Season 5 Chat

[Dee]

Dre already did that in ToysRn'tUs.

[Bronzedog]

The family has the most flexible before work/school morning schedule I’ve ever seen.

[Jade Foxx]

I think that was a lot to unpack. Still processing...

 But bravo to the show for opening the dialogue. Very sensitive topic within “our community”

[Empress1]

9 hours ago, Bronzedog said:

The family has the most flexible before work/school morning schedule I’ve ever seen.

That looked like a very leisurely morning to me!

I don't consider either Ruby or Dre dark so I was glad when Diane pointed it out. All the women Ruby was listing are much darker than Ruby or Dre (or Diane, for that matter). They also seemed to be counting Jack among the light-skinned members of the family when to me, he, Ruby, and Dre are all about the same complexion. It really is a fraught issue. In my family I have members who are light and straight-haired enough to pass for white, and members who are the same complexion as Lupita, and everything in between.

[Kimmel77]

Interesting episode. Never really noticed colourism in my life until the last few years.

[Sparger Springs]

They tried it, and just like in real life the real issue is how bad we treat the light skinned people. 

[MadyGirl1987]

31 minutes ago, Sparger Springs said:

They tried it, and just like in real life the real issue is how bad we treat the light skinned people. 

I didn't get that at all. I actually felt they did a great job at showing the struggles of each side. Ruby and Diane's perspectives showed how hard it is for darker-skinned people and how lighter blacks can treat them poorly. Ruby's relatives treated her horribly and it didn't escape me the woman who said Diane was "pretty for such a dark skinned girl" was black. My main takeaway was that colorism is an issue that divides the black community and needs to be addressed.

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, Kimmel77 said:

Interesting episode. Never really noticed colourism in my life until the last few years.

It's always been a thing. People just didn't take it that seriously back in the day. 

I mean this stems all the way back to some light skinned people being able to pass for white back in the days of slavery.

The paper bag test. Nino Brown saying I never liked you light skinned muthafuckas in new jack city. 

As much as I love being black and my black people, it's bugs me how hard a lot of us work to create dividing lines amongst ourselves and seem to enjoy competing to be the ultimate victim. 

I don't have a problem with Bow and Junior taking the most offense in this episode because light skin jokes seem this fun joke machine for people but it's not funny to everybody.

Lastly, for a lot of people, you are dark skinned unless you are "beige" so all that rang true to me. I'm basically Dre colored but I would never think of myself as lightskinned for example.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Sparger Springs said:

They tried it, and just like in real life the real issue is how bad we treat the light skinned people. 

I thought the issue was how badly they treated each other, and each tried to negate the difficulties faced by the other.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 1/15/2019 at 10:42 PM, Dee said:

It's ironic in an episode dedicated to "colorism," the sole takeaway is the prioritization of the lightskinned characters grievances.

Well, Ruby and Dre do constantly make comments about Bow's skin tone, as if there's something she can do about it.  (And Junior said that he felt that Dre thought he was less of a man, because his skin was light.) I don't recall Bow or Junior making disparaging comments about Ruby or Dre's skin tones.

I also don't think Ruby's grievances were ignored.  We found out why she constantly calls Bow "Zebra" and other unkind nicknames-to make up for the horrible way she was treated by her own family!  And Dre, without knowing the reasons for Ruby's comments, mimics her by calling Bow "half-Nubian."  Those comments still hurt Bow, though.

I do recall your previous comments about how Diane, the darkest in the family, is so often portrayed as evil, as an example of colorism.  When they were actually discussing the topic here, she was remarkably subdued, as if she were on sedatives.

On 1/16/2019 at 8:15 AM, Empress1 said:

They also seemed to be counting Jack among the light-skinned members of the family when to me, he, Ruby, and Dre are all about the same complexion.

At first I thought they were implying that Junior and Jack were "light" and Diane "dark" (not sure where Zoey falls out, but probably not "dark"), especially since Jack was visible in the class photo, but then one of them (ETA: it was Junior, as RaeSpellman mentioned below) grouped Jack with the "dark" family members and no one objected, so I guess to their minds, it's Bow and Junior (and maybe Zoey) in one camp, and everyone else in the other. (Not concerned with Devante since no one seems to care about him anyway.  I was almost expecting Ruby to leave the house when everyone else did, which would imply that Devante is left alone.)

