S03.E05: Toby

[debraran]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That would also explain the scene with her getting fired.  He said something about her being less valuable l ately. And the HR woman, assuming that's what she was, was giving him signals to be quiet about it.  they wouldn't want her to know they were letting her go because they thought she was getting dementia as then she could sue them.

I thought it specifically didn't give a time.  Because obviously the scenes with Toby and Kate, and Kevin and Zoe wasn't taking place at the same time as the Randall/Tess stuff that happened right after those scenes.  

I can see brain tumor or some other cognitive issue but dementia before 50 ? I feel she's too young. The coming soon scene had her saying she hadn't been fine for a while, she wasn't just sad that day, she was hiding it like a people would. I think that's why they let her go instead of another, why not discuss it with her, IDK.  I think she said she wasn't the "she" but it doesn't mean there wont be a health issue.

[love2lovebadtv]

4 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Rebecca said in a past episode that they re-connected on Facebook, or maybe it was shown. Can't remember which but it was definitely later and it was definitely Facebook. I remembered it because I thought it strange because hasn't FB only been around for 10 years or so? 

I think she joined Facebook when her first grandchild was born and Miguel had moved away by then. I think that kind of thing happens all the time. People join FB because they want to keep tabs on their kids or some family reunion group or whatever is on there. And they end up connecting in unexpected ways. 

[GodsBeloved]

18 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Kevin should have recognized what was going on with the cashier. But I'm not surprised he didn't, considering a) how oblivious he is in general, and b) how little he cared about the racism his brother faced growing up.

That said, I think it's understandable that a white man wouldn't know the significance of a pillowcase his new girlfriend uses, if she's never explained why she uses it.

I give Kevin a pass on the cashier because his attention was diverted. He wasn’t looking at the cashier when the exchange happened with Zoe. Had he been looking at her he may have picked up on from the body language. 

I agree about the silk pillowcase. Someone mentioned Kevin should have known since Beth is his SIL but I find it totally plausible that there has never been a situation where Beth or Randall share that piece of info. 

[Emily Thrace]

9 hours ago, llewis823 said:

Did they really call Kevin "Alabaster"? If so, not very nice. Maybe even a bit racist. It does go both ways you know.

Alabaster is just a shade of white. Its no different than referring to Randall as ebony, there is nothing really offensive about it. Also because white people have much more power in society it doesn't really "go both ways". White peoples words can carry a weight of history and suffering that non-whites can't. That why white people need to be careful with their words. You are attempting to apply an equal standard where none exists there is a really good article about it here.

I think Kevin was drinking at prom was definitely connected to racist dad. Kevin drinks when he feels inadequate. He knows Jack would have stood up to the guy and that makes him feel like he doesn't measure up. 

[debraran]

3 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

 

I think Kevin was drinking at prom was definitely connected to racist dad. Kevin drinks when he feels inadequate. He knows Jack would have stood up to the guy and that makes him feel like he doesn't measure up. 

I hope we see the part not shown later, why he didn't go, did his date just get too upset, how did he get home?  Does Kevin say anything, he looked awfully shocked.  He would have been disrespectful to take on the dad, but he could have stuck up for his brother and spoke to his daughter or Mom. The father has a right to be an ass but he didn't have to deal with it alone. It was a bit weird, like the Dad just couldn't do it for a young man who just lost his father, who's daughter was dating or seeing him beforehand. Kind of weird.

[Jillybean]

1 hour ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

A little confused here.  Did we just see, in this episode, the scene shown to us at the end of the S2 finale, in March, when on screen it said "one year later" - the scene where Kate tells bedridden Toby that she called his doctor about his meds?  Is it a year later now?  I have no problem if now it's one year later (the magic of television etc.), and I get that the show jumps all over the past and into the future, but I always thought the present played out in real time (as much as possible).  For example, Thanksgiving and Christmas episodes are timely. 

I have the same question. Are we to believe Toby and Kate have been married for a year in these episodes? Yet each September, they have a birthday. Very confusing. 

[ams1001]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

Interestingly, he also played a Vietnam vet on NCIS last night. And, IIRC, Mac had also been in Vietnam.

He plays a recurring character on Mom, too (blind tenant that Bonnie helps out once in a while). I think (not sure) that character is also a Vietnam vet.

 

6 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Most pharmacies would give him a 3 day supply while they contact the doctor for more refills.  Most doctors offices will authorize at least one month's worth until the patient can be seen.     

I've had that happen before (with the same class of drug Toby was on; in NJ, for the record). I waited until the last minute to refill (my own fault), only to learn I was out of refills. The pharmacy contacted the doctor's office, but it was too late in the day (on a Friday), so they gave me a few pills to get me through the weekend. The doctor called in the new prescription when they got the message and I picked it up Monday. I didn't have to do anything except make an extra trip to the store. Assuming he normally went to that pharmacy, they would have a record and, if he had no refills left, could probably get a new prescription electronically, these days (especially since it was apparently a weekday morning, it shouldn't have taken long; last time I needed antibiotics my doctor sent it to my pharmacy from the computer right in the exam room).

Then again, with these people, I wouldn't necessarily assume he didn't just go to the first pharmacy he saw to unload on whoever happened to be at the counter. 'Cuz that seems to be how Pearsons and Pearson-adjacent folks roll.

 

6 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Benzos would not be a first line therapy for depression.  He is probably on an SSRI.  

They showed the bottle in the scene before he dumps the pills; it was Sertraline, aka Zoloft (an SSRI).

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

He plays a recurring character on Mom, too (blind tenant that Bonnie helps out once in a while). I think (not sure) that character is also a Vietnam vet.

