S03.E04: Vietnam

[debraran]

5 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

I went to the Holocaust Museum a few years ago (I actually wrote about that in my previous comment but then decided it was getting too long and it's off topic so I cut it out). A little overwhelming at some spots (the shoes!) but definitely worth the trip.

They do an interesting thing where you get a little four-page booklet on your way in with details of someone who was there. You're supposed to turn the pages as you work your way down the levels (there are four, that go chronologically (mostly); you start out by riding to the top in an elevator meant to feel like a cattle car, and you're kinda packed in with the group entering, at least as much as safety codes will allow, I assume, and watch a short video on the way up - and then you work your way down to the bottom and at the end you find out if "you" survived or not. (I did.) You need a (free) ticket to get in the main exhibit but there are several side exhibits you can just walk through (we saw a little but then I almost passed out shortly after we got into one room and we had to go get something to eat before our ticket time came up...so...don't do that). I don't know if it's still there but there was another exhibit based on the book Daniel's Story that was geared toward kids; I wanted to see it but by the time we got out of the main exhibit the museum was closing. (Then we went to the WW2/Korea/Vietnam**/Lincoln memorials, visited the giant Einstein statue at the National Academy of Sciences, and then to Founding Farmers for dinner, which was totally worth the hour+ we had to wait even at 8pm.)

**see, I'm on topic!

Thanks for all the tips and the restaurant, quite the experience it seems. One day in the spring I hope.  : )

You can never learn to much about mistakes made in the past.

[ams1001]

28 minutes ago, debraran said:

Thanks for all the tips and the restaurant, quite the experience it seems. One day in the spring I hope.  : )

You can never learn to much about mistakes made in the past.

Hope you make it there! (I'd say 'have fun' but that doesn't quite seem like the right sentiment for such a visit...). Just don't carry too much stuff. Lots of security...the less you have to deal with the better. You even have to go through security to get into the cafe, which is in a separate building.

[athousandclowns]

On October 17, 2018 at 7:05 AM, ClareWalks said:

Well, now I feel kind of weird about how to celebrate my husband's birthday tomorrow. October 18. Thank god he was born in the 80s.

On a lighter note, Jack really makes tighty-whities sexy again.

Celebrate with gusto !  That is also my late husbands birthday who was both in college and had a job with Lockheed when he got his notice. 

Such an awful time and as a young mother of both a toddler boy and infant boy( different  husband) I used to  say if it was still going on i would send them to Canada even if It meant I'd never see them again.  All the while sending packages and letters to the troops. 

I remember the day it "ended" and I was dancing /jumping up and down yelling by myself and I opened  the front  door to see if everyone was as excited. I lived across the street from a community college and not a horn was blown or cheer heard. 

Most war movies I avoid but wasn't bothered by this. 

I  second the admiration for the   sexy jockeys . 

[RedRockRosie]

On 10/17/2018 at 7:23 AM, PRgal said:

Would your draft number be called? Type in the month & day you were born to see if you would have been drafted. 

My then husband's number was #20. He had already registered & was declared 4F. His eyesight was terrible (he was basically declared legally blind) & was also in college at that time, so we were very lucky. Strange to be grateful for lousy eyesight but so many were actually grateful that a physical problem got them a 4F back then.

Lost friends & the ones that came home were never quite the same. It was a horrible time....especially the reception the vets got when they returned. I was a total hippy back then but I really really felt for those guys who returned & got treated like shit....not like too damn many actually wanted to go. Back in the mid/late 60's a lot of guys who didn't want to move to Canada, enlisted to (hopefully) get to choose what branch they wanted or to get special training...Navy or Air Force supposedly saw less combat than Marines or Army.

It was a time when so many wondered what if any future they had...no wonder our generation wanted to escape one way or the other.

 

I am curious to see the next time we see Jack actually get to talk with his brother & find out what really did happen back then.

[ThisIsMe]

5 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Are you seriously generalizing two entire generations based on a dozen comments that a shitty episode of an average TV show was boring?

It's not boring because it was set in the past. It was boring because it was a dull episode that regurgitated everything we already knew about St. Jack.

No, I am not "generalizing two entire generations."  I was expressing an opinion about how some of the comments on this forum play in to stereotypes. 

The oft-cited "Greatest Generation" before me had all kinds thoughts about kids in the 1960s & 1970s ... it is the way of the world and human experience for each age group to think they have it worse, better, whatever ... and that no one understands their generation.  

What I like about TIU is that it attempts to bridge some of the generational divide.  I happened to like the Vietnam episode and thought it was a good effort in terms of explaining what those years & experiences were like.

[Snapdragon]

Count me in as one that was less than impressed by this episode.  As others have said, it was just more of the same with Jack being super great and the show wanting to show more of his super greatness.  Besides that though, I think the biggest problem with the whole Vietnam storyline is that Jack going to Vietnam has zero impact on the character.  Several people on here have written about their real life experiences with friends and family who served in Vietnam and how they weren't the same once they got back.  Pre-Vietnam Jack and post-Vietnam Jack are exactly alike.  If they had shown pre-Vietnam Jack to be immature, or selfish or somehow different than the Jack we're used to seeing, then his having fought in Vietnam would serve a purpose in showing us how aspects of his character were developed.  Instead, the only thing that sets pre and post-Vietnam Jack apart is that one knows a way to calm people down by using a breathing technique.  That is literally the only difference.  

[DebbieM4]

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Milo being front and center as star isn't going to change, so we can expect to see lots of him, though I think he didn't appear at all in a recent episode?  Anyway, he isn't totally sainted, he was about to rob a bar, he was drunk and disorderly on Rebecca's band's gig out of town, drove drunk, he sat in a bar after work when Rebecca had her hands full at home, he undercuts her with the kids, he overindulges Kate, so he has been shown to have normal human flawed behavior.   But I am not very impressed with this season so far, it lacks humor and it's just sort of clunking along.  I hope it can pick up steam. 

