S05.E01: Nora

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

There are only a few ways they can write to explain the relationship between Iris and Nora and none of it bodes particularly well for the ladies. Either Nora is a turd and her mum did nothing wrong which makes her ungrateful or we will be subject to a storyline where Iris fails as a mum in some way. Since I think Iris could/should be a great mum I find this most annoying. Especially when Barry gets idolised. I have always liked Barry, Grant makes him very likeable but this storyline for Iris is shit! 

 

54 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That makes it more likely for him to be the favorite parent.  He's a great hero who literally has a museum dedicated to him, his various friends and family no doubt had nothing but praise for him, and he's the only person in Central City who is capable of being a CSI.  No one could compare to that!  It's very easy for a kid to project nothing but positive feelings onto someone like that, and Nora comes across as very kid-like.

Maybe it's a This is Us situation where the daughter resents her mom for being too perfect and beautiful?  Nora is a cute, dork who screws up like Barry and she has this mom who is glamorous (cuz Iris is definitely still a hottie in her 40s).

[UNOSEZ]

37 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Also, wanted to mention that I don't think Nora was telling the truth that it was just her and her mom growing up. That screamed "lie" to me. I think Nora is hiding a sibling who doesn't agree with her time-travel high jinks.

Might could be... 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I haven’t watched yet, but must.get.this.off.my.chest.:

Spoiler

Her name is supposed to be DAWN. And she’s supposed to have a twin brother, DON!!!???

22 hours ago, ursula said:

 ☹️I knew it was too good to be true. I literally did not miss him. 

The recurring versions of HW is a gag that should die but the show clings onto for some weird reason.

Having Cavanaugh play different versions of Wells was a condition for him to be a regular cast member as the show wanted him for more than just the first season.

20 hours ago, adora721 said:

Also, wanted to mention that I don't think Nora was telling the truth that it was just her and her mom growing up. That screamed "lie" to me. I think Nora is hiding a sibling who doesn't agree with her time-travel high jinks.

Spoiler

You mean Don Norton??

[shantown]

I rather enjoyed the episode and until the flashback voiceover thing with Thawne!Wells I didn't even realize there hadn't been any version of Wells on screen yet. And I thought the show was better for it. I get that everyone seems to like TC behind the scenes and the first few twists of having different Wells' appear was fine, but the show has long since moved past needing to have a Wells as a leader (Iris), as a scientist (Caitlin), as an inventor (Cisco), as a sort of gruff older mentor (Joe), or as any sort of comic relief or hijinks (Ralph). The Arrowverse shows have a habit of hanging on to a character well past the end of their usefulness because they like the actor and this is a big example of that.

[Diapason Untuned]

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I don't find the Nora is frosty to Iris storyline engaging at all. It's another crap thing to throw at Iris and Barry once again gets to be the adored parent even though he's not actually around. I am hoping the show will surprise me with a compelling reason as to why Nora is such a turd to her mum but my expectations are low at this stage.

There are only a few ways they can write to explain the relationship between Iris and Nora and none of it bodes particularly well for the ladies. Either Nora is a turd and her mum did nothing wrong which makes her ungrateful or we will be subject to a storyline where Iris fails as a mum in some way. Since I think Iris could/should be a great mum I find this most annoying. Especially when Barry gets idolised. I have always liked Barry, Grant makes him very likeable but this storyline for Iris is shit! 

I think we're going to get an "Iris is super overprotective" storyline and this is what causes the fracture in their relationship. You won't need to worry about the show making Iris look bad.

[dkb]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Caitlins dad is probably alive and evil. Cant say that I care very much, but at least its not a new love interest to turn on her!

I don't remember if I read the name of the big bad this year, but what if it ends up being Caitlin's dad? The show would totally pull something like that. 

I loved the episode, all the West-Allen family stuff was great. Cisco and Caitlin were great, and Ralph wasn't too annoying.

Edited October 10, 2018 by dkb

[Quark]

Wonderful premier. Really like Nora.

The only criticism I have is that I wish there was more Cecile.

[TDT]

18 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Hey, we got the costume-in-the-ring! And it was developed by Ryan Choi! I'm so happy and so geeked.

I bet this is going to be the "Power Rangers transformation" -type moment in every episode(i.e Barry points the ring at the camera,suit pops out,etc)

Is Nora going to get a love interest at some point..? dont be surprised if Cisco,Ralph or even Wells(once he comes back) starts catching feelings for her,prompting either Barry or Iris to say "Stay away from my/our daughter!" lol

Also wonder if she'll play a part in the December crossover(still not feeling Ruby Rose as Batwoman)

[ruby24]

So are they going to completely ignore the usual time jump of 5 months over the summer, or will there just not be a Christmas episode this year?

