S04.E04: Wet Hot American Bummer

[scarynikki12]

Quote

When the Legends discover that kids at a summer camp have disappeared, Sara, Ava, Ray and Constantine find themselves as the new camp counselors.

 

[scarynikki12]

Mick bonding with Charlie over doing time. Be still my heart. Love her makeover. 

I enjoyed younger Sara and Ava. We know so little about Sara’s childhood and it’s nice to learn that she went to camp and had fun. And Ava got to experience a bit of childhood for real. 

Ray and Constantine being Camp Counselor partners was great. I like that Con tried to give Ray some perspective regarding what may happen if he pursues Nora. If Ray still goes for it at least he’s not going in blind. 

Ray being a good influence on his campers is excellent and young Toby was hilarious. 

They should have known the bad guy from jump. His name was Chad for heavens sake! Still a nice setup for the reveal. 

Nora working at a Ren Faire making bad food. Makes sense. 

[Sakura12]

I'm glad they kept Sara being good with kids, she babysat and took Sin and Jax under her wing. I also liked them bringing up Ava being a clone and never being a child. I hope someone took a picture of Ava as a kid so she'd have another photo to have somewhere to make her life more real. The kid actors playing them were pretty good. 

I continue to love that this show mixes up the pairings. John and Ray were fun. It seems Constantine and Charlie will be learning the same lesson by hanging out with the rest of the misfits. I loved her and Mick commiserating over doing time. Mick trusts his team. Although we never heard Sara say she wouldn't put Charlie back in a cage. 

I should've known the monster being was the overeager good looking guy. I'm guessing Constantine's down for the count next episode which is good I want the Legends to save the day again. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Sakura12

[tennisgurl]

They actually got Constantine to wear a costume! Truly these are magical times. 

I thought Sara/Ava were good this week, and I enjoyed getting more into their backstories. I've been wanting them to bring up Ava being a clone for awhile now (I am still half convinced that the first Ava we met was a different clone than the one we met after Beebo day) and not knowing how to relate to kids, as she never was a kid, was a good way to bring it into the story. The young actresses playing little Sara and Ava were good as well, especially little Sara. She really had Sara's mannerisms down. I also like that they remember that Sara is good with kids/teens. Of course, she is already the long suffering mom of the Legends, so its not that surprising ;) 

Constantine and Ray were also a good pairing, Ray is always fun mixed with someone darker and more cynical. I was getting serious season one Ray/Snart vibes with their interactions, with Ray as the happy boy scout and Constantine as the bad boy who tries to warn Ray off of him, but finds himself reluctantly charmed. Looks like Constantine might be out of the action last week, so that will bring Nora back into the action. Nora, who is currently lying low at a ren fair, as a witch...a lusty one! I am interested to see what a Nora/Ray pairing would really be like. Would she become better, as we saw earlier, or would some of her darkness rub off on him? Maybe some of both? 

I love that rays campers learned survival skills from him. A tiny squad of tiny Rays! 

Loved Mick and Charlie bonding over jail time, and booze. And a shout out to the Gulag in season one! I dig her new outfit, I think she could be a fun new addition to the team. 

[Alice Mudgarden]

I love this show so much.

I know that's really nondescript and can be a post in literally any thread for any episode of this show, but I stand by it.

 

This episode's Tiny Bits of Joy:

Sara's braids

Ava's I'm Sorry friendship bracelet

Mick's gulag booze

Ray's dorky lanyard

Constantine's sleeve cigs

Ava's scrunchie

Gideon's phone call to Sara

Toby's makeshift stretcher

[Cthulhudrew]

Can we add Chad Stevens to the cast and replace Gary? Please?

Seriously, if this wasn't an episode of Legends, it could totally be an 80s teen camp comedy (or horror). Complete with Constantine as the "bad boy" counselor.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Maverick]

Ray's hair was not working for me in this episode.  Get a haircut, back off the volumizer, something.

