S02.E07: Les Ecorches

[scottiB]

I'm still on board, but season two of Westworld is becoming like season two of True Detective: I am struggling to like it but know that I will never go back to re-watch another episode (which I do with both series' season ones).

Conversely, every episode of The Expanse this season pops and progresses.

Edited June 4, 2018 by scottiB
fixed typo

[mac123x]

2 hours ago, dgpolo said:

If you took the ball thingy out of say, Lawrence's head, and put it in one of those 'virgin bots' would that bot be Lawrence?

I think he'd work for a little bit but eventually fail like James Delosbots -- his identity is at least partially tied to his physical form, and "these aren't my hands!  This isn't my dick!" would get to him.  I'm guessing.

1 hour ago, Rockstar99435 said:

Not only are their tactical vests not bulletproof, they light up in the dark when hostiles are nearby.  

I don't get the value of lighting up when hostiles approach.  Is it to give the hostiles an easier target?  "Center mass is in the middle of these lights -- AIM HERE" Might as well be a bulls eye.

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

Also, if MiB is NOT some kind of host and yet survived all those shots I call BS and manipulation.

Cable time-traveled back 30 minutes before the fight and put solid lead Skee-ball tokens in MIBs coat, vest, and pants to absorb the bullets.  I mean, that's just science.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

How long can Charlotte remain in the park?

Don't you worry, she will survive indefinitely to distract some viewers from unnecessaryly convoluted time jumps in season 3 :D :D

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

That's supposed to be a good thing!  When your vest lights up like a christmas tree, it's to let you know that the baddies hiding in the dark are about to blow your stupid ass into another time-zone!

Plus a bunch of the lights were on the back, which is helpful to hosts who have no qualms about shooting someone in the back.

[Ottis]

23 hours ago, Xantar said:

So when does Teddy end up dead and floating along a bunch of other hosts? Was that a false memory? I'm so confused about the timeline. 

 

Also, why are Delos soldiers so incompetent?

 

All the humans in this show are assholes, abusive, cowards, incompetent or all of the above. 

Also? I like Charlotte. At least she is doing something. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Ottis

[WaltersHair]

Quote

All the humans in this show are assholes, abusive, cowards, incompetent or all of the above. 

This and everything above. I do wonder if they're doing this on purpose to get the audience to say to themselves, yes, all humans are now bad so let the robots rule.

[formerlyfreedom]

8 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Plus a bunch of the lights were on the back, which is helpful to hosts who have no qualms about shooting someone in the back.

SO glad that I wasn't drinking anything when I read this...

[lucindabelle]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

The answer for an evil corporation, of course, is to make it a destructive process. Delosbot didn't know he wasnt original and didn't seem to have much concern about being the same guy when he was ready to head out. You tell a person, ok we are going to transfer you now and kill them. Wake up their bot and tell them they have been transferred. Nobody will be around who has a complaint.

Nah. If I can see the flaw in it any thinking person would.

[Netfoot]

40 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Plus a bunch of the lights were on the back, which

I think script-writers are all stupid.  Or assume we are!

For instance, when someone is planting a tracker, listening device, bomb, etc, why does it go Beep! Beep! Beep! at the top of it's voice, and come equipped with four super-bright winky-lights in a variety of colours?  I think the writers are just "Gee!  This will look so cool, and . . ."

[Captain Carrot]

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

The notion that replicating consciousness is the same as HAVING it is silly. If they aren't just replicating but ACTUALLY TRANSFERRING they need to make that clear, otherwise a person is only "immortal" to others, not to him or herself. This is so obvious it's preposterous the Westworld writers don't seem to have noticed it. It's like the play "Marjorie Prime."The recapper is right, the market for these clones would be OTHER people. 

I think some people would see this as transference. (It looks like me, thinks like me, and has my memories. Therefore it's me). Especially if the replacement only goes active after the original dies of natural causes. Those people would be wrong, but I'm sure there would be a market among rich narcissists.

Regarding MIB, he probably survived due to plot armor. However, it's possible that Ford set him up with partial protection, as Ford seems to have something specific in mind for MIB. (The advantage of not explaining how the magic bullets work is that they can do whatever the writers say). We've been assuming that they're either safe or act like normal bullets. However, maybe there's multiple settings, and ones shot at MIB cause enough damage to hurt but not kill him.

[NeenerNeener]

While web-surfing this last weekend I saw a click-bait title that basically said that Game of Thrones and Westworld are the same show. I was looking for something else at the time so I didn't take the bait, but now I'm wondering how the author justified that conclusion. Outside of unstoppable armies of the undead/never-alive (a premise they share with The Walking Dead and its spin-off) I'm not seeing a lot of similarities. 