[bettername2come]

37 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

So are they going to completely ignore the usual time jump of 5 months over the summer, or will there just not be a Christmas episode this year?

I would imagine the episodes won't be weekly plots and we'll have smaller elapsed time in between episodes to catch up. I'm actually glad they're skipping the jump this time. It's nice to have a change of pace for once. 

[BeautifulFlower]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 

Having Cavanaugh play different versions of Wells was a condition for him to be a regular cast member as the show wanted him for more than just the first season.

 

Actually Tom only signed on for one season. He didn't want to be on the show until they offered him Eobard. His contract was changed after he decided to stay. So no, the show never planned the different version of Wells.

 

1 hour ago, TDT said:

 

Is Nora going to get a love interest at some point..? dont be surprised if Cisco,Ralph or even Wells(once he comes back) starts catching feelings for her,prompting either Barry or Iris to say "Stay away from my/our daughter!" lol

 

Ew gross. These would be people she knew since she was a baby. Plus,  love interest for Nora would be pointless as she will be leaving to go back to her time.

[Trini]

About the airplane phasing scene: 'The Flash S5 Premiere Recreates a Scene Directly Out of the Comics'

[cambridgeguy]

What the new newspaper said.  Obviously that's fluid but it looks like they've made a point of tossing out some new names.

[wingster55]

On 10/9/2018 at 10:58 PM, Lantern7 said:

"Wells from Earth-2" could sound like "Wells from Earth, too."

Maybe...but why would he think that? "From Earth, also"? What, there's a possibility that he's from the moon?

[HunterHunted]

20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Spoiler

Her name is supposed to be DAWN. And she’s supposed to have a twin brother, DON!!!???

 

This is clearly only something that works in a comic book.

Spoiler

For many many people, including about half of the US, Don and Dawn are pronounced exactly the same. It's a cute gimmick when written, but would play out nearly incomprehensible in a filmed version.

 

It's interesting to note that Batman Beyond's "schway" has managed to migrate all the way over here as future slang.

I was really hoping for "crash" and "mode."

[rmontro]

I still haven't decided if I'm going to watch this season, but I loved it when Nora mentioned Lightning Lad.

Dibney's cluelessness about time travel and multiverses was kind of amusing.  Makes you wonder how the heck he's a detective though.

Once again, we get a big mystery villain with a deep disguised voice (even though it's been revealed who he is).  Not exactly treading new water here.

[scarynikki12]

Episode threads are for episode discussion.  They are not for comic discussion, spoilers, previews, or convincing posters that their opinions are wrong.  We have threads for comic and spoiler discussions.  If you wish to reference comics, previews, or spoilers, that's allowed but they must all be tagged as spoilers and they cannot move discussion from the episode itself.  Posts that fail to use the spoiler tag will be hidden and repeat offenders will be warned. 

[Kromm]

Damn. It's a rare thing when a show introduces (well, sort of introduces, since her previous appearances were fragments more than scenes) a central new character so late in a series who works so well.  She's totally lovable, and that's a really hard thing to deliberately create.

[DearEvette]

On 10/10/2018 at 9:42 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I don't think the writers are very subtle with what they're planning to do with the Iris/Nora relationship, but maybe it's because I've seen a lot of television. I feel fairly certain that Iris will probably be a very overprotective parent toward Nora once Barry disappeared, especially when she gained powers. Perhaps Iris even becomes more closed off once Barry is gone, leading Nora to believe that her mother doesn't really care or has moved on from Barry's disappearance (when we know she hasn't). It's quite possible that Iris forbids Nora from traveling back in time. 

If they surprise me and throw in some twists, I'd be impressed. But, at the moment, I feel like it's a typical "mother is overprotective or distant from daughter; daughter doesn't like mother because of it and rebels". She seems chilly with Iris in her past but she's not totally blowing her off, so they do have some form of a relationship, which means it can be repaired.

Yeah, this is the vibe I am getting as well.  I can imagine also Iris constantly having to be the voice of caution and reason when all Nora wants to be do is emulate daddy.  