Edited January 17, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Empress1]

Just now, ItCouldBeWorse said:

(And Junior said that he felt that Dre thought he was less of a man, because his skin was light.) 

I found this interesting because I do think Dre thinks Junior isn't Black enough but I always thought that was because of Junior's nerdy interests, not because of his fair complexion.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I found this interesting because I do think Dre thinks Junior isn't Black enough but I always thought that was because of Junior's nerdy interests, not because of his fair complexion.

I suppose it's possible that Junior has heard all the things Dre and Ruby have said about Bow's skin tone, knows his is similar, and combined with Dre's constant talk of his childhood in the 'hood, has internalized it all and drawn the conclusion that Dre doesn't think he's Black enough.

It's probably more the wizardry, though. 

[Rockstar99435]

I guess I don't know what I wanted them to cover with this topic, but it did feel really one sided. Until Ruby pulled out her family album, the message definitely appeared to be "Darker black people need to be nicer to lighter black people." I thought they would have talked more about how media/society warp our perceptions and affect our own behavior without us even realizing, like in the episode when Dre realizes that he always uses light skinned models in his commercials. I was kind of expecting Diane's montage to be of her own family members praising/complimenting light skinned black people and not noticing that they don't compliment dark skinned black people the same way.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Rockstar99435

[tennisgurl]

I think its great that they dealt with such a touchy, awkward issue, even if I think there are some things they could have handled better (like the fact that Dianne, the darkest member of the family, is also the scary one), I think it was pretty well done. I think they could have done more about the struggles of being dark complected,  and how society so often equates being a dark skinned person with being savage or evil, while being a lighter skinned POC is seen as being classier, but it did at least start a conversation, which is certainly a good start.

BUT, I just kept thinking that the Johnson's have a very different morning routine that my family ever did. There wasn't banter and half and half jokes and there certainly weren't big family discussions about major family and social issues, or any kinds of fights. We were too tired! It was usually lots of half asleep ambling around while mom yells at everyone to hurry up. Not a lot of time for debates or old family albums. 

I am far from an expert, but I never thought that Ruby and Dre are particularly dark skinned, at least the way that Dianne is. They are certainly darker than Junior and Bow (who is biracial, which is a probably a whole other thing), but I was glad Dianne called them out on lecturing people on being dark skinned when they are both lighter than Dianne. I was also surprised they didnt have Dre mention the episode when he realized at work he had a color bias, and his ads mostly featured lighter skinned black people. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Dee]

Quote

Well, Ruby and Dre do constantly make comments about Bow's skin tone, as if there's something she can do about it.  (And Junior said that he felt that Dre thought he was less of a man, because his skin was light.)

They joke about Rainbow's complexion. That's it. It's not mean spirited on their end, but for a "supposedly" proud Black woman who yearns for nothing more than to be white, such as Rainbow, of course she would throw a fit.

Junior can STFU. He knows his complexion has NOTHING to do with the issues between he & Andre. He just wanted an excuse to throw yet another childish temper tantrum.

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I don't recall Bow or Junior making disparaging comments about Ruby or Dre's skin tones.

Because the cultural context is different....as they themselves acknowledge.

Quote

I also don't think Ruby's grievances were ignored.  We found out why she constantly calls Bow "Zebra" and other unkind nicknames-to make up for the horrible way she was treated by her own family! 

The show's solution was to make one of its only darker skinned female characters into a literal Angry Black Woman, who is forced to once again grovel at the feet of the Perfect Biracial Snowflake who NEVER does anything wrong. Ever.

Which is both EXTREMELY gross and REALLY offensive.

Quote

Those comments still hurt Bow, though.

....Except when it's Earl making them, because Earl ALWAYS receives a free pass.

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When they were actually discussing the topic here, she was remarkably subdued, as if she were on sedatives.

Of course. It would be counter-intuitive for the show to engage in its usual behavior when it suddenly attempts to act as if it's above the fray.

34 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

It's probably more the wizardry, though. 

It's ONLY about his interest in nerd culture. As they literally discussed, in depth, in the episode prior to this one.

Hence, Junior is full of incontrovertible shit.

[Dee]

32 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think they could have done more about the struggles of being dark complected,  and how society so often equates being a dark skinned person with being savage or evil, while being a lighter skinned POC is seen as being classier,

Andre & Ruby did bring those very issues up, including citing evidence that proves their assertions, only for Rainbow & Junior to willfully ignore cultural context so they could return to whining about the lightskinned/biracial struggle while simultaneously blaming dark skinned people for "reverse colorism."

