S37.E10: Tribal Lines are Blurred

[amazingracefan]

4 hours ago, elizacat said:

Angelina quoted Friday night lights at tribal! Clear eyes full hearts! I just can't dislike her for that!

I don't know that reference but Mike mentioning the film 'Election' made me like him more, I saw it around 20 years ago.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, blackwing said:

I'm significantly over 30 and I've never heard that "calling a spade a spade" could be interpreted as a racial slur.  Is it a regional thing?  I'm in the Midwest and it never even remotely occurred to me that this phrase could be racist.

So it seems that Christian and Gabby are playing with the Goliaths because Gabby wanted to get rid of the Godfather.  I'm curious as to why the Goliaths plus Christian and Gabby didn't consider getting rid of Angelina.  Angelina so easily flipped to David and assumed she was with them until the end.  I'm not sure what to make of that... arrogance on her end that she just assumed they would take her, or masterful that she so easily slid in there and acted like she had always been with them.  She has demonstrated that she cannot be trusted.  It might be that everyone views her as a goat because nobody likes her, but I am pretty certain that in her own mind, she is playing the best game and is by far the most deserving of the win.  If you told her that she was a goat she would be shocked that anyone would even think that of her.

Plus, the whole "selfless sacrifice".  She gave up immunity because she thought she was safe since she jumped to the Davids.  If she had even remotely thought that the remaining Goliaths would target her then there's no way she would have done it.

The phrase "calling a spade a spade" has never been considered racist, but "spade" has sometimes been used as a racial slur against black people.  Kara said it referring to Carl, which is why some my interpret to be racist. But, I think that is nonsense.  The fact that she wasn't even thinking about using that phrase regarding a black person makes me think she is unaware that spade was ever used as a slur, or if she was, she wasn't thinking about Carl's skin color.   

[ProfCrash]

I didn't even hear the spade comment, it made no impact on me. There is a commonly used phrase that has already been discussed, "calling a spade a spade". There is nothing racist about that. I remember Omorossa on the first season of Apprentice calling someone out for being racist because they used the phrase "pot calling the kettle black." Yes, the term spade is racist when used in a various specific manner. There is also the digging tool that is called a spade and the suit of cards called a spade. So it is all in context.

[cleo]

Mike's comments- 'Carl and Davey will never mount an insurrection'

And last night in regards to Carl- 'there is something menacing about it'

Seemed sketchier to me than Kara's comment.

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, cleo said:

It bothers me that wishy washy Alison was fine voting with some davids when the target was again another david. Really dont like her play overall and I hope she doesn't get credit for doing something daring bc it wasn't.

I can't stand her.  I don't even mind Angelina anymore.  I barely remember why I didn't like her.  She annoyed me at one puzzle challenge early on and then was very villainous with Lyrsa's jacket.  Since then, she has not bothered me.  But Alison?  There's just something about her non-personality and non-playing and non-anything.  She says a lot of crap but says nothing at all.  She does whatever whenever however.  LOL.  Yeah, she gets on my nerves.

18 minutes ago, cleo said:

Mike's comments- 'Carl and Davey will never mount an insurrection'

And last night in regards to Carl- 'there is something menacing about it'

Seemed sketchier to me than Kara's comment.

I agree. People read very deeply into Carl, a lot of nefarious motivations that aren't there.  Carl just wants to drink beer and get to the end of the game.  He thought everyone would be on board with constantly voting out Goliaths except for one exception, Elizabeth, whom he didn't like.  Yeah it would have been nice if he got everyone's opinions on the vote but he didn't want to speak to Gabby because she loves Alison.  Whatever.  He's kind of clueless, but all of these cocky, horrible, asshole comments really rub me the wrong way.

I don't understand the scandal over alcohol, either.  I didn't think the alcohol stuff was embarrassing - I was way more embarrassed by the overeating and barfing everywhere, which production absolutely did NOT need to show us.  They're all legally allowed to drink alcohol. It's not like they were driving after.  If I would choose anything for them or myself on that stressful, crazy island, it would be alcohol and nachos.  For sure.

Now I'm feeling bad for Carl because I think Carl/Davie/Nick worked so hard to keep Christian in the game, and now that Christian has an idol, instead he stabs Carl in the back.  I get that Gabby is his biggest ally, blah blah, but I do and always liked Carl.  The Davids weren't all on the same page and I guess C/D/N never did any real work to figure that out.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[watch2much]

Like others have said, sitting here comfortably at home it seems incredible that the Davids would vote out Carl now.  Clearly the better move was to keep him around, especially if he's that annoying.  All the talk of the tribes meshing or whatever is over stated.  Now the Goliaths can consolidate and suck in someone like Gabby (who'll they convince is a mastermind and should vote with them) and they are back on top.  But, it's just indicative of the difference of being warm, rested, and well fed  and observing vs tired, hungry, and grungy and in the thick of it...maybe the thought of even a few more days of Carl was magnified as being intolerable.  Plus, paranoia is always around.  but clearly, they jumped too soon....all Christian did was convince a Goliath to vote out a David....doesn't seem like a smart move.

[SuburbanHangSuite]

45 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

But Alison?  There's just something about her non-personality and non-playing and non-anything.  She says a lot of crap but says nothing at all.  She does whatever whenever however.  LOL.  Yeah, she gets on my nerves.

Is there room for me on the Alison hate bench?  You hit the nail on the head---she is just "Non."   Even her whole big spiel last week--"I realized the best move is to stand perfectly still..."  Bish, bye.   

