The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Bruinsfan]

22 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Hell, it ain't all that easy to find specifically Natasha atuff, either. Merchandising is beginning to wise up between the Natasha and Rey backlash.

I suspect merchandising is wising up because the competition had Wonder Woman swag flying off the shelves this year. Credit where credit is due, everything else Warner Bros. did with their comic book properties was a dumpster fire, but they did right by Diana and reaped the rewards (to the tune of $500 M-$1 Billion in merchandising sales by Bloomberg's estimate). Maybe it helps that she's a super-hero AND a princess?

[Dandesun]

54 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I suspect merchandising is wising up because the competition had Wonder Woman swag flying off the shelves this year. Credit where credit is due, everything else Warner Bros. did with their comic book properties was a dumpster fire, but they did right by Diana and reaped the rewards (to the tune of $500 M-$1 Billion in merchandising sales by Bloomberg's estimate). Maybe it helps that she's a super-hero AND a princess?

Natasha stuff was starting to become more available a couple of years ago. It's been an on-going battle because Disney was like 'we've already got girls buying our princess stuff... we need boys to buy our superhero stuff!' Seriously, that was the whole line of thinking behind the lack of merchandise for women regarding Marvel. Not even anything specifically Black Widow related, either... just flat out lacking in any Avengers merchandise meant for women. So I (and many others) would go to Redbubble or Her Universe or whatever to get what we wanted. I bought some Agent Carter shirts and wore them to Disneyland and had people (visitors and castmembers alike) asking me where I got it. With castmembers I would tell them WHY -- not that they needed the telling, they were more than aware of what visitors wanted. But that's always been the case.

When Rogue One came out there was a ton of Jyn Erso stuff... which was like FINALLY!! Because even with Force Awakens they dropped the ball completely when it came to Rey. I hope the success of Wonder Woman opened some eyes... not just her solo movie but the merchandise that goes with it. It's all well and good to have the princesses and the fairies and all that but not putting out superhero merch for women was just... losing money. Come on.

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Matt K said:

Like Morrigan, I'm super excited for original cut Star Wars (although I'm okay with the early 90's edition that cleaned up the visual fx).  Also really excited for a good Fantastic Four movie and Dr Doom being useable in the 

I was thinking about the Fantastic Four and if they can't make it a 60s period piece (with 60s ideas of what future tech might be, and Jon Hamm as Ben Grimm) then they should totally do a FF tv series, but make it a 30 Rock style show within a show where the Fantastic Four's adventures are the show people in the MCU watch, and the show we are watching is the behind the scenes family drama.

[Wynterwolf]

6 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I hope the success of Wonder Woman opened some eyes... not just her solo movie but the merchandise that goes with it.

Plus the fact that there are boys who are buying the Wonder Woman stuff as well... and they need to keep up with clothing styles for all the heroes that will flatter any body type.  They could do with non-gendering their entire clothing line.  

Edited December 14, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[starri]

A Fantastic Four movie HAS to be an early 60s period piece.  They've tried to update it twice, and the results were either ho-hum or a dumpster fire.  You do all the wonderful space-aged optimism for the first one, end with them deciding to take an adventure through time, and then have a post-credit scene of them popping onto the Baxter Building in present-day.  Then your second movie plays up the comedy and tragedy of their beliefs about what the 21st century would be and what it actually is.

I think the first bad guy should be the Super Skrull.  Save Doom as the big bad for the entire MCU's next chapter.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, starri said:

A Fantastic Four movie HAS to be an early 60s period piece.  They've tried to update it twice, and the results were either ho-hum or a dumpster fire.  You do all the wonderful space-aged optimism for the first one, end with them deciding to take an adventure through time, and then have a post-credit scene of them popping onto the Baxter Building in present-day.  Then your second movie plays up the comedy and tragedy of their beliefs about what the 21st century would be and what it actually is.

I think the first bad guy should be the Super Skrull.  Save Doom as the big bad for the entire MCU's next chapter.

Do you think that fish out of water/time travel story might be repetitive of Bucky and Steve?

[starri]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Do you think that fish out of water/time travel story might be repetitive of Bucky and Steve?

Not really, because the circumstances that they left were different.  Bucky and Steve came from wartime.  The Kennedy era was probably the apex for the United States confidence about the future.  To go from that to...this...is just so sad.

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, starri said:

A Fantastic Four movie HAS to be an early 60s period piece.  They've tried to update it twice, and the results were either ho-hum or a dumpster fire.  You do all the wonderful space-aged optimism for the first one, end with them deciding to take an adventure through time, and then have a post-credit scene of them popping onto the Baxter Building in present-day.  Then your second movie plays up the comedy and tragedy of their beliefs about what the 21st century would be and what it actually is.

I think the first bad guy should be the Super Skrull.  Save Doom as the big bad for the entire MCU's next chapter.

I disagree here. The FF can update as readily as any silver age hero. They've just made poor efforts at it. The FF is a book about family and the risks vs rewards of exploration and science, with a side of celebrity culture and being visibly 'other' and how that changes the way people treat you (Ben). Yes there's optimism, but it's also people with the specter of nuclear war hanging over them (which is frighteningly relevant these days).

Which isn't to say that a 60s adaptation couldn't work, but it isn't necessary IMO.

[JessePinkman]

8 hours ago, Matt K said:

Well the deal doesn't even go through until most likely December 2018 so the currently planned movies should still be a go.  Although the X-Men Dark Phoenix movie might not (or get a new director) due to the Bryan Singer allegations/being kicked off the Queen project.  

Dark Phoenix is already finished filming unfortunately and Singer wasn’t the director, I believe he only did a minimal amount of producing.

The only issue with a 60s set FF is Cap’s back story as mentioned and the upcoming Captain Marvel being set in the 90s (they’ll figure out some way to get Carol into the present), it’s going to the time travel/fish out of water well a little too much.

