Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Churchhoney]

OMG. I bet that Gothard defender (Arthur?) on Recovering Grace is behind that. Un-fucking-believable. Especially in light of the fact that GOTHARD RESIGNED OVER THIS BEHAVIOR! He knew it was wrong; these people starting a site to defend him just shows how insidious this cult really is. 

 

And having the crust to call it "Discovering Grace." Un-fucking-believable for sure. Interesting questions being asked and points raised by site visitors.

 

And here is old Bill on Facebook. Just like You-Know-Who, he's assembling his scattered pieces and trying to rise again. And, yeah, the Death Eaters and some of "The Ministry" are going along with it. Yeesh.

 

https://www.facebook.com/official.BillGothard/

 

Bill Gothard

October 27 at 10:17pm · Edited ·

On Sunday morning, August 23, 2015, I was given the opportunity to present to a church in Wisconsin the powerful truths which God graciously taught me during the past 18 months of day and night meditation.

After the first hour of speaking there was a 5 minute break for those that wanted to leave. The pastor was amazed that no one left. The overflow crowd listened attentively for a second hour and then 60 leadership people stayed on for a third hour of questions and answers.

Pastor Olsen has stated that in his 17 years of ministry at his church he has never seen such excitement about actually carrying out God's way of life.

On Thursday evening, October 8, 2015, God brought together over 40 leaders representing 4 nations and 4 significant professions for a 3 day conference. The same material that was given at Pastor Olsen's church was presented to them.

The first woman senator of a nation of 90 million people was at this conference with her husband. She reported that the prime minister of her nation had just sent her an urgent appeal to return and help them during a time of crisis. She stated, "The truths that I have just heard are exactly what my nation needs and must hear, and I am dedicated to make sure that this happens."

The recently retired vice president of world sales in 147 nations for IBM stood and said, "I have never heard the truths that have been presented today. They have transformed my life. Every person in the world must hear these truths."

A doctor with thousands of patients that come for treatment from America and many other nations declared, "All my patients must hear this information. It will resolve their stresses and produce lasting healing!"

The senior pastor of a 6000 member church with a television ministry stated, "Every member of my church and ministry should hear this message and I intend to give it to them."

The life-changing truths created a one-accord power and fellowship in the entire group. Every man was trained and equipped to share this seminar from his own experiences in accordance with 2 Timothy 2:2, "The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

There was such a joyful fellowship among every person in the group that an unexpected and spontaneous initiative spread among them to provide funds to make sure that this message reaches the world. One man wrote a check for $20,000!

The next step is to bring in thousands of leaders and equip them to effectively communicate this "new seminar" to the world. Please pray for the Lord's guidance in this endeavor.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

I read that a while ago. Do people actually buy into this garbage? From what I can tell, his comeback hasn't gained much traction; heck, I don't even think he was at the latest Bates wedding, and Brandon works at Gothard HQ! 

 

It IS interesting to see who is distancing themselves and who remains ever-faithful. 

[Churchhoney]

I read that a while ago. Do people actually buy into this garbage? From what I can tell, his comeback hasn't gained much traction; heck, I don't even think he was at the latest Bates wedding, and Brandon works at Gothard HQ! 

 

It IS interesting to see who is distancing themselves and who remains ever-faithful. 

 

Yeah, it doesn't seem to be getting much traction, thank goodness. Hopefully enough people have awoken from their trances to realize that stuff that doesn't seem to make any sense...uh...doesn't actually make any sense. He sure has been the master of the bullshit infomarketing ponzi scheme up to now, though, I must say. And the meaningless market speak remains epic.

 

The subtitle of the crazy new website (not necessarily BG, although he's said to have told them to change from some other name to the current name):   "The Freedom and Power in Christ to Obey and Overcome" WTF?   And then his new -- hopefully and apparently failing-to-launch-much -- new ponzi scheme: "Life Purpose Power Teams" who are supposed to "Find and record a Rhema" every day and whose project is to have "each man and his family engaging in the 'war room' of prayer, praying for large numbers of neighbors and acquaintances with the goal that every person in the world will one day have someone praying for them."  Is there something about impenetrable, nutso linguistic error, tangled-upness and opacity that makes people want to send money and get under some dark-haired corpse's protection umbrella? 

 

I can't figure out, at all, what's wrong with those who haven't awakened.

[kalamac]

 

The recently retired vice president of world sales in 147 nations for IBM stood and said, "I have never heard the truths that have been presented today. They have transformed my life. Every person in the world must hear these truths."

A doctor with thousands of patients that come for treatment from America and many other nations declared, "All my patients must hear this information. It will resolve their stresses and produce lasting healing!"

