Gimme That Old Time Religion

[queenanne]

Bringing this over from Josh and Anna thread:

 

Something still doesn't feel right with this salvation business.  How would you know you are saved in the special way they seem to think they are saved.  Everybody apparently is saved.  If everybody is saved, that's it, all this special rules is unnecessary.  And a saved person would not be doing big sins like Josh has or a serial murderer or a man who starts fist fights with everybody.  Then again, all sins are the same to them, so that doesn't make any sense to me either.  To me if you loved God you'd want to help others.  You'd want their lives to improve in ways that improve access to food, health, and education and sanitation--that sort of thing.  People who don't love God because they say they don't believe manage to exhibit that behavior.  Why don't they?

 

I shall try:  You're supposed to know that you are "saved" because it's a right-in-your-heart decision you made with God after a time where a religious authority has shared with you the process.  It's a state of being, not of feeling, or else you'd be worried constantly that you hadn't "really' been saved.  (Though, aside; I've seen and I'm sure others have, already alleged born-agains who are "inspired to recommit themselves" by emotionalism every time a speaker comes around and gives an altar call; I don't really think these are in the spirit of the law either.  the Bible is also pretty clear that you're not to doubt your salvation every time you turn around either, and that doing so is a sin.)  Speakers generally batten on this description even though it's an Old Testament psalm:

 

The Lord is near to those whose hearts are humble. He saves those whose spirits are crushed.

 

Other translations call it bringing God "a broken and contrite spirit", i.e. a person at the end of their rope.  (Which, I've often thought, could be part of the problem. Sure, you can explain to a four-year-old that God has a precious gift for them; but is the four-year-old necessarily supposed to value this?  Wouldn't eternal life with your parents automatically sound knee-jerkingly great to them?)

 

You are also not supposed to spend overt amounts of time, as a layperson, thinking whether or not Josh Duggar has an actual broken and contrite spirit or heart.  That's for God to know. 

 

You can of course have opinions, and as brothers and sisters in Christ you're, the others in your congregation or his actual family members, supposed to prayerfully call a person out on these actions if you see things that look improper.  Like, if it had been other women in their church and not pornstars, if you saw Josh looking a little too cozy with a woman who was not Anna in public, after he had shown up in front of a congregation and confessed to you, you'd be supposed to have tactful words with him.  It would in fact be considered your responsibility as a fellow member of the body of Christ, to help your other members "avoid sin" when you could, by praying with them, bible studying, etc.

 

As for insular Christians, I think there are people who simply don't want to leave their comfort zone.  They'd be that way if they were Christian or non.  Being a Christian is also supposed to give you "a spirit of boldness", that's in the Bible also (too lazy to look up the verse), though mostly they mean it in the don't-be-afraid-to-proselytize manner; although they could justifiably use it for anything and everything, and should for the types of things that you're asking about.  My parents weren't outward-looking either.  I used to beg to have the out-of-town missionaries to stay for a night when they were in town, and so forth, and was denied every time - they didn't want strangers in the house, too much pressure.  I would always think, Not very Christ-like, lol.

Edited December 20, 2015 by queenanne

[GeeGolly]

Bringing this over from Josh and Anna thread:

 

 

I shall try:  You're supposed to know that you are "saved" because it's a right-in-your-heart decision you made with God after a time where a religious authority has shared with you the process.  It's a state of being, not of feeling, or else you'd be worried constantly that you hadn't "really' been saved.  (Though, aside; I've seen and I'm sure others have, already alleged born-agains who are "inspired to recommit themselves" by emotionalism every time a speaker comes around and gives an altar call; I don't really think these are in the spirit of the law either.  the Bible is also pretty clear that you're not to doubt your salvation every time you turn around either, and that doing so is a sin.)  Speakers generally batten on this description even though it's an Old Testament psalm:

 

The Lord is near to those whose hearts are humble. He saves those whose spirits are crushed.

 

Other translations call it bringing God "a broken and contrite spirit", i.e. a person at the end of their rope.  (Which, I've often thought, could be part of the problem. Sure, you can explain to a four-year-old that God has a precious gift for them; but is the four-year-old necessarily supposed to value this?  Wouldn't eternal life with your parents automatically sound knee-jerkingly great to them?)

 

You are also not supposed to spend overt amounts of time, as a layperson, thinking whether or not Josh Duggar has an actual broken and contrite spirit or heart.  That's for God to know. 

 

You can of course have opinions, and as brothers and sisters in Christ you're, the others in your congregation or his actual family members, supposed to prayerfully call a person out on these actions if you see things that look improper.  Like, if it had been other women in their church and not pornstars, if you saw Josh looking a little too cozy with a woman who was not Anna in public, after he had shown up in front of a congregation and confessed to you, you'd be supposed to have tactful words with him.  It would in fact be considered your responsibility as a fellow member of the body of Christ, to help your other members "avoid sin" when you could, by praying with them, bible studying, etc.

