S09.E07: Risking Arrest

[bichonblitz]

15 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Meri’s take on it:

Not in your family, catfish lady. Not in yours.

Edited February 26, 2018 by bichonblitz

[Gothish520]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I'll probably be deep in the minority, but I actually liked this episode. Well, I liked the second half. I thought the adults were playing up the "danger" of attending this march WAY too much in the beginning. All this talk of being arrested and power of attourney? Give me a break. And I found it odd that Christine was so scared to go, but then was practically insistent that her kids go. I was like, "wait, what???" So you WANT to put them in what you perceive to be a dangerous situation??? 

In the end, I was glad they let Paedon make his own decision. At first he came off seeming like a bit of a smug little punk. But when you dug deeper, it made sense that he didn't want to bring up all the bad feelings he had about having to leave Utah. I guess I just never realized how hard he took it. I remember them focusing a lot on Hunter's unhappiness after the move, but not Paedon. 

But I actually really enjoyed seeing the march and speeches. I'm a big supporter of free speech and the right to protest, and it makes me happy to see ANYONE using these means to address perceived government wrongs. While I could never be involved in plural marriage, I 100% support polygamy being decriminalized. As long as all involved are adults and consenting, what business is it of the governments what they do? I get the indignation. It's ridiculous. 

IMO, the Browns shouldn't even have to prove how "functional" they supposedly are (because....let's be real....). Plenty of monogamous families are insanely dysfunctional. That's not the point. And, actually, I fee like LESS abuse would go in if polygamy was legal. Because of the fear of law enforcement these families grow up with, they're not likely to report ANY wrong doing. If they aren't hidden away so much from society, less abuse will go on. 

And I liked the way Joe Darger respected the rights and feelings of the counter-protesters, and how Kody was able to admit he was wrong about their presence. 

I was glad Mariah came to support her mom, after Meri going to NYC. I do agree with Mariah about the signs referencing gays, but I can also see the poly point on this. Over the past few years they've seen gay people be allowed to finally legally marry, and they still can't. While that doesn't speak to OTHER forms of discrimination, it is one right they have over plural families. Again, I just don't think the government should be in ANYONE'S marriage. So I get it. 

I even teared up a bit at Christine's speech. I thought she did a great job, and it was cool to see her kids being so proud of her. At the end of the day, these people can be very overdramatic and it's annoying, but I support the overall idea behind the cause. 

Great post @ghoulina!

I found this episode very emotional. Either these folks truly believe in this, or they all deserve Emmys. Of all the reality shows I've seen, the personalities and emotions coming from the Browns seem the most legitimate, whether they are being cold and reserved or a blubbering mess. My husband put on one of those horrible Love and Hip Hop shows the other day and the bad acting and fake drama was truly cringe-worthy. I couldn't even stay in the same room with that mess.

That's not to say that I think everything we see is 100% real or not exaggerated. I'm sure that Christine and the others probably did sign over rights to other members of the family "just in case", (probably years ago) but having Christine go over to Robyn's on camera was just some amped-up drama for the show. Like I've said before, some of this is just for the camera and probably not near as dramatic in real life, but whatever. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Gothish520

[Gothish520]

24 minutes ago, dreadfulLeigh said:

Idk, Christine, if polygamy was so damn great, you wouldn’t have to make a big dill about giving a sister wife guardianship of your kids. You’d think it’d be a given.  

But it's not a LEGAL given. That was the point.

[islandgal140]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 With me, it's not a morality issue, but, one of concern over public safety and welfare of our communities.  Even if you leave out the issue about child abuse, you have other issues, which I won't go into here in depth on these boards.  So, while I do empathize, I'm not sure that there is a right to have multiple spouses.  Should they be prosecuted? I'm not sure about that.  To me, it is a complex issue and there may be no simple answers.  

 

You know what??!? My main problem with religious based polygamy (along with the other issues that shall remain unmentioned) is that I always come back to S1 when Meri and Kodi went out to dinner and she brought up a scenario where a woman would have multiple spouses as opposed to the man and Kodi got his patented blank Homer Simpson stare, followed by a look of absolute revulsion and declared that scenario as unnatural and disgusting. UNNATURAL AND DISGUSTING.  At the heart of FLDS polygamy, there is just a lot of sexism, female exploitation and fuckbois wanting a Frito lay variety pack of pussy all not only sanctioned but required by God.  Worse yet, men alone have the keys to the kingdom of heaven and women can be locked out of eternal life and heaven if they don't comply. The only persons with true freedom in this scenario, whether they believe or admit or not, are the men. So the FLDS plyg life something I can never get behind. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by islandgal140

[LotusFlower]

The episode would have been so much more interesting if they presented the other side to the polygamy argument.  All we heard was child abuse (!) from Kody Luther King, Jr., but there’s so much more to it.  I noticed how Kody kept saying the Utah Attorney General “appealled” the first case, but then the Supreme Court decided not to hear it, so the case was over.  Yes, but why did they lose the appeal?  Why did the state of Utah win?  That would have been interesting to hear, instead of everyone blathering on and on about their civil rights being violated.

