Shipper Wars: Favorite And Least Favorite TV Couples

[Sarahsmile416]

29 minutes ago, Columbo said:

They had to ruin at least nine seasons of character progression from Barney so they could go for their stupid ending. If nothing else HIMYM taught me that sometimes the ending you want is not the ending you need.

Yup…as I understand it, in the very beginning the creators figured that Ted and Robin were end game which is why they filmed that ending with his kids in the beginning of the show so they didn’t obviously age too much.  Which is fine…but if you are so invested in an ending despite many seasons of many different couplings and as you said an entire season of Barney growing and changing that you can’t possibly pivot and think hmm, this may not be what is best for this show or these characters now, you have a problem. And they had to have some inkling of it since they filmed an alternate ending….really makes me doubt these show runners for other future shows 

[BlackberryJam]

Best couples, Helo and Athena.

[Chaos Theory]

I think my issue with the HIMYM Ted/Robin pairing was that they were written as two people who wanted completely different things.   For almost the entire series the show wrote them as having “feelings” for each other but just being wrong for each other.   Ted was an old fashioned guy and wanted that picket fence and two kids and a wife.   Robin was perfectly cool being single .   The ending of the show tried to have it both ways.   Ted got his perfect family AND Robin which I found kind of offensive.  

[Sarahsmile416]

2 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think my issue with the HIMYM Ted/Robin pairing was that they were written as two people who wanted completely different things.   For almost the entire series the show wrote them as having “feelings” for each other but just being wrong for each other.   Ted was an old fashioned guy and wanted that picket fence and two kids and a wife.   Robin was perfectly cool being single .   The ending of the show tried to have it both ways.   Ted got his perfect family AND Robin which I found kind of offensive.  

Correct - she was very clear with him that what he wanted and what she wanted were incompatible.  But now we’re supposed to believe that suddenly she is okay with something she never wanted before…without a single discussion- just a damned french horn and all of a sudden she’s all in? 

[Columbo]

3 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think my issue with the HIMYM Ted/Robin pairing was that they were written as two people who wanted completely different things.   For almost the entire series the show wrote them as having “feelings” for each other but just being wrong for each other.   Ted was an old fashioned guy and wanted that picket fence and two kids and a wife.   Robin was perfectly cool being single .   The ending of the show tried to have it both ways.   Ted got his perfect family AND Robin which I found kind of offensive.  

Do you think what the writers did with Tracy at the end qualifies as fridging? (Using Tracy's death to recall to his children about all the women he slept with so that they can encourage him to sleep with Aunt Robin instead of looking for an affordable therapist for the whole family)

 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Columbo said:

Do you think what the writers did with Tracy at the end qualifies as fridging?

No. It doesn't fit that particular trope.

[Peace 47]

I did a whole-series watch of Cheers when it was on Netflix a few years ago (as an  aside, it’s one of very few shows that, for me, didn’t have a noticeable quality dip in later seasons).  Contrary to what the writer/ producers themselves have said, I could at least see a world with Diane and Sam lasting for the long haul.

Something kept pulling them back together that I don’t think was purely based only on sexual attraction.  Sam made efforts to take interests in things Diane cared about, in efforts to connect with her.  It’s not like he hated everything about her world (like how he got really interested in reading that rare edition book of hers, but ended up accidentally ruining the book.)  I don’t remember Diane as much doing the same (but it’s been a few years since I’ve watched), but she tried to be supportive, like when he went for his GED (trying to celebrate him bettering himself).  They seemed to like spending time together domestically (like when Coach was third wheeling their relationship).  Now, the show is definitely of a time and place, and there are elements of their relationship played for laughs that are abusive.  But I did like them together overall.

Re: the talk about Voyager:  that show is not my jam, but I’m a The Next Generation fan, so as long as we’re talking Trek, I really liked Picard and Crusher and was disappointed that they only teased their relationship, like, once a season.  The final season episode “Attached,” where Beverly discovers how far back and how deeply in love Picard was with her, was just crackling with chemistry.

[Hiyo]

I'm not usually one for shipping characters, but Picard and Crusher were one of my few exceptions.

 

[Chaos Theory]

5 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I'm not usually one for shipping characters, but Picard and Crusher were one of my few exceptions.

 

And I thought I was the only one who shipped Picard and Crusher.    I kinda wish the show had done more then dabble in the pairing.  

[partofme]

8 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I could at least see a world with Diane and Sam lasting for the long haul.

