Endeavour - General Discussion

[ML89]

Question on Thursday's retirement going away - this has been bothering me, since it's a field I work in. Wouldn't he have an actual pension from the government as a British copper? I could guess that the money he lost to idiot brother (and that bothered me too as Thursday's a lot smarter than that) was his savings but anyone know about police retirement in Britain? 

As for the 'stache, it rather suits him.

Box is a lousy boss if he can't even set up someone to head off a couple of third rate robbers at the pass. 

How would you have not noticed the brakes going before you crash the car completely? I've had brakes fail, it's obvious. 

Morse's office was so Fox Mulder, I was expecting a slide projector and an I Want To Believe poster.

ETA: Thank you @tljgator for posting the Bright PSA. That's fantastic!

Edited June 30, 2019 by ML89

[Magnumfangirl]

On 6/27/2019 at 11:25 AM, Suzn said:

I love this show, but I don't know if I missed an episode or scene/scenes that explained what is Joan's problem.  I don't understand her hateful attitude toward her father or really anything that explains her general pissy attitude.  Can anyone explain?

The real reason is the writers couldn't get Joan and Morse together so they basically ruined Joan's character.  In seasons 1-4, I loved Joan.  She was funny, fashionable, flirty, and smart in a way that Morse isn't.  Their banter was the best thing about the show.  So, they had to destroy all that with this stupid falling out with Fred and turn her into a typical sixties era TV cliche.  Plus, I don't think they're doing a very good job of hiding Sara Vickers' pregnancy and that is distracting to me.  Two episodes in, and Joan is really annoying me.

Quote

The young girl was great in her role, but the scene where the young boy talks about Joan and Morse being is new parents felt ridiculous and forced.

Agree.  That bit was stupid.  Two kids being taken away from their parents would not say that even if their parents were immature weirdos.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Magnumfangirl

[WatchrTina]

Hmmmm.  I just watched the latest episode("Confection") and I have to say I'm feeling really frustrated with this season because I canNOT follow the plot.  That's true of every episode this season.  I haven't struggled this much in the past but this season everything just seem so disjointed.  I can never remember how anybody is connected to anyone else.

As for the two over-arching plot line -- the investigation of Fancy's death and the seduction of Thursday by the dirty cops (not to mention Thursday's wreck of a marriage) -- they just seem thrown in.

For the record, I assume Thursday is playing double-agent.  I refuse to accept that he's on the take, though I suppose it's possible.  Given that his marriage has been damaged by his having lost all that money he loaned his brother I suppose he could succumb to the temptation to get it back through graft.  But if that proves to be the case, I'm going to HATE that.  It would mean he's essentially been bought by the drug dealers who are putting out that killer heroin.  Ugh.

Also I scoffed so hard I nearly hurt myself at the notion that the candy factory would be essentially deserted while a cauldron full of hot chocolate was bubbling away.  If there is candy being heated, SOMEBODY is on duty to monitor that.

Edited July 2, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Pyralis]

It's made harder to follow by PBS cutting at least 15 min. from each episode.  Usually connecting  and character scenes.

[Pickles]

Can anyone tell me what Bright was saying about his wife's cancer and her doctor? 

[elle]

7 hours ago, ML89 said:

How would you have not noticed the brakes going before you crash the car completely? I've had brakes fail, it's obvious. 

I we wondering how the guy tracked the car to the party.  Did he drain the brake line there as indicated by the oil in the gravel that Morse noticed or did it drip there?

[Pyralis]

Short version - in the Bright-Mrs. Bright scene (the cut bits) she mentions that she saw Julian Fitzalan while she was in London.  The follow-on is him dialing the phone.  Then the scene with DeBryn where Bright asks about getting a second opinion and DeBryn suggesting Fitzalan "no better man in England" -  upon which you have Anton Lesser acting the hell out of how devastating this is- and saying that this is who his wife is seeing.  DeBryn offers that "he's not infallible" and asks about the diagnosis - which is terminal and rapid.  Bright asks what he should do now and then response is make the most of the time they have left.  It's two people playing it perfectly without the need for excessive dialogue.

and I won't even go into how they butchered the Morse-Strange scene when the latter comes looking for his about the latest heroin death.

[Pickles]

Thank you Pyralis!

