S04.E09: The Watchers On The Wall 2014.06.08

[YellowWesterosKing]

Glad David Nutter was back to direct and the action scenes were great as expected.  I just wish the build-up was better.  Also, while I really do like the actors, Sam/Gilly aren't exactly the top of my list of things I care about.

As someone said above, it was Neil Marshall, director of the Blackwater episode, who did this one. Nutter took a break from the show and didn't direct any episodes this years.

After the battle when Sam went to check on Gilly, I was sure she had dismembered Slynt for his cowardice and was holding his leg as weapon. 

Oh, thank God I wasn't the only one who had that morbid thought. For a second I was like, how did you even manage to do that Gilly?!!! 

 

The episode you have to compare this to is Blackwater, and by the standards that set it is a bit dissapointing. Still epic by TV standards, but not as wowing. I agree with other's sentiments that this is the weakest of the 9's so far, but episode 10 seems to be in position to be the best finale yet.

[Lord Cranley]

RIP Sir Alliser, [....] And where was Manse? 

I didn't get the impression that Alliser died.  They just said he'd "fallen" (i.e., fallen wounded)

With Game of Thrones and comic books, unless they show the cold, dead, or headless corpse, you probably shouldn't assume they are dead (in fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Lysa survived the fall).  I could be wrong, though.

 

Manse was presumably commanding from the rear, overseeing the assault on the gate from beyond the wall. It appears that he will be in the season finale, since Jon is going to go out and try to find and kill him.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Lord Cranley

[atomationage]

I liked the episode, but next week needs to be a lot better.  The first twenty minutes dragged along. 

 

I didn't see Alliser die either.  He seemed to be injured and dragged away by other NWs. 

 

Goodbye Snowy Egret.  The kid shooting her was great.

[Etta Place]

I hate these full-episode battle episodes. Twenty minutes of it, fine. Even up to about 40 minutes, skillfully intercut with something else, anything else, happening is also fine. But an hour straight of hacking and groaning and yelling and catching on fire and being crushed and *sigh*.

 

And how exactly did we move the plot forward? Ygritte is dead, that's pretty much the only development.

 

Here's hoping the finale is Wall-free.

[bunnyblue]

 

 

The bro with the enormous meat cleaver won the episode.

Can't wait for the GIF.

 

LOL. That was the most ginormous meat cleaver in existence. Dude was going to defend his kitchen. He was a total BADASS and hot.

 

 

If a giant can just lift the outer gate and open it, why is the complicated plan with the mammoth? Just have two or three giants to open the gate and hold it while 1000 warriors storm inside.

 

Exactly. And why waste the man power and time by having the Wildlings climb the wall if the Giants can just raise the gate? Jon said the climbers wouldn't reach the top until dawn. By the time they reached the summit wouldn't they have been too dead tired to fight the Nights Watch? I remember when Jon made the climb, he and the others were exhausted.

Edited June 9, 2014 by bunnyblue

[Lady S.]

ETA: About Jon's sword - I can't remember if Ned or Mormont gave it to him? That looked like a wolf on the hilt but then Jon said Mormont told him not to lose it again. I'm confused.

It is a wolf, Mormont had it changed from a bear to a wolf before giving it to Jon.

 

If a giant can just lift the outer gate and open it, why is the complicated plan with the mammoth? Just have two or three giants to open the gate and hold it while 1000 warriors storm inside.

The mammoth was pulling it over multiple scenes, so I guess it had been loosened a good deal already.

[NJ RadioGuy]

And how exactly did we move the plot forward? Ygritte is dead, that's pretty much the only development.

 

It was the moment that Jon Snow's balls dropped, basically. The boy, student and follower learned how to lead men into battle. His turning point was after Slynt left the top of the wall. Jon was there waiting for him to give orders but when he cluck-clucked his way toward the store room Jon did what needed to be done. I'm glad to see Dolorous Edd survived, but deeply saddened to see both Grenn and Pyp cack it. That scene with Grenn and his brothers reciting their vows gave me chills and still left me verklempt at the end. What a way to go, if ya gotta go. And they held the gate. Loved, too, that Neil Marshall gave us that magnificent chain in battle (he also directed Blackwater).

[Subrookie]

I'm not great at math and all but didn't they say last episode there was something like 102 Blackwatch left? So, who's left? 6 died killing that big, giant dude and ygrette harpooned a dozen or so.

 

I thought this was a week episode for a short season. I expected a lot more. Move the plot along. 

[dramachick]

I found this battle to be much more desperate and interesting than Blackwater.  So much hand-to-hand combat rather than spraying with napalm wildfire.