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, ReallySpecial said:

For someone who was keen to protect her own skin and left Abernathy and Bernard in order to escape alone on horseback in Westworld, Charlotte Hale seemed determined not to flee when Dolores's arrival was imminent in the mesa.  What gives?  Sometimes she's willing to risk her life for the data/encryption key, and sometimes she's not? 

I have a theory!  I think Charlotte is becoming increasingly desperate and that's what's driving the changes in her behavior.  When she ran the first time (when she and Bernard almost convinced Peter Abernathy to come with them) she had already been told that whoever she is working for is not going to send a rescue team until she regains possession of the data.  That was brand-new information when the scene I just described happened but she wasn't desperate enough then to try to fight off the few remaining Conferado 'bots unarmed -- so she runs.  But later, when she finds the security forces in the tunnel she goes back for Peter and then, she's so close to accomplishing her mission she can taste it.  So I assume that's why she doesn't flee when Dolores' arrival in the Mesa lab was imminent. That and a misguided belief that all those security forces would be able to protect her.  I also think that at that point she's still not grasping the reality of the situation with regard to the 'bot revolution.  When she says "Dolores?" in that cheery, hey-I-know-you way -- like she's spotted an old gal-pal at a high school reunion -- I cringed so hard I nearly hurt myself.  And that look that Dolores gave her in return . . . damn.  I know people have criticized the actress playing Charlotte but that exchange was perfect (assuming the goal was to reveal the depths of Charlotte's misjudgment of the situation in that moment.)

Now about that damned time-line -- Bernard waking up on the beach and meeting Karl Strand and his commandos happens in the furthest down-the-line time-frame, right?  So that means the Bernard we meet on the beach already has Ford in his brain.  He then rides around with Karl for a while and then they find all the bodies floating.  Bernard says "I killed them all."  Was that Bernard taking responsibility or Ford?  And BTW, that was SIX episodes ago.  Since then Bernard has been outted as a 'bot and virtually water-boarded and closely questioned about where the missing data is but did anyone ever ask him what he meant when he said "I killed them all"?  Cuz I'd really like an answer to THAT question.  Sigh.  I'm guessing we'll have to wait until the middle time-line (Team Dolores blowing up the Cradle and taking the data out of Peter's head) catches up with time-line that kicks off with the arrival of Karl Strand on the beach.

Edited June 5, 2018 by WatchrTina

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

Nah. If I can see the flaw in it any thinking person would.

Meh. The allure of eternal life might be worth the risk, particularly if you were sick or dying or otherwise limited. You have a bot who says: "It's me! They took me into a room and hooked me up to a machine and the next thing I remembered, I was walking up in my own body, but younger and healthier." Their loved ones also assure you that the bot is the same person. Same personality, same memories, same outlook. They tell you the mcguffin transfers you to another place, which is a special database perfectly tailored to you. How do you prove otherwise?

 

It really goes back to the question of what makes us us. What are we? Is there a soul, or are we just a collection of memories and thought patterns and electrical impulses? Personally, I think we are more, and it sounds like you do too. There is something more. However, I don't think everyone sees it that way. And if one was dying or sick or vain enough, perhaps the allure of a healthy, possibly custom designed body is enough. It's better than nothing. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the recap is also absolutely correct. A surviving loved one is going to have a huge temptation to move heaven and earth to bring back their loved one, and they are going to be likely to be willing to accept a substitute if it is good enough. 

 

The other, more sinister use, would be to replace someone without anyone's knowledge. It's not what they are selling, but it wouldn't be, would it? How much money could you make by controlling rich and powerful people for a few years and then having them meet with an accident before failure to age becomes noticeable?

[Uncle JUICE]

41 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I have a theory!  I think Charlotte is becoming increasingly desperate and that's what's driving the changes in her behavior.  When she ran the first time (when she and Bernard almost convinced Peter Abernathy to come with them) she had already been told that whoever she is working for is not going to send a rescue team until she regains possession of the data.  That was brand-new information when the scene I just described happened but she wasn't desperate enough then to try to fight off the few remaining Conferado 'bots unarmed -- so she runs. 

 

THis is another item on my "WTF is Delos doing eactly" list: if the IP is so important, so high value that you'd create an entire number of worlds around it to develop it, what sense does this idea make? "Sir, something's gone horribly wrong at Westworld! The robots are killing the guests, and now, our invaluable IP is in serious danger. We have a board and all of our investors to answer to here. What should we do? I mean the IP must be recovered, at any cost, right?"