[Galloway Cave]

1 hour ago, kicotan said:

One of his opponents in the race pointed out that in order to hold office, he'd have to take an oath to uphold the state's constitution/laws and if he's a polygamist he wouldn't be able to take the oath.

Huh. The plyg patriarch in my town was the mayor for a while.

2 hours ago, Brutus Buckeye said:

Most gay men are wealthy and White, and they still fought for their rights. 

The first part is untrue. And they are STILL fighting for their rights.

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Are you freaking serious?  That's the most disgusting thing I have ever heard and that's saying something.  I hope there is a special place in hell for this pile of shit.

I had a lot of respect for Joe Darger in that moment. He understands that the law is about the spiritual marriages of the very young girls (ie. abusing the young girls) and how Kody was basically continuing, in that moment, abuse towards women who have experienced it. It also tells me that Kody has no respect for women's voices when they are different from his. Makes me wonder what really goes on behind closed Brown doors..... 

I also found it absolutely ridiculous that this huge family has waited this long to have a durable power of attorney. It shows how stupid they are. They should have had that in place the moment they became plural and started shooting out a million kids. If they were really Truly worried about going to jail any time they went to Utah (since they travel there ALL THE TIME) they should have had one in place.

Finally, I don't think people attended their rally because people, even plygs, just don't care. No one is being arrested for the sole count of bigamy in Utah. They are rarely being arrested for the additional charges. They are being left alone to live their lives. Plyg familys are out, they are on TV, they are activists, they go about their lives like others. Yeah, some are harassed or stared at, some kids in school are picked on (like any kid in school is picked on for any given reason). Some, like Christine, live in their head like it was 1953 Short Crick. But others, like my town, don't give a shit. And good for them. 

[Jen Marie]

Just finished watching on the dvr. Corny show. 

[Jazzhands]

2 hours ago, LotusFlower said:

The episode would have been so much more interesting if they presented the other side to the polygamy argument.  All we heard was child abuse (!) from Kody Luther King, Jr., but there’s so much more to it.  I noticed how Kody kept saying the Utah Attorney General “appealled” the first case, but then the Supreme Court decided not to hear it, so the case was over.  Yes, but why did they lose the appeal?  Why did the state of Utah win?  That would have been interesting to hear, instead of everyone blathering on and on about their civil rights being violated.

I’m sure the show didn’t get into why the Browns lost the appeal because it would expose what a farce this whole episode was.  They lost their appeal on the technical legal ground of “standing,” which in a nutshell means that in order to proceed with a lawsuit, a plaintiff must demonstrate that he or she has a sufficient connection to and will suffer harm from the law or action they are challenging.  

In this case, the federal court of appeals found that the Browns did not have legal standing to challenge Utah’s anti-polygamy law because they were not in any credible fear of being prosecuted under it. 

So, as to the episode title and all of the nonsense that followed about “Risking Arrest”? Not so much. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Jazzhands
Because pronouns need clear antecedents.

[Onceafan]

3 hours ago, Brutus Buckeye said:

Strange post.

Most gay men are wealthy and White, and they still fought for their rights. 

I don't agree that Most gay men are wealthy and white. Any statistics I have seen do not show that at all.

2 hours ago, trimthatfat said:

I found the Browns to be incredibly irritating this episode. If they were going to be arrested, it would have happened years ago. The government truly does not care about people like the Browns. The fear they stirred up in the kids was unacceptable. I also took offense to Christine blaming the government for why Paedon was so depressed for so long. He was depressed because his parents pulled him away from the only friends and life he had ever known at a very vulnerable age. He was depressed because he was going to be put in a new environment with new people and had no support. He was depressed because his entire breakdown was captured on camera. So yeah, Christine and Kody need to take responsibility for that. 

I see Kody's complaints and I'm sorry, I just don't care. I really don't. He is also more free than he realizes. I am a Black woman in the US whose country was referred to as a shithole by the President. I just can't begin to care about a wealthy White man who has 'freedom' written on his furrowed forehead.

I watched this episode with my friend, who is African American, and she kept screaming at the television with everything Kody kept saying, about being a second class citizen. She also was really offended when Robyn stated she told her son, that if the cops show up to run and hide. She pointed out to me, that as a woman of color, she can not advise her son, to run away from the cops and hide, because she would be afraid of him being shot.

[trimthatfat]

1 hour ago, dreadfulLeigh said:

Idk, Christine, if polygamy was so damn great, you wouldn’t have to make a big dill about giving a sister wife guardianship of your kids. You’d think it’d be a given.  

I was thinking this, too. Reminded me of that episode of Big Love (awesome show!) where the wives fought over who got the kids. Wouldn't the wives already have paperwork stating who would get guardianship of the kids in the event of an emergency? The way Christine acted, they had never shared such information with each other before. Or maybe this was all just a TLC plot to drum up drama.

