Gimme That Old Time Religion

[GeeGolly]

I believe the church that closed in TX due to covid was a Catholic church.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I believe the church that closed in TX due to covid was a Catholic church.

Yes, a Catholic church in Houston closed after one of their priests died from the virus.  

[PikaScrewChu]

Holy shit. Mind you I haven't been keeping up but I know the church back home still hasn't re-opened because they haven't done the funeral for my parents' neighbour who passed away. It won't be for quite a while despite everything else being open for business. I assumed most Catholic churches were being just as cautious.

Yikes. 😬

[Churchhoney]

20 minutes ago, PikaScrewChu said:

Holy shit. Mind you I haven't been keeping up but I know the church back home still hasn't re-opened because they haven't done the funeral for my parents' neighbour who passed away. It won't be for quite a while despite everything else being open for business. I assumed most Catholic churches were being just as cautious.

Yikes. 😬

They opened back up on May 2 and were doing pretty major social distancing, apparently.  The church holds 900 people, and they were keeping the number to 179, max, they said. But they were still doing too little, it seems. 

https://d2y1pz2y630308.cloudfront.net/2329/documents/2020/5/Media Release Holy Ghost Church COVID-19 update.pdf

 

 

 

[PikaScrewChu]

I mean, most churches I've been to don't have things like adequate ventilation to start off with. The church I was baptized in is well over a hundred years old and somehow still running services. Even with proper physical distancing, you're breathing in everyone else's gunk. That and looking at how they are cleaning buses, schools, etc. I don't think most places could a) withstand the level of power washing without some damage and b) could put money towards that (willingly).

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, PikaScrewChu said:

I mean, most churches I've been to don't have things like adequate ventilation to start off with. The church I was baptized in is well over a hundred years old and somehow still running services. Even with proper physical distancing, you're breathing in everyone else's gunk. That and looking at how they are cleaning buses, schools, etc. I don't think most places could a) withstand the level of power washing without some damage and b) could put money towards that (willingly).

That's been my thoughts on this the whole time. It doesn't matter how well you practice social distancing, I suspect, if you're all crammed in the same quarters with each other for awhile, breathing the same air. 

[Absolom]

Ventilation in many churches, even new ones is open a few windows and a door or two if they have them. I've heard from a few pastors that by the time the heat or A/C would get going the service would be over anyway.  Those are places I usually didn't bother visiting a second time. 

Our diocese still has mass shut down though.  It seems the Texas church in question was following the state guidelines and had been closed.   My doctor says the two main places to avoid are church and stores like Costco and Sam's.  I think he's right.  The only times I've caught flu in the last 20 years, I had been either to church or Costco.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Absolom

[GeeGolly]

Churches, restaurants and big stores like Costco share two big risk factors; larger amount of people and longer amount of time spent in an enclosed area. Those factors increase the likelihood of catching anything, but even more so a highly contagious virus.

The TTH fits in that category as well.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

20 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Churches, restaurants and big stores like Costco share two big risk factors; larger amount of people and longer amount of time spent in an enclosed area. Those factors increase the likelihood of catching anything, but even more so a highly contagious virus.

The TTH fits in that category as well.

 

Yes, especially if the Duggars stay inside all day.  I don't see JB or Michelle opening the windows and doors to air the place out.  From what I have read, air-conditioning especially in commercial spaces helps to spread the virus.  

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

From what I have read, air-conditioning especially in commercial spaces helps to spread the virus.  

That's how Chris Cuomo thinks his family got it from him even though he quarantined in the basement.  He thinks it spread through the vents.

[fonfereksglen]

29 minutes ago, Absolom said:

That's how Chris Cuomo thinks his family got it from him even though he quarantined in the basement.  He thinks it spread through the vents.

Except .... he very publically broke quarantine one time for sure.  Who knows how many other times?

[Sew Sumi]

7 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

Except .... he very publically broke quarantine one time for sure.  Who knows how many other times?

What did he do? I missed it.

[SMama]

I read somewhere he went to the gym and there’s video of him lifting weights without a mask. A man claims he called  Cuomo on being out while allegedly in quarantine, and was called a jackass. I was very disappointed to see that short video.