The senior pastor of a 6000 member church with a television ministry stated, "Every member of my church and ministry should hear this message and I intend to give it to them."

 

I don't believe any of these accounts.

And if I went to a doctor, and he started presenting me with these bullshit ideas instead of actually treating me, I'd be walking out the door, and going straight to a medical oversight board to report his behaviour.

[Churchhoney]

Spent some time perusing the defense site. (I wanted my hair to stand on end for a Bride of Frankenstein costume.) Makes clear how the Gothard tradition helped the Duggs recast Joshie's teen doings as "light inappropriate touching over clothes."   

 

"Discovering Grace" recasts Gothard's horrible forced footsie games with trapped, unwilling teenage girls as "affirmative taps on the feet" made during counseling sessions to bolster the girls' confidence and spirits. They sure had that effect, all right. And they keep repeating "affirmative taps on the feet" as if that's a thing. Which I suppose it might be if they're done with a stick and you're teaching Jocko the Wonder Horse to count or something. I have no idea how adults can convolute their brains this way in the service of undead horror like Gothard.

[Satchels of gold]

Affirmative foot taps is the poor man's "wide stance". Remember that?

[crazycatlady58]

Churchhoney, I cannot quote your post for reference, but the long post you had, were they talking about praying for each oher, multiplying the number of people praying so soon the whole world will be prayed for? Because I read yout post 3 times and could not understand what was being said. I think I have a learning disability were B.S. is concerned because it never makes sense. Now I am a Christian who belives prayer works but if I heard this I would leave right away.I was just odd.

[Sew Sumi]

Affirmative foot taps is the poor man's "wide stance". Remember that?

You're confusing your cult leaders. Doug Phillips of Vision Forum was the guy known for the manly wide stance.

[Satchels of gold]

I was referring to Larry Craig the congressman caught soliciting gay sex in the airport bathroom. He was also very anti gay and pro family values.....hmm I'm seeing a pattern.

[BrianJ62]

I was referring to Larry Craig the congressman caught soliciting gay sex in the airport bathroom. He was also very anti gay and pro family values.....hmm I'm seeing a pattern.

Do as I say, not who I do

[Churchhoney]

Churchhoney, I cannot quote your post for reference, but the long post you had, were they talking about praying for each oher, multiplying the number of people praying so soon the whole world will be prayed for? Because I read yout post 3 times and could not understand what was being said. I think I have a learning disability were B.S. is concerned because it never makes sense. Now I am a Christian who belives prayer works but if I heard this I would leave right away.I was just odd.

 

I think that's what they're saying. .... But then they say other things about this venture in other places, so I'm not 100 percent sure. I think the B.S. learning disability is a very good thing to have!

 

What I really don't understand is how these defenders, who clearly share a lot of Gothard's purported specific beliefs, can not see how much he damages the creed they hold to, with pretty much every thing he says.

[BrianJ62]

Affirmative foot taps is the poor man's "wide stance". Remember that?

A gay friend of mine told me if your in a mens bathroom and a foot comes under the partition wall and begins Tapping its a signal that person wants to have sex in the stalls, takes on a whole new meaning to toe tapping.

Edited November 11, 2015 by BrianJ62

[sometimesy]

And having the crust to call it "Discovering Grace." Un-fucking-believable for sure. Interesting questions being asked and points raised by site visitors.

 

And here is old Bill on Facebook. Just like You-Know-Who, he's assembling his scattered pieces and trying to rise again. And, yeah, the Death Eaters and some of "The Ministry" are going along with it. Yeesh.

 

https://www.facebook.com/official.BillGothard/

 

Bill Gothard

October 27 at 10:17pm · Edited ·

On Sunday morning, August 23, 2015, I was given the opportunity to present to a church in Wisconsin the powerful truths which God graciously taught me during the past 18 months of day and night meditation.

After the first hour of speaking there was a 5 minute break for those that wanted to leave. The pastor was amazed that no one left. The overflow crowd listened attentively for a second hour and then 60 leadership people stayed on for a third hour of questions and answers.

Pastor Olsen has stated that in his 17 years of ministry at his church he has never seen such excitement about actually carrying out God's way of life.

On Thursday evening, October 8, 2015, God brought together over 40 leaders representing 4 nations and 4 significant professions for a 3 day conference. The same material that was given at Pastor Olsen's church was presented to them.

The first woman senator of a nation of 90 million people was at this conference with her husband. She reported that the prime minister of her nation had just sent her an urgent appeal to return and help them during a time of crisis. She stated, "The truths that I have just heard are exactly what my nation needs and must hear, and I am dedicated to make sure that this happens."