 

As for insular Christians, I think there are people who simply don't want to leave their comfort zone.  They'd be that way if they were Christian or non.  Being a Christian is also supposed to give you "a spirit of boldness", that's in the Bible also (too lazy to look up the verse), though mostly they mean it in the don't-be-afraid-to-proselytize manner; although they could justifiably use it for anything and everything, and should for the types of things that you're asking about.  My parents weren't outward-looking either.  I used to beg to have the out-of-town missionaries to stay for a night when they were in town, and so forth, and was denied every time - they didn't want strangers in the house, too much pressure.  I would always think, Not very Christ-like, lol.

Real question - is this belief system supposed to allow some comfort and peace? From my perspective it feels heavy and cumbersome. Or maybe it is supposed to feel that way, or only looks that way from a secular view?

[Micks Picks]

Queenanne thank you, I will think about this and try to understand.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

Real question - is this belief system supposed to allow some comfort and peace? From my perspective it feels heavy and cumbersome. Or maybe it is supposed to feel that way, or only looks that way from a secular view?

I think it's supposed to be supremely comforting, in that believers are assured of their salvation and not meant to worry about messing up and losing it. It can't be earned and it can't be taken away, so the pressure is off. There are lots of verses and hymns about resting in the promise of salvation, and the freedom of being a new creation in Christ. The expectation is that the believer's gratitude and joy will manifest in a peaceful spirit, good works, generosity, compassion, etc. There are various "spiritual gifts," and common wisdom in Christianity is that different people have different strengths -- some are more discerning and wise, others more giving and hospitable -- but all believers are expected to strive for all of the gifts. Obviously that doesn't always go well, but it can, and those are the people Christians typically look up to as role models of faith.

[GeeGolly]

I think it's supposed to be supremely comforting, in that believers are assured of their salvation and not meant to worry about messing up and losing it. It can't be earned and it can't be taken away, so the pressure is off. There are lots of verses and hymns about resting in the promise of salvation, and the freedom of being a new creation in Christ. The expectation is that the believer's gratitude and joy will manifest in a peaceful spirit, good works, generosity, compassion, etc. There are various "spiritual gifts," and common wisdom in Christianity is that different people have different strengths -- some are more discerning and wise, others more giving and hospitable -- but all believers are expected to strive for all of the gifts. Obviously that doesn't always go well, but it can, and those are the people Christians typically look up to as role models of faith.

Thank-you. Beautifully explained.

[Vaysh]

I think it's supposed to be supremely comforting, in that believers are assured of their salvation and not meant to worry about messing up and losing it. It can't be earned and it can't be taken away, so the pressure is off. There are lots of verses and hymns about resting in the promise of salvation, and the freedom of being a new creation in Christ. The expectation is that the believer's gratitude and joy will manifest in a peaceful spirit, good works, generosity, compassion, etc. There are various "spiritual gifts," and common wisdom in Christianity is that different people have different strengths -- some are more discerning and wise, others more giving and hospitable -- but all believers are expected to strive for all of the gifts. Obviously that doesn't always go well, but it can, and those are the people Christians typically look up to as role models of faith.

 

That's a lovely explanation, even from my atheist point of view. It seems to me like the Duggars are doing things just a little bit differently in this as well, because their legalism and obsession with sinning (especially other people's sinning) looks like the complete opposite of what you wrote. They seem to constantly worry about messing up and have imbibed their children with a fear of hell unless they follow all the rules. They may say they believe salvation lies in faith, not works, but everything they do point in a different direction. And I can't say I've seen much evidence of gratitude and joy in them nor any manifestations thereof.

[BradandJanet]

That's a lovely explanation, even from my atheist point of view. It seems to me like the Duggars are doing things just a little bit differently in this as well, because their legalism and obsession with sinning (especially other people's sinning) looks like the complete opposite of what you wrote. They seem to constantly worry about messing up and have imbibed their children with a fear of hell unless they follow all the rules. They may say they believe salvation lies in faith, not works, but everything they do point in a different direction. And I can't say I've seen much evidence of gratitude and joy in them nor any manifestations thereof.

 

This is my impression as well and it extends to some evangelicals I know in real life. The Old Testament god is in charge, and he is judgmental, punishing, and brutal. It is a sadly joyless version of a religion that can offer such peace and hope. 

[queenanne]

I think it's supposed to be supremely comforting, in that believers are assured of their salvation and not meant to worry about messing up and losing it. It can't be earned and it can't be taken away, so the pressure is off. There are lots of verses and hymns about resting in the promise of salvation, and the freedom of being a new creation in Christ. The expectation is that the believer's gratitude and joy will manifest in a peaceful spirit, good works, generosity, compassion, etc. There are various "spiritual gifts," and common wisdom in Christianity is that different people have different strengths -- some are more discerning and wise, others more giving and hospitable -- but all believers are expected to strive for all of the gifts. Obviously that doesn't always go well, but it can, and those are the people Christians typically look up to as role models of faith.

