S08.E14: Still Gotta Mean Something

[mightysparrow]

I sneaked a peek last night and it only confirmed that I should stop watching.  Maybe I was having a stroke too but none of that shit made any fucking sense at all.

Nice that the show let Michonne mention Andrea.  Too bad they didn't allow her to mention her own fucking child but that's probably because Rick wouldn't know who she was talking about.  I'll bet good money that Rick has no idea that Michonne had a child or even a life before she started fucking him.  Her function is to keep Rick Grimes going.

I had no idea what was going on between Morgan and Carol.  He kept on saying that she was strong while she weakly tried to get him to do...something?  I don't know what.  Is Henry dead?  Do we know?

When Rick and Morgan joined up, that was a whole lot of crazy.

Why does this fucking show keep trying to make Jadis happen?  It makes less sense than all the time and energy spent on Tara!  Putting Jadis and Negan together was watching two of the most loathsome and UNNECESSARY characters on television.  When Negan said, 'I swear on my sac', I turned off the tv.   Someone got paid for that line?!?!?!?!  I hope JDM got paid extra because that was the moment his career as an actor died.  The Screen Actor's Guild should post that clip on it's website as a prime example of 'career suicide'.

[AngelaHunter]

1 minute ago, mightysparrow said:

Is Henry dead?  Do we know?

I was actually awake to see NewCarl... I mean Henry's rescue by Carol. He was in the woods in a niche in a tree trunk with a bunch of walkers trying to get at him. In spite of the fact there was only a tree root or two between him and the walkers, he was rescued with nary even a scratch. Hugging, crying and pithy words followed. Carol brought the little brat back to Hilltop. Tearful reunions with Zeke and then Morgan ensued.

4 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

Putting Jadis and Negan together was watching two of the most loathsome and UNNECESSARY characters on television.

I know this was supposed to be a wrenching and touching segment, but to me it was just far-out and messed up I did enjoy it for the sheer what-the-fuckery.

5 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

When Negan said, 'I swear on my sac', I turned off the tv.

But... he only mentioned his genitals twice in this ep!

6 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I had no idea what was going on between Morgan and Carol.

I don't know either. When I hear sad, tinkly music, see Carol's tears and see those two together, I go deaf.

 

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I was thinking that it was the woman that Dwight is so afraid of, the one that is missing.  The one that knows that Dwight had joined team Rick.  I am terrible with names.

Who can remember the names in a cast of thousands, with so many red shirts falling like flies? I not only don't know her name, but have no idea who you mean at all.

[ljenkins782]

Quote

 

Quote

I was thinking that it was the woman that Dwight is so afraid of, the one that is missing.  The one that knows that Dwight had joined team Rick.  I am terrible with names.

Who can remember the names in a cast of thousands, with so many red shirts falling like flies? I not only don't know her name, but have no idea who you mean at all.

 

I don't know her name either (maybe Laura? Sarah?) but she was with the Saviors when they ambushed a group of...someone (maybe Daryl and co. or Maggie and co.) and rather than shoot at them, Dwight turned on the Saviors and killed them, but this girl got away. So she knows Dwight is a traitor to the Saviors. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by ljenkins782

[oakville]

2 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

The title had to have been an April Fool's prank. I remember in "Abe Screams at a Dangling Zombie for Ten Minutes, Then Finds a Cigar and Dresses Up," some of the live comments were asking what weird experimental performance art film had replaced our show. But today that episode would blend right in with all the others.

I think the helicopter is basically the red machete of vehicles. Remember, this is a world where cars and gas run forever, so why not helicopters? If we assume that people with paramilitary knowledge tended to last longer after the ZA, it's not hard to imagine a new owner finding it every few months, taking it for a test ride, landing to refuel, getting killed, and then another new owner stumbling upon it. We'll never find out what it means, because it means nothing. There's a new person flying it every single time.

Who did Negan give a ride to? I hope it's somebody who can make this show better. Did the Harlem Globetrotters survive the apocalypse?

There were helicopter pilots with a helicopter in the last season of Fear the Walking Dead. It could be the link.

[nodorothyparker]

12 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

I don't know her name either (maybe Laura? Sarah?) but she was with the Saviors when they ambushed a group of...someone (maybe Daryl and co. or Maggie and co.) and rather than shoot at them, Dwight turned on the Saviors and killed them, but this girl got away. So she knows Dwight is a traitor to the Saviors. 

Lots of speculation elsewhere seem fairly certain it must be Laura, Eugene's original Savior tour guide with the bar code neck tattoo.  Which feels like the worst big reveal ever as so many of us clearly can't even remember her.  But yeah, her reappearance would blow Dwight's cover in returning to the Saviors, which we were told during the magical swamp escape was possible only because no one had heard from or seen her since the attack on Alexandria.