I think Carl was correct in his assessment that Gabby was becoming way too close to Alison---leaving her out of the "real" plan might've been hurtful to Gabby but it was smart.  That is, until Christian went all soft on us.  I'm still pulling for Christian, Nick and Davie but if Christian departs this game before the remaining Goliaths, I will have to laugh.  Smartest guy on the island undone by a neurotic crybaby.

Edited November 29, 2018 by SuburbanHangSuite
spelling is good

[Jextella]

On 11/28/2018 at 10:54 PM, breezy424 said:

Ok.  Christian saying to Jeff if he minded if he said something to him during that EC was everything.  Why?  Because it shut Jeff up. 

 

There is an interview of Christian in which he says telling stories during tribal was strategy.  It was his way of stopping Jeff from asking him pointed questions....I assume to minimize risk of saying something too revealing or damaging to his game.   So smart.

On 11/29/2018 at 5:24 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

The Hammock of Death claimed yet another victim.  When I saw Carl lying in it with Davie, totally confident that he was in total control, I knew he was doomed.

 

Hysterical.  The Hammock of Death.

On 11/29/2018 at 5:56 AM, JudyObscure said:

Nick is slowly becoming my favorite.  I loved his quiet little prayer of thanks for the beautiful day.

 

Nick IS my favorite.  I haven't seen this week's episode but look forward to doing so if for no other reason than to see this.  Thank you for sharing.  

22 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

I don't know that reference but Mike mentioning the film 'Election' made me like him more, I saw it around 20 years ago.

Angelina is a lot like Tracey Flick, isn't she?!  (really GREAT little movie and still relatable today if anyone is interested).

21 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I agree. People read very deeply into Carl, a lot of nefarious motivations that aren't there.  Carl just wants to drink beer and get to the end of the game.  He thought everyone would be on board with constantly voting out Goliaths except for one exception, Elizabeth, whom he didn't like.  Yeah it would have been nice if he got everyone's opinions on the vote but he didn't want to speak to Gabby because she loves Alison.  Whatever.  He's kind of clueless, but all of these cocky, horrible, asshole comments really rub me the wrong way.

I don't understand the scandal over alcohol, either.  I didn't think the alcohol stuff was embarrassing - I was way more embarrassed by the overeating and barfing everywhere, which production absolutely did NOT need to show us.  They're all legally allowed to drink alcohol. It's not like they were driving after.  If I would choose anything for them or myself on that stressful, crazy island, it would be alcohol and nachos.  For sure.

Now I'm feeling bad for Carl because I think Carl/Davie/Nick worked so hard to keep Christian in the game, and now that Christian has an idol, instead he stabs Carl in the back.  I get that Gabby is his biggest ally, blah blah, but I do and always liked Carl.  The Davids weren't all on the same page and I guess C/D/N never did any real work to figure that out.

 

1

I agree with every point made here - especially about Carl.  He's far too emotional and bossy for his own good, and he does have an intense demeanor which can be intimidating if not a bit scary when he's in hyperdrive. But, he's just playing the game in the best way he knows how.

I find Gabby's constant crying and need for validation equally offputting - just on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

-------------

Not having seen the episode yet, just based on the posts here, it seems there was no need for a "bing" when Carl said it and no need for Gabby and Alison to say it again.  Carl said it out of relief and enthusiasm for having beat enormous odds to get renewed life in the game. It was still gloating which is never pretty.  Gabby and Alison brought themselves down to a tit-for-tat childish, school-yard level.  The latter crime is slightly more egregious than the former, IMO.  

Gabby doesn't have a shot in hell of winning this thing, and she sealed the deal with that vote. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Jextella

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 minutes ago, SuburbanHangSuite said:

Is there room for me on the Alison hate bench?  You hit the nail on the head---she is just "Non."   Even her whole big spiel last week--"I realized the best move is to stand perfectly still..."  Bish, bye.   

Hahhahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

6 minutes ago, Jextella said:

Gabby doesn't have a shot in hell of winning this thing, and she sealed the deal with that vote. 

Is that you, Spencer?  (Joking!!!!)

[Jextella]

17 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Hahhahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Is that you, Spencer?  (Joking!!!!)

The Spencer reference went over my head but I'm ok with that.   Spencer is one of my all-time favorite players of the game.  This season hasn't played out all the way yet, but if Nick continues to deliver what we've seen so far, Nick and Spencer would be my top two favorite players - ever.

[Bryce Lynch]

12 minutes ago, Jextella said:

There is an interview of Christian in which he says telling stories during tribal was pure strategy.  It was his way of stopping Jeff from asking him pointed questions....I assume to minimize risk of saying something too revealing or damaging to his game.   So smart.

Hysterical.  The Hammock of Death.

Nick IS my favorite.  I haven't seen this week's episode but look forward to doing so if for no other reason than to see this.  Thank you for sharing.  

Angelina is a lot like Tracey Flick, isn't she?!  (really GREAT little movie and still relatable today if anyone is interested).

I agree with every point made here - especially about Carl.  He's far too emotional and bossy for his own good, and he does have an intense demeanor which can be intimidating if not a bit scary when he's in hyperdrive. But, he's just playing the game in the best way he knows how.

I find Gabby's constant crying and need for validation equally offputting - just on the opposite end of the spectrum. 

-------------

Not having seen the episode yet, just based on the posts here, it seems there was no need for a "bing" when Carl said it and no need for Gabby and Alison to say it again.  Carl said it out of relief and enthusiasm for having beat enormous odds to get renewed life in the game. It was still gloating which is never pretty.  Gabby and Alison brought themselves down to a tit-for-tat childish, school-yard level.  The latter crime is slightly more egregious than the former, IMO.  