The recently retired vice president of world sales in 147 nations for IBM stood and said, "I have never heard the truths that have been presented today. They have transformed my life. Every person in the world must hear these truths."

A doctor with thousands of patients that come for treatment from America and many other nations declared, "All my patients must hear this information. It will resolve their stresses and produce lasting healing!"

The senior pastor of a 6000 member church with a television ministry stated, "Every member of my church and ministry should hear this message and I intend to give it to them."

The life-changing truths created a one-accord power and fellowship in the entire group. Every man was trained and equipped to share this seminar from his own experiences in accordance with 2 Timothy 2:2, "The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

There was such a joyful fellowship among every person in the group that an unexpected and spontaneous initiative spread among them to provide funds to make sure that this message reaches the world. One man wrote a check for $20,000!

The next step is to bring in thousands of leaders and equip them to effectively communicate this "new seminar" to the world. Please pray for the Lord's guidance in this endeavor.

Re the bolded. 'This shit is amazing, but don't use my name '.. haha

Edited November 11, 2015 by sometimesy

[Liz Tudor]

I'm not exactly sure where to put this, since it overlaps several topics, but this is close enough, I think. I knew a tiny bit about Jim Elliot, maybe from here. Here is a nauseating, seriously padded story for children about him and how he died so the savage natives of Ecuador could know Jesus: http://www.crossroad.to/Victory/stories/missionary/11-auca.htm

I wouldn't want to name MY kid after this guy, but I can see why Binessa would. I spent a fair amount of time reading about him on the Internet, and he sounds like someone Bin especially would look up to. Went to college, and deemed it a waste because it wasn't Jesus-y enough. Was encouraged to be a missionary in the States, but that wasn't Jesus-y enough. So, with all his religious smarts & hubris, he took his wife and new baby to go stomping off to the jungles of Ecuador among known violent indigenous tribes (again, it wasn't Jesus-y enough to work with the tribe that was friendly & marginally accepting of the foreign missionaries), and promptly got killed at age 28. Dumbass. But, that's super Jesus-y, because he's a fundie martyr (worthy of naming your kid after 60 yrs later, even if Binessa did spell it wrong, aren't they using 2 "t's?"). Yay, him. Throw in a skit or two, some gratuitous selfies of nail polishing, and you've got the Dullards' missionary plans. Hopefully, they stay in Antigua and away from the gangs & guerillas, but I could totally see Derick thinking he would be the one to make them change. And, BAM! Jill has fodder for a couple of "inspirational" books & movies ("Kirk Cameron is on the line, wants to option the rights to the tragic story!").

These people...it's enough to bring on a migraine. Naming your kid after a Catholic hater and a dumbass who died from an overdose of pride.

Why didn't they just go with Winsome?

[Fuzzysox]

You're confusing your cult leaders. Doug Phillips of Vision Forum was the guy known for the manly wide stance.

Is Doug still with his wife?

[Sew Sumi]

Last I heard, she's standing by her man. Barf.

[cheatincheetos]

Yep, you can count on the most vociferous about CONSERVATIVE Family Values to secretly be the kinkiest people on the planet. Whenever they 'doth protest too much', it's a big, red flag.

[frenchtoast]

Please keep topic to discussion and explanation of various theologies and definitely not politics or politicians. 

[Defrauder]

The dangers of delusional religious extremism.  Sad day today.

[Tabbygirl521]

Spent some time perusing the defense site. (I wanted my hair to stand on end for a Bride of Frankenstein costume.) Makes clear how the Gothard tradition helped the Duggs recast Joshie's teen doings as "light inappropriate touching over clothes."

"Discovering Grace" recasts Gothard's horrible forced footsie games with trapped, unwilling teenage girls as "affirmative taps on the feet" made during counseling sessions to bolster the girls' confidence and spirits. They sure had that effect, all right. And they keep repeating "affirmative taps on the feet" as if that's a thing. Which I suppose it might be if they're done with a stick and you're teaching Jocko the Wonder Horse to count or something. I have no idea how adults can convolute their brains this way in the service of undead horror like Gothard.

Probably a cousin of Larry Craig's "wide stance."

ETA I see a bunch of you guys beat me to that conclusion. Not BEAT ME beat me, but, you know.

Is there any chance this is a parody site?? Did they really find some sort of marketing whiz to "rebrand" molestation? Jesus H.

And the idea of calling a prayer chain a "war room"? Why all the hostility? Call it a love room. Except I don't think love of fellow humans is their motivation.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Tabbygirl521

[Purpose to defraud]

Spent some time perusing the defense site. (I wanted my hair to stand on end for a Bride of Frankenstein costume.) Makes clear how the Gothard tradition helped the Duggs recast Joshie's teen doings as "light inappropriate touching over clothes."   

