Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Sew Sumi]

I don't like anyone trying to sell me anything. I love when people share.  When ASKED. 

We have a No Soliciting sign on our front door (condo). Our building has outdoor hallways and is accessible from the street, so we're ripe pickings for the Mormons (we have a Temple in the city) as well as Jehovah's Witnesses. One day, I saw them coming and waited for them to ring the doorbell. I told them to look a the sign. They replied that they weren't selling anything. I told them that they were soliciting religion and kindly asked them to move on. 

[GEML]

I know so much about Mormon history, I usually give them a nice talk and a drink, and then send them on their way. For some odd reason, no one comes back twice....

[zenme]

I know so much about Mormon history, I usually give them a nice talk and a drink, and then send them on their way. For some odd reason, no one comes back twice...

 

This is what my dad does when the Jehovah's Witnesses stop by. 

[mynextmistake]

I've had Mormons come to the door a few times and they have always been very polite and not at all pushy. I usually just say I'm comfortable with my faith and as it is and then ask them where they're from and whether they like my town and we have a nice chat.

On the other hand, we have a non-denominational Christian church in the area that frequently sends people door-to-door. If I don't answer the door, they leave angry pamphlets about Hell and abortion in my mailbox.

[Micks Picks]

That does it.  I just moved back into my house and found the christian stuff stuffed in the fence.  I'm going to rope the gate shut.  I don't want them at the door.  I hate it.  Am pissed off when I open the door and don't get any happier seeing some proselytizers there.  It's not good for my mood.  Not at all.

[galax-arena]

Fortunately I've never had to deal with door-to-door proselytizers, just people preaching on the subway and trying to pass out tracts during my morning commute. It's something I've learned to tune out by now. 

[zenme]

Similar to phone solicitors, it's MOST annoying when you're in the middle of dinner, or some sort of chore or project, and DING DONG! It's a struggle for me to stay polite at that point. One day I remained seated on my sofa as they peered into the door's window. They rang the door about 3x.

[Micks Picks]

I saw The Book of Mormom last year and it was a real hoot.  They have a great number in there about the doorbells, the audience was hysterical, so it's an annoyance commonly shared.

[AmandaPanda]

I grew up near Independence, MO, which is what the Mormons were taught was originally the Garden of Eden. I maintain that anyone who actually thinks that has never been there. The RLDS headquarters is still there. We used to have Mormon drills in my house. My mom would yell out "The Mormons are here" and I would immediately jump out of sight of any windows. That is how frequently they came to our door. 

 

We only had Jehovah's Witnesses a handful of times, but we had a similar procedure.

 

The worst for me were the non-denominational Christians at my high school. We had two religious clubs. One was basically a Bible study group. They would meet and pray together. I had a lot of friends in that club. And then there was Club Revolution. They would meet and proselytize on the main stairway right as people were trying to get to classes. I hung out with all the goth and emo kids. They would trap us in the corner where we hung out and preach at us about how we were all going to hell unless we accepted Jesus. We would have to have one person shimmy out of the corner and go find a principal to get them to leave us alone.

[galax-arena]

Independence, MO, which is what the Mormons were taught was originally the Garden of Eden.

LOL, that... is such a random-ass place to plunk down the Garden of Eden, although I guess the GoE had to go somewhere. Er, congrats, Independence? 

[JenCarroll]

Eh, anywhere could have been Eden. Have you ever seen artist renderings of Manhattan before the Europeans came? Seriously, anywhere.

[Happyfatchick]

We dint have so many doorbell ringers in our neighborhood, although I've lived where it was a regular occurrence.

I think the weirdest thing I ever saw was one Sunday when I walked to my car in a break between Sunday School and church and found JW's putting their booklets under windshields in the parking lot. There were "parkers" in our church (many people, itty bitty parking lot) who just didn't seem to know what to DO with these people running around the parking lot with their booklets. I'm a no-crap kinda girl, so I WENT right up and stopped one of them (all 5'1" of me) and said, "what are you DOING???" He proclaimed they were sharing their good news with the baptists. I gestured around the parking lot and said, "all these cars? They belong to people who got up this morning, got dressed and drove to THIS church on purpose. I'm guessing they are where they want to be. Maybe you'd have better luck doing that where you're not going to make people angry rather than receptive to your message. Just sayin'". And so they left, but how WEIRD!!!

Edited June 14, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Churchhoney]

We dint have so many doorbell ringers in our neighborhood, although I've lived where it was a regular occurrence.