 

I've had that happen before (with the same class of drug Toby was on; in NJ, for the record). I waited until the last minute to refill (my own fault), only to learn I was out of refills. The pharmacy contacted the doctor's office, but it was too late in the day (on a Friday), so they gave me a few pills to get me through the weekend. The doctor called in the new prescription when they got the message and I picked it up Monday. I didn't have to do anything except make an extra trip to the store. Assuming he normally went to that pharmacy, they would have a record and, if he had no refills left, could probably get a new prescription electronically, these days (especially since it was apparently a weekday morning, it shouldn't have taken long; last time I needed antibiotics my doctor sent it to my pharmacy from the computer right in the exam room).

Then again, with these people, I wouldn't necessarily assume he didn't just go to the first pharmacy he saw to unload on whoever happened to be at the counter. 'Cuz that seems to be how Pearsons and Pearson-adjacent folks roll.

 

They showed the bottle in the scene before he dumps the pills; it was Sertraline, aka Zoloft (an SSRI).

Don't those types of anti-depressants take 2 or 4 or 6 weeks to start affecting a person positively?  That might not be true anymore, but it was once upon a time.  If so, it wouldn't matter much if Toby had to wait another day or so to connect with a doctor.  But he definitely needs to connect with a medical professional.  He's in rough shape, poor guy. 

[Arcadiasw]

2 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Yeah, she really seemed to be struggling for words. It looked like cognitive fog. I too really don't buy that the Beth we've seen for 2 seasons - cool, snarky, with-it Beth - would just start blubbering in the middle of a job interview because she was overcome with mourning her old job.

Her job could've been the final straw. There has been a lot of changes in her life in the past two years: William, going from two to three kids (after she and her husband said they were done), her husband quitting his high paying job, buying a dilapidated apartment building, husband entering in politics in a city they don't live in, etc. Beth appears to have it together in the first two seasons but was that always true? In this last show Beth put on a smile and act cool with her interview when Randall asked, but we saw what actually happened at her interview. Beth keeps a lot in. Who knows what has gone on at her job or her family (siblings, parents) but we never saw since the show focuses more on Randall. We've yet to see her story. 

Can Kate be happy for more than five minutes? Two years ago, she was single, alone and depressed on her 36th birthday. She's 38 now, married and has a child on the way. Not everyone has that turn around in their personal life. There are people her age still single and looking for that one to settle down have kids with. Yes, she's gonna have drama. It's TV but once in a while it's okay to appreciate what you do have. 

[ams1001]

24 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Don't those types of anti-depressants take 2 or 4 or 6 weeks to start affecting a person positively?  That might not be true anymore, but it was once upon a time.  If so, it wouldn't matter much if Toby had to wait another day or so to connect with a doctor.  But he definitely needs to connect with a medical professional.  He's in rough shape, poor guy. 

It depends on the drug, and the person, but yes, it's generally at least a couple weeks (I was on Effexor, which is an SNRI, similar to SSRIs) and it took only a couple weeks for me to start feeling an improvement; I took Paxil a few years earlier and didn't feel a difference after about three months (at which point I gave up on it), so it really varies. According to NAMI's page on sertraline, physical symptoms like sleep/energy levels/appetite may show improvement in 1-2 weeks but improvements in depressed mood and lack of interest in activities can take up to 6-8 weeks. (On the other hand, when I went off Effexor after 6 years (with the help of my doctor, and wow, that was 10 years ago, now!), the withdrawal symptoms started within 2 days, and there was no hiding the dizziness (I took a week off of work and stocked up on easy-fix foods so I wouldn't have to leave home), so Toby not seeming to show any symptoms except his short temper before the movie premier was a little unrealistic to me. (Fun fact I learned when I was researching withdrawal so I'd know what to expect...the faster-acting the drug, the worse the withdrawal effects tend to be. Thankfully I didn't get any of the scarier-sounding symptoms.)

I have no idea if taking a several-week break and starting again would change the way a person would respond to it, though.

[Kira53]

18 hours ago, mommalib said:

My heart continues to break for Randall. As a teen being rejected by white people and being rejected by black people as an adult. And all he has is the best intentions.  And why the hell did Kevin go to that prom instead of going with his brother?

When he was younger Kevin used to call Randall “Webster” when they went to the same school.  He didn’t want to be associated with Randall at all.  Later, he hated sharing a room with him.  Kevin was at best ambivalent about Randall during teenage years.

[marceline]

It's interesting for me to read the comments wondering about Beth having a cognitive issue. I really not seeing where that's coming from. I promise I'm not trying to go "boards on boards" (remember that?) I just feel like I'm missing something that's really obvious to others. The show has given us enough examples of characters who become cognitively impaired some way either through age, addiction, or mental illness but I'm not seeing that with Beth. IMO, Beth's issue is that she's feeling unmoored and adrift and that she thinks her job is to be the bass, as William said. Randall has a history of mental breakdown. I believe that's first and foremost in her mind. Now add Tess, Annie, and Deja and one has to wonder who sees Beth's pain now that William is gone.

I don't see early onset dementia/Alzheimers, I see a woman slowly drowning under the weight of her responsibilities to the people she loves. 

[ams1001]

3 minutes ago, marceline said:

It's interesting for me to read the comments wondering about Beth having a cognitive issue. I really not seeing where that's coming from. I promise I'm not trying to go "boards on boards" (remember that?) I just feel like I'm missing something that's really obvious to others. The show has given us enough examples of characters who become cognitively impaired some way either through age, addiction, or mental illness but I'm not seeing that with Beth. IMO, Beth's issue is that she's feeling unmoored and adrift and that she thinks her job is to be the bass, as William said. Randall has a history of mental breakdown. I believe that's first and foremost in her mind. Now add Tess, Annie, and Deja and one has to wonder who sees Beth's pain now that William is gone.

I don't see early onset dementia/Alzheimers, I see a woman slowly drowning under the weight of her responsibilities to the people she loves. 

I didn't see that, either. I just thought the stress of losing her job on top of everything else (Randall's breakdown and quitting his job, Deja, buying the building, Randall saving the world Philadelphia) was getting to her, and the comment about how long she'd been at that job was just the thing that set her off. Sometimes it's just a seemingly small comment that breaks the dam.

