S03.E10: Buying a Town (Part 2)

[jenrising]

5 hours ago, laurakaye said:

This is where I get confused...either the CO$ areas are private or they aren't.  Considering the Co$ owns most of the town, I don't understand how the non-brainwashed people that do live/visit/vacation there are supposed to be able to take a stroll anywhere without being accosted by the police.  And honestly, SP or no SP - how is the police force supposed to make that distinction, and even if they could, the term "suppressive person" is only unique to this crazy cult.  That's like a "religion" saying that if a person with green eyes walks past our buildings, they need to be escorted away because we don't believe in people with green eyes.  I am trying to figure out how this police department handles a myriad of daily crazy calls from scientologists complaining that someone they don't immediately know has the gall to walk down the street.  Maybe this was covered (I haven't seen all of Part 2 yet) but is the Clearwater Police being paid by scientology, and if so - how can that be?

I don't know the specifics about the park they were in but there is such a thing as a privately owned public space. Basically a developer and a city come to an agreement. But even beyond that, a lot of privately owned spaces are "open to the public." Like shopping malls. You can get kicked out just because the "owner" says so. Of course malls don't want to do that because they want you to stay and shop, but they could. 

In the park on the show there was a list of rules and note that it was owned by the "church." That's why when the police came they explained that they would make Leah and everyone leave if someone from $cientology asked them to - even if they weren't doing anything wrong, because if the owner tells you to go and you don't it's trespassing. No one did, so they weren't actually required to go. 

So if a random person decided to hang out there it would be fine. But if that happens to be a SP they just call the cops and kick them out - no reason necessary. 

[Lugal]

5 hours ago, Cobb Salad said:

I’m also wondering about the comments Mike made about becoming friends with the Mintons after all of what he did to them.  If I found myself in a position like the Mintons, once it was over and done with I’d want nothing to do with anyone who had anything to do with the pain inflicted on me.   People have their own definition of friendship and who they’d consider a friend I guess.

Some people are just fundamentally decent like that, genuinely able to get past things and forgive.  I can't say I'm one of them, but they are out there.  Bob Minton seemed like one of them which makes what they did to him that much worse.

4 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

When it comes to Mike (or anyone that grew up in the Cherch) I always try to remember that their emotional development is stunted - that is to say, their capacity and ability to deal with their emotions like "normal" people is nonexistent thanks to the mindfuck of Scientology. I hope that makes sense. So I try to see his reactions and comments, especially in regards to his past, with that in mind.

I have no doubt that Mike is still going through a lot of shit.  It was interesting in the episode with the roundtable where Leah's mother and sisters were there.  The difference in the reactions of the one sister who got out early (Nicole?) as opposed to Leah and her mother was interesting.  Nicole seemed like a normal person while Leah and her mother seemed somewhat uncomfortable with their emotions.

1 hour ago, Skycatcher said:

I find myself wondering what "fair game" tactics CO$ is using against Leah Remini and Mike Rinder these days.  After seeing the lengths they went to to "neutralize" Minton I would think they'd be trotting out the same tactics for the Aftermath cast and crew.

I have no doubt they are getting it, but while LRH's "policy" may have worked before, but times have changed and is completely unprepared for the Internet age.  Now anyone can pull out the cell phone and livestream the CO$ harassment.  Watching those videos from 2000 when the CO$ minions were out in force to swarm Bob Minton, I can't help but think that now they would have been doxxed within hours.

[TheGreenWave]

That is what is so frustrating @HighlandWarriorGrl, what can be done that has not already been done? Newspaper exposes, documentaries, books, this show...and still no change (well, nothing that I’m aware of). Co$ is a criminal enterprise IMO.

I know this is probably going to be wildly unpopular, but I feel like Kim Kardashian had the right idea going directly to Trump on her issue of bringing wrongful conviction to the forefront. Do you think that would actually do something here with CO$?? He seems to love a Cause Celeb. Probably far fetched and Leah would vomit in the same room as him...but I feel like something major would have to be done at this point to get the IRS to revoke their tax exempt status.

[kicotan]

I in NO WAY support the previous or current actions of the CO$.

That being said, as the 20 year old injunction they were able to obtain attests, they are using their federally approved religious status as well as their tax exempt status that goes along with it, to game the system as it is set up to their advantage.  They are taking advantage of every opportunity that the federal government bestows on a tax exempt “religious” entity, which, should be obvious to everyone that the system that supports it needs to change.  Either ALL religions get the perks or NONE do.  Picking and choosing which ones are worthy or not, in my opinion, is a fruitless endeavor.

ALL religions should be held accountable for their actions and shouldn’t be able to hide behind special government status.  NO religion should have a tax exempt status.  It allows them to be able to monopolize communities for their benefit and legally deny ordinary citizens rights.  The CO$ is not alone in this regard.

[ramble]

I don’t want to get political so I’ll just say the past couple of weeks a new law has made my heart heavy and listening to some Q&A today left me deeply depressed. I think that strongly influenced my reaction to this episode. I’m never surprised when this show makes me cry but while watching this I was full on sobbing. It’s all so heartbreaking.