[possibilities]

I do wish Earl had been there.

[Racj82]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I do wish Earl had been there.

True. True.

I dont understand how people could watch this episode and say that it was in any way a one sided argument or exploration. We literally got it from all sides.

Yes, Bow and Junior were more defensive. They are the ones that feel attacked in their own home at times.  Dre and Ruby don't.

Bow and Junior also have the right to feel offended by those "non spirited jokes" because to them, they are not just jokes to them. The people they love make them feel slighted and insecure regularly whether it's meant to be that way or not.

The point of this episode was to highlight the issues with colorism as a whole. Everyone of every shade have their own issues. We don't need to keep fighting from within.

And honestly even if this episode was to point out how fucked up it is in the way light skinned people are treated by darker skin blacks, then so be it. Any time we do have colorism addressed, it's from a dark skinned point of view. It's not okay to marginalize dark skinned black people. It's ALSO isn't okay to keep mocking and belittling light skinned people like they have no problems or can't be a part of the struggle. It's bullshit both ways. Call out the hypocrisy.  

[Dee]

5 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Bow and Junior also have the right to feel offended by those "non spirited jokes" because to them, they are not just jokes to them.

Rainbow having a TON of unresolved issues about her background & Junior's inability to mature into a functional adult are NOT Andre & Ruby's fault.

Equating lightskinned people's issues with jokes with the factual examples of interracial and intra-racial oppression darkskinned people deal with is majorly offensive.

Quote

It's ALSO isn't okay to keep mocking and belittling light skinned people like they have no problems or can't be a part of the struggle.

As Ruby & Andre told Rainbow & Junior, they sound just like white people when they refuse to acknowledge their inherent privilege.

If jokes suddenly aren't just jokes, and context truly matters, then they need to be honest about the root of their own issues before accusing anyone else of hypocrisy.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Dee

[Sparger Springs]

I don't recall any episodes where an issue was made of anybody's complexion expcept for Bow's and that came from Dre. I didn't understand where any of Jr's complaints came from based on the actual show.  

[Racj82]

23 minutes ago, Sparger Springs said:

I don't recall any episodes where an issue was made of anybody's complexion expcept for Bow's and that came from Dre. I didn't understand where any of Jr's complaints came from based on the actual show.  

A lot if light skinned jokes come from calling light skinned people weak and soft, which Dre always thought of Junior. Junior also takes more after Bow in the attitude vein, which puts them both at odds with Dre and Ruby.

I mean, does this really need explanation. Junior has had a ton of reasons over the course of the series to have a complex about how Dre looks at and treats Junior. Could it be because he's soft, which is a lot of where light skinned jokes come from? Is it because he's nerdy? Technically it's both. Dre mocks Junior the same way he mocks Bow. It's going to make both of them feel like an other in their own household after a while.

[Sparger Springs]

14 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

A lot if light skinned jokes come from calling light skinned people weak and soft, which Dre always thought of Junior. Junior also takes more after Bow in the attitude vein, which puts them both at odds with Dre and Ruby.

I mean, does this really need explanation. Junior has had a ton of reasons over the course of the series to have a complex about how Dre looks at and treats Junior. Could it be because he's soft, which is a lot of where light skinned jokes come from? Is it because he's nerdy? Technically it's both. Dre mocks Junior the same way he mocks Bow. It's going to make both of them feel like an other in their own household after a while.

Dre makes fun of the things Jr likes. He does not mock him the same way he does Bow. Ruby loves Jr and never makes fun of him, about his activities or anything else.

[Racj82]

35 minutes ago, Sparger Springs said:

Dre makes fun of the things Jr likes. He does not mock him the same way he does Bow. Ruby loves Jr and never makes fun of him, about his activities or anything else.

Some of you are looking past certain points I'm making and what the show made.

I'm not saying that Ruby mocks Junior.

I'm not saying that ultimately Dre mocks Junior because he is light skinned. I am saying that light skinned jokes often equate to you are soft jokes which Dre has always done to Junior. 

Also, where Dre's jokes are coming from doesn't mean that wouldn't feel like they are coming from another place to Junior.