[topanga]

2 hours ago, voiceover said:

In bars, on a 5-hour flight, etc etc.

That’s why I don’t go to bars, and I sleep on the plane. I don’t mind friendly greetings when I first sit down someplace, but if we’re strangers and don’t have an instant connection, then I don’t want to hear your life story. Sorry.

Kate and other people on this show don’t care if the other person is receptive to their stories. They barely notice if the other person is even listening. Instead, they stare off into the middle distance and go into their lomg monologues, practically committing verbal assault. But I’ve gotten used to it.

22 minutes ago, Kira53 said:

When he was younger Kevin used to call Randall “Webster” when they went to the same school.  He didn’t want to be associated with Randall at all.  Later, he hated sharing a room with him.  Kevin was at best ambivalent about Randall during teenage years.

But I agree with others that the way Allison’s dad treated Randall did affect Kevin, and he didn’t seem happy on the way to prom  

Edited October 25, 2018 by topanga

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, topanga said:

That’s why I don’t go to bars, and I sleep on the plane. I don’t mind friendly greetings when I first sit down someplace, but if we’re strangers and don’t have an instant connection, then I don’t want to hear your life story. Sorry.

I agree.  Yes, say hello when you sit down.   Say excuse me if you have to get up and past someone.  Politely make any requests regarding the window shade.  You can ask once if the person knows what time it is, but not more than once every couple of hours.  And, if you didn't hear an announcement you can ask if the other person understood.  But, other than, for the most part, silence is golden.

[hookedontv]

I haven’t read all the comments yet so maybe someone mentioned this already but...

It was comedy gold when Beth was telling Randall he couldn’t cry on the campaign:

B: “You talk about the little round boy on the corner who tried to sell lemonade in the winter, you cry.”

R: “The lemonade froze Beth.”

B: “But he was stupid baby!”

[Trillium]

As someone who normally has her emotions in-check and doesn’t break often, it’s unexpected emotions that get me. If I know there’s a situation that’s going to be emotional, I can suck it in a be calm and steady. Something I’m not expecting, I get like Beth. 

I think what broke her was talking about her old job and how much her old boss loved Beth. She’s probably thinking “If he loved me so much, why did he let me go? I was there for 12 mother fucking years and started it up with him and he just cuts me loose?  What the hell?” Saying that out loud was probably tough. She’s put on a brave face since Randall showed up with William two years ago.

 

I don’t think there’s a dang thing wrong cognitively with Beth. She’s jus someone who’s had to keep the insanity that is The Pearsons in-line for a long time. Even the strongest people have their breaking points, and it can stew under the surface for a long time before it boils over  

Edited October 25, 2018 by Trillium

[topanga]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I agree.  Yes, say hello when you sit down.   Say excuse me if you have to get up and past someone.  Politely make any requests regarding the window shade.  You can ask once if the person knows what time it is, but not more than once every couple of hours.  And, if you didn't hear an announcement you can ask if the other person understood.  But, other than, for the most part, silence is golden.

I have found my people!

[Maximona]

The pillowcase story reminded me of how back when I was a young RN first starting out on the hospital wards in the early 80s, I didn't have a clue about black hair or black skin.  I went to nursing school back in the days when nurses were still responsible for doing all personal care—bed baths, etc.  So I had black patients whom I didn't know how to care for.

It fell to a kind African American nurse to say, Girl, there are differences, and those differences impact personal care.  And to educate me.

They never taught us those things in nursing school.  I suppose because somehow the cultural climate of the times equated difference with inequality.  Or something.

I dimly remember a conversation on this show—maybe in the first season—where the parents of the black friend that Randall makes educates Rebecca about lotion for ashy skin.

My point being that if you don't know, you don't know—and the proper response is to educate, not to role your eyes and feel morally superior.

Also, as a data point—I have had exactly the same thing happen with clerks in a store when I (white woman) have gone into black businesses with my husband (black man.)  I mean clerks assuming we were not together, and then after discovering we're a couple, behaving rather snootily to me.  It's annoying, but you know:  You gotta pick your battles, and if that's the battle you pick, you got it easy.

I don't like Zoe.  But then, I suppose Kevin can only truly be attracted to women who give him shit.

The actor who played young Randall was the standout in the cast this show:  The mostly wordless exchange between young Randall and the father of his prom date was truly heartbreaking.

[Drumpf1737]

11 hours ago, Ravello said:

I want the focus to be on Jack, Rebecca, the big three and Miguel.  A little Toby and Beth is okay but I don’t want entire episodes about their backstory.  

Last season everyone complained about just the opposite. Just last week some complained about "sainted" Jack. 

 

11 hours ago, llewis823 said:

Did they really call Kevin "Alabaster"? If so, not very nice. Maybe even a bit racist. It does go both ways you know.

No, it doesn't and it's hilarious to hear the assertion with Nazis in the street but I digress.

"Alabaster" like "swirl" is a slang term used in interracial dating. "Alabaster" sounds so much nicer/fancier than "white" which is how it was popularized, but maybe not to white people.  If so, this is a teachable moment.  

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Drumpf1737

[Kira53]

I just realized that Kevin and Randall wouldn’t be going to the same prom.  Kevin was at public school and Randall was at an expensive private school.  There wouldn’t be a joint prom for these kids.  Kate would have had the same prom night as Kevin.  

Today’s Moms go to the other parents house to take their own pictures.  How would not insist today?  But I’m willing to forgive mistakes for the narrative.  I’m not expecting Shakespeare here, and he had some improbable situations for the sake of narrative too.

[ams1001]

1 minute ago, Kira53 said:

I just realized that Kevin and Randall wouldn’t be going to the same prom.  Kevin was at public school and Randall was at an expensive private school.  There wouldn’t be a joint prom for these kids.  Kate would have had the same prom night as Kevin.  

Did his girlfriend go to his school or Kevin and Kate's school? (And Kate just didn't want to go.)

