S02.E06: First Blood

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 5/23/2018 at 11:28 PM, numbnut said:

This ep was more my speed. A renegade handmaid. Nick making bold moves like a boss. Good stuff. I wish the CGI bombing was better. The running handmaidens should have been thrown by the blast.

I watched it over and over and over and over.  There are some handmaidens who are just CASUALLY WALKING AWAY FROM IT.  hHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.  I feel like this is some kind of CGI /direction mistake.  They are way too close to the blast to be casual about it; the blast is like TOUCHING them!

And, as others have mentioned, you see handmaidens on the top floor topple over :(

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 5/24/2018 at 9:11 PM, grublove said:

I hate that the scene was even included and it made me question whether I wanted to continue watching the show. The way the episode ended pulled me right back in... but I wont last much longer of they keep using the show as a vehicle to push gratuitous sex scenes onto actresses/viewers.

I totally get what you're saying .  Rape of a 15 year old  (Playing someone who is 15 years old on the show) (It IS rape based on today's laws, based on how we were raised, based on how many of us think and strongly believe).  I empathize with you.  I find your feelings on this very valid and I just want to say that I personally agree.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

 

The Rachel and Leah Centre looked so new and modern. It must have been a re-purposed university. Gilead can’t build anything new because they don’t have the work force or the resources and are too busy running their stupid theocracy. They can only maintain what they already have.

I forgot to mention this, but I did think it was the university where Emily used to work. Which made me think how horrified she’d be to learn it was turned into a red centre, but then, after hearing what her successor did to it, she’d cackle until she fell over.

[Trillian]

7 hours ago, bijoux said:

I forgot to mention this, but I did think it was the university where Emily used to work. Which made me think how horrified she’d be to learn it was turned into a red centre, but then, after hearing what her successor did to it, she’d cackle until she fell over.

It’s a good thought, but I don’t think so.  I watch this show through the eye of a Torontonian - double whammy: one who grew up in Hamilton, another filming location - and am frequently distracted from the story by recognizing or trying to figure out where a scene is shot.  In other words, I notice the buildings more than a non-local viewer.   Emily’s university is the University of Toronto Mississauga campus. I haven’t been able to confirm where the new Red Centre was shot, but it’s been driving me nuts how much it looked like the TD (Toronto-Dominion) office complex in downtown Toronto. Even if I’m wrong about the actual location, the two buildings look nothing like each other, so I’d be surprised if they made such a different building stand in for the university. 

On on another note, while I was initially annoyed by June’s seeming refusal to play the long game, it’s come to feel to me to be an entirely human reaction. Yeah, she knows it’s in her best interests to play besties with Serena, but that’s a hard game to play. It frankly reminds me of me in an old job I had:  I’d wake up telling myself that I’d go to work and smile and be a team player, but by lunch I’d be charging into my boss’s office with some grievance or other. Now the potential consequences for me were much less serious than for June in her situation, but it reminds me that play along to get along is much easier said than done, so I cut June some slack on that one. 

[greekmom]

One thing that bothered me about Serena’s flashbacks that I forgot to add in my original post.  Serena’s biggest mistake about the book was that she wanted to regress to a structure that treats women like chattel, gives them no rights at all which is really an oxymoron (? Lack of better word) for a woman who has a great deal of zeal and relishes on power.  What Serena should have done is advocate for tax breaks and governmental monetary incentives for women who are more fertile to have more children instead of the standard 1 or 2 or none at all. I realize there was an environmental issue but as an educated woman, suggesting the extreme measures that she did without LEADING by example (i.e. getting pregnant, having Fred speak for her at the rally, etc.).  At the point when she got shot, it looked like Fred was more of her “assistant” taking notes on her ideas and speeches as well as her husband.

[SourK]

I hope Fred's dead, mostly because it puts everyone in an interesting position if he is, but I think he'll survive.

Also, this is random, but for some reason I thought the Marthas were all called "Martha" instead of by their names. Now I'm realizing everybody calls Rita Rita, so maybe I imagined it?

ETA: I forgot. I'm not sure what to think about the scene where Serena's speaking on campus. When the scene starts, Fred makes a point of saying that what they most need right now is for their ideas to be part of mainstream conversation and legitimated. At the time, I thought, "Wow, if there was ever a case for why you should shout people down when they speak on campus, this is it" but when it escalated to somebody shooting her... I'm just not sure how to interpret it.

I'm also not sure I understand whether extremist beliefs slowly crept up on the culture without anyone knowing, or violently took over all of a sudden. This scene, and the scenes of protest in both seasons, seem to suggest that people noticed what was happening and pushed back against it. So why were the Serenas and Freds of the world so successful?

On 5/23/2018 at 11:21 AM, mamadrama said:

The inconsistency is getting to me, too, and some of the things just aren't making a lot of sense to me. Like when Nick said, "Maybe you should take her to a different kind of doctor." I mean, is Dude blind and deaf? Shouldn't he be kind of privy to the crazy-ass ways that the Handmaids (and women in general) get treated? ARE there any psychologists left? And what made him think they'd even CARE about June's mental health? That took me right out of the episode. I know that's kind of off topic and not what you said, but it was on my mind. :-)

I found that weird, too. And weird that he would even suggest it given that he seems (SEEMS) sympathetic to June's position. The way she's reacting psychologically is normal for the situation she's in, so, if they took her to a psychiatrist, the psychiatrist would be trying to convince her to be happier about her slavery, which seems like it's not a nice thing to do?

On 5/23/2018 at 8:27 PM, legxleg said:

The flashback where angry protestors were calling Serena Joy a Nazi rang a false note for me. As one of the earlier posters pointed out, Nazism is primarily associated with racial "purity" and racial genocide, and the show expects us to believe that Gilead is somehow race-blind.

Sometimes when people say "Nazi" they mean "fascist" and not "white supremacist" although the Nazis were obviously fascist white supremacists. However, I agree with what others have said about this show being weird about race and not mentioning racism.

On 5/23/2018 at 10:19 PM, rideashire said:

There's something that bugs me about this glory hole through the sheet sex business (something other than the obvious). Aren't the men just screwing themselves with that requirement? What man is going to say "I never want to see another naked woman in my life, not even my wife!" and then agree to this rule? I just find it odd that they'd go so far with married couples.