 

"Discovering Grace" recasts Gothard's horrible forced footsie games with trapped, unwilling teenage girls as "affirmative taps on the feet" made during counseling sessions to bolster the girls' confidence and spirits. They sure had that effect, all right. And they keep repeating "affirmative taps on the feet" as if that's a thing. Which I suppose it might be if they're done with a stick and you're teaching Jocko the Wonder Horse to count or something. I have no idea how adults can convolute their brains this way in the service of undead horror like Gothard.

Thank you, churchhoney, for this and your many other witty and insightful posts. 

I send you an affirmative tap on your feet, to bolster your confidence and spirits.

Seriously though,it was only girls and women who were abused by BG. No one to be concerned about.

[MunichNark]

Hope this is the right thread, picking up on something said on the Binjessaspurge thread......

 

The Duggars don't do christenings as infants, do they? They believe in baptism as an informed choice later on. Was there ever an episode where any of the kids actually shows an interest in becoming "Christian"? I've only watched the odd show on You Tube since we don't get it here, but even then I always wondered at the lack of actual Religion in their daily lives, like praying before meals or going to Church (or their Basement if they  must).

 

They blather on and on about Religion, yet seem to actually live none of it and practice even less, apart from legalistic crap

[Lemur]

Hope this is the right thread, picking up on something said on the Binjessaspurge thread......

 

The Duggars don't do christenings as infants, do they? They believe in baptism as an informed choice later on. Was there ever an episode where any of the kids actually shows an interest in becoming "Christian"? I've only watched the odd show on You Tube since we don't get it here, but even then I always wondered at the lack of actual Religion in their daily lives, like praying before meals or going to Church (or their Basement if they  must).

 

They blather on and on about Religion, yet seem to actually live none of it and practice even less, apart from legalistic crap

 

No, they don't believe in infant baptism.  That's pretty much a Catholic (and I believe Episcopalian/Anglican) belief.  And you're right, I don't believe we've ever seen a baptism, but then again, that would jive with their sneaky "ministry without overt religion" TV mission statement.

[Churchhoney]

Hope this is the right thread, picking up on something said on the Binjessaspurge thread......

 

The Duggars don't do christenings as infants, do they? They believe in baptism as an informed choice later on. Was there ever an episode where any of the kids actually shows an interest in becoming "Christian"? I've only watched the odd show on You Tube since we don't get it here, but even then I always wondered at the lack of actual Religion in their daily lives, like praying before meals or going to Church (or their Basement if they  must).

 

They blather on and on about Religion, yet seem to actually live none of it and practice even less, apart from legalistic crap

 

I wonder whether this because, while they don't quite realize it, they're much more members of a cult/sect of personality than they are members of the Christian church or a Christian church. They don't pay a lot of attention to what most people would consider core ideals and traditions of Christianity or Protestantism or its smaller denominations even, and they even knock some of those things, because they're wholly caught up in a small fringe group -- what I'd call a destructive cult -- that only fully embraces the vision of one person, Gothard.  .... And I think I'd argue that the Duggars are part of two such destructive cults of personalities -- Gothard's but also the very very small JimBob/Michelle cult of personality -- and maybe, over time, they've become more pure Duggarites than they are Gothardites.

 

That's why it all is so legalistic, I think. They don't embrace most of the big-picture religious principles that the world has come to recognize as Christian (or even Protestant) over the years -- we're constantly noting this, on topic after topic. Instead, they're totally keyed into the little nitpicky idiosyncratic details that their cult leaders' neuroses have elevated into the really important things. In fact, they embrace those little details as being what importantly sets them apart from the larger group of which they also sort of claim to be members -- in this case conservative Protestantism. While cults like this generally tout themselves as true representatives -- and often as the truest representatives -- of the larger belief system of which they're offshoots (be it Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.), in fact they often deviate from the ideals of the main religions by a huge amount, and they often go off the rails entirely into stuff that's very destructive to the group members, and sometimes even to people outside the group.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Absolom]

 

No, they don't believe in infant baptism.  That's pretty much a Catholic (and I believe Episcopalian/Anglican) belief.

Or Orthodox, or Copt, or Lutheran, or Methodist, or some Presbyterians,  etc.

 

The Duggars do seem to be held in the cult of Jim Bob founded on the beliefs of Gothard.  I often wonder what they make of Ben's views and if they are aware of the differences.

[mbutterfly]

Hope this is the right thread, picking up on something said on the Binjessaspurge thread......