I think the weirdest thing I ever saw was one Sunday when I walked to my car in a break between Sunday School and church and found JW's putting their booklets under windshields in the parking lot. There were "parkers" in our church (many people, itty bitty parking lot) who just didn't seem to know what to DO with these people running around the parking lot with their booklets. I'm a no-crap kinda girl, so I WENT right up and stopped one of them (all 5'1" of me) and said, "what are you DOING???" He proclaimed they were sharing their good news with the baptists. I gestured around the parking lot and said, "all these cars? They belong to people who got up this morning, got dressed and drove to THIS church on purpose. I'm guessing they are where they want to be. Maybe you'd have better luck doing that where you're not going to make people angry rather than receptive to your message. Just sayin'". And so they left, but how WEIRD!!!

 

I'm always amazed at how urgent it seems to some people to get others to believe the exact same thing that they do -- or else the others are doomed to eternal torment. After all, this is the moving Force behind the whole universe they're talking about. Why are so many so sure that that Force would be so gosh darned petty? ... And as if one particular set of people constructing documents over hundreds or thousands of years could be absolutely dead certain that their little details are the perfectly and only correct ones.

[latetotheparty]

I'm always amazed at how urgent it seems to some people to get others to believe the exact same thing that they do -- or else the others are doomed to eternal torment. After all, this is the moving Force behind the whole universe they're talking about. Why are so many so sure that that Force would be so gosh darned petty? ... And as if one particular set of people constructing documents over hundreds or thousands of years could be absolutely dead certain that their little details are the perfectly and only correct ones.

Wish I could like this 1000x.

[lookeyloo]

When we had our big German Shepherd dog, he would accompany me to the door, which is half glass.  He was smiling.  He loved company.  Any company.  The door knockers would take one look at him, and back slowly down the walk. Which is funny because he couldn't wait to play with them.  Haven't had any in a long time.

[Happyfatchick]

We have a pit boxer. He's not all "that" big (80 lbs give or take),but he has GIGANTIC teeth and sounds as though he means business. I don't know if he's actually made people get in the car and leave, but I can't tell you how many times I've had fedex or UPS drop packages and run. The dog's favorite thing to do when I'm home alone and the bell rings: barrel at the door and hit it going 90 MPH with teeth showing, spit flying. He's an excellent dog. I walk to the door and say "SIT, Rocky!" And he does immediately. Meanwhile, the FedEx truck is cranking up...

Dogs are a GREAT deterrent for anything unwanted. Maybe that's why I never get religion pushers!

Edited June 14, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[mbutterfly]

Fortunately I've never had to deal with door-to-door proselytizers, just people preaching on the subway and trying to pass out tracts during my morning commute. It's something I've learned to tune out by now. 

There was a street preacher standing along the Gay Pride parade route in our city yesterday, spewing hateful words. A city/county police officer stopped in front of him and ran his siren until the guy gave up. It made a lot of people happy. 

 

[snip]

Edited June 16, 2015 by Rhondinella

[Missy Vixen]

really? you don't see members attacking fundys because of their beliefs?

I am a former fundie. And I will call fundies out every chance I get if they are interfering with the personal lives and the civil rights of other adults.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Missy Vixen

[RazzleberryPie]

We dint have so many doorbell ringers in our neighborhood, although I've lived where it was a regular occurrence.

I think the weirdest thing I ever saw was one Sunday when I walked to my car in a break between Sunday School and church and found JW's putting their booklets under windshields in the parking lot. There were "parkers" in our church (many people, itty bitty parking lot) who just didn't seem to know what to DO with these people running around the parking lot with their booklets. I'm a no-crap kinda girl, so I WENT right up and stopped one of them (all 5'1" of me) and said, "what are you DOING???" He proclaimed they were sharing their good news with the baptists. I gestured around the parking lot and said, "all these cars? They belong to people who got up this morning, got dressed and drove to THIS church on purpose. I'm guessing they are where they want to be. Maybe you'd have better luck doing that where you're not going to make people angry rather than receptive to your message. Just sayin'". And so they left, but how WEIRD!!!

We had a similar instance at our church a few years ago - during Sunday morning service, some group put these really horrendous anti-abortion leaflets on all the car dash boards - really graphic with pictures of real aborted fetuses, lots of blood and gore. Imagine the look of horror the faces of a few children who came out of Sunday school to find that on their minivans. We had to start having a volunteer parking attendant stay in the lot through services to make sure this didn't happen again.

