S01.E08: Psychopathia Sexualis

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, WhatsUpDummy said:

I'm so sad about poor Mary, she deserved so much better :(  I knew someone was going over the edge, I was just hoping it would be Connor.  I'm a little confused.  Didn't Connor know that Laszlo and John were out travelling? I thought that was what he was discussing with the ex Chief.  I thought Connor knew that the Doc was out so I was confused as to why he showed up at his house.  I hope Cyrus and the kid are alright as well, just knocked out, nothing else.  This episode threw me for a loop.  

Yes me too. Plus they are witnesses... which probably doesn't bode well for either of them. 

[Neurochick]

8 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Yes me too. Plus they are witnesses... which probably doesn't bode well for either of them. 

I don't think it would matter either way.  Cyrus is a black man with a past, Stevie is a street kid and Connor is a straight white male.  

[libgirl2]

14 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I don't think it would matter either way.  Cyrus is a black man with a past, Stevie is a street kid and Connor is a straight white male.  

Yes, no one will believe them but Moore, Kreizler and Sarah would. 

[Reality police]

43 minutes ago, WhatsUpDummy said:

I'm so sad about poor Mary, she deserved so much better :(  I knew someone was going over the edge, I was just hoping it would be Connor.  I'm a little confused.  Didn't Connor know that Laszlo and John were out travelling? I thought that was what he was discussing with the ex Chief.  I thought Connor knew that the Doc was out so I was confused as to why he showed up at his house.  I hope Cyrus and the kid are alright as well, just knocked out, nothing else.  This episode threw me for a loop.  

They had left DC and Connor thought they should be home. He didn't know they had decided to go to Newton.

I hope Connor dies a long, slow, excruciating death.

[thuganomics85]

Well, shit.  I knew seeing all the happiness with Laszlo and Mary meant something bad was going to happen, but I didn't predict it being Mary getting killed by Connor during a failed raid/assassination attempt.  Really wish she just ran out when Curtis gave her the chance, but I guess she is just someone who rather fight then flee.  Will really miss the character and Q'orianka Kilcher's performance (I liked that the first sound she ever made on this show was her brief laugh when Curtis was joking that she wouldn't want her room back anymore), but I can at least take solace that a) Byrnes/Ted Levine is probably not going to be happy about more bodies and could likely decided Connor isn't worth protecting and b) Captain America: Civil War showed the depths Daniel Bruhl will go to in order avenged those he loves!

Other then that, I enjoyed Laszlo and John pairing off again, and the chemistry between Bruhl and Luke Evans.  I really buy their friendship despite being so different in almost every way.  And, of course, Sara off on her own, but still being just as awesome.  Really seems like they are zoning in on the killer, but at with what feels like almost the entire police force against him, I wonder how they will get out of this.

Knowing what happens in history, it was hilarious watching J.P. Morgan "warning" Theodore freaking Roosevelt that he could lose everything.

Loved seeing both Sean Bridges (Sheriff Early) and David Meunier (Adam Dury) show up for some scenes.

Good episode, but that ending certainly was a downer.  I do hope this gets Q'orianka Kilcher more recognition going forward, because she really was impressive here.

Edited March 14, 2018 by thuganomics85

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, raven said:

For sure, Mary was PISSED at these thugs in the house.  She was a fighter, it is just too damn bad Conner proved a little too much for her.  She almost took him down.

Connor's rapid devolution into a murdering thug has been....startling, I guess is the word. As someone said last week, he's always come off as brutish, greedy and even a little stupid, but he's committed two murders now and has gotten away with at least one. I want him to get what he deserves.

[Morrigan2575]

Those bastards all need to die! Poor Mary ?

I'm glad I watched it this afternoon, if I had watched it last night I wouldn't have been able to sleep.

Up until the last few minutes I was thinking this was a great episode with some nice movement in identifying our killer and his motivations.

However, the last few minutes are just so devastating and rage inducing I can't think of anything else. ?

[pezgirl7]

Do we know who the guy is that followed John and Laszlo and shot at them, and who he's working for? Was it the same guy that drugged John and helped bring him to JP Morgan's place? And was he trying to kill them or just scare them?

[libgirl2]

50 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

Knowing what happens in history, it was hilarious watching J.P. Morgan "warning" Theodore freaking Roosevelt that he could lose everything.

 

I agree it is funny. If he were any other person you would say, wow his career will be over. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by libgirl2

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, pezgirl7 said:

Do we know who the guy is that followed John and Laszlo and shot at them, and who he's working for? Was it the same guy that drugged John and helped bring him to JP Morgan's place? And was he trying to kill them or just scare them?