The average CO$ member, I believe, truly buys into the saving the world, clearing the planet stuff. I also believe that most of them are hungry for something. Something to believe in, something to belong to, something to satisfy their soul. I get that. I’m a Christian so I understand the desire to connect. 

The thing I find bizarre is how people become convinced that helping the planet includes attacking people and trying to ruin their lives. There seems to be no peace, no grace, no mercy no joy, no love. It’s just so sad and wasteful. People who start out wanting to improve their life and who are willing to work exceedingly hard end up in a cold, joyless organization that only wants to use them and bleed them dry. 

The fact that people were willing to try and fight against the behemoth that is CO$ and their billions is admirable. Hearing how ultimately it was futile and broke a man’s spirit is disheartening. I can only imagine, now that he’s out from the control of CO$, Mike has times where he’s overcome with what he did. I know that long time scamtology members that break free have a hard time processing and expressing emotions. I bet the longer he’s out of the web the more he gains understanding of what he participated in. 

On an upbeat note I loved the people yelling support at Leah and wanting pictures. Suck on that Davey and your sad intimidation force. 

[HighlandWarriorGrl]

48 minutes ago, TheGreenWave said:

That is what is so frustrating @HighlandWarriorGrl, what can be done that has not already been done? Newspaper exposes, documentaries, books, this show...and still no change (well, nothing that I’m aware of). Co$ is a criminal enterprise IMO.

All true.  And of course, we as viewers have no idea what is going on behind the scenes to stop this reign of terror, and that’s the way it should be.  Here’s what I can’t stop thinking about; in a few weeks the season of this television show will end.  It will go on a break and we have no guarantee that it will be back.  Each week we are let in on gradually more and more disturbing information and many of us that are watching want to see it stop.  I want to see the people who are brain washed or stuck set free.  I keep thinking of that curly haired blonde girl (I don’t remember her name) that escaped in the trunk of a car.  That’s some pretty heavy shit!  You have to be desperate to do something like that.  What do those people do during the off season (or now for that matter) to get help?  Do we have to get the Underground Railroad started up again?  I never thought something like that would ever be needed again, but here we are.

[Skycatcher]

26 minutes ago, ramble said:

 

The thing I find bizarre is how people become convinced that helping the planet includes attacking people and trying to ruin their lives. 

 Unfortunately many religions have an us against them mentality.  The only way to God/enlightenment is our way.  Everyone else is wrong.  They're all heathens and we need to convert them or kill them all and let (OUR) God sort them out.  History is full of examples.  CO$,  because of their infinite resources is more extreme and of course now is more exposed than ever thanks to Leah and Mike.

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Skycatcher said:

 Unfortunately many religions have an us against them mentality.  The only way to God/enlightenment is our way.  Everyone else is wrong.  They're all heathens and we need to convert them or kill them all and let (OUR) God sort them out.  History is full of examples.  

To be fair, that's usually only an aspect of religious extremism.   The central tenets and philosophies of most organized religions don't promote that mentality, thankfully.  When certain factions within those religions take on that stance they veer straight into cult territory.

[Ananayel]

4 hours ago, HighlandWarriorGrl said:

Mike and Leah need to go that extra step and figure out a hotline or some kind of escape route for people wanting to get out.  How many do you think are trapped in there, or feel trapped and don’t know how to get out?  God, I can’t even imagine what that would be like.  To come out of this brain washing, realize what you are stuck in and not know how to get out or be in fear for your life.

They're on it.

It's fairly new, but word will eventually get all the way out where it needs to go.

[MisterBluxom]

On 2019-01-29 at 11:24 PM, DC Gal in VA said:

Question for those in the know about this organization: how exactly do they make money by buying 20 million dollar buildings? That's the part I just don't get. How can the tax write offs compensate for the expense of buying AND maintaining these expensive properties?

As for tonight's episode, Mike Rinder is to be especially commended for shining the light on his despicable behavior on behalf of The "Church" of Urinology. I admit to having been choked up by how emotional Mike and Leah, as well as the guests, were when relating all of the events surrounding the death of Lisa McPherson and the persecution of Minton (sorry, his first name escapes me at the moment). In particular, the look on Mike's face during that portion of the show was heartbreaking. I can see now why he works so hard to expose the scummy activities of Co$. I guess this is his penance for having enthusiastically taken part in destroying so many people's lives.

I'm no tax expert. But I believe it has to do with maintaining their absurd tax exempt status. If they didn't spend that money and they had millions in bank accounts, I have read they would lose their T.E. Status. That status is worth billions to them.

[MisterBluxom]

6 hours ago, HighlandWarriorGrl said:

Mike and Leah need to go that extra step and figure out a hotline or some kind of escape route for people wanting to get out.  How many do you think are trapped in there, or feel trapped and don’t know how to get out?  God, I can’t even imagine what that would be like.  To come out of this brain washing, realize what you are stuck in and not know how to get out or be in fear for your life.

 

Many of the former slaves who escaped have created a foundation called "The Aftermath Foundation". It's the single best idea I've yet seen for helping to dismantle this terrible curse and scam.

It exists to act as a kind of clearing house to connect people who have recently escaped The Scam and need help together with people who can help them.

As you may well know, many of the slaves who have lived their entire lives in TS ("The Scam") (TS is my favourite name for these cockroaches), have no real education except for Scamatology education. They have no money, no job, no job skills, no job experience, no place to live, etc., etc., etc.