 I'm disappointed in Sara not picking up on Chad.  I was also disappointed in Constantine not trying to shag him.

 So Charlie's contribution to the team is going to be acting like the spotter from Black Lightning?

 Gideon has been almost non-existent this season an it's quite annoying.

[Cthulhudrew]

1 minute ago, Maverick said:

Ray's hair was not working for me in this episode.  Get a haircut, back off the volumizer, something.

I think it was deliberate, to fit the '90s look of the summer camp.

I second you with Gideon, though. They should have found a way to find her a body (even just her holographic form from other episodes) and work her in as a regular, to fill out their dwindling cast.

[kdm07]

I remember going to camps out in the woods so this was such a call back episode for me lol.

I usually get a few good chuckles from every Legends episode but the first half of tonight's episode had me laughing out loud! Another great episode in what has been a great season so far.

[Maelstrom]

Another fun episode! I actually enjoyed the B story with Mick and Charlie more than the camp story, and wish we could have gotten more. I find it interesting watching Mick be the first to bond with cynical new Legends, as he did with Zari in her first episode. Looking forward to seeing them finally capitalize on Dominic and Maisie’s chemistry whether or not ends up being romantic or platonic. I have to say by the end of the ep I only see Charlie when I watch her now, and have stopped thinking of her as just an Amaya lookalike. Love her new punk look.

Camp was fun, and the casting of Young Sara and Young Ava was spot on. I’m impressed by Sara’s braids and Ava’s scrunchie. I seriously wanted to kick Constantine for being mean to Ray (it’s like being mean to a puppy!) but he redeemed himself a bit by giving some of his own life force to save the last kid. And I appreciated that Charlie’s help was instrumental in stopping the monster instead of just Constantine pulling a deus ex magica.

Poor Nora, being stuck as eye candy at a Ren Faire is probably a level of hell just as awful as being host to Mallus. Can’t wait to see where her story goes from here - this show does a good growth/redemption arc so it should be fun.

[Cthulhudrew]

Dangit, Chad! I had a feeling you were going to be involved in the nastiness. Why couldn't you have just been an annoyingly chipper Camp Counselor? :(

[Check Sanity]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I continue to love that this show mixes up the pairings. John and Ray were fun. It seems Constantine and Charlie will be learning the same lesson by hanging out with the rest of the misfits. I loved her and Mick commiserating over doing time. Mick trusts his team. Although we never heard Sara say she wouldn't put Charlie back in a cage. 

 

I appreciate that about Mick. When Charlie started trying to get to Mick, I found myself thinking "you're barking up the wrong tree". Though their bonding did get him to release her, it also got her to come around on the Legends, forming the foundations of trust. I really liked that. Though, yes I did note that Sara didn't promise anything. I'm hoping that comes into play in needing her to be in a cage as bait type scenario, and not sending her to hell.

1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

 I find it interesting watching Mick be the first to bond with cynical new Legends, as he did with Zari in her first episode. Looking forward to seeing them finally capitalize on Dominic and Maisie’s chemistry whether or not ends up being romantic or platonic. I have to say by the end of the ep I only see Charlie when I watch her now, and have stopped thinking of her as just an Amaya lookalike. Love her new punk look.

 

Poor Nora, being stuck as eye candy at a Ren Faire is probably a level of hell just as awful as being host to Mallus. Can’t wait to see where her story goes from here - this show does a good growth/redemption arc so it should be fun.

1

He's only bonded with the female cynical Legends though, he still distrusts Constantine who is as cynical as one can be.
I'll respond to the Nora bit below.

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Looks like Constantine might be out of the action last week, so that will bring Nora back into the action. Nora, who is currently lying low at a ren fair, as a witch...a lusty one! I am interested to see what a Nora/Ray pairing would really be like. Would she become better, as we saw earlier, or would some of her darkness rub off on him? Maybe some of both? 