 

great explanation, thanks.  The problem generally seems to be, if you're not "feeling it" and plagued with doubts, or are plagued with doubts ahead of time before you make the confession of Christianity.  Most of the cautions I threw up in my post above, which may have muddied the issue, fall under the heading of those too human, or in the wrong place mentally and spiritually, to simply let go and do the trusting.

 

(Disclaimer:  I had wine (with dinner not before, heh) and possibly shouldn't try to clarify and post now. :) )

[Churchhoney]

That's a lovely explanation, even from my atheist point of view. It seems to me like the Duggars are doing things just a little bit differently in this as well, because their legalism and obsession with sinning (especially other people's sinning) looks like the complete opposite of what you wrote. They seem to constantly worry about messing up and have imbibed their children with a fear of hell unless they follow all the rules. They may say they believe salvation lies in faith, not works, but everything they do point in a different direction. And I can't say I've seen much evidence of gratitude and joy in them nor any manifestations thereof.

 

Jim Bob -- at least; maybe Michelle too -- is both stupid and sick. He's also mean and selfish. Whatever he latches onto will partake of those qualities. He wants religion to buttress his beliefs and behaviors. He's not looking to learn new beliefs and behaviors from religion. So his religion will look like him. IN other words, like what you described right here.

 

None of what goes on with the Duggars is about religion. It's about the Duggar parents' personality disorders and selfishness. Religion is just something they twist to justify what they would do anyway because they're sick people. And they love religion because it makes it easier for them to do things that all people with their sickness would like to do but find it hard to get away with.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Lemur]

Another Gothard-related sex scandal:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/21/prison-chaplain-charged-with-rape-studied-minister-accused-of-sex-abuse.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29

[Tabbygirl521]

Another Gothard-related sex scandal:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/21/prison-chaplain-charged-with-rape-studied-minister-accused-of-sex-abuse.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29

This makes my head hurt. I know scandals happen in all communities but I just imagine these Gothard jackasses justifying this stuff to themselves. Probably praying sanctimoniously for the wicked vixens who tempt them so brazenly. These repressed asses who keep perpetrating their garbage. Sorry, I am sputtering nonsensically.

[Churchhoney]

This makes my head hurt. I know scandals happen in all communities but I just imagine these Gothard jackasses justifying this stuff to themselves. Probably praying sanctimoniously for the wicked vixens who tempt them so brazenly. These repressed asses who keep perpetrating their garbage. Sorry, I am sputtering nonsensically.

 

No. You're actually sputtering sensibly.  These people will do that to you.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Fuzzysox]

Can someone please explain this to me, why is everything a "ministry?" 

 

Umm I don't get it. I'm seeing it as a trend with two of my FB friends. Is it trendy or does it really serve a purpose??? Am I not seeing it? Maybe because the Catholic I was raised just goes to church and listens to the priest. I have never experienced what these people to, go to a mega church then fellowship and play who is holier than me kinda religion.

[Lemur]

Can someone please explain this to me, why is everything a "ministry?" 

 

Umm I don't get it. I'm seeing it as a trend with two of my FB friends. Is it trendy or does it really serve a purpose??? Am I not seeing it? Maybe because the Catholic I was raised just goes to church and listens to the priest. I have never experienced what these people to, go to a mega church then fellowship and play who is holier than me kinda religion.

Because you're supposed to be serving the Lord in all of your words, thoughts and deeds and thus everything you do is a ministry as opposed to, you know, living a good, godly life.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Lemur

[louannems]

Has anyone read the book "I Fired God- How I Left The Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church"? The author's father was well thought of in their circle and a pillar of his church. He was brutally mean to his children and whipped them til adults.

[mbutterfly]

I'm sure all the violence against his children was for Jesus. Uh huh. Impossible for me to believe in any God who allegedly promotes "spare the rod, spoil the child".

There is a very solid (and consistent with context and Hebrew translations) argument that  the rod was a measuring tool -- like a yardstick. That is, if you don't give your child a moral yardstick by which to measure his behavior and choices, you are spoiling him. I know the English translation has been interpreted "give the kid a whoopin'" but this is more consistent with God's usual wisdom teaching -- and it is found in one of the Wisdom books, Proverbs. I put this not to be all teachy-preachy but because I hate for interpretations of scripture to turn people away from God. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by mbutterfly

[becca3891]

Real question - is this belief system supposed to allow some comfort and peace? From my perspective it feels heavy and cumbersome. Or maybe it is supposed to feel that way, or only looks that way from a secular view?

I do know a number of people who have complete comfort and peace, sure that heaven awaits them. In a way, I envy them, although not their closed-minded ways. Being taught that there would be a blissful eternal life and then gradually losing the ability to believe in it was a very traumatic and depressing experience for me. I think it just works better for some types of brains than others.

 

Has anyone read the book "I Fired God- How I Left The Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church"? The author's father was well thought of in their circle and a pillar of his church. He was brutally mean to his children and whipped them til adults.