Although I don’t recall hearing him utter a word yet, I’m pretty sure he’s the Swede that Connor mentioned to Byrne or Morgan earlier in the episode so I’m assuming the Swede works for Connor/Byrne/Morgan. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[sjohnson]

Re the unbelievability of Connor's mad dog tendencies...I don't know about the book but it appears Connor is the unmasked Kreizler.  Kreizler is in charge of the pursuit, officially, suppressing Howard,, and Connor was in charge of the coverup, sexually abusing Howard. Howard displaces Kreizler as the true leader, Connor is fired. Kreizler poses as a friend to the alienated and outcast to control them (as Cyrus' daughter told us,) Connor murders Van Bergen. Kreizler reaps the reward of years of grooming and rapes Mary, Connor kills her. Connor doesn't act like a real person might, he performs as a symbol of Kreizler's true self. He's Kreizler's id, displaced into a superficially separate person.This might seem a little odd at first, but much of the series so far has been about exposing the awfulness of Kreizler, who is in dramatic terms the undetected villain of the series.

Edited March 13, 2018 by sjohnson

[raven]

5 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Kreizler poses as a friend to the alienated and outcast to control them (as Cyrus' daughter told us,) Connor murders Van Bergen. Kreizler reaps the reward of years of grooming and rapes Mary, Connor kills her.

Interesting perspective.  I don't agree that Kreizler seeks to control the alienated, no matter what Cyrus's niece said.  I also don't agree that Kreizler groomed and raped Mary, or that he is the villain.

Kreizler is a scientist IMO, typical in a Sherlock Holmes sort of way.  I don't think he seeks to control, though he is clueless at times, though not willfully blind, to the privileges his status affords him.  Slapping Sara is inexcusable and there should be some fallout from that.

Conner is a thug of a type that was common in the corrupt police force that Roosevelt was trying to reform - ignoring crimes against the "undesirables", taking bribes, etc.  His boss Byrnes came up with the term "the third degree".  It's not a great leap that Conner would kill either in a violent accident that he caused or that he would kill intentionally; especially because he blames Roosevelt and the Sara/Kreizler/Moore team for the loss of his job.

[Pachengala]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Although I don’t recall hearing him utter a word yet, I’m pretty sure he’s the Swede that Connor mentioned to Byrne or Morgan earlier in the episode so I’m assuming the Swede works for Connor/Byrne/Morgan. 

This was my take too, though that leaves the question, why would Connor et al come looking for Kreisler? As far as he knows at this point, Kreizler’s dead.

[88Keys]

Kriezler didn't rape Mary.  Come on.  It's not like she is some weak, helpless victim.  She's shown herself to be plenty capable and could easily have rejected him on her own.  

[Neurochick]

I don't think Kriezler raped Mary, but I do get how someone might feel that way, especially with the knowledge that we have today.  Today it would not be cool for a therapist to be in a relationship with a patient, especially one who lives and works in his home.  So that's an interesting perspective.

I feel this show is showcasing class-ism.  When Byrnes and Conner were talking in the tavern, Byrnes said that the wealthy look down on them, the cops, but need their protection from "the great unwashed."  I think part of Connor and Byrnes' anger is that Kriezler, John and Sara are part of the upper class.  Byrnes and Connor are probably first or second generation Irish immigrants.  I used to watch a show on BBC America called "Copper."  That show took place in NYC but thirty plus years before The Alienist.  At that time the rank and file police didn't like the Irish, didn't want them to be police officers, called them "Boy-o."  

So Connor looks at our heroes and thinks, "why are they doing MY job?  I have to stop them.  They're nothing but a bunch of privileged folk playing detective."  I mean think about all the resources and capital that Kriezler and company have taken advantage of including Roosevelt, who went to Harvard with John and Kriezler.  

[bosawks]

John and Sarah have their work cut out for them in solving the crime and pulling Kriezler out of his despair.

And based on how creepy the silver smile was what do they have in store for this facial tic.

[tennisgurl]

Conner is clearly devolving quickly, going from a pretty standard jerk of his time, to a full fledged monster who is lashing out at anyone and everything with the only thing he knows, violence. He feels pushed around by the upper class, but also feels more important and powerful than the "unwashed masses" that he polices. You can see him justifying his crimes in a "for the greater good" ways, but, really, all this pressure and darkness has just amplified his worst qualities. He was always angry, greedy, bitter, and stupid, probably, but now its all being unleashed.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, raven said:

Interesting perspective.  I don't agree that Kreizler seeks to control the alienated, no matter what Cyrus's niece said.  I also don't agree that Kreizler groomed and raped Mary, or that he is the villain.

Kreizler is a scientist IMO, typical in a Sherlock Holmes sort of way.  I don't think he seeks to control, though he is clueless at times, though not willfully blind, to the privileges his status affords him.  Slapping Sara is inexcusable and there should be some fallout from that.

Conner is a thug of a type that was common in the corrupt police force that Roosevelt was trying to reform - ignoring crimes against the "undesirables", taking bribes, etc.  His boss Byrnes came up with the term "the third degree".  It's not a great leap that Conner would kill either in a violent accident that he caused or that he would kill intentionally; especially because he blames Roosevelt and the Sara/Kreizler/Moore team for the loss of his job.

