case in real life, and especially for someone as busy with her career as Dr. Lim.

I thought the fact that she decided that they should tell Andrews was a sign that she took what her friend said to heart. I got the feeling that she was hesitant to make their relationship public because she wasn't confident in their relationship - and was being fearful that it wouldn't work out. When she decided to talk with Andrews, it showed me that she's ready to be serious about her relationship with Melendez and give it a full, honest chance at going somewhere. 

[tennisgurl]

Poor Shaun! I wanted him to stand up for himself, but this isnt how I wanted it to go at all! How many weeks must I scream "Get a lawyer Shaun!" at the screen before it actually happens! Shaun and his little scalpel, its just too heartbreaking. I was so happy when Claire arrived, it makes sense that it would be her. 

Han might think he is doing the right thing, but he is also a person who makes sketchy ethical calls, like with the board, and as much as he says otherwise, he clearly has a problem with Shaun having autism. I mean, how many doctors have we seen get pissed and yell at their superior or co-workers on this show? With the exception of Jerrod, who actually punched a guy, they're all still around. But Shaun gets mad, and he is seemingly kicked out? Its sad, because when there is something "different" about you, the rules become different. While other people can get away with making mistakes or getting upset, Shaun cant afford that with people like Han.

Loved Claire and Park getting drinks at a food truck and laughing about straws/complaining about work. That was a cute little scene, especially as we dont see them interact outside of work very much. And Claire got to figure some stuff out! Way to go Claire! 

Lea means well and is clearly trying to make Shaun feel better about his situation, but telling him to give up on something obviously unfair to him and being a bit "yeah yeah lets move on" about his move to pathology seems rather patronizing, and that she isnt taking his feelings very seriously. He was taken out of the department he loves because of discrimination, he has every right to still be upset! Yeah Shaun is good at pathology, and he isnt miserable there, but he is also an excellent surgeon and its what he wants, and has every right to do.

Lims friend can shove it. I get why she would be hurt and upset, but doctors are mandatory reporters, she could lose her license if she didnt got through the proper channels if she suspected abuse, not to mention its just the right thing to do. But acting like she cant love because she hasn't had a kid is just stupid and offensive. It seems like Lim is better off without her. 

Lim and Martinez sneaking around added some funny moments in between the serious stuff, especially them both trying to figure out how much Shaun knows, and trying to be all subtle. 

Freddie is just so good!

[possibilities]

If Shaun didn't see Lim and Melendez together, I thought he would become suspicious of them after the way they were grilling him. I guess he was preoccupied with his own problems so he didn't pursue it further, but in the past we've seen him start to put pieces together when there are breadcrumbs being dropped.

If he did seem them together, them drawing attention to it would only convince him that there was something notable about it.

I do like how the tendency to go for the obvious and not look for alternate explanations (with the infant case this week) was shown to be problematic. Everyone's behavior was understandable, but at the same time, lives can be ruined when doctors give up too fast. So it was great that both Shaun and Claire thought of things after others had given up. That's something you want when you have the possibility of any kind of non-routine medical situation. I have an uncommon illness and it's stunning how many doctors will shrug and give up after the first 1 or 2 things they think of don't pan out. I think part of what makes Shaun so threatening to an insecure ego-maniac with no people skills like Han, is that Shaun actually shows him up in front of the other staff as well as the patients, by coming up with ideas after Han declares it hopeless. It is way easier to tuck that person away in an office where he either won't know what's going on, or won't be able to say anything in front of anyone.

[Virtual]

23 hours ago, greekmom said:

I hope Dr. Dick is escorted out by security. He's not a real doctor. He's a class A manipulator

One thing is for sure, he knows NOTHING. Nothing at all on how to be a good leader. Never thought I would say this, but Andrews made a much better Head of Surgery (I criticized him for keeping the President position along with Head of Surgery, but it was better off that way now that we've seen how arrogant and assuming Dr. Han is).