What I would love to see now, though, that Nora is here and in the presence of Barry and Iris with Barry that some of her blinders come off.  That she learns as we have that Barry isn't perfect.  That however the Iris of future is, who has live through her husband disappearing and having to raise a child (or children?) alone, that she isn't this Iris right now in front of her.  If she got to see her parents interacting and understand their relationship and love, she might learn a few things about her mother.

 

On 10/10/2018 at 1:34 PM, adora721 said:

Also, wanted to mention that I don't think Nora was telling the truth that it was just her and her mom growing up. That screamed "lie" to me. I think Nora is hiding a sibling who doesn't agree with her time-travel high jinks.

I would love this to be true.  It might also explain some things as well.  If, say, the sibling was more like Iris or less hero-worshippy of Barry, they might have a closer relationship and Nora might have felt a little distanced.

I have to say I did like this premiere and the intro of Nora is very well done.  JPK as perfect casting and she is pitch perfect with the slightly hyper-speed personality that one would expect of the speedster child who would go back in time to meet a missing (presumed dead)  parent.  If it is more a case of her coming back in time to prevent Barry going missing, then I am liking the parallels between her and Barry who went back in time to try to save his parent too.

The scenes between Iris and Barry were excellently done. Emotional, loving and the chemistry between those two just continues to leap off the screen.  But dammit Barry don't you lie to Iris all season long!  Also loved the scene with Barry and Nora in the vault.  Man, GG can do man angst so well.

Here's hoping they don't muck up the big bad this year.

Edited October 12, 2018 by DearEvette

[immortalfrieza]

On 10/9/2018 at 8:02 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Nora is a good character. I actually really enjoyed her. I think they went a little heavy handed on Nora being so much like Barry (same tastes in food, same job, etc).

I don't know if this is true for real life, but in fiction I've noticed a trend of characters who don't have a particular parent to massively idealize them and then overcompensate by emulating them as much as possible. The child is trying to fill the void of their absence and I definitely get that impression here. It's really convenient too, they did the same thing on Arrow with Felicity and Curtis when they introduced the latter. Make the new character as much like an already existing character most fans already like (in Nora's case Barry) and just slot them in, fans will probably love them.

 

On 10/10/2018 at 12:29 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Dammit, Barry!  You're totally going to keep what Nora told you hidden from Iris, right?  What is it with these characters and all of their lying?!

The DC superhero shows have been doing this same old tired plotline since Arrow kicked everything off. Have one character find something out or have some deep dark secret that another character should be told about immediately, but for no good reason not tell them. Then lie about it until it's forcibly found out about and/or royally screws something up THEN tell them when it would cause the most problems possible. For bonus points have that secret be told to someone other than the person it really REALLY should be told to just to make things that much worse when the secret is out.

They've done this at least once every single season for each of these shows, it's no surprise seeing it happen this season.

 

On 10/9/2018 at 9:17 PM, tennisgurl said:

I guess screw ups have more fun :)

More like screw ups are more fun to watch, as far as pretty much every writer in history is concerned anyway. Characters have to be totally screwed up somehow or they are boring, even if they are screwed up for reasons that don't make any sense and are no excuse for their behavior anyway by any stretch of the imagination. This is particularly true of any powers that be. The result in a world even more screwed up than ours, if that's possible. It's gotten to the point though that the story wants us to think of the protagonists as the good guys even though they very very clearly aren't, the end result being we can't even root for them. Thankfully Team Flash hasn't hit that threshold yet, but we've got a season to go so who knows.

 

On 10/9/2018 at 8:11 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Plus it looks like we have a big bad who wants to murder every meta he can get his hands on.  Let's hope he doesn't leave a trail of bodies in his wake until the finale.

 

That would bug me if it weren't for the fact that Team Flash excluded the number of metas who weren't evil even before they got their powers or turned crackling supervillain out of the blue the moment they got powers could be counted on one hand. Just last season we had a guy who was given powers by another meta then became a total lunatic the second he got them. I presume there's going to be at least one or two token "good" metas that this guy will kill just so we can actually want him to lose.

Edited October 13, 2018 by immortalfrieza

[BeautifulFlower]

I guess the writers already forgot about the look nora gave Caitlin back in 4x15. I know she didn't want to spend time with Iris, but I couldn't help but wonder why she would ask if Cisco AND Caitlin need help. Honestly, if she doesn't like Caitlin, I would have assumed she would only ask about Cisco.

[mrspidey]

Yeah, I'm sorry, CCPD, but when you suspend your only CSI, you really need to have a replacement working on your cases. There are victims connected to those cases that want justice, for crying out loud!