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, heisenberg said:

I do so love David Bowie.

 

47 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

But... he only mentioned his genitals twice in this ep!

I’m SO sorry to hear Negan’s feeling under the weather.  

Where should we bring the casseroles?  

Bless his heart.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

I sneaked a peek last night and it only confirmed that I should stop watching.  Maybe I was having a stroke too but none of that shit made any fucking sense at all.

Nice that the show let Michonne mention Andrea.  Too bad they didn't allow her to mention her own fucking child but that's probably because Rick wouldn't know who she was talking about.  I'll bet good money that Rick has no idea that Michonne had a child or even a life before she started fucking him.  Her function is to keep Rick Grimes going.

I had no idea what was going on between Morgan and Carol.  He kept on saying that she was strong while she weakly tried to get him to do...something?  I don't know what.  Is Henry dead?  Do we know?

When Rick and Morgan joined up, that was a whole lot of crazy.

Why does this fucking show keep trying to make Jadis happen?  It makes less sense than all the time and energy spent on Tara!  Putting Jadis and Negan together was watching two of the most loathsome and UNNECESSARY characters on television.  When Negan said, 'I swear on my sac', I turned off the tv.   Someone got paid for that line?!?!?!?!  I hope JDM got paid extra because that was the moment his career as an actor died.  The Screen Actor's Guild should post that clip on it's website as a prime example of 'career suicide'.

I'm sure Rick knows she lost a child.  I think Michonne said something like, "When it happened to me" (referring to losing her son) before telling him about Andrea.  

[Mu Shu]

Are we supposed to believe that Jadis has an immaculate lair that she retreats to daily with her rolling cart of whatever, or that Jadis’ mind is a Scandesign tiny home?

Both options suck.

Maybe the person in the car is Gregory, and it’s a red herring to make us think it’s BarCodeBitch? 

Both options suck.

[Token]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I do love that everyone at this point has just accepted that Morgan is crazy and it isn't even that big of a deal anymore.  Even when he almost attacked Rick in the woods, Rick's reaction was basically "Dude, it's me.  Chill the fuck out, buddy."  As long as he keeps his killing to just walkers and Saviors only, he's good in their book!

Granted, this episode certainly gave Morgan some competition as Rick delivered the biggest April Fools prank ever on the former prisoners!  Yeah, there was no way he was going to let any of them live.  Of course, in typical Walking Dead fashion, the walkers seem to practically ignore him and Morgan and went straight for the Saviors.  It's good to have plot armor!

Speaking of which, Negan continues to somehow keep chugging along as even freaking Jadis isn't able to finish the job.  You are so lame, Jadis!  But I guess it will be kind of fun to watch Simon squirm once he finds out Negan isn't actually dead.

Did they say what happened to Gregory?  Was he the mysterious person Negan picked up at the end?

In all seriousness, the Rick/Morgan interactions were good.  It reminded me of the good old days!

Interesting.... I hadn't thought of Gregory.  I assumed it was the chick who knows that Dwight is a double agent.  Does Gregory know about Dwight?  I'd assumed he was totally screwed now, but maybe not.

[nodorothyparker]

53 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm sure Rick knows she lost a child.  I think Michonne said something like, "When it happened to me" (referring to losing her son) before telling him about Andrea. 

That's how I read it too as Rick didn't seem the slightest bit surprised or confused when she said it.  We got to be excited for about 1.5 seconds that Michonne was finally going to get to use her long ignored backstory to remind Rick that other people like her have lost children too and that he'd been relatively lucky in this ZA to keep as much of his family together for as long as he did in comparison.  But then they immediately defaulted back to her propping Rick some more and so much for that.

Of all the many many reasons to still be pissed about the decision to kill off Carl, the way the show has squandered its own history on this subject ranks right up there.  On the main canvas, Carol, Michonne, and Morgan have all lost children to monsters and have each struggled to deal with it in their own way to be able to go on.  But this is the first mention Michonne has been allowed to make of it and then only in the very briefest way.  It was certainly fueling Morgan's part in the drama over looking for Henry but Rick never saw that, just his ongoing instability.  The most egregious of the three for me may be his complete lack of interaction with Carol.  They have such a long and convoluted history over Rick's role in losing Sophia and then having to put her down and it made for a great episode waaay back in season 4 in Indifference when these characters still talked to each other, but they haven't done more than pass each other on the steps while each dealing with their own separate storylines. 

[A-Lo]

Why does Michonne's wig look so different this season?  It looks like either she shrunk or it grew.  It's very distracting and all I can think about when she's onscreen.  Yep...that's all I got from last night's episode.