What you say is what you say. How people take or interpret those words are two different things.

Also what someone says and means subconsciously aren't always known to everyone.

Beyond that, the show never once equated what Bow and Junior were feeling to hard struggles Dre and Ruby were talking about. Bow literally said they don't equate and being light skinned has it's own problem.

That doesn't give anyone the right to mock them for something they cant control. 

Wrong is wrong. It's not about who's more right. Who has the biggest struggle. That's the point. Everything else being brought up is ancillary. 

We all have struggles. Someone having things easier doesn't negate their struggles. Also, if someone has a issue with jokes being lobbied their way. Especially in their own home, they have the right to express that.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

A lot if light skinned jokes come from calling light skinned people weak and soft, which Dre always thought of Junior.

Except Junior's complexion has NOTHING to do with his relationship to Andre. They literally had that exact conversation last week.

Quote

Dre mocks Junior the same way he mocks Bow.

No, he doesn't.

Andre mocks Junior because of Junior's attitude and interests. However, as Junior has gotten older, he and Andre's relationship has grown significantly, while Junior has become just as snarky and petty as the rest of his family.

Andre mocks Rainbow, more often than not for her ignorance about, and her condescending attitude towards, many established cultural touchstones held by Andre & many other African Americans. Something Rainbow should understand quite well, since that's all she ever does to Zoey, except usually with more of an emphasis on gender than race.

Quote

 

It's going to make both of them feel like an other in their own household after a while.

 

Rainbow feels like an 'other' in her own household because she wants to be white. Which is something she, and she alone, has to deal with.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

18 hours ago, Dee said:

They joke about Rainbow's complexion. That's it. It's not mean spirited on their end, but for a "supposedly" proud Black woman who yearns for nothing more than to be white, such as Rainbow, of course she would throw a fit.

 

10 hours ago, Dee said:

Rainbow feels like an 'other' in her own household because she wants to be white. Which is something she, and she alone, has to deal with.

I don't see this at all.  Unless you view her being embarrassed at some of Dre's extreme behavior as a desire to be white. Can you please provide examples? 

Edited January 17, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Welp]

Meh, I thought this episode was just OK:

-Liked the explanation that Willie Lynch is a hoax, albeit an enduring one.

-Liked Diane pointing out she's the only dark-skinned one in the family and rej

-Liked Dre pointing out Bow/Junior making similar points to White folks in convos about racism.

-Liked the statistics about how light skin benefits from systemic oppression.

The ending really fell flat to me: it is both true that Junior and Rainbow deserve to not be hurt by insinuations about their complexion coming from family *and* that colorism is about systemic disadvantage for dark-skinned people across all institutions. There was a missed opportunity to call out Rainbow calling Ruby a "monster" as an example of the dehumanizing, animalistic language directed towards darker-skinned Black women (see Serena Williams, Michelle Obama, the Sapphire stereotype, etc.).

Intentional or not, I do agree with the comment upthread about colorism discussions frequently being centered on light-skinned feelings (similar to how discussions about racism often devolve into "not all White people"), and this one wasn't much different. I think it would've been interesting to call out that blindspot--the nature of intersectionality is that we are much more attuned to the manifestations of our disadvantages than our privileges. When those privileges get called out, it's easy to be defensive because we can't always see our *lack of disadvantage* relative to someone else.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When they were all apologizing to each other at the end, I was hoping that the larger message the Johnsons learned is "maybe we should ALL stop being such assholes to each other."

[Rae Spellman]

11 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I found this interesting because I do think Dre thinks Junior isn't Black enough but I always thought that was because of Junior's nerdy interests, not because of his fair complexion.

Junior mentioned that Dre allows Jack to do things that aren't particularly "black" without judging him. Junior also mentioned the difference between the way light skinned women and light skinned men are treated. 

[Dee]

Andre does judge Jack. He just does it behind his back.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 hours ago, RaeSpellman said:

Junior mentioned that Dre allows Jack to do things that aren't particularly "black" without judging him. Junior also mentioned the difference between the way light skinned women and light skinned men are treated. 

Right, Junior was the one who included Jack in the family group with dark skin.

[steelyis]

This episode felt like baby's first discussion about color-ism in the black community.

The performances were great, as usual the actors stepped up, but the depth needed to really tackle the subject wasn't in the writing.