I can’t believe we’re going to have my favorite superheroes all under one umbrella. This is legit a fanboy wet dream.

Edited December 14, 2017 by JessePinkman

[Matt K]

25 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

Dark Phoenix is already finished filming unfortunately and Singer wasn’t the director, I believe he only did a minimal amount of producing.

The only issue with a 60s set FF is Cap’s back story as mentioned and the upcoming Captain Marvel being set in the 90s (they’ll figure out some way to get Carol into the present), it’s going to the time travel/fish out of water well a little too much.

I can’t believe we’re going to have my favorite superheroes all under one umbrella. This is legit a fanboy wet dream.

I had no idea X-Men was actually filming (or that Singer isn't directing, maybe I'll actually check it out then). 

 

I have no idea what they'll do with FF.  Setting it in the 60s doesn't work for a bunch of reasons but mostly because it means they can't really use FF staples like Silver Surfer or Dr Doom in the current MCU.  I'm not really sure how to do the FF properly in a modern setting especially with the MCU having space travel.  Maybe it'll be due to Galcticus coming or something but I'm not a writer.

[Fukui San]

I feel strongly that the way to do a FF movie is to skip the origin story and just have them be an established team of superhero celebrities from the get go. We don't need to see them go up in a rocket ship a third time. 

[JessePinkman]

32 minutes ago, Fukui San said:

I feel strongly that the way to do a FF movie is to skip the origin story and just have them be an established team of superhero celebrities from the get go. We don't need to see them go up in a rocket ship a third time. 

But how do you do that when we know Iron Man ushered in the modern age of superheroes in the MCU? The FF really lose a large part of what makes them them within this established universe. They’re no longer first and the earth already has celebrity superheroes. Their place in the MCU will have to be completely reimagined.

[HunterHunted]

9 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

But how do you do that when we know Iron Man ushered in the modern age of superheroes in the MCU? The FF really lose a large part of what makes them them within this established universe. They’re no longer first and the earth already has celebrity superheroes. Their place in the MCU will have to be completely reimagined.

I still think it's doable. Every phase has basically reset the baseline for what we thought we knew about the MCU. Tony was shocked to find out about aliens and the Chitauri in The Avengers. Presumably he seems to know very little about Hank Pym's work in Civil War. That's also their first we hear about Wakanda. Most of Carol's exploits will be secret. I can the Fantastic Four being famous yet still being a bit of a cipher if they slightly predate Tony. If you look at difference between the fame of a celebrity in the 80s and 90s and the fame of a celebrity now, it's night and day. Tony is a modern celebrity who overshares everything. The Fantastic Four can be older style celebrities doing more formal style press junkets. It's possible they aren't even on Tony's radar because Reed is still writing journal articles and doing more traditional press.

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, Fukui San said:

I feel strongly that the way to do a FF movie is to skip the origin story and just have them be an established team of superhero celebrities from the get go. We don't need to see them go up in a rocket ship a third time. 

 

The last reboot didn't have them go up in the space ship, it went with the Ultimate Fantastic Four origin where teenage Reed works as part of a government think tank at the Baxter Building and creates some sort of gateway to the negative zone and that's how they get their powers ... an hour into a 1.5 hour movie. I think they could get away with just hitting the high points of the origin in the first few minutes to remind people.

All this FF talks has me wondering if Chris Evans and Michael B. Jordan will come face to face at some point in the MCU.

[anyanka323]

On 12/10/2017 at 11:09 AM, JessePinkman said:

Out of 10 films, only 5 of the X-Men characters have been well cast if you ask me. Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, Hugh Jackman, James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender. Everyone else has been miscast or horribly written and so far removed from their comic book counterparts that it makes you wonder “What was the point?”.

I didn't think that Sophie Turner and Tye Sheridan were that bad in Apocalypse.  I thought Halle Berry, Anna Paquin, Ellen Page, and Famke Jansen did their best with what they got, especially in The Last Stand.  Kevin Bacon gave one of the better supervillian performances, better than most of the MCU and DCU villains. 

The miscastings that stand out are Olivia Munn and Jennifer Lawrence.  Oscar Isaac was completely wasted behind all that makeup. 

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

All this FF talks has me wondering if Chris Evans and Michael B. Jordan will come face to face at some point in the MCU.

Whatever they do with the Fantastic Four, I hope they don't use the current cast.  Because I hate the idea of the Fantastic Four being a bunch of young science prodigies (which is from the Ultimate line - I can't think of a single idea from the Ultimate Fantastic Four that is good).  The Fantastic Four needs to be a family, and to be of different ages - Reed the older father figure, his friend Ben, his wife Sue, and her younger brother Johnny.  The Reed character especially needs to have some maturity, IMO - he suffers from being a teenager.  They already have enough teenage heroes, especially if they bring in the X-Men.

[Perfect Xero]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Whatever they do with the Fantastic Four, I hope they don't use the current cast.  Because I hate the idea of the Fantastic Four being a bunch of young science prodigies (which is from the Ultimate line - I can't think of a single idea from the Ultimate Fantastic Four that is good).  The Fantastic Four needs to be a family, and to be of different ages - Reed the older father figure, his friend Ben, his wife Sue, and her younger brother Johnny.  The Reed character especially needs to have some maturity, IMO - he suffers from being a teenager.  They already have enough teenage heroes, especially if they bring in the X-Men.

I would agree on not using anything from F4 (it was not a good movie), I was referencing the two Johnny Storms already being cast in other roles in the MCU and both, apparently, kicking around Wakanda right now. Jordan, is playing Erik Killmonger in Black Panther.