[freddi]

Many thanks to anyone who finds the video of the ruined scenes!

The red letters spelled out "AGONY AUNT" -- the general name for the writers of advice to the lovelorn.

What a sad, sad episode -- Bright, Morse yet again finding the right girl who turns out to be so the wrong girl, and Thursday finding Win dancing away.  

Now I have to go find out why Rupert looked so familiar...

[magdalene]

While this show has never been what I would call "cheery" this season sure is a barrel of laughs all around. Between poor Bright and his dying wife and Thursday's marriage disaster and one depressing case showing the worst of humanity after another - can something go right for once?

I know enough about the old Morse show with him always picking the wrong women and being forever unlucky in the romance department that as soon as he started flirting with the vet's daughter he would come to regret going out with her.  And so he did.

I refuse to believe Thursday is on the take - he is playing along to get the bad apples.

[freddi]

Here is the letter Morse found on the bulletin board -- gosh, you don't have to be Morse to know who wrote that letter!  Everyone in the village would have known who wrote it!  

[Dessert]

Too bad Morse’s radar about women is so off. He was quite charming on his date with the vet’s daughter. Many women who were not suspects or victims would have fallen hard for him if he acted like that - probably even Joan.

This one was pushing all of his buttons. She seemed to be like his mother, a lovely divorced woman raising a young son by herself in a village. I think the boy reminded Morse of himself as a child, and he thought how different things might have been if his mother had remarried a nice, responsible, loving man. She also looked a little like Joan.

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, Pyralis said:

Anton Lesser acting the hell out of how devastating this is-

Gosh yes, his face doesn't even need lines.

Endeavor's acting face is also awesome.  His initial attraction to the single mother, his sympathy on the date, his melting heart during the good night scene.  All wasted on a murderer!  Darn it.

I've officially lost sympathy with  Win.  Depression was one thing, but now she's just out to endlessly  punish Fred.  I can understand how an otherwise smart man can be talked into something stupid by his older brother -- those relationship dynamics can go back to childhood and never fully leave us.  In any case, he expected to get it back and didn't deliberately do it to hurt Win.  Win is deliberately trying to hurt Fred with the mysterious nights out and dancing (their special thing!) with other men. I don't blame her for being furious when she first found out he's blown their life savings without even asking her, but it's past time to forgive him and get on with life.  Now I think he's truly gone over to the dark side and this season wont end well for him.  (I hope I'm wrong.)

[M. Darcy]

Heh, a Rhodes scholar named Clinton.

As soon as Morse goes on a date with a woman, you know she is the killer.  He never ever ever learned that lesson. 

Aw, poor Bright.   

[tootsie]

I admit I wandered aimlessly through the second episode. Way too many threads for my linear & non-mechanical brain (front half of 1 car attached to back half of another?? Did I hear that right?) At the end, whoever the hit & run driver was (kids' father?) & whoever hooked up with whom at the party just confused the heck out of me. But this episode actually made sense to me. I've learned it's the small, seemingly inconsequential scenes that really matter. Creswell Sr & Jr in their bright red coats trading horses at the hunt, for example, or Frazil telling Morse he ought to meet their advice columnist & him blowing the words off. Anyway, I think I followed it all. I literally held my breath when Box pushed the envelope of $$ across the table & so hoped Fred would hold out. Hate to think of his legacy being as a "bent copper." (would like to believe he's a mole but don't think he is.) Loved the scene with Bright & his wife (Would she say "I don't think I've been a good wife" because she has lung cancer? That doesn't ring true for me. Did part of that scene get cut?) Strange is really, really growing on me...much smarter than I ever gave him credit for, whether in Morse or early Endeavour. For me, his warning to Morse about not trusting those closest to him had the name Fred Thursday in it, though unspoken. All the mini-dramas playing out against the theme of "Happy Families" (the Creswells, the murderer's relationships & family, the murderous, unstable man at the start who believed the gossip & the card he received, Win & Fred, Bright & his wife, even Box's story about his father) was just great writing, imo. Sad to have only 4 episodes this season. Btw, I never knew Happy Families was a card game; Ann Cleeves' Vera Stanhope uses the phrase "playing happy families" often & now (finally) I get it.

[Desperado]

I did not pay as much attention as I should have. I echo everyone saying we knew the single mother was part of the murders when Morse asked her out, and she killed the brother in the factory, but the apparent suicide was a suicide? And who killed the father on the horse? 