They desperately need help like no one else needs help.

So good-hearted people who are willing to give them jobs or a place to live or training in job skills can volunteer by contacting this foundation.

http://theaftermathfoundation.org/

You can contribute money (always a good way to help) or any of the other things. You tell them the city in which you live and they connect you with people who need help in your city.

Contributing and volunteering to this foundation seems like the very best way to get involved in this struggle and help.

This might be the "extra step" to which your referred.

BTW, Mike Rinder is one of the Board members of this foundation and one of the founders.

[MisterBluxom]

10 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

When it comes to Mike (or anyone that grew up in the Cherch) I always try to remember that their emotional development is stunted - that is to say, their capacity and ability to deal with their emotions like "normal" people is nonexistent thanks to the mindfuck of Scientology. I hope that makes sense. So I try to see his reactions and comments, especially in regards to his past, with that in mind.

I'm not excusing or downplaying what he's done - I'm just saying that maybe even after all this time it's still difficult for him to process (let alone express) his emotions in regards to his past actions. As far as being friends with the Mintons, who knows, ultimately that's between them. There are probably few people in the world who would know the torment inflicted by Scientology better than Mike Rinder. I do seem to recall Mike saying when he finally blew, he called a man whom he'd been surveilling for help, and the man helped him.

And it's not my intent in any way to denigrate or argue the opinions of anyone else here on this forum. :) We all see things differently, which is what makes the discussions around here so interesting.

I don't disagree with much of what you have said.

I'd just like to add that Mike Rinder has to be an extremely courageous soul to stand up and speak out against this monstrous evil. He knows - better than most everyone - the consequences of speaking up against them. It takes courage beyond the definition of "courage" for him to do this. I think he is a great man.

I also think we all should speak up against them. The more people who do become their "Enemies" (at least in their eyes), the more resources they must expend to try and fight us. Ultimately, this is a fight they make more difficult for themselves every time they do one of these unspeakably evil things.

BTW, instead of "Enemy of Scamatology", I think he should be considered a "Friend to Humanity".

Edited January 31, 2019 by MisterBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

On 2019-01-29 at 11:25 PM, KLJ said:

Damn, google Bob Minton and the first several pages clearly are clearly created by Scientology.  Scary how much power this group has due to money.  And this poor guy isn't even alive anymore.

Poor Lisa McPherson and her family.  Just no words to what she went through.

I do wonder too, Lisa cannot have been the only person with psychiatric issues in all these years, so if signs similar to Lisa's are observed, do they let people go in order to avoid more attention?  Or instead of dumping them off at a hospital, now they dump them where someone won't ever find out?  Makes one wonder.

There are hundreds - if not thousands - of senior citizens who are members of their stupidly named "Sea Org". Most of these people were born into this thing and have no education, no money, no place to live, no jobs, no job skills, no training, no Medical Insurance, no Pension and on and on. As they age, they become a huge liability to Scamatology. What will TS (The Scam) do with them when they inevitably need medical intervention?

I envision a return of Nazi style Death Camps. You laugh? You think it's funny? Do you expect Scamatology to spend any of their precious billions caring for these people who have reached end of life? No way. In the eyes of The Scam, they are now liabilities and as such worthless. I'm guessing the opinion of The Scam is they should be just tossed onto some garbage heap because - after all - they will be reborn into new bodies and rejoin The Scam and so the faster they die, the better.

There is a monumental disaster looming as thousands of Seniors will die in the most miserable and lurid conditions ever seen on this planet. Just wait and see.

[green]

17 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Clearwater PD's Twitter Account is being blasted today.  It's @myclearwaterPD if anyone wants to comment.  Hell, their OLD tweets are getting pounced on.

Good.  The Clearwater PD are a bunch of wimps and wusses and they may as well dress up in make-believe sailor suits since they are now the mere non-officer "enlisted" personnel of the Sea Org.  Shame on them.

 

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'd love to hear from more people who live in and around Clearwater and what they make of the Co$. I bet the ratings for this show are really high in that area.

Speaking of which, has anyone watched the show that follows this one, The Many Sides of Jane? The promo spots strike me as horrifically exploitive and tacky. And that's the thing that bothers me most about Leah's show - the fact that it airs on a network that seems to have mostly low-brow types of shows.

Well last week as we all read the first Clearwater episode was mysteriously blocked from the main cable channel down there as A&E and A&E alone went "blank" between 9 and 10 pm that night returning immediately in time for the next show on the schedule.  The cable company claimed a cable upstate was cut which is as technically stupid as only a CO$ could possibly make-up for explaining away the payoff or whatever they did with the local cable company.  (BTW "The Many Sides of Jane" is fine and not some cheap exploitative stuff and real scientific explanations and facts are used and the main person Jane is the main narrator and is treated with total respect).

 

10 hours ago, DC Gal in VA said:

Yes, I've heard that they are not supposed to look at derogatory information on the internet but I have to believe that Miss Cabbage must have assigned a bunch of those true believers in SeaOrg to scour the internet for any criticism of their "religion" so he can strategize ways of neutralizing and/or destroying any and all critics

Bring it on, Miss Cabbage.  Hope you sent your brain-washed drones to this site so they can start learning the truth.  One of the best things that could happen from Leah's show is more CO$ slaves take to the internet and start getting de-programmed from all that crap they have been brainwashed with for years.