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

That's how I read it too as Rick didn't seem the slightest bit surprised or confused when she said it.  We got to be excited for about 1.5 seconds that Michonne was finally going to get to use her long squandered backstory to remind Rick that other people like her have lost children too and that he'd been relatively lucky in this ZA to keep as much of his family together for as long as he did in comparison.  But then they immediately defaulted back to her propping Rick some more and so much for that.

Of all the many many reasons to still be pissed about the decision to kill off Carl, the way the show has squandered its own history on this subject ranks right up there.  On the main canvas, Carol, Michonne, and Morgan have all lost children to monsters and have each struggled to deal with it in their own way to be able to go on.  But this is the first mention Michonne has been allowed to make of it and then only in the very briefest way.  It was certainly fueling Morgan's part in the drama over looking for Henry but Rick never saw that, just his ongoing instability.  The most egregious of the three for me may be his complete lack of interaction with Carol.  They have such a long and convoluted history over Rick's role in losing Sophia and then having to put her down and it made for a great episode waaay back in season 4 in Indifference when these characters still talked to each other, but they haven't done more than pass each other on the steps while each dealing with their own separate storylines. 

I read Rick not being surprised or confused by what Michonne said as him not giving a damn about anything to do with her story.  Much like the 'writers'.

I agree with you about the disgraceful way this show has pissed on its own history, especially regarding Morgan and Michonne.  A lot of time has been spent on Carol's loss of Sophia.  A LOT.  I'm not a Carol fan but even I was shocked and angered by Carol's non-reaction to Carl's death.  There is no way on earth Carol would just shrug that off.  Carl and Sophia were playmates and Lori was a good friend.  The loss of Carl would have brought all those memories back to Carol.  I know Henry is supposed to be the one-size fits all replacement for all the lost children, but I call BULLSHIT.

I've been quite vocal about how much I hate what's been done to my favourite character.  It makes me sick that, for Michonne, the loss of Carl is ALL ABOUT RICK.  Michonne doesn't get to mourn the loss of Carl FOR HERSELF.  When Rick said 'it's for you' it was because he KNEW that Michonne had come because of Carl not because she was harbouring some secret crush for him (no matter what the fan-fiction writers say).  Carl is the person she told about the 'Peanut' and what happened to him.  Michonne deserves the right to mourn for herself.  If the powers that be think that Rick is such a weak character that one of the most iconic characters has to be gutted to prop him up, then maybe that character is too fucking weak to bother with.

 

As for Morgan, I guess making him a raving lunatic is a good way of ignoring his history.  Henry is a very poor substitute for Duane.  One would think that there might be a moment when Rick and Morgan acknowledge that now they're are both men who have lost sons in horrible ways, but I guess it's better if they just kill a bunch of people in really cool ways.

44 minutes ago, A-Lo said:

Why does Michonne's wig look so different this season?  It looks like either she shrunk or it grew.  It's very distracting and all I can think about when she's onscreen.  Yep...that's all I got from last night's episode.

It's awful.  They're in Atlanta, for God's sake.  They can't find ONE PERSON who knows how to do a wig with locs.  Not just for Michonne but for that woodland creature on Zeke's head too.

[Mahamid Frauded Me]

Glad no Maggie, her southern accent is getting worse and worse every season. I really wish Darryl would wash his hair

[BetyBee]

I actually enjoyed the episode.  I liked that the characters were actually speaking to one another and that there were several references to old storylines, from back when it was a better show.  Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I think that Michonne is aware of Rick putting on his murder jacket and going out to kill people, the exact opposite of what Carl probably said in the letter and certainly said when he was dying.  I think they will soon part ways because of the differing points of view.  I liked the way Carol was used in this episode - she was human again, but still bad ass.  I am shipping Carol/Ezekiel and I liked seeing them holding hands.  Even Daryl and Tara had a reasonable conversation.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that Negan & Jadis did, but there was a bit of development.  I was wondering why Jadis hid when the helicopter came, until it was too late, but maybe she was supposed to be in a certain spot and wasn't due to Negan and his endless yakking.  I thought Negan picked up FPP, but thanks to the smart posters here, I bet it's Gregory or the bar code savior.  It would be cool if it was Sherry.  

Rick's behavior was appalling .  Is he still supposed to be a good guy?

[tricknasty]

39 minutes ago, Mahamid Frauded Me said:

Glad no Maggie, her southern accent is getting worse and worse every season. I really wish Darryl would wash his hair

If Daryl washed his hair the viewers wouldn't recognize him, plus that's where he stores the oil for his motorcycle.