And while I agree that the FF shouldn't be teens (other than Johnny, who should be about the same age as Peter), the only actual teen hero I can think of in the MCU right now is Spider-Man. Even if they do the X-Men they're likely to have the main team/focus characters be adults rather than teens.

[rmontro]

9 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

And while I agree that the FF shouldn't be teens (other than Johnny, who should be about the same age as Peter), the only actual teen hero I can think of in the MCU right now is Spider-Man. Even if they do the X-Men they're likely to have the main team/focus characters be adults rather than teens.

I was kind of thinking they would probably reboot the X-Men, and we might see the original lineup (Cyclops, Jean, Beast, Iceman, Angel) as teenagers.  That probably won't happen though (as cool as I think it would be), since that version of the team isn't as popular as the later, revamped version, and there would be some popular characters missing (mainly Wolverine).  But even if the main X-Men are adults, there's always been a presence of teenage mutants in Professor X's school, or wherever.

Agree that F4 was a horrible movie.  I hope the Fantastic Four is taken on directly by Marvel Studios, and not done by the Fox side of the business somehow.  Having the FF, Doom, Silver Surfer, Galactus, Super Skrull, and others in the MCU is a huge dream come true for me.  You can't really overstate the importance of the Fantastic Four in the history of Marvel Comics, especially in the vision that Stan Lee put together.  It is a very deep desire of mine to see a well done Fantastic Four movie that respects the history of the characters.

[AimingforYoko]

As far as Fantastic Four goes, I'm far more excited for Doom and Silver Surfer than the titular quartet. Sort of bummed it's too late to get Surfer involved in Infinity Wars.

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

As far as Fantastic Four goes, I'm far more excited for Doom and Silver Surfer than the titular quartet. Sort of bummed it's too late to get Surfer involved in Infinity Wars.

It would be great to see the Surfer and/or Galactus in a Guardians of the Galaxy movie.  And Galactus should not be a CLOUD!  (yeah, I know it can be argued Galactus was in the cloud - it was still lame).

I remember all the people on the internet arguing that no one would ever accept a giant robot looking Galactus with a funny hat and a purple suit in a movie.  Of course, since then we've seen the Celestials and the Watchers in Guardians, and we've seen Pacific Rim and the Transformers movies.  So all those people were flat out wrong.

[Dandesun]

The biggest problem with combining the X-Men with the MCU is the same problem as the comic books. The worlds are very very different... wherein you have the X-Men as universally hated 'freaks' that are persecuted in so many capacities and it's usually government mandated. Meanwhile, you've got the big name heroes of the Avengers with the likes of Steve Rogers who, based on everything we know of him, would be so wildly against anything of the sort directed at a whole people who were born 'different' and the Avengers have had mutants on the team throughout the years, Wanda, Pietro, Hank McCoy... Storm was an Avenger for a bit. So was Wolverine but, seriously, I don't know if there's a team Wolverine hasn't been on. The point is that the storylines that have driven the X-Men have been about persecution... Sentinels, Genosha, Operation: Zero Tolerance, the Phalanx... all of the miserable dystopian futures you can dream up and it just doesn't work to have Earth's Mightiest Heroes turn their back on fellow heroes, many of whom they've worked with and are friends with, and ignore what's happening.

During Civil War when Tony went to the X-Men to get them on the side of Superhero Registration? I mean... Mutant Registration is the genesis of any number of dystopian futures in X-Men canon. But, yeah, the X-Men would totally be down for Superhero Registration... oh, that's right, Emma told Tony to go shit in his hat because none of them had ever lifted a finger when Sentinels killed them. Hell, I believe the only reason the X-Men remained 'neutral' in that mess was because Tony was supposed to be in the right and no one at Marvel could figure out how to make the X-Men side with him because it wouldn't have made a lick of sense.

The FF is tricky to fit in because they are supposed to be big name heroes, the First Family of Marvel Superheroes, who operate in Manhattan and we've heard nothing from them. They aren't street level heroes. They're the ones who turned Galactus away when he came for a snack and got Namor to pull back the oceans when he decided he'd had enough of human back in the 60s. Those instances would have been on par with Chitauri raining from the sky so you either have to pare them down quite a bit or figure out how to make them important.

It's not easy to integrate all of those slices of the Marvel pie. I don't know that it's ever been done well. Well, there was that Acts of Vengeance crossover where Loki pulled together the main villains to work as a team... not realizing that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to put Red Skull on the same side as Magneto. Magneto kicked the shit out of Skull and dropped him into an underground vault and left him to die... which was great. Oh, and Namor told Loki to shove it because he wasn't a villain and HOW VERY DARE HE!! IMPERIOUS REX!!!

The point is, this is not going to be easy at all. Not a'tall.

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, Dandesun said:

The FF is tricky to fit in because they are supposed to be big name heroes, the First Family of Marvel Superheroes, who operate in Manhattan and we've heard nothing from them. They aren't street level heroes. They're the ones who turned Galactus away when he came for a snack and got Namor to pull back the oceans when he decided he'd had enough of human back in the 60s. Those instances would have been on par with Chitauri raining from the sky so you either have to pare them down quite a bit or figure out how to make them important.

The Fantastic Four is the foundation of the Marvel universe, in the comics anyway.  They were the catalyst for a lot of the stories.  Reed is by far the smartest guy in the world, and that needs to be shown.  So you're right, they either need to pare them down or figure out how to make them important.  Obviously as a big fan of the old Lee/Kirby comics, I would choose the latter.  That's the only thing I like about placing them in the 60s, because that allows them to have a history that predates the modern heroes.  But then they wouldn't be able to really take part and interact in the new movies, unless they make them like Hank Pym in Ant-Man - just shadows of their original selves.  Like you say, it's tricky.  I'm very curious to see how they handle it.