I agree.  I'm worried that it won't get back to what it was.  It seems to be veering all over, and has lost a lot of what made it special.  The use of flashbacks used to be masterful.  Now, very often they seem to be awkward, go on far too long, and are not very interesting.  I think the writers need to anchor us in the present far more than they've been doing.  I'd like to see less Jack, and more of the family in the years after his death.  More of Randall and Beth's early years, more of their girls, the beginnings of Rebecca and Miguel as a couple, etc.  Flashbacks are fine, but not when they're overdone and not when they dominate.   Flashbacks for the sake of having flashbacks is going to damage this show, IMO. 

And yes - as you said - it needs more touches of humor.  I want to feel the emotions that I felt in the beginning, and I want to believe that this is a real family with real issues and real lives.   This season has not even come close to grabbing me yet.

7 hours ago, ThisIsMe said:

Very interesting to read all of the "I was bored"  and "get back to the present day" comments about this episode.

For me, that just reinforces the stereotype that millenials and Gen Xers don't really give a damn if it's not relevant to them.  

Yes, I am a boomer, and I lived through the Vietnam era.  I had cousins who served, and although they survived, they each came back messed up in one way or another ... because it was a terrible, crazy, ugly war that took a tremendous toll. 

This country ignored what happened in Vietnam for decades.  I think we can spare 48 minutes to hear a few fictional stories depicting the personal toll it took on so many.

I'm a boomer, and I strongly disagree with all of this.

Edited October 19, 2018 by DebbieM4

[Colleenna]

On 10/17/2018 at 2:00 PM, albinerhawk said:

My mom went to college and paid for her own tuition. She was born in 1950. Nick doesn't seem to be a slacker. I'm sure if he put his mind to it he could have gone to school.

Pittsburgh. 1970s. The steel industry, Alcoa, and Heinz ALL going strong. There was plenty of high-paying work to be had without college. For a kid from a blue-collar home in a blue-collar town, college probably wasn't even considered. 

[Kira53]

12 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Milo being front and center as star isn't going to change, so we can expect to see lots of him, though I think he didn't appear at all in a recent episode?  Anyway, he isn't totally sainted, he was about to rob a bar, he was drunk and disorderly on Rebecca's band's gig out of town, drove drunk, he sat in a bar after work when Rebecca had her hands full at home, he undercuts her with the kids, he overindulges Kate, so he has been shown to have normal human flawed behavior.  

1

Not exactly a saint.  And I expect he will do good and bad thing in Vietnam.  Probably controversial things.  Vietnam was like that...... 

I think anyone that loses their father or husband after he rescued them from a burning house is going to revere him.  I don't think of Jack as a saint but I understand why his kids and former wife would forget the bad stuff.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Kira53

[Soup333]

Now that I think about it I kind of wish they hadn’t given Jack a heart condition. I know they had to figure out a way for him to have an out but it kind of cheapens the story of his death for me. It felt more devastating for it to have been a sudden, unexpected result of his last heroic actions. Now it’s kind of like, well, he did have that heart thing. 

Eh, I don’t know. If they find a way to weave it into the story I want to see, which is the way they coped directly after his death, then maybe it won’t feel like they had blinking red “WARNING: Tragic Continuity” signs at every mention of his heart in this episode. If Rebecca knew about his heart condition (and she’d have had to, right?) then seeing how she dealt with that knowledge as she mourned him would be interesting. 

[DebbieM4]

1 hour ago, Snapdragon said:

Count me in as one that was less than impressed by this episode.  As others have said, it was just more of the same with Jack being super great and the show wanting to show more of his super greatness.  Besides that though, I think the biggest problem with the whole Vietnam storyline is that Jack going to Vietnam has zero impact on the character.  Several people on here have written about their real life experiences with friends and family who served in Vietnam and how they weren't the same once they got back.  Pre-Vietnam Jack and post-Vietnam Jack are exactly alike.  If they had shown pre-Vietnam Jack to be immature, or selfish or somehow different than the Jack we're used to seeing, then his having fought in Vietnam would serve a purpose in showing us how aspects of his character were developed.  Instead, the only thing that sets pre and post-Vietnam Jack apart is that one knows a way to calm people down by using a breathing technique.  That is literally the only difference.  

You make a very good point.  I think that's one of the things that bothered me too, although I couldn't quite put my finger on it.  The whole "Jack was in Vietnam" thing didn't ring true to me.  It was like the Jack we knew, just wearing a uniform and in a different setting, nothing really more than that.   I also thought the calming-down thing was too heavy-handed and eyeroll-worthy.   It shouldn't have been part of such a cliche-filled scene because it took away the impact.  For me, anyway.

7 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Now that I think about it I kind of wish they hadn’t given Jack a heart condition. I know they had to figure out a way for him to have an out but it kind of cheapens the story of his death for me. It felt more devastating for it to have been a sudden, unexpected result of his last heroic actions. Now it’s kind of like, well, he did have that heart thing. 

Eh, I don’t know. If they find a way to weave it into the story I want to see, which is the way they coped directly after his death, then maybe it won’t feel like they had blinking red “WARNING: Tragic Continuity” signs at every mention of his heart in this episode. If Rebecca knew about his heart condition (and she’d have had to, right?) then seeing how she dealt with that knowledge as she mourned him would be interesting. 

I agree.  His heart condition was front and center throughout this episode  (overkill, IMO), and knowing that he had it all along cheapens the story of his death for me too.  

[ProudMary]

8 hours ago, ThisIsMe said:

Very interesting to read all of the "I was bored"  and "get back to the present day" comments about this episode.