The men made the rules. They shot themselves in the foot with that one and I don't get why. Acceptable sacrifice for the greater goal, maybe? I don't know. Hmmm. Just seems odd. I'm over thinking this.

 

I don't get why either, but I guess, historically, this is a rule men have made for some reason at certain times. Thinking back to the incident where the other Commander got his hand cut off, it seems like some of these people are super into the religious aspect -- they might sincerely believe their own pleasure is wrong.

On 5/23/2018 at 10:26 PM, madpsych78 said:

I know everyone thinks he is a sick bastard, and he most definitely is. But there was nothing in it for him to give June a picture of Hannah, and even though she said she wanted him she was also concerned about the baby. Dude could have persisted but he backed down. And honestly, I think the ONLY reason he killed the wife of the guy who shot Serena was because Serena told him to "be a MAN!" He was doing what he thought it would take to show Serena that he could be what he wanted her to be.

 

I think that's an interesting point. It seems like Serena would prefer to live in a world where she and June can be friends while she breeds June and steals her baby, and it seems like Fred would prefer to live in a world where the Handmaids are actually attracted to him and find him charming -- which is maybe why he goes through this ritual of getting them to dress up and go on fake dates to the brothel with him. He's sort of looking for a "girlfriend experience," and doing little favours for June is a way of getting there. Maybe.

On 5/26/2018 at 11:33 AM, PeanutnRufus said:

OK, I want to know why Nick requested a reassignment. Does he want to get away from June because it's all too painful now? Will he have to take the child-bride with him? And he did seem like he was in a hurry to get to the cars - and away from the building. However, if he knew that Pryce was about to get offed, why bother asking for the reassignment? He's clearly part of the Resistance as he got June TF out of there before (right)?

I'm not sure Nick's part of the resistance. He definitely seems like an Eye, but I noticed that the earlier episodes this season have been written in such a way that Nick could be with Mayday or he could not be with Mayday. Like, the big question at the end of last season was, is he putting her in a van that's taking her to the government or is he putting her in a van that's taking her to freedom? The answer was: a van that's taking her to the government. He told her it would be okay because he had advance knowledge that she wouldn't be executed.

Then, when she's on the run, he reveals that it was really hard for him to track her down. No one else she talks to has heard of Nick or seems to know whether he's supposed to go with her when she escapes. She angrily asks him at one point why he handed her over to Mayday when he didn't know anything about them, and he doesn't really say anything in response.

You can read it either way, but I have a bad feeling that Nick's ideal scenario is to find a way to keep June with him in Gilead, not to help her escape.

On 5/27/2018 at 4:13 AM, snowbryneich said:

Given June's situation is because she was an adultress despite Luke divorcing his first wife and marrying her I think the show has shown that marriage is for life in Gilead, whether you like it or not. (If there was a way out it seems like the Commander would have ditched Serena given he seems to hate her.) 

Sometimes people make an exception for death, though. Being widowed is different from being divorced, so Serena might be allowed to marry again.

Edited May 28, 2018 by SourK

[snowbryneich]

20 minutes ago, SourK said:

Sometimes people make an exception for death, though. Being widowed is different from being divorced, so Serena might be allowed to marry again.

 

3

Oh absolutely sorry - that wasn't in response to Fred being dead - it was in response to a post wondering about Nick being able to get out of marriage with reassignment. I would think Gilead allows remarriage for men at least if something should happen to a Wife and probably for widows if there is a man of status available. I bet the commander whose Wife (Marisa Tomei) was declared unwoman had a new child bride even before the colonies finished her off as Unwoman is probably the same as dead. 

Thinking about it logistically, giving they are fighting wars and that in Gilead soldiers are only men, there are probably a lot of econowives who end up widowed and reassigned unless they can find some reason to classify them as handmaidens.

Edited May 28, 2018 by snowbryneich
misquote

[Baltimore Betty]

I wonder if Econo wife of the bread truck driver will ever run in to June at the market or at the next stoning circle.

[AngelaHunter]

13 hours ago, marinw said:

Serena hovering over June was awful. I wonder if she believes the whole kidnapping story. I kept waiting for to snap and try to strangle June again. And how dumb was it for Serena to order June to pick up something long and stabby?

The long shot, almost a tableau was great. I'm sure everyone watching felt June's strong desire to shove that knitting needle in Serena's neck but it was a good example of the way Serena thoroughly dominates June. It didn't matter how nicely Serena was treating June. She knows she's a slave and her master/mistress can choose to be good to her, pet and coddle her and then choke or slap or humiliate her when the mood strikes or in a minor fit of irritation. Serena is always right on the edge of violence or a meltdown and slaves can never let their guards down.

The statutory rape of the little girl was distasteful in the extreme. I really thought Nick, who seemingly had no interest in pedophilia, wouldn't be able to get it up for her (a hole cut in the sheet? Are the sheets used only with child brides? Actually if I were a Handmaid I'd welcome the sheet and let it cover my face too during my monthy rape so I wouldn't have to look at my rapist) but apparently he had no problem, even without seeing or touching the girl. Doesn't anyone in Gilead know that teenage pregnancy is not a good idea, not for mother or baby and that odds of successful pregnancy and birth would be better with someone a few years older?

The ending was so unexpected for me, I was kind of stunned. I really need to rewatch to take in the details more. This show airs on Sunday where I am, so sorry if I'm repeating anything already discussed at length.

[maystone]

12 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I totally get what you're saying .  Rape of a 15 year old  (Playing someone who is 15 years old on the show) (It IS rape based on today's laws, based on how we were raised, based on how many of us think and strongly believe).  I empathize with you.  I find your feelings on this very valid and I just want to say that I personally agree.

Unfortunately, child marriage is legal in all US states under certain conditions. (I recently read that DE is trying to ban it completely there. I hope they pass it.) A month or two ago there was a news push about this terrible practice, but like so many pressing issues, it got lost in the also terrible political news. Here's a link to an article that gives some background to legal child marriage in the USA.

I agree that it's very disturbing to watch; it's equally disturbing to me that it's also currently factual. I have no doubt at all that the practice would be continued under a theocratic political system like Gilead.