[Brutus Buckeye]

1 hour ago, LotusFlower said:

The episode would have been so much more interesting if they presented the other side to the polygamy argument.  All we heard was child abuse (!) from Kody Luther King, Jr., but there’s so much more to it.  I noticed how Kody kept saying the Utah Attorney General “appealled” the first case, but then the Supreme Court decided not to hear it, so the case was over.  Yes, but why did they lose the appeal?  Why did the state of Utah win?  That would have been interesting to hear, instead of everyone blathering on and on about their civil rights being violated.

All you get is the other side of the argument everywhere else you look. 

It is a treat to get the polygamists' side for a change.

[Kohola3]

They should change the name of this episode to "Risking Nothing, Accomplishing Nothing Except Boring Viewers to Death".

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Galloway Cave said:

Huh. The plyg patriarch in my town was the mayor for a while.

The first part is untrue. And they are STILL fighting for their rights.

I had a lot of respect for Joe Darger in that moment. He understands that the law is about the spiritual marriages of the very young girls (ie. abusing the young girls) and how Kody was basically continuing, in that moment, abuse towards women who have experienced it. It also tells me that Kody has no respect for women's voices when they are different from his. Makes me wonder what really goes on behind closed Brown doors..... 

I also found it absolutely ridiculous that this huge family has waited this long to have a durable power of attorney. It shows how stupid they are. They should have had that in place the moment they became plural and started shooting out a million kids. If they were really Truly worried about going to jail any time they went to Utah (since they travel there ALL THE TIME) they should have had one in place.

Finally, I don't think people attended their rally because people, even plygs, just don't care. No one is being arrested for the sole count of bigamy in Utah. They are rarely being arrested for the additional charges. They are being left alone to live their lives. Plyg familys are out, they are on TV, they are activists, they go about their lives like others. Yeah, some are harassed or stared at, some kids in school are picked on (like any kid in school is picked on for any given reason). Some, like Christine, live in their head like it was 1953 Short Crick. But others, like my town, don't give a shit. And good for them. 

And they have the right to fight to reduce or eliminate the stigma. The ones who are bold enough to do so, even if it is only for their 15 minutes of fame. With all due respect, I think it's quite short-sighted to say "that doesn't happen to all plyg families" or "that doesn't happen in my town." It has happened and does happen, even in this very forum. 

[Onceafan]

I found Kody Brown to be very unlikable in this episode. Surprisingly Joe Darger (I think that was his name) showed a much more thoughtful and balanced way of thinking. 

Kody: This woman's march sounds too political. They already have their rights, there is no need women or the LGBT to do a march.

Joe: Let's be honest we haven't been very supportive of blacks, LGBT, and Immigration. We need to change that. We can still differ but fight for their rights as well.

Kody: I just wanted those women to go away and shut up.

Joe: By silencing them you are perpetuating the abuse done to them. 

Kody: The LGBT already has all their rights.

Mariah: We are still being discriminated against. 

And the most dangerous way of thinking is when Kody was speaking about the legislators of Utah, and he made the comment "They" the legislators created these people (referred to pedophiles, perverts, and Medicaid fraud) due to the dark blanket of secrecy. 

Really think about what Kody is saying, go back and watch it, it's 12 minutes into the show. He really stated that the legislators created pedophiles and perverts in the polygamous culture by putting a dark blanket of secrecy on polygamy. 

Kody has a very dangerous way of thinking. I'm very glad that Joe was leading that march, and not Kody Brown. 

[Brutus Buckeye]

59 minutes ago, Onceafan said:

I don't agree that Most gay men are wealthy and white. Any statistics I have seen do not show that at all.

I watched this episode with my friend, who is African American, and she kept screaming at the television with everything Kody kept saying, about being a second class citizen. She also was really offended when Robyn stated she told her son, that if the cops show up to run and hide. She pointed out to me, that as a woman of color, she can not advise her son, to run away from the cops and hide, because she would be afraid of him being shot.

There are a lot more wealthy white gay men than wealthy white polygamists.

In fact the stereotype for gay men is a well to do white couple living in a fancy home that is lavishly decorated. 

The stereotype for polygamists is a bunch of hillbillies living in some dusty old shabby compound consisting of shacks and trailers.

Besides, what difference does it make? If we are going to dismiss the grievances of any group just because you can come up with a single example of a family that was able to succeed in spite of their situation, then no one would have a legit gripe. 

Hell the 0bamas spent eight years in the White House. Doesn't mean that all black people have it that great. 

[mytmo]

2 hours ago, islandgal140 said:

At the heart of FLDS polygamy, there is just a lot of sexism, female exploitation and fuckbois wanting a Frito lay variety pack of pussy all not only sanctioned but required by God.. 

I almost spit out my pretzels after reading this line.

