S03.E03 Katie Girls

[bybrandy]

15 minutes ago, himela said:

So in your opinion it's OK to condemn a kid (your own kid) to become an orphan really early in its life?

We all make choices in life.  I've lived enough years in my life to know that people die randomly every day.  Good people, bad people, old people, young people, healthy people, fat people.   Maybe Kate has the baby and that is what pushes her to get the surgery.  Maybe kate has the baby and lives another 50 years because statistics are an average they aren't the only outcome.  Would I make that decision?  I don't know.  But I know that being pro choice includes believing it is Kate and Toby's choice.  I hope for he best for their (fictional and theoretical child) but even with the best statistics in the world some kid is going to get hosed and some kid is going to hit the lottery.   Not my job to judge other peoples gambles.

[himela]

3 hours ago, albinerhawk said:

Οn another note, what did they mean that Beth had worked at the firm for 12 years. She was a SAHM in the first season, and I thought she had been for awhile. 

Thank you! I am not good at remembering things but I kinda remember that she persuaded Randall to become a stay at home dad so she goes to work in the first season. I don't get how it's said she is working in this firm for 12 years. Maybe they count in the years before she had the kids?

[bybrandy]

36 minutes ago, deaja said:

I was thinking the same thing. But I also thought it was strange that Jack’s reaction to her unexpected visit was to start doing dishes.

Because how else was Rebecca going to know he was the one?   I mean you marry the guy who just pitches in and does the dishes.  No, seriously.  That's why my grandma married my grandpa.  Because they had 2 dates and the first one he helped her do the dishes.    Then then he left town the next day.   Then he turned up two years later, took her out to dinner and announced they were getting married on Saturday.  And she said, "Well, I liked that he helped when it was my turn to do the cleaning up."   So, seriously.  Jack started stacking those dishes and I was like, "This is the moment when it is fated that they will marry."

[Neurochick]

21 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

Because how else was Rebecca going to know he was the one?   I mean you marry the guy who just pitches in and does the dishes.  No, seriously.  That's why my grandma married my grandpa.  Because they had 2 dates and the first one he helped her do the dishes.    Then then he left town the next day.   Then he turned up two years later, took her out to dinner and announced they were getting married on Saturday.  And she said, "Well, I liked that he helped when it was my turn to do the cleaning up."   So, seriously.  Jack started stacking those dishes and I was like, "This is the moment when it is fated that they will marry."

I too get the dishes.   Doing dishes is every day, it's ordinary.  A man saying, "I'm going to sweep you off your feet and take you to NYC" sounds nice, but what about day to day?  A lot of relationships that start off with sweeping romantic fantasy gestures crash and burn because they can't stand up to the everyday humdrum shit in life, like doing dishes.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I can't believe Rebecca didn't have any friends to talk to about her Jack/Other Guy dilemma and had to talk to Other Guy's mom! I can see how she would lose touch with friends AFTER marrying Jack (he's super needy) and having triplets but didn't she have any friends before Jack? No wonder she ended up with Miguel. Her only friend in life was through her husband. 

This episode I learned that Kate considers herself to be a singer. It would have been nice to see her actually sing or take voice lessons or something every once and a while so we knew she did something other than diet, yearn for a baby, flirt with Toby, mourn for her late father, prop up her brothers or fight with her mother.

I do not understand why Randall had to immediately fly back and see Chichi and her daughter. I also don't understand why Chichi told Randall that he had to take action. Holy presumption, Batman. Randall needs to learn how to take care of Beth, Tess, and Annie first instead of running around taking care of everyone else in the known universe ahead of them. I think Beth has been the "bass" for so long that Randall has taken her for granted.

I don't know why I like Kevin so much but I was happy for him at his premiere. I like that he got to be a super star for a night and even his family was supportive. His journey to find out more about Jack looks promising. Zoe is annoying but I guess he needs someone to bounce his thoughts off of.

[Jillybean]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

She did say she lost 20 (?) pounds.  Maybe 40. I'm not good with remembering numbers.

Yeah, she mentioned in a previous ep this season that she's lost 40 lbs, which was surprising because she doesn't look any different.

[ShadowFacts]

3 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I can't believe Rebecca didn't have any friends to talk to about her Jack/Other Guy dilemma and had to talk to Other Guy's mom! I can see how she would lose touch with friends AFTER marrying Jack (he's super needy) and having triplets but didn't she have any friends before Jack? No wonder she ended up with Miguel. Her only friend in life was through her husband. 

I would have never done that, it took a lot of chutzpah.  "Hey, I'm thinking of dumping your son, what do you think ma?"  I don't care how warm and approachable the woman is, you don't do that.  Boundaries. 

[qtpye]

7 hours ago, bybrandy said:

It was Deja that called.  Why Deja wasn't in school in NJ when this happened?  Whole other question but it was certainly Deja who called.

 

12 hours ago, jmonique said:

Yeah, I was going to ask, did unemployed Randall really just abandon his wife and three kids to jump on a plane, travel across the ENTIRE country, finally apologize to the sister his self-centered ass wanted to apologize to, then BAIL on Kate and Toby to go play Superman to more strays and complete strangers?