Something kept pulling them back together that I don’t think was purely based only on sexual attraction.  Sam made efforts to take interests in things Diane cared about, in efforts to connect with her.  It’s not like he hated everything about her world (like how he got really interested in reading that rare edition book of hers, but ended up accidentally ruining the book.)  I don’t remember Diane as much doing the same (but it’s been a few years since I’ve watched), but she tried to be supportive, like when he went for his GED (trying to celebrate him bettering himself).  They seemed to like spending time together domestically (like when Coach was third wheeling their relationship)

I ironically started watching Cheers in syndication the summer before Rebecca started.  I could never get into the Rebecca years.  I agree with what you said above, I see no reason why Sam and Diane couldn't have lasted.  Remember the first time they broke up, it was because Diane thought Sam would hate that painting of her, and when he actually saw it, it was obvious he was really moved by it.  So sad.  One thing I really missed when Coach died was that he was a huge Sam and Diane cheerleader, the show wasn't the same without him.

[Chaos Theory]

I really like high dark dramas that treat women well or at least like characters that can move a plot  so I really love the pairings of Marty and Wendy Byrd on Ozark and Jimmy/Saul and Kim on Better Call Saul.   

[Featherhat]

20 hours ago, Bastet said:

That's the problem with a lot of will they/won't they couples -- they're not suited to a traditional long-term couple relationship, but the writers try to force them into one once they quit dragging things out and hook them up, as if it's the only kind that exists, and it's just a big ol' mess.

Let some of them decide they should just fuck a few times to get it out of their system and move on.  Let some of them agree to a friends with benefits relationship.  Let some of them try the couple thing and realize it's not right for them, without all the melodrama.  Let some of them - gasp - decide their friendship and/or work relationship would be altered by adding sexual intimacy, and they'd rather keep things as they are rather than risk that changed dynamic having a negative effect.

I agree that a lot of WT/WT couples aren't necessarily suited to a long term relationship, especially not if they've created so much melodrama in their lives because they can't effing sit down and communicate with each other and I have no idea how they'd actually function in a real relationship. 

However by their very nature they can't "just fuck a few times" and get it out of their systems. You can't drag this out for 5-8 years and then go "oh, well that was enough for us, we're better as friends or fuck buddies or work colleagues after all." If a show wants to go that route then do it no later than S2-3 like Ted/Robin the first time around and work them back to being friends or like some temp ships on GA. 

One of the reasons often given by the characters for why they don't just go for it *is* because it might mess up the working dynamic they already have and that's the excuse for dragging it out until everyone is bored. 

It would take way better writing than most of these shows have to do "I don't know Castle, I think we work better as flirty friends with benefits instead of torturing ourselves with this" in S7 no matter how terrible the dragging out over and over again was. 

Harm and Mac from JAG are two I can't actually picture being in a relationship but their WT/WT reappearing 15 years later in NCIS:LA was still frustrating. I mean these were two who were almost making out at her engagement party to another man, prompting *his* girlfriend to tell her fiance that it was alright because they needed to say goodbye to each other emotionally. When you get to that place (publicly!) whilst the relationship is dysfunctional I don't think it's going to be easy for the writers to walk it back. 

I do think it might work better with some On again/Off Again couples though because they tend to get together for the first time much earlier in the show than TW/TW. 

 

Quote

I think a lot of shippers often tend to forget this fact, too, and that also factors in. They push the writers to make the ship canon, the writers listen, and the shippers get angry when the couple has its predictable back and forth/break up and get back together/etc., even though, like you said, with some of these couples, the fact they can't maintain a long-term relationship is kind of the point. 

I think showrunners "listen" to fans much less than both fans and non fans think. It's more likely they bow to the network who want a traditional path of back and forth and then a traditional "happy ending". It's a TV formula that's proved it works. And if a show truly *doesn't* want to put together a co lead couple with awesome chemistry then they will run it into the ground with a different pairing rather than do so despite fan and critic derision. Step forward Sleepy Hollow. 

Almost none of these relationships work in real life, people don't have several long term love triangles without making a choice, they don't openly angst about each other for years without doing anything so that everyone who meets them knows what's up or deny their attracted to someone for years on end or spend years pining for their work partner without considering if it's worth it to transfer and then date. Most people who constantly break up and get back together are known as a toxic couple to their friends and family, not as true love. But real life type relationships don't bring in eyeballs is the thinking. 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Featherhat

[AgathaC]

12 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I did a whole-series watch of Cheers when it was on Netflix a few years ago (as an  aside, it’s one of very few shows that, for me, didn’t have a noticeable quality dip in later seasons).  Contrary to what the writer/ producers themselves have said, I could at least see a world with Diane and Sam lasting for the long haul.