[Lantern7]

4 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Yeah, I'm sorry, CCPD, but when you suspend your only CSI, you really need to have a replacement working on your cases. There are victims connected to those cases that want justice, for crying out loud!

Forgot about that. I'm guessing Barry was reinstated solely to show viewers he has a day job. And Singh is still not in the Flash loop. I'd like to imagine he knows, because everyone else knows. "Allen, welcome back to CCPD. We've have other CSIs, but since this city is almost as messed-up as Star City, there's a huge backlog. With your talents, I'm sure you'll have this done in a flash." "Thank, Capt- . . . wait, what?!?" "Shoot, my husband is calling. [to camera] I'm gay and I'm married. I'm saying that out loud because who knows when I'll be back."

[legaleagle53]

On 10/10/2018 at 8:41 AM, ursula said:

 ☹️I knew it was too good to be true. I literally did not miss him. 

The recurring versions of HW is a gag that should die but the show clings onto for some weird reason.

Because it was written into Tom's contract that he gets to play a different version of Wells each season as a way of keeping him from getting bored with the part.  That's the "weird reason."

[ursula]

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Because it was written into Tom's contract that he gets to play a different version of Wells each season as a way of keeping him from getting bored with the part.  That's the "weird reason."

It's weird to me that with the already bloated cast the show has, they go out of their way to accommodate this when all his versions could have dropped to recurring/special guest status in season 2.

[phoenics]

On 10/13/2018 at 9:37 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

I guess the writers already forgot about the look nora gave Caitlin back in 4x15. I know she didn't want to spend time with Iris, but I couldn't help but wonder why she would ask if Cisco AND Caitlin need help. Honestly, if she doesn't like Caitlin, I would have assumed she would only ask about Cisco.

I'm hoping they didn't drop it - but it appears they've dropped it.  So Iris is the only one to get treated like shit.  Even though Nora should know all about how KF worked with Savitar to kill her own mother.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

  So Iris is the only one to get treated like shit.  Even though Nora should know all about how KF worked with Savitar to kill her own mother.  

And this is why I don’t like her. I felt bad for Iris, who was trying so hard to connect with her daughter and she made it very obvious she wanted to be anywhere except with her mother. Though I enjoyed her in the crossover last season. You would think that Iris intentionally kept her from Barry as if they were divorced or was an indifferent mother. And I refuse to believe that.

I’m perfectly comfortable sitting at my table for one.

[Trini]

53 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And this is why I don’t like her. I felt bad for Iris, who was trying so hard to connect with her daughter and she made it very obvious she wanted to be anywhere except with her mother. Though I enjoyed her in the crossover last season. You would think that Iris intentionally kept her from Barry as if they were divorced or was an indifferent mother. And I refuse to believe that.

Clearly there's more story to come. It's only the first episode back. I

To me, the awkward interactions point to something wrong on Nora's end, not Iris'. From Nora's words, Iris has always been there for her.

[Proteus]

On October 13, 2018 at 9:37 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

I guess the writers already forgot about the look nora gave Caitlin back in 4x15. I know she didn't want to spend time with Iris, but I couldn't help but wonder why she would ask if Cisco AND Caitlin need help. Honestly, if she doesn't like Caitlin, I would have assumed she would only ask about Cisco.

Honestly, I never thought that Nora gave Caitlin a look. I know a lot of fans on the internet interpreted the scene that way, but I never did.

[Katsullivan]

YMMV but 1:04 and following is so clearly LOOK - striking since Nora has been bubbly and happy in every other interaction - that it's not funny.

Won't be surprised if the show completely drops it, of course, because Caitlin can do no wrong even though technically as @phoenics pointed out, Nora should hate Killer Frost on principle alone. 

[Proteus]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

YMMV but 1:04 and following is so clearly LOOK - striking since Nora has been bubbly and happy in every other interaction - that it's not funny.

Won't be surprised if the show completely drops it, of course, because Caitlin can do no wrong even though technically as @phoenics pointed out, Nora should hate Killer Frost on principle alone. 

But why assume that look has anything to do with Caitlin? Harry was in the scene too. Plus Nora gave ominous looks and lines after every scene she had last season.

[Trini]

Aw, smeg! It just hit me that they found yet another way to center everything at STAR Labs with Nora living living in the newfound Lounge. I mean, I figured that she'd end up there eventually, but I thought she'd stay with Joe and Cecile, or with Barry and Iris first.  ::SIGH::  I'm pretty sure Helbing mentioned trying not to have everyone in the Labs so much this year, and I hope they follow through on that.