Maybe because I've been watching too much WACO stuff where these goofball parents gave permission for David Koresh to marry their 14 yr old daughter that I can't see how legalizing Polygamy would not stop some other dictator saying God told him to marry multiple child brides.  In Texas at that time it was legal for someone to marry a 14 yr old with the brides' parents permission.  I know not every Polygamist man thinks they are the Messiah but they seem to think they are God's gift and women sadly are just considered as property.  Sorry I don't see the liberated woman here despite what the Brown women are trying to portray.

[Adeejay]

When the teens were on the couch discussing the march, someone said, “our parents could be arrested” and Paedon responded, “is that really a thing?”  Clearly, he doesn’t buy what his parents have been selling all these years. 

I found it interesting that Janelle made accommodations for her two youngest to stay in Vegas with someone other than Robyn, her sister wife. 

[Jazzhands]

48 minutes ago, Brutus Buckeye said:

There are a lot more wealthy white gay men than wealthy white polygamists.

In fact the stereotype for gay men is a well to do white couple living in a fancy home that is lavishly decorated. 

The stereotype for polygamists is a bunch of hillbillies living in some dusty old shabby compound consisting of shacks and trailers.

Besides, what difference does it make? If we are going to dismiss the grievances of any group just because you can come up with a single example of a family that was able to succeed in spite of their situation, then no one would have a legit gripe. 

Hell the 0bamas spent eight years in the White House. Doesn't mean that all black people have it that great. 

Stereotypes are not statistics. 

[laurakaye]

17 hours ago, Granny58 said:

I moved a lot as a kid and it was fine.  Its not that they moved that destroyed Paedon...it's that he didn't have time to process it.  Utah didn't hurt him...his parents did that

I wish I could like this 146575748323 times.

 

16 hours ago, ThinkerBell said:

. . . along with a Warren Jeffs pinata and cake.

Did anyone catch the horrifying documentary on A&E about Warren Jeffs?  That man was the devil.  His voice was the stuff of nightmares.  It sent literal shivers down my spine.

 

4 hours ago, AZChristian said:

OK.  It's Monday and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet.  Can someone explain to me in easy-to-understand words just WHAT Robyn hasn't been able to be open about before joining the Brown family?  Her first marriage was monogamous.

Nooooo....didn't you see the episode with the lovely portrait of Kody and her young 'uns?  Robyn has been spiritually married to Kody since Day One.  She has always been part of the Brown fam'ly.  Just ask her.  (But I did appreciate the actual, non-snarky explanation posted somewhere in this thread).

 

I can't believe I paid $24.99 for this season............

[jacksgirl]

Very live and let live here. My biggest complaint about the Kody Brown family is that I don't think half of them are very happy. Meri is miserable and Jennelle misses her career. Not sure about Christine and Robun. And Kody? Who knows or cares. He is a total fame whore. Waiting for the TLC gravy train to start pulling away. I'm much happier with my one hubby and 2 kids.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Onceafan said:

Kody has a very dangerous way of thinking. I'm very glad that Joe was leading that march, and not Kody Brown. 

But what also happened in those cases you mentioned was that Kody admitted his way of thinking was wrong. I think that shows SOME room for growth. Not everyone is willing to admit, on national TV no less, that they erred in their initial judgment of the situation. Kody is still a perfect ass a lot of the time, but I do think he is open to changing his mind. 

 

16 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

Very live and let live here. My biggest complaint about the Kody Brown family is that I don't think half of them are very happy. Meri is miserable and Jennelle misses her career. Not sure about Christine and Robun. And Kody? Who knows or cares. He is a total fame whore. Waiting for the TLC gravy train to start pulling away. I'm much happier with my one hubby and 2 kids.

But I know so many monogamist couples with a small number of kids who are unhappy. And I think some of the Brown adults ARE happy in certain ways. The children seem mostly happy and well adjusted. I think they struggle with their relationships, but don't most people? Humans are messy. I could never share my husband, but I don't think their happiness is the issue. If they want to pursue this lifestyle, they should be allowed to do so. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

It is a treat to get the polygamists' side for a change.

Wait, what?  At what point in any season were we not "getting the polygamist side"?  At what point, in any season have we heard any opposing arguments except when Kolleen came to visit and brought the horror stories that represent the majority of polygamy families (see Warren Jeffs and his hordes of followers).  We have certainly never been offered the opportunity to hear any arguments against polygamy from the government.  We've only heard BS fabricated to fit the occasion ("Run, run, I hear a siren  - oops it was actually a fire truck but never mind,; we need to flee in the night because that's the story line for this episode.")

All we hear is the sunshine and rainbows words of a group of people who are so patently miserable that they are a commercial for not practicing polygamy.

[LotusFlower]

1 hour ago, Brutus Buckeye said:

All you get is the other side of the argument everywhere else you look. 

It is a treat to get the polygamists' side for a change.

I don’t agree.  From the anti-polygamy side, I learn some things from reading this forum, but otherwise, I don’t hear a lot.  From the pro-polygamy side, the Browns, while pretending to be so open, present a very fake, manufactured, dishonest, and selective picture to the tv audience, and keep a lot of polygamy truths hidden.