DID I REALLY JUST WATCH THAT?

 

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

While I understand that Randall's feelings were hurt about what Kate said, I was on her side in their argument. We each get to make our own choices, no matter how risky they are. If Kate wants to undergo IVF, that's her choice, just like if Randall wants to quit his job and then buy a building, that's his choice. Even when the people we love do things that we think are stupid or even potentially dangerous, it's not up to us to dictate how other people live their lives. Unless the other person is breaking the law or mentally incompetent, there is nothing for you to do about it.

What really got me was that he was so offended that she didn't consider adoption as her first choice. Again, NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE. And as Kate pointed out, adoption wasn't Randall's first choice either so he was in no position to judge her for that. Adoption can be a very lengthy (and expensive) process so if you're going to sink a lot of money into trying to get a kid, I can understand why some people would try IVF first. Yes, there is a health risk for Kate with IVF, but again, people make less than safe choices all the time. If you want to jump out of an airplane or ride a motorcycle instead of a car, your family can bitch and moan all they want but they can't actually stop you from doing it. I think the Pearsons need to get over their belief that other people need their permission to do stuff.

But hey, points to the Pearsons for waiting until the movie ended to have a big fight! Baby steps, people.

I was initially on the fence with Alan. He seemed like a nice person who genuinely liked Rebecca because she chose to take woodshop instead of home ec, and I liked that. But when he freaked out about her possibly going to Los Angeles, I was like nope, I'm done with you, Alan. Alan's mom was awesome though (hee, does this mean that Malcolm in the Middle is Alan's brother?).

I continue to love Beth. I loved that she checked to see if Randall had spoken to Kate and then she specifically asked if he had apologized and pointed out that he overstepped in this situation and that he has trouble apologizing to his siblings. I also love that she, Miguel, and Toby (what was the name they came up with at the bar?) are still in touch on their own as the non-Big Three.

I really liked the conversation that Randall and Toby were having too. It's not often that we get to see men openly discussing their depression.

I totally support Kevin wanting to learn more about Jack's time in Vietnam. There are some people who have a moment where they realize that they want to know more about their family tree and it usually doesn't happen until adulthood so I hope Kevin doesn't beat himself up too much about not asking Jack more questions when he was younger. I want to believe that Zoe is truly being supportive of Kevin's quest because it's important to him, but I suspect that she is only interested because she thinks that she can make a documentary about Movie Star Kevin Pearson's Search for His Father's Past. I also didn't like her snotty attitude when he invited her to join him for some of the press stuff he had to do. Even if you think it's vapid, there's no need to say that to his face. Just be polite and say "no, thank you."

 

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I was sort of shocked to see who Rebecca was telling all that to.  Poor lady, did she actually tell Rebeca she should go see Jack and find out if the feeling was still there?  Sheesh. 

I wondered if Toby could go back on his meds, too.

The last time I had anesthesia I had several long dream/hallucination things that were like short plays starring young me. Quite interesting they were.  I wonder if it's something like the memory retrieval of deep hypnosis?  I woke up to my doctor calling me back with the same sort of frantic insistence that Kate's doctor had.  They kept me overnight for being so late to return. 

 I love Beth, too, and I'm so glad they're going to give her a real story.  Last year I was afraid they were going to make her into a Felicia Rashad character where everything she said was an overly clever, flippant speech.  I like Beth wise but still human.  How sweet of her to let Randall debrief about his sister and other problems before telling him about her job loss.  I actually felt such a wave of sympathy for her boss, having to fire someone so beautiful and nice.

That single mother can stop lecturing Randall anytime now.

This episode reminded me of why I love the show.  Everyone was so supportive of each other you could really feel that family love.

 

6 hours ago, Soup333 said:

They could have easily cut the scene with Randall and the bitchy mom at the hospital. It added NOTHING and he would have chosen to run anyway if he'd have just talked to her on the phone. She could have said her little line about people making promises and not doing anything and it all would have ended the same. 

And I hate that woman more every time they show her. What is SHE doing for her community? All she's done is complain. Randall helped with the rec center but he didn't get to know them. Now her daughter's attacked and she complains when he promises to help her again. What is her purpose other than to be a whiny bitch and spur him on this boring mission to save his dead father's adopted community? Let HER run for office and save her damn self. Jesus.

I hate to say it but I feel the same. I did feel something when Kate told Randall flying to see her was the most dad thing ever but then they ruined it by having him zoom back home for these random people I care nothing about.

I would enjoy this more than if Randall runs, but I'm still not down with this storyline. I would love to see him stop what he's doing and support her for once and I'm hoping and praying since they inserted that William scene that eventually they get to that place.

 

6 hours ago, chocolatine said:

No, Randall, Jack did not "literally" save your life the day you were born. The fireman did, there was a whole freaking episode about that. Oh, and maybe next time, before launching into a Dramatic Pearson Monologue(tm), ask your wife how she's doing first.