[mbutterfly]

I haven't personally seen any people attacking Christian fundamentalists. I know a lot of people who are disappointed by the Duggars. I know even more people who just think of the Duggars as reality tv people, and they don't care. But, no, I do not see people attacking (putting aside the Duggars who have their own stuff going on) Christian fundamentalists (excepting, of course, the Fundamentalist LDS and the like). I don't even know why anyone would attack a person for Christian fundamentalist beliefs. Now, I do see people who disagree, who vote differently. But truly, no, I have never seen a person being attacked for a Christian fundamentalist faith. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by mbutterfly

[RazzleberryPie]

i will put this question here, as i was told i was off topic last time.

 would there be this amount of hate directed at the duggers if they were muslim instead of christian?

i only ask because, lets face it, being christian makes you an easy target, and to attack the beliefs of, say, muslims, seems to be off limits.

 honest question.

i own a georgia blue tick. one of the smartest dogs in the world.

I think they'd get MORE hate if they were Muslim. Take a look at countries, the UK and France in particular, where Muslim extremists think Sharia law is sufficient punishment for rapes, assault, etc., instead of having to go through proper government channels. I don't think the Duggar issue is a Christian vs Muslim (or anything else) 'what if' issue. I've personally seen as many people defend the Duggars simply because they're vocal evangelical, fundamental Christians as I've seen dislike them for their beliefs. 

[kalamac]

I think it's not so much their beliefs as it is their conduct.

[bound for glory]

I think it's not so much their beliefs as it is their conduct.

 

six of one...

[birkenstock]

I don't think there is a war against Christians in this country.  The vast majority of the country still are part of the Christian faith. That being said, all religious faiths should be respected.  

 

I think that the Duggars would be criticized more if they weren't part of the Christian faith. Those who are defending Jim Bob and Michelle would be condemning any other non Christian family attributing the parent's inaction to prevent sexual abuse for a year to practicing a heathen religion, for living in a "Godless society" and use them as examples for why Jesus needs to be a bigger part of public life.  

 

Muslims are targeted for their beliefs and then are viewed as anti-woman for just having the female members of their family wearing a hijab. They are accused of condoning terrorism.  When Christian domestic terrorists attack, Christianity as a whole isn't viewed as culpable.   

 

Also, fundamentalist Christians only a subsection of the Christian faith in America. There are Christians who are advocates of LGBT issues. A small group of Christians don't get to dictate who is or isn't Christian.

[Vaysh]

 

and thats the point i'm trying to make. christians tell others how they should live. we have rights as americans not to listen. if a more extream religion was the order of the day, you would not be asked. you would do what they said, or you would suffer for it.

ask ISIS how they feel about gay people. last i saw, they were putting them to death.

 

I'm terribly sorry to sound like the discourse analysis nerd I obviously am, but that sounds an awful lot like the logical fallacy of Whataboutism or Tu quoque  or perhaps even more accurately the Fallacy of relative privation.

 

The less nerdy reply would probably  be: Yes, ISIS is doing horrible things to gay people (and to an awful lot of other people as well). What has that got to do with the Duggars? Are you saying that because worse things are happening elsewhere, the Duggars should not be critised for their cover-up and hypocrisy?

 

As for your other question, Muslims are being criticised (and attacked) on a daily basis. And if I remember correctly there was another TLC reality show about Muslim families (All-American Muslims) that was cancelled due to pressure from, among others "born-again Christian David Caton" and sponsors pulling out due to controversy. And those families, unlike the Duggars, hadn't actually done anything wrong.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Vaysh

[Happyfatchick]

really? you don't see members attacking fundys because of their beliefs?

I get what you're saying, and we probably DID jump on the bandwagon and help beat them to death, and in a way because of their beliefs. But not really. We beat them up because they shamelessly promoted themselves to be The Family We Should All Aspire To Be. At least that's MY argument with them. They did that on national TV, they've done it on the news,they've done it on GMA, they've done it in conferences, they did it with the robocall, on FB, on public access Instagram accounts, everywhere they could, they did. Their biggest beef, it seems to me, was with the LGTB community (someone may have to correct that) BECAUSE they believed that community to be likely child molesters. With the St. Son sitting on the board of the FRC. If I've got a big fat something in my family past like that, NO WAY am I setting myself up. No, they never had a segment on air where they sat and "sold" or even promoted their beliefs as Christians like a 3:00 infomercial. But the attitude, the PICTURE they present is that isolation in fundamentalism will make you want to be JUST.LIKE.US. They've left the arena of fundyism and become cultish.