Something kept pulling them back together that I don’t think was purely based only on sexual attraction.  Sam made efforts to take interests in things Diane cared about, in efforts to connect with her.  It’s not like he hated everything about her world (like how he got really interested in reading that rare edition book of hers, but ended up accidentally ruining the book.)  I don’t remember Diane as much doing the same (but it’s been a few years since I’ve watched), but she tried to be supportive, like when he went for his GED (trying to celebrate him bettering himself).  They seemed to like spending time together domestically (like when Coach was third wheeling their relationship).  Now, the show is definitely of a time and place, and there are elements of their relationship played for laughs that are abusive.  But I did like them together overall.

I feel much the same. They could have worked — though they were both so stubborn it really would have taken effort on both their parts.

As I recall, there were signs that Diane was willing to adapt. In the first season, she mentioned that she was now able to watch a hockey fight and once even chose sides (though that was more about the group than Sam specifically). But other things like engaging in a water gun fight were probably more Sam’s world than hers. I remember when Sumner reappeared the first time:

Diane: Sumner, cut the crap.

Sumner: Cut the crap?! What have they done to you in this place?

Sometimes I felt like both were putting on a bit of an act. Like Sam was smarter and enjoyed some more high-brow things than would seem apparent and Diane was capable of enjoying some things she pretended were beneath her. But neither one was willing to fully give up their own images of themselves.

But, yeah, watching some of their relationship now is difficult. Their Season 2 breakup is downright painful. Actually, I recall reading that when they filmed it, you could hear a pin drop. I can believe it. Brilliantly acted. Almost too good.

[proserpina65]

21 hours ago, SusanM said:

My husband and I are re-watching Star Trek Voyager right now and it's obvious in the first few seasons that they toyed with making Janeway and Chacotay a couple. I'm glad they never went there with them even though I think they would have been good together. 

This was my biggest disappointment with Voyager.  I so wanted Janeway and Chakotay to end up together.  The less said about Chakotay and Miss Jello Molds, the better.

[proserpina65]

23 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I think showrunners "listen" to fans much less than both fans and non fans think. It's more likely they bow to the network who want a traditional path of back and forth and then a traditional "happy ending". It's a TV formula that's proved it works. And if a show truly *doesn't* want to put together a co lead couple with awesome chemistry then they will run it into the ground with a different pairing rather than do so despite fan and critic derision. Step forward Sleepy Hollow. 

I never shipped the two main characters on Sleepy Hollow.  They had fantastic chemistry as friends but I saw nothing romantic between them at all.  That doesn't mean that Katrina wasn't a terrible character, though.  She was awful until, ironically, she turned evil at the end of her run.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I never shipped the two main characters on Sleepy Hollow.  They had fantastic chemistry as friends but I saw nothing romantic between them at all.  That doesn't mean that Katrina wasn't a terrible character, though.  She was awful until, ironically, she turned evil at the end of her run.

I didn't ship them as in I wanted them to get together right now but I thought they had great chemistry and that they would probably going there as most male/female two handers do and was okay with that. There were definite teasing scenes where the writers played with it a bit IMHO. Although that is one where I think a lot of work would have to be put in storywise to make them work as a long term couple. 

I think the bigger issue is that the show moved away from Crane and Abbie as Witnesses stopping the apocalypse to Crane Family Drama with Katrina and Henry, whether or not Ichabbie was ever going to happen romantically. I can't think anyone expected that pre S2 whether they shipped them or not. 

It ended up being very uneven, like if Mulder had a wife and kid drama dominating his life instead of his Samantha Quest and Scully just had what she had in canon. They were even (mostly...) in terms of family and ill advised brief hook ups but the focus was always on them as partners on cases. (I appear to be on an X-Files kick after rewatching for the first time in years thanks to D+). Castle/Beckett took turns in having relationships and family drama, as did Booth and Brenan (not saying it was well written either). Even in something like White Collar with two male co-leads Neal had his obsessive quest with Kate and then Sara Ellis and Peter had one of TV's healthiest cop marriages one wasn't simply commenting on the other's relationship whilst having nothing of his own. Which is basically how Abbie ended up, almost all her romance happened off screen. 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Featherhat

[DearEvette]

Sigh. Talking about Sleepy Hollow just hurts my heart.

I always felt that Tom Mison played Ichabod as if he were in love with Abbie.  His acting choices, the way he looked a ther  just felt like it and there were a couple of hugs....

Nicole played Abbie a little more close to the chest.  I got the impression it was mainly because Abbie was just a more closed off character.

The showrunners 100% did not want Abbie and Ichabod together.  It was less that they wanted them to be BFFs, imo, and more about making Katrina a bigger character.  But they miscalculated there and in the zeal to really push her forward and make her sexier (while also blatantly downplaying Abbie's female appeal) just had the opposite effect on the fandom.  Instead of embracing her they rejected her. 