 

9 hours ago, kicotan said:

... Either ALL religions get the perks or NONE do.  Picking and choosing which ones are worthy or not, in my opinion, is a fruitless endeavor.

ALL religions should be held accountable for their actions and shouldn’t be able to hide behind special government status.  NO religion should have a tax exempt status.  It allows them to be able to monopolize communities for their benefit and legally deny ordinary citizens rights.  The CO$ is not alone in this regard.

Just NO.  99% of tax exempt organizations do good work and help people.  Cut off that status and more people go homeless, unfed, unclothed and unloved.  CO$ would win a major victory if their actions caused people of good will to get punished because of their bad actions.  Don't go and hand CO$ yet another victory.  Throw out the dirty water; not the baby.

Edited January 31, 2019 by green

[Skycatcher]

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

To be fair, that's usually only an aspect of religious extremism.   The central tenets and philosophies of most organized religions don't promote that mentality, thankfully. 

Absolutely true!  CO$ is an extreme example of "religion" run amock.  Another example would be mega-churches where slick uber-styled celebrity pastors urge little old ladies to send their social security money so said pastors can enjoy mansions and private jets and luxuries like that. They are nowhere near as heinous as what we're hearing about CO$ but still, reprehensible.

 I love my church and its expression of God's Love. Most true churches, temples, mosques and other places of worship are vital parts of their community and offer great comfort and support to their members.

[kicotan]

4 hours ago, green said:

99% of tax exempt organizations do good work and help people.

How did you come by this statistic with regards to churches?  I’m just curious because churches are not required to detail their financial information nor prove to anyone to what extent they engage in charitable work, if at all.

[suzeecat]

15 hours ago, DC Gal in VA said:

They also state that Co$ is the largest payer of property tax in downtown Clearwater paying $1 million dollars in property tax last year. As usual, money talks and bullshit walks.

But, I thought that as a tax-exempt organization, they don't pay property tax? 

[Rlb8031]

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

That said, I don't see how the Co$ can refute any of this story when it's a proven fact that Rinder was the architect of the situation and he's sitting right there admitting it. It's not as if he's just pretending he used to be a high ranking official within the organization, it's something well known and documented. 

They usually claim that staff took it upon themselves to do these things and that they were not ordered or directed to do so. Mike and others have been described as overzealous, rogue employees who were bad actors which is why they were thrown out of the religion.

[TexasGal]

I'm always struck when they show footage of Mike from before that he truly has crazy eyes.  It's hard to explain what I mean but when they cut from old footage to him sitting next to Leah his eyes look so different to me.  It's disturbing.  And, as you've all noted, kudos to him for facing up to what he's done in the past. 

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, suzeecat said:

But, I thought that as a tax-exempt organization, they don't pay property tax? 

If they own a building that is non-religious and generates revenue, then they pay property taxes on it.

According to a Fox News article from 2007:

“...Though many of its buildings are tax exempt, the church paid nearly $900,000 in taxes on its properties in the city last year...”. https://www.foxnews.com/story/florida-city-accepts-status-as-scientology-stronghold

ETA

According to a Hollywood Reporter article from 2011:

”...The Los Angeles County Assessor's Office provided THR with assessment information on the church's historic Hollywood properties. The church does not have exemptions on two of the seven: the KCET Studios (owing to its recent purchase by the church) and the Christie Hotel. But the remaining properties have exemptions of varying amounts, depending on a determination by the assessor's office of what percentage of each building is used for religious purposes and is therefore exempt.

According to data from the assessor's office, the church paid $43,359 in property taxes on the five buildings last year. Without the exemptions, it would have paid $265,650 -- good for an 84 percent reduction in property tax, or a savings of $222,291. The assessor's office did not supply THR with tax data on the church's 19 non-historic properties in Hollywood; these might also be entitled to property tax exemptions...” https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/scientologys-hollywood-real-estate-empire-213141

Edited January 31, 2019 by kicotan
More info

[Rlb8031]

10 hours ago, MisterBluxom said:

I'm no tax expert. But I believe it has to do with maintaining their absurd tax exempt status. If they didn't spend that money and they had millions in bank accounts, I have read they would lose their T.E. Status. That status is worth billions to them.

My very basic understanding is that as a not-for-profit one test is that you can't show undue enrichment. The organization gets favorable tax treatment because it is doing good work, so having significant resources at the end of each year, would imply that you aren't spending the money on what it is you are supposed to be doing. Therefore, for organizations that have tax exemption its important to have cash both coming in and going out. For an organization like Co$, if they were truly feeding the hungry, sending people to disaster areas with supplies and relief, running addiction programs, etc, there would be money going out as well. But since they pay staff little to nothing, and run no programming of any kind, they need to show money being spent on something. Purchasing property changes the dollars on their balance sheet from cash to assets. They then can show the operating and maintenance costs as annual expenses. The money has now been converted to a tangible asset which can be sold at some future time if necessary, can be leveraged to get additional cash through mortgages or loans, etc. all without the money actually leaving the Co$ coffers. Its about reducing cash on hand, without actually reducing the value of your overall assets. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Rlb8031
Because I'm not an accountant, I just play one on TV

[Stiggs]

8 hours ago, green said:

Good.  The Clearwater PD are a bunch of wimps and wusses and they may as well dress up in make-believe sailor suits since they are now the mere non-officer "enlisted" personnel of the Sea Org.  Shame on them.