You get to believe what you believe.

I have many, many times stated myself to be a conservative Christian on this forum and have never been attacked. Likewise, people have self identified as COC, COG, atheist, agnostic, Catholic, Lutheran, idontgiveashit, and on and on, NO ONE has been attacked for their beliefs. Not even me. If I felt that we were attacking anyone in particular FOR THEIR BELIEFS, I wouldn't be on this forum. Do we poke fun at them? Sure we do, it's a snark-lite forum, and that's what we come here for. (I think I just made up another word!) It's sort of a release mechanism because we are so frustrated and it gives us space to let off steam.

I will also admit I understand your comparison to Muslims - if we'd give them as much crap as we have given a Christian family, for example. For myself, probably not. I don't have a background in that faith base, whereas I DO have a background in the funds world. The Duggar family is a Caucasian family that could be a family in most towns in America. It's not a stretch for me to say I know someone "duggarish". I don't know many Muslims, there aren't many in my community. The ones I do know are quiet, friendly and peaceful. I'm fairly sure if a Muslim family of 21 got picked up by a reality show and portrayed themselves - promoting their religion and lifestyle to be superior - and then found out they were secretly Methodists, or were targeting gays only then to find out their oldest son molested his SISTERS (and others)... Then yes, there would be a fireball of criticisms. I'd like to think so, anyway.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I don't think there is a war against Christians in this country. The vast majority of the country still are part of the Christian faith. That being said, all religious faiths should be respected.

I think that the Duggars would be criticized more if they weren't part of the Christian faith. Those who are defending Jim Bob and Michelle would be condemning any other non Christian family attributing the parent's inaction to prevent sexual abuse for a year to practicing a heathen religion, for living in a "Godless society" and use them as examples for why Jesus needs to be a bigger part of public life.

Muslims are targeted for their beliefs and then are viewed as anti-woman for just having the female members of their family wearing a hijab. They are accused of condoning terrorism. When Christian domestic terrorists attack, Christianity as a whole isn't viewed as culpable.

Also, fundamentalist Christians only a subsection of the Christian faith in America. There are Christians who are advocates of LGBT issues. A small group of Christians don't get to dictate who is or isn't Christian.

If the Duggars weren't white or Christian; they'd be getting death threats and racial slurs directed at them daily for their beliefs.

[Rhetorica]

and thats the point i'm trying to make. christians tell others how they should live. we have rights as americans not to listen. if a more extream religion was the order of the day, you would not be asked. you would do what they said, or you would suffer for it.

ask ISIS how they feel about gay people. last i saw, they were putting them to death.

So just because they aren't as extreme as ISIS, we're supposed to just let them legislate who can do what by whom based on religious beliefs that are not our own? Yes, we have the right not to listen, but we also have the right to block their efforts to legislate. That's not hate, that's preserving the union.

[Dawn16]

i will put this question here, as i was told i was off topic last time.

 would there be this amount of hate directed at the duggers if they were muslim instead of christian?

i only ask because, lets face it, being christian makes you an easy target, and to attack the beliefs of, say, muslims, seems to be off limits.

 honest question.

i own a georgia blue tick. one of the smartest dogs in the world.

I believe that the amount of hate would be about the same, but many of the people hating them would be different.  Many of the people supporting/defending the Duggars would feel very differently if they were Muslim. OTOH, many people who are harshly critical of the Duggars, especially those critical of their beliefs regardless whether the molestation had occurred, would be much more respectful of their extreme beliefs if they were Muslim.  [Note that I'm not saying "all" people.  I'm moderate Christian who is critical of people, regardless their religious beliefs, who don't protect, educate, and empower all their children, and I'm sure there are people of all religious beliefs/non-beliefs and political views who feel the same way. ] 

[Fosca]

and thats the point i'm trying to make. christians tell others how they should live. we have rights as americans not to listen. if a more extream religion was the order of the day, you would not be asked. you would do what they said, or you would suffer for it.

ask ISIS how they feel about gay people. last i saw, they were putting them to death.

There's pretty much two ways I respond to replies like this:

1. There are places on this country where being openly gay or transgender (or atheist) can also get you killed, by "Christians". I happen to livein oneof those places. I wish I didn't.

2. ISIS also kill Christians, so at least in the US y'all might be mocked, but not killed. Yet that doesn't make Christians feel better.