I understand if a show's position is that two characters I ship mightily and who in my mind NEED to be together are not and will not be a couple.  But don't introduce a succession of rando love interests and then proceed to Gary Stu/Mary Sue them and make them super awesome just for the sake of sinking a ship.

[proserpina65]

Just now, Featherhat said:

I think the bigger issue is that the show moved away from Crane and Abbie as Witnesses stopping the apocalypse to Crane Family Drama with Katrina and Henry, whether or not Ichabbie was ever going to happen romantically. I can't think anyone expected that pre S2 whether they shipped them or not. 

This I absolutely agree with.  Season two definitely went badly awry when it brought Katrina more to the forefront.

[GHScorpiosRule]

My absolute favorite scene from Sleepy Hollow was Ichabod giving advice to "Yolanda" in season one. 🥰

Whaaat?

[AgathaC]

7 hours ago, partofme said:

I ironically started watching Cheers in syndication the summer before Rebecca started.  I could never get into the Rebecca years.  I agree with what you said above, I see no reason why Sam and Diane couldn't have lasted.  Remember the first time they broke up, it was because Diane thought Sam would hate that painting of her, and when he actually saw it, it was obvious he was really moved by it.  So sad.  One thing I really missed when Coach died was that he was a huge Sam and Diane cheerleader, the show wasn't the same without him.

That’s also part of the reason Shelley Long left. The “left for a movie career that went nowhere” story gets more play, but it was more complicated. Nicholas Colosanto was the one cast member she was close to (to the point he would stick up for her on set when the “we hate Shelley” club got going). After his death, she was even more ready to leave.

[Mabinogia]

16 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Re: the talk about Voyager:  that show is not my jam, but I’m a The Next Generation fan, so as long as we’re talking Trek, I really liked Picard and Crusher and was disappointed that they only teased their relationship, like, once a season.  

Loved Picard and Crusher!!!! I have mixed feelings about wanting more than the teases we got. On the one hand, I think the actors had great chemistry and are both strong enough actors to pull off an actual relationship, and I think they could have a mature, healthy relationship which is rare on television and would be wonderful to see. On the other hand, healthy, mature relationships are rare on television and I always had a fear that the writers would screw it up. In the fanfiction in my mind they had a long, wonderful relationship together and that is how I shall always remember it. 

[Shannon L.]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Sigh. Talking about Sleepy Hollow just hurts my heart.

I always felt that Tom Mison played Ichabod as if he were in love with Abbie.  His acting choices, the way he looked a ther  just felt like it and there were a couple of hugs....

Nicole played Abbie a little more close to the chest.  I got the impression it was mainly because Abbie was just a more closed off character.

The showrunners 100% did not want Abbie and Ichabod together.  It was less that they wanted them to be BFFs, imo, and more about making Katrina a bigger character.  But they miscalculated there and in the zeal to really push her forward and make her sexier (while also blatantly downplaying Abbie's female appeal) just had the opposite effect on the fandom.  Instead of embracing her they rejected her. 

I understand if a show's position is that two characters I ship mightily and who in my mind NEED to be together are not and will not be a couple.  But don't introduce a succession of rando love interests and then proceed to Gary Stu/Mary Sue them and make them super awesome just for the sake of sinking a ship.

I agree with all of this--especially how just talking about it hurts your heart.  They had such a good thing going and, yes, they miscalculated in the worst way.

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

My absolute favorite scene from Sleepy Hollow was Ichabod giving advice to "Yolanda" in season one. 🥰

Whaaat?

Was she the On Star operator?

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

Was she the On Star operator?

Yes!😄😄😄

[Shannon L.]

18 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes!😄😄😄

That scene was brilliant.  That first season had some of my favorite "fish out of water" moments.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Shannon L.

[SmithW6079]

12 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

And I thought I was the only one who shipped Picard and Crusher.    I kinda wish the show had done more then dabble in the pairing.  

That they didn't put them together was a temporal crime. All we got was that Picard and Beverly had wed but divorced sometime between the finale's "present" and "future" and that she kept his last name as captain of the USS Pasteur. Would it have killed them to show that Beverly was Picard's wife in the Nexus as a nod to the fans who wanted them together?

[Hiyo]

Quote

Picard and Beverly had wed but divorced sometime between the finale's "present" and "future"

Which was a 25 year period, which we have now passed since that episode was aired, and damn I feel old...

[SusanM]

12 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

That they didn't put them together was a temporal crime. All we got was that Picard and Beverly had wed but divorced sometime between the finale's "present" and "future" and that she kept his last name as captain of the USS Pasteur.