I think with the X-Men, they can keep the prejudice against mutants plot alongside heroes like Thor or Captain America being highly regarded.  It's not like prejudice is always logical.  Honestly, I am getting tired of seeing the same "evil human organizations imprisoning mutants" storyline being used so often on shows like Logan, Legion, and The Gifted.  It just gets tiresome after awhile.  The X-Men used to do heroic acts and fight evil a lot of the time too, they didn't just spend all their time being victims.

[Raja]

On 12/14/2017 at 3:31 PM, Matt K said:

I have no idea what they'll do with FF.  Setting it in the 60s doesn't work for a bunch of reasons but mostly because it means they can't really use FF staples like Silver Surfer or Dr Doom in the current MCU.  I'm not really sure how to do the FF properly in a modern setting especially with the MCU having space travel.  Maybe it'll be due to Galcticus coming or something but I'm not a writer.

I think everybody is proposing a third character after the two Captains to have their roots in the past and then time jump into the present state of the MCU. Even Agents of SHIELD has a time travel story this season. With spoiler/speculation alert, the heroes win in the next two Avengers movies another galactic big bad can emerge after the current threat is defeated or at least turned back temporarily.

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

The Fantastic Four is the foundation of the Marvel universe, in the comics anyway.  They were the catalyst for a lot of the stories.  Reed is by far the smartest guy in the world, and that needs to be shown.  So you're right, they either need to pare them down or figure out how to make them important.  Obviously as a big fan of the old Lee/Kirby comics, I would choose the latter.  That's the only thing I like about placing them in the 60s, because that allows them to have a history that predates the modern heroes.  But then they wouldn't be able to really take part and interact in the new movies, unless they make them like Hank Pym in Ant-Man - just shadows of their original selves.  Like you say, it's tricky.  I'm very curious to see how they handle it.

I think with the X-Men, they can keep the prejudice against mutants plot alongside heroes like Thor or Captain America being highly regarded.  It's not like prejudice is always logical.  Honestly, I am getting tired of seeing the same "evil human organizations imprisoning mutants" storyline being used so often on shows like Logan, Legion, and The Gifted.  It just gets tiresome after awhile.  The X-Men used to do heroic acts and fight evil a lot of the time too, they didn't just spend all their time being victims.

The Fantastic four and mutants face a similar story telling problem. The Avengers and aliens are publicly known in the story universe. If you are so secret that nobody knew that you existed then all the comics stories, from discrimination to being the first public hero family is wiped away and unusable without rebooting the franchise. The Fantastic Four becomes just another team, only in matching "suits" to use MCU terminology. And the mutants come public long after all the discrimination that Inhumans have faced just to say hey look at us too.

[rmontro]

I wonder how much Kevin Feige and the rest of Marvel are going to change their plans for Phase 4 or whatever it is, given the new availability of these characters.  Like maybe they'll consider Galactus as the end game big baddie?  There has to be some effect (I hope).

Now if they can just straighten out their distribution problems with Namor, I think they'll own all their own characters, yes?

[Lugal]

I think the Hulk is still tied up with Universal (which is why we aren't getting a solo Hulk movie anytime soon) and there's still something with Spiderman and Sony.

[rmontro]

8 hours ago, Lugal said:

I think the Hulk is still tied up with Universal (which is why we aren't getting a solo Hulk movie anytime soon) and there's still something with Spiderman and Sony.

Yes, that's what I've heard also.  I'm not sure how the Hulk differs from Namor's situation, but it's great that we get to see the Hulk as a guest star and in the Avengers.  I have no desire to see a Sub-Mariner solo movie, but he would make a great villain, for the FF especially.  It might also be nice to see an Invaders movie somewhere down the line.

Speaking of the FF, the Black Panther would make a great guest star in a Fantastic Four movie, since that character debuted in their comic.

And you're right, Sony owns the rights to Spider-Man, they're just letting Marvel use them.  Fortunately Sony and Marvel gets along amicably, unlike Marvel and Fox.

[Jazzy24]

10 hours ago, Lugal said:

I think the Hulk is still tied up with Universal (which is why we aren't getting a solo Hulk movie anytime soon) and there's still something with Spiderman and Sony.

I think by 2018 the distribution rights should revert back to Marvel cause they haven't made a Hulk movie in 10yrs. 

[starri]

The Hulk rights actually reverted to Marvel a long time ago, because Universal never made a sequel to the Ang Lee movie.  The Incredible Hulk was a Marvel Studios production, just distributed by Universal as Spider-Man: Homecoming was with Sony.  The only think Universal has is the right of first refusal on distribution.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, starri said:

The Hulk rights actually reverted to Marvel a long time ago, because Universal never made a sequel to the Ang Lee movie.  The Incredible Hulk was a Marvel Studios production, just distributed by Universal as Spider-Man: Homecoming was with Sony.  The only think Universal has is the right of first refusal on distribution.

The distribution rights are apparently enough to discourage Marvel from making a Hulk solo movie though.

Sony owns the rights to Spider-Man, they are just letting Marvel use him because it's in their best interest.  And Spider-Man is Marvel's most popular character, so he's a special case.

[Kel Varnsen]

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

The distribution rights are apparently enough to discourage Marvel from making a Hulk solo movie though.

I kind of get the discouragement, because in this situation Universal assumes almost none of the risk and still gets a share of the cash. 

[starri]

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

The distribution rights are apparently enough to discourage Marvel from making a Hulk solo movie though.

Honestly, the only reason I'd want a Hulk solo movie is the ability to get a She-Hulk movie following it.

[Fukui San]

39 minutes ago, starri said:

Honestly, the only reason I'd want a Hulk solo movie is the ability to get a She-Hulk movie following it.

Would you want a sincere superhero movie or the Dan Slott "superhero Ally McBeal" thing he did? I loved that treatment. The character has tended to be treated humorously in her solo titles. 