 

The Duggars don't do christenings as infants, do they? They believe in baptism as an informed choice later on. Was there ever an episode where any of the kids actually shows an interest in becoming "Christian"? I've only watched the odd show on You Tube since we don't get it here, but even then I always wondered at the lack of actual Religion in their daily lives, like praying before meals or going to Church (or their Basement if they  must).

 

They blather on and on about Religion, yet seem to actually live none of it and practice even less, apart from legalistic crap

Have we ever seen a baptism or a celebration for a youth on a day of baptism with the Duggars? I do think they all did the traditional "baptism" in the Jordan River (IIRC), but often that is more a remembrance of one's already held baptism in one's own church, at least in my experience. 

[Churchhoney]

 

The Duggars do seem to be held in the cult of Jim Bob founded on the beliefs of Gothard.  I often wonder what they make of Ben's views and if they are aware of the differences.

 

Yeah, I wonder this, too. It's kind of hard to imagine JimBob or Michelle being smart enough or concerned enough with actual theology outside of DON"T HAVE SEX UNTIL YOU"RE MARRIED! to notice or care, but he really is coming from a different place. Sometimes I think that JimBob is just so driven by his own desires and neuroses that he actually doesn't give a crap about theology at all and may have no idea what a Calvinist even is. But I do wonder.

 

I also wonder to what degree the Seewalds were involved in Vision Forum, since that was a cult of personality, too. Did Ben's involvement with that help condition him at all to just joining a new personality cult? And I wonder about Derick, who doesn't seem to have been in a personality cult at all but just in Southern Baptist churches. I'm thinking that what seems to me to be his childlikeness has maybe just quickly made him into a Duggar out of the pure neediness of a nerdy social misfit, but I still wonder whether he notices anything different about their beliefs and approaches and whether any of it bothers him. It does seem odd that, to this point anyway, Ben and Derick seem to have fit into Duggarism so seamlessly when they both come from pretty different places -- and seem to have a continued commitment to their beliefs and/or churches of origin. And the Duggs come off as so dogmatic in some ways, but does their dogmatism actually extend to Calvinism or non-Calvinism or is it just dogmatism that spouts Gothardism only without them even realizing that some other theologies may conflict?

 

I guess right now it seems to me as if they're all just a bunch of idiots who are drawn to neurotic enmeshment and may actually be too stupid, uneducated and personality- rather than idea-driven to even realize that there are differing theologies being preached within their their little expanded but still enmeshed group.

[Muffyn]

The Duggars are not thinking people.  I would not expect them to be able to distinguish between any of the variations of Christianity.  As many have said, their focus is on sex and breeding.  They do not look much further than that.  Since they see their beliefs as coming directly from the bible but are neither curious enough nor learned enough to understand issues of translation and interpretation,  they simply spout the scripture that has been brought to their purview.  Being Gothardites, they are directed in their beliefs by his teachings.  They are not going to think beyond the teachings that reinforce their rather limited world view.  That is why I feel sorry for their children.  Not only are they being taught at the SOTDRT, they are being taught to not be inquisitive.  Shutting down their curiosity and leading them to believe that their ignorance makes them superior to others is the greatest disservice this family has done. 

 

Bin being Calvinist makes sense.  He spews scripture that goes on about our supposed sinful nature and inability to ever live a truly righteous life while at the same time holding himself as more righteous than most because of his beliefs.  While his beliefs are different from what Jim Bob and Mechelle purport to believe, he is still close enough to their limited world view that they would not see the distinction.  He is anti-sex.  He is willing to support the idea of strict gender roles.  And he praises a god that holds to stringent ideas of allowable human behavior.  Bin’s god supports his self-righteous bloviating.  JB enjoys bloviating for Jesus.   And Bin is willing to suck up to JB as needed to keep his place in the hierarchy.  As he ages, I suspect there will be more of a struggle since Bin seems to think of himself as a possible leader.  If he wants to get out from under JB, there will be a struggle. 

 

Derrick is more interesting to me because he seems to come from a much more mainstream form of Christianity.  His family is certainly not Duggarsih and he seems to have a good relationship with his mother.  While the cameras are still around, it is harder to see if he and Jill will break away more from the Duggar view.  When the interest in these idiots wanes, they may move more toward the center.  Let’s hope for the sake of any crotchfruit they spawn that this happens.

[louannems]

No, they don't believe in infant baptism.  That's pretty much a Catholic (and I believe Episcopalian/Anglican) belief.  And you're right, I don't believe we've ever seen a baptism, but then again, that would jive with their sneaky "ministry without overt religion" TV mission statement.

On the Duggar Family Blog, there's a picture of birthday boy Justin being baptized by his dad ! I know the older girls have mentioned being baptized by JimBob also.