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, Proteus said:

But why assume that look has anything to do with Caitlin? Harry was in the scene too. Plus Nora gave ominous looks and lines after every scene she had last season.

Well it goes without saying that of the two characters, Caitlin not Harry is the alter ego of a super-villain. If I'm going to place bets on whom a girl in the future is going to be side-eyeing - the father of another speedster superhero, or the super-villain who helped murder a member of Team Flash - I'm going to put my money on the person who tried to kill not one but two of my parents.

 

However, situationally, Nora's flinty gaze occurs right after a conversation with Caitlin. She's bubbly and smiling, and when Caitlin goes off-screen, she replies her question with an uncharacteristically hard glare and voice. It's clear foreshadowing, but the writers have made it obvious that Caitlin's Killer Frost arc is basically pointless so I don't expect it to go anywhere. 

[ursula]

19 hours ago, phoenics said:

I'm hoping they didn't drop it - but it appears they've dropped it. 

 

8 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Won't be surprised if the show completely drops it, of course

I know the show has a horrible precedent for making Caitlin accountable, but I still think it's too early to conclude that there won't be a follow-through on this scene. Just because Nora was bubbly and smiley in the premiere doesn't  mean that she won't reveal something later. I mean, there's a reason why they're giving Killer Frost a (hopefully!) definitive origin story this season. Since Nora is the main storyline, it has to tie into this somehow.

[Starry]

18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And this is why I don’t like her. I felt bad for Iris, who was trying so hard to connect with her daughter and she made it very obvious she wanted to be anywhere except with her mother. Though I enjoyed her in the crossover last season. You would think that Iris intentionally kept her from Barry as if they were divorced or was an indifferent mother. And I refuse to believe that.

I’m perfectly comfortable sitting at my table for one.

Barry and Iris didn't divorce. The 2024 and 2049 newspapers made it clear. It's 25 years after Barry's 'death' and Iris is still Iris West-Allen. I think Nora's dialogue in the crossover proves that she knows her parents had a great marriage. As for Iris being an indifferent mother, I believe their tension is more recent. The writers can always prove me wrong but that's the vibe I got from their scenes.

 

5 hours ago, Trini said:

Aw, smeg! It just hit me that they found yet another way to center everything at STAR Labs with Nora living living in the newfound Lounge. I mean, I figured that she'd end up there eventually, but I thought she'd stay with Joe and Cecile, or with Barry and Iris first.  ::SIGH::  I'm pretty sure Helbing mentioned trying not to have everyone in the Labs so much this year, and I hope they follow through on that.

I'm so frustrated because I bet we'll see the Jitters set even less now. They can have coffee in the Lounge!

[Proteus]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Well it goes without saying that of the two characters, Caitlin not Harry is the alter ego of a super-villain. If I'm going to place bets on whom a girl in the future is going to be side-eyeing - the father of another speedster superhero, or the super-villain who helped murder a member of Team Flash - I'm going to put my money on the person who tried to kill not one but two of my parents.

 

However, situationally, Nora's flinty gaze occurs right after a conversation with Caitlin. She's bubbly and smiling, and when Caitlin goes off-screen, she replies her question with an uncharacteristically hard glare and voice. It's clear foreshadowing, but the writers have made it obvious that Caitlin's Killer Frost arc is basically pointless so I don't expect it to go anywhere. 

I never assumed that scene meant Nora had a problem with Caitlin. I remember being suprprised coming online after the episode aired & seeing so many interpreted that Nora has a problem with Caitlin. Nora had an ominous look after she saw Joe/Cecile too. I didn't think that meant she hated them.

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 minutes ago, Starry said:

Barry and Iris didn't divorce. 

I know they didn’t. What I stated was how Nora is acting like around Iris in this episode. As if they were a divorced couple and Iris kept Nora away from Barry. She was smiley and bubbly around Everyone except Iris. That’s how it looked to me. She couldn’t leave fast enough (pardon the pun) when she told Iris she had to leave while they were having coffee. It was clear to me Nora didn’t want to be there.

Edited October 15, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

I never assumed that scene meant Nora had a problem with Caitlin. I remember being suprprised coming online after the episode aired & seeing so many interpreted that Nora has a problem with Caitlin. Nora had an ominous look after she saw Joe/Cecile too. I didn't think that meant she hated them.