[ginger90]

[Kohola3]

Quote

 

Kody: I just wanted those women to go away and shut up.

Joe: By silencing them you are perpetuating the abuse done to them. 

 

20 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

But what also happened in those cases you mentioned was that Kody admitted his way of thinking was wrong. I think that shows SOME room for growth.

Oh, yeah, Kodoofus is really showing his maturity and growth here.  Asshole.

[maggiegil]

Robyn's plea to the authorities to come into the "functional" polygamist communities and talk to the wives, children etc, see how happy they are that they love their life etc and are scared of the authorities themselves but love the lifestyle and take them at their word that everything is hunky dory is absolutely ridiculous.

Look at all the interviews with people in fundamental sects like Warren Jeffs and what a rosy picture they portrayed until everything was found out. You can't take people in abusive relationships/cults/crazy skewed power dynamics at their word because of what has been done to them.

If it was only adults of legal age who had autonomy over their decisions making a choice to live this lifestyle then it would be one thing but there are always children involved and you have to legislate for the tough cases

[Brutus Buckeye]

45 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

 

Did anyone catch the horrifying documentary on A&E about Warren Jeffs?  That man was the devil.  His voice was the stuff of nightmares.  It sent literal shivers down my spine.

..

 

Heh. There are dozens of his sermons on you tube. 

They make a terrific sleep aid. 

[UsernameFatigue]

Eh. 

I live in a province with a very active polygamist sect. Two of the "religious leaders" were convicted last year of practicing polygamy. One had 27 wives and over 145 children. It was ruled that their right to practice polygamy was not more important than what members of the sect endure, including physical and sexual assault, child brides, subjugation of women and expulsion of young men (so called lost boys) because there are no women left for them to marry. Members of the sect were also convicted in 2016 of trafficking child brides as young as 12 and 13 into the states for members there to marry. I believe three, ages 12 and 13 were given to Warren Jeffs to marry around 2004. He said it was his job to protect them from having to worry about boys and their teenage years, and that basically he would be their boy toy and relieve them of that problem. I kid you not. 

So Kody, cry me a river. You are obviously not the polyg that lawmakers are still protecting women and children from. 

I do find it interesting that none of Kody's children are interested in the polyg lifestyle. I think someone may have mentioned that Aspyn's boyfriend is from their church, but not sure that that translates to accepting the lifestyle since all of the Kodsters kids would have attended the same church, until they didn't. However I do think that even without the horrific lifestyle that many women and children endure in the name of polygamy, Kody's spawn themselves have seen that having multiple wives, and sister wives is not all that great. They would have seen their father as a part time father and husband, and their mother go through a continual roller coaster of who is the favourite wife at any given time, not to mention the ongoing jealousies related to having multiple sister wives. Has anyone here who watches the show ever thought "Gee, I would love to live that lifestyle"?  Me neither. 

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Adeejay said:

When the teens were on the couch discussing the march, someone said, “our parents could be arrested” and Paedon responded, “is that really a thing?”  Clearly, he doesn’t buy what his parents have been selling all these years. 

And one of the other older kids replied "the adults believe that it is". 

It's a good thing that the kids don't feel as threatened as the adults do. The parents lived with the fear, or were very close to people who lived with it. The kids perhaps have not experienced living with that kind of unrest, despite the "fleeing to Las Vegas" dramatics.

Seeking Sister Wife is doing the "We need to get out of Dodge" storyline with the Brineys. They are playing up the fear just like the Browns did. I certainly believe that it is exaggerated for the show, but I have to say, if I was part of a plyg family in Utah and it was at all possible, I would probably want to leave that state as well. 

[Galloway Cave]

43 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I live in a province with a very active polygamist sect.

They are a twisted bunch of people up there. 

50 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

So Kody, cry me a river. You are obviously not the polyg that lawmakers are still protecting women and children from.

The AG and lawmakers have said repeatedly the good families will not be affected. They have not arrested anyone for bigamy in recent years. I understand the protest and all, but why not work WITH the lawmakers to assure the "good families" are not affected by the Utah law, since it isn't going away?

48 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

And one of the other older kids replied "the adults believe that it is". 

The kids have routinely said they don't believe what the adults say. Your comment kind of says that too. They learned a long time ago their parents are drama queens and bullshit artists.

[Gothish520]

1 minute ago, Galloway Cave said:

The kids have routinely said they don't believe what the adults say. Your comment kind of says that too. They learned a long time ago their parents are drama queens and bullshit artists.

I do agree with that. Although I think Christine is still troubled by past fears and persecution, more than even Robyn. And that's probably why it was concerning to her that Paedon didn't want to go.

I still give credit to Paedon for standing up for his feelings, and the mother/son hug was sweet. These kids are no dummies. They are intelligent and well-spoken, and I think they know they are loved, even if the parents act selfish and controlling at times.