 

I'm going to admit, I haven't watched last season in full. I've seen big chunks, but none of it had to do with Nora, so I haven't seen her be super evil or whatever. I'm just going on tonight's peek at her, and her innocent/confused response to the guy calling her a lusty wench/witch is the side of her I think that Ray sees in her. It was also very reminiscent of Ray to me. I find it hard picturing Ray having darkness rub off on him, he's experienced some terrible things and he's still the way he is. However, I do think he's going to be taught some things, but I'm thinking it's going to be Constantine that can't be saved the way Ray would want, not Nora. 

Loved Toby and his baseball confusion and end scene. Also liked seeing Ray and Sara's influence on the kids. 
I also appreciated that defeating the baddie this week was physically a little harder for Ava and Sara because they were in kid bodies and not their full strength. 
I was a little surprised they were going to have Ava and Sara kiss as kids, but then the lights started and I was like "yeah, that makes more sense". 

[Cthulhudrew]

When Mick and Charlie were bonding, and she talked about being trapped in a prison for 500 years, I was kind of hoping Mick would chime in with "Yeah, that's always a rough stretch. Especially when they brainwash you and turn you into a time traveling bounty hunter afterwards."

I mean, I understand why the show never tries too hard to reference the first season, but I do think there is some good territory to mine with Mick's Chronos phase.

[BaggythePanther]

 Just read the AV Club’s review of the episode. It turns out that the AV Club “Swamp Thaaaang” D+ review Ava read in the episode was actually a quote from the AV Club’s D+ review of LoT’s 1x12 episode “Last Refuge”. Someone in the writers room has been holding on to that grudge for a while.

I enjoyed the episode but I was more interested in the Mick/Charlie/Zari which didn’t get a lot of time. My favorite part was Sara calling for Gideon while she was at Ava’s place. 

36 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

When Mick and Charlie were bonding, and she talked about being trapped in a prison for 500 years, I was kind of hoping Mick would chime in with "Yeah, that's always a rough stretch. Especially when they brainwash you and turn you into a time traveling bounty hunter afterwards."

I mean, I understand why the show never tries too hard to reference the first season, but I do think there is some good territory to mine with Mick's Chronos phase.

Mick referenced the first season tonight when he mentioned that he had been locked up in a Russian gulag. I’d love it if they made a reference to Chronos.

[thuganomics85]

Ray really would be right at home as a camp counselor!  Watching him team up with Constantine this go around was great.  Really, he and Brandon Routh have really been a highlight during these first few episodes.  The memories of when I initially disliked him on Arrow continue to fade.

Sara and Ava bonding during the mission was also pretty good, and I liked that Sara was actually good at interacting with the children and the camp aspects (basically, remembering she had a life before the whole turned into an assassin/dying thing, heh), while Ava struggled because she never had a real childhood due to being a clone.  Great casting with the actresses they got to play the teenage versions of them as well.

Already enjoying Charlie as the new, reluctant team member, and her scenes with Mick were great as expected.  Maisie Richardson-Sellers and Dominic Purcell really seem to enjoy working with each other.

Not much Zari this go around, but she still had some good reaction shots and snarky, one-liners.

So, it looks like Constantine is going to be down for the count for a bit, and now Nora's re-entering the picture, since they hope she can help him.  And she's apparently undercover as a Renaissance Fair?  Ha!

Totally noticed the AV Club reference, and I didn't realize it was taken from an actual review.  I can't remember much about that particular episode, although I guess I'm not too surprised since season one was admittedly pretty rough.

[Starfish35]

First miss of the season for me.  Not a terrible episode, but not one I’ll be in a hurry to revisit.  From the promo pics, the  whole camp set-up looked like it would be hilarious, but somehow I just didn’t find it all that funny.  There were funny moments, of course. Usually something to do with Constantine and his utter exasperation with the whole situation.  But mostly...yeah, not so much.  Something about it all just felt off.  Legends at its best bounces between outright insanity and sincere emotional moments for the characters, and this didn’t really hit either point well (IMO). 