And this is no Shaun bias from me; I just think it's incredibly unprofessional to yank someone from their position based on what hasn't happened yet when you just started being their boss. Furthermore, taking all of their good ideas and not letting them climb back up the ladder.

Remember how we had Jared sue the hospital last year to get his job back after he pushed the creepy Doctor, by following his sketchy lawyer's advice to play the fact that he was treated unfairly because of his race? Well, Shaun actually DOES have legs to stand on in the discrimination category, and I have to believe that Han's blackmailing earlier in the episode will come back to bite him as well. Not only that, but I can see everyone that Han has to work with speaking in support of Shaun, since they all already have, quite strongly (except for Reznick, but she's a side-switcher anyway who merely acts in which way benefits her for the day... apparently what happened with the violinist and her "lesson" on competing not being the most important thing hasn't sunk in yet).

With that said... Shaun did himself no favors with the meltdown in Han's office. That's why I say he does need therapy; he needs to learn how to deal with these things without freaking out.

Hopefully this won't be the last we see of Carly, the most interesting minor character of the show.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Virtual

[Fen Tiger]

Tough episode. 

Suspected abuse must be reported. The mother has to understand that, even if she doesn't like it. My sister was a PICU nurse and ended up changing specialities after she lost something like 5 patients in 2 weeks. What was interesting about the census on her ward was that about half the patients were NICU grads, about 10% had illnesses of some kind (cancers, etc.) and the rest were abuse victims at the hands of parents, step-parents, etc. Not sure if it is like that in most PICU wards, but damn. 

That is what irks me so much about juries and people that would defend Casey Anthony by saying stuff like "no mother would do that." Uh, happens every day of the week, read the news. Awful and unthinkable to most people, but all too common.

Love Daniel Dae Kim, but he is making it hard in this role.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Shaun! I wanted him to stand up for himself, but this isnt how I wanted it to go at all! How many weeks must I scream "Get a lawyer Shaun!" at the screen before it actually happens!

I definitely think he needs to get a lawyer, and will probably have to, unless the blackmailing Dr. Han does something to self destruct.  Besides, he's served his purpose, he got the quarantine doctors off, he may as well leave now.

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

If Shaun didn't see Lim and Melendez together, I thought he would become suspicious of them after the way they were grilling him. I guess he was preoccupied with his own problems so he didn't pursue it further, but in the past we've seen him start to put pieces together when there are breadcrumbs being dropped.

If he did see them, I just don't think he cares.  He's more interested in medical mysteries than social interactions.

2 hours ago, Virtual said:

One thing is for sure, he knows NOTHING. Nothing at all on how to be a good leader.

I'm not sure that's quite fair.  If you forget about his issue with Sean, I think he's been a pretty effective leader.  He's flawed, but it's not like he's completely ignorant or incompetent. 

[Sarahsmile416]

10 hours ago, greekmom said:

I personally think that Shaun's transfer to pathology was part of the deal that was cut in that room. 

I still think Dr. Dick is taking great pleasure in his treatment of Shaun and taking pleasure in being right that Shaun doesn't belong in surgery but in pathology.  The problem is that Shaun just saved 2 of Dr. Dick's patients.  

What would have happened if all those patients that Shaun treated over the last year were not treated by Shaun? They would be dead and their families would have lawsuits against the hospital for wrongful diagnosis. 

I agree - AND I think that’s part of why he is doubling down and acting like a dick.  He doesn’t like that 1) he is wrong about Shaun as we can see and 2) that Shaun (not intentionally) made him look bad by saving two of his patients.

I really don’t understand why anyone in the show hasn’t brought up the fact that he could sue.  

I too hated Lim’s friend and her bullshit “you don’t know love until you’re a parent” crap.  I’m a parent of two kids and that’s bullshit pure and simple.  By her fucked up philosophy - everyone who chooses not to have kids obviously does not know love.  Also, this whole “I’m not tired because I love her” bullshit made me want to slap her across the fucking face.  She is just as flawed as Lim by not admitting she might need help. 