I don't watch Picard but I know Seven of Nine has been on it - do they ever reference her and Chakotay in any way?  In the finale of Voyager their great romance was a major plot point but I am assuming from what I've heard about her role on Picard that she is not married.

[Danny Franks]

I've been rewatching New Girl and watching the writers panic after they felt like they'd pulled the trigger too early on both their main couples is frustrating.

They have Schmidt and Cece get together in a casual relationship, then Schmidt ruins it because things get too real and he's insecure. Then they date other people for a little while, then Cece almost gets married but calls it off because she's in love with Schmidt. Then they have Schmidt cheat on her with Elizabeth because he can't choose which girl he loves. Somehow, they end up getting married and being a pretty cute couple.

Nick and Jess are another matter entirely. They were all about the build up. It was low key and comfortable for most of the first two seasons, then ramps up incredibly in the space of eight or nine episodes and ends on a genuine high... Only, that high is at the end of season two.

Everything after was an anti-climax, because the writers had no idea how to write their relationship and resorted to making Nick an ever bigger human disaster who Jess had to 'save.' He doesn't pay his bills. he keeps all his money in a brown paper bag, he eats terribly, he freaks out over being in a relationship so tries to "reassert his manhood" by going on a disastrous outdoor trip. And then they just breakup because it occurs to them they may not have the same goals in life, so even though they're in love, they don't even fight for each other.

It's all so clumsily written, and it's why I gave up on the show when it was first airing. It was just so obvious that the writers were panicking and breaking them up so they could try to reset their dynamic. By the time they get back together, the fire is well and truly out.

But I just wish they'd got Lizzy Caplan as a regular and paired her up with Nick permanently instead.

[Trini]

18 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I've been rewatching New Girl and watching the writers panic after they felt like they'd pulled the trigger too early on both their main couples is frustrating.

I didn't get that far into New Girl, but I saw this with God Friended Me, even though it only had two seasons. They had built up the romance between the two leads, Miles and Cara, fairly well and they decided to move forward as couple by the very end of the first season.

Then, when they got a 2nd season, I don't know if it was just the showrunners or network notes, but they were together for several episodes but then they backtracked hard -- giving them some silly, vague reasons for them to break up. And then giving Cara the most boring placeholder love interest that they didn't even participate in the story. But then the show was cancelled so they couldn't properly get the main couple back together, even though they were 'end game'.

The backtracking was just a waste of time with no payoff. Miles and Cara were a newly formed couple, so I think they were lots of organic ways they could have slowed down the relationship instead of nixing it, if TPTB thought they had moved too fast.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Trini
clarity

[Irlandesa]

On 4/26/2022 at 9:05 AM, partofme said:

I agree with what you said above, I see no reason why Sam and Diane couldn't have lasted.

I've found my people. In fact, if Zoom had existed during the finale, there's no way they wouldn't have kept it up.

I still think they landed back together in their old age and I'm going to need the Frasier reboot (if it ever happens) to confirm it.

[Peace 47]

16 hours ago, SusanM said:

I don't watch Picard but I know Seven of Nine has been on it - do they ever reference her and Chakotay in any way?  In the finale of Voyager their great romance was a major plot point but I am assuming from what I've heard about her role on Picard that she is not married.

I don’t watch Picard, either (saw a tiny bit of S1 but it just didn’t grab me enough to subscribe).  However, I looked up your question, and a Star Trek fan site says that the Seven/ Chakotay ship is not ever acknowledged or addressed in the show.  The showrunner has apparently said that it is safe to assume the relationship was over at least by the time of a few years prior to when the Picard timeline picks up.

I will be watching Picard season 3 whenever that comes out, though, because they have announced that the entire core TNG cast (except Wesley) are returning as S3 cast members and since I will go down with the Picard/ Crusher ship, I guess I am ready to be disappointed by the arc of their story one last time!

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Peace 47

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

I didn't get that far into New Girl, but I saw this with God Friended Me, even though it only had two seasons. They had built up the romance between the two leads, Miles and Cara, fairly well and they decided to move forward as couple by the very end of the season.

Then, when they got a 2nd season, I don't know if it was just the showrunners or network notes, but they were together for several episodes but then they backtracked hard -- giving them some silly, vague reasons for them to break up. And then giving Cara the most boring placeholder love interest that they didn't even have participate in the story. But then the show was cancelled so they couldn't properly get the main couple back together, even though they were 'end game'.

The backtracking was just a waste of time with no payoff. Miles and Cara were a newly formed couple, so I think they were lots of organic ways they could have slowed down the relationship instead of nixing it, if TPTB thought they had moved too fast.