[DangerousMinds]

2 minutes ago, SMama said:

I read somewhere he went to the gym and there’s video of him lifting weights without a mask. A man claims he called  Cuomo on being out while allegedly in quarantine, and was called a jackass. I was very disappointed to see that short video.

Hmm, I thought the story was someone saw him out on his own property with his family (6 ft apart?) not sure any of those rumors are the truth.

[SMama]

Found this, you are correct. But I do recall the weight lifting video.

[Marshmallow Mollie]

My church building is closed until at least June 30th. They have installed automatic faucets, paper towel dispensers, etc. I have young children, and I generally don’t attend church during the height of cold and flu season. My church has had services available both through livestream and on YouTube, but I never took advantage of that. Computer church just seemed too weird. One good thing to come out of this is that I will have gotten used to computer church and will watch in the future.

Re: circulating air, I have wondered about this, too. I used to work in animal sheltering, and the state inspector would always harp on us for not having a separate system for our isolation and quarantine areas. We would always get points off the state inspection for that. On the human side, where I currently live there is an outbreak due to a meat packing plant. It started in the plant and is now traveling through the families of the employees. The public health director is urging to the sick to isolate in their houses with a bedroom and bathroom dedicated just to the sick, but these families have crowded houses with one bathroom. It’s a terrible situation. 
 

In my house we could dedicate the upstairs to someone sick, but my first thought was the circulating air. 

[EAG46]

Near where I live is a Baptist church that sometimes has amusing signs.  The recent one: "This too shall pass.  It may pass like a kidney stone, but it will pass."  They are closed for in-person services and are online only because my county is hit hard.  All the local houses of worship are operating online only no matter the religion.  The DMV [District, Maryland, Virginia] isn't screwing around.  God is everywhere so She should be happy Her people are being cautious. But apparently that's not good enough for some people.

[Picture It. Sicily]

Sexual abuse in the Amish community

An interesting article discussing the sexual abuse rampant in the Amish community. They handle it similarly to how the Duggars did. (Forgive and force the victim to forgive and blame the victim) It also discusses how adult survivors got out and are now working to educate and change things for children now.

[EAG46]

Is racism a sin?  That's what evangelicals are figuring out: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/06/871014393/evangelical-christians-grapple-with-racism-as-sin  Somehow I doubt if the Duggars or their associates are as thoughtful.  

[ouinason]

Yes, racism is a sin.  No Christian should hold themselves above others.  All people are children of God and beloved by Him.  He doesn't just love white people, or love any of his people best.  

[MonicaM]

14 minutes ago, ouinason said:

Yes, racism is a sin.  No Christian should hold themselves above others.  All people are children of God and beloved by Him.  He doesn't just love white people, or love any of his people best.  

It's appalling to me that anyone, particularly someone who claims to be a Christian, thinks this is a debatable issue.  Yes, racism is a sin.  How on earth could it not be?????

[Jynnan tonnix]

17 hours ago, MonicaM said:

It's appalling to me that anyone, particularly someone who claims to be a Christian, thinks this is a debatable issue.  Yes, racism is a sin.  How on earth could it not be?????

Well, the God of the Old Testament did seem to condone bouts of genocide on occasion, and definitely had His Chosen People. I know that Christianity is based more on the New Testament, but especially Fundies love to pick and choose their OT issues as well.

[doodlebug]

3 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Well, the God of the Old Testament did seem to condone bouts of genocide on occasion, and definitely had His Chosen People. I know that Christianity is based more on the New Testament, but especially Fundies love to pick and choose their OT issues as well.

Fundies, for all their talk of Jesus, really do seem to prefer the God of the OT, don't they?  The notion of a vengeful god who sends plague and famine to punish the infidels is really appealing to them,  They do seem to want to believe that god is going to send a thunderbolt to strike down the sinners even though Jesus' message was completely contrary to that version.

[GeeGolly]

Is there any organized religion that truly embraces everyone?

[Churchhoney]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Is there any organized religion that truly embraces everyone?

Well, I think Jains and Unitarian Universalists come closest.