 

The wildings have united and are fighting for their lives because the Whitewalkers are coming.  Totally understandable.  However, some of them -- I'm looking at you, Thenns -- just aren't fit to live amongst civilized people, so they're going to die either way unless they conform to societal norms.  Yet, that may become a moot point because the Whitewalkers are a threat to everybody, and important resources are being wasted fighting each other when they know the real danger is on its way.  So, no matter who wins, everybody still loses.  I think Jon and Ygritte may have touched on this in their argument when they first met.

 

I really liked Jon coming into his own as a leader, especially in his conversation with Ser Aliser, who still hated him but granted him the respect he was due as a kind of apology.

 

Edited to add:  If Jon doesn't kill Mance, maybe he'll be able to negotiate some kind of truce or devise a strategy with him to fight the Whitewalkers.

Edited June 9, 2014 by sukeyna

[TrininisaScorp]

Meatcleaver Iron Chef was awesome!  Even with his short screentime, he made a real impression!

 

The scythe was also the cause of "ohs" and "ahs" in my home.  I didn't know what Jon meant by it, but when they released it, we were like "oh, well that's what Castle Black had up her sleeve". 

 

I enjoyed Jon Snow!  This season has really been the first time I'm given much of a care for that character.  I could see this guy being Arya Stark's brother, you know?  I could, however, have done without the long slow mo shot of Jon holding dead Ygritte.  Come on, man!  Ain't nobody got time for that 'cause there are cannibals, mammoths (!) and giants all over your ass!  Go. Back. To. Fighting.

 

I also liked the 360 battle camera work.  It was neat stuff!

 

My only real qualm is that it is episode 9 and this dragged, especially after the last 10 mins of last week.  It is actually the first show all season that I looked at the time and it was only 938p. 

[Lotus]

I didn't see Alliser die either.  He seemed to be injured and dragged away by other NWs. 

 

 

It looked that way to me as well. Dragged off to be eaten alive. As much as I hated the character, he didn't deserve to go out like that. Poor guy

[VCRTracking]

I hope Shireen becomes friends with Ollie.

 

I liked the action and spectacle of it and the tracking shot was awesome. I look  at it this way, it means the next episode will probably be the best one out of all the season finales with lots of great stuff.

Edited June 9, 2014 by VCRTracking

[MrWhyt]

 

Dragged off to be eaten alive.

He was pulled away by other brothers of The Watch.

[CletusMusashi]

The Good: 

Giants riding on mammoths and using humungous longbows.

Allister Thorne not being completely useless

Maester Aemon playing "Did not!" "Did so!" with Sam. I loved that so much that I was afraid they were about to kill him.

The Scythe.

Absolutely no Littlefinger.

The Bad: 

Jon holding Egret for half the battle without anybody trying to kill him.

No Tyrion, Arya, or Hound.

Only one episode to go before hiatus.

The Ugly:

Half of the people Jon is close to just died this week. Can't have a war story without death, but it sucks to be him.

Slynt turning out to be more of a clueless, over-promoted coward than a real villain. Which still fits Season 2 perfectly.

Still having to worry about Tyrion's sentence and The Hound's wound.

Wondering which poor Crow has to mop up the Castle Black floors now.

[BigBeagle]

"We should have stayed in that cave."

 

Oh, my poor Ygritte, you really should have.

 

This was the first time in a long while that I gave a flip about the what was going on at the wall. Director and editor did a wonderful job splicing the battle together ... it had a wonderfully tense feel to it.

[jadiem]

I thought this was an extraordinarily well-executed television episode of a story that isn't very Game of Thrones-y.

 

The Wall really feels like a different show, with different rules.  It's much more the boyhood fantasy in spirit.  There are "knights" and desperate battles and oaths and brotherhood and monsters.  Granted, the maidens are a bit unconventional.

 

I enjoyed the episode immensely for what it was -- an epic, movie-quality battle on a TV budget -- but I can understand others being frustrated with it, especially with the clock ticking on the end of the season and the numerous unresolved storylines hanging out there.  Yet this is in fact the most important thing going on in the world of Westeros right now, right?  The lives of Pyp, Grenn and Ygritte probably matter more right now than a certain second son of the Lannisters.  Best case scenario, what would a free and acquitted Tyrion have accomplished today in King's Landing?  Yet I confess I also find his story more compelling than Jon and Sam's.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Best use of a scythe since Buffy split Caleb in two!

I was never a fan of Ygritte or her love story with Jon so I wasn't upset about her death.