I did enjoy the Mick/Charlie bonding scene.  Also Ava referring to being a clone and that she was never a child; I always felt like she got over that way too quickly.  And Ray and Constantine had some good scenes.  But overall, yeah, not my favorite.  

[Proteus]

Wow. Amazing episode. Definetely my favorite of the season. All of the Sara/Ava content was awesome. Caity & Jes were hilarious in their camp counselor scenes. I loved Kid Sara & Ava! Those two little girls were awesome. So many great Avalance moments. This episode really delivered for this Sara/Ava fan.

Finally Nora is back. I've been waiting for her to show up. I'm looking forward to when she & Ray come face to face.

I wonder if Constantine will become Rays new bro to replace way. Matt & Brandon were really good together. I loved their pairing this episode.

So glad to see Mick & Charlie bond. Legends dropped the ball with Mick/Amaya scenes last season so I'm glad to get some tonight.

All & all, ten out of ten for me. I'll be rewatcthing this episode a lot.

[johntfs]

I felt sad for Zari experiencing donutus-interruptus.  As fun as the camp scenes were, I liked the Mick/Charlie interaction more.  That was another scene in which Mick shows that he's much smarter, or at least much wiser that he lets on.  I'm kind of looking forward to a bit were Sara leaves the ship (perhaps for private time with Ava) and leaves Mick in charge.

[Sakura12]

I loved this episode, its my favorite so far. Since it was more focused on the characters than the creature of the week. I loved what we got with Mick/Charlie, Constantine/Ray and Sara/Ava. 

Sara was a bad ass as a kid too, her favorite stuffed animal was a shark and she loved horror movies. Maybe loving camp helped her when she was on Lian Yu. 

I know they wanted the moment for Avalance but I would've loved to see kid Sara go on the Waverider and start telling Gideon they are good to go back home and have Mick and Zari be like who the f is this kid? Then recognize that its Sara. I'd love to have seen little Sara leading the team. 

I also loved that it was Mick that got through to Charlie. Hopefully we get to see Sara and Charlie talk, because while Sara may not act like it anymore she was more like Charlie when she was younger. She never did time but was most likely was in a hell dimension for the dead since they had to get her soul back from there. 

I forgot that I loved that Sara and Constantine brought a flask to camp with them. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

This was a really fun episode. The camping theme was great especially with the team they chose to focus on.

Turning Sara/Ava into children made me wish that they'd had had some Arrowverse characters at the camp as kids. Little Oliver/Laurel/Sara or Barry/Iris.

[MarkHB]

14 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

I have to say by the end of the ep I only see Charlie when I watch her now, and have stopped thinking of her as just an Amaya lookalike. Love her new punk look.

I never thought that I'd be able to look at Grant Gustin and not see Sebastian Smythe, and was surprised at how quickly I only saw Barry.  Charlie is even more of a change from Amaya to me.

[PhoneCop]

1 hour ago, MarkHB said:

I never thought that I'd be able to look at Grant Gustin and not see Sebastian Smythe, and was surprised at how quickly I only saw Barry.  Charlie is even more of a change from Amaya to me.

Well, now that the Glee topic has been broached, I guess I might as well point out that Chad was played by Mason Trueblood, who was (officially!) credited on that other show as "Super Gay Warbler."

I'm not sure last night changed that character perception for me, though.

[twoods]

I like Charlie and am glad that the actress gets to use her real accent. It seems as if she’s a lot more comfortable as Charlie than she ever was as Amaya, and loving her with Mick.

Ray and Constantine were fun together. I love this show because they all work so well together. I miss Wally and Jax.

[DearEvette]

17 hours ago, Maverick said:

Ray's hair was not working for me in this episode.  Get a haircut, back off the volumizer, something.

Aww... I loved how extra bouffant-y his hair was.  It just added to the dorkiness.