[Kohola3]

25 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

Although I think Christine is still troubled by past fears and persecution, more than even Robyn.

Well, Christine thinks toasters are lethal so....

[DakotaJustice]

6 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

 

 

SO, what IS Strive with Janelle? Doesn't look like an exercise plan. 

We've been trying to figure that out for two years!

[Gothish520]

47 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Well, Christine thinks toasters are lethal so....

LOL! A month ago I wouldn't have known what you were talking about, but I finally watched the first episode (I haven't seen all of the first season). 

I'm going to confess that back when microwaves first became popular, I refused to use the one my parents bought - I was sure it was going to poison us with radiation!  :P

[Sandy W]

20 hours ago, LucyEth said:

I hope Christine doesn't start singing!

I was a little concerned when Joe Darger, at the rally before the march, was trying to promote them singing a song as they marched.

I had visions of Christine bursting into song and trilling away...We Shall Overcome, as they marched.

[AmandaUnbidden]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion but I don't agree with the thought that the Browns knew they were in no danger of being arrested when they fled UT for Vegas. The Browns are not that good of actors to fake the looks of fear on their faces or the tears cried. Also, the Browns fall short in a lot of places, and I would definitely not want to be married to any one of them, but they seem to be good parents. Their children have turned out healthy and happy for the most part. The Brown parents don't pressure them to live polygamy, and even though they were all raised in very conservative homes, they embraced Mariah and her sexuality with no hesitation. So with all that said, I just don't see them disrupting their children's lives and causing them that fear and hurt unless they truly believed they were in danger. 

 

As far as the laws targeting polygamists in UT, and even strengthening their laws against them, I don't think that is right or constitutional. And I don't know about you guys, but I would not want my freedom left in the hands of the current powers that be. Sure they put out a statement that they wouldn't actually prosecute unless these other crimes are committed alongside the polygamy but those are just empty words. What matters is the laws on the books and as long as those laws are in place, then yes, a polygamist family living in UT could be prosecuted if someone felt like doing it. That's not okay, and I would not want to live with that kind fear daily.

 

I also agree with the Browns that keeping polygamy illegal does help hide the abuses that go on in some of these homes. If the children and wives in these homes learn from a young age to be fearful of law enforcement then they will not speak up if their being abused and definitely won't seek help from said law enforcement. 

 

Also, I think it should be noted that  they aren't committing bigamy and are not fighting to legalize that. That would be a logistical nightmare. They just want the legal right to live with who they want, call that person what they want, and raise their family how they want as long as no crimes are committed, i.e. child/domestic abuse. 

 

Now, do I think polygamy is a good thing? No, or at least, not in most circumstances. Do I think the Browns have shown us how happy polygamy makes them? Absolutely not. I'm not blind. lol If my child or someone I loved was thinking of living polygamy, I would work long and hard to get them to reconsider, maybe even showing them the sister wives and seeking sister wives shows. So while I don't agree with their religion or the practice of polygamy, I do think that legally they should be able to live this way if that is their desire and they are all consenting adults. 

 

I also wanted to touch on the fear they felt coming out on TLC for the first time. I'm not sure they really lost their jobs over it but they might have. I do think their fear was real though. I'm sure the powers that be in Utah are mostly mainstream LDS. They want the rest of the world to forget that their religion ever practiced polygamy. They know there are plenty of families like the Browns living their lifestyle in "secret", and that's how they want to keep it. With the Browns coming out so publicly and directly stating that they are just following the original Mormon religion and just doing exactly as their forefathers directed that they might have made a lot of enemies. I could see how what their doing could piss the wrong people off. So I do think their fear was real and valid, at least in their own minds.

 

 I just don't think the Browns and families like theirs should be treated as criminals or have the threat of being arrested looming over them just for living as a plural family. It shouldn't be the government's business who we sleep with or live with or what we call that person unless of course there are actual crimes being committed, like forcing someone to live with you against their will or marrying someone underage. But there are already laws against those two things. There is no reason to add another law against polygamy just because you don't like it. 

 

Just my views on the issue. I will say this episode was kind of boring for me, maybe because we've been though all this so it didn't need to be rehashed yet again. They could have touched on the March and what they were doing along with another storyline. I don't think a whole two hours needed to be dedicated to this.

[kicotan]

7 minutes ago, AmandaUnbidden said:

I just don't think the Browns and families like theirs should be treated as criminals or have the threat of being arrested looming over them just for living as a plural family. It shouldn't be the government's business who we sleep with or live with or what we call that person unless of course there are actual crimes being committed, like forcing someone to live with you against their will or marrying someone underage. But there are already laws against those two things. There is no reason to add another law against polygamy just because you don't like it. 

Amen.

Polygamy isn't for me, but neither is a lot of stuff that passes for socially acceptable.  I think the original LDS got pressured by the Feds to give it up, under threat of having to forfeit their assets and not be given the status of a recognized religion.  In return, Utah got statehood and they could enjoy their religious status and considerable church assets.  That's blackmail, not the come to Jesus revelation moment that the LDS purport is the reason they gave up polygamy in this life. 