[Iguessnot]

19 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I actually enjoyed the episode.  I liked that the characters were actually speaking to one another and that there were several references to old storylines, from back when it was a better show.  Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I think that Michonne is aware of Rick putting on his murder jacket and going out to kill people, the exact opposite of what Carl probably said in the letter and certainly said when he was dying.  I think they will soon part ways because of the differing points of view.  I liked the way Carol was used in this episode - she was human again, but still bad ass.  I am shipping Carol/Ezekiel and I liked seeing them holding hands.  Even Daryl and Tara had a reasonable conversation.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that Negan & Jadis did, but there was a bit of development.  I was wondering why Jadis hid when the helicopter came, until it was too late, but maybe she was supposed to be in a certain spot and wasn't due to Negan and his endless yakking.  I thought Negan picked up FPP, but thanks to the smart posters here, I bet it's Gregory or the bar code savior.  It would be cool if it was Sherry.  

Rick's behavior was appalling .  Is he still supposed to be a good guy?

Jadis didn't hide. The flare that Negan had was extinguished in the puddle and she ran to get another flare. By the time she came back out with a new flare, the helicopter had turned around.

[iMonrey]

Well, at least they finally killed Jared, so there's that. I mean, we've had episode after episode where either Negan or Simon are just standing there, or lying there, begging to be killed, and enemies with machine guns blazing, and they continue to walk away without a scratch. At least they finally killed somebody, And Jared's death felt more old-school Walking Dead. 

I also thought it was kind of neat that the spot where Carol found Henry looked like the same spot where Sofia was hiding back in Season 2 so that was a nice call back. (On Talking Dead they confirmed it was in fact filmed in the same spot.)

Other than that? The episode was garbage.

Quote

I'm watching it right now, and did I have a mini stroke? Because how in the hell did Negan suddenly have a flare and a gun and her pictures?

Honest to Pete, the editing and/or directing on this show is just awful. I couldn't figure out where he got them from either. 

I'm just SO SICK of Negan's Teflon-plated plot armor on this show. I think I could overlook all of the junkyard people idiocy and regard Jadis as my favorite character of all time if she would have just killed Negan. But of course not. Because this show stupidly thinks we love Negan and want to see him smirking and smiling and listen to him talk about his cock and balls every week. When are they going to figure out how sick of this we are?

[ShadowHunter]

I have a small interest in who is flying the Helicopter but that's it. My mind drifted a lot durning the episode. 

Well at least Westworld will be back soon. 

[Lola82]

The thing that bothered me most about this episode was Jadis's pristine white sheets. Where does she wash and iron them in the middle of her trash heap??

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I just want to know if they have been playing a long game and if that helicopter is the same one seen in Days Gone Bye.  Or if not, part of the same company(?)/group(?)/division(?) as the one seen in the pilot episode.

(and yes, I am aware there is a bit of distance between Atlanta and the Washington,DC areas)

[Quilty]

15 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

"If my dick could fly with my whirling balls as propellers, it'd look and sound a lot like that."

Can we start a thread just for Neagan's genitals? They have become a regular cast member.

[Sentient Meat]

The episode was a win for me if only because Jadis went back to a normal hairstyle and conventional speech pattern.  Thank you, writers... now if you only can do the same at some later point with Ezekiel.  Moving epiphany when Morgan answered Rick that he saved him because "his son was there", and then Rick had to look at himself in that anvilicious mirror.  I'm not sure though that he had yet got it when he and Michonne exchanged I love yous... but hopefully it finally hits him after the letter.  Endless repeated cycles of vengeance are the cause of so many much misery and war... doesn't matter who's right or wrong... at a certain point it just needs to stop.  If this show only gets that point across, then maybe it will all be worth it.

[heisenberg]

12 hours ago, spiderpig said:

Je suis desolee.

mais non voyons!   Writers should be ashamed,  everything is now a mess.

 

I had also lots of difficulty to follow the whole thing. 

I did something that I was not doing before,  fastforward on most of the dialogues.  they are getting on my nerve by repeating the same stuff over and over, plus the acting turned really bad anyway.  Rick and Michonne, Carol and Morgan, etc...  All the mumbling that brings nothing to the plot...

Edited April 2, 2018 by heisenberg

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

1 minute ago, heisenberg said:

mais non voyons!   Writers should be ashamed,  everything is now a mess.

 

I had also lots of difficulty to follow the whole thing. 

I did something that I was not doing before,  fastforward on most of the dialogues.  they are getting on my nerve by repeating the same stuff ovef and over, plus the acting turned really bad anyway.  Rick and Michonne, Carol and Morgan, etc...  All the mumbling that brings nothing to the plot...

I'm 'archiving' the back half of this season, but as of right now, I feel absolutely no desire to put myself through the torture of actually watching them at any point in time.

I don't feel too terribly lost - more than people already are by the horrible episodic editing - just by snarking up the Live threads as people are posting their reactions and then checking out the episode threads afterwards.

[Mu Shu]

2 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

I read Rick not being surprised or confused by what Michonne said as him not giving a damn about anything to do with her story.  Much like the 'writers'.