I think that Eden (Nick's child bride) spells big trouble ahead for the whole household. She's a true believer, and that's never good. I think June's got her number and will be able to manage her somewhat, but then Serena Joy is trying to weaponize her against June at the same time, so yeah . . . Eden is destined to be the proverbial snake in the garden. (Terrible joke, I know.)

When Nick told that Commander (Bryce?) that he wanted to be reassigned, that he knew things about Fred that the Commander didn't, were we supposed to take that as Bryce(?) being part of the Resistance like Nick is? If Nick is actually part of the Resistance? I'm pretty confused on that part of the story. He asked to be sent to the Front, though, didn't he? So it sounded to me like Nick wanted out of everything connected with the Waterfords: June, Eden, Fred - the whole megillah.

I was not expecting the suicide bombing at the end. When I saw Ofglen heading down the center aisle, I thought she was going to use a knife to kill herself or maybe a few of the Commanders, but a bomb? That's a game changer. I get why Mayday did it; I get why Ofglen agreed to be the bomber. Insurgents don't operate on a consensus basis, and bystanders are, as they say, collateral damage. I can't imagine that Gilead's response is going to be measured or at all well-thoughtout. Mayday used a pipe bomb; Gilead's gonna respond with a nuke (metaphorically).

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

Also, this is random, but for some reason I thought the Marthas were all called "Martha" instead of by their names. Now I'm realizing everybody calls Rita Rita, so maybe I imagined it?

 

“Martha” is used as their title role in society, so instead of saying a home has a maid or a housekeeper they say they have a Martha or Marthas.

It appears that the Marthas get to keep their names because they are not “disgraced women” like a handmaid. It’s total status bullshit that Gilead set up to keep “the classes” separate and unequal. 

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, maystone said:

 

When Nick told that Commander (Bryce?) that he wanted to be reassigned, that he knew things about Fred that the Commander didn't, were we supposed to take that as Bryce(?) being part of the Resistance like Nick is? If Nick is actually part of the Resistance? I'm pretty confused on that part of the story. He asked to be sent to the Front, though, didn't he? So it sounded to me like Nick wanted out of everything connected with the Waterfords: June, Eden, Fred - the whole megillah.

No, Bryce is the true deal and he put Nick as an Eye into the Waterford household to keep him abreast of the goings on there. He doesn’t trust Fred or his dedication to the Gilead ideals as far as he can throw him. Nick is definitely some part of the resistance to have been able to hook June up with the after-a-while-crocodile guy. I just imagine he is a very insignificant cog in it and has extremely little knowledge of their plans.

Also, I interpreted his desire to be sent to the front as wanting to get away from the whole household, from the Waterfords, from June, whom he can’t have and who he’s actually currently endangering, and definitely from Eden and the possibility of having to sleep with her again if she doesn’t turn up pregnant. The marriage would definitely stand, but I doubt they’d send her to the front with him. She’d likely be kept either where she is or some block like where the econofamily lived, knitting scarves or mending socks and being given coupons in exchange for Nick’s fighting on the front until he was killed or, who knows, maybe even managed to escape to the other side.

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

The long shot, almost a tableau was great. I'm sure everyone watching felt June's strong desire to shove that knitting needle in Serena's neck but it was a good example of the way Serena thoroughly dominates June. It didn't matter how nicely Serena was treating June. She knows she's a slave and her master/mistress can choose to be good to her, pet and coddle her and then choke or slap or humiliate her when the mood strikes or in a minor fit of irritation. Serena is always right on the edge of violence or a meltdown and slaves can never let their guards down.

The statutory rape of the little girl was distasteful in the extreme. I really thought Nick, who seemingly had no interest in pedophilia, wouldn't be able to get it up for her (a hole cut in the sheet? Are the sheets used only with child brides? Actually if I were a Handmaid I'd welcome the sheet and let it cover my face too during my monthy rape so I wouldn't have to look at my rapist) but apparently he had no problem, even without seeing or touching the girl. Doesn't anyone in Gilead know that teenage pregnancy is not a good idea, not for mother or baby and that odds of successful pregnancy and birth would be better with someone a few years older?

The ending was so unexpected for me, I was kind of stunned. I really need to rewatch to take in the details more. This show airs on Sunday where I am, so sorry if I'm repeating anything already discussed at length.

He would have been in humongous pile of shit if he hadn’t been able to get it up, since it would confirm Eden’s suspicions of him being a gender traitor. Even bigger than he was before sleeping with her. And then, hello, Wall. I don’t mean to be dismissive here, I don’t know how he got it up either, but then I didn’t really undesrtand how he did the first time with June either, with Serena hovering as a creepy sentinel three feet away. Frankly, I consider both of those acts rape of both the women and him, first time by Serena and now by Gilead. 

[chocolatine]

40 minutes ago, bijoux said:

He would have been in humongous pile of shit if he hadn’t been able to get it up, since it would confirm Eden’s suspicions of him being a gender traitor. Even bigger than he was before sleeping with her. And then, hello, Wall. I don’t mean to be dismissive here, I don’t know how he got it up either, but then I didn’t really undesrtand how he did the first time with June either, with Serena hovering as a creepy sentinel three feet away. Frankly, I consider both of those acts rape of both the women and him, first time by Serena and now by Gilead. 

I don't know about Nick, but some male spies apparently go through "training" where they have to sleep with progressively less attractive people, including the gender they aren't attracted to, so that they can train themselves to "perform" under any circumstances. 

[AnswersWanted]

There are a lot of ways to describe the horror of what happened between Nick and Eden, but pedophillia was not apart of it. Nick has in no way shown himself to be sexually interested or aroused by a prepubescent child, he is not a pedophile.

If he had been shown with a girl Hannah’s age then that term would/could apply. 

Eden is of physical maturity, mentally and emotionally she is a brainwashed little girl but she has reached puberty.

But frankly none of that even matters because Nick did not have a choice being with her anyway. He didn’t throw Eden in the back of a van and is holding her hostage. 

Nick was in a no win situation, June rightly warned him of the consequences if he did not perform his “husbandly duty”.