[Sammich]

4 hours ago, Adeejay said:

When the teens were on the couch discussing the march, someone said, “our parents could be arrested” and Paedon responded, “is that really a thing?”  Clearly, he doesn’t buy what his parents have been selling all these years. 

I found it interesting that Janelle made accommodations for her two youngest to stay in Vegas with someone other than Robyn, her sister wife. 

Are we sure that Savannah and Gabriel didn’t stay with Robyn?  I noticed Truely was with Christine. I don’t know if any of the younger kids (Aurora, Breanna, Ysabel or Gwendlyn) were at the march. I watch this show in spurts, but I haven’t seen Gabriel once this year. Has he been shown at all? 

cedb

[SunnyBeBe]

I agree about the Browns and how they must certainly do and did have a valid fear of prosecution.  Just because a law is little known, doesn't mean it can't be used to bite you, if a zealous prosecutor gets you on his naughty list.  And for poly families who go on tv,....well, that might be considered a challenge.  I bet they would get or did get phone calls from concerned citizens who want to know WHY aren't you charging these people on tv with a crime. That's not a good position to be in, because the public votes for the District Attorney and if the public isn't happy, because he's not prosecuting Kody Brown and wives, he could fail to get re-elected.  So, there are valid reasons they would get singled out and charged.  

In my state, fornication and adultery were and possibly are still illegal.  A lady was actually charged with it by her employer, the sheriff, because he wanted her to get married to the guy she was living with.  The judge ruled the law unconstitutional, but, it hasn't been challenged with any appeals.  The NC legislature has not taken action and it's been since 2006.  I see nothing preventing someone else from being charged, because one judge doesn't set the law. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nc-cohabitation-law-struck-down/

http://codes.findlaw.com/nc/chapter-14-criminal-law/nc-gen-st-sect-14-184.html

https://www.freep.com/story/life/family/2014/04/17/in-which-states-is-cheating-on-your-spouse-illegal/28936155/

So, it doesn't matter if people are charged with the crime very often, the issue is that they COULD be charged if the people in charge feel like it.  I wouldn't want to live that way.  ALTHOUGH, I'm not so sure that I support decriminalizing it. I'm on the fence. I think both sides of the issue have compelling arguments. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[giaNtsandYankees]

3 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Eh. 

I live in a province with a very active polygamist sect. Two of the "religious leaders" were convicted last year of practicing polygamy. One had 27 wives and over 145 children. It was ruled that their right to practice polygamy was not more important than what members of the sect endure, including physical and sexual assault, child brides, subjugation of women and expulsion of young men (so called lost boys) because there are no women left for them to marry. Members of the sect were also convicted in 2016 of trafficking child brides as young as 12 and 13 into the states for members there to marry. I believe three, ages 12 and 13 were given to Warren Jeffs to marry around 2004. He said it was his job to protect them from having to worry about boys and their teenage years, and that basically he would be their boy toy and relieve them of that problem. I kid you not. 

So Kody, cry me a river. You are obviously not the polyg that lawmakers are still protecting women and children from. 

I do find it interesting that none of Kody's children are interested in the polyg lifestyle. I think someone may have mentioned that Aspyn's boyfriend is from their church, but not sure that that translates to accepting the lifestyle since all of the Kodsters kids would have attended the same church, until they didn't. However I do think that even without the horrific lifestyle that many women and children endure in the name of polygamy, Kody's spawn themselves have seen that having multiple wives, and sister wives is not all that great. They would have seen their father as a part time father and husband, and their mother go through a continual roller coaster of who is the favourite wife at any given time, not to mention the ongoing jealousies related to having multiple sister wives. Has anyone here who watches the show ever thought "Gee, I would love to live that lifestyle"?  Me neither. 

You wouldn't happen to live near Bountiful, British Columbia would you? That "sect leader" sounds very familiar.

[Otter]

Addressing the "fear" -- I'm almost 65 and the fear of being nuked by the USSR over 50 years ago is still part of my psyche.  I did the "duck and cover" drills and had neighbors with bomb shelters.  Probably indoctrinated in that fear from kindergarten, but it went on for years.  So the sister wives who grew up in polygamous families surely have&E been indoctrinated into that fear mentality as I was as a child.  

I watched that A&E doc on Jeffs and had completely forgotten about the raids -- many years apart but with the same optics.  Screaming children and mothers forcibly separated.  If I had been raised in polygamy, I would have that fear too.  How could you not?  

Full disclosure -- haven't watched the episode but I will this week even if it's the snoozefest for the most part as described.  

[Libby]

I will say that from the outside looking in, to me the sister wives appear to be in an intolerable situation.

However, they stayed. A lot of people think that they stay for the TLC money, yet three stayed while they were very poor.

Who knows why people remain in situations that appear awful to outsiders? It happens everyday. I think that all consenting adults have the right to decide what works for them and their decision should be respected.