I agree with you about the disgraceful way this show has pissed on its own history, especially regarding Morgan and Michonne.  A lot of time has been spent on Carol's loss of Sophia.  A LOT.  I'm not a Carol fan but even I was shocked and angered by Carol's non-reaction to Carl's death.  There is no way on earth Carol would just shrug that off.  Carl and Sophia were playmates and Lori was a good friend.  The loss of Carl would have brought all those memories back to Carol.  I know Henry is supposed to be the one-size fits all replacement for all the lost children, but I call BULLSHIT.

I've been quite vocal about how much I hate what's been done to my favourite character.  It makes me sick that, for Michonne, the loss of Carl is ALL ABOUT RICK.  Michonne doesn't get to mourn the loss of Carl FOR HERSELF.  When Rick said 'it's for you' it was because he KNEW that Michonne had come because of Carl not because she was harbouring some secret crush for him (no matter what the fan-fiction writers say).  Carl is the person she told about the 'Peanut' and what happened to him.  Michonne deserves the right to mourn for herself.  If the powers that be think that Rick is such a weak character that one of the most iconic characters has to be gutted to prop him up, then maybe that character is too fucking weak to bother with.

 

As for Morgan, I guess making him a raving lunatic is a good way of ignoring his history.  Henry is a very poor substitute for Duane.  One would think that there might be a moment when Rick and Morgan acknowledge that now they're are both men who have lost sons in horrible ways, but I guess it's better if they just kill a bunch of people in really cool ways.

It's awful.  They're in Atlanta, for God's sake.  They can't find ONE PERSON who knows how to do a wig with locs.  Not just for Michonne but for that woodland creature on Zeke's head too.

At this point, zekes wig looks like long, dried up dog turds.  

[mjc570]

At this point, I only like the high level dialogue:  "If shit could shit, it wouldn't look as shitty as you."  Thanks, writers.

[Bryndza]

I thought Michonne said “Andre”, her son.

Quote

Nice that the show let Michonne mention Andrea.  Too bad they didn't allow her to mention her own fucking child but that's probably because Rick wouldn't know who she was talking about.  I'll bet good money that Rick has no idea that Michonne had a child or even a life before she started fucking him.  Her function is to keep Rick Grimes going.

[peach]

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

The episode was a win for me if only because Jadis went back to a normal hairstyle and conventional speech pattern.  Thank you, writers... now if you only can do the same at some later point with Ezekiel.  Moving epiphany when Morgan answered Rick that he saved him because "his son was there", and then Rick had to look at himself in that anvilicious mirror.  I'm not sure though that he had yet got it when he and Michonne exchanged I love yous... but hopefully it finally hits him after the letter.  Endless repeated cycles of vengeance are the cause of so many much misery and war... doesn't matter who's right or wrong... at a certain point it just needs to stop.  If this show only gets that point across, then maybe it will all be worth it.

But how is it endless cycles of vengeance?  It doesn't matter who's right or wrong?  All these communities are enslaved by Negan.  Enslaved.  So their choices are be slaves or fight to overthrow him.  This is also a problem of this show taking entire seasons to encompass a few days.  These endless cycles are just a few days of fighting.  If they stop fighting or don't win, then they are slaves.

As for some other comments, it's Jesus' fault they had a bunch of POW's at Hilltop.  They did not surrender to Team Rick in terms of joining the other side.  They were simply captured.  If they got back to the Sanctuary they would regroup to fight the Hilltop.  What would be the point of bringing anyone back?  All of Rick's fucking around at the beginning, with shooting out windows and making offers to be friendsies was a waste of time, effort, and ammo.  Just fight and win.  And they still can't trust Softy just because he didn't run when he had the chance.  It was absolutely a logistical and opsec nightmare for Jesus to bring those people to the Hilltop, and now other people have to clean up that mess and bear the burden of doing so.

All in all, this is a very dumb war, but at least they do have a reason to fight it.  To be free.

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, Nashville said:

I’m SO sorry to hear Negan’s feeling under the weather.  

Where should we bring the casseroles?  

I guess being flat on his back, tied to a Home Depot shopping cart didn't inspire too much dick bragging, so yeah, mentioning his equipment only twice was probably the sensible thing to do. Even he could see that lying there and yelling how "I'm hard! I'm always hard!" and "My ballsack is made of steel" might be a wee bit inappropriate.

Other than that, the whole segment was meaningless, as many segments are on this show. Jadis captured him, tied him up, threatened him, nearly killed him with his own bat and then... let him go. If this had a point, I'm too dim to see it. OH, and by the way - just what was Jadis' point in the framed zombie? I mean, it couldn't do anything, so why? Was it art? Was she showing it off for Negan?