Yes -- it is a wonderful book, although very difficult to read at times. This article is interesting as it relates to the author's father, who was clearly mentally ill. It raises the question of which comes first -- belief in a vengeful god, or emotional problems -- but it's troubling. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/religion-mental-health-angry-god-brain_n_3097025.html

[queenanne]

I do know a number of people who have complete comfort and peace, sure that heaven awaits them. In a way, I envy them, although not their closed-minded ways. Being taught that there would be a blissful eternal life and then gradually losing the ability to believe in it was a very traumatic and depressing experience for me. I think it just works better for some types of brains than others.

 

In my experience, those would be the ones who have no problem with the theory that God exists, in a world where you don't see him with "skin on", like the old joke.  (For those who haven't heard it, "the joke" is that the little boy is very perturbed by the loud thunderstorm, and not mollified that his parents inform him that God is with him and watching over him.  He still wants Mommy or Daddy to sit with him; because he needs protection from someone "with skin on".)

 

This also, as you know, does not always happen to be that person who is more intelligent than the rest, or who is more able to think in abstract terms than the rest.  In a way it's funny because some situations, we'd call these people the "more advanced thinkers".  If you are a nervy, high-strung person like me, you can more or less forget "trusting in God to take care of your problems", for example, because my "trust" would, and did, need about-constant renewal.  

 

Of course, then some Christians will tell you that the inability to set aside worry, makes you a bad one.

Edited January 8, 2016 by queenanne

[GeeGolly]

In my experience, those would be the ones who have no problem with the theory that God exists, in a world where you don't see him with "skin on", like the old joke.  (For those who haven't heard it, "the joke" is that the little boy is very perturbed by the loud thunderstorm, and not mollified that his parents inform him that God is with him and watching over him.  He still wants Mommy or Daddy to sit with him; because he needs protection from someone "with skin on".)

 

This also, as you know, does not always happen to be that person who is more intelligent than the rest, or who is more able to think in abstract terms than the rest.  In a way it's funny because some situations, we'd call these people the "more advanced thinkers".  If you are a nervy, high-strung person like me, you can more or less forget "trusting in God to take care of your problems", for example, because my "trust" would, and did, need about-constant renewal.  

 

Of course, then some Christians will tell you that the inability to set aside worry, makes you a bad one.

The little boy needing comfort from someone with skin on had me laughing. Too cute!

[Almost 3000]

It always perplexed me as a child that, when questioned about the many illogical aspects of religion, the explanations given made no more real sense than the initial religious premise, and THEN, upon questioning the explanation, I was told (in a tone that implied I was somehow deficient for being unable and/or unwilling to accept the nonsensical premise and its explanation), "JUST TAKE IT ON FAITH!" As a child I worried I was somehow born morally lacking as evidenced by my brain being unable to blindly accept religious 'truth'. It was so liberating as an adult, who continued to wrestle with my religious teachings, to finally realize ONE PERSON'S RELIGIOUS 'TRUTH' IS ANOTHER PERSON'S MERE PSYCHO-RELIGIOUS PSYChOBABBLE, and that acceptance or refusal to accept these concepts does not measure a person's worth or morality.

Growing up Missouri Synod Lutheran w/ KJV Bible, I always knew I didn't feel Christian. In second grade the teacher asked a question that the answer to was "Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior" after I answered it correctly the teacher asked me why. I said, because its the answer you wanted. I do have to say though that studying why certain religions weren't the true faith gave me a pretty good rule of thumb for questioning any group that's crossed my path. My rule of thumb is: If you have to in any way go though a any being, human or spaghetti monster or jump through earthly hoops to have a relationship with God, its a cult. I'm actually continually blown away by the destructive power of many religions and the masses of people that follow them.

[Skittl1321]

Question: If the promise of 'everlasting life in heaven', that is, immortality, were removed from religion, how many humans would maintain their ties to their religious beliefs?

 

It seems like that is the entire appeal of religion.

Having lost a baby, the idea that I may get to see him again is the only thing that ties me to religion. I feel like I have to believe somehow I will see my son again. It's just too horrific to think of otherwise. Even if it is completely delusional, it keeps me going.  But I just can't figure out which religion it ties me too. Because I just cannot get behind the hateful God so many others seem to believe in while claiming him to be loving.

[lookeyloo]

It seems like that is the entire appeal of religion.

Having lost a baby, the idea that I may get to see him again is the only thing that ties me to religion. I feel like I have to believe somehow I will see my son again. It's just too horrific to think of otherwise. Even if it is completely delusional, it keeps me going.  But I just can't figure out which religion it ties me too. Because I just cannot get behind the hateful God so many others seem to believe in while claiming him to be loving.

Skittl1321 - sending hugs for what they are worth.  Question - do we need to be tied to a religion to believe we will see our loved ones again?  I identify with a religion culturally, but, am agnostic, I think, but, still hold out the belief (hope?) that I will see my baby brother who killed himself 13 years ago.  Very confusing to me.  But I remain hopeful (or is that faithful?)  Mr. lookeyloo was raised very Catholic, Jesuit schooling, church every week, etc.  In his preteens he pretty much gave up the belief system and had to go along with it all because he was a kid.  But, as soon as he was on his own, he ditched it all, and can't accept that a god would be so cruel and hateful, so wants to believe there is none.