[starri]

1 minute ago, Fukui San said:

Would you want a sincere superhero movie or the Dan Slott "superhero Ally McBeal" thing he did? I loved that treatment. The character has tended to be treated humorously in her solo titles. 

Bit of both.  Honestly, the whole "Single Green Female" era was a great balance of Jennifer's penchant for being funny and her heart.

[JustaPerson]

I saw an interview with Mark Ruffalo where he said that one of the Marvel execs told him that Hulk's story arcs in the MCU films were pretty much the plot of a solo Hulk movie they wanted to do and that they had decided to just spread it out in other heros' and the Avengers films instead of making another Hulk film. 

Oh this interview:

Edited December 19, 2017 by JustaPerson

[benteen]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:09 PM, JessePinkman said:

Out of 10 films, only 5 of the X-Men characters have been well cast if you ask me. Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, Hugh Jackman, James McAvoy and Michael Fassbender. Everyone else has been miscast or horribly written and so far removed from their comic book counterparts that it makes you wonder “What was the point?”. 

If if they INSIST on bringing Jackman over then they need to recast everyone else.

I think the MCU trying to incorporate the FOX X-Men universe with timey wimey bullshit will be too much for the general audience to absorb honestly. My boss took us to see Justice League without having seen Thor Ragnarok and asked me if JL would spoil it for him. I’m sure he’s an outlier but at the same time these movies already meld together for a lot of people so why introduce even more confusion?

The sad thing is how much the X-Men movies have dropped the ball with their female characters.  The X-Men have some of the BEST female superheroes but Singer has done such a poor job with translating that over to the big screen.  It's inexcusable. 

[HunterHunted]

49 minutes ago, benteen said:

The sad thing is how much the X-Men movies have dropped the ball with their female characters.  The X-Men have some of the BEST female superheroes but Singer has done such a poor job with translating that over to the big screen.  It's inexcusable. 

It is. Mystique is completely mischaracterized and an unnecessary point in the triangle between Charles and Erik. Jean is stuck as mostly the love interest in the love triangle between Wolverine and Scott. Storm who? Rogue who? Kitty stuck in a weird love triangle with Bobby and Rogue. Emma Frost, the world's most powerful waitress--"Emma, this drink needs ice"--seriously?!?!

[Perfect Xero]

31 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

 Jean is stuck as mostly the love interest in the love triangle between Wolverine and Scott.

Not that Scott gets it any better. He's mostly just the jerk that the main character's dream girl is going to marry instead of him.

[benteen]

52 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

It is. Mystique is completely mischaracterized and an unnecessary point in the triangle between Charles and Erik. Jean is stuck as mostly the love interest in the love triangle between Wolverine and Scott. Storm who? Rogue who? Kitty stuck in a weird love triangle with Bobby and Rogue. Emma Frost, the world's most powerful waitress--"Emma, this drink needs ice"--seriously?!?!

Agreed on all accounts.  Mystique is an anti-hero at BEST.  She'll kill you without a second thought. 

[stealinghome]

Comics Mystique is also incredibly independent and strong-willed. She isn't a person who would ping-pong between Xavier and Magneto in a battle for her soul or wtfever.

[HunterHunted]

28 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Not that Scott gets it any better. He's mostly just the jerk that the main character's dream girl is going to marry instead of him.

Which is dumb because there is no universe where Wolverine and Jean are remotely compatible. Jean's father was a university professor. She had a pretty nice, sedate, suburban upbringing. The movies made that attraction mutual because Wolverine looked like Hugh Jackman, but Wolverine is over a hundred years old and a loner. He's half feral and will bang anything that moves. Furthermore, most of the women he has sex with are less like Jean than like her. So while some part of Wolverine wants Jean, most of the time his penis is quite happy without her.

[Dandesun]

I HATE the on-going Logan loves Jean... we guess she loves him too... MESS in the X-books. Claremont totally retconned that after they had Scott ditch Madelyne to go back to form X-Factor which, yeah, was a shit thing to do but that was what editorial decided and sometimes you just have to deal. Claremont deciding that Jean/Logan were THE COUPLE after that, his imagining that the dying universe centuries from now would be Old, Apparently Immortal Logan waiting for Jean as Phoenix to return, she does, they embrace and their eternal love reignites the universe... fuck my life just STOP. Logan's Jean fixation was always creepy as fuck and it was never reciprocated until Claremont started writing back up stories in X-Men Classic. And this isn't even from someone who thinks Jean and Scott need to be 2-gether 4-ever... I actually do like the pairing but I could get behind other ones.

Just not Jean and Logan. (I also have a hard time with Scott/Emma to be honest... it bugs me that Scott happily gets involved with the woman who was one of the ones directly responsible for Dark Phoenix in the first place. Or that she's supposed to be this great love to him. I don't buy it. Besides, I felt that when Emma became the Headmistress of Xavier's School at Scott's side it completely defanged her. I loved her best when she was co-heading the Massachusetts Academy with Sean Cassidy and thought the two of them should be boning constantly. They totally had a bodice ripper dynamic and I'm fairly certain that Emma would be ripping more bodices than Sean.)

Rogue as the flying brick is a dark storyline of redemption... she attacked someone (at Mystique's behest at that because Destiny had foreseen that Carol Danvers would be responsible for them losing Rogue for good... which was totally that Greek Oracle story trope of the self-fulfilling prophecy) and permanently absorbed their memories and powers which led to Rogue being fucked up and getting ZERO sympathy from the friends of the woman she attacked. The X-Men HATED her when she arrived... not JUST for what she had done to Carol but for being an all-around bad apple but Xavier took her in causing a near mutiny. It's interesting that Rogue was the first villain transformation that I remember. (Well, Banshee was a villain when he showed up in the Silver Age but it wasn't as big a deal. He was just doing some petty larceny if I recall.) And even when she was made part of the team she was not trusted... until she almost gave her life to save Mariko from Viper. That got Logan on her side and the others followed suit except that the Carol thing and the X-Men's resentment of it didn't go away FOR YEARS. I love Rogue the flying brick. She was fun as fuck.