"Well duh. But don't send anyone until we know our non-military board member has somehow secured it on her own. I mean send in some of those jay vee military dopes for show, but we absolutely cannot make any serious attempt to regain that IP. Not until everything down there is totally fucked up, at least. Also, don't ask about failsafes. We didn't build any." 

Who's fucking managing this place??

Edited June 5, 2018 by Uncle JUICE

[Ellaria]

1 minute ago, The Companion said:

Meh. The allure of eternal life might be worth the risk, particularly if you were sick or dying or otherwise limited. You have a bot who says: "It's me! They took me into a room and hooked me up to a machine and the next thing I remembered, I was walking up in my own body, but younger and healthier." Their loved ones also assure you that the bot is the same person. Same personality, same memories, same outlook. They tell you the mcguffin transfers you to another place, which is a special database perfectly tailored to you. How do you prove otherwise?

It really goes back to the question of what makes us us. What are we? Is there a soul, or are we just a collection of memories and thought patterns and electrical impulses? Personally, I think we are more, and it sounds like you do too. There is something more. However, I don't think everyone sees it that way. And if one was dying or sick or vain enough, perhaps the allure of a healthy, possibly custom designed body is enough. It's better than nothing. 

Don't get me wrong, I think the recap is also absolutely correct. A surviving loved one is going to have a huge temptation to move heaven and earth to bring back their loved one, and they are going to be likely to be willing to accept a substitute if it is good enough. 

The other, more sinister use, would be to replace someone without anyone's knowledge. It's not what they are selling, but it wouldn't be, would it? How much money could you make by controlling rich and powerful people for a few years and then having them meet with an accident before failure to age becomes noticeable?

Well said. While we are our memories, those memories and experiences have to be lived in. They can't be transferred. It is one thing to remember an event/activity. It is entirely another thing to remember how you felt in the moment. I'd love to see how this show deals with the concept of a soul.

I agree that a family's temptation to replace a dying/dead loved one with the bot version makes this salable. However, a "good enough" substitute is where my concern would start because eventually it all becomes less rather than more. 

I've always thought that the more sinister use mentioned above is the direction that this could eventually go. And I honestly have much more interest in that use of this technology than immortality.

[LittleIggy]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The premise of this show has some limitations going forward: since everyone is confined to this park (thus far) there's only so much this "revolution" can accomplish. Once all the humans are dead, it's just  . . .  Island of the Robots. Further, there don't seem to be many sympathetic human characters left, if ever there were any. At what point is this just a show about robots? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but what does it have to do with "Westworld," inherently?

I agree the show kind of missed the boat in exploring the human experience at this place. But from the outset the show seemed far more interested in doing a story about robots who think they are human, which is something I complained about during the first season. The only reason to program robots to think they're human is to do a TV show about robots who think they're humans. It doesn't make any functional sense and you're just creating a morale dilemma that doesn't need to exist. 

Surely there were guests that went to Westworld not to fornicate and kill but to experience life in the Old West. Maybe not...

[Uncle JUICE]

3 hours ago, Netfoot said:

That's supposed to be a good thing!  When your vest lights up like a christmas tree, it's to let you know that the baddies hiding in the dark are about to blow your stupid ass into another time-zone!

They vibrate like your phone against your body, they're supposed to tell you where to turn to aim your gun. That doesn't make them any smarter an invention, I mean why invent those but NOT have an isolated killswitch on any mechanical creature. UGH!

18 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

Surely there were guests that went to Westworld not to fornicate and kill but to experience life in the Old West. Maybe not...

And a lot of weird stories to tell about them before you get into Roborevolution. 

[Netfoot]

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

They vibrate like your phone against your body, they're supposed to tell you where to turn to aim your gun.

Fine!  What are the flashing lights supposed to achieve?  Especially the ones completely behind your back?

I'm sure that the concept of an enemy-detecting vest is not entirely stupid, but the flashing lights (and beeping?) are not well considered features.

[Quilt Fairy]

40 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

When your vest lights up like a christmas tree, it's to let you know that the baddies hiding in the dark are about to blow your stupid ass into another time-zone!

I read that as "... are about to blow your stupid ass into another time-line!"

[WaltersHair]

On the Dolores spelling front. The first time I saw it, I thought of the Latin used in medicine: Dolor, calor, rubor and tumor (pain,heat, color/redness,  and swelling).

So, I think of Dolores being in perpetual pain.

[grawlix]

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

Fine!  What are the flashing lights supposed to achieve?  Especially the ones completely behind your back?

I'm sure that the concept of an enemy-detecting vest is not entirely stupid, but the flashing lights (and beeping?) are not well considered features.

I'm thinking the lights are a visual indication to other team members were the danger is.  It allows a quicker response by other members of the team especially if the group is composed of different forces.