How could he? Was the alternative any better? He has June to think about, their child, dying on the wall because his baby bride threw a tantrum over his moral conflicts about bedding her? He did what he had to in the moment. Desperation is a powerful motivator.

[GraceK]

25 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

There are a lot of ways to describe the horror of what happened between Nick and Eden, but pedophillia was not apart of it. Nick has in no way shown himself to be sexually interested or aroused by a prepubescent child, he is not a pedophile.

If he had been shown with a girl Hannah’s age then that term would/could apply. 

Eden is of physical maturity, mentally and emotionally she is a brainwashed little girl but she has reached puberty.

But frankly none of that even matters because Nick did not have a choice being with her anyway. He didn’t throw Eden in the back of a van and is holding her hostage. 

Nick was in a no win situation, June rightly warned him of the consequences if he did not perform his “husbandly duty”.

How could he? Was the alternative any better? He has June to think about, their child, dying on the wall because his baby bride threw a tantrum over his moral conflicts about bedding her? He did what he had to in the moment. Desperation is a powerful motivator.

Agree 100%. I really hate this idea that somehow Nick is the bad guy here and only Eden is a victim. Eden may be a victim of this society, but she is also a dangerous timebomb that fully believes in this system and will righteously have Nick killed as a gender traitor If he doesn’t sleep with her or if he seems to be a rebel. She’s committed. Just because he happens to be a man doesn’t make him any less of a rape victim.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

No, Bryce is the true deal and he put Nick as an Eye into the Waterford household to keep him abreast of the goings on there. He doesn’t trust Fred or his dedication to the Gilead ideals as far as he can throw him. Nick is definitely some part of the resistance to have been able to hook June up with the after-a-while-crocodile guy. I just imagine he is a very insignificant cog in it and has extremely little knowledge of their plans.

Also, I interpreted his desire to be sent to the front as wanting to get away from the whole household, from the Waterfords, from June, whom he can’t have and who he’s actually currently endangering, and definitely from Eden and the possibility of having to sleep with her again if she doesn’t turn up pregnant. The marriage would definitely stand, but I doubt they’d send her to the front with him. She’d likely be kept either where she is or some block like where the econofamily lived, knitting scarves or mending socks and being given coupons in exchange for Nick’s fighting on the front until he was killed or, who knows, maybe even managed to escape to the other side.

Yes, I agree completely.  We now KNOW for sure Nick is both an Eye and also in Mayday.  Essentially he's a double agent, and now he has a fanatical child bride as well.  Talk about walking a dangerous tightrope.  His position is extremely dangerous.  Obviously getting away from his emotional connection with June and their unborn child would make his life slightly more bearable, and much less likely to get him killed.

I need to watch it again.  I remember Nick asking to be transferred, but somehow I missed him saying "to the front."  Are you positive he offered that?  Wow.  At the front (or one of the fronts, there are several) he would be a regular soldier, and since we know he doesn't believe in Gilead at all, would that mean he's planning to escape, and join the freedom fighters that are still resisting Gilead in the (former) USA?

Yeah, I agree, Nick at the front would put Eden somewhere like the econowives we've already seen.  The Waterfords would have a new driver and Eye that would get Nick's place above the garage.

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

He would have been in humongous pile of shit if he hadn’t been able to get it up, since it would confirm Eden’s suspicions of him being a gender traitor. Even bigger than he was before sleeping with her. And then, hello, Wall. I don’t mean to be dismissive here, I don’t know how he got it up either, but then I didn’t really undesrtand how he did the first time with June either, with Serena hovering as a creepy sentinel three feet away. Frankly, I consider both of those acts rape of both the women and him, first time by Serena and now by Gilead. 

I think the sheet probably helped Nick "get it up."  She was completely covered, so it would be easier to imagine her as someone else, maybe June, maybe some actress he had a crush on as a kid, before Gilead took over, or some Playboy model he fantasized about.  At the time, I remember thinking that Nick was lucky she was completely covered up, it would make things less disgusting and somewhat easier to complete that task.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Umbelina

[Helena Dax]

I would like to see Fred without some limbs and/or severe brain damage, forced to depend on the women he used to lord over. Can you imagine Serena taking care of him? Me neither. But I'm not just saying this out of spite; it would be interesting to explore what happens when the master loses his power.

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

He would have been in humongous pile of shit if he hadn’t been able to get it up, since it would confirm Eden’s suspicions of him being a gender traitor. Even bigger than he was before sleeping with her. And then, hello, Wall. I don’t mean to be dismissive here, I don’t know how he got it up either, but then I didn’t really undesrtand how he did the first time with June either, with Serena hovering as a creepy sentinel three feet away. Frankly, I consider both of those acts rape of both the women and him, first time by Serena and now by Gilead. 

Yeah, he isn't a rapist. In fact, she wanted to do it and he did it under coercion. 

[AngelaHunter]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think the sheet probably helped Nick "get it up."  She was completely covered, so it would be easier to imagine her as someone else, maybe June,

Yes. I was expected to see him fantasizing that this girl was June, in order for him to perform.

 

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

He would have been in humongous pile of shit if he hadn’t been able to get it up, since it would confirm Eden’s suspicions of him being a gender traitor.

I know, and that created tremendous pressure, a really tough scenario under which many men could not do what they need to do, which is why I surprised that he was able. Women can pretend to be aroused, but men mostly can't.

 

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I don't know about Nick, but some male spies apparently go through "training" where they have to sleep with progressively less attractive people, including the gender they aren't attracted to, so that they can train themselves to "perform" under any circumstances. 

Is that in the book? I read it so many years ago I can't remember most of it, other than the broad story, and recall no details at all. Certainly possible and that would explain a lot. Porn actors can perform at will and under most circumstances.

[Helena Dax]

That's from The Americans, if I'm not mistaken, heh.

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, AngelaHunter said:

Is that in the book? I read it so many years ago I can't remember most of it, other than the broad story, and recall no details at all. Certainly possible and that would explain a lot. Porn actors can perform at will and under most circumstances.

No, that was on another show about Soviet spies. I was just speculating that Nick may have had similar "training".

[mamadrama]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

I need to watch it again.  I remember Nick asking to be transferred, but somehow I missed him saying "to the front."  Are you positive he offered that? 