This was the first episode where Jon finally got to be a badass, which was nice to see. Hopefully he doesn't get killed by Mance on his suicide mission.

Loved Grenn and the other five reciting their oath before defending the gate from the giant. Earlier in the episode, Mr. EB and I mentioned that Alliser wasn't great with the inspirational speeches (particularly the conversation he had with Jon) so it was great to see the guys give themselves their own pep talk by remembering what their mission was at the wall.

Yay for Ghost! When Sam let him out, I thought crap, if Ghost gets killed in this battle I am going to be so upset! My only complaint was that he took way too long ripping that first guy's throat out. Be efficient, Ghost!

I agree that there was too much time spent on the guys watching the wildlings. Dude, don't just watch them chain a wooly mammoth to your gate. Drop a lit barrel of oil on that thing! Shoot arrows on the guys holding its chains! Do something besides watch it happen!

[TheodoraK]

Wow, I feel like a complete idiot. I've watched this show since the beginning and I often don't know what the freak is going on. But when they have battles in the dark that I can barely see and when I've somehow missed how the wildings and giants were able to get so close to the Wall never mind scale it and I don't know why they didn't use that giant anchor thing over and over again to wipe those jackasses off the wall over and over again? Well, it pisses me off. What about pouring boiling oil on them? I apologize because I'm sure this was all made clear before. But I was bored and annoyed because there are all these other characters and storylines I care about and I will be so angry if they don't resolve the Tyrion situation next week. I'm with everyone about the ridiculous time spent on the Jon/Ygritte good-bye. All that I cared about was the 6 of them reciting their vows -- I had tears in my eyes over that one. And Ghost!!!! But why was he snacking on a dead body instead of killing some live enemies? And Jon not taking him with him, never mind a weapon, when going off to find Mance? For the rest of you who are lucky and understand this show, how does this make any sense at all? Is this part of the Night Watch vow, to commit freaking suicide after kicking giant -- literally -- ass?

[Happy Harpy]

I saw this episode compared to The Two Towers. And it indeed reminded me of a review about that movie: "In a trilogy there's a middle, and this looked like a lot of middle". (Actually, I start to feel the same way about season 4 as a whole).

 

I liked Jon Snow because he was a decent person, I love him now that he's finally assertive and yet didn't become a rotten individual. He was the best thing about the episode for me. I like that he didn't waste his time in "I told you so" with Thorne and focused on what had to be done. "I'm not a bleeding poet", line of the week for me. Drop the emo, Jon Snow!

So of course, now that I love him, he had to pull a Stark and be all honorable and self-sacrificing. Sigh. And yeah, take your damn direwolf with you.

 

I must be numbed by all the deaths, since I wasn't especially saddened by Ygritte's. I even appreciated the dark humor of the kid's nod to Jon, all proud because he saved Jon's butt (or head).

 

I was certain that Slynt was going to kill Gilly so that she wouldn't be able to tell what a coward he was. I preferred last week's Missandei/Greyworm scenes to the Sam/Gilly ones, especially since Gilly is trying my nerves at times; but considering the amount of non-consensual, weird or sickening relationships on this show, I won't complain too much about this one.

 

There were many moments I liked in this episode. Nevertheless, it suffered imo from two things. First, most people in-universe don't care about the Wall, beyond the Wall and the White Walkers and most of the big players are elsewhere; so I tend to forget, too, how pivotal it is -supposedly. It lessened the impact of the battle for me: I know how important it is that the Wall holds, but I don't feel the danger if it didn't. Second, the plethora of storylines and characters left hanging right now (some since last season)  made me wish, after the episode, that those scenes and character developments (Thorne, Pyp, Grenn) I liked while watching had been instead devoted to make all those damn plot thread advance or to develop bigger players.

So the episode was good in itself for me, but replaced in context I find myself a bit disappointed.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Lord Cranley]

I loved Rose Leslie as Ygritte, but I didn't like what her character was becoming.  Besides all the bloodthirsty butchering of Northern folk this season, she seems to have lost her sense of humor as well.

 

Was I the only one who was annoyed when she interrupted Tormund's campfire story? I WANTED TO HEAR ABOUT TORMUND AND HIS TORRID ROMANCE WITH THE SHEILA THE BEAR!

[Jeebus Cripes]

AMazing that Jon and Ygritte could have there moment where it all ends there, in the middle of the battle, with no one walking up behind Jon and killing him in the process, just sitting there waiting for just anyone to walk up behind him and stab him

 

This was just ridiculous. A better editing decision would have been to make that last shot slow motion, like the rest of the battle slowing down, if they were intent on showing him mourn her or whatever. Personally, I couldn't wait for her to die.