Gabby doesn't have a shot in hell of winning this thing, and she sealed the deal with that vote. 

I'm not sure how much of a shot Gabby ever had.  But, I think Christian going along with her really hurt his chances.  He pissed off 4 people (3 still in the game) to please 1.   I think the move hurts his chances of making to FTC and could also hurt him with the jury if he makes it there.   

IMO, he should have told Gabby what the real vote was, but told her to stay calm, vote for Angelina as "planned" let Allison get voted off and tell her they would get Carl voted off in the next tribal council.  That would have solidified his relationship with Gabby, without killing his relationships with Davie, Nick, Carl and to a lesser extent Angelina.   

He then would have had the option to go after Carl next week, or if he wanted to cut Gabby loose, he could go that way.   Now he is stuck with Gabby, in an alliance of 2, caught between 2 alliances of 3.  Given that he is such a big threat, and has pissed and never had a super strong bond with Kara, Allison and Mike, I could see both groups (Kara/Allison/Mike and Davie, Nick and Angelina) going after him hard.   Of he has the idol and that is widely known, so it could be Gabby that goes next, instead, with the other 6 splitting their votes on Christian and Gabby to flush the idol and eliminate Gabby (or Christian if he doesn't play it or plays it on her).   

I think this might have been a catastrophic decision for Christian.     

[tiredofwork]

Quote

While I noticed the "calling a spade a spade" thing, I think Kara probably had no idea that "spade" was once sometimes used as slur on black people.  The phrase itself has nothing to do with black people.  The phrase goes back to at least 1st Century Greece.  The first recorded usage of spade as a derogatory word for black people was in 1928.    I bet if you surveyed people under 30, most would have no idea that spade has been used as a slur.  

I think some of these slip ups with people using spade or monkey are actually the result of the country being much, less racist and people not even considering any racist connotations of such words.   

Quote

I'm not willing to call Kara a bitch simply because of that. The phrase "call a spade a spade" refers to the garden tool and has been around since at least the 1500s.  It has never had anything to do with race. And, in the context Kara used it, it clearly had nothing to do with race.  I understand that the word "spade" started being used as a racial slur in the early 1900s but the idiom "call a spade a spade" is completely independent from the racial slur.  That being said, I try to avoid using the phrase altogether because I know some people take offense to it but I'm not going to condemn Kara for using it in the correct context.

Respectfully, it is these type positions that make some tone deaf to what is a backhanded.., aw shucks.., I am sorry IF I offended anyone response that I am sick to death on hearing..  It is the argument used now that the confederate flag is NOT a symbol of hate, rather it is a southern patriotic symbol of those fine outstanding forefathers that protected their right to enslave generations of African's, breed them and sell their offspring off like cattle and it is just unfortunate that some use it as the symbol to intimidate, lynch, terrorize and hate..

While the "spade" comment might have been nebulous at one time, please believe me that I am aware it is used in an offensive manner and for her to look at a Black man. while saying it.. Damn..

Edited November 29, 2018 by tiredofwork

[himela]

I didn't like this episode at all. First of all this is the first time we hear about Gabby being mad at Carl for talking down to her. Why didn't we ever see such a scene? Or did we and I don't remember it?

 

Second of all, Christian especially should know that the move to vote out Carl is bad for his game. He betrays Nick, Davie and loses Carl's jury vote. There was no reason for him to do that. Carl would never win in a final tribal council because he is disliked by all. Stupid, stupid move. So frustrating.

[Special K]

6 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

While the "spade" comment might have been nebulous at one time, please believe me that I am aware it is used in an offensive manner and for her to look at a Black man. while saying it.. Damn..

I learned this when I was a mere child from, of all things, the musical Hair.  See the lyrics to the song "Colored Spade."

Don't ask why my parents let a 9 year old listen to Hair -- they weren't very hands-on and it was a different time.  :)

[ByaNose]

5 minutes ago, himela said:

I didn't like this episode at all. First of all this is the first time we hear about Gabby being mad at Carl for talking down to her. Why didn't we ever see such a scene? Or did we and I don't remember it?

 

Second of all, Christian especially should know that the move to vote out Carl is bad for his game. He betrays Nick, Davie and loses Carl's jury vote. There was no reason for him to do that. Carl would never win in a final tribal council because he is disliked by all. Stupid, stupid move. So frustrating.

They should have waited one more round. It was dumb to vote out Carl. Just three days prior they were all working together and Carl saved your whole alliance. Girl!! Get out of here. WTH!?!?!?

[ProfCrash]

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure how much of a shot Gabby ever had.  But, I think Christian going along with her really hurt his chances.  He pissed off 4 people (3 still in the game) to please 1.   I think the move hurts his chances of making to FTC and could also hurt him with the jury if he makes it there.   

Except that Davie, Nick and Carl had left Christian out of the conversations and decisions. Christian was at the bottom of that group. So did he really hurt himself? Christian already was seen as a strong social player, he found an idol, and won immunity but he was not seen as being a strategic lead. Taking out Carl gives him a bit of strategic maneuvering and removes someone who had demonstrated that he did not want to work with Christian any more and was willing to target Christian's number one ally, Gabby.

[Jextella]

11 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

Respectfully, it is these type positions that make some tone deaf to what is a backhanded.., aw shucks.., I am sorry IF I offended anyone response that I am sick to death on hearing..  It is the argument used now that the confederate flag is NOT a symbol of hate, rather it is a southern patriotic symbol of those fine outstanding forefathers that protected their right to enslave generations of African's, breed them and sell their offspring off like cattle and it is just unfortunate that some use it as the symbol to intimidate, lynch, terrorize and hate..