[catrice2]

I've been bored this whole season...I find I don't care about Shaun, Glassman, Lea or the relationship between Lim and Melendez. I actually found myself thinking "where is Andrews?" during the episode.  Don't know what happened since last year. I hope they get new writers or something next year. 

[deirdra]

14 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Guess my whole department is out of a job if the surgeons/pathologists are doing their own MRI's!

Last week the surgeons were playing orderly/transporters, wheeling patients down the hall into the OR.  Between shooting in Canada and using few extras, this show must be filmed on the cheap, so they can spend a lot on the 3D special effects that I am already sick of.

Edited March 6, 2019 by deirdra

[Blue Plastic]

2 hours ago, Sarahsmile416 said:

I too hated Lim’s friend and her bullshit “you don’t know love until you’re a parent” crap.  I’m a parent of two kids and that’s bullshit pure and simple.  By her fucked up philosophy - everyone who chooses not to have kids obviously does not know love.  Also, this whole “I’m not tired because I love her” bullshit made me want to slap her across the fucking face.  She is just as flawed as Lim by not admitting she might need help. 

All of this.  The way she said she wasn't tired was not believable.  She seemed to be laboring under the delusion that loving her baby meant she could never get a little help.  That's just as delusional and unrealistic as she was accusing Lim of being.  I hated the way she pronounced that Lim couldn't love anyone and then turned her back.  As others have said, Lim would have to call CPS, no matter how much she believed in her friend.  Anyway, I assume that friendship is over!  It would be if I were Lim.

4 hours ago, Fen Tiger said:

Tough episode. 

Suspected abuse must be reported. The mother has to understand that, even if she doesn't like it. My sister was a PICU nurse and ended up changing specialities after she lost something like 5 patients in 2 weeks. What was interesting about the census on her ward was that about half the patients were NICU grads, about 10% had illnesses of some kind (cancers, etc.) and the rest were abuse victims at the hands of parents, step-parents, etc. Not sure if it is like that in most PICU wards, but damn. 

That is what irks me so much about juries and people that would defend Casey Anthony by saying stuff like "no mother would do that." Uh, happens every day of the week, read the news. Awful and unthinkable to most people, but all too common.

Yes.  A lot of people seem to think it's childless boogeymen who hurt children, but it's actually much more statistically likely for the perp to be a family member.  I guess I'm getting OT but this subject gets me fired up.

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I haven't followed this series as much as most of you, so, this may have been covered, but, my observation of Glassman is that his character is based on a person with many signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  I had always heard the term, but, never really looked into what it entails. until recently, when doing research for a real life situation. It takes an expert to diagnose, of course, but, for fun, it seems to me that the Glassman character has some serious issues. Let's see how his cancer experience truly changes him.

This is interesting.  I hadn't thought of Glassman actually having some kind of psychiatric or personality disorder.  He's definitely got issues!  I was glad the woman from the cafeteria bakery called him out last week because she was so right.  I get why he was so upset this week about his pending test results (I have been in those shoes) and why he didn't want the bakery woman to see him so ill, especially so early in their "relationship" when you're trying to make a good impression.  But it was bullshit for him to dump her so abruptly because of his embarrassment and then expect to just pick her up again months later.  I think he's just arrogant but I could be wrong.

I'd be interested to know how often or how likely it is for a resident to think of a treatment plan that the attendings hadn't already considered.  Or that may be experimental.

I don't know anything about what kind of legal claims Sean could make.  In "normal" jobs in the US, I believe an employer is required to make "reasonable accommodations" for an employee's documented disability, but they don't have to make "unreasonable" accommodations, I don't think.  But then there's also the student aspect of Sean's position, so I don't know how that might affect it.