And I just remain perplexed at how they've completely missed the mark on Storm every time. Every damn time.

Do better by your lady heroes, Marvel! You've got awesome ones!

[benteen]

59 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I HATE the on-going Logan loves Jean... we guess she loves him too... MESS in the X-books. Claremont totally retconned that after they had Scott ditch Madelyne to go back to form X-Factor which, yeah, was a shit thing to do but that was what editorial decided and sometimes you just have to deal. Claremont deciding that Jean/Logan were THE COUPLE after that, his imagining that the dying universe centuries from now would be Old, Apparently Immortal Logan waiting for Jean as Phoenix to return, she does, they embrace and their eternal love reignites the universe... fuck my life just STOP. Logan's Jean fixation was always creepy as fuck and it was never reciprocated until Claremont started writing back up stories in X-Men Classic. And this isn't even from someone who thinks Jean and Scott need to be 2-gether 4-ever... I actually do like the pairing but I could get behind other ones.

 

So much YES on this one and you describe the situation perfectly.   I have nothing to add because you cover all the bases.  Don't blame him for being upset over the writers having Scott ditch his wife but that doesn't excuse his Jean/Logan retcon, when Jean showed little interest in Logan (save for friendly concern) prior to her death in the Dark Phoenix Saga.  It was entirely one-sided.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Not that Scott gets it any better. He's mostly just the jerk that the main character's dream girl is going to marry instead of him.

And I hated that. As much as I fell for Jackman's Logan/Wolverine, Cyc/Scott was HORRIBLY miscast in the movie-verse. Cyc's my No. 2 after Logan. YEAH, LOGAN is my favorite X-Man. There. I SAID it. And I never read the comics--all my love for both comes from the '90s toon!

5 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Comics Mystique is also incredibly independent and strong-willed. She isn't a person who would ping-pong between Xavier and Magneto in a battle for her soul or wtfever.

Cartoon Mystique was also a badass, and she was Apocalypse's minion. Was that a deviation from comics? Like I stated above, I never read the comics. I do have the Dark Phoenix saga, but I don't think I've ever read it. Oh and very recently, before the movie came out, I got the graphic novel for Days of Future Past, which, whuuut?

3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I HATE the on-going Logan loves Jean... we guess she loves him too... MESS in the X-books. Claremont totally retconned that after they had Scott ditch Madelyne to go back to form X-Factor which, yeah, was a shit thing to do but that was what editorial decided and sometimes you just have to deal. Claremont deciding that Jean/Logan were THE COUPLE after that, his imagining that the dying universe centuries from now would be Old, Apparently Immortal Logan waiting for Jean as Phoenix to return, she does, they embrace and their eternal love reignites the universe... fuck my life just STOP. Logan's Jean fixation was always creepy as fuck and it was never reciprocated until Claremont started writing back up stories in X-Men Classic. And this isn't even from someone who thinks Jean and Scott need to be 2-gether 4-ever... I actually do like the pairing but I could get behind other ones.

Just not Jean and Logan. (I also have a hard time with Scott/Emma to be honest... it bugs me that Scott happily gets involved with the woman who was one of the ones directly responsible for Dark Phoenix in the first place. Or that she's supposed to be this great love to him. I don't buy it. Besides, I felt that when Emma became the Headmistress of Xavier's School at Scott's side it completely defanged her. I loved her best when she was co-heading the Massachusetts Academy with Sean Cassidy and thought the two of them should be boning constantly. They totally had a bodice ripper dynamic and I'm fairly certain that Emma would be ripping more bodices than Sean.)

Rogue as the flying brick is a dark storyline of redemption... she attacked someone (at Mystique's behest at that because Destiny had foreseen that Carol Danvers would be responsible for them losing Rogue for good... which was totally that Greek Oracle story trope of the self-fulfilling prophecy) and permanently absorbed their memories and powers which led to Rogue being fucked up and getting ZERO sympathy from the friends of the woman she attacked. The X-Men HATED her when she arrived... not JUST for what she had done to Carol but for being an all-around bad apple but Xavier took her in causing a near mutiny. It's interesting that Rogue was the first villain transformation that I remember. (Well, Banshee was a villain when he showed up in the Silver Age but it wasn't as big a deal. He was just doing some petty larceny if I recall.) And even when she was made part of the team she was not trusted... until she almost gave her life to save Mariko from Viper. That got Logan on her side and the others followed suit except that the Carol thing and the X-Men's resentment of it didn't go away FOR YEARS. I love Rogue the flying brick. She was fun as fuck.

And I just remain perplexed at how they've completely missed the mark on Storm every time. Every damn time.

Do better by your lady heroes, Marvel! You've got awesome ones!

TOTAL WORD regarding the bolded. You and I have had discussions about how I feel about Emma and Scott getting together. JUST FUCK THAT NOISE. And I'm one who did want Cyc and Jean to be together. Even if the '90s toon showed Jean attracted to Logan, it was ALWAYS SCOTT for her.

That's why, aside from whatever issues I have with X-Men: Evolution, I will forever LOVE that Logan is not a contemporary of Scott and Jean--they're teenagers to his adult, so I wouldn't have to deal with his "Jean! Jean!" Nonsense.

All that said, Hugh Jackman will FOREVER AND ALWAYS be Logan/Wolverine for me. And a big LALALALALALALAAAAA! I can't hear you! to those that say he can be replaced.