[Driad]

I don't know much about IVF or depression, but why couldn't Toby start taking his meds again as soon as he gave his sample?  The time from then to a confirmed pregnancy must have been weeks at least.

[Kdawg82]

I felt bad about the prom scene. I had a similar thing happen as a high schooler. I had a friend with a BF in another school. Junior prom came around for other school and my friend called me asking could I be her BFs friend's date as he didn't have one. I was excited just to be asked so was all "Yay! Sure I'll go!" Then I asked my mom if i could go. As though she has a racist 6th sense she asked "the guy isn't black is he?" I said "umm gee I don't know. I didnt ask" (my friend was white BTW so no reason for anyone to assume race at this point). Embarrased I had to call and actually ASK this girl If the date was black. OF COURSE he was. So, I wasn't allowed to go. It was awful.  Disclaimer: I don't even have a relationship w/ my "mother figure" in my adult life . Many things about her even sicker than that attitude so I wont even go there . 

ETA: Funny how Kevin would have been the ideal to show up as the "white date" but ended up trashed at the prom and the Puerto Rican family friend had to cover his butt. Ironic?

Edited October 25, 2018 by Kdawg82
Adding

[Kirkydee]

34 minutes ago, Kira53 said:

I just realized that Kevin and Randall wouldn’t be going to the same prom.  Kevin was at public school and Randall was at an expensive private school.  There wouldn’t be a joint prom for these kids.  Kate would have had the same prom night as Kevin.  

Today’s Moms go to the other parents house to take their own pictures.  How would not insist today?  But I’m willing to forgive mistakes for the narrative.  I’m not expecting Shakespeare here, and he had some improbable situations for the sake of narrative too.

Wow!! I almost forgot the boys went to different schools. Unless Allison went to Kevin's school and Randall was the escort.  

[marceline]

34 minutes ago, Driad said:

I don't know much about IVF or depression, but why couldn't Toby start taking his meds again as soon as he gave his sample?  The time from then to a confirmed pregnancy must have been weeks at least.

He could have if he hadn't flushed his meds. Which is why YOU DON'T FLUSH YOUR FUCKING MEDS, TOBY!

[DebbieM4]

On 10/23/2018 at 10:02 PM, CleoCaesar said:

It’s impossible for me to properly articulate how little I care about Randall’s campaign for town councilman.

 

I agree.  I like Randall, but I don't like him being so intent on swooping in and saving these people who - rightfully so - see him as an intruder who doesn't understand their issues or their lives at all.  If he wants to be helpful, surely there are other ways that don't put him so front and center.

23 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Loved Miguel being a genuinely good guy and looking out for the family because Jack wanted him to. And also glad he didn't pop out from under the refrigerator like I expected when Kate started singing at the piano. Helping 3/4s of the Pearsons is enough. I liked seeing that first hint of a Miguel/Rebecca relationship. Not romantic yet, but the earliest scene in the timeline where you can see how it could go there.

I've never had a problem with Miguel, and my thought was that it would be perfectly natural for him to step in and help out.   In my experience, that's what friends do for each other.   I thought it was kind of overkill that we had to see Jack actually ask him to do it.  I would assume it would go without saying.

23 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

He explained that it's because his name is now on William's lease for his apartment. Which...still a bullshit excuse and I'm glad none of the neighbours in that district were having it. 

Yes.  And it was very clumsily inserted into the script in a conversation he had with Beth.  He might as well have prefaced it by saying, "And for those of you in our viewing audience who have been wondering how I can do this,,............"  It didn't flow freely or ring true at all.

23 hours ago, tribeca said:

My French White grandma always slept on a silk pillow case.  She brought it everywhere.  She said it prevented wrinkles and she didn’t have any lines on her face even in her seventies.  

   I really felt bad for Toby.  Kid Toby looked so much like adult Toby.  His humor is his defense.  Hopefully Kate will be there for him.  

I'm Caucasian, and I remember hearing a long time ago that sleeping on a silk pillowcase helps to preserve however hair is styled.  So I immediately assumed that's what Zoe meant when she mentioned her pillowcase.  I never thought of it as a black or white thing -   I've always thought of it as a girl thing.   

(My grandmother used to talk about using silk pillowcases to prevent wrinkles too.  And she had very few.)

Edited October 25, 2018 by DebbieM4

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I mean I understand that and as I said, I go though the same thing since I’m handicapped people just assume that they know someone else who’s single and handicapped and we would totally be great together! I get that a lot, that since I have  hard time finding someone maybe I should only date within that box.

I still remember during S1, several people on the forum questioned why Kate wasn’t dating overweight men, as if she should only date within that box. I guess some people think that couples should look like a matched set!

1 hour ago, topanga said:

That’s why I don’t go to bars, and I sleep on the plane. I don’t mind friendly greetings when I first sit down someplace, but if we’re strangers and don’t have an instant connection, then I don’t want to hear your life story. Sorry.

Kate and other people on this show don’t care if the other person is receptive to their stories. They barely notice if the other person is even listening. Instead, they stare off into the middle distance and go into their lomg monologues, practically committing verbal assault. But I’ve gotten used to it.  

I’m with you. I don’t want to sound unfriendly but I don’t fly to make new BFFs or to get a free faux therapy session. I’m on this plane because it’s faster than driving or rowing a boat to get wherever I’m going. On a few occasions, I’ve had some interesting conversations with strangers but for the most part I’m fine reading, taking a nap, or just listening to music.

The Pearsons aren’t into having an actual conversation where BOTH people talk and listen. They just want the opportunity to have a five minute monologue where they talk about themselves and the other person could be replaced with a Teddy Ruxpin that says things like “You’re right!” when said Pearson pauses to take in more air. That’s what really annoys me about their soliloquies with strangers. The other person is inconsequential (unless there’s something that the Pearson in question can get from them, like a lower price on a car).