I wished they touched on how color-ism in black communities all over America varies from region to region. Or how there are a lot of dark-skinned black people who only want light-skinned children and how that influences who they hook up with, or marry. And since the show brought up the field slave and house slave dynamic, I wish they very carefully talked about how and why there were so many lighter skinned black people in America during slavery in the first place.

Don't get me wrong it's good the discussion happened on a platform seen nationally, but I don't think the episode was insightful in any meaningful way. Then again I'm old-ish, and I've seen similar conversations played out many times throughout my lifetime, and that could be why the episode didn't resonate with me.

[Racj82]

5 hours ago, steelyis said:

This episode felt like baby's first discussion about color-ism in the black community.

The performances were great, as usual the actors stepped up, but the depth needed to really tackle the subject wasn't in the writing.

I wished they touched on how color-ism in black communities all over America varies from region to region. Or how there are a lot of dark-skinned black people who only want light-skinned children and how that influences who they hook up with, or marry. And since the show brought up the field slave and house slave dynamic, I wish they very carefully talked about how and why there were so many lighter skinned black people in America during slavery in the first place.

Don't get me wrong it's good the discussion happened on a platform seen nationally, but I don't think the episode was insightful in any meaningful way. Then again I'm old-ish, and I've seen similar conversations played out many times throughout my lifetime, and that could be why the episode didn't resonate with me.

I mean, this was a 22 minute episode of a tv show. They is no logical to way to put all of that in there without just sounding like you are spouting bullet points for a episode. It already feels like that at times. Pushing all of that is would be worse. They tried to make the discussion a extension of the characters instead trying to speak for all sides. 

In my opinion, after a certain point, there is only so much back and forth you can have on this. In the fact that all these points are important in a broader scope but it doesn't really matter in that present discussion. Every single slight against dark skinned black people over years and years of our history doesn't negate the feelings of light skinned people. Having it easier doesn't negate the fact that they are still black people when they walk outside of their house. 

This starts to veer close to all lives matter at a certain point. But, my main point is that I'm never a fan of minimizing someone else's pain because you feel yours is more important. So, having someone like Bow try to express that she too has to live in a world where she in a certain way lives in fear and has the same issues as all black people and be shut down by spouting facts about how hard it is for dark skinned black people doesn't negate her words. She can have it a bit easier in this world, as she pointed out, but have her own fears and concerns just like any other black person. Somehow, for a lot of people, making dark skin black jokes would be deeply offensive but light skin jokes are nothing. Not to be taken seriously. For the party on the receiving end of the jokes, it's not nothing.

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

I mean, this was a 22 minute episode of a tv show.

 

I know, but they had a real opportunity to add something fresh to the conversation, and they didn't.

[Dee]

Quote

But, my main point is that I'm never a fan of minimizing someone else's pain because you feel yours is more important.

When the pain in question is quantifiable, equity is out of the question.

[Diapason Untuned]

On 1/16/2019 at 10:10 PM, Dee said:

Except Junior's complexion has NOTHING to do with his relationship to Andre. They literally had that exact conversation last week.

Would it be so farfetched if Junior thought Dre might be more accepting of his hobbies if he were blacker?

[Dee]

Yes. They literally had a conversation in the previous episode about why their bond was strained and Junior's complexion had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

[Diapason Untuned]

So an entire relationship was supposed to be unpacked in a five minute (if that) conversation? Maybe Junior simply didn't mention that he felt that way at that time, or the thought didn't even occur to him until this episode, but once it did, it felt true to him.

[Dee]

Junior fully understood the context between why lightskinned jokes, from other Black people, are/were fine, while dark skinned jokes, from anyone, aren't acceptable at all.

As usual though, Junior was just desperate to utilize yet another strawman argument to whine about his dysfunctional relationship with Andre, which over the past few years has been Junior's fault WAY more than Andre's.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Dee

[red12]

46 minutes ago, Dee said:

Yes. They literally had a conversation in the previous episode about why their bond was strained and Junior's complexion had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

Which is why I did love Dre's response to Junior's complaints about him thinking Junior is soft simply because he is light skinned and Dre responding no, it's specifically because Junior is soft, period. Facts.

[red12]

I agree with much of what has already been said about this episode. In addition, it is difficult for these writers to discuss many of these issues because this show and Grown-ish are examples of colorism when it comes to casting.