 

The scythe was also the cause of "ohs" and "ahs" in my home.  I didn't know what Jon meant by it, but when they released it, we were like "oh, well that's what Castle Black had up her sleeve". 

 

I nearly jumped out of my seat when that happened. What an awesome weapon! It was like an enormous windshield wiper of death!

 

I agree that there was too much time spent on the guys watching the wildlings. Dude, don't just watch them chain a wooly mammoth to your gate. Drop a lit barrel of oil on that thing! Shoot arrows on the guys holding its chains! Do something besides watch it happen!

 

There was a lot of me yelling at the TV every time they showed someone just staring down the wall. Very frustrating, yet oh-so-satisfying when they unleashed that scythe.

 

Jon Snow's plan is ten kinds of stupid.

[Lord Cranley]

 Good to see Alliser Thorne redeem himself and actually fight. I thought he'd take the cowards way out like Janos Slynt.

 

It's useful to remember who Alliser is and who Janos Slynt is.  Alliser Thorne has consistently been a bully and an asshole, but we have no reason to think he's a coward.  You don't get to be named the master-at-arms of the Night Watch, in charge of all combat training of new recruits, unless you're a great fighter yourself.  Ser Alliser was a knight before he joined the watch, and I have the impression that he was one of those people (like Benjen Stark, Commander Mormont and Jon Snow himself) who volunteered for the watch for honor's sake rather than being forced to join the Watch for committing some crime.

 

Slynt, on the other hand, is a cruel but cowardly Lannister lickspittle who murder babies and threatens dwarves but is never shown picking on someone his own size.  Tyrion was right when he told him "I'm not questioning your honor; I'm denying its very existence."

Edited June 9, 2014 by Lord Cranley

[dr pepper]

If a giant can just lift the outer gate and open it, why is the complicated plan with the mammoth? Just have two or three giants to open the gate and hold it while 1000 warriors storm inside.

 

It took the strength of the mammoth to break the bolts first.

[Isazouzi]

I see the dude with the giant meat cleaver is our new hero! Way to go, unknown extra!

 

I like how Ygritte was killed. Karma's a bitch, girl. But they ruined it with how she actually died, which was all kinds of stupid. "BTW, before I die, let's not forget that you know nothing, Jon Snow." Seriously. Stupid.

 

I wasn't impressed with this episode. The beginning of the episode dragged and even the actual fight dragged at first. Like others have said, they spent way too much time looking at the wildlings over the edge of the Wall, doing nothing. And, I couldn't help thinking that it's not easy going after the Lord of the Rings (I know it's not fair comparing tv and movies).

 

The scene with the men reciting their vows while the giant was running at them was great though. I love these vows. They have a certain solemnity that never fails to move me. But hey, who would have thunk they'd be lawyered by Sam?

 

And Ghost! So happy to see him, even for a few seconds! I've said it before and I'll say it again: I want to see direwolves kill people. Now I just hope Jon did take him with him to go see Mance, but they didn't show it because they didn't have the budget left. Unless Jon thinks the Night's Watch need Ghost more than he does? Anyway, I don't understand his plan. I'm sure Mance would agree to talk to him, but that could only happen if the first wildlings Jon runs into don't kill him on the spot. Are they disciplined enough to bring him to Mance without killing him? That seems unlikely, but who knows?

[Starving Writer]

 

I like how Ygritte was killed. Karma's a bitch, girl. But they ruined it with how she actually died, which was all kinds of stupid. "BTW, before I die, let's not forget that you know nothing, Jon Snow." Seriously. Stupid.

Somebody earlier pointed this out, and I think that person was completely right.  Ygritte's "You know nothing, Jon Snow" is the equivalent of Westley's "As you wish" in the Princess Bride.  Whenever she says "You know nothing" she's really saying "I love you." 

 

So essentially, despite everything, despite Jon Snow's apparent betrayal, in the end Ygritte still loved him and that's why she hesitated at the end.  

Edited June 9, 2014 by Starving Writer

[silverwings]

So I know this was the event battle, but I think it should have been switched with the last one.  It was very jarring to have Oberyn die and then we don't get any follow up.  Also given the order, my friends and I considered this a "breather" and a "feel-good" episode (Jon lives! Sam lives! Ghost lives! Good guys win!) which is hilarious given how many people died.  

[Quickbeam]

Scythe! Best part. I really hate the Sam/Gilly/Baby storyline so those moments were wasted on me. I'll miss Ygritte. Good rousing episode overall but once again it was shot so dark I often could not tell what was going on. Thank God for captions. 