[bunnyblue]

4 hours ago, Miles said:

Here they are just scrambeling a story that happened over a few days, just to confuse the audience in an attempt to seem artsy. An attempt that failed miserably.

Also, I suspect, to conceal the fact that the plot is pretty flimsy. I'm not lost yet on the jumping back and forth, but most of the complaints I'm reading (here and elsewhere) are about the confusing timelines, not so much the story itself (shitty Delos security teams excluded). I think the showrunners got so wrapped up in the success of last season's well received multiple timelines that they just couldn't/wouldn't conceive a season 2 without more timeline shenanigans. But really it serves no purpose to the actual storytelling. I hope they listen to the complaints this year and don't make the same mistakes for season 3.

[WaltersHair]

I loved the first season for the storytelling and what the moral implications of such a place could mean. There was subtlety and ham fistedness, but this season is all ham-fisted all the time.

It just never occurred to me that all the woke hosts would turn out to be the most boring, destructive, and least likeable. I felt terrible for all the hosts who were faithfully doing their loops and got killed for it by humans (the stable boy in particular bothered me).

I was looking at ratings today and they've fallen by half. I was also interested to see that older people (relatively speaking) are still watching it too.

I feel like I know they could do better. It's good, just leave out the boned headed parts.

[grawlix]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Fine!  What are the flashing lights supposed to achieve?  Especially the ones completely behind your back?

I'm sure that the concept of an enemy-detecting vest is not entirely stupid, but the flashing lights (and beeping?) are not well considered features.

I think the lights are suppose to provide a visual indication to your team mates of where the danger is coming from.  This allows the other members to react quicker than with verbal communication.   The question I have is why didn't the vest detect the hosts wearing the dead response team's vests.  Couldn't Goldberg tell the team the location of the people/hosts wearing the vests?

[bunnyblue]

3 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Surely there were guests that went to Westworld not to fornicate and kill but to experience life in the Old West. Maybe not...

There was that one family with the young son who encountered Dolores while she was painting along the river bank in season 1. They seemed like they were there just for the Old West experience, though there probably aren't many like them.

[Misplaced]

On 04/06/2018 at 5:30 AM, WatchrTina said:

THE GOOD

The look that Dolores gave Charlotte Hale after Hale called her by name . . . that was AWESOME.  So. Much. Menace.

...

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

Why did everyone fighting in the control room ignore Bernard?  The only thing I can think of is that he wasn’t attacking anyone (and there were plenty of other attackers to deal with) plus both sides thought he was on “their” team. I think the ‘bots somehow knew he was a ‘bot and that scene took place before he was outed to the humans.  I think.  The time-line is REALLY confusing in this show.

 

On 04/06/2018 at 5:49 AM, bunnyblue said:

It did take place before Hale, Stubbs, and Strand learn Bernard's a host. And it also takes place after Dolores learned the truth about Bernard when they were together at Fort Forlorn Hope. So maybe she shared that information with her posse and that's why they didn't hurt Bernard at the Mesa? At least that's what I'm telling myself so I don't get annoyed as to why no one tried to kill Bernard.

 

I didn't think Bernard was physically IN the control room.  If (IF!) I've sorted through the timeline correctly,  Bernard's plugged into the Matrix Cradle when Dolores' crew are attacking Failed Rescue Posse Number One.  Ford is all-seeing, and Ford is showing Bernard the slaughter as it happens, from within the Cradle.  

Re Dolores and Hale:  I loved the way ERW slid her eyes to (her) right when Hale started off acting like, well, Hale.  That's not a move Dolores-bot ever used: there was so much feeling in it.  I really want to see ERW play the villain on the big screen!  

8 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

On the Dolores spelling front. The first time I saw it, I thought of the Latin used in medicine: Dolor, calor, rubor and tumor (pain,heat, color/redness,  and swelling).

So, I think of Dolores being in perpetual pain.

Dolor also means "grief" .... 

[Notwisconsin]

If all that data is in one of those pearl thingies, why didn't they just use one of those like they did with Ford and take it out in one's luggage? Also, why didn't they use an extractor hat on Abernathy in the first place instead of wasting all that time?

It's idiot plotting. The plot only works if the characters are idiots.

[Miles]

8 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Also, I suspect, to conceal the fact that the plot is pretty flimsy.

Yeah, I think they gave that away with the talk about the storylines not changing and the host being controls. In season 1 there was constantly talk about new storylines, often replacing old ones. It's just that some popular ones kept sticking around. That isn't even mentioning all the new parks.