Yes, he actually used those exact words "to the front." It was a startling moment. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

That's from The Americans, if I'm not mistaken, heh.

Yes, and Red Sparrow novels and movie, and I'm pretty sure it was also in The Charm School book.

Nick wouldn't have any of that training, but aside from masturbation, he hasn't had sex in a long time, which might help as well.  Mainly though?  I think having that sheet there completely covering her except for her head?  Would make things much easier for Nick, much easier to imagine her to be someone else, at least long enough (what was that 60 seconds?) to complete the act or fake his orgasm.  Men can fake it too, especially with someone who has never had sex, and only has her mothers description of sex to go on.

[BellyLaughter]

Regarding the Martha title .... it’s definitely a religious based choice to call housekeepers Martha’s....

 

“Aramaic Meaning: The name Martha is an Aramaic baby name. In Aramaic the meaning of the name Martha is: Lady. In the Bible, Martha was the sister of Lazarus and Mary of Bethany and known for her obsession with housework”

Edited May 29, 2018 by BellyLaughter

[madpsych78]

6 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Yeah, he isn't a rapist. In fact, she wanted to do it and he did it under coercion. 

Man, this is really a fascinating discussion about the definition of rape. Obviously, men can be raped, including by women, and I do believe that in this context Nick was forced to engage in intercourse to save face.  She didn't chain him down but he definitely did not want to do it. Was Nick raped because he didn't want to do it?

But add to that that the partner in question is essentially an adolescent girl who is probably about half Nick's age. She wanted to do it for procreation purposes. There are statutory rape issues (at least in our eyes) even if she is physically mature (i.e., past puberty) and even if Gilead does not view this as statutory rape since she is legally married and fulfilling her duty. Was she raped because she wanted to do it but was too young to make that decision? 

[bijoux]

As I said before, I believe they were both raped. Nick because he was coerced into it at the threat to his life, as well as potential threat to June and the baby, and Eden because she is to brainwashed to be able to give informed consent.

[dleighg]

One can be raped by another person (the one you are engaging in sex with). You can also be raped by an external force (say a brother forced to have sex with his sister under the force of soldiers with machine guns. It happens). Here the rapist is this system, not either of the participants. IMHO.

[DuckyinKy]

On 5/25/2018 at 2:52 AM, Lemons said:

That wasn’t even a sex scene and it wasn’t gratuitous in the least.  Nick had a huge problem he had to deal with and he dealt with it.  Excluding scenes like that is exactly something like a Gildead society would do.  

And finally, we saw that men don't have choices either, which was nice to see. 

[AnswersWanted]

The word “consent” has been totally removed from Gilead society. 

Nick did not consent to being married off, no one asked his opinion, it was not required. He was merely given orders just like any good soldier.

He was supposedly “gifted” a wife because someone in control of him decided he needed one and he got no say in who that was or even how old she was. 

 The very first time he even knew Eden existed was when she came before him with her face shroud in a cloth, a complete stranger, a young girl that would now be a forever, lifetime responsibility for him, and never once was there an option for him to say “no” or to refuse her. It would’ve meant certain death or perhaps worse. 

And as for Eden, she has no point of reference to even begin to understand what consent is or what it once meant. 

 Freedom from is what she knows, all she knows: freedom from choice, freedom from having control over her own body.

She’s been programmed to not ask questions, told how to live a holy, goodly life, how to be a godly wife.

She is incapable, at least for now, of comprehending even the basic idea of “personhood”.  

She is a part of Gilead, she abides by its’ guidelines, she conforms to its’ standards, she obeys its’ laws without question, that is all. 

 Consent no longer exists in this world, only submission does.

They have replaced the idea and the concept of consent with submit, that is all anyone can do now in Gilead.

Everyone must submit now, even those at the very top just so that they can keep up appearances.

They are all at the mercy of another power making them do something regardless if they agree, in spite of their own feelings, their opinions, none of that matters anymore. 

[secnarf]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:57 PM, legxleg said:

Even though Nazis did plenty of terrible things to women (I think I once read that Nazis basically forced Scandinavian women into sexual slavery because they would produce Aryan babies, which is very Handmaid's Tale), I still think that the primary goal was a white supremacist one - women dedicate themselves to having babies for the good of the race, etc. And disassociating racism from Nazism to concentrate on the misogynistic part feels off to me, in the same way that the society of Gilead and its colorblind-but-misogynistic dystopia feels off to me. But I appreciate your point - and it's certainly true that screaming protestors are usually not the most nuanced thinkers. Thanks for the thoughtful responses :-)

Didn't Serena Joy use those exact words - that women needed to dedicate themselves to having babies for the good of the human race, or am I making that up?

On 5/23/2018 at 8:57 PM, DrSpaceman said:

The 15 year old wife of Nick and her actions make me think there must be some of the general population outside the power hierarchy that not only just tolerate the actions of Gilead but actively support it and think their ideas are great.  Her mom seems to have taught her to play the part of the faithful wife and that it is her ultimate duty to do so

I wonder how much Eden's mother believes the actions/values/ideals of Gilead vs how much she was just trying to protect Eden from them by teaching her how to 'get along'.

On 5/24/2018 at 5:02 PM, freebie said:

Which is why I couldn't help but wonder if Nick was taking advantage of Eden's inexperience and not actually penetrating her. Eden did tell Serena that her mother explained what to expect, but who knows how detailed that explanation was?

I wondered this as well, especially given how perfunctory the whole thing was and that she didn't seem to have much of a reaction. I don't know that he would have taken the risk, though.

On 5/28/2018 at 12:13 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I totally get what you're saying .  Rape of a 15 year old  (Playing someone who is 15 years old on the show) (It IS rape based on today's laws, based on how we were raised, based on how many of us think and strongly believe).  I empathize with you.  I find your feelings on this very valid and I just want to say that I personally agree.

"Based on how we were raised" - not sure what this means. I grew up with the legal age of consent at 12. That's how I was raised. I have less of an issue with Eden's actual age, and more with how she is mentally/emotionally quite young and seems incapable of giving informed consent, rather has been brainwashed into it. There is also quite a difference in both age and maturity between Eden and Nick that I am not comfortable with.