For me, that just reinforces the stereotype that millenials and Gen Xers don't really give a damn if it's not relevant to them.  

Yes, I am a boomer, and I lived through the Vietnam era.  I had cousins who served, and although they survived, they each came back messed up in one way or another ... because it was a terrible, crazy, ugly war that took a tremendous toll. 

This country ignored what happened in Vietnam for decades.  I think we can spare 48 minutes to hear a few fictional stories depicting the personal toll it took on so many.

I am also a boomer and remember the Vietnam era well. 
For the first time ever while watching a TIU episode, I found myself going through my phone because I was bored.  That means nothing about my feelings on the war in Vietnam, it means the TIU writers did a lousy job telling the story they set out to tell.

And the part of your comment that I put in bold letters:  They are ALL terrible, crazy, ugly wars that take a tremendous toll, each in their own awful way.  Do you truly believe that Gen Xers and Millennials that have returned home from Iraq or Afghanistan are any less messed up than those who returned from Vietnam?

[Amethyst]

On 10/17/2018 at 9:45 PM, theatremouse said:

I think if this episode has been much more Nick-centric I would've appreciated it more. I'm just bored by Jack. I didn't learn anything I didn't already know about Jack in this episode. Sure, they gave us some specific pieces of information we didn't have before, but none of it was anything I couldn't have guessed, and knowing those things doesn't do anything more for me to inform his character. It was all just "yup, that tracks perfectly with what they've shown before". So I felt like I didn't really need to know. Seeing the "breathe" thing with the friend-originator of that just played to me like the show being all " 'eh, see? Yeah? You know this thing. Here's a flashback/forward to remind you in case you forgot. See? Origin story of holding Randall's face. Oooooooooh. Also he lost part of his leg, and you've seen two seconds of Kevin interacting with someone with a prosthetic leg. Ooooooooh. It connects. Isn't that impressive?" And I'm like, no? Not really? It's not especially satisfying to get this detail? I mean nothing wrong with it either but it seemed kinda wink-winky too proud of itself?

Nailed it, especially the bolded part.  I like the Vietnam plot, but not Jack's side of it, because I'm so tired of hearing about him.  That's why the episode really started when Nicky appeared.  The brief scene showing the lottery was more suspenseful than the first twenty minutes of the episode.  

While Jack's reasoning for enlisting is noble, I honestly don't care anymore.  I would rather know about Nicky and his experiences in Vietnam.  This episode had to introduce him, so now we know who he is a little of what he's like.  I'm hoping we'll get him telling his own story.

[ThisIsMe]

44 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Do you truly believe that Gen Xers and Millennials that have returned home from Iraq or Afghanistan are any less messed up than those who returned from Vietnam?

Never said that.  Never would.

[JMarie99]

On 10/17/2018 at 3:30 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

My main complaint is that that the big battle scene at the beginning of the episode was so fucking dark that I could barely see what was happening. There was no need for any acting or facial expressions since I couldn't see them.

 

I may be reading too much into this, but from what I recall this was a big problem for us during the Vietnam war, waging war under cover of darkness in jungle-like territory, not knowing who our enemy was. Putting us at a huge disadvantage. Perhaps this is what they were trying to portray. 

[pennben]

10 hours ago, ThisIsMe said:

 

This country ignored what happened in Vietnam for decades.  I think we can spare 48 minutes to hear a few fictional stories depicting the personal toll it took on so many.

This country is also ignoring  the current losses of lives in Iraq/Afghanistan in more recent years. It’s even more easy to ignore for most these days without a draft meaning universal concern for all sons, now it is only the career folks or folks who just need a decent job who are at risk..not potentially every family.  Maybe we need to focus on the now more than what we all recognize as a level of awful in the past  

Regardless, a glorified soap opera isn’t going to solve anything. And saying this was a boring episode says no more than saying Williams scenes were boring and unnecessary last week. It just wasn’t good storytelling in the context of this show. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by pennben

[debraran]

5 hours ago, Soup333 said:

Now that I think about it I kind of wish they hadn’t given Jack a heart condition. I know they had to figure out a way for him to have an out but it kind of cheapens the story of his death for me. It felt more devastating for it to have been a sudden, unexpected result of his last heroic actions. Now it’s kind of like, well, he did have that heart thing. 

Eh, I don’t know. If they find a way to weave it into the story I want to see, which is the way they coped directly after his death, then maybe it won’t feel like they had blinking red “WARNING: Tragic Continuity” signs at every mention of his heart in this episode. If Rebecca knew about his heart condition (and she’d have had to, right?) then seeing how she dealt with that knowledge as she mourned him would be interesting. 

Rebecca didn't know much it seemed. It doesn't seem like they discussed Vietnam, his childhood or health. He hid that picture in the garage for pete's sake of his brother etc. My dad had a box in his drawer I found as a kid and he told me for the first time about a brother who died very young.  He hadn't hidden that from my mother though.  I think she would be asked by Kevin but I'd be surprised if she knew much. They never mention when his mom passes (if she did) but show his dad alone in nursing home. Since they mentioned the heart at least 3 times, it has be interwoven in the story later. You can die without a heart condition in a fire but it would make it easier.  I think if I were Kate it wouldn't make me feel better, sure  it hastened his life but he knew it and did it and left us alone. A hard one with a pet. I don't remember anyone calling 911 or running to neighbors but maybe in flashbacks.

[ShadowFacts]

5 hours ago, JMarie99 said:

I may be reading too much into this, but from what I recall this was a big problem for us during the Vietnam war, waging war under cover of darkness in jungle-like territory, not knowing who our enemy was. Putting us at a huge disadvantage. Perhaps this is what they were trying to portray. 

That was a big problem and that's how defoliants like Agent Orange came into play, with deadly consequences echoing for decades, to this day.  But then again, any battle could be chaotic and hard to know where the fire was coming from, who is the enemy, etc. 