[MrsChappy]

I think it's too hard to answer the question of if Muslims would be treated better or worse than the Duggars...mainly because a series about a traditional Muslim family highlighting their beliefs would never make it on American television. 

 

I think the common refrain of "Christian intolerance" in this country is bullshit. God forbid you're NOT a Christian...

[JennyMominFL]

i highly recommend watching cbs 60minutes tonight. if you have any questions what muslims want, this report should tell you.

This pretty much tells me all I need to know right here.

But, then, I actually know Muslims and, I actually served along side of them in the Marines. 

The main people being killed by ISIS ARE Muslims. 

I'm sorry you are so attacked. Must be tough being the dominant religion in a Democracy

Edited June 15, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[dillpickles]

i highly recommend watching cbs 60minutes tonight. if you have any questions what muslims want, this report should tell you.

Okay but this isn't about what the Muslims want. This is about the Duggars being hypocrits. And, if the Duggars where muslim, the fall out would be ten times worse.

[bluebonnet]

i will put this question here, as i was told i was off topic last time.

 would there be this amount of hate directed at the duggers if they were muslim instead of christian?

i only ask because, lets face it, being christian makes you an easy target, and to attack the beliefs of, say, muslims, seems to be off limits.

 honest question.

 

A Muslim fundamentalist family would never be given a reality tv show, certainly not one designed to celebrate them and their lifestyle.  I'm not even sure a mainstream Muslim family would be given a mainstream reality show. 

 

And let's not be ridiculous.  The Duggars aren't facing criticism because they are Christian.  They face criticism because they are fundamentalists, or because they are part of a legalistic cult, or because they openly and joyously abuse their children, or because they spew hatred on certain groups of people, or because, I don't know, they covered up their son's crimes then immediately decided to go on tv and portray themselves and this idea family while calling certain types of people child predators and then whey their son's crimes are publicized they decide to say that it was no big deal because the victims were mostly asleep and Josh cried cried cried big tears which is all that's needed for things to be ok.  

 

It's such a strawman to claim they face criticism because they are Christian.  I mean, you go down that rabbit hole and essentially anyone who is Christian only faces criticsm because they are being persecuted for their religion and that's simply not true.  Not in this country.  

[Aethera]

This conversation has been interesting, but I think we've fully discussed it at this point. Back to your regularly scheduled Religion Thread! :)

[Rhetorica]

i highly recommend watching cbs 60minutes tonight. if you have any questions what muslims want, this report should tell you.

Please don't stereotype any religious group. My children grew up with friends who were Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, and Christian. They were all just children. Unfortunately, it's the things children are exposed to when young that make them hate others. Children are not born with hate.

[Chalby]

Thus spake the theology professor.  Take that for whatever you think it might be worth (which could well be nothing at all).  Also note: he approaches this subject from a Protestant, low-church, Wesleyan point of view, so that influences his thinking in this area.

Thank you for the analysis. I laughed when I read another comment that I am 'unsaved" - it's good to see others try to figure where I would stand. I was raised Anglican from birth until 16. And all that time, I had questions. I went through the motions, and if you knew me, you would recognize I am deeply spiritual. I just don't like anything open-ended. All my questions need to be answered before I am fully behind something. To this day, I am still awaiting answers.

 

I hope that's clear.  But if there are any questions please IM either me, maraleia, or frenchtoast.

My mother used to always say that there were three conversations off limits in a place that served alcohol - sex. politics and religion. So, I now realize the Duggar family could never be discussed in a bar because their family manages to dip into everything. I feel for you moderators. What a job!

[MrsMommy]

I guess I'm in disagreement with others, I strongly believe that the duggars wouldn't get so much hate if they weren't christian. A lot of people love to point out the flaws that Christians have or the mistakes they make and this situation is no different IMO

[Joe Jitsu913]

I guess I'm in disagreement with others, I strongly believe that the duggars wouldn't get so much hate if they weren't christian. A lot of people love to point out the flaws that Christians have or the mistakes they make and this situation is no different IMO

The Duggars wouldn't get so much hate if they didn't pontificate about "family values" and try to limit the rights of others. If you take the Gothardite cult/Christian beliefs out of the equation, they would be still be just as despicable. Using their brand of Christianity is just another crutch for them to relate to others while dictating their morals on everyone: See, we're Christian which means we're good people...just like you!