While the "spade" comment might have been nebulous at one time, please believe me that I am aware it is used in an offensive manner and for her to look at a Black man. while saying it.. Damn..

Couldn't agree more on every point.  Who cares how the phrase originated.   Using the phrase at that time was not good. 

However, we have to take a step back and consider the possibility that not everyone, including Kara, may know that the word "spade" has been used negatively about black people in the past.  She just may not know that.  

2 minutes ago, himela said:

I didn't like this episode at all. First of all this is the first time we hear about Gabby being mad at Carl for talking down to her. Why didn't we ever see such a scene? Or did we and I don't remember it?

Second of all, Christian especially should know that the move to vote out Carl is bad for his game. He betrays Nick, Davie and loses Carl's jury vote. There was no reason for him to do that. Carl would never win in a final tribal council because he is disliked by all. Stupid, stupid move. So frustrating.

1

Yeah, but Christian would never betray Gabby and vice-versa - which I sort of love.  

Christian may have lost Carl and Davie, and possibly Nick, but in a jury comprised of any who remain, he'd likely get quite a few Goliath votes - the two Brochachos, Angelina and Mike (if not up against Nick), and likely Alec and Alison.    

[Ms Blue Jay]

42 minutes ago, Jextella said:

The Spencer reference went over my head but I'm ok with that.   Spencer is one of my all-time favorite players of the game.  This season hasn't played out all the way yet, but if Nick continues to deliver what we've seen so far, Nick and Spencer would be my top two favorite players - ever.

Sorry!  ; )  One of my all time favourite Survivor moments is when Kass flipped on her Brains alliance (I think) and after the votes were read Spencer immediately understood what had happened and had an outburst:  "Kass, you have zero chance of winning this game."  I'll never forget it.  It was so funny and up until then I don't remember seeing a moment like that on Survivor - one player saying something like that explicitly at Tribal Council.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Rachel RSL]

32 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

aw shucks.., I am sorry IF I offended anyone response that I am sick to death on hearing.. 

I never once said anything close to that and, to be honest, I rather resent you putting words in my mouth to make it look like I don't understand the significance of a racial slur. What I said was the racial slur "spade" and the idiom "call a spade a spade" are two completely independent things. A "spade" is a garden tool and that is what the phrase is referencing. If I say "cheese and crackers" and a white person gets offended because I used the word "cracker", I would tell them the same thing. Some words have multiple meanings and "spade" happens to be one of them. 

[Lamb18]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Right, and none of those things should be allowed in the work place.  One of my first jobs (age 19) the boss told us  all he would not tolerate crying on the job -- anyone who started to cry would be sent home.  Guess what?  No one cried. Yes, it is a perfectly normal emotion, but most of us learn to control it while in public and save it for our private moments.  I like Gabby and find her an interesting and pretty cast member, but she shouldn't expect to allow herself to cry all the time and still not be seen as "emotional." 

Unfortunately for Gabby there is no private moment on Survivor. Camera's there all the time.

She probably controls herself when she's at work. She's probably like me - she has to work out the frustration before she can think rationally again. 

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, tiredofwork said:

Respectfully, it is these type positions that make some tone deaf to what is a backhanded.., aw shucks.., I am sorry IF I offended anyone response that I am sick to death on hearing..  It is the argument used now that the confederate flag is NOT a symbol of hate, rather it is a southern patriotic symbol of those fine outstanding forefathers that protected their right to enslave generations of African's, breed them and sell their offspring off like cattle and it is just unfortunate that some use it as the symbol to intimidate, lynch, terrorize and hate..

While the "spade" comment might have been nebulous at one time, please believe me that I am aware it is used in an offensive manner and for her to look at a Black man. while saying it.. Damn..

Using a common phrase, that could be taken totally out of context and misconstrued as racist or otherwise offensive, is at worst a faux pas.  IMO, it is both ridiculous and counterproductive to lump such things in with actual, real racism.    It seems like there is often more focus on nailing people who perhaps made a poor choice of words, than dealing with genuine problems.  

Does anyone really think Kara intended to call a black man a "spade" on national TV?  Would that somehow be to her benefit in the game or in her life?

[Ms Blue Jay]

27 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Except that Davie, Nick and Carl had left Christian out of the conversations and decisions. Christian was at the bottom of that group. So did he really hurt himself? Christian already was seen as a strong social player, he found an idol, and won immunity but he was not seen as being a strategic lead. Taking out Carl gives him a bit of strategic maneuvering and removes someone who had demonstrated that he did not want to work with Christian any more and was willing to target Christian's number one ally, Gabby.

I saw zero hesitation on Carl's part to work with Christian, only willingness. I also never saw Carl target Gabby.  Carl only targeted Goliaths, and Elizabeths.

I also want to throw in that I've experienced these things in the workplace: acquisitions, mass layoffs (sometimes of very close friends, sometimes of 20-year employees), being sexually harassed, being harassed in general, and learning about the death of a coworker.  To say crying shouldn't be allowed in the workplace is something I vehemently disagree with.  To say there should be no crying in Survivor, where there are flash floods, no family, no friends, and starvation, is also something I disagree with.  

Edited November 29, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Special K]

9 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Sorry!  ; )  One of my all time favourite Survivor moments is when Kass flipped on her Brains alliance (I think) and after the votes were read Spencer immediately understood what had happened and had an outburst:  "Kass, you have zero chance of winning this game."  I'll never forget it.  It was so funny and up until then I don't remember seeing a moment like that on Survivor - one player saying something like that explicitly at Tribal Council.