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, pennben said:

This country is also ignoring  the current losses of lives in Iraq/Afghanistan in more recent years. It’s even more easy to ignore for most these days without a draft meaning universal concern for all sons, now it is only the career folks or folks who just need a decent job who are at risk..not potentially every family.  Maybe we need to focus on the now more than what we all recognize as a level of awful in the past  

Absolutely we need to focus on the now, but the problem is, people don't want to see what they don't want to see.  Dead soldiers don't make the news very much on a national level, only when one comes home in a body bag from your own locality.  I was just reading that the military is having recruitment troubles in this low unemployment economy.  Is a draft really something that could never happen again?  Anyway, to keep it to this episode, it seems clear from the pages of comments that the Vietnam war still has some ability to inflame emotions.  Maybe it's mostly Jack overload for some viewers, but I also think Vietnam is just something a fair number of people don't want to see.  But we will be seeing more on this show, it seems pretty clear. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by ShadowFacts
grammar

[readheaded]

10 hours ago, Colleenna said:

Pittsburgh. 1970s. The steel industry, Alcoa, and Heinz ALL going strong. There was plenty of high-paying work to be had without college. For a kid from a blue-collar home in a blue-collar town, college probably wasn't even considered. 

This.  My dad's from Baltimore where Bethlehem Steel and any other number of well-paying manufacturing jobs were where the blue-collar kids went to work.  My dad wasn't college-bound, and didn't care for school (he's a more hands-on kind of person-plumbing and foundation work aside, he literally built his own house).  He was also drafted and served, but ended up spending his service time in Germany.  The idea that the college-bound were exempt is horrifying to me.

[Dminches]

The episode brought back memories of when I was a 10 year-old summer camper in upstate NY in 1971 when the 3rd lottery was held.  One of my counselors had a number in the single digits.  It was a very sad time for him and his brother.  I was too young to understand the enormity of it but I did understand their sadness.

I prefer this type of episode to the current period story lines including all the Pearson adults.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Dminches

[Soup333]

45 minutes ago, readheaded said:

This.  My dad's from Baltimore where Bethlehem Steel and any other number of well-paying manufacturing jobs were where the blue-collar kids went to work.  My dad wasn't college-bound, and didn't care for school (he's a more hands-on kind of person-plumbing and foundation work aside, he literally built his own house).  He was also drafted and served, but ended up spending his service time in Germany.  The idea that the college-bound were exempt is horrifying to me.

Yes. And the tire industry in Ohio. It’s easy to look back in time and say folks should have simply did this or that without actually thinking about what life was like for them. Everyone wasn’t college bound. It was an exemption for the elite who could afford to enroll. 

[PRgal]

10 hours ago, ProudMary said:

I am also a boomer and remember the Vietnam era well. 
For the first time ever while watching a TIU episode, I found myself going through my phone because I was bored.  That means nothing about my feelings on the war in Vietnam, it means the TIU writers did a lousy job telling the story they set out to tell.

And the part of your comment that I put in bold letters:  They are ALL terrible, crazy, ugly wars that take a tremendous toll, each in their own awful way.  Do you truly believe that Gen Xers and Millennials that have returned home from Iraq or Afghanistan are any less messed up than those who returned from Vietnam?

I think GenXers and Millennials are getting MORE help with PTSD since we are now more aware and open about mental health issues.  There's still a long, long way to go to full destigmatization though.

[Rowan]

 I swear, this show. I had my preconceived notions about how I was going to feel about this Vietnam stuff. Parts of it were hit or miss, but I’ll be damned if I didn’t get honest to God choked up at that pan of the Oct 18 babies. You would think “Darkness, Darkness” playing would clue me in for it, but I was not prepared. All that innocence and potential fated for war.

For me, the show stumbles under the weight that  it carries from the pilot and much of the first season. I adored it. Now, I sometimes feel it’s emotionally manipulative and cheesy, but it still really touches me at times. 

[Blakeston]

18 hours ago, ThisIsMe said:

It just seemed to me that there was a lot of complaining going on along the lines of "I don't care about the Vietnam story/I want things to stay present day" etc.

Just because someone doesn't want to watch a Vietnam story on this particular show, or happens to prefer the present-day storylines to hearing more about St. Jack, doesn't mean that they don't care about the past.

I'd love to see a Vietnam storyline on this show with some originality, but the Vietnam scenes we've seen so far have given me no hope. I can't even count the number of war movies I've seen with some version of that scene with the fish - where a Bad Soldier is cruel to a local child, on the grounds that "in a few years, he'll be trying to kill us!" Followed by a more reasonable soldier admitting that he has a point.

I swear, if that kid shows up again to save (or end) someone's life, I may have to throw something at my TV.

[Biggie B]

Quote

While Jack's reasoning for enlisting is noble, I honestly don't care anymore.  I would rather know about Nicky and his experiences in Vietnam.  This episode had to introduce him, so now we know who he is a little of what he's like.  I'm hoping we'll get him telling his own story.

I'm interested in Nick as well, but even if we find out every single thing about him, none of the current-day characters will know as much as we will. The two people who know Nick the best - Jack and Nick - are both dead and can't tell Nick's story to anyone. Whatever Kevin might find out will be second or third hand information. And sure, even that little bit of info will affect Kevin and perhaps his siblings, but not as directly as we'll be affected. Again, like so much of Jack's Vietnam experiences, I find this frustrating. I know more about Jack and Nick than their children/niece/nephews do. Nick is definitely a compelling character to me, but he's so divorced from the other characters. Is he there just to show more of Jack's persona? 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Biggie B

[ThisIsMe]

28 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I can't even count the number of war movies I've seen with some version of that scene with the fish - where a Bad Soldier is cruel to a local child, on the grounds that "in a few years, he'll be trying to kill us!" Followed by a more reasonable soldier admitting that he has a point.