Related anecdote: when ipods first came out, a guy I knew complained that it made it so much harder for him to approach women who were out running. I was like uhh, you mean it’s more difficult for you to interrupt a stranger while she’s exercising so you can hit on her? That’s probably one of the reasons a lot of women wear headphones! I always bring headphones when I fly just in case I need a way to signal that I’m not here to have a seven hour conversation. 

[DoItToIt]

23 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Kate's voice is pretty average. No way would someone follow her in real life to tell her she should audition for The Voice.

This made me laugh a lot more than it probably should.

[tribeca]

Kate can go on the voice.  None of the coaches turn their chairs.  Kate can tell her sad long story which leaves no room for the other contestants to audition.  

[DebbieM4]

22 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Does anyone know how I can find a clip of the scene with the cashier? I didn't think Kevin was even looking so I was surprised she was upset that he didn't know about it since it wasn't what she said but her disapproval and disdain,which he wouldn't have seen if he wasn't looking. But maybe I don't remember correctly.

I remember it the way you do.  I thought the cashier initially didn't realize that Kevin and Zoe were together.  And when Zoe told her that they were, the cashier looked at Zoe disapprovingly.  That's pretty much all I saw/heard, unless I missed something.  In any case, I can't fault Kevin for not knowing.  He was standing right there, but nothing was said, and it would have been easy for him to miss the way the cashier looked at her.

21 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

 

 

Good point about Kevin. Was that to show us how he can detach from the racism and just go to the prom? Or to show us Kevin drink too much and Miguel swooping in. Or maybe he didn't want to disappoint Sophie. 

I'm sure he didn't want to disappoint Sophie.  And I doubt very much that Randall would have allowed him to miss the prom.  He would have insisted that Kevin and Sophie go, I'm sure of it.  As for getting drunk, I thought maybe it was a reaction to what he had witnessed in the home of Randall's date.  I'm sure it wasn't the first time he saw something like that, and maybe that was his response to being upset.  Or maybe he just drank a lot because it was prom night.

I'm in agreement with those here who have said they would have liked to see exactly what happened with Randall.  It seemed as though the dad couldn't handle it, and so he walked away.  Why did that mean the end of prom for Randall?  Her mother was certainly okay with it, and her father didn't seem to be making a fuss at all.   I understand they're big on showing us little snippets of things, but we really did need to see a little more of that.  

[tennisgurl]

If she was on The Voice, and no one bothered turning their chair for her, not not enough of them, Kate would launch into a super sad tale of her fertility and weight issues and her dad dying, fully expecting everyone to sob over her horrible life, even after the last people got done talking about escaping their war torn home land with nothing but the clothes on their back and a song in their heart, finding music after losing all five of their kids in a freak boat crash, and a guy who is paralyzed from the neck down and blind. And would be furious that people paid more attention to them than her. 

[QQQQ]

21 hours ago, sheetmoss said:

Want to give the makeup artist some props on the fine job of making 67yr old  Wendi Malick look incredibly good as portraying younger Toby's mom.... and not in a Baby Jane kind of way

   Then again, they had a nice canvas from the start

No kidding! I was wondering if her face was pulled back with tape or...? under the wig. And Dan Lauria looked about the same as his Wonder Years days. 

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

The basics of mascara, lipstick, hairspray they get, the details not so much.

Heh. Not my poor husband, because I don't wear any of those things... (I'm luckily in a profession where wearing make-up is unusual, which is good, because I hate the stuff and except for powdered make-up sometimes for my nose, I have maybe worn it less than a dozen times my entire life (I'm over 50) - and that includes Halloween.) My hubby would likely have little idea what mascara even was. He gets nail polish - sort of - because in our house it's used for mending insect specimens.

Quote

Show always gets me with the sad moments but they got me with the funny this time, I had to pause because I was laughing so hard at the frozen lemonade conversation I couldn't hear what they said next.

  That was awesome, but...

2 hours ago, hookedontv said:

I haven’t read all the comments yet so maybe someone mentioned this already but...

It was comedy gold when Beth was telling Randall he couldn’t cry on the campaign:

B: “You talk about the little round boy on the corner who tried to sell lemonade in the winter, you cry.”

R: “The lemonade froze Beth.”

B: “But he was stupid baby!”

Oh, is that what Randall said?!?

I misunderstood and thought he said "but he [the boy] almost froze, Beth." Which probably then makes me an awful person for then finding Beth's "But he was stupid, baby!" funny, but what can I say... I sometimes have a twisted sense of humor.

And no, no one specifically had quoted the conversation yet. I was about to after I finished reading the comments... and good thing I saw your comment, because I totally would have quoted it wrongly!

I still love Beth's comment, but I think in my head I'm also going to remember it my way, too. ; )

Edited October 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DoItToIt]

12 hours ago, Evagirl said:

One season he's a self-centered all-about-me jerk who treats women like loose change in his pocket.  The next season he's a full-blown drunk and druggie.  The next season he's clean and sober, kind and compassionate, I-Love-My-Daddy stuff.

Idk, this is actually what is holding my attention towards Kevin, his character is ever-evolving and changing, as we all are. 

[DebbieM4]

14 hours ago, Ravello said:

 

I feel the writers have completely blown up the Randall character and the political story ruined his magic for me.  

 

I feel the same way.  I used to love him - flaws and all - and now I see him very differently.  I wish they would abort this storyline because I want to love him unconditionally again.

14 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The whole Toby scene at the pharmacy did not make any sense to me.  I used to be a pharmacy technician (not in California), but Toby's antidepressants are not going to be a controlled substance.  He should have refills available.  He stated that he hasn't taken them in 5 weeks which means he is due for a refill.  He definitely did not dump out a full 90 day supply in the past episode.  Most pharmacists that I have worked with over the years would attempt to fill the prescription even if he was out of refills.  They are also able to call his doctor to request refills.  I hate manufactured drama like this.  What should have happened is that he goes back on his medications, but they are not working.  