The casting of the children has also engaged in conflating light skinned black people with two black parents and biracial people. There is a more nuanced discussion to be had about how colorism, racial hierarchy and access to privileges changes when people who actually are biracial are added to the colorism mix.

Edited January 18, 2019 by red12

[mojito]

Interesting attempt by the show to get into the many shades of brown. I applaud them for that. I'm stunned that this crap is still an issue among modern-day black people. Except for reflecting the past (maybe pre-1980s), it's unbelievable to me to hear these characters go at each other about their skin color. 

I don't applaud the show for the Ruby character, the loud, opinionated, ignorant black woman. I also don't applaud Hollywood's usual casting of the dark(er) husband with the light(er) wife. I mean, really, how trite is that? My sister commented on just this thing while watching a Stormy Weather with Bill Robinson and Lena Horne. She was around 16 when she made that observation, back in the 1960s. And that shit still goes on. (How many dark-skinned women get romantic parts? Ask Beah, Cicely, Whoopee, and Alfre.)

But kudos to the writers for addressing this topic of skin colors among black people, even though it seems very dated to me. 

[NUguy514]

Quote

Junior's inability to mature into a functional adult are NOT Andre & Ruby's fault.

LOL, see, I always thought a parent's parenting choices exactly inform how a child grows and matures, or doesn't grow and mature.  Ruby raised Dre the way she did and had a large hand in shaping the adult he became, and, due to that example, Dre has raised Junior the way he has and has had a large hand in shaping the adult he's becoming.  For better and worse.

I forgot, though, that Dre and Ruby have never been in the wrong on any topic in the history of the universe and will never be so until the end of time.  Henceforth, I will notify the Vatican to have their sainthoods fast-tracked as no two more righteous individuals have ever graced any real or fictional earth; the crushing weight of being always right about everything ever is all the evidence needed to canonize them!

*Runs off to call Pope Francis

[Dee]

4 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

LOL, see, I always thought a parent's parenting choices exactly inform how a child grows and matures, or doesn't grow and mature.

If that were the case then Earl wouldn't be half as beloved as he is, and yet....

[LadyintheLoop]

Would someone tell my white self what the deal was with the lipstick? I always thought red was good with dark colors.

[Racj82]

9 hours ago, LadyintheLoop said:

Would someone tell my white self what the deal was with the lipstick? I always thought red was good with dark colors.

It's just as simple as was shown in screen. Black women are often persuaded to use darker tones for lipstick because red doesn't look attractive on them.

It also may not relate but an added element to blackface back in the day was bright red color for the lips.

[mojito]

Quote

Would someone tell my white self what the deal was with the lipstick? I always thought red was good with dark colors.

You were supposed to play down your fuller lips.

[Gothish520]

This was the best episode of the season by far, IMO. In the limited time they had, I thought they presented both sides equally and I like the way they all recognized their own bad behavior and apologized. This is the Black-ish I've been missing.

[Quickbeam]

Just realized School Daze came out 31 years ago! Been talking about this for a long time. Was a huge issue on campus at my college in the 1970’s. I was in technical theater and learned a lot about lighting and how it impacts differing skin tones. A lot.

I thought the episode was well intended but I did feel bad that Jack was late. It was the only thing he wanted! 

[Sheenieb]

Quote

This starts to veer close to all lives matter at a certain point. But, my main point is that I'm never a fan of minimizing someone else's pain because you feel yours is more important. So, having someone like Bow try to express that she too has to live in a world where she in a certain way lives in fear and has the same issues as all black people and be shut down by spouting facts about how hard it is for dark skinned black people doesn't negate her words. She can have it a bit easier in this world, as she pointed out, but have her own fears and concerns just like any other black person. Somehow, for a lot of people, making dark skin black jokes would be deeply offensive but light skin jokes are nothing. Not to be taken seriously. For the party on the receiving end of the jokes, it's not nothing.

3

Agreed. I'm not a fan of pain comparisons, either. To some, a light-skinned person complaining about light jokes is akin to an attractive person complaining about being beautiful. It may seem ridiculous if your side gets more arrows, but that still doesn't mean that the complaints aren't valid. There is light-skin privilege, but as Bow said, she's still Black when she walks out the door. A racist isn't going to treat her better or respect her more because of her hue. She has privileges on a micro level, but not a macro.

[Dee]

But the issue at hand was a micro problem, not a macro issue.