And I agree with you @tootsie, I expected Bright’s wife to tell him she had had affairs or was leaving him for someone else, not that she had lung cancer. I didn’t even get her actually telling him. Is it another thing I missed? 

[tootsie]

5 minutes ago, Desperado said:

And who killed the father on the horse? 

Well, I could really have this wrong (which would be pretty standard for me with only one viewing of the episode,) but didn't the killer send a poison pen card to unstable, violent man (forgot name) saying that his wife was sleeping with a Creswell brother in the hopes that the guy would go over the edge & do her killing for her? (And then because Creswell Jr & Sr switched horses at the hunt, the wrong Creswell got killed.) That way, she'd have her female blackmailer gone and also the father of her son (who now was a threat to her) gone, too.  If that's wrong, I beg your pardon.

[sempervivum]

I must have drifted off at some point. I gather from the post above that the vet's daughter had been involved with the Creswell son, and her kid was actually illegitimate? Because I was puzzled as to why being abandoned by her husband (her official story) would be motivation for murder. Although, really, this village in 1968 isn't St. Mary Meade in 1938, and I guess I still don't understand what the big deal was.

The Win/Fred stuff doesn't ring true to me, either. Win is going to dance classes alone, but it looked like she was dancing sedately with some really old guy, not exactly a romantic threat to Fred. Also, what does she want- a divorce? Does she think she's going to be better off with even less money? Why doesn't she get a job to help Fred out?

I don't believe Fred is bent!

[2727]

Sorry to keep beating a dead Bellerophon, but if PBS needs to cut something, why not a few of the many scenes of the fox hunt: preparing to leave, drinking stirrup cups, staff lined up on the steps to see them off, gorging on food back at the manor. I'll admit it was a lovely shot of everyone riding off in the glowing light with all the doggies. Call the hounds!

It was very short, but I also could have done without seeing farmer Bell's wife fantasizing (or masturbating?) in bed.

It tugged at my heart when Thursday tried to offer comfort to Morse after they'd arrested the vet's daughter. Thursday not really knowing what to say and Morse as always not wanting to accept it. His stoic face: "Plenty of fish." When we know there aren't, for him.

Another poignant moment was Morse happily telling Strange that he wouldn't be working late because he'd found someone and it could be something. With Morse again being thoughtlessly cruel towards Strange when he knows Strange is alone.

I assumed the scene with Bright and his wife was post diagnosis, with him being solicitous about making her tea and all. Her saying she hadn't been a good enough wife I took to be the thoughts of a person with a terminal illness looking back over her life. Bright being so constrained by the social mores of the time and keeping a very stiff upper lip during his conversation with DeBryn.

Hey, every character on the show! It's okay to break down and cry sometimes!

Spoiler tags because I could swear this happened last season but maybe it's in the finale? Or maybe PBS cut it out.

Spoiler

Win does get a job doing office cleaning part time.

Edited July 1, 2019 by 2727

[graybrown bird]

Gosh if this is how Fred Thursday's story ends, I can see that being a big reason why Morse became so embittered.  More so even than his perennially unsuccessful love life.

[Suzn]

21 minutes ago, graybrown bird said:

Gosh if this is how Fred Thursday's story ends, I can see that being a big reason why Morse became so embittered.  More so even than his perennially unsuccessful love life.

I don't understand why Morse has such bad luck with women.  He's very appealing and doesn't seem more awkward with women than the average British man.  It looks like he just has a habit of picking the wrong women.

I feel very sorry for Thursday.  I understand Win being angry, disappointed, depressed even, but she has gone beyond that to just being a bitch.

[izabella]

16 minutes ago, Suzn said:

I don't understand why Morse has such bad luck with women.  He's very appealing and doesn't seem more awkward with women than the average British man.  It looks like he just has a habit of picking the wrong women.

If he's only picking suspects or people involved in his cases, that explains a lot.  Otherwise, what exactly does he do where he would meet women?  He's an opera lover...you'd think he'd go sometime and maybe be part of that community and meet people, at least the ones in the cheap seats.

[atlantaloves]

Morse did have the nice nurse who lived next door as a love interest there for a while, but he totally blew it. My Lord he actually went to bed with her and we saw him smiling like crazy in his ruffled sheets!