[terrymct]

How does Jon plan to kill Mance without a sword?

 

Perhaps a Zoolander style pose-off, but this time with icy stares and lots of fur.

 

I was surprised that Jon headed north.  I thought he'd assume command of the Night's Watch.  Maybe that happens after the Mance encounter.

 

I was glad they actually did the attack on Castle Black.  I've been wondering for the last few weeks if Ygritte and the cannibals were just wandering around in circles while Mance and the gang slowly made their way south to the Wall.

 

Ygritte, you will NOT be missed.  She managed to squeeze in one more "You know nothing" on her way out to remind me how much I disliked the character.

Edited June 9, 2014 by terrymct

[Isazouzi]

Somebody earlier pointed this out, and I think that person was completely right.  Ygritte's "You know nothing, Jon Snow" is the equivalent of Westley's "As you wish" in the Princess Bride.  Whenever she says "You know nothing" she's really saying "I love you." 

 

So essentially, despite everything, despite Jon Snow's apparent betrayal, in the end Ygritte still loved him and that's why she hesitated at the end.  

 

You're absolutely right, but that doesn't make me like the way her death scene was handled anyway.

[Starving Writer]

My thoughts on this episode:

 

When compared with the other "Episode 9" this was easily the worst of the bunch.  Of course, it's hard to compete with Ned's beheading, the Battle of Blackwater, and the Red Wedding.  Last week's cliffhanger would've made for a better Episode 9, honestly.  

 

Part of the problem is that the "Wall" storyline is one of my least favorite storylines on this show.  It just feels so disconnected from everything else that's going on.  And after that huge ending last week, this was an abrupt departure.  The Wildlings battle might had been vitally important to the overall plot of this series, and it was visually impressive, but the story didn't really have enough gravitas to uphold an entire episode.

 

What also hurts is the fact that there was only one major character (Jon Snow) and a couple of minor characters (Sam, Ygritte) in this episode, and Jon really isn't a strong enough character to carry an entire episode by himself.  At least the other stand-alone episode, Blackwater, had several major characters and viewpoints to rotate through (Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei, Joffrey, Stannish), and also was upheld by interesting supporting characters in Bronn, the Hound, and Davos.  So even though that episode centered around one event, there were still enough perspectives to go through to make everything fresh.  That was lacking in this episode.   

 

Had Ygritte and the rest of the Wildlings been built up earlier to be more sympathetic, and had we gotten some more understanding of Mance Ryder beforehand, that might've improved this episode.  As it stands, I felt underwhelmed by this episode and honestly felt as if it was just delaying the really juicy parts that's sure to come up and the storylines I really wanted to see (especially the King's Landing stuff).   

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Allister was slashed in the gut, so he probably bled out after being dragged away by his men.

 

Like others stated, a total asshole but  stepped up to the plate and kicked some Wilding ass.

 

The way dude  admitted Jon was right about sealing the tunnel, true  to the character.

Edited June 9, 2014 by MrsRafaelBarba

[MarySNJ]

Good episode overall, although I really wish the men on the wall hadn't spent so much time watching the wildings set up to pull down the gate. It felt like the director/writers wanted to show this really cool thing instead of sticking to the reality of the situation. I do appreciate their continued correct terminology regarding "loosing" the arrows instead of "firing".

 

Do you remember what episode this was in?

Actually,  it was Davos who read the letter from Aemon last season and brought it to Stannis's attention in episode 10 (I think?), and the Melisandre confirmed that they should go. It's a long way to the Wall via Bravos, I guess.

[WearyTraveler]

RIP to those brave six that held the gate, that was a great scene. 

 

One of my favorite of the night! Gave me goose bumps and made me choke (I was sad with some of the other developments but didn't choke for any of them). Grenn was all kinds of awesome there, propping his men up, even though he knew they were going to die. It was also great to see Jon later closing his eyes and saying that he held the gate.

 

Why is Jon not taking Ghost on his march to Mance?

 

I would guess because he intends to kill Mance and wants to throw them off any suspicion they might have when they see him walking up to their camp. He wants to appear as little threatening as possible, so, walking up to them with Ghost in tow would not be a good idea.

 

 

I had no idea what a scythe was.  Now, I'll never forget.

 

That was totally unexpected and all kinds of awesome.

 

If a giant can just lift the outer gate and open it, why is the complicated plan with the mammoth? Just have two or three giants to open the gate and hold it while 1000 warriors storm inside.