[TarotQueen]

I think besides opening the very interesting discussion about consent up, that Eden is also probably intended as something like a time marker to show us that nearly one generation has already been brainwashed by the Gileadean society at this point.  

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

I think besides opening the very interesting discussion about consent up, that Eden is also probably intended as something like a time marker to show us that nearly one generation has already been brainwashed by the Gileadean society at this point.  

I don’t think Eden has been brainwashed by “official” Gilead society- which isn’t even 5yrs old at this point. I think she is to there to demonstrate the existence of groups that may have been perceived to be “fringe” had been working behind the scenes for years (even decades) to bring about what is now Gilead. Eden’s parents are probably low ranking (or middle ranking) members of the groups that envisioned Gilead and wanted it to succeed, but Hannah was born before Gilead was official (or the overt govt take over began) and she’s 7ish?

On 5/29/2018 at 8:58 AM, AnswersWanted said:

The word “consent” has been totally removed from Gilead society. 

Nick did not consent to being married off, no one asked his opinion, it was not required. He was merely given orders just like any good soldier.

He was supposedly “gifted” a wife because someone in control of him decided he needed one and he got no say in who that was or even how old she was. 

 The very first time he even knew Eden existed was when she came before him with her face shroud in a cloth, a complete stranger, a young girl that would now be a forever, lifetime responsibility for him, and never once was there an option for him to say “no” or to refuse her. It would’ve meant certain death or perhaps worse. 

And as for Eden, she has no point of reference to even begin to understand what consent is or what it once meant. 

 Freedom from is what she knows, all she knows: freedom from choice, freedom from having control over her own body.

She’s been programmed to not ask questions, told how to live a holy, goodly life, how to be a godly wife.

She is incapable, at least for now, of comprehending even the basic idea of “personhood”.  

She is a part of Gilead, she abides by its’ guidelines, she conforms to its’ standards, she obeys its’ laws without question, that is all. 

 Consent no longer exists in this world, only submission does.

They have replaced the idea and the concept of consent with submit, that is all anyone can do now in Gilead.

Everyone must submit now, even those at the very top just so that they can keep up appearances.

They are all at the mercy of another power making them do something regardless if they agree, in spite of their own feelings, their opinions, none of that matters anymore. 

Exactly- very well spoken. 

Consent in this world only exists for men like the Commander. Had Nick NOT engaged with intercourse with Eden being executed on the wall as a gender traitor was a real possibility. Reminds me of enslaved men being forced to have intercourse with enslaved women (to make more slaves) or whomever their master determined for their own voyueristic pleasure. Those men certainly didn’t consent. 

The Eden/Nick marriage shows just how the Gilieadian ideals have stripped people of free will and turned marriage (something they claim is valuable and sacred) into a performance coerced at knife point. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Catfi9ht]

On 5/24/2018 at 10:07 PM, greekmom said:

Re: the sex sheet with the hole.  I have read two books that make reference to a sheet with a hole.  One was about Orthodox Jews ( I don't remember the title).  The second one was Like Water for Chocolate.  It made mention how the one character married his beloved's sister and used the sheet with the hole to have sex with her.  So real or myth, it's been referenced before in literature. 

This was bugging me too because I knew I had seen it somewhere. A Price Above Rubies, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Price_Above_Rubies, includes a sex scene with a sheet. It looks like it's a Hollywood fabrication that has made it's way to mainstream myth.

[Medicine Crow]

Help me people!!  I keep thinking about a scene where a man & a woman were on their knees (the man's eyeball was injured) & "their captor" shot the wife.  I don't know what happened to the man.  This is the only show I watch with that kind of action, but I can't remember specifically when that happened.  Anyone???

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, Medicine Crow said:

Help me people!!  I keep thinking about a scene where a man & a woman were on their knees (the man's eyeball was injured) & "their captor" shot the wife.  I don't know what happened to the man.  This is the only show I watch with that kind of action, but I can't remember specifically when that happened.  Anyone???

Fred located the man that shot Serena- captured him and his wife. He shot the wife first so that the shooter could watch. 

[Umbelina]

More than 200,000 children married in US over the last 15 years

Quote

“That number was so much higher than I had thought it would be,” she told Frontline. “Then, the fact that the children were as young as 13 and the fact that it was mostly girls married to adult men.”

Probably one of the more realistic stories they've told from the book.  It happens here all the time, which honestly didn't come to my attention until the whole pedophile thing came out about that politician back east, and watching people, especially Christian pastors defend him, and say the best brides were the young ones because you could train them up.

This article includes children as young as 10 being married here in the USA. 

Perhaps we need to be more outraged at the reality of this going on right now in the USA than they show depicting it in Gilead?

Eden is telling a valuable story here, and the sad thing to me is?  It's not just about Gilead.  It's about US.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[Medicine Crow]

22 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Fred located the man that shot Serena- captured him and his wife. He shot the wife first so that the shooter could watch. 

Got it!!!  Thank you, thank you, thank you.  NOW I can forget about it!!!

[greekmom]

The timeline confuses me.  How old was Eden when Gilead came into being?  I can't believe she is such a believer in the system that she doesn't remember life before and want life before.

[Umbelina]

We aren't sure of the timeline.  Also, before they actually took over the government, they were convincing people they were right, so I'm pretty sure Serena Joy and others had followers for several years.

[AnswersWanted]

Eden reminds me of someone who could be a part of a number of modern day religious groups, they are zealots, very fanatic about their beliefs, they try to live a life that is as close to biblical teachings as possible.

I don’t think that she had to grow up under Gilead to know how this type of system works, more than likely her family raised her to be a good little girl under god. 

The founders of Gilead are just your typical snake oil salesmen, they didn’t invent the wheel by using religion to takeover, they just went further than most. 

[legxleg]

I think Eden is currently 15, so even if Gilead has only been in power for a couple of years, if she was home-schooled and raised in a very religious community then I can believe that she would have been kept close enough to her home that not only is she raised in this belief structure, she doesn't really have a memory of the world that June lived in. Like, maybe her entire memory of it is something like looking out the car window while her parents talk about how bad those people are and how she needs to stay away from them because they want to hurt her or pray for them because they are going to hell. I can even see her thinking Gilead is a utopia because now the scary secular world is gone. And this post is rapidly devolving into some kind of Eden fanfic so I need to stop, lol. But I do think she's a fascinating character.