[Churchhoney]

Question: If the promise of 'everlasting life in heaven', that is, immortality, were removed from religion, how many humans would maintain their ties to their religious beliefs?

 

I don't think that many would. But that reliance on "immortality" always kind of makes me laugh, too. Some of the people I know who hold it seem pretty bored and slow-moving in the limited lifespan they believe they've got as fleshy creatures on this planet. What the heck they're going to do for all eternity is a headscratcher, if you ask me?

 

Of course, I know it's just fear that makes them want not to die. But still -- I don't know how many have actually tried to contemplate what an eternity of just praising God would be like. I think a lot of people would sleep through most of that.

[MarysWetBar]

It seems like that is the entire appeal of religion.

Having lost a baby, the idea that I may get to see him again is the only thing that ties me to religion. I feel like I have to believe somehow I will see my son again. It's just too horrific to think of otherwise. Even if it is completely delusional, it keeps me going.  But I just can't figure out which religion it ties me too. Because I just cannot get behind the hateful God so many others seem to believe in while claiming him to be loving.

Off topic totally, but every time I see your username, it makes me crave Skittles. Almost enough to wander off to find some.

But I do enjoy reading a lot, so it's just like I have multiple personalities. Eat candy? Stay here? Go research on the internet? 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

 

ETA: Deepest sympathies on the loss of your son. I, too, lost an infant son, so can relate with anyone who has indeed walked that path.

Edited January 8, 2016 by MarysWetBar

[Churchhoney]

It seems like that is the entire appeal of religion.

Having lost a baby, the idea that I may get to see him again is the only thing that ties me to religion. I feel like I have to believe somehow I will see my son again. It's just too horrific to think of otherwise. Even if it is completely delusional, it keeps me going.  But I just can't figure out which religion it ties me too. Because I just cannot get behind the hateful God so many others seem to believe in while claiming him to be loving.

 

I'm very sorry about your son. ... Have you thought about Quakers/Friends? That's about as much of a comforting faith as I can think of.

[GeeGolly]

So so sorry Skittl.

 

What I don't understand is, if there is a God, an all loving one, do people really think that one has to be a believer to be allowed into a peaceful after life?

 

I just can't imagine an all powerful entity, that would have earthly requirements for after death.

[kalamac]

Question: If the promise of 'everlasting life in heaven', that is, immortality, were removed from religion, how many humans would maintain their ties to their religious beliefs?

I've been told by someone that if I didn't turn away from my unnatural lifestyle and live the way God wants me to, I won't get eternal life in heaven after I die (I'm a woman who likes women). My response was "why would I want to spend an endless afterlife with a God who didn't want me to be happy and loved while I was still alive."

I'm not religious, but it seems odd to me that anyone would want to live forever with someone who makes them fearful all the time. And the fearful ones, like the Duggars, are the ones who seem to be trying to convert the most people. People who believe in God and that he loves everyone usually have a much more accepting "live and let live" mentality.

Edited January 8, 2016 by kalamac

[Tabbygirl521]

I've been told by someone that if I didn't turn away from my unnatural lifestyle and live the way God wants me to, I won't get eternal life in heaven after I die (I'm a woman who likes women). My response was "why would I want to spend an endless afterlife with a God who didn't want me to be happy and loved while I was still alive."

I'm not religious, but it seems odd to me that anyone would want to live forever with someone who makes them fearful all the time. And the fearful ones, like the Duggars, are the ones who seem to be trying to convert the most people. People who believe in God and that he loves everyone usually have a much more accepting "live and let live" mentality.

Better the god you know than the devil you don't, I guess. But seriously, I agree with you. Some religions are God as this nasty old man that displays all the horrible characteristics that we as humans are supposed to rise above. Makes no sense to me.

[Churchhoney]

Better the god you know than the devil you don't, I guess. But seriously, I agree with you. Some religions are God as this nasty old man that displays all the horrible characteristics that we as humans are supposed to rise above. Makes no sense to me.

 

"And lo, they created God in their own image."    That's a key passage from the book of Men-esis.

[NewDigs]

It seems like that is the entire appeal of religion.

Having lost a baby, the idea that I may get to see him again is the only thing that ties me to religion. I feel like I have to believe somehow I will see my son again. It's just too horrific to think of otherwise. Even if it is completely delusional, it keeps me going.  But I just can't figure out which religion it ties me too. Because I just cannot get behind the hateful God so many others seem to believe in while claiming him to be loving.

I'm very sorry about your son. ... Have you thought about Quakers/Friends? That's about as much of a comforting faith as I can think of.

So so sorry Skittl.

 

What I don't understand is, if there is a God, an all loving one, do people really think that one has to be a believer to be allowed into a peaceful after life?

 

I just can't imagine an all powerful entity, that would have earthly requirements for after death.

While Buddhism can at times pose as many questions as it might answer it is a gentle accepting religion.