[2727]

Morse's interactions with women are always interesting.

He seemed very comfortable picking up Thursday's niece in the street and didn't hesitate to ask out the vet's daughter the second time they spoke. He met the French photographer through Joan and was neighbors with Monica. He knew Susan at Oxford.

I enjoyed watching his emotions with the prostitute suspect in Muse as she taunted him with her sexuality, and about his.

He tried to make a move on the opera singer/killer from season one but she rebuffed him. The mother of the missing girl in Arcadia threw herself at him but he wasn't having it.

Overall, I think the rector on Grantchester has had more sex than Morse!

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, it (poison pen) seemed done and done again, if not by Morse. They were all of off their game, given that she should have been suspected because of the horse gun that she had ample unquestioned access to -- the car, the keys, the gun -- rather unbelievable she did something that dumb having transformed into a "remorseless killing machine" seemingly over such petty slights.  For a single mother she had a cozy situation, home, job, well adjusted son.

I gagged a little bit as Morse heaped on the praise and she lapped it up ....and yet no suspicion of madness even as the body count rose.  (Thats usually a Midsomer Murder complaint as some milquetoast goes on a rampage without a hair out of place. )

I noticed last week that Box and Co. had stopped with the gratuitous insults... silly me, I thought Box might realize that they didn't have the investigatory skill set to keep their positions for long, but I suspect Thursday noticed and wondered.  Endeavor is in real danger if Box thinks he "owns" Thursday.  No, I don't believe he's gone over to the dark side. ... but I've been wrong before. 

[deirdra]

Whenever Morse asks out someone involved in a case, you know they are going to end up being the perp.

[freddi]

One thing that struck me as odd was that she was supposedly on the phone "gabbing" for two hours or so -- on a line that should be kept open for emergency vet calls.  Back when people had one phone line and no call waiting, they were much more aware of the need not to tie up the line.   

It seems like there are many more duo scenes with Morse and Frazil (Played by John Thaw's daughter, of course) -- it is a weird thing to see them talking, with her resemblance to the original Morse, almost a time-loop stretch of the fictional universe, where Morse gets to talk to the daughter he never had.  In earlier seasons, she seemed to have more of a cameo appearance, and was in more group scenes that in this season, where she shows up like an apparition to converse with Morse.  

[rhys]

12 hours ago, M. Darcy said:

Heh, a Rhodes scholar named Clinton.

Oh gosh, that have me pause for a moment, then a giggle after doing some quick math!

[Dessert]

1 hour ago, freddi said:

  It seems like there are many more duo scenes with Morse and Frazil (Played by John Thaw's daughter, of course) -- it is a weird thing to see them talking, with her resemblance to the original Morse, almost a time-loop stretch of the fictional universe, where Morse gets to talk to the daughter he never had.  In earlier seasons, she seemed to have more of a cameo appearance, and was in more group scenes that in this season, where she shows up like an apparition to converse with Morse.  

She’s always been depicted as having a special relationship with Morse and interacts with him one-on-one more often than in a group. In some episodes she has played a substantial role (Game and Harvest come to mind) - more so than in any I’ve seen this season. 

[elle]

12 hours ago, tootsie said:

Well, I could really have this wrong (which would be pretty standard for me with only one viewing of the episode,) but didn't the killer send a poison pen card to unstable, violent man (forgot name) saying that his wife was sleeping with a Creswell brother in the hopes that the guy would go over the edge & do her killing for her? (And then because Creswell Jr & Sr switched horses at the hunt, the wrong Creswell got killed.) That way, she'd have her female blackmailer gone and also the father of her son (who now was a threat to her) gone, too.  If that's wrong, I beg your pardon.

Did they show that letter implicating the son rather than the father?  I spent the entire episode thinking the affair was with the father, but it would make more sense that the horse switch was significant and the father was killed by mistake.  I wanted to know what caused the horse to come up lame for it to be so bad that the horse was put down.

20 hours ago, freddi said:

Here is the letter Morse found on the bulletin board -- gosh, you don't have to be Morse to know who wrote that letter!  Everyone in the village would have known who wrote it!  