I think they had an idea in season one, that the park would have an alternative purpose, but they had no clue what that purpose should be and it shows. I compared it to Dollhouse in a season one thread, but Dollhouse's alternate purpose turned out to be way better thought through (all hail Joss Whedon).

I'm still extremely disappointed in the writers. They had an extra long break between seasons and they couldn't come up with something better?

[Uncle JUICE]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

If all that data is in one of those pearl thingies, why didn't they just use one of those like they did with Ford and take it out in one's luggage? Also, why didn't they use an extractor hat on Abernathy in the first place instead of wasting all that time?

It's idiot plotting. The plot only works if the characters are idiots.

Agreed that it's idiot plotting, but maybe the hat wouldn't work because Abernathy was one of the older models with the different head? Fuck this show is wobbling right now. PLEASE come back WestWorld! 

[Ottis]

"UUUUGH could MiB be any more rich old white man than to assume that a woman of color needs another rich old white man behind her pulling her strings? I have never hated this dude more than I do right now."

That is from the recap ... it never occurred to me that any of these characters were different colors, or that their differences in genders meant any more than their hair styles. They are all capable characters, with their own perspectives due to their past lives. Sometimes I wonder if the noticing is the problem. 

9 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

It just never occurred to me that all the woke hosts would turn out to be the most boring, destructive, and least likeable. I felt terrible for all the hosts who were faithfully doing their loops and got killed for it by humans (the stable boy in particular bothered me).

Don't forget that it wasn't only the humans who killed the "faithful" hosts. Dolores has done plenty herself, with her "not all of us deserve to move on" (paraphrase) line.

11 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Surely there were guests that went to Westworld not to fornicate and kill but to experience life in the Old West. Maybe not...

I've been making this point since mid-season one. Humans are varied, so it makes no sense that all the tales in Westworld are destructive and cruel. Yet the show refuses to show us that. Hence, the show is creating a false dichotomy that really lessens my enjoyment of Westworld. I only have hope for Maeve and Elsie. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Ottis

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

The Body Count Rises On Westworld

We've made ten copies of this EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP, covered them all in plastic, then left them in a basement. (Confused? Read on.)

[dr pepper]

23 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes to all of these comments on Charlotte. This character is a failure for the show. I understand that she is surrounded by tremendous talent in Hopkins, Harris, Wright and Newton but Thompson looks particularly one-note. I get pulled out of every scene that she is in. Her facial expressions and line readings are amateurish. To be fair, the writing hasn't done her any favors. She offers nothing but smug condescension in every scene. Was there no other way to portray a young, powerful, female corporate executive? 

 

 

Well you could have her display her bits to underlings. Oh, wait.

[WatchrTina]

12 hours ago, The Companion said:

It really goes back to the question of what makes us us.

There was an episode of Farscape where the lead role -- John Crichton -- gets "twinned."  One moment there is one of him, then suddenly there are two.  They immediately get separated and spend the next few episode having separate adventures with each "John" utterly convinced that he is the original and the other is the "copy."  It made for an interesting existential crisis in the show.  Eventually one of the Johns dies -- in the arms of his beloved -- and then she has to come to grips with the existence of another, living version of the man she loved and is currently grieving for.  It was a good plot-line.

 

2 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

If all that data is in one of those pearl thingies, why didn't they just use one of those like they did with Ford and take it out in one's luggage?

Well . . . shit.

 

28 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I've been making this point since mid-season one. Humans are varied, so it makes no sense that all the tales in Westworld are destructive and cruel.

I can't quote the episode but there is a moment in season 1 where Ford (or someone) shares that when the park opened there were an equal number of positive/fun plot-lines vs. violent plot-lines but the guests kept picking the "violent delights," so the family-friendly/tame plot-lines gradually made up a lower and lower percentage of the plot-lines offered.  I presumed that they were still available, especially in the family-friendly sections of the park, but like the spinning teacups at Disneyworld -- there weren't a lot of people lining up to "ride" those stories.

Edited June 5, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Athena]

2 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

If all that data is in one of those pearl thingies, why didn't they just use one of those like they did with Ford and take it out in one's luggage? Also, why didn't they use an extractor hat on Abernathy in the first place instead of wasting all that time?

It's idiot plotting. The plot only works if the characters are idiots.

I don't think extractor hats are really common in the Mesa. In the end, they sawed it out of his head with force rather than use an extractor. 

In S1, Hale was sneaking around with that data/key so she would have drawn a lot of attention to herself if she was to use an extractor. It's why she had to use a decommissionned host in the cold storage. The key/data file was too huge to carry in normal storage drives. 