Nora didn't give an ominous look after Joe and Cecile. She was bubbly and happy with them. Nora only gave some ominous words to them. The ominous look was after she saw Iris walking up.

After Harry and Caitlin left, Nora's expression changed. Plus, her words were (obviously referring to Harry and Caitlin) that she was meeting people at Jitters for the first time.

[Proteus]

18 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Nora didn't give an ominous look after Joe and Cecile. She was bubbly and happy with them. Nora only gave some ominous words to them. The ominous look was after she saw Iris walking up.

After Harry and Caitlin left, Nora's expression changed. Plus, her words were (obviously referring to Harry and Caitlin) that she was meeting people at Jitters for the first time.

I remember all of the scenes.

[Katsullivan]

36 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Nora didn't give an ominous look after Joe and Cecile. She was bubbly and happy with them. Nora only gave some ominous words to them. The ominous look was after she saw Iris walking up.

Which is even more pertinent considering that Nora's issues with Iris were foreshadowed and followed through in this episode. It's really no surprise to anyone that their one-on-one was strained because you could see in that scene that yep, Nora was definitely avoiding Iris.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

Just because Nora was bubbly and smiley in the premiere doesn't  mean that she won't reveal something later. I mean, there's a reason why they're giving Killer Frost a (hopefully!) definitive origin story this season. Since Nora is the main storyline, it has to tie into this somehow.

Look, I'd really love to believe this theory but I just don't see it holding up.

Nora's secrets were clearly: lying about not being able to go back, keeping the secret of her father's "death", her issues with her mom which are probably something typical like hero-worshipping the dead literal hero father, while chaffing at being held back by an overprotective mother. They've made the point of her being a less experienced speedster than Barry so I don't see how she can have any tricks up her sleeve where Caitlin/Killer Frost are concerned. This episode was the place to "put all the cards on the table", so to speak, with regards to her relationship with the old generation --- and they make a point of making it clear that the only person Nora has issues with is Iris. 

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

As if they were a divorced couple and Iris kept Nora away from Barry. She was smiley and bubbly around Everyone except Iris. That’s how it looked to me. She couldn’t leave fast enough (pardon the pun) when she told Iris she had to leave while they were having coffee. It was clear to me Nora didn’t want to be there.

Honestly, I found Nora's attitude towards Iris disgusting. Strained mother/daughter relationship is one thing, but Nora was all but sneering at Iris and it really grated. Of course, the show would find a way to crap on Iris with her own daughter while have her fan-girl-worship an actual murderer.

[scarynikki12]

Keep the discussion about the episode.  We have many other threads if you want to focus on other topics.

[ursula]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

Barry and Iris didn't divorce. The 2024 and 2049 newspapers made it clear. It's 25 years after Barry's 'death' and Iris is still Iris West-Allen. I think Nora's dialogue in the crossover proves that she knows her parents had a great marriage. As for Iris being an indifferent mother, I believe their tension is more recent. The writers can always prove me wrong but that's the vibe I got from their scenes.

 

I'm just expecting cliche stuff... Daddy died as a speedster hero, so Mommy discouraged Nora from doing the same.

Of course, there is potential for the show to go to some real dark places with this e.g. Mommy tried to remove the speedster gene from Nora but somehow, I don't see the writers depicting Iris that way. NGL, the melodramatic part of me would actually love to see that happen but I won't trust that kind of storyline for Iris in the hands of Flash writers. 

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

This episode was the place to "put all the cards on the table", so to speak, with regards to her relationship with the old generation --- and they make a point of making it clear that the only person Nora has issues with is Iris. 

The way I see it, a lot happened in this episode. Nora's introduction, the revelation of Barry vanishing (and not coming back!) in the future, confirming that her relationship with Iris is strained, establishing the season's Big Bad, saying good-bye (again!) to Wally, establishing that Papa Snow is probably alive and planting the seeds of Caitlin's (n-th) origin story, confirming that Cecile still has telepathy, Barry's new suit, the Flash ring...

Basically, that's a looooooot to go through in one episode and I won't be surprised if a few things just had to be cut for time. Yes, I am probably being optimistic and this show has a track record of not following through where Caitlin/Killer Frost is concerned. I just don't see think that this episode, which was already saturated with exposition, relationships, drama, set-up, etc has put a definitive nail on that coffin. Time will tell.