I live in Pinellas County (not in Clearwater) and I was so NOT surprised to see multiple Clearwater cops responding to nothing for what seemed like a pretty long time, heh. 

When I moved here in 1999, one of the first people I talked to at my new job gave me 3 pieces of advice about living in the area: Do the stingray shuffle when you're in the water, steer clear of restaurants during Early Bird Special time, and stay the hell out of Clearwater because it's "nothing but a cult and Hulk Hogan's trashy family," lol. Clearwater is actually lovely and there are lots of non-cult-related things to do and see, but what the cult has done to downtown is really sad. I went to a concert in downtown Clearwater last year and was stopped at the light right smack in the middle of HQ, and I felt weirdly nervous. And it was the first time I had been near the Ft. Harrison and NOT seen young cult members out and about. It was like a ghost town - it all felt super creepy. 

ETA: I thought the show did a pretty good job explaining how the cult bought Clearwater. To me, it really pieced together a bunch of stories I knew and put them on a timeline that made more sense than what was jumbled in my head from reading various articles over the years in the St. Pete Times. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Stiggs

[jenrising]

2 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I'm always struck when they show footage of Mike from before that he truly has crazy eyes.  It's hard to explain what I mean but when they cut from old footage to him sitting next to Leah his eyes look so different to me.  It's disturbing.  And, as you've all noted, kudos to him for facing up to what he's done in the past. 

Yes. Tommy Davis had them too. Same as Cruise and Miscavige. It's zealotry, I guess. 

[DrSparkles]

2 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I'm always struck when they show footage of Mike from before that he truly has crazy eyes.  It's hard to explain what I mean but when they cut from old footage to him sitting next to Leah his eyes look so different to me.  It's disturbing.  And, as you've all noted, kudos to him for facing up to what he's done in the past. 

Yes! Not only that, but they look BROWN in the old footage!!!

[greekmom]

23 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

hey, if anyone is looking for something to do next Saturday . . . this flyer was at my hairdresser's salon. Being still relatively new to the area, I thought, oh hey, a block party -- this could be fun. Then I took a closer look . . . NOPE.

Note -- neither I nor my hair salon are in Clearwater -- we are about 10-15 minutes north. 

And I can neither confirm nor deny, but there is a strong possibility that someone leaving the salon may have taken the stack of flyers with them when they left and disposed of them in a trash can around the corner . . . 

 

Is someone in the salon or the owner part of the CO$?

 

I was curious to see who the current mayor of Clearwater is, and to my surprise a Greek man.  From all the articles I read he wants to open a dialogue with Miss Cabbage but has been denied.  In my opinion Mayor Cretekos has really buried his head in the sand, letting them do what they want as long as they don't bother him and his.  Another interesting fact that I found out about the mayor is that he is related to Maria Callas. 

I just wish they (the city of Clearwater and the police department) would outright refuse their requests.

(Did the CO$ get a hold of the aquarium? I missed that part in Part I)

[SailorGirl]

44 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Is someone in the salon or the owner part of the CO$?

Definitely not. Its a destination town and its also snowbird season, so groups put flyers in a lot of the local businesses -- "hey, do you mind if we leave a few flyers about [fill in the event]?" There was also a flyer for an upcoming artisan fair, some local music, and a few other things. Most businesses in destination towns  have free magazine stands and/or designated spots where visitors can grab information about local events, maps, etc. 

There is a local business that I recently found out is owned by a scientologist -- I am going to check it out and see if there's any materials in there -- and what they might be . . . :-D 

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by SailorGirl

[bluwater]

3 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I'm always struck when they show footage of Mike from before that he truly has crazy eyes.  It's hard to explain what I mean but when they cut from old footage to him sitting next to Leah his eyes look so different to me.  It's disturbing.  And, as you've all noted, kudos to him for facing up to what he's done in the past. 

I met Jason Dohring years ago and he had a very odd intensity about him. Didn't really have crazy eyes but he would give you insanely uncomfortable eye contact. Nice guy, very sweet, but....you could tell something was....different. I believe he was raised in CO$ too. 

 

I definitely noticed Mike's crazy eyes. Scary. 

[libgirl2]

On 1/30/2019 at 12:53 AM, geekgirl921 said:

There was a show on Investigation Discovery called Deadly Devotion. There was an episode about a mother who was a very serious scientologist. Her son was mentally ill. He had a psychotic episode in public so he was hospitalized and diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. This being scientology meant his mother had him released and took him to a quack scientology doctor who said it was some sort of intestinal problem and he should take vitamins or something. Anyway, the son ended up murdering his mother in a particularly gruesome way. The cops talked about how weird it was when the father and daughter came to talk to them and were mostly concerned that scientology would be blamed. 

I know the Elli Perkins case.  Just awful. This man was seriously mentally ill and Scientology only made it worse. 