"The Buddha said of death: Life is a journey. Death is a return to earth. The universe is like an inn. The passing years are like dust. Regard this phantom world As a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, A flash of lightning in a summer cloud, A flickering lamp - a phantom - and a dream"

So sorry for the grief of loss that many are feeling. It is a difficult journey.

Wishing you peace.

[queenanne]

It always perplexed me as a child that, when questioned about the many illogical aspects of religion, the explanations given made no more real sense than the initial religious premise, and THEN, upon questioning the explanation, I was told (in a tone that implied I was somehow deficient for being unable and/or unwilling to accept the nonsensical premise and its explanation), "JUST TAKE IT ON FAITH!" As a child I worried I was somehow born morally lacking as evidenced by my brain being unable to blindly accept religious 'truth'. It was so liberating as an adult, who continued to wrestle with my religious teachings, to finally realize ONE PERSON'S RELIGIOUS 'TRUTH' IS ANOTHER PERSON'S MERE PSYCHO-RELIGIOUS PSYChOBABBLE, and that acceptance or refusal to accept these concepts does not measure a person's worth or morality.

 

I'm sorry to you and anyone else who's been and felt oppressed by religious beliefs.  Clearly IMO, those "Take it on faith" people were bellowing because they were like the patience-free parent sick of "Why is the sky blue?", and/or didn't have a clue or an idea to tell you, and feeling inadequate over you.  Unfortunately, you were probably too young to tell the difference, and internalized it instead.

 

I don't feel like this is true Christianity, considering that elsewhere in the Bible, it says that it's enough to have faith the size of a mustard seed or small child, and I think wise and sensible religious authorities, interpret this as "it's OK for your amounts of faith to fluctuate without you being a Bad Doggie who needs your nose hit with the newspaper", and are making allowances for people being fallible.

Edited January 9, 2016 by queenanne

[becca3891]

Question: If the promise of 'everlasting life in heaven', that is, immortality, were removed from religion, how many humans would maintain their ties to their religious beliefs?

Great question. I would venture to say almost none. I mean, it's quite a stretch to have to spend your whole life on earth talking to an invisible being who never answers. To have a belief system based on NEVER getting to meet that elusive being sounds like a tough sell.

 

It always perplexed me as a child that, when questioned about the many illogical aspects of religion, the explanations given made no more real sense than the initial religious premise, and THEN, upon questioning the explanation, I was told (in a tone that implied I was somehow deficient for being unable and/or unwilling to accept the nonsensical premise and its explanation), "JUST TAKE IT ON FAITH!" As a child I worried I was somehow born morally lacking as evidenced by my brain being unable to blindly accept religious 'truth'. It was so liberating as an adult, who continued to wrestle with my religious teachings, to finally realize ONE PERSON'S RELIGIOUS 'TRUTH' IS ANOTHER PERSON'S MERE PSYCHO-RELIGIOUS PSYChOBABBLE, and that acceptance or refusal to accept these concepts does not measure a person's worth or morality.

It is so nice to see experiences here so similar to mine! I was also made to feel sinful for lack of faith. Again, I guess it really does come down to a different type of brain, because so many of these people really believe it's possible to simply make yourself believe in something.

 

It seems like that is the entire appeal of religion.

Having lost a baby, the idea that I may get to see him again is the only thing that ties me to religion. I feel like I have to believe somehow I will see my son again. It's just too horrific to think of otherwise. Even if it is completely delusional, it keeps me going.  But I just can't figure out which religion it ties me too. Because I just cannot get behind the hateful God so many others seem to believe in while claiming him to be loving.

I'm so very sorry. There are a lot of great liberal churches that don't preach a hateful god. I've heard good things about Unitarian Universalism.

 

I don't think that many would. But that reliance on "immortality" always kind of makes me laugh, too. Some of the people I know who hold it seem pretty bored and slow-moving in the limited lifespan they believe they've got as fleshy creatures on this planet. What the heck they're going to do for all eternity is a headscratcher, if you ask me?

 

Of course, I know it's just fear that makes them want not to die. But still -- I don't know how many have actually tried to contemplate what an eternity of just praising God would be like. I think a lot of people would sleep through most of that.

I remember sitting through an endless church service at age 8 or so (my church didn't believe in children leaving for Sunday school so we sat through the hour and a half to two hours in silence) and just feeling the panic rise within me -- THIS is what heaven is going to be like, for eternity? I couldn't think of anything worse. Of course, these days you have books like Heaven by Randy Alcorn which claim that the Christian heaven is just like a perfect earth, where you get to enjoy all the same things you do now but without pain or suffering. So they would argue that it isn't endless hymns and prayers. I can see the appeal of that -- just lost my belief in it a long time ago!

[JenCarroll]

It seems like that is the entire appeal of religion.

Having lost a baby, the idea that I may get to see him again is the only thing that ties me to religion. I feel like I have to believe somehow I will see my son again. It's just too horrific to think of otherwise. Even if it is completely delusional, it keeps me going.  But I just can't figure out which religion it ties me too. Because I just cannot get behind the hateful God so many others seem to believe in while claiming him to be loving.