 

Maybe that's what Mance plans to do in his next attack.  Jon did say that was a test run and we have been told he has 100,000 Wildlings, so he has the luxury of trying several strategies, see what works and then regroup for a more efficient attack.  Jon knows the Wall will fall if they don't do something other than fight a relentless horde of Wildlings being thrown at it, which is why he decided to go and kill Mance.  May the old Gods be with him.

Edited June 11, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Starving Writer]

And one more thing ... 

 

This episode is virtually the dictionary definition of "Pyrrhic victory."  Before this episode, it was stated that the Night's Watch had 102 men left.  How many died in this episode alone?  6 died defending that gate, Pyp died, that guy was sent sailing over the wall by the giant, and Ygritte took out a whole bunch of crows herself.  That Thenn cannibal took out maybe five himself before Sam brought him down.  It honestly looked like the Night's Watch lost about half of their men in this battle.  And Mance Ryder's army barely got a dent in it.  How many Wildlings died?  Even if I'm being kind, maybe 250 total of them died.  That still leaves well over 99,000 Wildlings (plus giants and mammoths) left to take on the remaining 50 Night's Watch.  I wish Jon Snow had made the urgency of his suicide mission due to the NW's dwindling numbers more apparent.  They are not outnumbered 1,000 to 1 anymore.  It's more like 2,000 to 1 now.  

[DrSpaceman]

Exactly. And why waste the man power and time by having the Wildlings climb the wall if the Giants can just raise the gate? Jon said the climbers wouldn't reach the top until dawn. By the time they reached the summit wouldn't they have been too dead tired to fight the Nights Watch? I remember when Jon made the climb, he and the others were exhausted.

 

I think its all tactical.  They wall raiders how MANY MORE forces and the wall protectors are a small troup.  They are attacking on multiple fronts to spread the already meager forces thin.  They have men to spare and can use them anywhere and everywhere to make the wall army defend in many spots.  They have to be up on the wall to keep people from going over the top, down in the wall gates to keep anyone from going there and down at the main entrance to defend, makes it hard to protrect all that with a small force.  Its a spread and attack focus to keep the wall protectors from being able to bunch together "300" style in a powerful united force to keep anyone from making it through the wall in one spot. 

[Aethermancer]

Exactly. And why waste the man power and time by having the Wildlings climb the wall if the Giants can just raise the gate? Jon said the climbers wouldn't reach the top until dawn. By the time they reached the summit wouldn't they have been too dead tired to fight the Nights Watch? I remember when Jon made the climb, he and the others were exhausted.

 

No one has ever really tried to 'lift' the gate before though.  It's not like there are power-lifting competitions at the Wall to see who can do it.   The lifting of the gate seemed more of an adrenaline-rage one-off thing that most people probably didn't think was possible.  The giants aren't dumb, and they were going along with the mammoth plan.  It probably never even occurred to the one that lifting it was possible.

 

If you noticed, the barrel release mechanism jammed (and later exploded).  Pretty much everyone there was either counting limbs, putting out fires, or trying to regroup.  One of the 'leaning' archers fell, and the other looked to be in fear of the same fate.  Basically it looked like they WOULD have dropped another barrel, if not for the fact that they had no mechanism (or upright people) to actually drop the barrel at that time.

[seacliffsal]

I actually loved this episode.  After the first 15 minutes (don't care about Sam's love for Gilly, etc.), I was tense for the rest of the episode with the exception of Ygritte's death scene.  I just could not believe how long that lasted-and that the background music obviously implied that I should be sad at her death.  In actuality, all I could think of were the numerous, nameless innocents she had slaughtered and wished that Jon would have looked at her and then gone on fighting signifying that his loyalty is with the Night's Watch, not her.  I also felt that his scene with her would send the wrong message to the young boy who killed her to save Jon (kind of no, no, some of the wildings are our friends....).

 

I think that Ghost wasn't released earlier because the LC had ordered Jon to lock up Ghost in an earlier episode and as Jon was on the wall when the battle started, he didn't have a chance to unlock him before sending Sam down (and it may have needed to be someone Ghost recognized as a friend of Jon's or Ghost might have gone after whoever unlocked the door).  However, I do wish that Ghost was featured more as I am much more interested in the direwolves than the dragons and was excited to see one in action.

 

The deaths of Pyp and Grenn were tragic and I really felt their loss.  I was anxious as I didn't know who would win the battle at the castle-it really could have gone either way (unspoiled).  I also liked how it was very organic how Jon became the leader-even when Sam told him he couldn't make the decisions and Jon was like 'there's nobody else....'  I am concerned about Jon going out alone, but it seemed very much like something Ned Stark would do and that Jon was basing his leadership on Ned.  I wish he had taken Ghost, but maybe he doesn't want to endanger Ghost and wants at least a chance for his Night Watch brothers by leaving Ghost with them.