The exact wording, I believe, was "zero percent chance of winning the game!" in such a snitty petulant manner.  I loved Spencer too, and that was a hilarious moment!

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Ms Blue Jay said:

I saw zero hesitation on Carl's part to work with Christian, only willingness. I also never saw Carl target Gabby.

Right, Gabby was never targeted.  Leaving her out of the voting strategy is an issue and I don't blame her for being upset about it.  But, it is not nearly as severe as being targeted by her own alliance members.  

I think Carl was probably wrong to leave Gabby out (unless there was stuff going on that we didn't see) and it put Christian in a difficult position.  Christian probably should have either convinced Carl and the others to let Gabby in on the vote ("she's emotional, she'll go nuts when she finds out") or told her, but convinced her to just keep calm, vote for Angelina and promise her they would target Don CARLeone next time, when they had a 5-3 edge and could afford to lose a David.  

[MrsR]

Kara's comment did make me gasp just a bit but it was nothing compared to Lisi in Fijji who looked at 3 African American finalists and then said while pointing her finger, "Eenie, Meenie, Miini, Mo."  Talk about feeling uncomfortable. For you younger folks, the tiger mentioned in the following line wasn't always a tiger.

I just have to LAUGH at all the uncomfortable talk about Gabby's crying.  There is actually evolutionary biology reasons for crying. There are actually 3 different types of tear ducts and different chemicals are expressed including a feel good hormone that is probably why we have the phrase, "have a good cry."  So in my world Gabby can cry away. As a technical writer I doubt she has a great deal of inter-personal stress. Also Christian's support of her is a different kind of shield. Gabby is his goat.  However I wouldn't screw around with Davie or Nick, who are excellent players.

Great episodes. Great fun season.

[iMonrey]

I finally figured out why Alison bugs me so much. She sounds and looks just like Ann Coulter.

Quote

I can't stand Gabby, and I'm ok for Christian to go too. His Sheldon Cooper shtick was cute and fun at first, but is really starting to grate. I feel like he's actually very aware of how "precious" he comes across, and some of his lines or 'explanations' feel very forced. And I know exactly what the other poster meant re: Gabby being a walking stereotype for hysterical women. It's perfectly fine to be emotional and to admit your weaknesses, but Gabby doesn't just do that - she purposely paints herself as a victim and then goes crying to Christian to 'save' her. Remember that pathetic convo they had when they were drawing in the sand earlier this season? She put on this little girl affectation and was acting like some helpless porcelain doll that Christian had to protect. Barf. I don't blame Carl for saying she was hysterical, because she often is. When she's not crying, she has these weird outbursts during her conversations with people. It's like she can't keep her shit together, and it's awkward and cringey to watch.

I could not agree more about Gabby and Christian.

I am not swayed that Gabby is simply emotional and that it's perfectly normal for her to cry. She cries all the time. She cries even when she is in the majority alliance and is in no danger of being voted out. She cries at imagined slights. She never had a chance of winning that immunity challenge because those endurance things are simply mind over matter. Once she started crying she lost any mental capacity to win.

As for Christian, I'll give him his props for winning that 5.5 hour immunity challenge but I simply cannot board the love train. Many here have expressed that they don't understand half of what he's talking about. They should consider that it's quite possible the reason they don't understand half of what he's saying isn't because it's so smart, but rather because it doesn't make any sense. There's something very performative and pretentious about the way he speaks. He likes to use big words and spew out factoids just to use big words and spew out factoids because it makes him feel important and smart. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by iMonrey

[RedbirdNelly]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

While I noticed the "calling a spade a spade" thing, I think Kara probably had no idea that "spade" was once sometimes used as slur on black people.  The phrase itself has nothing to do with black people.  The phrase goes back to at least 1st Century Greece.  The first recorded usage of spade as a derogatory word for black people was in 1928.    I bet if you surveyed people under 30, most would have no idea that spade has been used as a slur.  

I think some of these slip ups with people using spade or monkey are actually the result of the country being much, less racist and people not even considering any racist connotations of such words.   

FIFY. :)

 

I noticed it too and made a mental note to my self that I needed to research the phrase--I'm over 40 and have never heard spade used as a slur--though I've run into people flagging the phrase and have stopped using it to avoid any issues. But I grew up using that phrase to mean "call it what it is" and I always assumed the phrase somehow related to "call the spade (card) you just played a spade and stop pretending it is a club. . " so I think Kara possibly meant nothing by it beyond "call it what it is and don't dance around." Or as my husband likes to say "let's shell down the corn" before he launches into a "what's really going on here but we're being too polite to come out and say it" type conversation.

Carl did not seem to be playing the game at all--or playing at about a season 2 level. I wonder if he's watched the shows before--because at this point, you know you can't just walk around saying "vote X" to basically everyone and not expect some blow back. He seemed to make no effort at all to be stealth other than excluding Gabby.

Gabby was odd to me tonight. It may have been editing (and I will admit I was fast forwarding through bits because I did not have time for 2 hours). What I thought we saw was: (a) Gabby planning to get rid of Carl; (b) Carl (separately and later) deciding let's vote for Dr lady and exclude Gabby; (c) Gabby and Christian talking so that Gabby is up to speed; and (d) confessional from Gabby very annoyed with Carl, because if you exclude someone you are NOT IN AN ALLIANCE. The last part was just weird to me because yes, that is true--but you can't get mad about that when you (Gabby) have already decided to vote out that same "alliance" member. But maybe they flipped the order?