For me, Ray and Mick were the MVPs this episode.  I just loved all the extra little personality bits they gave to Ray.  Of course he loved Summer camp.  Of course he made his own special lanyard!  Of course he liked all of Chad's stupid 90s jokes.  Of course his survival techniques came into play to help save the day.  Man, I loved Ray this episode.  He made Constantine bearable to me.

And then Mick.  Gulag booze and understanding helped with bond with Charlie.  I always had a soft spot for any Mick/Amaya interaction so getting that in this version of Mick and Not!Amaya is very satisfying for me.  And even though I miss Amaya-the0charcater, I am loving how I don't see a speck of Amaya in Charlie.  What a difference attitude and her own accent makes. 

I am not gonna lie, I think Ava deserved the prank the kids played on her.  But I enjoyed her and Sara's mini-subplot.  Also the child actors who played them were excellent.

Did I miss it or was the Director of the camp just a mean old lady or was there something more (earthly) sinister about her? They kinda just left her laying on ground in the woods.  Heh.

Great end tag with Nora.

I just love this show!

Edited November 13, 2018 by DearEvette

[Goldmoon]

Stopping by to defend Ray's hair!  I want it as long and lovely as it was in last season's finale.  Don't like Ava anyway and she was nigh unbearable in this episode.  She totally deserved the prank. Don't like children either, so this episode is a total miss for me, however - Mick and Charlie can bond and can romance or not.  What I don't want to see is for Charlie to transfer her attention from Mick to Nate or whoever like Amaya did.  Let Mick have a girl bestie!  Especially since Ray left Mick for Nate as well.  In fact, let me just say the second best part of this ep, besides Mick and Ray'sHair was the absence of Nate.  More please.  Or is that less please?  When they named the Striga I thought they should call Dean and Sam Winchester for help!

[Starfish35]

I didn’t understand why Sara was just standing back and letting Ava run things her way. Sara’s certainly not incapable of laying down the law herself, and while I understand not wanting to start a fight in front of the kids, I was expecting Sara to eventually pull her up short and tell her to back off with the drill sergeant routine. 

[Sakura12]

Well they were trying to find the monster as quick as they could. She let Ava try it her way first. Plus shes the one that invited her along. 

Sara did try to talk to Ava about her drill sergeant routine, that's why they did the become 12 year olds spell. 

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Sara did try to talk to Ava about her drill sergeant routine, that's why they did the become 12 year olds spell.

That is true; I will admit that.  But overall it just felt like Sara was far too passive.  That’s just my own impression, of course, but it annoyed me.  

I will also admit to the unpopular opinion that I didn’t care for kid!Sara or kid!Ava.  I don’t know why.  Or most of the camp kids in general, to be quite honest.  Sorry.  I will be grumpy, party of one, over here in the corner.;)

[Mellowyellow]

Things I love:

- Ray *duh! My second fav character in the Arrowverse only falling behind Felicity*

- Constantine calling Ray "Dreamboat"

- Ray being qualified in dentistry!  I dunno that made me laugh because it's so random and BR has such nice teeth and smile

- Sara being SOOO enthused about camp. It was nice to see her so happy and joyful. 

- Nora trying to make a life for herself and not doing anything bad (that we know of)

***

Random thought - BR's hair is going crazy again

[bettername2come]

I loved Sara's joy and innocence over camp and the continuity of her being good with kids. I love the dichotomy between her being a scary assassin and a freckle -faced camp counselor. She halfway turned into Ray at camp. I like how they explored Ava's issues with her lack of childhood. I totally thought Sara was in on the prank against Ava and was using it to help her bond as like an initiation thing. I was very wrong.

My absolute favorite part was Sara calling for Gideon from Ava's apartment.

[scarynikki12]

6 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

My absolute favorite part was Sara calling for Gideon from Ava's apartment.

And she answered! 