[libgirl2]

19 hours ago, BabyVegas said:

In my opinion, he looked absolutely sick last night. I can't remember exactly what she said, but Leah made some joke and they cut to Mike and he looked like he wanted to hurl. I appreciate that Mike is facing his past head on. It would be easy for him to be behind the scenes or something similar, but numerous times throughout the series he has clearly been working to own up to what he did and take responsibility. I'd be willing to bet that if someone who he hurt in his role with Scientology wanted to yell at him about what he did, he would stand there and take it.

 

He gets this look of true remorse, guilt and even shame in his eyes. 

57 minutes ago, bluwater said:

 

I definitely noticed Mike's crazy eyes. Scary. 

So did I. Its like they were glazed over. 

[veronicamers]

1 hour ago, bluwater said:

I met Jason Dohring years ago and he had a very odd intensity about him. Didn't really have crazy eyes but he would give you insanely uncomfortable eye contact. Nice guy, very sweet, but....you could tell something was....different. I believe he was raised in CO$ too. 

 

I definitely noticed Mike's crazy eyes. Scary. 

Yep, Jason Dohring is a big time Scientologist. Loved him on Veronica Mars (obviously), but feel tainted now that I know his affiliation. Check this out:

[IntrovertRed]

Oh damn, I had no idea that Jason Dohring is a scientologist.  Crap.  Ignorance was definitely bliss.

Edited January 31, 2019 by KLJ

[Twopper]

5 hours ago, suzeecat said:

But, I thought that as a tax-exempt organization, they don't pay property tax? 

They don't, but despite being tight-fisted when it comes to paying its members, I think they would consider $1million to the town of Clearwater a cheap investment for keeping the police force in line.   Its a voluntary tax payment.   FWIW, the IRS will also take donations.     I am not sure what the actual tax value is on those properties if assessed correctly.   It would be hard to put a FMV on separate buildings downtown    I ask: how much would a willing buyer pay for one of these buildings to put in a restaurant or other shop in a downtown that is practically deserted of potential customers as Sea Orgs don't make enough to spend and the citizens avoid the area as much as possible?

[Twopper]

On 1/30/2019 at 12:52 PM, DC Gal in VA said:

Okay then iMonrey nice to know that it wasn't just me who felt really uncomfortable when Mike said the things I bolded above. Phrasing how he feels (or felt) in the past tense really rubbed me the wrong way too. If I was as tormented by someone as the Mintons were by Mike Rinder and Scamatology, as well as having to basically crawl on my hands and knees surrendering and begging for them to back off, the absolute last thing I would want was a friendship with that person. Then again, maybe she is just that forgiving, unlike me.

I cringed at that statement, too, because I had seen that post before I watched.  Then in a later part of the show it is clearer that he means it continues to haunt him.  I think it was just sloppy phrasing on his part.  

I can see that after Mike Rinder left the Co$ he could explain to them about the inner workings of the cult plus stories of how the members are treated, or rather, are mistreated.    After what they went through, I can also understand that they would be happy for Mike that he escaped.   I am not sure what religious beliefs, if any, he has now, but Mike reminds me of the story in the Bible about Zacchaeus who wants to make restitution to those he cheated. Luke 19:1-10     Obviously, it isn't an exact parallel because he isn't repaying specific people any money, but he is now fighting hard against Co$ and he admits his own participation in its evil practices and is horrified by it.

[libgirl2]

58 minutes ago, KLJ said:

Oh damn, I had no idea that Jason Dohring is a scientologist.  Crap.  Ignorance was definitely bliss.

Well at least there is someone else who's work I will not support. 

[MaryPatShelby]

21 hours ago, EVS said:

I just watched the episode. I had already read the comments here beforehand. This may be a small point, but what I heard him say was that his part in what happened to Bob Minton “has haunted me for a long time”.  I listened again to double check. It’s a small difference, but the meaning changes to me. Ymmv, of course. 

Everyone has their own opinions, and mine is that I'm surprised people are bagging on Mike for the turn of phrase he chose.  He did terrible things, they have haunted him, and he continues to make amends. Is he supposed to be "haunted" forever?  Hasn't anyone here done something terrible that they spent years regretting and being haunted by, and finally decided that in order to live a relatively happy life they need to let go?

[Lugal]

On 1/30/2019 at 7:32 AM, Pondlass1 said:

I dunno.  I think if I was of criminal intent I'd rob a bank in downtown Clearwater.  The streets are deserted and the police would have to check with the CO$ first to see if they'd be allowed to stop harassing people in the park to go chase bank robbers.   All those police officers standing about... what a joke.

If I was a banker, no way I would put a bank in downtown Clearwater.  There's no people around, and the only ones there are broke scientologists.  There was a bank in my town that closed a branch a few years back because they were trying to cut costs (and they tried to convince us that it's perfectly fine and easy to drive to the next town over to do our banking.  Most people closed their accounts)

But seriously, if there was ever a case for Eminent Domain, Clearwater would be it.  But that would probably mean open war with the CO$, but given how the people reacted to Leah being there (Running up to take selfies with her.  That one family didn't even have their faces blurred out) I don't think it's a war the CO$ would win.