Thank you for posting this image.  Wow, she might have just signed her name to that. Where did she think it would be printed that she wrote in for advice?  She could not figure out how to explain her situation by herself?  What is going to now happen to her son and father?  Will he have to give up his practice and move away? Will the boy 's uncle try to get custody?

[EyewatchTV211]

21 hours ago, freddi said:

Now I have to go find out why Rupert looked so familiar...

He looked familiar to me also, so I looked him up. He was the prince in those Netflix royal Christmas movies that were so popular. 

I could be wrong, but I think the elder Cresswell was the intended target to begin with. Bell's wife was accused of having an affair with him. I think we were to assume that Farmer Bell killed his wife and went after the elder Cresswell before then killing himself. Then, whats-his-name, who had helped with the poison pen letters by mailing them, committed suicide due to guilt. So the vet's daughter only directly killed one person, the older Cresswell brother. 

It's interesting that people find this season to be so dark. I guess the personal stuff with all of our main characters is very dark, moreso than in the past. But I think there's actually fewer direct murders (so far) than in previous seasons. More accidental deaths. A lot of the murders in the past seasons were super dark, or the stories behind them were super dark (like the storyline with the prostitute suspect that someone else referenced here). This show has never been rainbows and butterflies, though, lol. I still enjoy it as just a quality show. And I've always had some trouble following the storylines, especially if I don't pay 100% attention. It helps using closed captioning, though. I miss some things with the accents. 

[LennieBriscoe]

Winnie has HAD it,  the final straw! She had a tumultuous and worrisome life as a copper's wife, holding dearly onto a dream of a retirement of dinners and dancing. And then,  after Winnie's being Fred's PARTNER in his off-duty life, he throws her dream away on his Prodigal Brother. So she will catch her falling stars as she may. 

I think Thursday is on the take for real, no "double agent" here. Aside from being side-swiped in his career,  answering to lesser men, he believes that replacing the money he lent might be enough to mend his marriage  (the original "win-Win situation"!).

We have been prepared for this character change by the many times Thursday has humbled himself to "explain" Endeavour's behavior and words to Box, because Fred really  needs the job; i.e., the paycheck. He can't have Morse endanger its continuation.

And the final pub scene observed by Endeavour shows Thursday not just laughing,  but heartily so, with his new comrades. Had we viewers been prepared in previous episodes for the character Thursday to be that convincing as an actor,  a spy, a Serpico as it were?

I hope he comes to his senses, but for now I see Thursday as a man who sees his supervisor Box as the way to make it in their world. 

Add in the Murderous Mommy whom Endeavour took a shine to (and who resembled Joan in no small measure), and I found this episode to be quite dispiriting.

I am just as glad not to have "gotten" the manifold allusions to a British children's show.

Edited July 2, 2019 by LennieBriscoe

[OoogleEyes]

Ah, the old 'telephone off the hook' trick. Them were the days 

[OoogleEyes]

On 7/1/2019 at 11:17 AM, 2727 said:

Sorry to keep beating a dead Bellerophon,

Ha! You guys are the best 

[OoogleEyes]

I don't know,  but seriously, you guys are the best

#600 Pounders life forever!

[Shanna Marie]

On 7/2/2019 at 8:43 AM, LennieBriscoe said:

I think Thursday is on the take for real, no "double agent" here. Aside from being side-swiped in his career,  answering to lesser men, he believes that replacing the money he lent might be enough to mend his marriage  (the original "win-Win situation"!).

I've been rewatching the earlier seasons, and Thursday has never been entirely a straight arrow. He's always gone in for some of the shadier behavior, like beating information or confessions out of suspects or informants. Morse even walked away from him once when he was doing so, and Thursday has been suspended for it. Earlier this season, he confessed to planting evidence. It has all been generally aimed at making sure the bad guys get caught and go to jail, but if he's feeling disillusioned about where the rewards in his line of work tend to go, it's not a huge step for him to do something shady that's more self-serving.

[SusieQ]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I've been rewatching the earlier seasons, and Thursday has never been entirely a straight arrow. He's always gone in for some of the shadier behavior, like beating information or confessions out of suspects or informants. Morse even walked away from him once when he was doing so, and Thursday has been suspended for it. Earlier this season, he confessed to planting evidence. It has all been generally aimed at making sure the bad guys get caught and go to jail, but if he's feeling disillusioned about where the rewards in his line of work tend to go, it's not a huge step for him to do something shady that's more self-serving.