[Vaysh]

Talk about keeping it all in the family. Not only is Boob their dad, he's their headship in all worldy matters; he's their spiritual guidance counsellor, (as well as their actual guidance counsellor: 'Dad, I want to be a doctor', 'No son, God has laid it upon my heart to tell you that he wants you to be a preaching mechanic with no professional training'), their confessor, and their minister. How truly suffocating their lives must be; there is just no freedom from Jim Bob anywhere.

[GeeGolly]

On the Duggar Family Blog, there's a picture of birthday boy Justin being baptized by his dad ! I know the older girls have mentioned being baptized by JimBob also.

Just more weirdness. Being baptized by your non-preacher dad. To me that is called a bath.

 

(Well, a bath without soap & shampoo)

[Vaysh]

No, they don't believe in infant baptism.  That's pretty much a Catholic (and I believe Episcopalian/Anglican) belief. .

And Lutheran. Actually I think most Protestant denominations practice infant baptism, at least in Europe (and by Protestant I mean the original churches that sprung up during the reformation, not the later Evangelical ones).

[Tabbygirl521]

Talk about keeping it all in the family. Not only is Boob their dad, he's their headship in all worldy matters; he's their spiritual guidance counsellor, (as well as their actual guidance counsellor: 'Dad, I want to be a doctor', 'No son, God has laid it upon my heart to tell you that he wants you to be a preaching mechanic with no professional training'), their confessor, and their minister. How truly suffocating their lives must be; there is just no freedom from Jim Bob anywhere.

And yet when the boys marry, they suddenly have the skills and wisdom to be their wives' "headships." (How I despise that stupid word, and concept.) I guess God lays it all on their heart so they magically know how to proceed. What a bunch of numbskulls.

[Micks Picks]

I'm Catholic so with us it is baptism as infants, but I have heard of infants being kind of baptized, in Fundy churches but they called it something else and they still require baptism as an adult.  The adult one is the that counts.   When they were in Israel old JIB had one of the girls that he was re-baptizing there in the Dead Sea,, I think.  Just because they were there and it would be extra holy, don't you know.

[queenanne]

I wonder whether this because, while they don't quite realize it, they're much more members of a cult/sect of personality than they are members of the Christian church or a Christian church. They don't pay a lot of attention to what most people would consider core ideals and traditions of Christianity or Protestantism or its smaller denominations even, and they even knock some of those things, because they're wholly caught up in a small fringe group -- what I'd call a destructive cult -- that only fully embraces the vision of one person, Gothard.  .... And I think I'd argue that the Duggars are part of two such destructive cults of personalities -- Gothard's but also the very very small JimBob/Michelle cult of personality -- and maybe, over time, they've become more pure Duggarites than they are Gothardites.

 

That's why it all is so legalistic, I think. They don't embrace most of the big-picture religious principles that the world has come to recognize as Christian (or even Protestant) over the years -- we're constantly noting this, on topic after topic. Instead, they're totally keyed into the little nitpicky idiosyncratic details that their cult leaders' neuroses have elevated into the really important things. In fact, they embrace those little details as being what importantly sets them apart from the larger group of which they also sort of claim to be members -- in this case conservative Protestantism. While cults like this generally tout themselves as true representatives -- and often as the truest representatives -- of the larger belief system of which they're offshoots (be it Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, etc.), in fact they often deviate from the ideals of the main religions by a huge amount, and they often go off the rails entirely into stuff that's very destructive to the group members, and sometimes even to people outside the group.

 

That sounds/reminds me of some of those congregations Paul etc. preached against in the Epistles, no?  (The ones we don't really know what they did "wrong" now because it's been lost to the mists of memory, lol.).  There's one where the implication is that they've become "apostate", but Paul doesn't say how, and/but the clear idea is, that it's because of some sort of weird man-made drift that seemed right at the time and took place over time without knowing,

 

I agree the general idea behind adult baptism is considering that the adults may find it more meaningful to them when they're old enough to know it's going on.

[Sew Sumi]

I'm Catholic so with us it is baptism as infants, but I have heard of infants being kind of baptized, in Fundy churches but they called it something else and they still require baptism as an adult. The adult one is the that counts. When they were in Israel old JIB had one of the girls that he was re-baptizing there in the Dead Sea,, I think. Just because they were there and it would be extra holy, don't you know.

Izzy got a baby blessing at Cross Church. No water, but the congregation pledges to watch over the babies. IIRC, there were three or four babies being blessed during the same ceremony.

So, that's how Southern Baptists handle it, at any rate.