22 hours ago, DC Gal in VA said:

Yes, I've heard that they are not supposed to look at derogatory information on the internet but I have to believe that Miss Cabbage must have assigned a bunch of those true believers in SeaOrg to scour the internet for any criticism of their "religion" so he can strategize ways of neutralizing and/or destroying any and all critics.

While I wouldn't put it past them, searching for "everybody who ever said a mean thing about the CO$ on the internet" would be way beyond their capacity, and probably would involve a lot of people waking up to the reality of it.

[MamaMax]

17 hours ago, MisterBluxom said:

There are hundreds - if not thousands - of senior citizens who are members of their stupidly named "Sea Org". Most of these people were born into this thing and have no education, no money, no place to live, no jobs, no job skills, no training, no Medical Insurance, no Pension and on and on. As they age, they become a huge liability to Scamatology. What will TS (The Scam) do with them when they inevitably need medical intervention?

I envision a return of Nazi style Death Camps. You laugh? You think it's funny? Do you expect Scamatology to spend any of their precious billions caring for these people who have reached end of life? No way. In the eyes of The Scam, they are now liabilities and as such worthless. I'm guessing the opinion of The Scam is they should be just tossed onto some garbage heap because - after all - they will be reborn into new bodies and rejoin The Scam and so the faster they die, the better.

There is a monumental disaster looming as thousands of Seniors will die in the most miserable and lurid conditions ever seen on this planet. Just wait and see.

Not really. If you have no conscience and your drones are totally brainwashed, you just ignore their health needs and let them die. 

[Twopper]

I talked with someone recently who grew up in the Tampa-Clearwater-St Pete area.  She left in the early 70's, but her parents remained in the area, and bought a condo in Clearwater before the Co$ moved in.   They eventually had neighbors that were Scientologists, but they had no problems with them.   She says whenever she visits Clearwater it is deserted in the area with all the Co$ buildings downtown.  No one seems to go there unless they have specific business downtown.  She was really impressed with what they did to the hotel, but she can't stay in it and doesn't want to take a tour of it  (I guess they give tours).   She was absolutely shocked when I told her Co$ came there pretending to be the United Churches of Florida or whatever name it was.  All she could say was "they are not anything Christian" and she was really annoyed that they use a cross on their building.  She also had no idea of the battles between Co$ and the city.   The only way she can tell a person is a Co$ is if they have on a uniform, but there aren't a lot of people to see downtown.  

[JenMcSnark]

9 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I'm always struck when they show footage of Mike from before that he truly has crazy eyes.  It's hard to explain what I mean but when they cut from old footage to him sitting next to Leah his eyes look so different to me.  It's disturbing.  And, as you've all noted, kudos to him for facing up to what he's done in the past. 

I comment on this to my daughter every time they show old footage of Mike.  He looks so crazy.  It's in his eyes and his demeanor.  

[Skycatcher]

Note:   I am NOT posting this as a political comment.  My thoughts are only for comparison.

I am watching Rachel Maddow,  who is doing a piece on the NRA. According to her the NRA seems to be crumbling, with financial troubles, an internal meltdown  and being caught in the Russia investigation.  I mention this ONLY because the NRA organization has always seemed well-financed, monolithic and very powerful.  If what Maddow says is true about the organization having serious problems, it gives me hope that an equally monolithic organization such as CO$ might be vulnerable as well.  "The times they are a-changin'," and through the works of Remini and Rinder and others,  CO$ may be ultimately be brought down by those changes.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Skycatcher

[redpencil]

Quote

They don't, but despite being tight-fisted when it comes to paying its members, I think they would consider $1million to the town of Clearwater a cheap investment for keeping the police force in line.   Its a voluntary tax payment.   FWIW, the IRS will also take donations.     I am not sure what the actual tax value is on those properties if assessed correctly.   It would be hard to put a FMV on separate buildings downtown    I ask: how much would a willing buyer pay for one of these buildings to put in a restaurant or other shop in a downtown that is practically deserted of potential customers as Sea Orgs don't make enough to spend and the citizens avoid the area as much as possible?

They could certainly pay voluntary taxes (I have no idea), but as someone else said above, if they have any buildings that are wholly or partially deemed a business rather than solely "religious," then they would have to pay taxes. Any church can own businesses, and they have to pay taxes just like any other business (payroll, property, whatever else), even if 100% owned by a church.

[Twopper]

40 minutes ago, redpencil said:

They could certainly pay voluntary taxes (I have no idea), but as someone else said above, if they have any buildings that are wholly or partially deemed a business rather than solely "religious," then they would have to pay taxes. Any church can own businesses, and they have to pay taxes just like any other business (payroll, property, whatever else), even if 100% owned by a church.

Thanks, I forgot .  They have the Hotel Ft Harrison that is a business.  It slipped my mind.   And there are several restaurants in or adjacent to it.

[sainte-chapelle]

21 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Everyone has their own opinions, and mine is that I'm surprised people are bagging on Mike for the turn of phrase he chose.  He did terrible things, they have haunted him, and he continues to make amends. Is he supposed to be "haunted" forever?  Hasn't anyone here done something terrible that they spent years regretting and being haunted by, and finally decided that in order to live a relatively happy life they need to let go?