Edited June 1, 2018 by legxleg

[Token]

On ‎2018‎-‎05‎-‎30 at 4:16 PM, Umbelina said:

More than 200,000 children married in US over the last 15 years

Probably one of the more realistic stories they've told from the book.  It happens here all the time, which honestly didn't come to my attention until the whole pedophile thing came out about that politician back east, and watching people, especially Christian pastors defend him, and say the best brides were the young ones because you could train them up.

This article includes children as young as 10 being married here in the USA. 

Perhaps we need to be more outraged at the reality of this going on right now in the USA than they show depicting it in Gilead?

Eden is telling a valuable story here, and the sad thing to me is?  It's not just about Gilead.  It's about US.

Thank you!  Reading about people being offended by that incredibly short sex scene between Eden and Nick has been driving me bonkers!  Considering the source material for the show, the show could have been way more gratuitous than they were.  And considering what is happening in the world today, including here in the Western world, with child brides, I think there are way more offensive things to get offended about.  Getting so wound up about a short scene in a TV show is ridiculous, when people then ignore the reality of children living in their own towns and cities.

I also find it fascinating that so many people are happy about Ofglenn and her suicide bombing.  Don't get me wrong, I was cheering along with the rest of you.  But there are many suicide bombings in the world, that we all are quick to condemn.  Yet those people are just as certain in their beliefs and justifications as Ofglenn was in hers.  Yet one we cheer, and others we condemn as terrorists.  It's a funny thing, perspective.

[Ceindreadh]

9 hours ago, Token said:

Thank you!  Reading about people being offended by that incredibly short sex scene between Eden and Nick has been driving me bonkers!  Considering the source material for the show, the show could have been way more gratuitous than they were.  And considering what is happening in the world today, including here in the Western world, with child brides, I think there are way more offensive things to get offended about.  Getting so wound up about a short scene in a TV show is ridiculous, when people then ignore the reality of children living in their own towns and cities.

I also find it fascinating that so many people are happy about Ofglenn and her suicide bombing.  Don't get me wrong, I was cheering along with the rest of you.  But there are many suicide bombings in the world, that we all are quick to condemn.  Yet those people are just as certain in their beliefs and justifications as Ofglenn was in hers.  Yet one we cheer, and others we condemn as terrorists.  It's a funny thing, perspective.

We’re not cheering her because she was a suicide bomber, we (or at least me) are cheering because a rape victim was able to punish a roomful of rapists. 

Every man in that room was a rapist. Every man in that room was complicit in the abduction and rape of multiple women. 

The only part of it I condemn is the part where other handmaids were caught in the blast as well. 

[islandgal140]

On 6/2/2018 at 8:33 PM, Token said:

I also find it fascinating that so many people are happy about Ofglenn and her suicide bombing.  Don't get me wrong, I was cheering along with the rest of you.  But there are many suicide bombings in the world, that we all are quick to condemn.  Yet those people are just as certain in their beliefs and justifications as Ofglenn was in hers.  Yet one we cheer, and others we condemn as terrorists.  It's a funny thing, perspective.

Never has the saying "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" been more apropos. 

[mamadrama]

On 6/1/2018 at 8:10 AM, legxleg said:

I think Eden is currently 15, so even if Gilead has only been in power for a couple of years, if she was home-schooled and raised in a very religious community then I can believe that she would have been kept close enough to her home that not only is she raised in this belief structure, she doesn't really have a memory of the world that June lived in. Like, maybe her entire memory of it is something like looking out the car window while her parents talk about how bad those people are and how she needs to stay away from them because they want to hurt her or pray for them because they are going to hell. I can even see her thinking Gilead is a utopia because now the scary secular world is gone. And this post is rapidly devolving into some kind of Eden fanfic so I need to stop, lol. But I do think she's a fascinating character.

I have friends who were born at home. There are 6 children and they have never been to a doctor, were homeschooled with no attempts at socialization (not a dig at homeschooling, I do it myself with my son, but most people who do it actually pay attention to the "schooling" part of the word), never seen a movie, don't have running water or electricity, and only leave the "farm" a few times a year. (The story of how we met and why their father allows me to be a friend to the girls and even visit is a long story.) I taught the oldest girl, age 30 now, how to read. I've known the family for more than 20 years. They have VERY little to do with the outside world. The kids have been taught to fear "outsiders"-they truly believe that everyone is out to get them and the parents have taught the children to be paranoid and suspicious of everyone. They are friends with other families who subscribe to various levels of this ideology. I could see Eden having come from a group like this. (The main difference with my friends is that there's no religion involved.)

 

Just in case it comes up, CPS was called in on them many times over the years, which only added to their paranoia. That the children were allowed to remain is something I still see as a great injustice. I guess since there wasn't any physical or sexual abuse present, authorities figured they were low on the list of calamities. I guess, considering what goes on in my part of the state, the fact that the children were actually being fed and housed kept them out of the hot water. 

[Clanstarling]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:06 AM, chick binewski said:

It does make sense Nick would be in on it. But I was kind of flummoxed as to why Pryce would listen to Nick, other than the fact he's already got his suspicions about Waterford.

IIRC, Pryce is the one who installed Nick in the Waterford household.

 

On 5/23/2018 at 7:07 PM, GraceK said:

I just wish someone else was playing June. Elizabeth Moss I just don’t like at all. This may be a unpopular opinion on these boards but for me personally she plays June with this smirking, bitchy look on her face that makes it really hard for me to sympathize with her. Ugh I know people are gonna get real mad at me for saying it, but I don’t know what it is!!!! She’s the main character but there is just something about her that I just don’t like. She does look like she’s constantly devious and planning something and it’s annoying.

Well, my take is that she is constantly devious and planning something. At least in the Gilead days. So it seems like her expressions are just right to me.

On 5/24/2018 at 4:18 PM, Umbelina said:

It was seconds.  Why wouldn't they try to get away from her?  That's what I would have done.

I would too - but then a) I always sit on the aisle just for emergencies like this (semi-serious, not bombing, but I like to be able to get out quickly)  because if you're crammed in, the most you can do is stumble over each other and b) if I saw a child running up the aisle, I wouldn't think "danger" - and these men think of the Handmaids in those kind of non-threatening terms.