We saw it last season when everyone flew to California to support Kevin in rehab, but only Rebecca and the Big Three were allowed to be in the therapy session. Beth, Toby, and Miguel went to a bar and bonded over being spouses of Pearsons.

Seriously. What does she expect Randall to do, single-handedly eliminate crime in that neighborhood overnight?

Yes, I'm really curious how they went from spontaneously taking a cross-country road trip for Rebecca to pursue her dream to the super-traditional gender roles after the kids were born.

Zoe is a pretentious twit and I loved that Terry Gross was completely indifferent to her.

 

4 hours ago, topanga said:

Zoe is a heartbreaker, according to Beth. She’s probably very used to using people to get what she wants. But she’s still gorgeous. She and Kevin together fill my TV screen with pretty.

And Terry Gross—who is tiny—needed to fill dead air and was coming at the question from different angles, trying to jog a memory in Kevin’s mind. She’s actually very good at that. People often say during an interview with her that “I’d never thought about that before” or “I’ve never shared that with anyone before.” With Kevin, she finally moved on and mentioned that war veterans are often not able to talk about their experiences with anyone except other vets. 

For once, I was interested in the early Jack-Rebecca scenes. Usually I fast forward through them. They had real chemistry when they were chatting in the grocery store and Jack said he wanted a family and home life that we’re completely different from the way he grew up. 

And yes, Alan’s moustache was authentic for the era, but it looked fake—and poorly attached. I kept waiting for Rebecca to reach over and rip it off. 

 

3 hours ago, albinerhawk said:

I was actually confused by this episode. It seemed to me that the other guy (forgot his name) was actually more supportive of Rebecca and her dreams than Jack. She asked Jack about his dream, and he had a picture of a happy home life. Meanwhile the other guy seemed supportive of Rebecca all the way from high school when she decided to go a different way. Later it seems that Rebecca pushed the pause button on singing career to raise the big 3. Kind of takes away from the St Jack look we usually see.

On another note, what did they mean that Beth had worked at the firm for 12 years. She was a SAHM in the first season, and I thought she had been for awhile. 

 

1 hour ago, jmonique said:

I was so blown away by Randall's Superhero Martyr act last night that I forgot the rest of my thoughts:

I think this is the best work of Milo's career, but I wish Jack could have been put to rest after the season 2 finale, for good. Randall's mythologizing of Jack as a superman, Kevin chasing after the ghost of Jack in Vietnam nearly five decades later, and the show diving into how Jack and Rebecca sealed the deal, when we know how things ended, all smack of attempts to keep him on the show and keep the characters in an arrested development in regards to a father they lost three decades ago. I get that loss is hard, but these characters need to be allowed to move forward and grow, and I'm starting to doubt that will ever happen as long as Milo is still on the show.

Back to my problems with Randall: He's not as much like Jack as they'd like us to believe, considering Jack never would have abandoned his three kids or his sibling to go play superhero to a bitchy stranger. I'm still dumbfounded that Randall swooped in, declared he would be there to provide a hand for anything Toby and Kate needed, said a few words to his sister once she finally clawed her way out from under the anesthesia AND THEN IMMEDIATELY BOUNCED. One of the first things Jack would have done upon returning from a trip was to ask how the kids and Rebecca were; Randall, meanwhile, rolls in and it's all about him, as Beth takes a backseat yet again.

I hope they address how hard it is to be married to a "Randall". When Randall gets to play Superman it is up to Beth to pick up the slack including taking care of three daughters and working full time before she got fired. Also, since Randall thinks everything he does is selfless it puts Beth in the position of being a terrible person because she won't agree to Randall's latest project of the moment. What if when Randall wanted to adopt Beth quite reasonably says, "Look Randall I have enough to deal with including my job, two little girls, your former crackhead father, your brother who is sleeping in my office, my anxiety-prone husband who has already had a couple of breakdowns, and not to mention all the other drama that is often provided by your family." Randall would look at her like a monster who is "just being selfish" As a woman of color I hate to mention the rebooted Roseanne show but they had a storyline where a man abandoned his family to go build houses for the poor in third world countries. The wife was left holding the bag by having to raise two children as a single mother and look like a bit of a jerk complaining about it. 

1 hour ago, himela said:

The worst thing about this show is that I get jealous of how these three people feel about their dad. I can't relate, sadly. It makes me wonder how my life would be if I actually had a caring dad who didn't make my life miserable.

I hate that it is such a trope that girls are always "the apple of their father's eyes" and special princesses. My father did not feel that way about me and it often makes me think I am some sort of freak. My father never worshipped the ground I walked on and thought I was wonder just for existing and only deserved the best "just because". I guess it also served to not make me entitled or spoiled. My father would also kick my butt if I ever spoke to my mother the way young Kate talks to Rebecca. However, my mother did not think she had to be a punching bag for my insecurities so she would have never stood for it in the first place.