Except they're not. It's just a smokescreen and I guarantee you, I would find them just as hypocritical if you took away the Christian facade.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Joe Jitsu913

[Darknight]

Here in America all you have to do is claim Jesus and be white. Then all is forgiven. If the Duggars were black, they would have no show. If the Duggars were Muslim or atheist no way in hell would they be able to get away with shit like this. People would call them terrorist or claim they're evil and need jesus

[cmr2014]

I guess I'm in disagreement with others, I strongly believe that the duggars wouldn't get so much hate if they weren't christian. A lot of people love to point out the flaws that Christians have or the mistakes they make and this situation is no different IMO

 

I disagree. The Duggars are hardly mainstream Christians, and they have made a living off of exploiting their non-traditional lifestyle.

 

If they were a Pakistani-American family where the father was choosing husbands for his daughters, I think people would comment about it.

 

If they were an Hasidic family, and the children were only allowed to study sacred texts and not allowed to study math or science, I think people would comment.

 

If they were a Muslim family, and the children were home schooled and had no opportunities to interact with non-Muslim children, I think that people would comment.

 

We actually know very little about their beliefs, other than that they are Christian -- their actual beliefs are not really shown, and are not part of the show. We know about their political beliefs because they make appearances and engage in activities outside of the show that demonstrate their social conservatism -- and many of those opinions are disliked by people on this board.

 

Personally, I think that the opposite it true.I think that many of the people who are defending them would not do so if they were not Christian.

 

ETA: For what it's worth, I can understand wanting to see a good, wholesome Christian family on television, and I can understand the feeling that that sort of show would be mocked by mainstream culture, but this is not that show. The Duggars are not the Waltons. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by cmr2014

[bluebonnet]

I guess I'm in disagreement with others, I strongly believe that the duggars wouldn't get so much hate if they weren't christian. A lot of people love to point out the flaws that Christians have or the mistakes they make and this situation is no different IMO

I just haven't seen any evidence of this.  Sex scandals are often big deals, especially when it involves children.  Hypocrisy is also usually a big deal, especially when it involves calling other people child predators and effectively banning a class of people from using the bathroom while also having shielded a child molestor.  That the Duggars are Christians is incidental.  

 

Compare this situation with Honey Boo Boo.  A child predator scandal caused public outrage.  Calls for removing them from the air were made and within seven hours, the show had been canceled.  The family happens to identify as Christian.  I can't imagine anyone would claim they lost their job exclusively for being Christian.  

 

If there is hard evidence to support the theory that the Duggars are being 'persecuted' due to their faith, I'd love to see it.  The closest I've seen it come has been harsh criticism for their lifestyle and the way they practice their faith as it is inherently abusive to women and children.  That, however, is not an attack on the simple fact of being Christian, but the way they behave.  That "old time religion" stuff can be cutesy, but the legalistic cult stuff is very damaging.  

Edited June 15, 2015 by bluebonnet

[mbutterfly]

I guess I'm in disagreement with others, I strongly believe that the duggars wouldn't get so much hate if they weren't christian. A lot of people love to point out the flaws that Christians have or the mistakes they make and this situation is no different IMO

And I'm guessing at least 85% of the criticism of Christians and their flaws and mistakes comes from Christians. Because we do have flaws and make mistakes. 

[not2serious]

Here in America all you have to do is claim Jesus and be white. Then all is forgiven. If the Duggars were black, they would have no show. If the Duggars were Muslim or atheist no way in hell would they be able to get away with shit like this. People would call them terrorist or claim they're evil and need jesus

 

I agree with this.  I am disgusted with the graceless "gospel" of the Gothardites, which tries to suggest that you can behave yourself into God's favor (which is completely counter to evangelical Christianity) , and then screams about being human and not perfect when their own sins are pointed out.  

 

And I don't get why people are defending their lifestyle when it clearly doesn't work. [snip]

 

I'll preface this with saying that religiously, I have traditional views on marriage, but my views have nothing to do with what I think the law should be.  There is an irony in wanting the sins of others to be illegal (abortion, same-sex marriage), but not acknowledging that the sin in your own house is a CRIME.   A woman should be a criminal for having a medical procedure, but we should just understand your son's curiosity?  Well, in the same breath, I can understand how a woman can find herself in a position that she doesn't want to be pregnant.  I can understand that two people who love each other want their relationship acknowledged by the law.  I can understand that someone wants to use the restroom that matches the gender that they live as.  Or does understanding only work if you're in an uptight pseudo-Christian cult?