IMO Sean should get therapy or some kind of remedial help dealing with patients.  It would be extremely upsetting to be told you might have a serious diagnosis and your doctor just says, "Your test results are very bad.  You're going to die!" and then just stand there staring at you.  I'm not sure Dr. Han is entirely in the wrong although he's not very nice to say the least.

[Virtual]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm not sure that's quite fair.  If you forget about his issue with Sean, I think he's been a pretty effective leader.  He's flawed, but it's not like he's completely ignorant or incompetent. 

He's definitely not incompetent, and maybe not 100% ignorant. He seems to be one of those people who automatically thinks he knows more than everyone because he was hired into a higher rank than them.

Since I didn't mention it yet, that last scene with Shaun at his locker was hard to watch. I did like that Claire was there to comfort him by sitting on the floor with him and making it known to him that she supported him.

I did mention before that Shaun has much, much more ground to stand on with being treated unfairly due to discrimination than Jared did. Nobody treated Jared unfairly due to a certain reason; he got what would have happened to anyone who assaulted a co-worker. But Jared was able to get his job back by playing the racism card, because of a past situation that involved someone of a different race. Shaun was flat-out yanked from his position because of his autism, and what Dr. Han thought he MIGHT mess up on in the future. Though it would have been better timing to build a case and sue before he had the meltdown, which will undoubtedly be used against him if he did decide to sue now.

Maybe Jared can let Shaun use his lawyer (lol). If memory serves, that lawyer helped CEO's get reinstated.

[catrice2]

I get that we have favorites and everyone wants a happy ending, but I think it is realistic that someone would question Shaun's abilities.  Bedside manner and patient connection is critical in patient care, and in real life Shaun's delivery in certain situations would be inappropriate.  The new doctor was also correct to point out that the way Shaun was acting in his office was only proving his point.  Disability aside, you cannot go screaming into your supervisor's office and breaking down. You can be passionate without losing control. It would be unrealistic for Shaun to go in the way he did and the supervisor to just say o.k.  I actually thought it was brilliant for them to assign him to pathology...he still has the opportunity to solve mysteries and save lives without possibly being too emotional while working on or with a patient. 

[theatremouse]

29 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Bedside manner and patient connection is critical in patient care

Not for surgeons. They're almost never held to a significantly higher standard of bedside manner than what Murphy regularly shows in 90% of his patient interactions on this show.

[doctor destiny]

Wow.  I was not expecting that.  They went all in.  A far cry from the first series where after some nice work Shaun was accepted in.  Highmore did a superb job playing a man in a no-win scenario.  Who couldn't feel for his portrayal of a man driven to the edge?  I'm not even sure I can watch that scene again.  It was so painful.  I liked that there wasn't the Hollywood "let's all band together behind Shaun".  That never happens in real life.  Same as when Lea called out Glassman on doing an Outbreak at the quarantine.  

I was pretty sure before that sending Shaun to Pathology was part of a play to get the medical board action behind them.  Now I'm certain.  Han is a player.  Due process is not this man's middle name.

[bros402]

20 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

Yes.  NED. Not "cured."  And yet again...doesn't this hospital employ any radiologists?  Or, you know, imaging technologists?

Guess my whole department is out of a job if the surgeons/pathologists are doing their own MRI's!

Maybe all of the radiologists and imagining techs are striking because the doctors do all of the scans 😛 and they have nothing to do

22 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

Seconding what bros402 said. Glassman wasn't just waiting for his food; he was waiting anxiously for test results. That kind of wait is pretty agonizing. From the point of "hmm... we think this might be cause for concern; we'd like to check it out," to getting biopsied, and then waiting for results, I had about 5 weeks of torturous worrying, and I didn't even end up having cancer (thank goodness). I can only imagine how stressful it would be for a person waiting to hear if their cancer was gone or not, after all that treatment and the hell that goes with it.

I haven't always loved Glassman's attitude of pushing people away, but I did love the bakery lady telling him the truth about his behavior. And when Richard Schiff cries, I cry. He really got to me, when he tried not to break down in front of his doctor, after he got his good news. 