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

I would have never done that, it took a lot of chutzpah.  "Hey, I'm thinking of dumping your son, what do you think ma?"  I don't care how warm and approachable the woman is, you don't do that.  Boundaries. 

I think it is funny that Rebecca had two men who were convinced that "She was the one" and wanted nothing more than to spend their lives with her. Jack did not seem to have anything else going for him and might have turned to a life of crime had it not been for her "saving him" with her awesomeness, but bad mustache yuppie could not forget about her for three years even with a great job in London. Yes, no no one's mother is going to praise you for dumping their lovesick son and be like "you go girl" about it.

[Dejana]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

And they better not implant 4 or 5 to make Kate an octomom. I thought I had read that it was now illegal to implant more than two, but I think that may have been in Canada.  But, seriously, a multi-birth would just really up the health risks to Kate.

Embryos can be frozen; if there are more than two, I seriously doubt they would all be implanted at once. 

[himela]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I hate that it is such a trope that girls are always "the apple of their father's eyes" and special princesses. My father did not feel that way about me and it often makes me think I am some sort of freak. My father never worshipped the ground I walked on and thought I was wonder just for existing and only deserved the best "just because". I guess it also served to not make me entitled or spoiled. My father would also kick my butt if I ever spoke to my mother the way young Kate talks to Rebecca. However, my mother did not think she had to be a punching bag for my insecurities so she would have never stood for it in the first place.

 

Well my dad was an alcoholic and I had a really bad childhood, he was always fighting with my mom and I would cry in my bed every time he was drunk. So yeah, I have no idea of fathers who treat their daughters as princesses. Seeing there are women who adore their fathers is really weird for me and it sometimes makes me jealous. I think this is human behavior.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, Dejana said:

Embryos can be frozen; if there are more than two, I seriously doubt they would all be implanted at once. 

I know they can be frozen, but in the not too distant past, they would implant 4 to 6 embryos to increase at least 1 taking hold.  That's how you end up with Octomom and Kate plus Eight.  And, before you tell me, yes, I know that neither of those women gave birth to octuplets.

[Neurochick]

16 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I hope they address how hard it is to be married to a "Randall". When Randall gets to play Superman it is up to Beth to pick up the slack including taking care of three daughters and working full time before she got fired. Also, since Randall thinks everything he does is selfless it puts Beth in the position of being a terrible person because she won't agree to Randall's latest project of the moment. What if when Randall wanted to adopt Beth quite reasonably says, "Look Randall I have enough to deal with including my job, two little girls, your former crackhead father, your brother who is sleeping in my office, my anxiety-prone husband who has already had a couple of breakdowns, and not to mention all the other drama that is often provided by your family." Randall would look at her like a monster who is "just being selfish" As a woman of color I hate to mention the rebooted Roseanne show but they had a storyline where a man abandoned his family to go build houses for the poor in third world countries. The wife was left holding the bag by having to raise two children as a single mother and look like a bit of a jerk complaining about it. 

This kind of reminds me of the song from "Hair" called "Easy to be Hard."

I wonder what Randall was like when Beth met him.

[dcubed]

10 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

Sometimes I wonder if Beth will reach her breaking point with Randall. 

Did you see her playing with her wedding ring while he was telling her he wanted to run for office?  I don’t think it’s a coincidence since in the William flashback, she made some statement about wondering why she got married (or something along those lines).  

[sigmaforce86]

16 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

"Hi Katiegirl."  The way he said it.  The way he was looking at her.  His eyes twinkling.  His smile.  I think I melted.

Tear Up moment #1 of the night.  The second one came when Randall said he was sorry at Kate's bedside

15 hours ago, Eureka said:

Now that Toby has disclosed that the world isn’t good when he’s off his meds, he needs to get back on, stat! Sigh.

The show likes to play with timelines so there's no way to be sure but I feel like we're getting close to his "crash" if we go by the finale scenes from last year.  If Kevin is gearing up to go to Vietnam and they showed him on the plane with Zoe in those scenes they can we assume that Toby in bed immobile with depression was occurring at or near the same time?  And if so they're getting pretty close to that trip.  But really the way they fool us with now vs then vs later there's no way to know for sure.

14 hours ago, Pallas said:

I think if anyone runs for office, it will be Beth. She has the expertise in the field, the political talent and the charisma. And the time is right in the real world. Or maybe Philly needs a hungry city planner with a big stake in the North Side. 

I was thinking the same thing - and it would be a far better idea, Beth has the smarts and a personality that's more open to talking an negotiation where Randall is pretty much a bulldozer (as Beth pointed out when he ran out to fly to CA)

1 hour ago, bybrandy said:

Because how else was Rebecca going to know he was the one?   I mean you marry the guy who just pitches in and does the dishes.  No, seriously.  That's why my grandma married my grandpa.  Because they had 2 dates and the first one he helped her do the dishes.    Then then he left town the next day.   Then he turned up two years later, took her out to dinner and announced they were getting married on Saturday.  And she said, "Well, I liked that he helped when it was my turn to do the cleaning up."   So, seriously.  Jack started stacking those dishes and I was like, "This is the moment when it is fated that they will marry."