I hated them breaking up Miles and Cara. It made no sense. They picked the dumbest reason for Cara to break up with Miles. It wasn't his fault or the God Account that her stepfather committed a crime. He did it on his own and she blamed Miles and the God Account.

I also loved Crane and Abbie together. They were a great pair. They had a ton of chemistry. But they ruined it and the show. 

[Luckylyn]

Sometimes breaking up a couple does permanent damage to my ability to root for them (Ross/Rachel- Friends).  Sometimes I root for them to work things out and get back together (Shawn/Angela- Boy Meets World, Ben/Leslie- Parks and Rec).  Sometimes I think I have lost interest in a pairing but the writers/actors win me over again by the end of the show (Nick/Jess- New Girl, Elliot/JD- Scrubs).

Great Shawn/Angela analysis on YouTube. 

 

[kathyk24]

I love Jay and Sam on Ghosts. They don't fight about stupid things. She told him about her ability to see the ghosts and he supports her. 

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, kathyk24 said:

I love Jay and Sam on Ghosts. They don't fight about stupid things. She told him about her ability to see the ghosts and he supports her. 

I also like that they didn't drag out her telling him, either. He knew by the end of the first episode. Speaks well to the trust and honesty in their relationship. 

[Egg McMuffin]

At the time of the finale, I was so terribly disappointed that “Cheers” ended with Sam and Diane apart. I didn’t understand at the time why she couldn’t stick around Boston.

As a middle-aged adult, I have convinced myself that Sam and Diane wouldn’t have worked together long term, because they didn’t share the same values. But I’m not sure the romantic in me believes that. They complemented each other so well, with her high IQ and his high EQ. And In Diane’s last regular episode, Sam fantasized about their future life together and how content he’d be with her. But he felt that she wouldn’t be content with giving up her writing to be with him and raise a family, and he loved her enough to let her go.

[kathyk24]

5 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I also like that they didn't drag out her telling him, either. He knew by the end of the first episode. Speaks well to the trust and honesty in their relationship. 

I also like that the show didn't make Jay's sister an obnoxious in law. Bela and Sam had a misunderstanding about the ghosts and worked it out. Another of my favorite couples is Jimmy and Maya DiMaio from Speechless. Their eldest child JJ has cerebral palsy and they have a great marriage. Unlike most sitcoms Maya is more impulsive and Jimmy is more laid back.

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, kathyk24 said:

I also like that the show didn't make Jay's sister an obnoxious in law. Bela and Sam had a misunderstanding about the ghosts and worked it out. 

Yes! That was such a good episode. Hopefully if/when we meet his parents someday down the line they'll continue in that vein. 

[Spartan Girl]

How Shippers Ruin Shipping

Great article on how toxic its gotten, especially the bit on the MCU and how they kind of egged them on where Emily VanCamp’s Sharon Carter was concerned. I wonder if the decision to vilify her character in TFATWS was influenced by everyone throwing a bitch fit when they found out she announced in the cast, screaming that she’d better not get in the way of a Sam/Bucky pairing. And that bit from the What If….? Zombies episode writer was abhorrent.

[Danny Franks]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:17 AM, Spartan Girl said:

How Shippers Ruin Shipping

screaming that she’d better not get in the way of a Sam/Bucky pairing. 

As if that was the only thing standing between Sam and Bucky getting together. Though wouldn't most of the people who 'ship them feel like it was a betrayal of their head-canon Steve/Bucky 'ship?

Essentially, 'shipping is often devoid of logic of any kind, and people seem to get tunnel vision where anything they watch is either reinforcing or attacking their 'ship. There's no inbetween.

As I often say when it comes to stuff like this, can't people just like things a normal amount?

Edited April 30, 2022 by Danny Franks

[Haleth]

On 4/26/2022 at 2:36 PM, Featherhat said:

Most people who constantly break up and get back together are known as a toxic couple to their friends and family, not as true love.

Kevin and Sophie on This is Us.  They are about to try it again for the third time and the family literally applauds rather than tell them they are crazy.  But the writers want to give them a happy ending.  🙄

On 4/27/2022 at 9:51 AM, SusanM said:

I don't watch Picard but I know Seven of Nine has been on it - do they ever reference her and Chakotay in any way?  In the finale of Voyager their great romance was a major plot point but I am assuming from what I've heard about her role on Picard that she is not married.

Chakotay was never mentioned as far as I remember.  Seven has been in an on again/off again relationship with another member of the crew.  

[Llywela]

7 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Chakotay was never mentioned as far as I remember.  Seven has been in an on again/off again relationship with another member of the crew.  

No, Chakotay hasn't been mentioned in PIC. The assumption is that the Seven/Chakotay relationship that was shoehorned into the Voyager finale did not last the course: they broke up and Seven moved on.