I swear, if that kid shows up again to save (or end) someone's life, I may have to throw something at my TV.

I didn't even think of that ... but, yeah, it's the perfect setup for when Kevin goes to present-day Vietnam, and that kid somehow factors in to the story.  

Better start thinking about what to throw at the TV ...

[ThisIsMe]

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

I think GenXers and Millennials are getting MORE help with PTSD since we are now more aware and open about mental health issues.  There's still a long, long way to go to full destigmatization though.

Excellent point.  The Vietnam vets got very little mental health help when they got back home.  Plus, the country was so divided over the messed up war that our politicians got us in to ... both the experience in the war and readjustment back at home were terrible ... and with very little resources or public support on their side.  Today we hear "thank you for your service" all the time.  Then, not hardly.

[Eeksquire]

I think the problem I had with this episode was not the war scenes, per se (although as others have pointed out, much of the content of those scenes was war-movie cliche), it was that I'm weary of Jack-as-perfect-hero.  The more the show tells me how perfect and wonderful and Superman-y Jack is, the less believable he is, which - for me - takes me out of the whole show because I'm waiting for Jack to be more human.  It's one thing to show me that, from the perspective of his wife and children who lost him too young, he was unequivocally perfect and wonderful. It's another thing for the SHOW to believe that.  A lot of the first couple of seasons' plot was driven by the mystery of how Jack died; now that the audience knows that, there has to be something more as a reason to keep him in the show.  Just putting the character in Vietnam doesn't do that for me if he's 'perfect Jack' and not a human being.  Perfect people have very little conflict - witness Jack getting his guys to work and thus convincing his superior officer to let him go see Nick - there's no conflict there, and it's boring.

The parts of this episode that I found most effective (and least boring) were the scenes referencing the October 18 date - the lottery, the nursery full of infants with that in their future and, strikingly, neither had anything to do with Jack.  

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

I think GenXers and Millennials are getting MORE help with PTSD since we are now more aware and open about mental health issues.  There's still a long, long way to go to full destigmatization though.

It's funny you mention that, in the report I read the other day about the military having trouble with recruitment, that very thing was mentioned -- one of the things holding back potential enlistees is their fear they will end up with PTSD.

59 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I swear, if that kid shows up again to save (or end) someone's life, I may have to throw something at my TV.

I'm pretty sure you can count on seeing him and his mother again, along with everyone else they introduced, and chances are high that something bad will happen.  So yeah, there's plenty of predictability but I don't really know what would be original writing.  Everything is derivative in some way.  However there may be some sort of TIU-style twist when Kevin goes and finds out something about his dad and uncle, that avoids the soap opera cliched discovery of offspring of one of them, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[doodlebug]

18 hours ago, Colleenna said:

Pittsburgh. 1970s. The steel industry, Alcoa, and Heinz ALL going strong. There was plenty of high-paying work to be had without college. For a kid from a blue-collar home in a blue-collar town, college probably wasn't even considered. 

True, but the show made a point of telling us that Nicky wanted to be a doctor.  I grew up in a rust belt city similar to Pittsburgh a few years younger than Nicky and, you're absolutely right.  There were a lot of excellent blue collar union jobs out there, especially if you had a dad or an uncle or family friend who worked at the plant and could get you in.  Those jobs paid very well, had very good benefits including excellent retirement, and, in general, once you got hired into the plant; you could spend the rest of your working life there if that's what you wanted.  It was not at all like factory work today.   However, there were kids from those neighborhoods and that background who wanted to go to college back in that era and plenty of blue collar parents who encouraged their kids to go to college.  I was from that background and had those parents, hence, I ended up in medical school and not at the Ford plant.

[Dreamboat Annie]

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎19 at 1:44 PM, ShadowFacts said:

However there may be some sort of TIU-style twist when Kevin goes and finds out something about his dad and uncle, that avoids the soap opera cliched discovery of offspring of one of them, but I'm not holding my breath.

I think there's a reasonably good chance Kevin's quest will result in the soap opera clichéd discovery of offspring.  Although very brief, it looked to me like there was an exchange of a somewhat  meaningful glance between Jack and the little boy's mother. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Dreamboat Annie

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

I there's a reasonably good chance Kevin's quest will result in the soap opera clichéd discovery of offspring.  Although very brief, it looked to me like there was an exchange of a somewhat  meaningful glance between Jack and the little boy's mother. 

Granted, I didn't watch most of it, but I think it will be more likely that Nicky has offspring there.   If Jack thought he had left a child behind, he would have gone back. This is Jack we're talking about.

[albinerhawk]

19 hours ago, Kira53 said:

Not exactly a saint.  And I expect he will do good and bad thing in Vietnam.  Probably controversial things.  Vietnam was like that...... 

I think anyone that loses their father or husband after he rescued them from a burning house is going to revere him.  I don't think of Jack as a saint but I understand why his kids and former wife would forget the bad stuff.

So I was thinking about this the other day. What is this show? Breaking it down, I feel like it's the story of three siblings. The flashbacks help to flesh out their childhood. I think one of the main reasons I feel this way is that you never see Rebecca have a modern day story of her own. Any time her character enters into the modern day timeline it's always in reference to one of her children. This also give the show some leeway with the image of St Jack. Of course the children would idolize their beloved father that they lost at such an age. However it makes episodes like this more distracting. I feel like we should have delved in Jack's Vietnam past through Kevin's eyes as he is already on this journey to better understand his father.

[Haleth]

Argh!  Two more minutes and Nick might still have been alive!

Quote

we all know Jack said he got that necklace in Vietnam and now we know from whom: the woman (presumably the mother of the little boy with the fish) was wearing it.