[Marigold]

Also called a Baby Dedication.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I'm really amazed at the wealth of knowledge on this thread. I was forced to go to church growing up. I was never told why I had to go to church or read the Bible. To me, it was all just a chore, like folding laundry or washing dishes. Church, Sunday School, Bible School, Youth Group etc.took up a lot of my time. I can only spout one or two Bible verses and a sing a few hymnss and that's it. Now I don't go to church at all. I can't say that I've retained much knowledge of the Bible, so I'm very impressed by posters here who know so much about different books of the Bible. People like the Duggars who take the Bible literally absolutely fascinate me.

[galax-arena]

Anybody watch the movie Spotlight? It's about a Boston newspaper's investigation into the Catholic church's sex abuse scandal and cover-up. One prominent conservative Protestant Christian site, the Gospel Coalition, wrote an article praising the movie. Too bad that TGC has in the past defended CJ Mahaney and been silent about Doug Wilson; both men have been implicated in covering up sex abuse in their own churches. I think they care more about stroking their anti-Catholic hateboner than giving a voice to victims of abuse. Maybe we'll see Ben come out in favor of Spotlight, too! Or is that movie too secular for him? 

 

I just needed somewhere to vent about this sort of hypocrisy, ugh. The sheer scope of the Catholic scandal was maybe all the more staggering because of how interconnected and hierarchical the church is, but other Christians need to stop acting as though abuse is only a Catholic problem. 

 

BTW, I definitely recommend Spotlight if you haven't seen it already. But maybe not if you suffer from high blood pressure. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by galax-arena

[Micks Picks]

I read an article today about the pope issuing a statement warning against fundamentalists in all religions including his own.  Duggars beware.  Too many of those associated with them have been shown to be in the fundamentalist mindset leading to abuse. Even they can't be so dumb as to not see it, know it and experience it. If you can't even say that fundamentalism leads to abuse, you can't deal with it.

[Ilovemylabs]

No, they don't believe in infant baptism.  That's pretty much a Catholic (and I believe Episcopalian/Anglican) belief.  And you're right, I don't believe we've ever seen a baptism, but then again, that would jive with their sneaky "ministry without overt religion" TV mission statement.

Amy was baptized as an adult in Israel.

[questionfear]

Amy was baptized as an adult in Israel.

 

I need to read more slowly. I read that as Amy was baptized as an adult BY Israel, and I thought, damn, lil' Izzy is pretty advanced for a baby!

[Ilovemylabs]

I need to read more slowly. I read that as Amy was baptized as an adult BY Israel, and I thought, damn, lil' Izzy is pretty advanced for a baby!

If I remember correctly she was baptized by Jim Bob in the Jordan River (which looked pretty dirty to me...just sayin').

[cmr2014]

I was thinking today about an old friend -- the first of my friends to marry and have a child. I remember saying to him, "you know what might be fun -- teach him a couple of things that are wrong. Teach him that the word for the color green is "blue" and the word for the color blue is "green". Just a little something."

 

My friend didn't think that was funny at all -- because he was an adult and a father, and we were talking about his son.

 

It occurred to me today that that is exaclty what JB and J'chelle have done. They have purposely taught their children things that are demonstrably false, and they have completely isolated them from any outside influence that might have been able to clue them in.

 

This is a cult -- it's not just a few people on a board who snark among themselves that it is a cult.

 

Part of the socialization process is that we all learn the same things -- we share a culture. JB and J'chelle have actively prevented their children from learning anything about our culture: no tv, movies, music, books, magazines, games, or interactions with "outsiders." They have specifically and actively indoctrinated them into an alternate reality where any number of preposterous things are the "truth." And so on.

 

There are any number of groups in America that exist seperately from our culture: the Amish, the Hasidim, the FLDS, etc.

 

If TLC wants to produce a show about this cult, that's their business, but a show on the Amish or any other cult would acknowledge that it is a cult. The Duggars aren't some adorable family with a bunch of kids, they are members of a cult -- a cult that treats women as chattel, isolates their children, ignores sexual abuse, is overtly hostile to American culture as it exists in 2015, and insists on "home schooling" so that none of the children will learn any facts that might conflict with "the teachings."

[galax-arena]

If TLC wants to produce a show about this cult, that's their business, but a show on the Amish or any other cult would acknowledge that it is a cult.

Does the media actually call the Amish a cult? Occasionally we get a documentary about the dark side of the Amish community (e.g. just watched a documentary on Netflix about shunning) but I feel like a big thing/trend is to completely romanticize the Amish and their way of life because they remind us of a ~simpler time. It reminds me of how people will talk about the 1950s like they were the good ol' days.