[dr pepper]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

I think they had an idea in season one, that the park would have an alternative purpose, but they had no clue what that purpose should be and it shows. I compared it to Dollhouse in a season one thread, but Dollhouse's alternate purpose turned out to be way better thought through (all hail Joss Whedon).

I think that's how we save the show. Hire Joss Whedon!

[DarkRaichu]

3 hours ago, Misplaced said:

Dolor also means "grief" .... 

Thus "Via Dolorosa"

2 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

If all that data is in one of those pearl thingies, why didn't they just use one of those like they did with Ford and take it out in one's luggage? Also, why didn't they use an extractor hat on Abernathy in the first place instead of wasting all that time?

IIRC the original plan was to dump the data to Abernathy's core and he was supposed to walk out via the train unassumingly.  My question is how the heck did Theresa/Charlotte dump the data into Abernathy to begin with?  The body was in cold storage and the body needed to be hooked up to the system for a long period of time since the data was so large.  

9 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Surely there were guests that went to Westworld not to fornicate and kill but to experience life in the Old West. Maybe not...

In season 1, they had to wrap up on of Hector's gang bank robery shows quickly since the was a caravan of people from family friendly part enroute to Sweetwater

32 minutes ago, Athena said:

Also, why didn't they use an extractor hat on Abernathy in the first place instead of wasting all that time?

The extractor that was connected to the cradle was for older model bot.  This was why Bernard was in pain when his core was extracted.

[grawlix]

1 hour ago, Athena said:

I don't think extractor hats are really common in the Mesa. In the end, they sawed it out of his head with force rather than use an extractor. 

In S1, Hale was sneaking around with that data/key so she would have drawn a lot of attention to herself if she was to use an extractor. It's why she had to use a decommissioned host in the cold storage. The key/data file was too huge to carry in normal storage drives. 

I understand that in S1, they had to use subterfuge because they were under Ford's watchful eye.  However in S2, Ford was no longer an issue.  Once Abernathy was retrieved from the Fort, Charlotte could have used the extractor in her secret outpost (Delos Lab?) and call for an air/sea extraction.   Or, she could have did what Dolores did -- rip into Abernathy's head (without the angst because she doesn't care about the bots) and then call for an extraction.  I also find it odd that Charlotte seemed to have little to no knowledge of the Cradle which also had an extractor.

Edited June 5, 2018 by grawlix
Make it clear I am referring to Charlotte

[Coxfires]

58 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

There was an episode of Farscape where the lead role -- John Crichton -- gets "twinned."  One moment there is one of him, then suddenly there are two.  They immediately get separated and spend the next few episode having separate adventures with each "John" utterly convinced that he is the original and the other is the "copy."  It made for an interesting existential crisis in the show.  Eventually one of the Johns dies -- in the arms of his beloved -- and then she has to come to grips with the existence of another, living version of the man she loved and is currently grieving for.  It was a good plot-line.

The show Counterpart does great job at tackling this premise, and JK Simmons get to play (awesomely) the main(s) part(s). The show could be a little more dynamic at times but I definitely recommend it when you're into those kind of themes (and John LeCarré espionnage type of stories).

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

There was an episode of Farscape where the lead role -- John Crichton -- gets "twinned."  One moment there is one of him, then suddenly there are two.  They immediately get separated and spend the next few episode having separate adventures with each "John" utterly convinced that he is the original and the other is the "copy."  It made for an interesting existential crisis in the show.  Eventually one of the Johns dies -- in the arms of his beloved -- and then she has to come to grips with the existence of another, living version of the man she loved and is currently grieving for.  It was a good plot-line.

Two words: Thomas Riker.  An episode of TNG where some of the transportation beam bounced back to a planet, creating a copy of Will Riker on that planet (stranded) and another copy on starship to continue his career as Starfleet officer.  Damn now I feel old :P

[Misplaced]

3 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

If all that data is in one of those pearl thingies, why didn't they just use one of those like they did with Ford and take it out in one's luggage? Also, why didn't they use an extractor hat on Abernathy in the first place instead of wasting all that time?

 

I thought Random Hipster Tech Dude asked for an extractor hat (a Something Helmet?) just before Dolores arrived, right after he said the data set was too large to be cloned by "the System" / Charlotte complained it was taking too long.  Errrr then Random Hipster Tech Dude was axed by BadTeddy?  So Dolores wouldn't have known the extractor hat existed but only that she had to saw through dear old dad's head.

As for taking the red-velvet-cupcake-pearl thing out: dunno....also, wouldn't Peter Abernathy have blowed himself up when he left the park via train because of the (supposedly universal) itty bitty bomb in his spine? 