I agree. Also he likely still needs support, as do many who leave. Focusing on his bad behaviour may discourage some Scientology followers who are secretly watching from leaving the church. They need to know that redemption and forgiveness is possible.

Edited February 1, 2019 by sainte-chapelle

[Yeah No]

On 1/31/2019 at 7:25 AM, Skycatcher said:

Absolutely true!  CO$ is an extreme example of "religion" run amock.  Another example would be mega-churches where slick uber-styled celebrity pastors urge little old ladies to send their social security money so said pastors can enjoy mansions and private jets and luxuries like that. They are nowhere near as heinous as what we're hearing about CO$ but still, reprehensible.

 I love my church and its expression of God's Love. Most true churches, temples, mosques and other places of worship are vital parts of their community and offer great comfort and support to their members.

Yes!  The thing with Scientology is that it didn't even start out as a religion but only adopted that designation for tax purposes, so I don't even consider it in the same category with other organized religions anyway.  It's really more of a cult masquerading as a religion.

[Whimsy]

22 hours ago, veronicamers said:

Yep, Jason Dohring is a big time Scientologist. Loved him on Veronica Mars (obviously), but feel tainted now that I know his affiliation. Check this out:

1. I was holding on to hope that JD was raised in it, but didn't really currently participate in it anymore, so I am saddened. 

2. It says it's a "free" seminar.  I seriously doubt that. 

[Lady Iris]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 10:25 AM, TexasGal said:

I'm always struck when they show footage of Mike from before that he truly has crazy eyes.  It's hard to explain what I mean but when they cut from old footage to him sitting next to Leah his eyes look so different to me.  It's disturbing.  And, as you've all noted, kudos to him for facing up to what he's done in the past. 

My word! I've noticed this before whenever they showed footage of him from back when. Very disturbing compared to the humanity on his face now.

Very sad to hear all those people in the discussion explain that they were interviewed by the FBI and nothing came of it. I would say, "Does somebody have to die for them to take note?" But that's already happened. What will it take to force the government to step in?

Bob Minton's story really was devastatingly sad. I can only applaud Mike Rinder his efforts and part in accepting responsibility. I'd be hard pressed to think of another public figure in recent history to own up and try to make things right after such deviousness.

[Twopper]

On 1/30/2019 at 5:40 PM, iMonrey said:

'm certain I had already heard about or seen the story about Lisa McPherson prior to this episode. Does anyone remember if it was covered in Going Clear?

I don't recall, but "Going Clear" is available on youtube.   Going Clear has a section on some poor girl that they were originally going to match up with Tom Cruise.  I need to watch it again.

[kicotan]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

It's really more of a cult masquerading as a religion.

Add to the mix that pesky constitutional thing about government not establishing religion nor preventing it’s citizens from freely participating in their religion of choice and the line between cult and religion becomes very thin.  However, not all cults or religions are granted the special designation Tax Exempt.  There are rules to that game.

I ran across an article that gives some good information as well as links to some of the court cases involved in the adjudication and enforcement of the IRS Tax Exempt Status Rules of The Game that entities such as CO$ enjoy.

From the article:

”...The most fundamental thing to understand is that no group and no church is “owed” a tax exemption. These exemptions on various taxes are in no way protected by the Constitution — they are created by the legislatures, regulated by the legislatures, and can be taken away by the legislatures. At the same time, tax exemptions — including those for religious groups — are not prohibited by the Constitution...

...The only restriction on how the legislatures act when it comes to creating and giving out tax exemptions is that they are not permitted to do so based upon preferences for content or based upon a group’s failure to take certain oaths. In other words, once tax exemptions are created at all, the process for allowing certain groups to take advantage of them is restricted by constitutional rights...

If a tax-exempt group — religious or secular — promotes ideas which contradict important public policies (like desegregation), then the group’s tax-exempt status may not be granted or extended. Tax exemptions are provided in exchange for groups’ providing services to the community; when the groups undermine important goals of the community, then the tax exemptions are no longer justified...”

https://www.thoughtco.com/religious-tax-exemptions-overview-249595

13 minutes ago, Twopper said:

I don't recall, but "Going Clear" is available on youtube.   Going Clear has a section on some poor girl that they were originally going to match up with Tom Cruise.  I need to watch it again.

HBO also has “Going Clear” in their lineup.  I watched it the other night.  The girl they matched him with is an actress currently on the Starz show “Counterpart” ~ Nazanin Boniadi.

Edited February 1, 2019 by kicotan
More info

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, Whimsy said:

1. I was holding on to hope that JD was raised in it, but didn't really currently participate in it anymore, so I am saddened. 

2. It says it's a "free" seminar.  I seriously doubt that. 

Maybe free initially but once they get you, it won't be free anymore. 

[HighlandWarriorGrl]

20 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

2. It says it's a "free" seminar.  I seriously doubt that. 

Being that this “seminar” is being held at the Celebrity Centre, I would say that there will be the expectation that money will change hands.  Either you will be treated to a brief infomercial on which Co$ courses will boost your ability to put Jason’s suggestions into practice with the most success, or you will be encouraged to buy “The Problems of Work” by LRH, or you will be offered coffee or sodas for the nominal fee of $25.