I don't think he planted the evidence, rather his partner at the time did. That's why he wanted to turn it in now. But Endeavour put it back in the church.

[12catcrazy]

Ok, so I was so confused by this episode.  I guess that only hearing/understanding half of what is being said doesn't help.  

So the premise was: Vet's daughter (beautiful woman by the way - not hard to see why our hero was smitten) had been unhappily married, had an affair with the MARRIED scion of the candy family which resulted in that adorable little boy.  Husband found out and dumped her, forcing her to move back to Peyton Place and in with Dad.   The vampy-looking blond knew who the baby daddy was and was spreading nasty gossip.   Also, married scion was threatening to get custody of the child (maybe wife couldn't have a baby?).  Vet's daughter sought revenge by sending poison pen letters to get everybody suspicious of everybody else, and then win/win,  gets Vampy Blond killed by husband, and the plan was that the same murderous husband would kill the Married Scion ?  Instead, due to horse switch, the candy family patriarch gets killed instead of the son?   And I had a problem telling the two sons apart.   I thought it was the younger, unmarried son who had to give up his horse, not the older guy.... 

And, I'm on Team Win.  I agree with the other person who said that Win had it up to HERE.  She played by the rules and basically got screwed in the end.  Is that going to be part of the theme here?   At this point I wouldn't blame her for leaving Thursday if another man came along that she would be happy with.   The fact that he gave that money to his brother without any kind of discussion with her sort of shows what her standing in the family was.  She was the wife but he made the money and it was ultimately his to decide what to do with - not hers.  And yet she now has to pay the price for that decision she had no part of.   I also think that Thursday has gone to the dark side, and isn't being a mole.   Amazing how things have changed with him from the last couple of seasons to this one.   And even IRL, people's lives can change on a dime.   We know that Morse and Strange make it to 25 years down the road - at this point, all bets are off in regards to Thursday.  

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, SusieQ said:

I don't think he planted the evidence, rather his partner at the time did. That's why he wanted to turn it in now. But Endeavour put it back in the church.

What Endeavor put back in the church was the real evidence that proved the guy really had been guilty--the evidence Thursday and his partner hadn't been able to find, even though they were sure the guy was guilty, and thus the planted fake evidence. But finding the real evidence was also proof that the previous evidence had been faked, which was why Morse hid it again. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of the case, but it would have possibly reflected badly on Thursday. Even if Thursday wasn't the one who faked the evidence, he went along with it, which still goes along with the idea that Thursday's always been willing to blur the lines a little. The difference is that he's been doing that to ensure that justice gets done, regardless of the details, while now he's benefiting personally.

[freddi]

I feel like the real plot this season has been solving the killing of George Fancy (if I got the name right) — and it’s only had a few lines of reference in each episode, so that’s a lot to load into the final episode, especially if it’s tied to current characters’ corruption (which might include Thursday?). But this could be a catalyst to propel us toward 1980s Morse.  

[SusieQ]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

What Endeavor put back in the church was the real evidence that proved the guy really had been guilty--the evidence Thursday and his partner hadn't been able to find, even though they were sure the guy was guilty, and thus the planted fake evidence. But finding the real evidence was also proof that the previous evidence had been faked, which was why Morse hid it again. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of the case, but it would have possibly reflected badly on Thursday. Even if Thursday wasn't the one who faked the evidence, he went along with it, which still goes along with the idea that Thursday's always been willing to blur the lines a little. The difference is that he's been doing that to ensure that justice gets done, regardless of the details, while now he's benefiting personally.

Sorry, didn't explain myself well. I knew it was the real hammer. My point is that Thursday didn't plant the fake one, his partner did. I'm not sure Fred had actual knowledge that his partner planted it. And now that he knew that his partner "cheated" with the evidence Thursday was willing to give himself up. He would have but Morse took matters into his own hands. To me, that made Thursday a stand up guy.

Now, what's happening with Box,Thursday, and the envelope of money, well I hope it's not what it looks like. I still have hope that Thursday does the right thing. It will break my heart if he turns out to be crooked.

[Dessert]

Unpopular opinion here: I’ve actually come to dislike Win. This is no reflection on the actress, who does an excellent job.