Edited April 2, 2018 by AngelaHunter

[SoSueMe]

That frickin' helicopter is reminding me of the smoke monster in Lost. That ended up pissing me off too.

[Save Yourself]

20 minutes ago, Bryndza said:

I thought Michonne said “Andre”, her son.

I thought this too but as usual I couldn’t hear very well and couldn’t put CC on.  

[peach]

22 minutes ago, Bryndza said:

I thought Michonne said “Andre”, her son.

The only reason Michonne was talking about Andrea was because she was talking about how she lost herself in grief over her child, and Andrea brought her back from that.

[Sentient Meat]

9 minutes ago, peach said:

But how is it endless cycles of vengeance?  It doesn't matter who's right or wrong?  All these communities are enslaved by Negan.  Enslaved.  So their choices are be slaves or fight to overthrow him.  This is also a problem of this show taking entire seasons to encompass a few days.  These endless cycles are just a few days of fighting.  If they stop fighting or don't win, then they are slaves.

As for some other comments, it's Jesus' fault they had a bunch of POW's at Hilltop.  They did not surrender to Team Rick in terms of joining the other side.  They were simply captured.  If they got back to the Sanctuary they would regroup to fight the Hilltop.  What would be the point of bringing anyone back?  All of Rick's fucking around at the beginning, with shooting out windows and making offers to be friendsies was a waste of time, effort, and ammo.  Just fight and win.  And they still can't trust Softy just because he didn't run when he had the chance.  It was absolutely a logistical and opsec nightmare for Jesus to bring those people to the Hilltop, and now other people have to clean up that mess and bear the burden of doing so.

All in all, this is a very dumb war, but at least they do have a reason to fight it.  To be free.

To be free to become another form of Negan?  I get that they are all living in extraordinary circumstances, forced to live in primal conditions and make choices that no one in a civilized society should have to make, but even Negan with his terrible, fascist system that mirrors other modern dictatorships where free thought was sacrificed for security sees the value of humans as resources if nothing else.  Morgan and Rick's journey somewhat mirrors Cormac McCarthy's the Road where a man and his son attempt to negotiate a post apocalyptic landscape and while the father loses his humanity out of devotion to protecting his son, the son still retains the innocence that has been lost.  The sons are like flash drives that contain a reboot to what remained from the world before and the fathers can only think of what will protect them and have done so at the cost of their own humanity.  What good does it do to avenge your son by killing Negan, if you have become a form of Negan yourself?

The easy thing would be for the writers to have Rick kill Negan in a blaze of glory with Lucille reduced to a coil of wire and ash... but instead they have gone somewhere unexpected by explaining Negan and Rick's transformations as a natural evolution wrought by circumstance.  I haven't enjoyed the prolonged 16 episodes edging session to which the writers have subjected the audience, but I finally get where they are going and it actually might be interesting.

[peach]

Michonne and Rick are not in some kind of character competition.  They are a couple.  Michonne has been seen grieving ever since Carl died.  She irrationally wanted to save the burning gazebo; she had words with Enid and exhibited pain during the dumb Key episode; she was shown crying and reading her letter in this episode.  Why wouldn't she about comforting Rick?  And no matter how much she loved Carl, he was Rick's actual son and his main reason for living and/or trying to be a sane individual.  She knows it's a fine line into madness for him right now because she experienced it herself.  No matter how close Carl and Michonne were, Rick is the most affected by Carl dying.

Also, why would Michonne disapprove in any way of Rick going and doing what Rick does?  That's the man she fell in love with. It's bad enough they turned Carl into a peacenik on his deathbed, why should Michonne take up that banner?  I didn't see it as judgment in any way when he came back to the Hilltop. I thought it was just a look of acknowledgement.

7 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

To be free to become another form of Negan?

but even Negan with his terrible, fascist system that mirrors other modern dictatorships where free thought was sacrificed for security sees the value of humans as resources if nothing else. 

So...they should just stop fighting and stay Negan's slaves under his fascist system?

Rick doesn't want to take Negan's place.  He wants to overthrow him and then let everyone live free in their own communities. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by peach

[Sentient Meat]

But genocide is not the answer.  It's practically speaking the safest solution... but you should at least try to reform the ones who showed him good faith by cutting them loose.  I by no means said he should surrender to Negan... I said he should avoid becoming him simply to avoid more complicated solutions.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Sentient Meat

[SnarkyTart]

11 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

OH, and by the way - just what was Jadis' point in the framed zombie? I mean, it couldn't do anything, so why? Was it art? Was she showing it off for Negan?