Older (Grandparent age) friends had a story like this; he was a surgical resident & they were supposed to meet for dinner but he was over an hour late because he was on call and there was an emergency.  He found her waiting patiently at a table in the restaurant reading a book she'd brought "just in case". He said all his other girlfriends had gotten mad if he was ever late & they couldn't understand why he couldn't just walk away like it's a 9-5 job.  He always said the minute he saw her with that book he knew she was the one.

ETA:  With Kate in her minimal operation makeup there was a huge resemblance between her and Hannah Zeile, if somebody had told me those two were sisters or cousins or in some way related in real life I would have believed it based on the scenes they had together in this episode 

Small prop department error in the Jack/Rebecca grocery store scene - the top shelf behind Jack was loaded with those large plastic single serve cereal cups.  There's no way those would have been available back then, if anything it should have been the small cardboard boxes that usually came in a multi pack.

Edited October 10, 2018 by sigmaforce86

[dcubed]

13 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

Rebecca walking, most likely with conviction, from the home ec class to the shop class.  That was cool.  Wish they had shown us that - and a guy passing her in the hall, also walking with conviction, from the shop class to the home ec class.  But that was the 70's.  Baby steps.  But it was cool that she did that.  It wasn't that she had a talent for either one - she just didn't want to become her mother.

(I added the bold in the quote).  Except she really did in many ways....no career, a mom and a housewife (not that there is anything wrong with that), no apparent friends.  It’s so interesting and to me, very true to life.  I always said I wouldn’t be like my mom but darn it, I am despite my best efforts.  The difference is that today, I can appreciate some of those acquired characteristics more.

[mtlchick]

15 hours ago, Eureka said:

Thanks for the spelling, I knew the c was somewhere else. Lol. I saw her in the opening credits but if I hadn’t, I’m not sure I would have recognized her with the gray hair.

Her dimples are a dead give away for me. 

[dcubed]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Seriously. What does she expect Randall to do, single-handedly eliminate crime in that neighborhood overnight?

Preach.  If he’s successful, my city could use his super powers to eliminate our 40+ shootings per week.

[topanga]

2 hours ago, Lovecat said:

How in the hell can Sterling K. Brown make rainbow trout and whipped cream sound so damn sensuous?  He is a truly gifted man; his wife is a lucky woman ;)

Sterling K Brown is sensual AF. There was one scene in this episode where he was gently stroking a coffee cup, and I was like dayyumm, can I be that coffee cup for a minute?

[dcubed]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe her boss is a racist douchebag, Beth sues the company and walks away with 10 million dollars.

My first thought.  Firing someone is tough, I’ve done it, but he looked so nervous, like he was hiding something.  And the HR lady shoved those severance papers in front of her so fast, like they didn’t want her to read what she was signing or ask too many questions.  I

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, dcubed said:

My first thought.  Firing someone is tough, I’ve done it, but he looked so nervous, like he was hiding something.  And the HR lady shoved those severance papers in front of her so fast, like they didn’t want her to read what she was signing or ask too many questions.  I

Maybe it had something to do with that proposal she had to work on the day of the premiere.

[Soup333]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe it had something to do with that proposal she had to work on the day of the premiere.

Her job owns the rights to that, right? It’s probably a winner. 

[topanga]

16 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

Enjoying the Kevin stuff. 

I forgot to mention my joy at seeing young Kevin. That actor is so adorable. I like that Kevin has always been a little tortured, even when he was the popular kid that everyone liked. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I would have never done that, it took a lot of chutzpah.  "Hey, I'm thinking of dumping your son, what do you think ma?"  I don't care how warm and approachable the woman is, you don't do that.  Boundaries. 

Yeah, I often think the younger Pearsons are all pretty self-centered and don't think about others' feelings enough.  Last night I thought "Oh, that's where they get it."

1 hour ago, dcubed said:

Did you see her playing with her wedding ring while he was telling her he wanted to run for office?  I don’t think it’s a coincidence since in the William flashback, she made some statement about wondering why she got married (or something along those lines).  

Didn't William say to her specifically in their talk that when the day came that she needed Randall to be the one carrying the relationship, she needed to speak up and not sit there twisting her ring and wondering why she got married?

 

36 minutes ago, dcubed said:

My first thought.  Firing someone is tough, I’ve done it, but he looked so nervous, like he was hiding something.  And the HR lady shoved those severance papers in front of her so fast, like they didn’t want her to read what she was signing or ask too many questions.  I

I took it more like he didn't want to fire her, but had to make cuts and HR was there to make sure he didn't say anything he wasn't supposed to. Like the more reasons you go into, the worse it can be.  That's how it was one season on Grey's Anatomy, so clearly that is realistic. ;)  I also wondered if Beth has been pursuing more passion projects that she feels benefit the community and her co-workers were more focused on the highly profitable jobs.