Freddie was fantastic as well. I couldn't help but cry for him when he lost it in Han's office and again in the locker room, and when Claire sat next to him. Just gut-wrenching.

Yeah, I have cancer - no scans with mine (Yay, chronic leukemia!), but I always have some anxiety leading up to my monthly blood draw where we see where my counts are to see if if we need to get more frequent draws to see if I need to start chemo up again. 

Shaun losing it in Han's office is perfectly understandable. Shaun wanted something, he psyched himself up for it all day, read a bunch of stuff, approached Han about it, wanted to give his argument, and Han just flat out rejected him without even going "Okay, I will consider it." or "Okay, I hear what you said, but right now, I do not think you should be in my surgical department."

9 hours ago, Virtual said:

One thing is for sure, he knows NOTHING. Nothing at all on how to be a good leader. Never thought I would say this, but Andrews made a much better Head of Surgery (I criticized him for keeping the President position along with Head of Surgery, but it was better off that way now that we've seen how arrogant and assuming Dr. Han is).

And this is no Shaun bias from me; I just think it's incredibly unprofessional to yank someone from their position based on what hasn't happened yet when you just started being their boss. Furthermore, taking all of their good ideas and not letting them climb back up the ladder.

Remember how we had Jared sue the hospital last year to get his job back after he pushed the creepy Doctor, by following his sketchy lawyer's advice to play the fact that he was treated unfairly because of his race? Well, Shaun actually DOES have legs to stand on in the discrimination category, and I have to believe that Han's blackmailing earlier in the episode will come back to bite him as well. Not only that, but I can see everyone that Han has to work with speaking in support of Shaun, since they all already have, quite strongly (except for Reznick, but she's a side-switcher anyway who merely acts in which way benefits her for the day... apparently what happened with the violinist and her "lesson" on competing not being the most important thing hasn't sunk in yet).

With that said... Shaun did himself no favors with the meltdown in Han's office. That's why I say he does need therapy; he needs to learn how to deal with these things without freaking out.

Hopefully this won't be the last we see of Carly, the most interesting minor character of the show.

It's illegal for Han to yank Shaun from his position how he did. Han is opening the hospital up to so many lawsuits - lawyers should be stalking Shaun to get a minute of his time to sue the hospital on his behalf. His case is a slam dunk if there ever was one.

With outbursts like that, there isn't a way to make it go away completely, but therapy can help him better recognize when he is getting overstimulated in that fashion.

This better not be the last we see of Carly - Jasika Nicole is a great actress, I have missed her since Fringe ended.

[topanga]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:01 PM, greekmom said:

Laura was a mean bitch. Lim was just following protocol.

Thank you. The law states that a doctor has to report suspicions of child abuse. It’s not their job to investigate and only report when they’re sure. 

Dr Lim has nothing to feel guilty about. And her friend was really cruel to her. 

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

Shaun losing it in Han's office is perfectly understandable. Shaun wanted something, he psyched himself up for it all day, read a bunch of stuff, approached Han about it, wanted to give his argument, and Han just flat out rejected him without even going "Okay, I will consider it." or "Okay, I hear what you said, but right now, I do not think you should be in my surgical department."

That's a large part of what made his reaction so heartbreaking to me. The whole thing of him just sitting right down across from Han, hands folded-you know he had a whole vision in his head of how he expected this conversation to end, how he wanted it to end. He believed that if he were just assertive enough, the way his co-workers would be, it'd all work out. 

And yet it still wasn't enough. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Annber03

[vibeology]

8 hours ago, bros402 said:

Shaun losing it in Han's office is perfectly understandable. Shaun wanted something, he psyched himself up for it all day, read a bunch of stuff, approached Han about it, wanted to give his argument, and Han just flat out rejected him without even going "Okay, I will consider it." or "Okay, I hear what you said, but right now, I do not think you should be in my surgical department."