On 5/26/2018 at 8:58 PM, millennium said:

I can't stand Elizabeth Moss.  Hated her on Mad Men.   Never understood what all the fuss was about.  Now she's ruined this series for me too.   I can't muster even an ounce of sympathy for June because Elizabeth Moss plays her smug and smirky, like her poop doesn't smell.   Her range as an actress seems painfully limited.   I keep hoping someone will kill June and the series can move on to other characters.   I know, not likely, but I can dream.

I was going to say, then why bother to watch. But I remembered that I watched 11.22.63 even though I hate James Franco in everything he does. And yeah, he kind of ruined the series for me too. So while I don't have the same opinion, I do understand the feeling.

On 5/27/2018 at 9:23 PM, bijoux said:

I forgot to mention this, but I did think it was the university where Emily used to work. Which made me think how horrified she’d be to learn it was turned into a red centre, but then, after hearing what her successor did to it, she’d cackle until she fell over.

I thought so too - especially that overhead shot looking down into the ....lobby?

On 5/28/2018 at 9:22 PM, madpsych78 said:

Man, this is really a fascinating discussion about the definition of rape. Obviously, men can be raped, including by women, and I do believe that in this context Nick was forced to engage in intercourse to save face.  She didn't chain him down but he definitely did not want to do it. Was Nick raped because he didn't want to do it?

But add to that that the partner in question is essentially an adolescent girl who is probably about half Nick's age. She wanted to do it for procreation purposes. There are statutory rape issues (at least in our eyes) even if she is physically mature (i.e., past puberty) and even if Gilead does not view this as statutory rape since she is legally married and fulfilling her duty. Was she raped because she wanted to do it but was too young to make that decision? 

I'm not going to get into the rape discussion, because ya'll have covered it pretty thoroughly and better than I would have. Just making a niggly point - Nick isn't saving face, he's saving his life. If she reports him as a gender traitor, he's likely to be hung from that wall.

On 5/29/2018 at 8:18 PM, secnarf said:

Didn't Serena Joy use those exact words - that women needed to dedicate themselves to having babies for the good of the human race, or am I making that up?

You are not making it up. The core (or at least opening) of what she was saying was that due to the alarmingly low birth rates, women should embrace their biological imperative to save the human race.

[nodorothyparker]

On 5/30/2018 at 10:46 PM, AnswersWanted said:

Eden reminds me of someone who could be a part of a number of modern day religious groups, they are zealots, very fanatic about their beliefs, they try to live a life that is as close to biblical teachings as possible.

I don’t think that she had to grow up under Gilead to know how this type of system works, more than likely her family raised her to be a good little girl under god. 

The founders of Gilead are just your typical snake oil salesmen, they didn’t invent the wheel by using religion to takeover, they just went further than most. 

America has a long history of being highly accommodating of religious separatists.  In my own part of the country, we watch the Amish and Mennonites come and go and think aren't they quaint with their Handmaid-ish bonnets and emphasis on shunning everything that isn't devoted to home and hearth while buying a lot of our produce and handicrafts from them.  The Econowives with their drab unassuming modesty wouldn't look at all out of place among them.  Sure, our government raids a compound every dozen or years or so when some form of heinous abuse is suspected (Remember the FLDS in Texas?), but we almost always end up giving everybody back after a lot of screeching in the press about religious freedom and telling them to go on their way.  And every time it happens they close ranks even further against the outside world.   June's former life with all the modern amenities might as well be the moon to many of the kids from these communities, none of whom would have set foot in a public school or have any frame of reference for it.  As a public we're used to tolerating a whole lot of stuff that may look odd or damaging to us who are a part of modern American society because "religion."  We may tut tut about it or shake our heads about some of their more odious or backwards views when they're paraded on reality TV or spewed by politicians, but that's probably about the most thought most of us give it. 

That's why I have no trouble believing that pockets of the belief system that became Gilead probably existed around the country for years before it got to this point.  If you look at what some what some of our separatists believe, it's not that far off now.  Eden coming from that isn't a stretch for me.

[mamadrama]

On 6/10/2018 at 11:26 AM, nodorothyparker said:

America has a long history of being highly accommodating of religious separatists.  In my own part of the country, we watch the Amish and Mennonites come and go and think aren't they quaint with their Handmaid-ish bonnets and emphasis on shunning everything that isn't devoted to home and hearth while buying a lot of our produce and handicrafts from them.  The Econowives with their drab unassuming modesty wouldn't look at all out of place among them.  Sure, our government raids a compound every dozen or years or so when some form of heinous abuse is suspected (Remember the FLDS in Texas?), but we almost always end up giving everybody back after a lot of screeching in the press about religious freedom and telling them to go on their way.  And every time it happens they close ranks even further against the outside world.   June's former life with all the modern amenities might as well be the moon to many of the kids from these communities, none of whom would have set foot in a public school or have any frame of reference for it.  As a public we're used to tolerating a whole lot of stuff that may look odd or damaging to us who are a part of modern American society because "religion."  We may tut tut about it or shake our heads about some of their more odious or backwards views when they're paraded on reality TV or spewed by politicians, but that's probably about the most thought most of us give it. 

That's why I have no trouble believing that pockets of the belief system that became Gilead probably existed around the country for years before it got to this point.  If you look at what some what some of our separatists believe, it's not that far off now.  Eden coming from that isn't a stretch for me.

Yep, your area sounds a lot like mine. We have strange groups living in various forms of modernization all over my state, as well we religious and non-religious cults and the Amish and Mennonites (whom we also love and think of as "quaint"). Some of these folks would have easily fallen right into GIlead's rules. 

[jennblevins]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Some of these folks would have easily fallen right into GIlead's rules. 

 I imagine them, much like Serena Joy, being unpleasantly surprised to find out that they don’t get an exemption from specific rules they don’t agree with, though ... 

[mamadrama]

1 minute ago, jennblevins said:

 I imagine them, much like Serena Joy, being unpleasantly surprised to find out that they don’t get an exemption from specific rules they don’t agree with, though ... 

That does seem to be what happens.