 

[PRgal]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Interesting, so far it's only eggs and not embryos.  I don't know how long that fertilization process takes in IVF, maybe there is a waiting period?  If so, why did Toby have to 'produce' on the spot?  Drama?

Yes.  It bugged me a bit when Kate said "embryo retrieval."  Embryos aren't retrieved, they're transferred.  And assuming they're looking at transferring them fresh, Kate would have an embryo transfer in five days.  This is, of course, if embryos are even created.  Sometimes, they don't fertilize, or they fertilize and then don't survive.  Some people transfer day 3 embryos (my soon-to-be-born son was from a 3 day embryo, but it was a frozen transfer and the embryo was frozen some eight years ago.  Day 3s were more common back then - at least at the clinic we used).  

 

I hope the writers have researched IVF (or ICSI - this is when they pick the "best" sperm to fertilize rather than letting them swim in) enough to be accurate about it.  

[Neurochick]

For me, the problem with this show is, once we found out Jack was dead and found out how he died, I felt like Jack's story was over.  I don't get why we have to keep seeing him.

[Lady Calypso]

22 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

For me, the problem with this show is, once we found out Jack was dead and found out how he died, I felt like Jack's story was over.  I don't get why we have to keep seeing him.

I ask the same thing about William. It's because the show producers like the actors, I'm guessing. It's the only plausible explanation as to why Jack and William keep getting shoehorned into episodes they don't need to be in.

[TV Diva Queen]

1 hour ago, dcubed said:

Preach.  If he’s successful, my city could use his super powers to eliminate our 40+ shootings per week.

Isn't Kanye coming to help us with that?  Assuming you're from Chicago that is...

[Sharyn]

17 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

"Hi Katiegirl."  The way he said it.  The way he was looking at her.  His eyes twinkling.  His smile.  I think I melted.

Yessssss!  But I was so disappointed when she didn't hug him.  Whattttt?  She's missed him desperately and didn't hug him?  That's what I miss most about my Dad - his enveloping hugs that soothe and console me.  Kate....why didn't you hug your Dad when you had the chance, even in your imagination?

[Dejana]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I know they can be frozen, but in the not too distant past, they would implant 4 to 6 embryos to increase at least 1 taking hold.  That's how you end up with Octomom and Kate plus Eight.  And, before you tell me, yes, I know that neither of those women gave birth to octuplets.

The Octomom's doctor was widely condemned by more reputable experts in the industry (I think she claimed he only transferred 5-6 embryos and some naturally split, but still) and that was nearly 10 years ago. Kate Gosselin didn't have IVF but took drugs that caused her to ovulate more eggs than normal. It's how she and Jon had their older twins, so they figured that at the most, they'd end up with two more kids. 

The onscreen fertility doctor is taking a chance with Kate already, but she's been presented as someone ethical so far, not likely the type to implant a bunch of embryos to improve the odds. She's concerned about Kate's weight as it is, and a triplet+ pregnancy at that? Although, didn't Fogelman initially have the idea of the show as a movie about octuplets? Hmmmm....

Seriously, I predict Kate/Toby will have an unsuccessful round or two of IVF before gestational surrogacy is broached. 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Dejana said:

The onscreen fertility doctor is taking a chance with Kate already, but she's been presented as someone ethical so far, not likely the type to implant a bunch of embryos to improve the odds. She's concerned about Kate's weight as it is, and a triplet+ pregnancy at that? Although, didn't Fogelman initially have the idea of the show as a movie about octuplets? Hmmmm....

This is what I'm saying. Show might think it would be cute for Kate to have triplets.

[TV Diva Queen]

43 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Her job owns the rights to that, right? It’s probably a winner. 

But if they had plans to fire her while she was doing the proposal and they use the proposal and if Beth can prove it, it's her property.  (FTW on the run on sentence)  

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I know they can be frozen, but in the not too distant past, they would implant 4 to 6 embryos to increase at least 1 taking hold.  That's how you end up with Octomom and Kate plus Eight.  And, before you tell me, yes, I know that neither of those women gave birth to octuplets.

Neither of those women had IVF either.  They both got fertility drugs to stimulate multiple eggs at once and then either got artificial insemination or had intercourse the old fashioned way to conceive.  Whenever you see someone with higher order multiples (more than triplets), it is almost never an in vitro pregnancy.

Most in vitro practitioners won't place more than 2-3 embryos in the uterus in any given cycle.  When you have a couple who is going through the pain, expense and stress of IVF; the last thing you want to do is risk giving them a litter of babies at once which greatly decreases the chances of having a healthy child and often leads to difficult moral decisions like selective termination or extremely premature babies with a very low chance of survival.

[TV Diva Queen]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

This is what I'm saying. Show might think it would be cute for Kate to have triplets.

OMG - I didn't even consider that.  She can't handle herself, let alone a baby, let alone 3!!!  God I hope they don't do that

[Arcadiasw]

1 hour ago, dcubed said:

Did you see her playing with her wedding ring while he was telling her he wanted to run for office?  I don’t think it’s a coincidence since in the William flashback, she made some statement about wondering why she got married (or something along those lines).  