It's understandable in that we know Shaun so we get how he is but it's not okay and where I work could get someone fired. Yelling at a superior and refusing to leave an office after being asked are all huge problems and considering Shaun just managed to avoid being disciplined by the medical board for his reaction during the quarantine, he'd be on thinner ice than a different employee who did the same thing.  (I would also suggest after what Lim and Melendez did during the quarantine, if either of them had such an outburst and refused to leave someone's office they would probably get fired too.)

That being said, the situation itself is almost certainly illegal and if Shaun knew to bring in a lawyer he'd probably have gotten his job back weeks ago. And I'm going to put this more on Shaun more than Glassman, Lea or any of his coworkers. Shaun has shown that he doesn't want support for his autism. He's refused therapy, occupational therapy, doesn't interact with other people with autism except for when they are patients, doesn't want to build up a support group that could give him their own experiences. He has been through high school, college and med school. He doesn't know his legal rights? It would be nice if someone* else suggested getting a consult with a lawyer but ultimately Shaun has demonstrated over the past two seasons that he feels he needs to go it alone and prove himself capable. I think he's wrong; everyone needs help some of the time but I do think his own attitude is a part of the problem.

*Really it should be Glassman. He was the President of the Hospital. He certainly would have run into an employee somewhere in that big place who needed ADA accommodation of some sort. I get that his mind is elsewhere but seeing as his daughter's best friend was a hospital lawyer until last year (I'm guessing she's left?) you'd think at some point these past few weeks he'd pick up the phone and run the situation by her and go back to Shaun with her advice. Lea, Morgan and Claire are fairly young and never would have to deal with this and Park while older has probably never been in a supervisory position where he'd have any real experience with it either.

[Lotrfan 8]

This was a sad episode. While unwise, Shaun's reaction was understandable. Being bullied before myself, I remembered how hurt I felt when I was told repeatedly 'You are blaming everything else on your illnesses' or hearing that a minister at church told my mother that I just needed to beaten to act 'normal'(In the minister's opinion, not autistic)

Dr Jerk is the one who needs a wake call.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, vibeology said:

That being said, the situation itself is almost certainly illegal

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand:  What is illegal about it?  

Are you saying an employer can't legally transfer someone to a different department?  Because that seems unlikely.

Does it have something to do with being a resident (because I have no idea how that works)?

Or is just because he has autism and it's a discrimination issue?

[TurtlePower]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand:  What is illegal about it?  

Are you saying an employer can't legally transfer someone to a different department?  Because that seems unlikely.

Does it have something to do with being a resident (because I have no idea how that works)?

Or is just because he has autism and it's a discrimination issue?

First, Shaun does nothing wrong when he answers patients’ questions. He was simply honest with that mother a couple episodes ago. 

When someone has a disability, a reasonable accommodation must be found for that person before transferring them to another department. And, aside from the meltdown Shaun had, he’d done nothing “wrong” so, I don’t even see how Han has anything on Shaun in the first place. 

I have no idea what Han has against Shaun or why he did this to him, but it was very, very wrong. 

[vibeology]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand:  What is illegal about it?  

As mentioned, when someone has a disability they are entitled to reasonable accommodations and those must be provided before you can discipline or fire someone. A large hospital would have a hard time saying that most accommodations are unreasonable.

 In addition, Dr. Han has made numerous statements to other doctors that the reason he has moved Shaun to pathology is because of his autism which is discrimination. All Shaun has to do is show that he was subject to adverse employment action (being moved to a different department against his wishes) as a result of his disability (which he can easily do citing his own conversations with Dr. Han and the conversations Dr. Han has had with every other main character on this show) and he has a case of unlawful disability discrimination.

I am not a lawyer. I googled "California employment law disability" and confirmed the above and there is a chance there is nuance I'm not getting but it's certainly worth Shaun talking to an employment lawyer to explore his options and if this was real life, that's what everyone around him would be telling him to do.