Yeah...this.  Since all the other idiocy has been (well) dissected by others, this was the only piece of idiocy left undissected until you mentioned it.  It really bothered me.  Negan is strapped to the mechanic's dolly with what looks like cat 5 cable just below his shoulders, another above his wrists, and another at his ankles. His head is maybe 18" above ground level.   The zombie, Winslow 3.0, is arched like a bow, with its head, arms and legs all secured to the cart (which looks a little like a hotel luggage cart).  The zombie's mouth is maybe 3 1/2 feet above ground level.  Jadis wheels the zombie cart into the arena and gives it a push towards Negan.  Now, assuming that Jadis intended for the zombie to slowly eat Negan, if her plan had been realized, exactly how was this supposed to work?  Neither Negan or Winslow can move, and Winslow's mouth is easily 2 feet above Negan's body, well beyond munching range. 

Not that it matters much, given that, in the short moment it took Jadis to disappear around the corner of garbage to get the zombie cart, Negan somehow managed to get out of the one strap of cable that had been around his wrists, freeing his arms to grab Jadis's bag, get the flare, remove the flare cap, rub the flare against the striking surface to light it, grab Jadis's photos and stack them in a pile on the ground next to his hand, and grab a gun.  Meep meep.

[Haleth]

I think the only thing I enjoyed was the promo for FTWD where

Spoiler

Morgan knocks Nick on his face.

If the writers don't wrap up this boring Savior/Negan business in the next 2 episodes I won't be back in the fall.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Haleth

[peach]

CDB don't owe the Saviors a goddamn thing, including survival, as the Saviors have been living off the stolen labor, food and murder of everyone else.  And Rick has never expressed the desire to genocide everyone, and in fact, errs on the side of keeping people alive.  His continued wooing of the garbage people is an example.  But killing enemy fighters is how wars work.  Sure, one guy untied him and got killed as a result, but war is hell.

[SoSueMe]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I think the only thing I enjoyed was the promo for FTWD where

  Hide contents

Morgan knocks Nick on his face.

If the writers don't wrap up this boring Savior/Negan business in the next 2 episodes I won't be back in the fall.

Do we know for sure if the show will be back in the fall?

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, peach said:

But killing enemy fighters is how wars work.  Sure, one guy untied him and got killed as a result, but war is hell.

I had no problem with Rick killing him. I was just surprised (a good thing, on this show!) at how underhanded, sneaky and ruthless he was killing the bearded guy, who could easily have killed Rick or let the zombie do it, but saved him instead. Not a criticism, just an observation!;)

 

1 hour ago, SnarkyTart said:

Negan somehow managed to get out of the one strap of cable that had been around his wrists, freeing his arms to grab Jadis's bag, get the flare, remove the flare cap, rub the flare against the striking surface to light it, grab Jadis's photos and stack them in a pile on the ground next to his hand, and grab a gun.  Meep meep.

Tricky, agile bastard, that Negan. A regular Houdini, had Houdini talked incessantly about his dick and his nutsack. But yeah, Winslow 3.0 had his head immobilized so I just couldn't see how he was supposed to eat Negan. I guess Jadis could have set up another gladiator battle but I'm betting no one wanted to see Negan in his shorts.

[oakville]

I can't figure out how Negan got a gun & and a flare to threaten Jadis. Jadis should have killed him. Morgan is back to being crazy. I don't like the scenes in the dark with Henry. I don't understand how the walkers found the bar and failed to attack Rick & Morgan. I like the mystery helicopter.

I wonder where Jadis found the clean Ikea studio to sleep in. ?

[Starchild]

12 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

This is old school story telling, and I don't have a problem with it..  The internet age has ruined/destroyed a lot of things, too many things  that are too off topic to mention.  Today things that happen instantly due to the internet, actually took much longer before the internet.  But in the olden days, people actually didn't have to have instant gratification, they could wait and let things play out over time.  It allowed for proper story telling.  You could have an end of season cliffhanger, not knowing if characters were coming back then next season or not, and people wouldn't get upset about it.  I am in know hurry to find out all that is going on within the show. 

Actually, wasn't old-school TV episodic? All questions answered by the end of the hour? At least until "Hill Street Blues" (RIP Steven Bochco)

[Mu Shu]

4 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I guess being flat on his back, tied to a Home Depot shopping cart didn't inspire too much dick bragging, so yeah, mentioning his equipment only twice was probably the sensible thing to do. Even he could see that lying there and yelling how "I'm hard! I'm always hard!" and "My ballsack is made of steel" might be a wee bit inappropriate.

Other than that, the whole segment was meaningless, as many segments are on this show. Jadis captured him, tied him up, threatened him, nearly killed him with his own bat and then... let him go. If this had a point, I'm too dim to see it. OH, and by the way - just what was Jadis' point in the framed zombie? I mean, it couldn't do anything, so why? Was it art? Was she showing it off for Negan?