Edited June 15, 2015 by bigskygirl
Speculating about why Josh molested girls

[galax-arena]

A lot of people love to point out the flaws that Christians have or the mistakes they make and this situation is no different IMO

This typically happens because the Christians in question have set themselves up as morally superior to other people. David Kinnaman goes into this in UnChristian. He points out that one of the reasons that many young people have left the church is because it's so full of hypocritcal moral judgment. People are more willing to overlook hypocrisy in and of itself because we're all hypocrites to a degree but it chafes more when the hypocrisy comes with a side of smug moral superiority. The Duggars got shit because they were slandering other people as child molesters and portraying themselves as the arbiters of morality. What's that saying? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. And I do think this is a problem with a lot of other conservative religions/denominations, but a) the Duggars were really freakin' loud about it and b) Christians are still the dominant/privileged group in the US. 

 

And Kinnaman himself is a conservative Christian who adheres to the traditional stance on many hot-button issues (e.g. abortion, same-sex marriage), so IMO his comments can't be brushed off as being unfairly biased.

Edited June 15, 2015 by galax-arena

[GEML]

I'm former Fundy with some extended family who dress and act in such a way as to make the Duggars seem pretty liberal, to tell you the truth. (Promise rings? That's vain adornment of the body, thank you....)

But there's no outcry against them. I have ties to Amish and Mennonite communities which are often downright revered in America for their Fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

But I do agree that there are people who know nothing about the family who hate them. There are people who are enjoying their sordid downfall.

But I believe it's because they are not only Christian and Fundamentlist, but very active in a political way. I realize that there are many who will equate their political beliefs with "Christian" beliefs, but that is a very recent development constructed by power brokers. I am old enough to remember a Christian and Fundy world where politics was NEVER discussed.

Now, they have every right to speak out politically. I believe that and will fight for that 100%. But that's not the same as being persecuted for Christianity (I'm a Christian, and I'm certainly not persecuted) or even for Fundamentalism. Because the flip side of their right to speak out politically is another's right to speak out against them.

Politics is a DIRTY business. There is a very good reason Christians stayed out of it until the late 1970's. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. The Duggars just need to deal with their own fleas right now instead of insisting everyone else has them but them.

[JenCarroll]

As a Jew, the cry that Christians in America are being persecuted or even attacked for their beliefs makes me want to slam my head into the wall. Repeatedly. And no, I do NOT believe that Jews are being persecuted in America. America has been very good for Jews overall, one of the best environments we've ever had in the diaspora. That said, the amount of casual anti-semitism one encounters in everyday life might surprise you. The casual othering; the insults tossed into conversations that are not even about Judaism OR individual Jews; the vicious hatred that can spring up unexpectedly at any time -- and this is what we consider NOT being persecuted. This is how it is every day, in a very very good place for Jews (everything's relative and the Jewish people have a long collective memory). You have no idea.

I'm sorry I had to add my voice to this discussion, given that the entire thing was prompted by a straw man argument I'd otherwise prefer not to dignify. And I may get mod noted, or deleted. Sorry. I find I'm just not able to let it pass.

Edited June 15, 2015 by JenCarroll

[questionfear]

I'm former Fundy with some extended family who dress and act in such a way as to make the Duggars seem pretty liberal, to tell you the truth. (Promise rings? That's vain adornment of the body, thank you....)

But there's no outcry against them. I have ties to Amish and Mennonite communities which are often downright revered in America for their Fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

But I do agree that there are people who know nothing about the family who hate them. There are people who are enjoying their sordid downfall.

But I believe it's because they are not only Christian and Fundamentlist, but very active in a political way. I realize that there are many who will equate their political beliefs with "Christian" beliefs, but that is a very recent development constructed by power brokers. I am old enough to remember a Christian and Fundy world where politics was NEVER discussed.

Now, they have every right to speak out politically. I believe that and will fight for that 100%. But that's not the same as being persecuted for Christianity (I'm a Christian, and I'm certainly not persecuted) or even for Fundamentalism. Because the flip side of their right to speak out politically is another's right to speak out against them.

Politics is a DIRTY business. There is a very good reason Christians stayed out of it until the late 1970's. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. The Duggars just need to deal with their own fleas right now instead of insisting everyone else has them but them.

 

I can't speak to why others dislike the Duggars, but my issue is purely political. I have no issue with someone preaching that I am not welcome in their religion, or that I am a sinner. Everyone is free to their own beliefs. My issue is when people believe their religion should dictate the laws of their municipality/state/country, because this is not a 100% Christian nation. 