 

Overall, even with the Gilly and Ygritte stuff, I was fascinated and excited by this episode which hasn't really happened for a while.  The events of this episode mattered and I'm sure will also be important as the series progresses (unspoiled).

[atomationage]

 

Before this episode, it was stated that the Night's Watch had 102 men left.  How many died in this episode alone?

Sometimes it was hard for me to tell who were NW and who were WIldings, but it seems to me that, by the number of deaths shown, all 102 NW should be gone now.  Dolorous Edd should be in charge of The Wall now. 

[Katalina]

I'm surprised that the battle took an entire episode, and I'm truly surprised I enjoyed it (battle scenes pall for me after about 5 minutes). And I too loved the scythe-on-a-chain--great secret weapon!

 

After 3 seasons of mostly indifference to Jon Snow, Season 4 has made him my new favorite character. Finding his leadership skills has added immeasurably to his sexiness.

 

I was annoyed that Ygrette got in one more damn "you know noooothing" before dying.

 

I'm hoping against hope that the final episode will be two hours--there's a lot  to deal with.

[bravelittletoaster]

Most pointless episode of the series for me. They could have told that "story" in 15 minutes and focused on other plot threads. When I saw Kit Harringtin had top billing and only a small handful of actors were billed I knew it didn't bode well for my interests.

[Aethermancer]

One of the things that keeps coming up is that people seem to think that Jon should have taken Ghost, or at least his sword to go after Mance, but it would make absolutely zero sense to do something like that:

 

The last time Jon was with Mance, he put himself forward as a deserter and someone willing to fight for the wildlings.  To the wildlings, he will be seen as the dirtiest of traitors.  He needs to leave Ghost behind because nothing will say "Hey, look, it's that guy with the wolf who is back to being a crow.  Looks like he betrayed us all" like walking up with an albino dire-wolf.   He and Ghost would have 400 arrows sticking out of them before they crossed half the field.

 

However, if Jon goes forward just dressed in black and looking like an envoy, he will look just like any other nightwatchmen.  Out of 100,000 people, only a fraction would recognize him as Jon Snow.   So he can get close to Mance, at least close enough to talk a bit before being summarily executed.

 

As for his sword Longclaw, It would be stripped from him before he got within 200m of Mance.   You don't really think they would let him in there with ANY weapons, let alone a Valyrian steel bastard sword, do you?   Jon is going on the hope that there will be some sort of weapon he can get his hands on when he meets with Mance, because he certainly won't be allowed to bring any of his own.

 

So, in summary, Jon leaves Ghost and Longclaw behind because they would be killed/taken from him anyway.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aethermancer

[mojoween]

Out of curiosity, if they had closed the tunnel, what part of last night's battle would not have happened?

I felt nothing when Ygritte died. I didn't feel in any way in the story that either she or Jon was going to change who they were, her saving of Gilly notwithstanding. So their entire relationship was pointless, to me anyways.

I loved the shot when Slynt unlocked the door and suddenly Gilly was there. He looked at her, she gaped at him, and then it cut away and you didn't know what he was going to do her. Well done.

Edited June 9, 2014 by mojoween

[Happy Harpy]

 

Out of curiosity, if they had closed the tunnel, what part of last night's battle would not have happened?

Initially, I don't know, I guess they wouldn't have to divide their forces to prevent an invasion; but in the end, they wouldn't have had to send (and therefore wouldn't have had to lose) 6 men in order to prevent an entrance from there? And Grenn and his bag of sarcasm would still be there.

 

I realized there's another thing that lessened the impact of the battle for me.

If the Wildlings take Castle Black and start to invade the North, they'll certainly encounter its new wardens, the oh-so charming Boltons, willing to protect their territory. The Free Folk might be a hundred thousand and they might have cannibals with them, but against the Flayers? I'm pretty sure I'll end-up feeling sorry for the Wildlings.

In the same way, OK, White Walkers are evil monsters -or at least, they look the part- and OK, they kill people. Only, I don't remember them acting needlessly cruel. Now that I know they don't kill the babies, unlike people like Slynt do, I'd even argue they seem way less cruel or terrifying than many human beings (and I use the term loosely) who live South of the Wall.