[Starfish35]

8 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

My absolute favorite part was Sara calling for Gideon from Ava's apartment.

I loved this too. :)

[Lantern7]

Had to miss this because the local CW affiliate had to broadcast the Giants/49ers game. (American) football where the teams are a combined 3-14? Yes, please!! Sadly, I think Mick would still watch, because it's still (American) football.

I don't think this episode was as over-the-top as the others this season, but we still had Ava becoming a real-life girl and Ray trying to bond with Constantine. John is never going to be Nate,and that's a good thing. If Ray and Nate had gone buddy system, the entire camp would have been sent ablaze. And Mick would not have been involved. Probably for the best that he stayed on the ship to bond with Charlie. I doubt he'd start the kids with rubbing sticks.

In other news, looks like Charlie is officially part of the team. You know what that means? Ray gets to tweak the Chore Wheel!! Only puzzle is whether Charlie's Amaya disco suit had to be taken off, even though that's what she changed into last week. If that makes sense. Makes sense she'd bond with Mick (the guy that's also done time) and Zari (no longer the new girl). You think Mick & Charlie might be a thing? I mean, Ray & Charlie would be first option, especially when Nate finds out, but Mick could make things so much better. Or worse. Maybe both.

Sara is still awesome. I dug the braids. And she still kicks ass even as a 12-year-old. You can't ask for much else, right? I liked the girls playing her and Ava. Good job channeling the characters.

ETA: "Wait, what is Nora doing in . . . oh, Damien's Nora, not Barry and Iris's Nora. Duh!!"

Edited November 14, 2018 by Lantern7

[BaggythePanther]

23 hours ago, Maverick said:

Ray's hair was not working for me in this episode.  Get a haircut, back off the volumizer, something.

 I'm disappointed in Sara not picking up on Chad.  I was also disappointed in Constantine not trying to shag him.

 So Charlie's contribution to the team is going to be acting like the spotter from Black Lightning?

 Gideon has been almost non-existent this season an it's quite annoying.

I hated Ray’s hair this episode too. It distracted me all episode. 

A+ Black Lightning reference. I actually laughed out loud. Just hope Charlie is more of a Gambi than a Kara.

 I liked that it was Zari and (mostly) Mick that convinced Charlie to join the Legends. They both started out as very anti-team and now they’ve grown to the point where they’re encouraging a reluctant person to join the team.

And apropos of nothing, but I’m still not used to Charlie’s accent. I don’t see her as Amaya, but for some reason I have not adjusted to the accent.

[Mellowyellow]

22 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

I'm going to admit, I haven't watched last season in full. I've seen big chunks, but none of it had to do with Nora, so I haven't seen her be super evil or whatever. I'm just going on tonight's peek at her, and her innocent/confused response to the guy calling her a lusty wench/witch is the side of her I think that Ray sees in her. It was also very reminiscent of Ray to me. I find it hard picturing Ray having darkness rub off on him, he's experienced some terrible things and he's still the way he is. However, I do think he's going to be taught some things, but I'm thinking it's going to be Constantine that can't be saved the way Ray would want, not Nora. 

Nora had a super rough childhood consisting of her mother dying, evil crazy father who handed her over to a demon and manipulated her (he did love her but he's pretty nuts) and being locked up in some kind of an institution. She did a lot of stuff for her father and also because she was possessed, I never got the impression she wanted to do evil to derive joy or because she was pure evil herself.

She's basically willing to walk on the dark side more than Ray (but lets face it most people are darker than Ray) and it will be interesting to see what they do with her character but I never found her to be that evil last season as I cut her a lot of slack for actually being possessed! 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Mellowyellow

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/12/2018 at 10:53 PM, Alice Mudgarden said:

Ray's dorky lanyard

 

11 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Of course he made his own special lanyard! 

That wasn't the kind of lanyard you make, which bothered me, having woven many lanyards at camp.