The catch is that since they strongly believe in tolerance it's hard for them to be tolerant of other faiths' intolerance. 😈

Edited June 9, 2020 by Churchhoney

[crazy8s]

good old boy Jerry Falwell Jr is back in the national news today - national news has picked it up.

https://www.wsls.com/news/local/2020/06/08/liberty-universitys-jerry-falwell-issues-3-tweet-apology-for-controversial-mask-tweet/

[doodlebug]

7 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

good old boy Jerry Falwell Jr is back in the national news today - national news has picked it up.

https://www.wsls.com/news/local/2020/06/08/liberty-universitys-jerry-falwell-issues-3-tweet-apology-for-controversial-mask-tweet/

He's been ranting and raving about the governor for a while, and, of course, even his apology was a non-apology; he was just reminding everyone of the gov's racist past, people.  He is such a horse's as*.

[Nysha]

Most of the evangelical christians I know prefer Paul to Jesus, although they would never admit that.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Nysha said:

Most of the evangelical christians I know prefer Paul to Jesus, although they would never admit that.

If it wasn't terrible, sin or blasphemy to they would hate Jesus. Jesus is for everything their against. Which is why they chose to ignore everything He did and said. Paul and parts of OT allows them to be as horrible as they want.

[ouinason]

I'm a Southern Baptist who was taught, very emphatically, that Jesus ushered in a New Covenant with God and that it supersedes the OT, though we should still find value in the lessons of the OT.  Jesus wiped the slate clean and started new with his sacrifice, that was the POINT of the sacrifice!  You aren't really very observant of Christianity if you disregard that.  You aren't really Christian at all if you disregard that since the whole of Christian faith is to believe in Jesus and his sacrifice for our sins.  Going by the OT the way some people do is doing just that.

[zoomama]

8 hours ago, ouinason said:

I'm a Southern Baptist who was taught, very emphatically, that Jesus ushered in a New Covenant with God and that it supersedes the OT, though we should still find value in the lessons of the OT.  Jesus wiped the slate clean and started new with his sacrifice, that was the POINT of the sacrifice!  You aren't really very observant of Christianity if you disregard that.  You aren't really Christian at all if you disregard that since the whole of Christian faith is to believe in Jesus and his sacrifice for our sins.  Going by the OT the way some people do is doing just that.

claps hands!!!

[Temperance]

I was looking up fundie related stuff and came across this conference for people interested. 

Evolution Exposed Conference

This is a great conference for believer and unbeliever alike. Bring your doubts, bring your questions, bring your curiosity, get equipped to respond, and learn why evolution has been called “a fairy tale for grownups.”

The event will conclude with an hour-long Q&A panel, where we’ll take your questions live.

The online conference is Saturday, June 27, 12—6 p.m. (ET). Speakers include Ken Ham, Ray Comfort, Dan Biddle, Bryan Osborne, Eric Hovind, Emeal (“E.Z.”) Zwayne, Mark Spence, and others to be announced.

Early-bird pricing is $25 (until June 6); regular pricing is $35. Normally a conference like this would cost $100 or more, but in these difficult times we’ve made it rock bottom to allow as many to attend as possible.

Pastors and missionaries can attend this conference free by applying for complimentary registration.

For people, who don't remember, Ken Ham is the guy who built the Ark Encounters musuem. The Duggars and their friends love to go to Ark Encounters. I like that normally this would cost money, but in these difficult times they've made pricing "rock bottom".  Also they probably reduced the cost since it's virtual and they can't offer any amenities and don't have to rent space. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the Duggars livestream this event. 

[Sew Sumi]

That lineup of speakers is crazy on a cracker. Don't forget that Ham also founded the Creation Museum.

[Temperance]

20 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

That lineup of speakers is crazy on a cracker. Don't forget that Ham also founded the Creation Museum.

I didn't know Ken Ham did that! It's surprising for some reason. For some reason I thought Ark Encounters was in Missouri, but they're both in Kentucky. According to google driving, it's about an hour from Ark Encounter to Creation Museum. I wonder why they're not closer together. Maybe they're both intended as pit stops on a longer journey. Or maybe Ken Ham can only screw over each county once and then on to next one. 

[Churchhoney]

26 minutes ago, Temperance said:

I didn't know Ken Ham did that! It's surprising for some reason. For some reason I thought Ark Encounters was in Missouri, but they're both in Kentucky.  