Ugh, please no Vietnamese half sibling.  I've seen Miss Saigon.

I ran my whole family through the draft counter and the only one who would have been called up is my girly girl daughter. Private Benjamin, anyone?  (Another age marker.)

eta: Even though many felt this episode was boring, it was necessary to set up the context for how and why Jack enlisted, and provides the background information for when Kevin researches his father's experience.  I think in the future we'll see Kevin's experiences intercut with Jack's.

Quote

 I feel like we should have delved in Jack's Vietnam past through Kevin's eyes as he is already on this journey to better understand his father.

I think that's coming.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Haleth

[DebbieM4]

13 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Absolutely we need to focus on the now, but the problem is, people don't want to see what they don't want to see.  Dead soldiers don't make the news very much on a national level, only when one comes home in a body bag from your own locality.  I was just reading that the military is having recruitment troubles in this low unemployment economy.  Is a draft really something that could never happen again?  Anyway, to keep it to this episode, it seems clear from the pages of comments that the Vietnam war still has some ability to inflame emotions.  Maybe it's mostly Jack overload for some viewers, but I also think Vietnam is just something a fair number of people don't want to see.  But we will be seeing more on this show, it seems pretty clear. 

 

I think a lot of us don't have a problem seeing a story about Vietnam.  But this wasn't (in the opinions of several posters here including myself) well done.  It's not a rejection of Vietnam as a topic, but rather a criticism of something that we felt was poorly-written and not compelling.    We can certainly feel bored by a show about Vietnam, or a movie, book or whatever without it meaning that we're rejecting the topic of Vietnam.  A poor, cliche-filled script is just that, IMO, no matter what the subject matter happens to be.

6 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

I think the problem I had with this episode was not the war scenes, per se (although as others have pointed out, much of the content of those scenes was war-movie cliche), it was that I'm weary of Jack-as-perfect-hero.  The more the show tells me how perfect and wonderful and Superman-y Jack is, the less believable he is, which - for me - takes me out of the whole show because I'm waiting for Jack to be more human.  It's one thing to show me that, from the perspective of his wife and children who lost him too young, he was unequivocally perfect and wonderful. It's another thing for the SHOW to believe that.  A lot of the first couple of seasons' plot was driven by the mystery of how Jack died; now that the audience knows that, there has to be something more as a reason to keep him in the show.  Just putting the character in Vietnam doesn't do that for me if he's 'perfect Jack' and not a human being.  Perfect people have very little conflict - witness Jack getting his guys to work and thus convincing his superior officer to let him go see Nick - there's no conflict there, and it's boring.

The parts of this episode that I found most effective (and least boring) were the scenes referencing the October 18 date - the lottery, the nursery full of infants with that in their future and, strikingly, neither had anything to do with Jack.  

I agree.  I think you've described very well why I find pretty much anything involving Jack to be boring.  Just the same ol' Jack over and over.  And no conflict.  And yes, the nursery scene was very well done.  Easily the most effective part of this episode for me.

2 hours ago, albinerhawk said:

 I feel like we should have delved in Jack's Vietnam past through Kevin's eyes as he is already on this journey to better understand his father.

Yes, that would have made more sense and probably would have been far more interesting.

Edited October 20, 2018 by DebbieM4
wonky punctuation

[breezy424]

Well, finally watched the episode tonight.  Honestly, I'm just not invested in Jack.  He's gone and his story is not 'that' important to me at this point.

I'm at the end of the boomers.  I get the importance of Vietnam and the effects and toll it took.   However,  I'm just over Saint Jack.  I was more interested in Nicky's story.  And unfortunately, we didn't get much.  The attempt to show Nicky as Kevin was a total fail.  Hair doesn't get lighter with age.  It gets darker.  I wish they did a better job with this because that would have made the story so much more interesting.

I also could see the youngest Jack in Jack.  The older one I wasn't feeling at all.  TPTB did such a great job with the triplets at various ages but for me this was a total fail.

It's unfortunate that the twists in the first season have gone away and it seems to me that TPTB are so wrapped upped in their egos that the concept of the show has been lost.

Wasn't the original concept that the show would be four seasons and done?  Seems there's a lot of stretching going on and it's not doing the show any favors.

[chocolatine]

4 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

Wasn't the original concept that the show would be four seasons and done?  Seems there's a lot of stretching going on and it's not doing the show any favors.

I think the original concept was three seasons, but Fogelman et al. are now obviously angling for more, hence the Vietnam filler.

Edited October 20, 2018 by chocolatine

[lucindabelle]

On 10/17/2018 at 12:03 AM, pennben said:

Uggh, I knew a Vietnam episode was coming and I dreaded it. I guess it wasn’t as bad as I thought it might be, so there is that. 

To be honest, one of my biggest fears for the Vietnam episode was that it would show Jack being a hero, and cut to Rebecca singing at an anti-war protest, and kaboom, Rebecca would suck more for not supporting mythical Jack back then. 

So, I’ve liked the show, hated the show, liked it, hated it, enjoyed it. However, I think these show runners have no business telling a Vietnam story because they haven’t shown me the gravitas to pull off  something so, so devastatingly real. They can do drama, but war is more than drama. 

So, anyway...see you all next week!!:)

Who thinks we are going to go a My Lai route? Which is just insulting to viewers... but as soon as they said “secure the village” I was all uh oh. And the  pretty mom.

 

its as if there is only one story to tell.

[lucindabelle]

On 10/18/2018 at 4:55 AM, Dowel Jones said:

A couple of random observation, now that I finally watched the episode.

The news film posted earlier showed the actual method of the lottery.  The birthday and the number were both selected at the same time, so you might not know your actual number until late in the selection.  That's what I remember as a 17 year old in 1971 (I drew 315 next year, I think).  I realize the show had to compress the process by assigning a number to a sequential date for dramatic purposes.