Yep and that has me wondering if she's reaching her limit. 

 

22 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I ask the same thing about William. It's because the show producers like the actors, I'm guessing. It's the only plausible explanation as to why Jack and William keep getting shoehorned into episodes they don't need to be in.

Agreed. The show got a lot of critical and fan praise over William. Instead of letting his story be over with the Tennesee episode, they'll milking it to the point of ad nauseam 

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, himela said:

Well my dad was an alcoholic and I had a really bad childhood, he was always fighting with my mom and I would cry in my bed every time he was drunk. So yeah, I have no idea of fathers who treat their daughters as princesses. Seeing there are women who adore their fathers is really weird for me and it sometimes makes me jealous. I think this is human behavior.

If there is anything that I envy about "daddy's girls" in real life and in fiction is that they always seem to be extremely confident around men. It sort of like that had dad wrapped around their finger and the cycle continues with guys seemingly going gaga over them. I would put Kate in that category because she never seemed to have much in the way of romantics issues beyond no one could measure up to "Jack".

[Soup333]

6 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

Agreed. The show got a lot of critical and fan praise over William. Instead of letting his story be over with the Tennesee episode, they'll milking it to the point of ad nauseam 

Memphis. To date that was the best episode of this show and the one of the best episodes of any drama I’ve ever seen. 

[ShadowFacts]

25 minutes ago, qtpye said:

If there is anything that I envy about "daddy's girls" in real life and in fiction is that they always seem to be extremely confident around men. It sort of like that had dad wrapped around their finger and the cycle continues with guys seemingly going gaga over them. I would put Kate in that category because she never seemed to have much in the way of romantics issues beyond no one could measure up to "Jack".

I think Kate is rather unpleasant and dysfunctional and some of that might be seen as being rooted in how Jack treated her.  He wasn't doing her any favors with how he coddled her.  In real life there is a healthy medium between a distant or abusive father and one who dotes and treats his daughter like a princess.  And I think she was, in her twenties, in an unhealthy relationship with a married guy.  She's lucky with Toby so far, but he has a lot of similarities with Jack, so we'll see how that plays out. 

[Biggie B]

31 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

Did you see her playing with her wedding ring while he was telling her he wanted to run for office?  I don’t think it’s a coincidence since in the William flashback, she made some statement about wondering why she got married (or something along those lines).  

She didn't say that. William was instructing her to speak up - to NOT be the bass, for once, to be the trumpet - and he said, "And don't be sitting there playing with your wedding rings wondering why you even married the man..." (paraphrase).  And while Randall was talking, and she was playing with the rings, she absolutely remembered William saying that, and that's when she told Randall she'd been laid off. 

[willco]

1 hour ago, dcubed said:

My first thought.  Firing someone is tough, I’ve done it, but he looked so nervous, like he was hiding something.  And the HR lady shoved those severance papers in front of her so fast, like they didn’t want her to read what she was signing or ask too many questions.  I

Well, that was John Billingsley... I've seen him in a ton of things and he plays both good and bad guys very well. He did an episode of the old show "Cold Case" years ago where he played a bad guy and he was chilling. And he did seem awfully nervous, but that could just be because he knows that firing a woman of color over a white woman might look sketchy no matter if the reason is valid. I've had to fire a few people over the years, I'm glad I've never had to do it in that situation !

[PRgal]

You know, when that old guy wanted to speak with Beth, I thought it was going to lead to harassment/assault until I saw the HR lady in the same room.  Maybe it's "woman instinct," but Creepy (Old) Guy + woman on TV = harassment/assault to me.

[albinerhawk]

2 hours ago, dcubed said:

Did you see her playing with her wedding ring while he was telling her he wanted to run for office?  I don’t think it’s a coincidence since in the William flashback, she made some statement about wondering why she got married (or something along those lines).  

I feel like Beth gave Randall sometime after losing William and quitting his job to find himself again. That was season 2. Now I think the time has come for Randall to grow up and realize that while idealism and dreams are great he has to balance that with his own personal responsibilities. I'm thinking Beth is hoping that Randall realizes that himself without her coming across as the one spoiling his fun.

[hookedontv]

While I’ve always loved Kevin, I’m finding it harder and harder to like Kate or Randall, even though I want to like them! They are very selfish in different ways IMO. Kate is outright selfish, meaning it’s all about her-her weight, her grief, her angst. It’s as if no one else has it as bad or hard as she has had. Grief isn’t a contest, there’s no trophy for the person who grieves the most. 

Randall is selfish in the way he’s always giving. He first comes across as being very generous with his time and money, but then you realize it all turns back to him. He just can’t listen to Deja and be supportive. He always turnsnit around to how he’s been through XYZ too. He’s wrapped up in the rec center-when he got the call in LA and said I’ll be in the next plane, I assumed Beth called him about her job. Seems like he puts others before his own immediate family. End rant. 

[Dejana]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

This is what I'm saying. Show might think it would be cute for Kate to have triplets.