[AngelKitty]

3 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

That wasn't the kind of lanyard you make,

How so? It looks like macrame.

[benteen]

Another really fun episode.  The pairings continue to excel on this show from Ray and Constantine to Mick and Charlie.  Ray and Chad were pretty funny too.

It's nice to see Sara actually so positive about something from her past.  Young Ava looked like Sophie Turner to me.

Quote

 Just read the AV Club’s review of the episode. It turns out that the AV Club “Swamp Thaaaang” D+ review Ava read in the episode was actually a quote from the AV Club’s D+ review of LoT’s 1x12 episode “Last Refuge”. Someone in the writers room has been holding on to that grudge for a while.

I caught the reference but didn't realize it was from an old review.  Clever.  I used to be a fan of that website.  The reviews are still worth reading but I gave up on the website when they decided to spend about 100% of their website complaining nonstop about the 2016 election.

Edited November 14, 2018 by benteen

[darkestboy]

Fun episode, loved the Swamp Thing shout out in this episode as well. Too bad we're unlikely to see him appear on a CW DC show though. 

Younger Sara and Ava, good casting there. Liked how the show tackled Ava's lack of childhood and clone issues as well.

Too bad cute Chad ended up being the baddie but eh, what can you do?

Loved Ray and Constantine's scenes in this one. Good way of setting up Nora's return as well.

I liked the scenes with Mick, Zari and Charlie in this too. Good to see Charlie becoming a member of the team, 8/10

[Sakura12]

I never went to a sleep away camp but I remember the 90's camp shows Salute Youe Shorts and Hey Dude. Also the movie the title is based off. 

[Maelstrom]

14 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

And apropos of nothing, but I’m still not used to Charlie’s accent. I don’t see her as Amaya, but for some reason I have not adjusted to the accent.

I don't mind the accent - and it does help differentiate her from Amaya - but the sound mix is always so terrible that I have a hard time understanding her sometimes. Then again I have that problem with a lot of other shows as well (*coughElementarycough*), so it's probably my tv.

 

On 11/13/2018 at 1:42 AM, BaggythePanther said:

 Just read the AV Club’s review of the episode. It turns out that the AV Club “Swamp Thaaaang” D+ review Ava read in the episode was actually a quote from the AV Club’s D+ review of LoT’s 1x12 episode “Last Refuge”. Someone in the writers room has been holding on to that grudge for a while.

Aww, I kinda like that ep. Backstory on Rip and Mick, perfectly cast young actors, and a top notch British guest star? What's not to love! Also, the fx budget for that final showdown with the assassin lady looks to be bigger than the fx budget for the whole of season three.

Quote

I never went to a sleep away camp but I remember the 90's camp shows Salute Youe Shorts and Hey Dude. Also the movie the title is based off. 

IIRC Hey Dude was actually about a dude ranch in Arizona, not a camp. I seem to recall watching it obsessively as a kid, lol.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Maelstrom

[Sakura12]

I was going with shows about counselors and cabins. Lol

Edited November 14, 2018 by Sakura12

[Delphi]

I think Sara was being passive because she already knew it wouldn't work,  she after all was a kid and not a well behaved one,  I thought she was like sure Ava,  be a drill sergeant, that will totally work. Not.

Is it weird that I wanted Ray to hook up with Chad before Chad was revealed as a demon? 

[johntfs]

On 11/13/2018 at 9:47 PM, Lantern7 said:

You think Mick & Charlie might be a thing? I mean, Ray & Charlie would be first option, especially when Nate finds out, but Mick could make things so much better. Or worse. Maybe both.

They could go romantic with Mick and Charlie, but honestly, their relationship strikes me as more mentor/student.  I chuckled a little when Mick called her "Kid" since even though Dominic Purcell is 48 compared to Maisie Richardson-Sellers' 26, Charlie is around 500 years older than Mick at the least.  Still, Mick could well have more (or at least more varied) life experience than Charlie does. 