I would like it if Gabby cried less. I get it; people cry; I cry and I definitely cry when sleep deprived. But she sure does it a lot. I don't think she's trying to manipulate with it; she just has a low cry threshold. I understand it--I just don't really enjoy watching it.

Edited November 29, 2018 by RedbirdNelly

[Eolivet]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Carl was probably wrong to leave Gabby out (unless there was stuff going on that we didn't see) and it put Christian in a difficult position.  Christian probably should have either convinced Carl and the others to let Gabby in on the vote ("she's emotional, she'll go nuts when she finds out") or told her, but convinced her to just keep calm, vote for Angelina and promise her they would target Don CARLeone next time, when they had a 5-3 edge and could afford to lose a David.  

Yeah, I had some issues with the editing in this episode. I thought Christian's main alliance was Nick, not Gabby -- so the fact that he said it was Gabby came a little out of left field. I guess we were supposed to infer from their swapped tribe time together that Gabby > Nick, but it wasn't clear to me, especially after the "I have all the advantages" pow-wow last week.

The second question is was Gabby's fear that Angelina had replaced her in the pecking order legitimate? We certainly saw Angelina talking with the Davids, but other than from Angelina herself, did we ever get an indication if she really had been accepted into that group, or did the group think she was just voting with them? We never heard anything that I can recall from Nick or Davie about that.

If Angelina had truly replaced Gabby in the pecking order, I can see why she and Christian made the move they did (because once all the old Goliaths are gone, you're on the bottom of an alliance ostensibly controlled by someone who doesn't like you). But if this was just In The World According To Angelina, then it seems like a hasty move. But again ... we had no perspective other than Christian and Gabby on this.

[Lamb18]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm curious as to why the Goliaths plus Christian and Gabby didn't consider getting rid of Angelina.  Angelina so easily flipped to David and assumed she was with them until the end. 

For Christian and Gabby, I think it has to do with who has more power and influence within the group. Carl had that within the Davids - especially w/Davie and Nick - and Angelina doesn't have any.  For the Goliaths, they just wanted to get a David out and were fine with voting out Carl. I don't think they liked him, either.

[tiredofwork]

Quote

I never once said anything close to that and, to be honest, I rather resent you putting words in my mouth to make it look like I don't understand the significance of a racial slur. What I said was the racial slur "spade" and the idiom "call a spade a spade" are two completely independent things. A "spade"

Rachel RSL, My apologies if you assumed I was putting words in your mouth, I was merely citing a trend on people (not you as you didn't do so in your post) of people nowadays putting  phrases out there that are considered  to be  innocent words and acts.. e.g.. Hyde-Smith attending a public hanging, because...  and considered by Af/Americans such as myself words/acts that are associated with a hateful manner, then issuing that blanket apology.

So again, my post was not directed at you or intended to accuse you of anything.

Edited November 29, 2018 by tiredofwork

[Bryce Lynch]

23 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Kara's comment did make me gasp just a bit but it was nothing compared to Lisi in Fijji who looked at 3 African American finalists and then said while pointing her finger, "Eenie, Meenie, Miini, Mo."  Talk about feeling uncomfortable. For you younger folks, the tiger mentioned in the following line wasn't always a tiger.

Again, most people have no idea of any outdated racial connotation to eenie, meenie, mini mo.  I grew up in the 1970s, went to an elementary school where about half the students were black, and black kids and white kids played together and used that game to choose sides and such with nobody having a clue that someone might think it was offensive.   

[RedbirdNelly]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Again, most people have no idea of any outdated racial connotation to eenie, meenie, mini mo.  I grew up in the 1970s, went to an elementary school where about half the students were black, and black kids and white kids played together and used that game to choose sides and such with nobody having a clue that someone might think it was offensive.   

we did the same and it was only as an adult, I learned there was a different version. It was a standard way (with the tiger reference) to divide up on teams or pick who went first.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, tiredofwork said:

Rachel RSL, My apologies if you assumed I was putting words in your mouth, I was merely citing a trend on people (not you as you didn't do so in your post) of people nowadays putting  phrases out there ere that ares considered by a lot of African Americans such as myself, innocent words and acts.. e.g.. Hyde-Smith attending a public hanging, because... they didn't know it was offensive and that it has been used in a hateful manner, then issuing that blanket apology.

So again, my post was not directed at you or intended to accuse you of anything.

The public hanging comment had no genuine racial connotation.  She was joking that she liked the guy so much that she would do UNPLEASANT things like "fight a circle saw" or "attend a public hanging" if he asked her to.   Also, "public hanging" is not a synonym for "lynching".  A public hanging was typically the execution of a convicted criminal or criminals, most of whom were white.    People tried to twist it into a racial comment for political reasons.   

[JustCrazy]

I ❤️ Christian.  He’s tha man.  He gave Jeff a dose of his own medicine times 10.   Takes a drag, THAT was satisfying....Exhales slowly. 

[Bryce Lynch]

28 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

For Christian and Gabby, I think it has to do with who has more power and influence within the group. Carl had that within the Davids - especially w/Davie and Nick - and Angelina doesn't have any.  For the Goliaths, they just wanted to get a David out and were fine with voting out Carl. I don't think they liked him, either.

I think working with the Goliaths to vote out Angelina might have been a better, middle of the road, option for Christian and Gabby.  It probably wouldn't have pissed off Davie and Nick nearly as much as voting out Carl did.  Carl would have been annoyed, but it also might have signaled the end of him as "godfather" and restored a more equal balance of power to the David alliance.   

Still, I think their best option would have been going along with voting out Allison and then going after Carl next time.   