I wouldn't be surprised if she did end up with multiples but not triplets in the strictest sense, more like a combo of overlapping pregnancies between Kate and a surrogate. I agree, the writers would think it was precious if one of the Big Three had a big three of their own.

FYI, Nadya Suleman (Octomom) had IVF but the doctor was expelled from the American Society for Reproductive Medicine:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleman_octuplets

Edited October 10, 2018 by Dejana

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

If there is anything that I envy about "daddy's girls" in real life and in fiction is that they always seem to be extremely confident around men. It sort of like that had dad wrapped around their finger and the cycle continues with guys seemingly going gaga over them. I would put Kate in that category because she never seemed to have much in the way of romantics issues beyond no one could measure up to "Jack".

What about that married man she was having sex with in one of the flashbacks.  I think that was because she thought she didn't deserve any better.

[biakbiak]

6 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

He didn’t have enough money in his pocket right then and there. Didn’t he just happen to go to the bar for a beer or two and then he saw Rebecca sing and asked her out for that night. The date was spontaneous. You couldn’t just Tap the Mac back then.

Given that the reason he first saw her was because he was so desperate for money that he was going to rob the place, I am pretty certain he didn’t have much more.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, hookedontv said:

Randall is selfish in the way he’s always giving. He first comes across as being very generous with his time and money, but then you realize it all turns back to him. He just can’t listen to Deja and be supportive. He always turnsnit around to how he’s been through XYZ too. He’s wrapped up in the rec center-when he got the call in LA and said I’ll be in the next plane, I assumed Beth called him about her job. Seems like he puts others before his own immediate family. End rant. 

Yes I understand what you’re saying. I like all three of them for different reasons, but I agree about Randall. He doesn’t give unselfishly or appropriately. It’s often “I will give to validate myself/earn your love etc.” His priorities are often out of wack. He’s not malicious or cruel in any way but his attention isn’t centered where it should be (no human is perfect but I think he misses the mark a lot of the time). Beth grounds him, he needs to anchor her right now. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Scarlett45
Auto correct is not my friend.

[hookedontv]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I understand what you’re saying. I like all three of them for different reasons, but I agree about Randall. He doesn’t give unselfishly or appropriately. It’s often “I will give to validate myself/earn your love etc.” His priorities are often out of wacky. He’s not malicious or cruel in anyway but his attention isn’t centered where it should be (no human is perfect but I think he misses the mark a lot of the time). Beth grounds him, he needs to anchor her right now. 

Exactly. Well said. 

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

The show got a lot of critical and fan praise over William.

The actor won an Emmy for the role. I'm guessing he'll keep popping up. (I don't mind, I love him. The scene where Beth gets the postcard from him and he calls her "my dearest Beth, the daughter I never had" gets me every time.)

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

What about that married man she was having sex with in one of the flashbacks.  I think that was because she thought she didn't deserve any better.

Yeah. She didn't know he was married until after (RIGHT after, IIRC) she slept with him and he immediately got up to leave - she figured it out and called him on it, but she wasn't even mad; more resigned. She also told Toby that for a long time, she thought very little of herself. It's always seemed to me that her romantic/sex life was "I'll take what I can get" before she met Toby.

[CleoCaesar]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think Kate is rather unpleasant and dysfunctional and some of that might be seen as being rooted in how Jack treated her.  He wasn't doing her any favors with how he coddled her.  In real life there is a healthy medium between a distant or abusive father and one who dotes and treats his daughter like a princess.

From the looks of it, Jack's version of treating her like a princess involved shoveling ice cream in her mouth any time Kate was upset. No wonder she ended up with food issues AND daddy issues. Every episode I wonder what Toby saw in her.

[ams1001]

12 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

1. Alan's mom was awesome though (hee, does this mean that Malcolm in the Middle is Alan's brother?).
2. I really liked the conversation that Randall and Toby were having too. It's not often that we get to see men openly discussing their depression.

  

1. Cameo by Frankie Muniz, plz? (He's busy with Dancing with the Stars Junior, I guess.)
2. Did anyone start singing Men in Tights ("We're MEN, Manly Men!") during that scene? Just me?

 

7 hours ago, Lovecat said:

I had 2 surgeries under general anesthesia this past summer, and don't remember a damn thing until I woke up in recovery.  I feel like I missed out on something.  Then again, I managed to slide off the table and land on the floor during one of my procedures, so it's probably best I have no recollection of what happened while I was out!  Some psychedelic dreams would have been nice, though.

I've had anesthesia a few times and it was just...time that didn't exist to me. When I was 15 I had minor ear surgery and apparently I ripped the IV out of my hand. Don't remember that but I vaguely remember a little dried blood on the back of my hand when I woke up in recovery.

 

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

 but it was a frozen transfer and the embryo was frozen some eight years ago.  

Off topic, really, but it just boggles my mind a bit that you can freeze an embryo for eight years, thaw it out, put it in the right place, and it just continues on like nothing happened. Biology is a fascinating thing.