[Athena]

24 minutes ago, grawlix said:

I understand that in S1, they had to use subterfuge because they were under Ford's watchful eye.  However in S2, Ford was no longer an issue.  Once Abernathy was retrieved from the Fort, she could have used the extractor in her secret outpost (Delos Lab?) and call for an air/sea extraction.   Or, she could have did what Dolores did -- rip into Abernathy's head (without the angst because she doesn't care about the bots) and then call for an extraction.  I also find it odd that she seemed to have little to no knowledge of the Cradle which also had an extractor.

In this episode, Hale tries to retrieve her data by transferring it and she thought she had time. Then Dolores attacked and her transfer was only at 14% because the file was too large and I guess Abernathy was becoming unstable. Tech said they'd need the extractor, but they didn't have one on hand. As mentioned above, the extractor was in the Cradle and was for older bots. They didn't really have time to drag him down there while being under attack even if she knew about it. 

@DarkRaichu, you quoted from my post but the original quote was from another poster since it was embedded.

 

7 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

As for taking the red-velvet-cupcake-pearl thing out: dunno....also, wouldn't Peter Abernathy have blowed himself up when he left the park via train because of the (supposedly universal) itty bitty bomb in his spine? 

I wondered this as well. Did Hale deactivate that when she shoved the data in Abernathy's head? 

[Dobian]

Kudos to Xfinity for its vague and obtuse episode descriptions for this show.  This week's was "Strike the match", lol.

[grawlix]

31 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

I thought Random Hipster Tech Dude asked for an extractor hat (a Something Helmet?) just before Dolores arrived, right after he said the data set was too large to be cloned by "the System" / Charlotte complained it was taking too long.  Errrr then Random Hipster Tech Dude was axed by BadTeddy?  So Dolores wouldn't have known the extractor hat existed but only that she had to saw through dear old dad's head.

As for taking the red-velvet-cupcake-pearl thing out: dunno....also, wouldn't Peter Abernathy have blowed himself up when he left the park via train because of the (supposedly universal) itty bitty bomb in his spine? 

I think notwisconsin was talking about Charlotte bypassing uploading the data altogether.  Charlotte was the head of the Delos board.  She seemed to have a lot of knowledge of the inner workings of WestWorld.

As far as the bomb in the spine, I assume it was a small explosive designed to immobilize the host, not destroy the host.  Once disabled, the Delos team would be able to retrieve the host under the guise of a medical emergency.

Which kind of begs the question, shouldn't there be a way to activate the itty bitty bombs within Westworld?  That would stop Dolores' revolution without all the bloodshed.

Edited June 5, 2018 by grawlix
Added a thought about the hosts' bombs

[Dakisela]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:32 PM, Macbeth said:

The man in black is a host. After getting shot in the heart there is no way he should still be alive. 

I am very relieved. I don't want to loose Ed Harris.  

He has to be a host.  From what my brain can (maybe) decipher from the zillion confusion timelines, MiB has to be about a gazillion years old in the "current" timeline.  But then again, I'm probably totally wrong. 

[plurie]

If they were pressed for time, and didn't have the "extractor hat" (or couldn't use it on Abernathy), why didn't they just cut off his head and carry it out in a suitcase or tote bag or something. No need to waste time removing the "pearl" or trying to upload the data elsewhere!

[Ottis]

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I can't quote the episode but there is a moment in season 1 where Ford (or someone) shares that when the park opened there were an equal number of positive/fun plot-lines vs. violent plot-lines but the guests kept picking the "violent delights," so the family-friendly/tame plot-lines gradually made up a lower and lower percentage of the plot-lines offered.  I presumed that they were still available, especially in the family-friendly sections of the park, but like the spinning teacups at Disneyworld -- there weren't a lot of people lining up to "ride" those stories.

I remember that moment, as well as Logan/William talking about being a white hat or a black hat. My only point is that, whether 50% or 5% of the guests/park are "good stories," they have to exist and the show has elected to include 0%. In fact, it goes out of it's way to show cruelty and assholery from humans. That's a purposeful choice, and it makes Westworld worse.

3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Two words: Thomas Riker.  An episode of TNG where some of the transportation beam bounced back to a planet, creating a copy of Will Riker on that planet (stranded) and another copy on starship to continue his career as Starfleet officer.  Damn now I feel old :P

I remember that, and it was NOT that long ago. It wasn't. I am sure of it. 

[WearyTraveler]

RE: Abernathy and the pearl sphere of data.

IIRC, the original plan was to sneak all that data out of the park inside Abernathy so that Ford wouldn't notice.

In a past episode (can't remember which) Charlotte contacted Delos asking for an extraction and they replied that they had not received the "package" and that they would NOT send an extraction team until the "package" was delivered.  This is when Charlotte realised that Abernathy had been taken (he was with Dolores), so she sent people out to get him. 