 

I used to work in the mental health field, and I agree.  It was unrealistic.  And for something that was already being prescribed, they most likely would have given him a small emergency supply (3 days at least). 

12 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

 

Show always gets me with the sad moments but they got me with the funny this time, I had to pause because I was laughing so hard at the frozen lemonade conversation I couldn't hear what they said next.  

I'm trying to remember a conversation about frozen lemonade.  If you see this, and have a moment, can you please refresh my memory?  I'm curious now!

eta:  I found it above!  I had forgotten about that.  And it was funny!

Edited October 25, 2018 by DebbieM4

[Amethyst]

11 hours ago, marceline said:

I was very glad to see Randall's meeting go bust. The savior complex was a problem with Jack too but the show doesn't really seem willing to unpack that. Randall keeps being told how hurtful it is when he looks at people and sees what's broken. It doesn't make people feel good even when they know and love you. To have Randall come sweeping in with no real connections doesn't inspire confidence.

Well said.  It's hard to have a good perspective of Randall when it comes across like pity and condescension.  He really didn't learn anything from Deja.

 

6 hours ago, Kdawg82 said:

The show is lovely but pushes hard to -as mentioned- constantly remind us of race of the characters . I wish they could just be people for once .

It's difficult to "just be people" when others remind you that you're different.  Whether it's through overt racism or a microaggression.  Sure you can ignore things, but it still wears on you.  Those constant reminders in the show mirrors what happens in real life.  Look at Randall going to his prom.  He was just an excited teenager going to a dance with the girl that he likes.  But the reaction from Allison's father reminded Randall that he didn't belong there.  Suddenly, it is a racist issue, although Randall hadn't expected any of that to occur.  And I doubt Zoe wanted to deal with a racist cashier, but it happened.  This kind of racism happens more than you think.

I do think the show was more deft in the first season at showing the racism Randall experienced, along with his own feelings of doubt and insecurity.  But the issue itself is important and I'm glad the show discusses it.

[DebbieM4]

9 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Well as someone who is disabled, people automatically assume I should date someone else who’s disabled.

And people used to automatically assume I should date someone who is Jewish.   I constantly heard (both before and after my marriage) that they knew someone who was Jewish who would be perfect for me!  (Why?  I never knew.  Apparently because I'm Jewish and these men were Jewish, and that was all I needed to know.)

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree.  My husband used to like to say he understood women because he had eight sisters.  For years he would get me plants as gifts because his sisters had told him he couldn't go wrong there and all my hints and visuals of dead plants never shook his confidence that I would loved getting them.  I finally had to tell him I didn't care if he understood women, I wanted him to understand me.  Plants were just one of many things that needed explaining, for example,  since we're talking about hair, he was a little shocked to see me in my big jumbo rollers the first time.  I have hair that frizzes unless  it's stretched over those rollers and his sisters, with their  naturally straight hair had never had the same problems.  In fact one of them told me I should try her conditioner as though a good conditioner would make my hair straight.  Point being, I always wanted to be appreciated as an individual and would never want to be lumped into a group as big as a race. 

--------------------

Rebecca needs to sit her teenage kids down and have a serious talk about their rudeness to Miguel.  Young Kate's snide remark about the piano making the room smaller was just not how anyone should ever talk about a gift and Randall cutting off Miguel's Ricky Ricardo story was cruel.  I know they're young and missing their dad but sometimes there's just no excuse.

Overall, I loved this episode, I've always like Toby and I found his portrayal of someone fighting depression until he finally broke down, extremely  moving, even Emmy-worthy.

I agree with all of this.  Especially wanting to be appreciated as an individual.  I've run into similar situations as what you described.  Well said!

And yes, young Kate especially is often rude.  I understand grief and I understand moody pre-teens and all the rest.  But no way would I have been allowed to say or do some of what we've seen from Kate.  (Old Kate is often rude too, so clearly no lesson was learned there.)

I wouldn't say I loved this episode, but I did like it a whole lot more than last week's Vietnam.  And I think it was the best episode of this season so far. 

7 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Yeah, she really seemed to be struggling for words. It looked like cognitive fog. I too really don't buy that the Beth we've seen for 2 seasons - cool, snarky, with-it Beth - would just start blubbering in the middle of a job interview because she was overcome with mourning her old job.

I didn't see it as emotion at all.  She really seemed to be having cognitive difficulties.  For personal reasons, I hope this isn't going where I think it is.  It would be too painful for me to watch now, so I'm hoping with all my heart that I'm wrong.

[AwesomO4000]

48 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

I'm trying to remember a conversation about frozen lemonade.  If you see this, and have a moment, can you please refresh my memory?  I'm curious now!

I'm not sigmaforce, but I can help. Scroll up to a little less than halfway up this page and look for @hookedontv's post. A snippet of the dialogue is posted there.

However, I'd also try to find a clip of it, because Beth's delivery is perfect, in my opinion. I had to keep myself from laughing, because hubby'd had a long day and had gone to bed early, and I didn't want to wake him up.

[DebbieM4]

4 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

 

Can Kate be happy for more than five minutes? Two years ago, she was single, alone and depressed on her 36th birthday. She's 38 now, married and has a child on the way. Not everyone has that turn around in their personal life. There are people her age still single and looking for that one to settle down have kids with. Yes, she's gonna have drama. It's TV but once in a while it's okay to appreciate what you do have. 

She will never be happy, and what she has will never be enough.  She has many, many very good things in her life, including a husband who is crazy about her and devoted to fulfilling her every wish.  Kate from just a few years ago would have looked at someone with the exact same life she has now, and been insanely jealous and certain it was a life she would never have.  Angst rules her world, though, no matter what kind of life she has, and she's determined to continue on that way.  I wish they'd soften her up a bit because all the hard edges have made her very unlikable.  

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sigmaforce, but I can help. Scroll up to a little less than halfway up this page and look for @hookedontv's post. A snippet of the dialogue is posted there.