 

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know they didn’t. What I stated was how Nora is acting like around Iris in this episode. As if they were a divorced couple and Iris kept Nora away from Barry. She was smiley and bubbly around Everyone except Iris. That’s how it looked to me. She couldn’t leave fast enough (pardon the pun) when she told Iris she had to leave while they were having coffee. It was clear to me Nora didn’t want to be there.

 

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Honestly, I found Nora's attitude towards Iris disgusting. Strained mother/daughter relationship is one thing, but Nora was all but sneering at Iris and it really grated. Of course, the show would find a way to crap on Iris with her own daughter while have her fan-girl-worship an actual murderer.

Huh. I didn't get that vibe and I usually pick this things up. I just got discomfort on both their parts. Nora doesn't really know this Iris so she's not comfortable with her. And the Iris that she does know... What's that saying ---- "my mom is in two places at once - under my skin and in my heart"? That's the vibe I got. Of course, she's fan-girling over Barry. He's the idealised hero who never had to do the dirty work of grounding her, or making her do chores, or bringing her up. 

FWIW, I actually prefer the tension between Nora and Iris to a bland, sugary relationship because it has the potential to go interesting places. I think the Jitters scene (hurray for seeing somewhere outside Star Labs!) was the right blend of cringy and funny.

The relationship between Nora/Iris has only one way to go and that's up, while Barry/Nora is the opposite. I'm actually dreading (on Barry's part) the inevitable moment when Nora realises that her idol has feet of clay.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Huh. I didn't get that vibe and I usually pick this things up. I just got discomfort on both their parts. Nora doesn't really know this Iris so she's not comfortable with her.

This is my take too. A couple of awkward interactions doesn't make Nora a horrid brat. Nora wasn't as open with Iris as with Barry, but she still was willing to go on that coffee date and try and connect with Iris. We know there's some love there, since Nora's hero name is the one Iris gave her, and her hero costume is also the one Iris gave her.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Trini

[Katsullivan]

8 hours ago, ursula said:

Of course, there is potential for the show to go to some real dark places with this e.g. Mommy tried to remove the speedster gene from Nora but somehow, I don't see the writers depicting Iris that way

 

The way I see it, a lot happened in this episode. Nora's introduction, the revelation of Barry vanishing (and not coming back!) in the future, confirming that her relationship with Iris is strained, establishing the season's Big Bad, saying good-bye (again!) to Wally, establishing that Papa Snow is probably alive and planting the seeds of Caitlin's (n-th) origin story, confirming that Cecile still has telepathy, Barry's new suit, the Flash ring...

Honestly, I would be surprised if they don't go there with the way they've set Nora/Iris up. The fact that the show as jammed up with so much set up is all the more reason why: a,  they could have cut out that Jitters scene or reduced it to Nora maybe Flashing off when Iris tried to corner her or b, they could have set up Nora having issues with Killer Frost. Since the episode kicked off what would clearly be Caitlin's special new arc for the season, then if Nora's glare was any kind of foreshadowing, they'd have reminded us of that. At the very least, it should have appeared in the previously, much like the scene of Nora avoiding Iris at the baby shower appeared. They took the time to establish that Nora practically hated/despised her mother but also took the time to establish Nora fan-girling over her parents's almost-murderer? It's either they had enough time or they didn't. 

 

8 hours ago, ursula said:

Yes, I am probably being optimistic and this show has a track record of not following through where Caitlin/Killer Frost is concerned. I just don't see think that this episode, which was already saturated with exposition, relationships, drama, set-up, etc has put a definitive nail on that coffin. Time will tell.

That track record is the reason why I'm not inclined to think otherwise.

6 hours ago, Trini said:

A couple of awkward interactions doesn't make Nora a horrid brat.

YMMV but when they have Nora basically glaring at Iris over her coffee cup, it's not even "brat" territory to me, it's downright hostile. Which is why I actually think that @ursula's theory about Iris trying to un-meta Nora can have some weight. It's also a clever way for the writers to crap on future!Iris and still get away with it since it's basically given that present!Iris will be so horrified by this that she won't repeat the same mistakes. 

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

a,  they could have cut out that Jitters scene or reduced it to Nora maybe Flashing off when Iris tried to corner her or b, they could have set up Nora having issues with Killer Frost.

Nah, I'm glad the writers felt it was important for Iris and Nora to have a mother/daughter bonding moment, instead of more KF. At least that's what I prefer to see.

 

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

They took the time to establish that Nora practically hated/despised her mother but also took the time to establish Nora fan-girling over her parents's almost-murderer?