[wilful]

4 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I'm not willing to call Kara a bitch simply because of that. The phrase "call a spade a spade" refers to the garden tool and has been around since at least the 1500s.  It has never had anything to do with race. And, in the context Kara used it, it clearly had nothing to do with race.  I understand that the word "spade" started being used as a racial slur in the early 1900s but the idiom "call a spade a spade" is completely independent from the racial slur.  That being said, I try to avoid using the phrase altogether because I know some people take offense to it but I'm not going to condemn Kara for using it in the correct context.

ETA: Yeah, what Bryce said lol!

Hi Folks - Hope I clicked at the right place to reply...

 

You guys got me LOL!   The phrase "call a spade a spade" actually derives from the name of one of the suits in a deck of playing cards.  There are four suits of thirteen cards each.  The suits are Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs and SPADES.  The Spade is a black card and is in "somewhat" of a garden spade shape.  The word "call" is regularly used in card-play.

Good Survivor season with an excellent remaining cast.

[Bryce Lynch]

54 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

Yeah, I had some issues with the editing in this episode. I thought Christian's main alliance was Nick, not Gabby -- so the fact that he said it was Gabby came a little out of left field. I guess we were supposed to infer from their swapped tribe time together that Gabby > Nick, but it wasn't clear to me, especially after the "I have all the advantages" pow-wow last week.

The second question is was Gabby's fear that Angelina had replaced her in the pecking order legitimate? We certainly saw Angelina talking with the Davids, but other than from Angelina herself, did we ever get an indication if she really had been accepted into that group, or did the group think she was just voting with them? We never heard anything that I can recall from Nick or Davie about that.

If Angelina had truly replaced Gabby in the pecking order, I can see why she and Christian made the move they did (because once all the old Goliaths are gone, you're on the bottom of an alliance ostensibly controlled by someone who doesn't like you). But if this was just In The World According To Angelina, then it seems like a hasty move. But again ... we had no perspective other than Christian and Gabby on this.

Yes, it wasn't really clear if Angelina had replaced Gabby in the pecking order, or if the Davids really even accepted her as a full member as opposed to just thinking, "If she wants to vote with us, sure, why not."   

The fact that Carl and the others let Angelina in on the Allison vote, but not Gabby, gave her some pretty good reason to fear she was being replaced, though.  That said, it may have just been because Carl felt Gabby was too close to Allison, so for this one vote, they thought it would be better to keep her in the dark.   

[violet and green]

I was hoping the double episode would be because it was a such a thrilling series of events that escalated and spilled over... but no. I am deeply bummed out. First, Alec goes, and then Christian blows up his entire game with that irrational move. Jeez.

4 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

One of the stranger things in the episode I thought was Allison saying she's a huge physical threat and Mike saying she's the most competitive and a 'wonder woman'.

Hilarious! She said it with such a straight face, too. If Alec goes, she's the next big physical threat, she said ominously! Even if she meant in the Goliath remainders, Kara is much stronger than her.

I'm so angry Alison is still there and Christian has tanked his game for a wet lettuce and a weeping ninny.

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Nick is slowly becoming my favorite.  I loved his quiet little prayer of thanks for the beautiful day.

That was a beautiful moment.

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure how much of a shot Gabby ever had.  But, I think Christian going along with her really hurt his chances.  He pissed off 4 people (3 still in the game) to please 1.   I think the move hurts his chances of making to FTC and could also hurt him with the jury if he makes it there.   

IMO, he should have told Gabby what the real vote was, but told her to stay calm, vote for Angelina as "planned" let Allison get voted off and tell her they would get Carl voted off in the next tribal council.  That would have solidified his relationship with Gabby, without killing his relationships with Davie, Nick, Carl and to a lesser extent Angelina.   

He then would have had the option to go after Carl next week, or if he wanted to cut Gabby loose, he could go that way.   Now he is stuck with Gabby, in an alliance of 2, caught between 2 alliances of 3.  Given that he is such a big threat, and has pissed and never had a super strong bond with Kara, Allison and Mike, I could see both groups (Kara/Allison/Mike and Davie, Nick and Angelina) going after him hard.   Of he has the idol and that is widely known, so it could be Gabby that goes next, instead, with the other 6 splitting their votes on Christian and Gabby to flush the idol and eliminate Gabby (or Christian if he doesn't play it or plays it on her).   

I think this might have been a catastrophic decision for Christian.     

So much this. Even though this has been a fantastic season, that was a dreadful couple of episodes. I was really hoping Alec would stay. And then that. We've seen so much strategic cleverness from the Davids, it was a shock to see Christian make such an enormous blunder on so many levels.

From here on, I am rooting solely for Nick. Go Nick!

[MissEwa]

I'm trying to figure out the logic behind the 'the Davids should have stuck together and gotten all the Goliaths out' thinking given the Davids already weren't sticking together - and that was much more on Carl than it was on Gabby.

Why should she feel like a secure part of an alliance when the decision-makers in that alliance are feeding her false information? The thing with Gabby is that she's shown over and over that a) she wants to play and b) she doesn't want to be just told what to do. She flipped on Jessica because of the way Jessica and Bi were like 'this is the vote, we're not discussing it, just do it’.

A better move, if Carl was hoping to keep working with her in future, would have been to talk to her and explain why they wanted to vote the way they did, or else actually give her a say and make Mike the target. Alison is somewhat of a challenge threat, but she’s not Joey Amazing.