It's what earned him the nickname "Ayatollah of Appalachia." 😁

 

[Ohiopirate02]

Something tells me Emeal "EZ" Zwayne is an expert biologist.  I'm riveted. 

Seriously though,  how is that an adult male name outside of rappers and exotic dancers.  Even then, most men who choose those professions would laugh at it.

[Churchhoney]

40 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Something tells me Emeal "EZ" Zwayne is an expert biologist.  I'm riveted. 

Seriously though,  how is that an adult male name outside of rappers and exotic dancers.  Even then, most men who choose those professions would laugh at it.

I guess that guy was a gang member who moved into Christian-movie making after converting. So the name harks to a past gangster life and a current showbiz life. 

It's interesting that not one of the people on that list represents the "scientists who argue for intelligent design" contingent......

Last time I looked, most of the scientists who've famously pushed those ideas still tend to push them.....So I wonder whether they're shying away from Ham because the connection threatens their credibility so much that they fear losing their jobs...or whether Ham's moved off inviting scientists in favor of actors and preachers who are better at getting the audience excited and don't subject anybody to discussions of biology and geology (even the semi-fantasizing creationist kind). 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

15 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I guess that guy was a gang member who moved into Christian-movie making after converting. So the name harks to a past gangster life and a current showbiz life. 

It's interesting that not one of the people on that list represents the "scientists who argue for intelligent design" contingent......

Last time I looked, most of the scientists who've famously pushed those ideas still tend to push them.....So I wonder whether they're shying away from Ham because the connection threatens their credibility so much that they fear losing their jobs...or whether Ham's moved off inviting scientists in favor of actors and preachers who are better at getting the audience excited and don't subject anybody to discussions of biology and geology (even the semi-fantasizing creationist kind). 

Ham (and his minions) write critically about intelligent design on his website, so ID proponents may not be welcome at this event. 

[Sew Sumi]

Yeah, ID is probably almost as evil as evolution in these creationist circles.

[PikaScrewChu]

Why have a conference and Q&A? We all know their views haven't evolved in the past few decades. 

I will see myself out. 

[Churchhoney]

20 minutes ago, Zella said:

Ham (and his minions) write critically about intelligent design on his website, so ID proponents may not be welcome at this event. 

Interesting. They used to make common cause to some extent......I suppose this means that creationist belief is so advanced in American churches now that using any science-related talk to win people over is no longer required? 

Yikes. 

We're going backwards and apparently at a fast clip. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

21 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Interesting. They used to make common cause to some extent......I suppose this means that creationist belief is so advanced in American churches now that using any science-related talk to win people over is no longer required? 

Yikes. 

We're going backwards and apparently at a fast clip. 

I think in the past few years, Ham has really drilled down on the young earth creationist aspect to the point that he's not willing to work with intelligent design proponents anymore than they are him. 

I don't know if you've ever seen on his website where he talks about "approved" colleges that are in keeping with his ideas. It's a pretty limited list.

https://answersingenesis.org/colleges/

It's very telling to me that my alma mater--College of the Ozarks--isn't on the list. That place was a fundie Calvinist hellhole, but my understanding (at least when I was there) is that the science faculty wasn't on board with creationism as you'd expect. I never took a science class there because I was a transfer student so this is all secondhand info (and I don't know if that's still true), but that shocked me because in the humanities department, they were really cracking down on everything that wasn't in keeping with their beliefs. Like, even talking about Marxist literary theory was verboten. We got around it by exaggeratedly saying "Not that I'm a Marxist!" as a token proclamation before any Marxist discussion happened.

But yeah that place doesn't even pass muster with Ken Ham. Who does? Jeremy's seminary.    

Edited June 19, 2020 by Zella

[Sew Sumi]

I saw Clown College as well but not Ben's semi alma mater (still not sure if he ever graduated) Moody Bible Institute.

[Churchhoney]

33 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think in the past few years, Ham has really drilled down on the young earth creationist aspect to the point that he's not willing to work with intelligent design proponents anymore than they are him. 