[UsernameFatigue]

47 minutes ago, giaNtsandYankees said:

You wouldn't happen to live near Bountiful, British Columbia would you? That "sect leader" sounds very familiar.

I live in the same province, but several hours away from Bountiful. But yes, that is the sect I am referring to. 

[Lynn]

Kody and Christine sure are having a resurgence of the love.  He complimented her appearance and later hugged her while she was crying, and she called him Love when saying goodbye.

[giaNtsandYankees]

ou

On 2/26/2018 at 11:02 AM, Onceafan said:

Really think about what Kody is saying, go back and watch it, it's 12 minutes into the show. He really stated that the legislators created pedophiles and perverts in the polygamous culture by putting a dark blanket of secrecy on polygamy. 

Kody has a very dangerous way of thinking. I'm very glad that Joe was leading that march, and not Kody Brown. 

I watched that episode this morning while on my bus commute to work this morning. I flinched when Kody made that statement.

It was actually started with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. While in this late thirties, he married and slept with fourteen year old girls, claiming that God commanded for those actions to take place. He slept with many women that were not his wife, and passed it off as polygamy as a way to justify this actions.

Brigham Young also married teenagers. I believe some of his wives were as young as fifteen (when he was forty-two).

ETA: I understand that the age of consent was lower than it is today, and some girls married in their early teens (but I'm sure their husbands were younger than Smith and Young when they married teenaged girls. I apologize for anyone that I may have offended. I was just trying to make a point that some of the fundamentalist Mormon men are pedophiles because of how they closely follow Smith and Yong's actions. And I will admit, the age difference between Young, Smith and their teenaged wives does disturb me. That's just me though. Again, I didn't meant to offend anymore, or come off as close-minded or intolerant.

This is probably why you have men in the FLDS, The LeBaron Group, the Kingston Group and creepers like Tom Green marrying fourteen year olds because it began with Smith and Young. (I've also read that Brigham Young had done evil things to his wives. I'll have to find the source.) Flora Jessop (former FLDS member) even said in an interview that "if you want to see what pure and original Mormonism is, look at Warren Jeffs." Other former FLDS members (the surname of one of them being Mackert. His first name escapes me) said that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had done the same thing was Jeffs, but to worse degree.

So no Kody Brown, the legislators did not create pedophiles and perverts. It began with your "gods" Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Do your research!
 

Edited February 28, 2018 by giaNtsandYankees

[Adeejay]

1 hour ago, Sammich said:

Are we sure that Savannah and Gabriel didn’t stay with Robyn?  I noticed Truely was with Christine. I don’t know if any of the younger kids (Aurora, Breanna, Ysabel or Gwendlyn) were at the march.

Believe me if Gabriel and Savannah were at Robyn’s, it would have been a huge deal.  We would have been treated to a sermon about what it means to be a sister wife and how the wives look after each other’s kids.  Besides, Janelle made the announcement before we learned that Robyn wasn’t going to the march.    

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Sammich said:

Are we sure that Savannah and Gabriel didn’t stay with Robyn?  I noticed Truely was with Christine. I don’t know if any of the younger kids (Aurora, Breanna, Ysabel or Gwendlyn) were at the march. I watch this show in spurts, but I haven’t seen Gabriel once this year. Has he been shown at all? 

cedb

Ysabel, Gwen, Aspyn, Truely, Maddie,  Caleb, Logan, Dayton, Mariah, and Mariah's girlfriend Audrey were all there. 

Also, Robyn stated that Dayton was the only one she allowed to make the choice to go or not. Sounds like she didn't let Aurora or Brianna go.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Gothish520

[kicotan]

22 minutes ago, giaNtsandYankees said:

 

It was actually started with Horny Joe (Joseph Smith) and Breed'em Young (Brigham Young). While in this thirties, he married and slept with fourteen year old girls, claiming that God commanded for those unions to take place. He slept with many women that were not his wife, and passed it off as polygamy as a way to justify this actions.

Brigham Young also married teenagers. I believe some of his wives were as young as fifteen.

 

It wasn't an unusual practice in his time.  Consider the year it was.  Brigham Young died in 1877.  The State of Pennsylvania and the Catholic Church sanctioned the marriage of my husband's maternal grandparents in 1923 and the bride had just turned 13 the month before the wedding.  They were immigrants from Sicily and no one batted an eye.

I know it sounds appalling going by today's standards, but to compare it to today's social construct is incongruent and possibly disingenuous.

Edited February 27, 2018 by kicotan

[VedaPierce]

So glad Paedon said a big fat NO to going on this idiotic march. Those fuckers broke that poor boys' heart on tv and ripped him away from everything he loved for a tv story line. and now that he's 18, they can't order him around and make him jump through Kody's hoops. Good. Fuck you, kody, and fuck your stupid march. 

[SkippyBeef]

13 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

Team Paedon. 

Paedon was my favorite part of this episode. Very genuine, a breath of fresh air.