Yeah, what was the point of the framed zombie?  All it could do was snarl and hopefully roll it’s eyes at Negans dick talk.  And it looked so stupid and feeble.

had to be some type of shitty outsider art. 

[diebartdie]

7 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

Yeah, what was the point of the framed zombie?  All it could do was snarl and hopefully roll it’s eyes at Negans dick talk.  And it looked so stupid and feeble.

had to be some type of shitty outsider art. 

Well, I took one for the team yall and watched talking dead. The walker on the cart thing, it folded down so the mouth could have been right on Negan's pride. Now how the eff we were supposed to know that, I haven't a clue.

[Mu Shu]

8 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

Well, I took one for the team yall and watched talking dead. The walker on the cart thing, it folded down so the mouth could have been right on Negan's pride. Now how the eff we were supposed to know that, I haven't a clue.

Oh sweet baby Jesus in the bullrushes. That’s stupid. 

Thanks?  

I think it’s pretty fucked to make people stay up late on a Sunday night to find out what happened on a show AFTER the show. 

And there is no damn way that Rick is any where in the same league of bad as a face ironing, doctor immolating, Head bashing, serial rapist.  No those women in his “harem” aren’t there by choice.  

[mandolin]

It makes me sad that the best parts of an episode are call backs to earlier (good) seasons (Sophia’s hiding spot, “you know me!”). Do the writers realize it makes me dislike the current crap even more? And that simply reusing past places, lines, etc isn’t enough to make a good episode. And the fact that they DO remember things that happened in the past but so often choose not to be consistent make me feel some kind of way. And it ain’t good. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I don't know what's worse.  The fact that a person like Negan exists, or the fact that after all this time, not one person in "Negan-land" has ever tried revolting.

The women in the harem wanted Eugene to cook up some poison to kill him, Dwight has been regretting joining up ever since his wife became Negan's, and its been implied lately that Simon is a bit of rogue wild-card.

So, with all those factors involved, not once has any of these people tried anything individually or banding together.  If the women were wanting to poison Negan, how did they & Dwight's wife + Dwight never come together and brainstorm something up to end the reign of terror??

And you can't tell me that there is no way a lot of Saviors would be too broken up about Negan being offed, as that leaves a power vacuum at the very top.

Damn it.  I keep falling back on old habits of thinking logically, and this show wouldn't recognize logic if it were a walker and bit its face off.

[diebartdie]

1 minute ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I don't know what's worse.  The fact that a person like Negan exists, or the fact that after all this time, not one person in "Negan-land" has ever tried revolting.

 

 

I think for most of the men though, Neganland has been a pretty sweet deal. I think we, the audience, happen to come into his story right as things were starting to fray around the edges for him. In other words, I think someone (Simon? Dwight?) was about thisclose to breaking bad on Negan anyway.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, mandolin said:

It makes me sad that the best parts of an episode are call backs to earlier (good) seasons (Sophia’s hiding spot, “you know me!”). 

Sophia's hiding spot qualified as a genuine callback.  But I get so sick of hearing (seemingly almost every week) how different shots are callbacks to previous episodes.  They usually point these out on Talking Dead:  "Rick is standing next to a picture, which is a callback to season 3, when he was also standing next to a picture", or something else equally ridiculous.  It just makes the people making the show sound so pompous.

2 hours ago, diebartdie said:

I think for most of the men though, Neganland has been a pretty sweet deal. I think we, the audience, happen to come into his story right as things were starting to fray around the edges for him. In other words, I think someone (Simon? Dwight?) was about thisclose to breaking bad on Negan anyway.

The men have it good as long as they don't mind Negan taking their wives, and getting burned in the face with a hot iron if they get close to them again. 

Unfortunately, in this world, it seems like a revolt is more likely to come in the form of a power grab from someone like Simon, than from someone genuinely interested in creating a more humane situation.  And lately of course, we're getting repeated messages that Negan has good intentions for most, it's just his means that are messed up.

[mandolin]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

Sophia's hiding spot qualified as a genuine callback.  But I get so sick of hearing (seemingly almost every week) how different shots are callbacks to previous episodes.  They usually point these out on Talking Dead:  "Rick is standing next to a picture, which is a callback to season 3, when he was also standing next to a picture", or something else equally ridiculous.  It just makes the people making the show sound so pompous.

 

 I don’t watch talking dead anymore, so I can’t comment on what they say there, but I noticed the hiding place being the same as where Carol was looking, and the speech Rick gave to Morgan when Morgan started to flip out was almost the same as the one in Clear. They do do these things on purpose to an extent, though maybe they try to make more out of nothing on talking dead than is actually there. As I said, I can’t comment on that.  I remember some of the early Alexandria episodes were all named parts of the speech Dale gave about his watch in season one.