Nick was assigned to the Americal Division (from the return address on the envelope, which, by the way, had way too much information on for a war zone).  That revived a memory for me so I Wiki-researched it, and I was correct.  The Division was based in Chu Lai, and a small part of the Division committed the massacre at My Lai in 1969.  That's not to say that Nick participated; it's just what the Division was known for at the time.  The Wiki article also lists various personnel of note who served in the Division:  Tim O'Brien, who has been mentioned already, Norman Schwarzkopf, and future Pittsburg Steeler Rocky Bleier.

I noted with some irony the delivery of a Sears home catalogue early in the episode.  RIP, Sears.

My Lai I knew it I knew it. UGH the cliche.

 

I must be the only woman on earth who hated the fun final episode of mash because I thought the woman so suffocating her baby by accident was clichéd and I was only a teenager at the time.

 

I definitely agree that people who experienced the era probably do bring some of their own emotions and memories to it and they may be causing saving for some of the cliché with stuff that’s in there.

 

I definitely agree that people who experienced the era probably do bring some of their own emotions and memories to it and they may be causing saving for some of the cliché with stuff that’s in there.

 

The moment this guy said he wanted to be an athlete of course we knew he was going to get injured. The moment Jack said let’s stop here and they weren’t in Canada yet you knew they weren’t going to Canada. I mean we knew it because we know Nicki goes to Vietnaam but it was pretty clumsy wait to write it.

 

And now apparently we’re going to get My Lai. They must assume none of us have ever watched anything about Viet Nam before or read anything. 

I wont be watching, ill just read comments. I know the atrocities were bad and I know it was not just one place but come ON. 

The lottery at least was fresh. 

[debraran]

6 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

My Lai I knew it I knew it. UGH the cliche.

 

I must be the only woman on earth who hated the fun final episode of mash because I thought the woman so suffocating her baby by accident was clichéd and I was only a teenager at the time.

 

I definitely agree that people who experienced the era probably do bring some of their own emotions and memories to it and they may be causing saving for some of the cliché with stuff that’s in there.

 

I definitely agree that people who experienced the era probably do bring some of their own emotions and memories to it and they may be causing saving for some of the cliché with stuff that’s in there.

 

The moment this guy said he wanted to be an athlete of course we knew he was going to get injured. The moment Jack said let’s stop here and they weren’t in Canada yet you knew they weren’t going to Canada. I mean we knew it because we know Nicki goes to Vietnaam but it was pretty clumsy wait to write it.

 

And now apparently we’re going to get My Lai. They must assume none of us have ever watched anything about Viet Nam before or read anything. 

I wont be watching, ill just read comments. I know the atrocities were bad and I know it was not just one place but come ON. 

The lottery at least was fresh. 

I remember that MASH, my memory had it as another episode but it was disturbing. I loved the scenes with Freedman though.  I thought Vietnam on TIU was supposed to more about Nicky and not actually a documentary on the war, with Jack as a hero, but how did Nicky die, what was left (the half sibling possibility bothers me more) and I'm sure we will hear survivors stories told in flashbacks. Nicky seems very "cardboard" now to me, just an instrument to show Jack more. I really thought we'd see scenes with just him for a while, silly me. ; )

[Pallas]

On 10/18/2018 at 9:52 PM, Snapdragon said:

Instead, the only thing that sets pre and post-Vietnam Jack apart is that one knows a way to calm people down by using a breathing technique.  That is literally the only difference.

Post-Vietnam Jack spends his first year back unable to settle into a job other than card shark, until he is a moonshadow away from knocking over a bar: a scheme that likely would have ended with him jailed or killed. For the rest of his life he will take up drinking -- for hours after work when the kids are young, then later, on the job and out in the garage -- to escape.

 

13 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

My Lai I knew it I knew it. UGH the cliche.

Nicky was still in high school in Pittsburgh when the My Lai massacre occurred on March 18, 1968. He won't be in Vietnam until two years later. He was drafted or enlisted following the December 1969 lottery; basic training followed by advanced individual training as an infantryman would put NIcky in Vietnam in the spring of 1970. 

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Post-Vietnam Jack spends his first year back unable to settle into a job other than card shark, until he is a moonshadow away from knocking over a bar: a scheme that likely would have ended with him jailed or killed. For the rest of his life he will take up drinking -- for hours after work when the kids are young, then later, on the job and out in the garage -- to escape.

 

NIcky was still in high school in Pittsburgh when the My Lai massacre occured on March 18, 1968. He won't be in Vietnam until two years later. He was drafted or enlisted following the December 1969 lottery; basic training followed by advanced individual training as an infantryman would put NIcky in Vietnam in the spring of 1970. 

Very good points. 

I sense a disturbance in the force; the Jack negativity is strong.  He's too saintly (though his flaws are on full display), he's boring, we know all this already, etc.  Once he met Rebecca, Jack acquitted himself pretty well, compared to many of his cohort.  Somebody recently suggested that there may be some sort of reaction to recent male characters like Walter White, Saul Goodman, Don Draper, etc.  There's a wide chasm between these characters and Jack, and a wide one between all-too-human Jack and sainthood. 

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, Pallas said:

Post-Vietnam Jack spends his first year back unable to settle into a job other than card shark, until he is a moonshadow away from knocking over a bar: a scheme that likely would have ended with him jailed or killed. For the rest of his life he will take up drinking -- for hours after work when the kids are young, then later, on the job and out in the garage -- to escape.

 

Nicky was still in high school in Pittsburgh when the My Lai massacre occurred on March 18, 1968. He won't be in Vietnam until two years later. He was drafted or enlisted following the December 1969 lottery; basic training followed by advanced individual training as an infantryman would put NIcky in Vietnam in the spring of 1970. 