Unitarians can give you a great sense of community and it's pretty much BYOB - bring your own beliefs.

Or, to be less flip about it: "In the spirit of community and service, we unite in the quest for those values which give our lives deeper meaning and spiritual satisfaction, reserving to each individual the right to his or her own beliefs as to the nature of God and the Universe."

Hm, we may be slipping off topic. We should probably move to the Small Talk thread if we're pursuing this conversation.

[DangerousMinds]

So so sorry Skittl.

 

What I don't understand is, if there is a God, an all loving one, do people really think that one has to be a believer to be allowed into a peaceful after life?

 

I just can't imagine an all powerful entity, that would have earthly requirements for after death.

Not all religions even believe in heaven or an afterlife.

[mbutterfly]

timestamp="1450629201"]Real question - is this belief system supposed to allow some comfort and peace? From my perspective it feels heavy and cumbersome. Or maybe it is supposed to feel that way, or only looks that way from a secular view?

I was raised to be an agnostic (technically a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant agnostic). I am now very much a person of faith. Yes, it does comfort me. As the Book of Revelation repeats throughout, "God wipes away your every tear." Also I find great comfort in my faith community. People who are trying to live life with a humble and generous spirit are just plain good to have around you. I have a graduate seminary degree. Do I have doubts? You betcha!

[crazycatlady58]

timestamp="1450629201"]Real question - is this belief system supposed to allow some comfort and peace? From my perspective it feels heavy and cumbersome. Or maybe it is supposed to feel that way, or only looks that way from a secular view?

I was raised to be an agnostic (technically a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant agnostic). I am now very much a person of faith. Yes, it does comfort me. As the Book of Revelation repeats throughout, "God wipes away your every tear." Also I find great comfort in my faith community. People who are trying to live life with a humble and generous spirit are just plain good to have around you. I have a graduate seminary degree. Do I have doubts? You betcha!

I agree mbutterfly, I also find great comfort in my faith. I also do not fear God, I respect, reverence and love Him but never fear Him. That is one of the problems I have with the Duggers, I find no love.

[Tabbygirl521]

I agree mbutterfly, I also find great comfort in my faith. I also do not fear God, I respect, reverence and love Him but never fear Him. That is one of the problems I have with the Duggers, I find no love.

I feel like the Duggars are always buttering God up with the constant praise over every minute thing, and supposedly never making a move without prayer. Wasn't it JumBob who prayed for guidance in selecting a toothbrush? I may be incorrect. But if I were God, I think I would be deeply frustrated at these obsequious loons who pestered me over every frigging thing, after I went to all the trouble of designing the human brain.

[SomePity1066]

obsequious loons

THAT, Tabbygirl, is going to be the name of my new band. Love it.

[MarysWetBar]

I have a question. After reading some of the more religious postings in the other threads. .who was brought up with these beliefs other than Churchhoney?

Seems to be more experts on the boards suddenly so just a random q.

[Churchhoney]

I have a question. After reading some of the more religious postings in the other threads. .who was brought up with these beliefs other than Churchhoney?

Seems to be more experts on the boards suddenly so just a random q.

 

I actually wasn't brought up with these beliefs! I was brought up in a household that was run very much like the Duggar household but that didn't have religion as the source of those principles. It had adults' personality disorders (and villainy) as the source of the principles and behavior. Religion was one of many mind-bludgeoning sticks around, but only one of many -- and it was conservative, but not fundie, religion.

 

That's why what I believe about the Duggar parents is that their style of family raising doesn't have its roots in religious belief but in their twisted personalities. I think religion is just a handy cover. Because I know for a fact that you can create a household that looks extremely similar to the Duggars' without having religion be a driving force at all -- and without being fundies.

[queenanne]

I have a question. After reading some of the more religious postings in the other threads. .who was brought up with these beliefs other than Churchhoney?

Seems to be more experts on the boards suddenly so just a random q.

 

I think we are going to say, that depends.  How many points of reference would you like? :)  I've also seen other folks here identify as raised Seventh Day and Mormon, which are going to have some differences; as will a few of the more progressive religions and branches of Protestantism.  Most things I've opined upon with Bible verses supporting them, are tenets with which I was raised, that I can say with certainty.  

 

THIS X's infinity! Thanks, Tabby Girl, for LMK I'm not the only human on the planet that can't envision a Duggar God, who wants, needs, expects constant praise, worship, begging of forgiveness, and relentless pleas for guidance over the inane, as in toothbrush selection.

 

Christians are told that God is supposed to guide them in everything they do, but you're correct, the toothbrush issue isn't supposed to be a head-scratcher that fits under this rubric.  Where you'd want to apply to God to help you decide, would be: Do I marry this or that person?  Take this or that job in this or that city?  Areas where there are real pros and cons to your choices, and you couldn't foretell the future.  As there are only infinitesimal differences in toothbrushes and next to no consequence for choosing a bad one, God would indeed vastly prefer you to make your own decisions on it based upon the brain cells you'd been given.

[kokapetl]

Really? I didn't realize that. What are some religions that do not promise afterlife for the 'holy'?