For me, it started with Joan leaving. I thought Win’s reaction was way over the top. Joan was a grown woman - not a teenager. I can understand Win being worried and depressed, but not to the degree that she was. She was not without recourse. She could have contacted Joan’s friends or brother to see if they knew anything. She could have gotten angry with Joan for scaring them. But she took it out on Morse for not finding Joan, when it wasn’t his responsibility or place, at all. She also took it out on Fred for not finding her, when he was just as worried, and then took it out on him again when he did.

The rules of the house were always that Fred would not discuss his work at home and Win was very much an enforcer of that dynamic. When he or Morse slipped and mentioned something from work, she came down on them. It sounds idealistic, but when you insist on not knowing anything about your husband’s work life - just wanting a home life without the dirty details of how it’s paid for - it’s not a big leap for him to leave you out of the loop on other things, as well.

Fred made a huge mistake in not consulting her about the loan to his brother. I can understand her being enraged and feeling betrayed, but I feel little sympathy for the petty meanness. She could leave. She could rage, fight, and insist on deciding on a plan of action that includes her. He knows what he did was horrible. There seems to be no way out for him. I suspect they’ll make up in the long run, but I would like to see her take a little responsibility for what has happened to her marriage and family. 

[Brattinella]

I've never liked Win.  She has taken this grudge to ridiculous lengths.

[OoogleEyes]

I feel sorry for actor playing Win. Same thing every episode 

[jrlr]

22 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I've been rewatching the earlier seasons, and Thursday has never been entirely a straight arrow. He's always gone in for some of the shadier behavior, like beating information or confessions out of suspects or informants. Morse even walked away from him once when he was doing so, and Thursday has been suspended for it. Earlier this season, he confessed to planting evidence. It has all been generally aimed at making sure the bad guys get caught and go to jail, but if he's feeling disillusioned about where the rewards in his line of work tend to go, it's not a huge step for him to do something shady that's more self-serving.

Good analysis and I suspect it's correct - although I hope we are both wrong!  I'd forgotten some of Thursday's less than above-board behavior, probably because he's always been portrayed as being old school in his methods (including smacking suspects around) especially  when there was more tolerance for any methods used to get to the bad guys.  But this payoff/bribe from a superior officer seems different, and he did seem awfully relaxed and jovial in the bar scene that Endeavour observed.

[WatchrTina]

On 7/1/2019 at 12:47 PM, Suzn said:

I don't understand why Morse has such bad luck with women.  He's very appealing

I'm enjoying a binge-watch of the prior seasons (starting with season 3 -- I can't find 1 and 2 online) and can I just say that I am crushing on Shaun Evans HARD.  (And yes I know Shaun Evans is an actor and Morse is the character he plays so quite possibly it's actually Morse I'm attracted to but, whatever.  It certainly adds a frisson of pleasure to my binge-watch.)

Previously in this discussion board I complained about the complexity of recent episodes and the season-long plot threads that are woven through the episodes.  It now appears that that has been a characteristic of the show all along and I had just forgotten.  I just finished season 4 in which scenes of a woman dealing out tarot cards appear at the start of each episode, but her identity and what it all means is not revealed until the last episode.  So this business of having an over-arching, season-long story arc IS normal.  I had just forgotten.

I have to say I am enjoying the re-watch.  I had completely forgotten about Morse having been falsely imprisoned and the later conspiracy to drive him out of Oxford even after he was cleared of the charges.  Season 4 ends with his overdue promotion coming through along with him (and Thursday) receiving a medal for special services to the Queen, which I presume is due to their having prevented the plot to sabotage the nuclear power station -- though that was all deliberately vague due to national security ("official secrets" and whatnot.)

I have to say, this is one show where you really do have to pay attention. (I really have to stop playing Candy Crush while watching.)  I'd like to think that's just a mark of thoughtful, complex mystery writing but, alas, I'm afraid these edits for the American version are also playing a role.  The upside is that since the plots ARE so complex you can do a re-watch (as I am doing) and genuinely not know "who done it."

Oh and I had forgotten ALL that about Joan running off and getting involved with a married man and Morse finding her but not telling Thursday and then Thursday finding her (after seeing her phone # at Morse's apt) and beating the crap out of her married lover and then the married lover beating Joan, who then turns up bruised and battered at Morse's place.  Morse gives her some money but later she turns up in hospital, pretending to be Morse's wife, having suffered a "miscarriage."  Wow.  I had forgotten ALL that.  What a ride!