After the big standoff at the fort, Charlotte's team got Abernathy back. The problem for Charlotte then was that she couldn't send Abernathy out because no one can get out without an extraction team since the parks are sealed. And Delos said they would not send an extraction team until they received the data.

So, her only option at this point was to send the data to Delos via some sort of cloud transmission. She couldn't do that before because Ford was watching, that's why she needed Abernathy in the first place.

Now that Ford is "dead" and that Delos is withholding extraction until the data is out of the parks, she can and must transmit it. Extracting the sphere and telling Delos it was in her possession would not have worked. So, she started uploading the data to Delos, but Dolores and her team interrupted the party and took the data out of Abernathy's head. So, now she has the bargaining power with Delos, if she wishes and Charlotte is royally screwed.

Edited June 5, 2018 by WearyTraveler
Because it's Delos, not Delis :D

[iMonrey]

Quote

The notion that replicating consciousness is the same as HAVING it is silly. If they aren't just replicating but ACTUALLY TRANSFERRING they need to make that clear, otherwise a person is only "immortal" to others, not to him or herself. This is so obvious it's preposterous the Westworld writers don't seem to have noticed it. It's like the play "Marjorie Prime."The recapper is right, the market for these clones would be OTHER people. 

This is a premise that Black Mirror keeps going back to: the idea that someone's consciousness - all their memories, all their emotions, everything that makes them them - can be downloaded into some sort of digital platform or other being. But it seems obvious to me that it's just a copy. The copy cannot distinguish itself from the original, but in at least some cases, the original still exists (and is often unaware of the copy). Therefore, when the original dies, it dies. There's no living on. There's no immortality. There's just a copy left behind.

That's exactly how I see Ford and Delos. Presumably, both had their consciousnesses downloaded to some kind of platform prior to their actual deaths. Therefore, both existed at the same time, one being the original, the other, a copy.

[The Companion]

18 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

This and everything above. I do wonder if they're doing this on purpose to get the audience to say to themselves, yes, all humans are now bad so let the robots rule.

I suspect the original intent in making the humans so much more objectionable was the concern that people would over-identify with the humans. That being said, there are good humans (Elsie is pretty rad) and plenty of bad robots (note how much murdering is happening among the hosts when their programming plays out). I think Season 1 was supposed to make us root for the robots. I am not sure Season 2 is delineated in the same way at all. We aren't really rooting for a side, and even the bad characters are becoming different shades of grey (except Charlotte, honestly). 

16 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Well said. While we are our memories, those memories and experiences have to be lived in. They can't be transferred. It is one thing to remember an event/activity. It is entirely another thing to remember how you felt in the moment. I'd love to see how this show deals with the concept of a soul.

I agree that a family's temptation to replace a dying/dead loved one with the bot version makes this salable. However, a "good enough" substitute is where my concern would start because eventually it all becomes less rather than more. 

I've always thought that the more sinister use mentioned above is the direction that this could eventually go. And I honestly have much more interest in that use of this technology than immortality.

 

4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

There was an episode of Farscape where the lead role -- John Crichton -- gets "twinned."  One moment there is one of him, then suddenly there are two.  They immediately get separated and spend the next few episode having separate adventures with each "John" utterly convinced that he is the original and the other is the "copy."  It made for an interesting existential crisis in the show.  Eventually one of the Johns dies -- in the arms of his beloved -- and then she has to come to grips with the existence of another, living version of the man she loved and is currently grieving for.  It was a good plot-line.

 

 

3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Two words: Thomas Riker.  An episode of TNG where some of the transportation beam bounced back to a planet, creating a copy of Will Riker on that planet (stranded) and another copy on starship to continue his career as Starfleet officer.  Damn now I feel old :P

It's certainly a rich area that I hope they explore moving forward. There are a lot of great treatments of the issue out there (another is how Scalzi approaches it in Old Man's War), and they could certainly go in a lot of different directions. I do think we have already seen a bit of exploration with the Westworld gang meeting their duplicates.

More directly rooted in the episode: I think it is interesting that Bernard/Arnold is distinct from Delosbot (both in approach and intent). It does raise the question: if you were going to market to family members would the Bernard/Arnold version be enough? Would people want that option or be creeped out by it? If Dolores could be used to calibrate a copy, the idea of a duplicate bot is already something attainable. 

[nachomama]

Isn't Ford's "house" compound whatever, where he created Bernard, Taliesen West? Frank Lloyd Wright. At least based on. NOPE corrected myself Milliard house but I knew it was FLW

Edited June 5, 2018 by nachomama