I don't know if you've ever seen on his website where he talks about "approved" colleges that are in keeping with his ideas. It's a pretty limited list.

https://answersingenesis.org/colleges/

It's very telling to me that my alma mater--College of the Ozarks--isn't on the list. That place was a fundie Calvinist hellhole, but my understanding (at least when I was there) is that the science faculty wasn't on board with creationism as you'd expect. I never took a science class there because I was a transfer student so this is all secondhand info (and I don't know if that's still true), but that shocked me because in the humanities department, they were really cracking down on everything that wasn't in keeping with their beliefs. Like, even talking about Marxist literary theory was verboten. We got around it by exaggeratedly saying "Not that I'm a Marxist!" as a token proclamation before any Marxist discussion happened.

But yeah that place doesn't even pass muster with Ken Ham. Who does? Jeremy's seminary.    

Wow. 

Yeah, it's been somewhere between 7 and 10 years, I guess, since I've really looked at Answers in Genesis. It doesn't seem that long, but that's how long it is....

At that point, they were still granting at least provisional credibility to the whole range of science-based arguments against evolution. Basically trying to marshal all the varieties of skepticisms they could and point to them as additional evidence of evolution's folly, it seemed.....While they didn't say they embraced the arguments of the actual science-based "creation-science" people, it seemed to me that they saw everybody fighting against acceptance of evolution as a kind of ally in getting evolution out of the schools and converting more people to accepting creation science in at least some form....

But as I look at it now, I see they've dumped that altogether. I always figured that Ham would have liked to be able to do that. But I naively thought that as a nation we'd gradually go the other away --move slowly toward more logic-and-fact-based approaches.

But NO..... Obviously now he doesn't feel the need for any support from anybody but total young Earthers -- and not even the science-type of young Earthers -- So he must feel he has a big audience of people who'll embrace a biblical account as literal proof without any question. And I assume he's right about having that audience. 

I was reading just now about the numbers of public school field trips there have been to the Creation Museum.....And while for decades there's been serious reluctance by American public-school teachers to actually teach evolution, taking kids to a museum where humans ride on dinosaurs shows the anti-evolutionist educators have a new confidence in the acceptability of  their views. So just having the Museum there has probably pushed that along. 

I suggest that, if this is the way Americans are thinking, those who embrace these views should probably give up their combustion engines and electric lights, too. That way all their scientific views would be in line with one another.....and it'd help clean up the environment, too. 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[awaken]

36 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think in the past few years, Ham has really drilled down on the young earth creationist aspect to the point that he's not willing to work with intelligent design proponents anymore than they are him. 

I don't know if you've ever seen on his website where he talks about "approved" colleges that are in keeping with his ideas. It's a pretty limited list.

https://answersingenesis.org/colleges/

It's very telling to me that my alma mater--College of the Ozarks--isn't on the list. That place was a fundie Calvinist hellhole, but my understanding (at least when I was there) is that the science faculty wasn't on board with creationism as you'd expect. I never took a science class there because I was a transfer student so this is all secondhand info (and I don't know if that's still true), but that shocked me because in the humanities department, they were really cracking down on everything that wasn't in keeping with their beliefs. Like, even talking about Marxist literary theory was verboten. We got around it by exaggeratedly saying "Not that I'm a Marxist!" as a token proclamation before any Marxist discussion happened.

But yeah that place doesn't even pass muster with Ken Ham. Who does? Jeremy's seminary.    

Thanks for that college link!  Fascinating! My alma mater, a Christian university, is not listed!  I also see many familiar names from living in the fundie world. 

it was also interesting to see that several of the academic deans are women!  😱

[Churchhoney]

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

I th

But yeah that place doesn't even pass muster with Ken Ham. Who does? Jeremy's seminary.    

Whew. And I'm relieved to see that MacArthur's Master's University makes the list too. Wouldn't want old John to be inconsistent in his retrograde thinking. He's really got himself in among the nutbar institutions by qualifying his schools for that list. 

Glad to see that at least some people aren't making the list. The Moody Institutes aren't on the list. Nor are any of the Southern Baptist seminaries, thank goodness. .... 

[Zella]

8 minutes ago, awaken said:

Thanks for that college link!  Fascinating! My alma mater, a Christian university, is not listed!  I also see many familiar names from living in the fundie world. 

it was also interesting to see that several of the academic deans are women!  😱

You're welcome! It's a weirdly fascinating list!

14 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Wow. 