Nicky was born in 1948 - he would have graduated from high school in either '66 or '67, depending on when cut off is.  

[DebbieM4]

20 hours ago, breezy424 said:

 

It's unfortunate that the twists in the first season have gone away and it seems to me that TPTB are so wrapped upped in their egos that the concept of the show has been lost.

 

That's been my feeling lately too.

 

18 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

 

The moment this guy said he wanted to be an athlete of course we knew he was going to get injured. The moment Jack said let’s stop here and they weren’t in Canada yet you knew they weren’t going to Canada. I mean we knew it because we know Nicki goes to Vietnaam but it was pretty clumsy wait to write it.

 

Exactly.  For a show that's been so good at surprising us with things out of left field, this kind of thing is really disappointing.

[zillabreeze]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:17 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah.. this was another meh for meh.  This episode like the last other ones did nothing for me.

The problem is.. all these episodes this season feel like filler episodes. And that’s a big problem. I had hoped that the show didn’t lose its interesting factor with the reveal of jacks death but it seems to be what’s done this show in. 

Jacks story is affecting of course, but we know how his story ends. 

"Filler".... Bingo, excellent.   That's my thought.  Maybe I missed something, I was traveling and watched on Demand.  I was bored to tears.   Perhaps it's my age (old as F-, it was my 6pm news forever)  I have been "Vietnamed" to death, so this was a big yawn to me.

Not to be disrespectful.  I had family there.  I still see the aftermath with the ones that lived through.   

This show just , IMO, veered off to a place that went on too long & too preachy.  

Guess that's why I'm hanging more, right now, with " A Million Little Things"

Edited October 21, 2018 by zillabreeze

[debraran]

9 hours ago, zillabreeze said:

"Filler".... Bingo, excellent.   That's my thought.  Maybe I missed something, I was traveling and watched on Demand.  I was bored to tears.   Perhaps it's my age (old as F-, it was my 6pm news forever)  I have been "Vietnamed" to death, so this was a big yawn to me.

Not to be disrespectful.  I had family there.  I still see the aftermath with the ones that lived through.   

This show just , IMO, veered off to a place that went on too long & too preachy.  

Guess that's why I'm hanging more, right now, with " A Million Little Things"

I feel the same, re  A Million Little Things. I like them and so far the freshness and pace has me hooked. I loved TIU the first year, loved it, second season, less so, but still looked forward to it, now it's a habit and makes me roll my eyes more. I keep waiting for the magic of the first year, but the flash forwards (why does anyone care who "she " is?) the Kate and Toby mess,  Randall is acting crazy with that building, you never see him with his family.  Kevin's the most sane but possibly with someone that is not. Rebecca and Miguel are somewhere, the "more of the other big 3" the producer promised is still pending.  I don't see it before the holiday's.

I hope the writers get back to what they did best and not the mysteries.

[dcubed]

On 10/17/2018 at 11:43 AM, Scarlett45 said:

I suppose this can remind people of real life situations, where a parent was an alcoholic/dependent drinker, but parented through the addiction leaving kids to say “Mom/Dad had a problem but they loved us, we wish we could’ve had them without the addiction though.” Compared to people who’s addiction to alcohol took away their ability to parent or have any sort of emotional intimacy with another person. Does that make sense?

Yes, you have just summed up my childhood.  My dad was an alcoholic.  He did not miss work.  He did not physically or emotionally harm any of us.  He was funny.  He was loving.  But once he started drinking, he didn’t stop until bedtime. That meant he didn’t meet nighttime commitments so if one wanted or needed him to do things, you had to catch him during the day.  My mother was the most affected, not us, because he was an unreliable partner and poor with money management (he bought a lot of rounds at the bar).   But he was not mean or abusive.

[dcubed]

On 10/17/2018 at 12:29 PM, DFWGina said:

My dad was in ROTC in college and commissioned as an officer in the US Army in the late 60s.  He was eventually sent to Vietnam when I was a baby and fortunately came home safely after a tour.  He was in the reserves for a period of time afterward (not the same as the reserves today where you do weekends).    He has not spoken one word about Vietnam to his family (parents, wife, child, etc) and none of us would ever ask him given he doesn't share it freely.   I can only imagine it was a horrible time and something he doesn't wish to talk about.   I find that part about Jack's experience to be very realistic as it mirror's my dad's experience and mine as his child.

My dad was career military.  He served in Korea and two tours (the second voluntary) of Vietnam.  Except for one story, he never spoke of his time at war in terms of combat or the horrors he saw.  He spoke of places and things he saw, things he ate but that’s it.  I don’t think that’s so unusual as I’ve known WWII vets that were the same.

[dcubed]

On 10/17/2018 at 3:59 PM, Eureka said:

On 10/17/2018 at 12:18 PM, kili said:

His reaction to a child giving a fish to Jack was a bit extreme.

I actually thought it was going to be a grenade or bomb and obviously wouldn't have killed Jack but wounded him and killed others

I mentioned that my father never spoke of combat except for one story and here it is:

American soldiers would go into a village and sometimes stay for weeks/months.  It could be in Southern Vietnam, where there were many allies.  But what one didn’t know is if it was Viet Kong friendly.  My dad told the story of a young woman and son that came into the village on payday to sell Coca Cola to the soldiers.  He always told his men to not buy and not engage too much with the locals but they did anyway.  One day, the young woman detonated a body bomb/grenade that killed three soldiers in his unit and wounded three more.  Today we know of suicide bombers from stories in the Middle East but then, this type of warfare was new.  It was clear who the enemy was in WWI and WWII.  It was not so clear in Vietnam.  So that soldier’s extreme reaction rang very true to me.  They really didn’t know who to trust in a country where half wanted them them there and half wanted them gone/dead.