We talk a lot about jury management, and managing the people you're voting out, but there's something to be said for alliance management - knowing how to keep the members of your own alliance sweet, like they're involved in the decision making, not on the bottom of the alliance, and not feeling like they're just someone you're putting up with for numbers. To bring it back to the workplace analogies, if you work in a team for a while - and you're good at it - you get to know the best ways to get members of your team to respond to you; which ones need hand-holding and which ones just want to be told what to do and which ones want to feel like they're getting something out of it, and work with that. The people who make it to the end with an intact alliance that hasn't flipped on them are good at that. Carl was not. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, himela said:

I didn't like this episode at all. First of all this is the first time we hear about Gabby being mad at Carl for talking down to her. Why didn't we ever see such a scene? Or did we and I don't remember it?

 

Second of all, Christian especially should know that the move to vote out Carl is bad for his game. He betrays Nick, Davie and loses Carl's jury vote. There was no reason for him to do that. Carl would never win in a final tribal council because he is disliked by all. Stupid, stupid move. So frustrating.

I agree that it was a stupid move.  But in Christian's defense, at least it wasn't an unforced error.  So often players make proactively dumb moves that blow up their games.  In this case, Christian was put in a tough spot when Carl decided to shut his closest alliance mate, who happens to be very, emotionally volatile, out of the decision making process.   That left Christian with no perfect options.  

[HeShallBMySquishy]

9 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Although she is friends with Adam Klein and is therefore my sworn enemy, I don't wish this humiliation on her.

NOOO!!! I think KimberStormer and I will have to re-examine our hitherto unknown friendship. But I'm totally kidding. (I would totally be friends with KimberStormer, just because. I have a personal (on my end) connection to Adam Klein, and feel a warm sense of welcome with him (I just do, for me, he is someone who might feel what I'm thinking. Adam may have lost his mother in Stage 4 lung cancer, and I know how quickly that can turn against people, and it happens, and holy shit, it was not supposed to happen with her. She was a perfect candidate! She didn't deserve to  be treated unceremoniously!)

[violet and green]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree that it was a stupid move.  But in Christian's defense, at least it wasn't an unforced error.  So often players make proactively dumb moves that blow up their games.  In this case, Christian was put in a tough spot when Carl decided to shut his closest alliance mate, who happens to be very, emotionally volatile, out of the decision making process.   That left Christian with no perfect options.  

What he needed to do was talk Gabby off the ledge. Again. And after he'd calmed her down and consoled her and agreed with her (and I agree, Carl's behavior was out of line and offensive regarding dictating how this vote was to go and instructing the others they would be leaving Gabby out of the loop), he could have soothed her by explaining they would take Carl out in the following vote/s, once their numbers were assured. But no...

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, violet and green said:

What he needed to do was talk Gabby off the ledge. Again. And after he'd calmed her down and consoled her and agreed with her (and I agree, Carl's behavior was out of line and offensive regarding dictating how this vote was to go and instructing the others they would be leaving Gabby out of the loop), he could have soothed her by explaining they would take Carl out in the following vote/s, once their numbers were assured. But no...

Yes, as I have said, I think his best move would have been to tell Gabby to stay calm, go along with the "plan", get the Davids a 5-3 edge and then take out Carl next TC.   

[violet and green]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, as I have said, I think his best move would have been to tell Gabby to stay calm, go along with the "plan", get the Davids a 5-3 edge and then take out Carl next TC.   

I wish he'd done that, and then swung up an alternate plan to vote out Angelina, after her big rice 'negotiation' and 'sacrifice for the tribe' moves. That would have been a fun result.

[jumper sage]

I tend to zone out - Who found the idol?  Apparently it was not Alec.

I must admit that Carl went out with class though.  You could see when he exactly knew he was fucked and I loved it.

Angelina - or should I say???????????????????????????????????????  Who asks for food and then wants to trade their fishing gear?  IT MAKES NO SENSE!  Yep, master negotiator.

[green]

16 minutes ago, jumper sage said:

I tend to zone out - Who found the idol?  Apparently it was not Alec.

 

Nick.  Davey knows and had helped him in the search.

[LadyChatts]

3 hours ago, Jextella said:

There is an interview of Christian in which he says telling stories during tribal was pure strategy.  It was his way of stopping Jeff from asking him pointed questions....I assume to minimize risk of saying something too revealing or damaging to his game.   So smart.

And I thought I couldn't love him anymore.

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I finally figured out why Alison bugs me so much. She sounds and looks just like Ann Coulter.

Oh my gosh you are spot on!  Now I can't wait for the reunion to see how she looks with her hair down and make-up.

[Jextella]

I would like to see Davie and Nick go to the end together. They seem to be working together under the radar really really well. Next week will be a doozie.

[piewarmer]

6 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

It is a game to those of us at home. It is a game to the people out there but it is also their life. They are out of there 24/7, thinking game and eating game. They are sleep deprived, food deprived, and physically depleted. There is no time off from the game. Dan took a few hours to pout on the beach and Kara turned on him. The people on this board roasted him for taking time off from the game because you can't do that.

It is really their life, not just a game, but their life. And a rare chance to win one million dollars. It is far more stressful then my desk job where I go home after 8 hours. I can eat what I want. I can sleep in my bed. I can play with my child and dogs. I can go to the gym and burn off stress and tension. There is no release for people out there.

Yes, she needs to learn to control it. She is 25. She is pretty darn smart. I doubt that she is breaking down like this at work or home.

I'm twice Gabby's age but if you put me into a situation where I'm sleep and food deprived and by definition have to question the loyalty and motivation of every person around me who may be trying to betray me at any moment, my coping skills are going to tank and I'll probably not deal with frustration and anxiety well at all. Reason #467 why I won't ever be on Survivor.

I don't love seeing Gabby break into tears on the regular, but I can understand it a little.