[fantique]

I was actually pleasantly by this episode. I really thought an entire episode at the Wall wouldn't hold but I actually cared and stayed engaged. In fact when the credits rolled in I thought 'Oh already?' but then again it was relatively shorter than most episodes this season IIRC. I liked the opening sequence, the topic of the conversation did not matter as much as the interaction it showed and it summed up both characters really well I think. It showed their friendship and how they complement each other. While Sam/Gilly is not the most interest grabbing for me, I like what it allows me to learn about Sam and it's cute and healthier than most ships on the show so I don't mind. I did think the Ygritte death scene went on for too long but I liked the fact that it's the kid who killed her (weird thing to say).

I like that it brought back the stakes of the Wall drama. When I first started watching I was intrigued by the Wall and the whole thing about winter coming. I mean if the White Walkers invade the Seven Kingdoms... Iron Throne what? King Who?

I assume I will feel like it's a nice break when watching the finale. I needed a reprieve after last week anyway.

[proserpina65]

I don't know why they didn't use that giant anchor thing over and over again to wipe those jackasses off the wall over and over again? Well, it pisses me off. What about pouring boiling oil on them?

It looked like the scythe would only work once the climbers got up to a certain height, so they had to wait to use it.  And I suspect, based on Grenn's comment to Ser Alliser that he'd just brought up the last barrel of oil, that they had a limited supply, and therefore it made sense to wait until the mammoth and its accompanying crew were close enough to get hit by the oil before dropping it; it did seem like they could've done that a few minutes earlier, but it would've been wasting precious resources to do it too early.

 

 

Was I the only one who was annoyed when she interrupted Tormund's campfire story? I WANTED TO HEAR ABOUT TORMUND AND HIS TORRID ROMANCE WITH THE SHEILA THE BEAR!

Nope, you're not the only one.  I was glad he told the bear story, but I wanted to hear the rest of it.

Edited June 9, 2014 by proserpina65

[terrymct]

I was actually pleasantly by this episode. I really thought an entire episode at the Wall wouldn't hold but I actually cared and stayed engaged. In fact when the credits rolled in I thought 'Oh already?' but then again it was relatively shorter than most episodes this season IIRC. 

 

 

Once the fighting in the Castle and the charge toward the wall from the north ended, everyone seemed to be walking around without wondering whether the gates and the six young men had held.  I kept expecting to see everyone chatting in the Castle yard while a pissed off giant emerged from the tunnel.

 

Maester Aemon's talk with Sam was interesting and feels like it might be important later on.  Somewhere, there is or was a young woman who had a romance with a Targeryan.  A potential cousin for Dany somewhere in the Seven Kingdoms?

[proserpina65]

we have been told he has 1,000 Wildlings

Actually it's 100,000 wildlings.

 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Nick breaks down the Wall-y World episode!

[proserpina65]

Most pointless episode of the series for me. They could have told that "story" in 15 minutes and focused on other plot threads. When I saw Kit Harringtin had top billing and only a small handful of actors were billed I knew it didn't bode well for my interests.

I see comments like this but you have to realize that the show isn't catering to just a certain subset of viewers.  They have to cover a wide swathe of storylines, and really, what's happening at the Wall (and what will happen if it isn't held) renders everything else kind of pointless in the end.  And no way could they have covered the battle for the Wall in 15 minutes; that would've made it all look silly.

[Tryangle]

I'm not great at math and all but didn't they say last episode there was something like 102 Blackwatch left? So, who's left? 6 died killing that big, giant dude and ygrette harpooned a dozen or so.

 

 

And one more thing ... 

 

This episode is virtually the dictionary definition of "Pyrrhic victory."  Before this episode, it was stated that the Night's Watch had 102 men left.  How many died in this episode alone?  6 died defending that gate, Pyp died, that guy was sent sailing over the wall by the giant, and Ygritte took out a whole bunch of crows herself.  That Thenn cannibal took out maybe five himself before Sam brought him down.  It honestly looked like the Night's Watch lost about half of their men in this battle.  And Mance Ryder's army barely got a dent in it.  How many Wildlings died?  Even if I'm being kind, maybe 250 total of them died.  That still leaves well over 99,000 Wildlings (plus giants and mammoths) left to take on the remaining 50 Night's Watch.  I wish Jon Snow had made the urgency of his suicide mission due to the NW's dwindling numbers more apparent.  They are not outnumbered 1,000 to 1 anymore.  It's more like 2,000 to 1 now.  

 

The Watch would have also been bolstered somewhat by the villagers who fled from the rampaging wildlings. So, maybe an extra 100 or so (including that kid) untrained fighters defending the Wall. But however you look at it, numbers are thin now.