Yeah, it's been somewhere between 7 and 10 years, I guess, since I've really looked at Answers in Genesis. It doesn't seem that long, but that's how long it is....

At that point, they were still granting at least provisional credibility to the whole range of science-based arguments against evolution. Basically trying to marshal all the varieties of skepticisms they could and point to them as additional evidence of evolution's folly, it seemed.....While they didn't say they embraced the arguments of the actual science-based "creation-science" people, it seemed to me that they saw everybody fighting against acceptance of evolution as a kind of ally in getting evolution out of the schools and converting more people to accepting creation science in at least some form....

But as I look at it now, I see they've dumped that altogether. I always figured that Ham would have liked to be able to do that. But I naively thought that as a nation we'd gradually go the other away --move slowly toward more logic-and-fact-based approaches.

But NO..... Obviously now he doesn't feel the need for any support from anybody but total young Earthers -- and not even the science-type of young Earthers -- So he must feel he has a big audience of people who'll embrace a biblical account as literal proof without any question. And I assume he's right about having that audience. 

I was reading just now about the numbers of public school field trips there have been to the Creation Museum.....And while for decades there's been serious reluctance by American public-school teachers to actually teach evolution, taking kids to a museum where humans ride on dinosaurs shows the anti-evolutionist educators have a new confidence in the acceptability of  their views. So just having the Museum there has probably pushed that along. 

I suggest that, if this is the way Americans are thinking, those who embrace these views should probably give up their combustion engines and electric lights, too. That way all their scientific views would be in line with one another.....and it'd help clean up the environment, too. 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think many people are swayed by logic and reason in most instances. From the Christians I've met who are big Ken Ham fans, I think a lot of it really just boils down to they like his Australian accent and they have the vague impression that he agrees with them. I don't know that they actually make an effort to really seek out anything he says or has written. It baffles me that some people apparently think he's charming. To me, he's about as charming as a headless lizard. I'd venture to say most fundamentalist Christians, if put on the spot, could not really articulate a very good summary of any of the main schools of thought about evolution versus creation (and to be fair that's probably true of a lot of the general population, regardless of their beliefs), so they're more likely to just go with a personality than anything else. And Ken Ham, if nothing else, has done a good job of staking himself out as a personality in their world. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Zella

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, Zella said:

You're welcome! It's a weirdly fascinating list!

Unfortunately, I don't think many people are swayed by logic and reason in most instances. From the Christians I've met who are big Ken Ham fans, I think a lot of it really just boils down to they like his Australian accent and they have the vague impression that he agrees with them. I don't know that they actually make an effort to really seek out anything he says or has written. It baffles me that some people apparently think he's charming. To me, he's about as charming as a headless lizard. I'd venture to say most fundamentalist Christians, if put on the spot, could not really articulate a very good summary of any of the main schools of thought about evolution versus creation, so they're more likely to just go with a personality than anything else. And Ken Ham, if nothing else, has done a good job of staking himself out as a personality in their world. 

Yeah, I agree with you completely about Ham.

I talked to him a few times back in the day, and I felt the same. Even then, when he was clearly trying to be more accommodating to the world than he apparently is these days, I didn't think he was charming at all. For one thing, he had nothing but canned responses to everything. And each canned response was just an impenetrable wall of some kind. He wasn't willing or able to engage in any discussion whatsoever. 

And I only find Aussie accents charming when they come from charming Aussies! 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

And I only find Aussie accents charming when they come from charming Aussies! 

Word! 

I've never personally met or encountered Ken Ham, but I one time had to communicate with his organization, Answers in Genesis, about a book when I was working for a publisher. They were a bunch of haughty, unprofessional assholes. Like seriously some of the biggest assholes I've ever encountered in a work environment. I'd never heard of them before, and they've admittedly been on my shit list ever since. But it made me delve more into Ken Ham, and I am bewildered by his popularity. 

[Sew Sumi]

About 6 months ago, Independent Lens aired an excellent documentary on Ham and the creation of the Ark Encounter. He had a creationist "scientist" on staff who actually had a doctorate (and was a woman!). I wish I could remember the name of it; maybe it's available on PBS's website. It's definitely worth the 90 minutes to get inside of Ham's brain.