Edited July 4, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Dessert]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

 Morse gives her some money but later she turns up in hospital, pretending to be Morse's wife, having suffered a "miscarriage”.

Glad you’re enjoying the rewatch! ...but Joan wasn’t pretending to be Morse’s wife. A neighbor of Joan’s had found his number and called him. The doctor was making assumptions.

[JudyObscure]

16 hours ago, Dessert said:

I can understand her being enraged and feeling betrayed, but I feel little sympathy for the petty meanness.

Yes it's the petty meanness  I can't stand.  I understand her being furious at first, but it's been months and  she's still giving him the freeze and purposely doing things  to hurt him.  As dumb and wrong as it was for him to risk their life savings, in his mind, she would never know about it or be hurt by it.  At some point Fred's actions have to come under the "for better or worse" part of her marriage vows.  Very few marriages end up as the couple pictured it when they were young.  Instead of that condo on Myrtle Beach, he has heart disease or she's taking care of her mother with dementia, or the grown daughter has moved back in with two preschoolers they have to watch during the day.  It's time for Win to suck it up and carry on.

[Possum]

On 7/2/2019 at 9:43 AM, LennieBriscoe said:

Winnie has HAD it,  the final straw! She had a tumultuous and worrisome life as a copper's wife, holding dearly onto a dream of a retirement of dinners and dancing. And then,  after Winnie's being Fred's PARTNER in his off-duty life, he throws her dream away on his Prodigal Brother. So she will catch her falling stars as she may. 

I think Thursday is on the take for real, no "double agent" here. Aside from being side-swiped in his career,  answering to lesser men, he believes that replacing the money he lent might be enough to mend his marriage  (the original "win-Win situation"!). . .

I agree with this.  I know many feel that Win should just suck it up and go on, but I understand why that may be so difficult for her.  It's like she is dealing with a death -- the death of the future she and Fred had planned together.  The fact that Fred gave away her future without even consulting her has to still rankle.  How many of us would like to be facing our senior years with no financial security because our spouse gave away all of our money without even asking us?  Fred sacrificed his wife for his reckless brother, a brother he should have known would disappoint him.  Fred has always been my favorite character, but it is very difficult to feel sorry for him now.

It pains me to say this, but I also think that Fred is reluctantly on the path to being a bent copper rather than being undercover.  With his marriage falling apart, he is more worried about trying to make that right than being an honest cop.  Taking the money is an act of desperation.  I also think that Morse will be the one to turn him back to the good side.  With Morse's encouragement, I believe that the envelope that Fred accepted will be used to prove that Box and company are bent.  Only Morse and Fred will know for certain that Fred was dancing with the devil.

Bright was superb in this episode.  You could see the hope drain from him as Max told him about the great specialist, the one who just happened to be the doctor who told Bright there was no hope for his wife.    I like that Bright only wanted Morse at the scene near the end of the show.  Thinking back to the first couple of years of the show when Bright seemed to dislike Morse so much, I never thought that he would eventually come to respect and appreciate him. 

Now I can't wait for Sunday to see how it all wraps up.

[WatchrTina]

On 7/4/2019 at 5:17 PM, Possum said:

The fact that Fred gave away her future without even consulting her has to still rankle.  How many of us would like to be facing our senior years with no financial security because our spouse gave away all of our money without even asking us?

I just re-watched the episode from last season where the brother asks for the money and Thursday tells him "I'll have to discuss it with Win."  So it's really interesting that, in the end, he decided to go ahead with the loan and clearly did NOT discuss it with Win. I guess he was just stalling for time to make his decision when said that to his brother.

On an unrelated topic . . . can we talk about the character names in this show?  Fancy, Bright, Strange -- are these the names of police officers or quarks?  And have you ever met anyone name Thursday?  (Okay there's Thursday Next, the female literary detective from the series of British fantasy novels by Jasper Fforde but that name is intended to be funny and fictional.)  And don't even get me started on the fact that the sole female cop is named Trewlove while the female reporter/editor is name Frazil.  How very Dickensian (and just a wee bit sexist.)

Edited July 7, 2019 by WatchrTina