[Dandesun]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I hated that. As much as I fell for Jackman's Logan/Wolverine, Cyc/Scott was HORRIBLY miscast in the movie-verse. Cyc's my No. 2 after Logan. YEAH, LOGAN is my favorite X-Man. There. I SAID it. And I never read the comics--all my love for both comes from the '90s toon!

Cartoon Mystique was also a badass, and she was Apocalypse's minion. Was that a deviation from comics? Like I stated above, I never read the comics. I do have the Dark Phoenix saga, but I don't think I've ever read it. Oh and very recently, before the movie came out, I got the graphic novel for Days of Future Past, which, whuuut?

TOTAL WORD regarding the bolded. You and I have had discussions about how I feel about Emma and Scott getting together. JUST FUCK THAT NOISE. And I'm one who did want Cyc and Jean to be together. Even if the '90s toon showed Jean attracted to Logan, it was ALWAYS SCOTT for her.

That's why, aside from whatever issues I have with X-Men: Evolution, I will forever LOVE that Logan is not a contemporary of Scott and Jean--they're teenagers to his adult, so I wouldn't have to deal with his "Jean! Jean!" Nonsense.

All that said, Hugh Jackman will FOREVER AND ALWAYS be Logan/Wolverine for me. And a big LALALALALALALAAAAA! I can't hear you! to those that say he can be replaced.

Here's the thing about Cyclops in the first X-trilogy. I heart James Marsden. I think he's dreamy as fuck (and the bitch don't age, have you seen him lately? Still dreamy as fuck.) with a killer smile and I love him. What I thought was funny was that they cast tall hunky Hugh Jackman as Wolverine... who is generally a foot shorter in the comics, has copious back hair and always looks like he has better things to do than bathe so I'm certain he reeks... so that finally I could understand why Jean might be attracted to Hugh!Logan. But, ultimately, Jean chose Scott and I liked that because it really did come down to Jean making an informed choice. 'Yeah, Logan, you're really fucking hot and you're so into me that it's a gigantic ego stroke but when it comes down to it... Scott is my guy. I love him and I choose him. Until I succumb to a destructive personality and disintegrate everyone who means the most to me... not you, which should tell you something. Also, notice that I disintegrated your clothes... except for your pants so even my dark side didn't actually want to see your wang. Get the hint. Byeeee!'

And speaking of all that noise, something the MCU has proven they can do is write a good guy WELL. Steve is tremendous. He doesn't exist so that the troubled angsty guys can make fun of him to prove how troubled and angsty they are and how they don't have to follow rules you fucking boy scout! If the MCU handled Steve Rogers the way the X-Universe handled Scott Summers, well, Steve would have been the butt of jokes by Tony and Bucky as they flaunted their fancy facial hair and long beautiful locks because they're rebels god dammit!! You know, despite the fact that Steve and Scott would be unbeatable at pool... 'our specialty is spatial geometry. We bounce shields and concussive force beams off of other things but they'll never show us hanging out at pool halls because we're 'good guys' and that's only something rebellious bad boys with lots of man pain do.'

Now I want to write a fan fic where Scott and Jean go on a double date with Steve and Bucky. Scott and Steve hustle at the table, a barfight ensues that is won because Steve, Bucky, Scott and Jean are collective badasses and can fight for DAYS and then the money that Scott and Steve won at the table is given to the bartender to pay for damages and the leftovers given to charity. Maybe the animal shelter that Frank Castle started after he kept rescuing dogs from gangsters. He runs it with Hawkeye who also rescues dogs from gangsters. And they all live happily ever after, the end.

 

Also, Mystique was never Apocalypse's thrall but she did make her first appearance in Days of Future Past. As the bad guy.

And yes, X-Evolution was great. It made Logan and Storm contemporaries (they always had a better relationship anyway) and Scott and Jean were younger so the 'love triangle' never happened and it was all the better for it. It took awhile for Jean and Scott to get together and I liked that, too.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Dandesun

[HunterHunted]

It took me a while, but I warmed to Scott and Emma. I shouldn't be as into Scott and Emma as I am, but I think it's just that they got an opportunity to be a couple without insane forces trying to tear them apart. Scott and Jean were this epic union that the universe kept trying to tear apart. They were so important that forces throughout time kept trying to put them together or keep them from each other. They were the Luke and Laura of comics. Much like Luke and Laura, the ridiculous contrivances in their epic romance undermines their chemistry. I felt like Scott and Emma got a chance to just be two people who were into each other and wanted to fuck. Emma got a chance to be Emma. Scott got to be Scott. And together they got to be a couple where each part felt enough like their respective parts while still doing and building things together.

If this is something they are going to attempt to do in the MCU, they'll have to recast completely. I like James Marsden, but he was barely given any character direction as to who Scott is. January Jones can't act her way out of a wet sack. Her Emma doesn't work at all. Famke as Jean was apparently given directions to apologetically sigh "Scott", whisper-moan "Logan", and make goo-goo eyes at Jackman while alternating with constipation face. All of which is super offensive for a character introduced as Dr. Jean Grey. She's basically never shown to be competent in the movies and makes me wonder if her Ph.D. was in whatever the ridiculous bullshit areas Ph.Ds in romcoms often have degrees in.* And the new younger cast is mostly forgettable.

*Oh, you have 2 Ph.Ds in astronomy and astrophysics and other degrees in mathematics loveless "mousy" love interest played by Natalie Portman who has managed to get to the top of her field by 26. These aren't bullshit subjects, but the fact that a 26 year old is depicted as having multiple advanced degrees in these areas and managed to get to the top of her field is nonsense. There should be no way that Jane is leading any research with Darcy and Erik even if the funding is just money from her parents. Also Natalie Portman is gorgeous. Astrophysicists would create an annual calendar just so they could put her on every month for a decade. I say this as a person with multiple advanced degrees by 25. I was weirdo who attended universities nonstop from age 17. As a 26 year old with a bunch of degrees, I was at the entry level in my chosen field.  