However, I'd also try to find a clip of it, because Beth's delivery is perfect, in my opinion. I had to keep myself from laughing, because hubby'd had a long day and had gone to bed early, and I didn't want to wake him up.

 I just found it, right before I saw your post.  I do remember it now, and it was pretty funny.  Thank you!  

I'd love to find a clip too.  Beth can deliver a line like no one else.

[kili]

Quote

That would also explain the scene with her getting fired.  He said something about her being less valuable l ately. And the HR woman, assuming that's what she was, was giving him signals to be quiet about it.  they wouldn't want her to know they were letting her go because they thought she was getting dementia as then she could sue them.

I think she may have been less valuable over the last year because she is dealing with so many personal issues. She's dealing with her FIL moving into the house. She's dealing with her husband having a major backdown and quitting his job. Then the FIL dies. Then they become foster parents. Then her kid runs away from home and ends up in the car with a drunk driver. Then she's adopting a child. I can see why she might not have been putting in 125% effort at work. Maybe the guys that they are keeping don't have to deal with a three-ring circus of angst whenever they go home and can devote 60+ hours a week to working. 

HR people always want you to stick to the script when you are laying somebody off. Every extra thing you say could result in litigation.

I think that Beth fell apart in the interview because she's overloaded with the burden of carrying her family mentally. She provides the stability that allows Randall to flit around whichever way the wind blows him. Today's he's a landlord. Tomorrow he's flying across the country two times in one day. Two days from now he's running for city counsellor. She needs somebody to lean on, but feels she  has nobody to lean on or the entire family will fall over. She can't deal with her grief properly because there is no time for her to fall apart. So, the emotion sneaks out when she least expects it.

"Her" could be Beth and it could be dementia. I just don't think it is causing her current problems. I hope that it isn't causing her current problems because the reasons that already exist in the show are reason enough that Randall needs to slow down and listen to her. She doesn't need to develop dementia in her 30s to give Randall a reason to notice her struggling. Whatever problems that plague "her" in the future may not manifest themselves this year. 

[hookedontv]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

Kate gave the dog away.

I somehow missed this.

But it’s more proof that Kate just sucks.

She’s selfish (always has to be about her) and no one has EVER hurt as much as she has, or has ever struggled as much, etc.

And when someone pays you a compliment, smile and say thank you. A depressing story to a nice stranger is completely uncalled for. 

[WhosThatGirl]

15 minutes ago, hookedontv said:

I somehow missed this.

But it’s more proof that Kate just sucks.

She’s selfish (always has to be about her) and no one has EVER hurt as much as she has, or has ever struggled as much, etc.

And when someone pays you a compliment, smile and say thank you. A depressing story to a nice stranger is completely uncalled for. 

I mean I said it before but I hated that moment. I hate it when people are fawned over. Kate has a really good voice but as I said in one of

my earlier posts “is it that great?” I.. don’t quite understand. It was okay. Also, maybe because Adele is pretty too for me as far as vocals but when anyone tries to sing her songs, to me, they can only sound mediocre. That’s just how I feel. They may be a great singer but  no one can sing an Adele song quite like Adele. They just can’t. 

[SevenStars]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

I agree.  Yes, say hello when you sit down.   Say excuse me if you have to get up and past someone.  Politely make any requests regarding the window shade.  You can ask once if the person knows what time it is, but not more than once every couple of hours.  And, if you didn't hear an announcement you can ask if the other person understood.  But, other than, for the most part, silence is golden.

This is how I feel too but for some reason people seem to think that I'm interested in their personal lives, therefore, they need to tell me all about it, and about people I might never meet or have any desire to know. This is why I usually like to wear a headphone when I'm anywhere someone might sit next to me in hope I will get nothing more than a smile of greeting. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by SevenStars

[SevenStars]

Just because one is right doesn't always mean the other one is wrong. To me, this was the case with Zoe and Kevin. Zoe was right to wonder/think about whether her relationship with Kevin was worth her having to explain things that he might not notice but which hurt her. It's a personal decison. For some people, it's worth it. For others, it's just not worth it when you have to add the dealing with it, on top of explaining it to your partner. It is something that will impact the relationship because it will impact Zoe emotionally on a level that her partner will never truly understand or know. Whichever decision she made would have been the right one, cause she has to take into account how she can and what she is willing to handle to have a relationship with Kevin. 

As for Kevin, he wasn't wrong for not seeing the cashier's action, or not knowing about the pillowcase. And his reaction to the pillowcase and Zoe telling him about the cashier prove that he is willing to learn and do whatever he can to show he cares, even when he doesn't understand. That is most you can ask and expect from someone who never and will never have to experience the little things people do every day to remind you of your "otherness". Things that are just the norm to them but a is reminder to you. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by SevenStars

[SevenStars]

17 hours ago, roughing it said:

Kevin is color blind when it comes to race - he doesn't see Randall as black, he sees him as his brother.  It's the show that keeps bonking us on the head with HEY, RANDALL IS BLACK every single week.  Also with Zoe, she's his girlfriend, not his "black" girlfriend.  Again, show, anvil.

No one is color blind, not even children. The only difference between children and adults in that area is that children don't let the color of a person impact their reaction/action to that person. Children see the color and don't see anything wrong or different about it until society teach them that it should have an impact in how they react and view that person. So they grew up either unlearning what society taught them or unable to acknowledge a person is black or brown, without it impacting their reactions to that person subconsciously or consciously. 

Zoe is Kevin's black girlfriend because she is black, not becauss he is racist but because that is how God created her. Because Kevin is not racist, he won't let that fact impact his actions/reactions to Zoe, same thing with Randall. He will acknowledge that she is black, not only because that isn't a negative thing or a thing he needs to ignore but also because they exist in a society in which Zoe being black will impact Zoe. Therefore, as her partner he needs to be aware of that so he can be there for her when she needs moral/emotional support to deal with this fact of life for her as a black woman. 