[Thomas Crown]

On 4/29/2022 at 6:17 AM, Spartan Girl said:

How Shippers Ruin Shipping

 

Great article. I wouldn't consider myself a shipper (well except maybe for Steve Austin and Jamie Summers) but I did/do enjoy a well written romance where you can root for the characters to wind up together.  The obsessiveness of some fans and shipper wars does turn me off though. I'm thankful that social media wasn't around during the 80's when 2 of my favourite shows (Moonlighting and Remington Steele) were on. I could just sit back and turn in every week to watch. I can only imagine some of the extreme reaction from shippers those shows would have gotten if social media had been around at that time.   

[Luckylyn]

Shipping isn’t inherently bad.  It’s when people go too far being willing to harass people that takes the fun out of it for people who just want to enjoy romance.  Plus it ends up giving shippers in a general a bad reputation.

 I thought of more examples of a show switching ships.  On Life Goes On nerdy Becca crushes on jock Tyler and they end up together eventually.   The relationship ends up falling apart and Becca is ends up with Jesse. I think in the end Jesse/Becca ended up being the show’s big romance.  If I remember correctly Tyler/Becca started falling apart when Tyler’s bitter over having to repeat senior year due to his poor grades.  Becca I think also idolized Tyler and didn’t know how to deal with him as a flawed person.  Her fantasy of a relationship didn’t match the reality.  Then Jesse came along as this mysterious new student.  He’d pop up here and there and at first I wasn’t sure if I liked him because I worried he might be shady.  But the chemistry between Becca/Jesse was fantastic.  He really won me over in the episode where Becca’s sixteenth birthday party goes wrong and he comforts her.  Becca/Jesse is on of my all time favorite ships.
 

Another example is Dawson’s Creek where the show seemed to be building to best friends Dawson and Joey as end game but Joey/Pacey ended up the more compelling romance.  I really think the plan was for Pacey/Joey to be a temporary obstacle to Dawson/Joey.  They broke Joey/Pacey up and tried to reorient the show to Dawson/Joey but it just did not work.  Fans couldn’t let Pacey/Joey go.  
 

Season 1 of Parks and Recreation focused on Leslie’s crush on Mark and her trying to move when he dates her friend.  I think they intended to have Mark/Leslie ultimately be together but the writers and the actor weren’t clicking.  I think when they were retooling the show the character Mark didn’t quite work anymore.  So Mark leaves and Ben and Chris join the cast.  Leslie/Ben’s enemies to lovers romance is so wonderful to watch.   They are proof you can let characters get together and they still remain interesting.   They didn’t make them a will they/won’t they until the final season.  They actually got together at a pretty nice pace and after some bumps in the road were happy together throughout the show.

[Trini]

30 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Shipping isn’t inherently bad.  It’s when people go too far being willing to harass people that takes the fun out of it for people who just want to enjoy romance.  Plus it ends up giving shippers in a general a bad reputation.

I feel the same way. But another thing I think gives 'shipping' a bad rep is certain "fans" ignoring and/or denouncing the actual narrative of a show.

Like, "I like A and B together (even though they aren't love interests)" -- that's fine. But then there's : "A and B are the actual love story of this show" (despite the narrative, actors, and writers saying the opposite) - that's a problem.

[Annber03]

13 minutes ago, Trini said:

Like, "I like A and B together (even though they aren't love interests)" -- that's fine. But then there's : "A and B are the actual love story of this show" (despite the narrative, actors, and writers saying the opposite) - that's a problem.

Agreed. One may want a pairing they enjoy to be canon, and think they make more sense as a couple compared to the one that is canon, that's normal. Most of us have been there at some point. But at the end of the day, the fact remains it's not canon, and the fans do need to acknowledge that.

Granted, that doesn't mean the show can't ever change its mind in that regard - as noted above, shows have changed course with potential pairings before, so it can happen. And I can get where sometimes it feels like what the narrative/writers/actors are claiming isn't coming across as well on screen as it should to some viewers. I think we've all had shows we've watched where the narrative/actors/writers insist a couple are madly in love, but for some reason it's just not clicking for some viewers, or any of the three just aren't selling it as well as they think they are. So I can see why some viewers will push back to some degree in that regard.

Even then, though, there's good ways to respond to that, and bad ways, and indeed, some shippers can't seem to figure out where that line lies. 

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Agreed. One may want a pairing they enjoy to be canon, and think they make more sense as a couple compared to the one that is canon, that's normal. Most of us have been there at some point. But at the end of the day, the fact remains it's not canon, and the fans do need to acknowledge that.