Nora doesn't hate her mother, and the only person she was fangirling over was Barry.

 

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

YMMV but when they have Nora basically glaring at Iris over her coffee cup, it's not even "brat" territory to me, it's downright hostile.

I guess so, because nothing was 'hostile' in this scene.

[Trini]

I suspect that 'Mr. Miles(Myles?)' might be something that comes up later, since they didn't really need to say the name of the Flash Museum curator. I've seen spec that it might lead to Reverse Flash. Plausible, since they've put in easter eggs that paid off seasons later before.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Trini

[ursula]

9 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

That track record is the reason why I'm not inclined to think otherwise.

Look, I get it. I can't even tell you why I'm optimistic about this. Maybe it's just missing the show over the summer so now everything is shiny and hopeful, and I'm in the frame of mind to have faith in the writers. ?? 

 

9 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

YMMV but when they have Nora basically glaring at Iris over her coffee cup, it's not even "brat" territory to me, it's downright hostile.

So I re-watched the scene again and yeah, maybe Nora does come off a bit much in that scene. I guess this is where it would have made sense for her to have been a teenager, at least young enough to get away with that behaviour. I still think it has more to do with bad directing (not acting because I've seen JKP in other shows and I know she can act), than actual intent from the writing.

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Nah, I'm glad the writers felt it was important for Iris and Nora to have a mother/daughter bonding moment, instead of more KF. At least that's what I prefer to see.

 

I'm on the fence. More Iris is good, but I also don't want to see Iris sad or embarrassed or hated on. Thankfully, I don't think that's what that scene was supposed to convey, although I also understand those who weren't happy with it. Again, I'm probably being unreasonably optimistic about this. ?

[Lovecat]

On 10/9/2018 at 10:58 PM, Lantern7 said:

 ETA: Wait, the actress playing Nora is Jessica Parker Kennedy? I'm guessing at least one parent was heavy into SATC.

And perhaps could time travel?  JPK was born in 1984 ;)  She SO does not look 34, though!!

[adora721]

On 10/16/2018 at 3:30 AM, Katsullivan said:

Honestly, I would be surprised if they don't go there with the way they've set Nora/Iris up. The fact that the show as jammed up with so much set up is all the more reason why: a,  they could have cut out that Jitters scene or reduced it to Nora maybe Flashing off when Iris tried to corner her or b, they could have set up Nora having issues with Killer Frost. Since the episode kicked off what would clearly be Caitlin's special new arc for the season, then if Nora's glare was any kind of foreshadowing, they'd have reminded us of that.

So, I'm going to be uncharacteristically optimistic that Nora's glare will be explained at some point, be it about Wells or Caitlin or both. I had to look for the article in which both GG and DP discuss Nora's look or glare after meeting Caitlin and Harry at Jitters. The interesting thing is that neither actor were expecting Nora's glare or knew what it meant; of course, they could be lying. I think it's also interesting that DP assumed the "look" was aimed at Caitlin.

Perhaps they aren't exploring the "glare" now while they set up Caitlin's dead dad arc and they don't want Nora to show animosity towards another team member until the Iris/Nora tension is cleared up.

"Mystery Girl’s latest appearance back in episode 15, however, left some fans (and cast members!) scratching their heads. Though she was as chipper as the her past run-ins with Team Flash, Mystery Girl’s mood swiftly turned somber after crossing paths with Caitlin (Danielle Panabaker) and Harry (Tom Cavanagh), possibly signaling some future animosity toward either, or both. “I will actually say, I know who she is and a little bit about her backstory, and how she’s connected to a handful of characters,” Gustin notes. “But I didn’t know what that was when I watched that episode. I was like, ‘Huh, I wonder what that’s about.’"

Panabaker was also surprised by Mystery Girl’s ominous look at the end of the hour. “That, to me, is actually the fun of watching our show sometimes, because what I read on the page is not necessarily the way things end up cut together,” Panabaker says. “Harry and Caitlin leave the scene and then there’s the push-in on the Mystery Girl, and when I watched the show I was like, ‘Oh, that’s a very different look than she gave me the rest of the scene. What does it mean?!’”

Edited October 18, 2018 by adora721

[Lantern7]

6 hours ago, Lovecat said:

And perhaps could time travel?  JPK was born in 1984 ;)  She SO does not look 34, though!!

Square Pegs? ?‍♂️

She’s 34? DAMN. Next thing, I’ll be hearing that Carlos Valdes is eligible for social security next year.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Lantern7