Zoe and Randall are just people like everyone else, they are also black. Their blackness don't need to be erease in order for them to be seen as "just people". Since we live in a society that has racism in it, that means as black people, they will experience it in blunt and subtle ways that might make people uncomfortable but that's life for black people. Those experiences shouldn't be erease or not shown, and it doesn't take away from them just being people. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by SevenStars

[debraran]

4 hours ago, kili said:

I think she may have been less valuable over the last year because she is dealing with so many personal issues. She's dealing with her FIL moving into the house. She's dealing with her husband having a major backdown and quitting his job. Then the FIL dies. Then they become foster parents. Then her kid runs away from home and ends up in the car with a drunk driver. Then she's adopting a child. I can see why she might not have been putting in 125% effort at work. Maybe the guys that they are keeping don't have to deal with a three-ring circus of angst whenever they go home and can devote 60+ hours a week to working. 

HR people always want you to stick to the script when you are laying somebody off. Every extra thing you say could result in litigation.

I think that Beth fell apart in the interview because she's overloaded with the burden of carrying her family mentally. She provides the stability that allows Randall to flit around whichever way the wind blows him. Today's he's a landlord. Tomorrow he's flying across the country two times in one day. Two days from now he's running for city counsellor. She needs somebody to lean on, but feels she  has nobody to lean on or the entire family will fall over. She can't deal with her grief properly because there is no time for her to fall apart. So, the emotion sneaks out when she least expects it.

"Her" could be Beth and it could be dementia. I just don't think it is causing her current problems. I hope that it isn't causing her current problems because the reasons that already exist in the show are reason enough that Randall needs to slow down and listen to her. She doesn't need to develop dementia in her 30s to give Randall a reason to notice her struggling. Whatever problems that plague "her" in the future may not manifest themselves this year. 

I honestly would not have made it with a high powered job and so many changes. If my husband insisted on adopting and then quitting jobs, buying buildings, running for office,  flying around to see eggs implanted (when is he home?) and all the things Randall does, I'd be exhausted. He also knows Deja who has been absent along with his girls lately, has issues that need someone around more. He had breakdowns so Beth can't, it's a lot of pressure. I think the marriage trouble Sterling talked about in an interview came on this year, last year he said they would be okay, and they want to show how this marriage is normal and no one is super-wife, mother, etc without fallout. He can't act like he's single in a way, making decisions that just he wants and not have fallout.

This job wasn't just "a job" it's really the income coming in, Randall has a big cushion but it's still a lot on someone. Beth isn't quiet Rebecca, Randall is used too growing up.  It will be interesting to see how the girls react to the fighting, emotional changes in Beth, etc.

Edited October 25, 2018 by debraran

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, kili said:

I think she may have been less valuable over the last year because she is dealing with so many personal issues. She's dealing with her FIL moving into the house. She's dealing with her husband having a major backdown and quitting his job. Then the FIL dies. Then they become foster parents. Then her kid runs away from home and ends up in the car with a drunk driver. Then she's adopting a child. I can see why she might not have been putting in 125% effort at work. Maybe the guys that they are keeping don't have to deal with a three-ring circus of angst whenever they go home and can devote 60+ hours a week to working. 

That could all be true.  Alternatively, Beth could have been dealing with all of that and actually handling work well, too.  However they measure productivity in that job, she could have been keeping up just fine.  She may have been the highest paid employee in that category, and if they had to make a cut, cutting her would save the most money.  And now she's gobsmacked and has to doubt herself when all along she was doing the job well despite all the aforementioned pressure at home.  I'm thinking we saw her quite dedicated to her job the few times they showed her working or referring to it, not distracted or running behind.  I didn't take the lay-off reason at face value, but maybe that's my skeptical side. 

[Trillium]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

That could all be true.  Alternatively, Beth could have been dealing with all of that and actually handling work well, too.  However they measure productivity in that job, she could have been keeping up just fine.  She may have been the highest paid employee in that category, and if they had to make a cut, cutting her would save the most money.  And now she's gobsmacked and has to doubt herself when all along she was doing the job well despite all the aforementioned pressure at home.  I'm thinking we saw her quite dedicated to her job the few times they showed her working or referring to it, not distracted or running behind.  I didn't take the lay-off reason at face value, but maybe that's my skeptical side. 

This happened to my neighbor. She had worked at her job 18 years and the organization she was working for was doing massive layoffs. She was #2 in her department which was HR. Since her boss wasn’t going to lay herself off, my neighbor got the boot. Absolutely nothing wrong with her performance or anything. But they would have had to lay off 2-3 people to get the cost savings just letting her go. 

 

She went through a very hard time after that, and it took her a while to find another job because her self confidence was definitely shaken. Beth’s reaction is very realistic to me. I think people are so intent on solving the “her” mystery that anything is a sign.

[Kirkydee]

19 minutes ago, Trillium said:

This happened to my neighbor. She had worked at her job 18 years and the organization she was working for was doing massive layoffs. She was #2 in her department which was HR. Since her boss wasn’t going to lay herself off, my neighbor got the boot. Absolutely nothing wrong with her performance or anything. But they would have had to lay off 2-3 people to get the cost savings just letting her go. 

 

She went through a very hard time after that, and it took her a while to find another job because her self confidence was definitely shaken. Beth’s reaction is very realistic to me. I think people are so intent on solving the “her” mystery that anything is a sign.

I have to agree with the 'her'.  We all want to know who 'her' is in the future we are grasping at anything that might be a clue.  But if Beth is 'her' I seriously doubt early onset dementia at this age.  As others have said we've seen the confident got-it-together Beth.  So it threw us collectively when we see Beth not bring her A game.  

Your comment on the neighbor losing her job has me thinking.  Beth has been there 12 years.  She probably was a strong employee.  Probably received big merit raises, bonuses, etc.  Unfortunately for her she now has a fat salary and is ripe being let go since they can release her ( even with the severance package) and save money