[Wynterwolf]

7 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Now I want to write a fan fic where Scott and Jean go on a double date with Steve and Bucky. Scott and Steve hustle at the table, a barfight ensues that is won because Steve, Bucky, Scott and Jean are collective badasses and can fight for DAYS and then the money that Scott and Steve won at the table is given to the bartender to pay for damages and the leftovers given to charity. Maybe the animal shelter that Frank Castle started after he kept rescuing dogs from gangsters. He runs it with Hawkeye who also rescues dogs from gangsters. And they all live happily ever after, the end.

This needs to be added to the Hell's Kitchen Movie Club.  

[scarynikki12]

I never understood why movie Logan hated Scott even before he learned about the relationship with Jean.  Scott saved him and Rogue and brought them to safety yet Logan was all "how do you put up with that guy?" and "you're a dick".  The closest Scott came to being a dick was giving in to Logan's taunting and saying "stay away from my girl", which is way more insulting to Jean than Logan.  I get that a lot of Logan's animosity towards Scott does come from jealousy that he was Jean's love but it also felt like we were supposed to give Logan's insults some merit when they were baseless.  Maybe if Hugh hadn't landed the part it wouldn't have seemed this way.  I can only hope that future movies don't pair them and make it clear that Logan's infatuation is a character flaw.  If he still hates Scott, either give him an actual reason (that doesn't then make Scott unworthy of Jean) or make it clear that it's just jealousy based. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Which is dumb because there is no universe where Wolverine and Jean are remotely compatible. Jean's father was a university professor. She had a pretty nice, sedate, suburban upbringing. The movies made that attraction mutual because Wolverine looked like Hugh Jackman, but Wolverine is over a hundred years old and a loner. He's half feral and will bang anything that moves. Furthermore, most of the women he has sex with are less like Jean than like her. So while some part of Wolverine wants Jean, most of the time his penis is quite happy without her.

Buffy Summers called from 1997; she says "At least he's not a vampire." ;-)

[Dandesun]

34 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I never understood why movie Logan hated Scott even before he learned about the relationship with Jean.  Scott saved him and Rogue and brought them to safety yet Logan was all "how do you put up with that guy?" and "you're a dick".  The closest Scott came to being a dick was giving in to Logan's taunting and saying "stay away from my girl", which is way more insulting to Jean than Logan.  I get that a lot of Logan's animosity towards Scott does come from jealousy that he was Jean's love but it also felt like we were supposed to give Logan's insults some merit when they were baseless.  Maybe if Hugh hadn't landed the part it wouldn't have seemed this way.  I can only hope that future movies don't pair them and make it clear that Logan's infatuation is a character flaw.  If he still hates Scott, either give him an actual reason (that doesn't then make Scott unworthy of Jean) or make it clear that it's just jealousy based. 

And that's kind of where it was in the comics. Actually, the Giant Sized X-Men #1 where the new team comes in (Colossus, Banshee, Wolverine, Sunfire, Nightcrawler, Thunderbird and Storm) is the issue I like to call 'The One Where Everyone's An Asshole.' At the time, Wolverine was just a dick and he hated Scott immediately because Wolverine doesn't need anyone telling HIM what to do, boy! And also, your girlfriend is hot and maybe she'd like to have a REAL MAN. Seriously, though, there was a surplus of assholes there, they all just screamed at each other (or at least that's how it looked with the art) and you had Colossus all "Comrades! Let us not fight!" and Nightcrawler really trying to calm everyone down and Storm being all 'You all suck so hard I can barely stand being near you and no I'm not going to DATE any of you, what the hell?!' ::rains on them::

For the most part, Wolverine's issue with Scott came from nothing but being a LONER who CAN TAKE CARE OF HIMSELF and SNIKT! And then it got compounded by HOT RED-HEAD! She should be with ME! I mean, Wolverine being all man hurt about Jean becoming the Phoenix and 'I had plans for us, Jeannie!' Gross. She had plans, too, jerk... with her actual boyfriend who she actually loved. It wasn't until later when Wolverine developed a healthy respect for Scott and that was during Proteus but the genesis of Logan's issues with Scott were a combination of Loner Status and Jealousy which really doesn't cover him with glory.

Steve and Tony in the MCU are ones whose issues are personality based and they're earned. We see it through the course of their interaction. Yeah, Tony's flippant because of  Old Man Steve and his own Daddy issues and Steve doesn't have any patience for style over substance but they, too, earned a respect. They just rarely see eye to eye on things because of who they are as people. Tony's carrying around his Daddy issues, sure, but for the most part he's able to put it aside and work with Steve (until Civil War and all that) and Steve comes to respect what Tony brings to the table. It's never about petty jealousy (no matter how that first Civil War teaser trailer may have played up the Steve picking Bucky over Tony concept.) It's really about two clashing personalities and more how they work together than not.

The X-world loves it's dichotomies... Xavier/Magneto leading the charge on that one. But Logan and Scott always seem to play out more as 'We think Wolverine is cool and Cyclops really isn't' (especially in the cartoons) and just really petty bullshit in the comics where Scott was trying to get things done and Wolverine was too busy being a badass loner who doesn't need nothing or nobody and I totes want to fuck your hot girlfriend. Hell, the Ultimate Universe had Logan drop Scott into a pit so he could go back to the mansion and comfort fuck Jean while he pretended to be really upset about Scott 'dying.' And it's shit like that that made me like Logan with Mariko or Ororo or anyone other than Jean... because the crappy love triangle sucked and it never got better.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Dandesun

[anna0852]

Since the X-Men aren't officially part of the MCU yet, can their discussion please be taken to the relevant movie threads? I keep seeing new entries on here and thinking that it relates to our current Marvel Universe.