I believe Judaism doesn't have a hell, and the rest of the Jewish afterlife is largely undefined, I'm not Jewish though. Best to ask JenCarroll.

[Vaysh]

I believe Judaism doesn't have a hell, and the rest of the Jewish afterlife is largely undefined

This is what I've read too (one interpretation I came across made it sound like the Jewish idea of hell would be somewhat similar to the Catholic idea of Purgatory, it's a place to cleanse your soul), which makes the Christian insistance that all un-believers will be horribly tortured for all eternity rather interesting. Where and when did this belief in hell appear and why?

 

The cynic in me thinks that it has something to do with a new faith trying to gain ground and when realising that the carrot isn't enough, adds a bit of extra heavy stick. If the idea of eternal heavenly reward isn't enough, maybe eternal hellish punishment will put the fear of God into those pagans and make them more likely to convert.

[Churchhoney]

Really? I didn't realize that. What are some religions that do not promise afterlife for the 'holy'?

 

 

Actually, Judaism isn't big on it.

 

See here for a good explanation of that -- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/afterlife.html

[MarysWetBar]

I think we are going to say, that depends. How many points of reference would you like? :) I've also seen other folks here identify as raised Seventh Day and Mormon, which are going to have some differences; as will a few of the more progressive religions and branches of Protestantism. Most things I've opined upon with Bible verses supporting them, are tenets with which I was raised, that I can say with certainty.

Christians are told that God is supposed to guide them in everything they do, but you're correct, the toothbrush issue isn't supposed to be a head-scratcher that fits under this rubric. Where you'd want to apply to God to help you decide, would be: Do I marry this or that person? Take this or that job in this or that city? Areas where there are real pros and cons to your choices, and you couldn't foretell the future. As there are only infinitesimal differences in toothbrushes and next to no consequence for choosing a bad one, God would indeed vastly prefer you to make your own decisions on it based upon the brain cells you'd been given.

I'm sorry. I didn't word that properly. I'm not asking for religions. I'm asking who was brought up similarly. There just seems to be so many lately that have answers to why the family carries on like they do.

I assumed that they were members of vision quest or gothard based cults as children.

[JennyMominFL]

YUp, Judaism has no set belief on the afterlife. It also has no concept of eternal damnation. There is no Idea of "salvation" in a spiritual sense , in Judaism. The Jewish messiah has nothing to do with saving souls. There is also no concept of original sin. Judaism also does not teach that Judaism is the "right" religion. It teaches that Judaism is right for Jews and only Jews are held to Halacha, Jewish Law. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[latetotheparty]

YUp, Judaism has no set belief on the afterlife. It also has no concept of eternal damnation. There is no Idea of "salvation" in a spiritual sense , in Judaism. The Jewisj

 messiah has nothing to do with saving souls. There is also no concept of original sin. Judaism also does not teach that Judaism is the "right" religion. It teached that Judaism is right for Jews and only Jews are held to Halacha, Jewish Law.

 

That sounds remarkably sane.  There are some Christian theologians who would agree - Marcus Borg is one - but too many (vocal) ones that things Christianity is the only way.

[Micks Picks]

Funny thing, these points of view.  I would probably pray for inspiration to help me choose the right spouse or job.  Maybe.  In everyday life, there are too many choices.  In this, I pity JB.  I have walked out of a store before when I only went in for dental floss and saw regular, mint, wintergreen, regular width, wide, narrow, extra fine, etc etc.  I didn't' pray though.  I thought some uncharitable things and walked out without floss.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Micks Picks

[louannems]

Funny thing, these points of view.  I would probably pray for inspiration to help me choose the right spouse or job.  Maybe.  In everyday life, there are too many choices.  In this, I pity JB.  I have walked out of a store before when I only went in for dental floss and saw regular, mint, wintergreen, regular width, wide, narrow, extra fine, etc etc.  I didn't' pray though.  I thought some uncharitable things and walked out without floss.

Woven, goretex, waxed, un-waxed, fluoridated.

[JennyMominFL]

Since some asked, My religious background is as follows. I was raised Catholic but was never comfortable as one. I spent by early adult life studying with various Christian denominations, Baptists, JW"S and Lutherans, to start with.  But I had always felt a pull towards Judaism. I began the conversion process in 1999. I spent more than a year studying for conversion. I was taught by Hasidic, Orthodox, Reform and Conservative Jews. I converted officially via reform Judaism. Over the years, though , I have determined that while I do feel inherently tied to Judaism, I do not believe in God. That was a pretty difficult realization to come to, but I am OK with it.  I'm not alone, though. I know more than a few Jews who do not believe in God. 

 I know that is hard to understand from a Christian perspective, that I still consider myself Jewish despite not believing in God. But Judaism is about actions, not beliefs. A good Jews is one who performs mitzvahs, and Tzedakah, and is engaged in Tikkun Olam (Repairing the world). One is not a good Jew for believing the right thing. It's what you DO that matters.

Edited January 12, 2016 by JennyMominFL