[Muffyn]

I agree there is a lot of romanticizing of the Amish.  Then again, I had the misfortune of seeing the movie Amish Grace (don't judge me!).  It seems to be a mixed bag now.  we have movies and shows that present the Amish as simple, wholesome godly folks who are very family and community focused.  There are also some shows now that talk more about people leaving the Amish.  In those we'll hear about education being discouraged beyond a certain point, shunning, strict gender and community roles, etc.  I have not typically heard the word cult applied to the Amish.  However, at least in some cases, the veil of glamorization and acceptance seems to be falling.  

[questionfear]

I was thinking today about an old friend -- the first of my friends to marry and have a child. I remember saying to him, "you know what might be fun -- teach him a couple of things that are wrong. Teach him that the word for the color green is "blue" and the word for the color blue is "green". Just a little something."

 

My friend didn't think that was funny at all -- because he was an adult and a father, and we were talking about his son.

 

It occurred to me today that that is exaclty what JB and J'chelle have done. They have purposely taught their children things that are demonstrably false, and they have completely isolated them from any outside influence that might have been able to clue them in.

 

This is a cult -- it's not just a few people on a board who snark among themselves that it is a cult.

 

Part of the socialization process is that we all learn the same things -- we share a culture. JB and J'chelle have actively prevented their children from learning anything about our culture: no tv, movies, music, books, magazines, games, or interactions with "outsiders." They have specifically and actively indoctrinated them into an alternate reality where any number of preposterous things are the "truth." And so on.

 

There are any number of groups in America that exist seperately from our culture: the Amish, the Hasidim, the FLDS, etc.

 

If TLC wants to produce a show about this cult, that's their business, but a show on the Amish or any other cult would acknowledge that it is a cult. The Duggars aren't some adorable family with a bunch of kids, they are members of a cult -- a cult that treats women as chattel, isolates their children, ignores sexual abuse, is overtly hostile to American culture as it exists in 2015, and insists on "home schooling" so that none of the children will learn any facts that might conflict with "the teachings."

We used to have discussions in my metaphysical philosophy class about things like this (how we perceive the world is influenced by what we learn, that there's no inherent understanding of red vs blue, etc). However, we all agreed it was ethically wrong to actually test that on a child.

 

Somehow I think the Duggars would disagree, especially if they could get TLC to film it. 

[Wellfleet]

I was thinking today about an old friend -- the first of my friends to marry and have a child. I remember saying to him, "you know what might be fun -- teach him a couple of things that are wrong. Teach him that the word for the color green is "blue" and the word for the color blue is "green". Just a little something."

 

My friend didn't think that was funny at all -- because he was an adult and a father, and we were talking about his son.

 

It occurred to me today that that is exaclty what JB and J'chelle have done. They have purposely taught their children things that are demonstrably false, and they have completely isolated them from any outside influence that might have been able to clue them in.

 

This is a cult -- it's not just a few people on a board who snark among themselves that it is a cult.

 

Part of the socialization process is that we all learn the same things -- we share a culture. JB and J'chelle have actively prevented their children from learning anything about our culture: no tv, movies, music, books, magazines, games, or interactions with "outsiders." They have specifically and actively indoctrinated them into an alternate reality where any number of preposterous things are the "truth." And so on.

 

There are any number of groups in America that exist seperately from our culture: the Amish, the Hasidim, the FLDS, etc.

 

If TLC wants to produce a show about this cult, that's their business, but a show on the Amish or any other cult would acknowledge that it is a cult. The Duggars aren't some adorable family with a bunch of kids, they are members of a cult -- a cult that treats women as chattel, isolates their children, ignores sexual abuse, is overtly hostile to American culture as it exists in 2015, and insists on "home schooling" so that none of the children will learn any facts that might conflict with "the teachings."

 

Exactly right, excellent post. The analogy about blue and green is Perfect...

[GeeGolly]

The discussion from the Josh and Anna thread, about redemption, sin, being saved, helping others, etc ...

 

It all makes my head spin. Is the Bible purposefully ambiguous? As I have noted before, I'm am very naive when it comes to religion, but it seems to me the Bible can be used to argue opposing opinions on almost any belief.

[Churchhoney]

The discussion from the Josh and Anna thread, about redemption, sin, being saved, helping others, etc ...

 

It all makes my head spin. Is the Bible purposefully ambiguous? As I have noted before, I'm am very naive when it comes to religion, but it seems to me the Bible can be used to argue opposing opinions on almost any belief.

 

 

Well, the Bible is -- literally -- an anthology of translated works assembled by various committees over hundreds of years in several different parts of the world. So ....

Edited December 20, 2015 by Churchhoney