For me that's where writing fanfiction comes into play. I've liked pairings that were never going to be canon, some that were teased as canon, some that became canon and ended up sucking. So, if I know a show isn't going to "go there" I just go there myself. It helps that I have a very vivid imagination and was raised on soaps so I don't shy away from crazy storylines. 

I tend to like a couple based mostly on the actors' chemistry together so I'm frequently disappointed by shows, since they base their coupling mostly on storyline (as they should, but still it sometimes leads to disappointment for me). 

[Annber03]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

For me that's where writing fanfiction comes into play. I've liked pairings that were never going to be canon, some that were teased as canon, some that became canon and ended up sucking. So, if I know a show isn't going to "go there" I just go there myself. It helps that I have a very vivid imagination and was raised on soaps so I don't shy away from crazy storylines. 

I tend to like a couple based mostly on the actors' chemistry together so I'm frequently disappointed by shows, since they base their coupling mostly on storyline (as they should, but still it sometimes leads to disappointment for me). 

This is pretty much how I handle all that stuff, too :). Fanfiction is indeed great in that regard, it's such a fun way to play "what if?" further with canon. 

I think my success rate with my pairings being canon is about half and half. Some I've been very lucky to see become canon, and I've been happy with how they played out. Others didn't become canon, but the show acknowledged that there was something there, or they still had a close enough bond as friends that I could enjoy in canon and build off of in my own time, and that alone was enough to make me happy.

I have seen some pairings become canon that I just couldn't get into, and which weren't my preferred ships, but they never really affected my enjoyment of the show itself. If anything, the shippers of some of those pairings were more annoying to me than the show's take on the pairing was, but at least with the other shippers I can just ignore them and stay in my little corner of fandom. It's not as easy to do that when the show itself is being irritating in how they're promoting a canon pairing viewers may not like. 

[Winter Rose]

Now this makes me think of what went down in the Sherlock fandom. The show itself pointedly kept Sherlock, the character, out of a relationship but so much of the show's driving force was in Sherlock's interactions with other people. And actually, that's something that made shipping in Sherlock really fun, the endless possibilities of what a relationship with this character or that character or whatever would be like. And all without feeling like you're going against canon to imagine it. But while the writers enjoyed playing with subtext, I think it was done in such a way to signify that it wasn't promising anything. You were more than welcome to take Sherlock's scenes with a character romantically but the only way you'd see it play out is in your head, which I think the audience at large understood and accepted.

Except... for a particular set of Sherlock/John shippers. And I want to be clear on this because it's important, I think large fanbases are vulnerable to getting a bad rap simply because when they have a small percentage of bad eggs, it still amounts to a lot of people/they seem louder. But a certain subset of Sherlock/John fans came to the conclusion that the show was one big conspiracy - TJLC (The Johnlock Conspiracy) - where the last episode was going to reveal Sherlock and John had been in love all this time and they were going to be made a couple. It was to set the course for all representation and finally, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's soul could be at peace, because "obviously" the reason he'd grown to hate writing Sherlock Holmes stories was because society wouldn't have accepted Holmes and Watson as a couple.

So when S4 aired, and Sherlock and John were still NOT canon... all hell broke loose. From attacks on other fans, including the Sherlock/John shippers who simply liked the ship but didn't believe in canon, to hating the actors whose non-Sherlock or John characters dared take attention away from Sherlock and John's love, and then the general love/hate relationship with the writers. The writers were either bad for denying the ship or lying because it would've been a spoiler, but still queerbaiting for not following through on a promise that they never made.

And then there were others who refused to let it go, from imagining a secret fourth episode of S4 would put Sherlock and John together to S5 revealing S4 had been all a dream, or Mind Palace, and S4 was written bad on purpose. If there's ever a S5, it was always such that it wouldn't be for many years - it's been five years already. I have a really hard time believing they'd leave the show in a fever dream when there's no guarantee they'd ever get to reveal that. I find it even harder to believe anyone would write a show badly ON PURPOSE.

A lot of the criticisms of the latter two years can be chalked up to Steven Moffat's typical habits as a writer. I certainly preferred S1-2 but I still found things to like afterwards, but I do think S3-4 were guilty of being high stakes/no fallout and I'd agree Moffat's generally better at the self-contained story than a series' long arc. But, this is just my theory of it, I think for those who fell down the TJLC rabbit hole had invested so much in, not only in a ship, but being RIGHT, that they couldn't handle the reality and the problem still had to be everyone else.

[Zella]

I never shipped John and Sherlock and that fandom could be really unhinged, but the showrunners were really bad to queer-bait and then do shocked Pikachu faces when people assumed there was an implied relationship or attraction there. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Zella