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again: I had a jewish wedding. My wife and I stood under a Chuppah, we signed a Ketubah, our union was blessed by a rabbi (technically it was done twice, thanks to civil unions changing to marriage later on, but I digress). At no point did we ask a church to host us, speak to a priest or a pastor about our marriage, or even involve christianity in any way. We have a child, who has been named in the Jewish faith with hebrew names and pledged to be raised Jewish. Beyond religion, we pay taxes and live productive quiet lives.

 

So what gives the Duggars the right to say my family should be dissolved or is immoral? I'm not asking to attend the Church of Jim Bob, I could care less about them, except that they actively pursue ways to prevent me living my quiet happy life that in no way overlaps with theirs. I don't know if it's politics or a gross misinterpretation of the bible that drives them to believe their beliefs should govern the lives of everyone around them, but that's why I dislike them so much.

 

And that goes for any religion's fringe/activist group-I have similar issues with many branches of Hasidim (ultra-fringe-Orthodox-Jews). On the other hand, I have orthodox jewish relatives who probably are secretly uncomfortable with having a lesbian cousin, but that didn't stop them from coming to my wedding, and even making sure my very elderly great aunt could make it as well. If they have any issues, they've kept it to themselves. The Amish may think I'm a godless sinner, but they've never protested or made robocalls about it.

 

I was living in Boston when Massachusetts became the first state to legally issue same-sex marriage licenses. I stood on the steps of the courthouse in Cambridge and watched as deliriously happy couples came running out clutching the first fully legal same-sex marriage licenses issued in the USA. The crowd was enormous and so, so, happy-and across the street, behind a police blockade, was a tiny contingent of protesters. I remember looking at them and thinking that they must be sad, small minded people to see such a happy occasion and to feel the urge to protest it...people were getting married and the skies hadn't opened up and struck us all down. The vibe was so overwhelmingly happy, and there were these sad, angry protesters. Angry that their attempts to cheat the system had failed, that their nasty little worldview wasn't the winner (there were repeated cases of fraud involving attempts to get people to sign petitions protesting the law before it went into effect-they would stand outside grocery stores and tell people it was a petition to stop something universally bad, say, horsemeat in kid's lunches, and then they would casually say "oh, and sign the second page too" and BOOM, they had illegally gathered a signature against same-sex marriage).

I don't hate christians. I hate anyone who wishes to steal away my rights, and unfortunately, right now, in 2015, in the United States of America, those people are using the blanket of christianity to hide themselves and their black little hearts.

[KatWay]

As far as I can tell, the Christians who claim they are being discriminated and persecuted in a Western country are almost entirely very conservative Christians, like the Duggars, who are annoyed that the law doesn't support their idea of morality. I've never heard a mainstream Christian complain about facing discriminiation - mainly, because they don't care as much that their moral views cannot be forced on every other person in the country as well.

 

The Duggars feel treated unfairly because the rest of the country won't accept their views on morality and law and won't persecute the people they want to be punished (LGTB, women who dress scantily, had abortions, etc) but instead frowns upon people they feel are totally a-okay (boys who molested their underage sisters and were helped by their parents to cover this up).

[MrsMommy]

The reason I feel the way I do is because you never see any good about Christians on tv, you get breaking news that christian man has murdered dog (example) but you don't hear that he murdered the dog because the dog attacked his child and ate her face. The news doesn't tell the world about the Christians who do go on missions and actually help, it doesn't tell about the churches who spend hours making meals for people who can't cook, or how the church donates money to different organizations that help people. The media only covers the bad and ugly. If Josh had went out and gave 5 million dollars to a nursing home (because he is famous it might be mentioned) but it wouldn't spend weeks on the news. We talked about this in church the other week, the general public only hears the bad never the good and Christians do so much good.

My mom for instance she is a lesbians, she is an alcoholic, she doesn't wear girl clothes or makeup, if you seen her on the street you would think she is a dude. I love my mom with my whole entire heart and would lay down my life for her, but if you ask her I'm smug, I'm a bad christian. I have paid her gas bill 3 winters in a row, I have sent her money for food, I put new floors all through her house, I've done everything I could for her. She asked me if I could come to her wedding If she married tonya, I flat out told her no I'm sorry but that's something I don't think i could do (because I'm a Christian and I believe the bible 100% And the bible says don't engage in that) and because of that one thing anytime we argue she throws it up in my face. She isn't the media but she is a great example of how you can do a thousand good things and the only thing people see is the one thing they concider bad.

anyway I enjoyed reading yalls reasoning even though it's different than mine, I respect yalls opinions but it isn't going to change mine.