As for Ray, I think Charlie thinks that Ray(ge) is a sweet, nice person who is really just not her type.  Meanwhile, it's pretty clear that Ray has unresolved feelings for Nora.  I don't see him entering into a new romantic relationship until those feelings are resolved (one way or another).

The weirdest, coolest thing about this show is that I could see just about any character on it in any relationship with any other character.  Would it be unlikely that Ava would break up with Sara and get with Mick?  Sure.   Could these writers pull it off?  Probably so (not that I think something like this will happen).

[Miss Dee]

I agree, @johntfs. I have faith in these writers to make any pairing work, romantic or otherwise, because their understanding of who they are as characters is so deep.

Which, in Mick and Charlie ("Chick" as I saw on Twitter)'s case, will have to get over my squickiness about the fact that he was in love (according to Len in Doomworld) with Amaya, and now Charlie's wearing her face. So is Mick attracted to the real Charlie, or the Amaya he couldn't have? I would prefer the writers address this for me to be fully on board.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Miss Dee said:

Which, in Mick and Charlie ("Chick" as I saw on Twitter)'s case, will have to get over my squickiness about the fact that he was in love (according to Len in Doomworld) with Amaya, and now Charlie's wearing her face. So is Mick attracted to the real Charlie, or the Amaya he couldn't have? I would prefer the writers address this for me to be fully on board.

Of all the folks on the Waverider, I think Mick is, in many ways, the most grounded, clear-thinking (alcohol aside) common sense-using one of them.  He had no difficulty discerning between "Leo" and "Snart."  Despite having a deep respect and affection for Sara, in the previous season finale he reassured her that "...if you turn into a witch-bitch, I'll kill you."  When Mick caught Charlie trying to flee, he aimed his heat-gun at her and it was clear to me that he'd fire at her if she didn't surrender.  Finally, I think one of the reasons that Mick was able to bond with Charlie in the way that he did was that he thought of her and treated her as her own person and not some version of Amaya, something that Sara and Zari are still struggling with to some extent.

Edited November 15, 2018 by johntfs

[Maelstrom]

Good analysis, johntfs. Despite his, uh, hot-headed nature, Mick is actually a very pragmatic guy. I always like it when they (both the writers and his teammates) give him opportunities to let that side of him show.

[BaggythePanther]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

Of all the folks on the Waverider, I think Mick is, in many ways, the most grounded, clear-thinking (alcohol aside) common sense-using one of them.  He had no difficulty discerning between "Leo" and "Snart."  Despite having a deep respect and affection for Sara, in the previous season finale he reassured her that "...if you turn into a witch-bitch, I'll kill you."  When Mick caught Charlie trying to flee, he aimed his heat-gun at her and it was clear to me that he'd fire at her if she didn't surrender.  Finally, I think one of the reasons that Mick was able to bond with Charlie in the way that he did was that he thought of her and treated her as her own person and not some version of Amaya, something that Sara and Zari are still struggling with to some extent.

I understand Zari’s troubles, she’s never dealt with a doppelgänger before. But Sara has dealt with Leo and to a lesser extent Black Siren on Arrow. And those are doppelgängers of people she was close to who died violently. Her girlfriend is a clone. And Charlie isn’t even an Earth-2 version of Amaya, she’s a completely different being wearing Amaya’s face. I feel like after the initial shock, Sara shouldn’t have too much trouble dealing with her as Charlie and separating her from Amaya.

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Sara shouldn’t have too much trouble dealing with her as Charlie and separating her from Amaya.

Sure, but Sara wasn't there yet, not completely.  The fact that Charlie had Amaya's form was one reason the Legends kept her.  Ava made the (reasonable) assumption that the Legends would use her for information and Sara went along with that because she clearly didn't have a good real answer to Ava's question.  I think Sara will quickly get there and so will the rest of the team.  My point was that Mick had already gotten to the point of seeing Charlie as completely separate from Amaya.