Yeah, this. Kreizler's not the nicest guy; he's brusque, he's dismissive, and considering the times he's probably much more educated than fifty percent of the people in the city he lives in. He also clearly has money, since he's taken in Cyrus, Stevie and Mary (RIP) as part of his household. We still don't know what happened to his arm, since Sara asked him about it and he never answered her, but if it was an accident of some sort he's probably got emotional baggage over it.  So, yes, there's something oddly unformed there.

But he's not a thug. Connor isn't smart enough to get away with the things he's done without his badge and/or protection from upper class people like Morgan. Notice that once he's no longer a policeman and is having a beer in a tavern, the barkeep tells him it'll cost a quarter. Clearly he hadn't had to pay for his own drinks in a while, but when he tries to get indignant the bartender says, You heard me, Paddy, it's a quarter." Suddenly, he was having to eat the shit he'd been doling out on the regular because he could no longer use his badge as shield and cudgel, and for someone who doesn't know how to do anything else because he's just not that bright, he doesn't have a lot of other options. If any.

[Hazel55]

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Re the unbelievability of Connor's mad dog tendencies...I don't know about the book but it appears Connor is the unmasked Kreizler.  

 

An interesting theory; however, while they do have some parallels, I don't ultimately see Connor as "the unmasked Kreizler."

In fact, if Kreizler has a dark doppelganger on this show, I'd say that it is none other than the killer himself, John Beecham. Beecham seems to be serving as Kreitzler's Jungian "shadow side"; the writers seem to be presenting Beecham as the sort of man Kreitzler could have become under slightly different circumstances.

Both men are obsessive loners, drawn to violence and cruelty. (Kreizler in the hypothetical, intellectual sense-- he studies violence-- and Beecham in the literal sense.) Both are detached emotionally (Kreizler manipulates people, is able to place himself in the killers shoes, has no real emotional issue with cutting a dead boy "just to see how it feels;" Beecham can coldly murder and then butcher innocent boys.) Both are consumed with a well hidden anger that comes bubbling up, unbidden, sometimes. (Kreizler slapping Sarah and freaking out when challenged on his theory about the victim's mother; Beecham's murders and apparent outbursts during his military time.) Both are simultaneously detached and passionate; both are obsessive and relentless (Beecham in his murders, Kreizler in his quest to catch Beecham); both are driven very much by inner demons. IMO, these parallels are very much intentional on the writers part. 

So while there are some parallels between Connor and Kreizler (namely, I'd say, the abuse of power-- unconscious and mostly harmless on Kreilzer's part, deliberate and destructive on Connor's), ultimately, the two are very different. Connor is an unintelligent man addicted to the power that being a police officer gave him; now that he has lost that power, he is unraveling.  Kreizler, in contrast, is a brilliant man who does not seek power for itself, but sometimes attempts to dominate others emotionally because, at bottom, he is a frightened man who cannot bring himself to trust others because of a deep seeded belief in his own inadequacy. Most of all, the two are driven by very different forces: Connor is driven primarily by self interest, the horrible things he does he does to benefit himself or save his neck. Kreizler, on the other hand, is driven by his own demons, fears and inadequacies to answer certain questions about himself and human nature. 

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

. Kreizler reaps the reward of years of grooming and rapes Mary, 

 

Eh? If Kreizler and Mary did indeed have sex (which we don't know for sure), then it was clearly not rape. 

Mary is an adult woman of at least 22, she may be as old as 27 or 28. To say that she was raped because she "can't consent" because of her disability seems a bit condescending towards Mary, viewing her as a child incapable of thinking or acting for herself. 

Certainly, there are some disturbing power imbalances present in the relationship (Kreitzler was Mary's psychiatrist, Kreitzler is Mary's employer, Mary has been living with Kreitzler for years), but that doesn't make a sex act between the two automatically rape. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Hazel55
It's "Kreizler" not "Kreitzler", whoops

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's please stick to the episode; this is not the place to discuss current events or movements.

[Josette]

12 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Didn't Mary light her father on fire?  Hardly a shrinking violet.

I didn't imply she was. I just think her chasing Connor with a knife didn't make sense as depicted. In the show, no one was in immediate danger.  She was protecting...the upstairs?   In the book ...

Spoiler

She was saving Stevie.  It just made more sense.

 And made her a bit more fierce, in my opinion.

[tessathereaper]

26 minutes ago, Josette said:

I didn't imply she was. I just think her chasing Connor with a knife didn't make sense as depicted. In the show, no one was in immediate danger.  She was protecting...the upstairs?   In the book ...

  Hide contents

She was saving Stevie.  It just made more sense.

 And made her a bit more fierce, in my opinion.

Well I guess you could look at it that in the moment she didn't know what they were going to do - she could have easily feared they'd eventually work their back to hurting Stevie and Cyrus(and I think Cyrus being injured probably had something to do with it, she would have felt esp protective towards him in a way she may normally not have(not because she didn''t care him but simply because he's a strong physically healthy man under normal circumstances but he was laid up with an injury now).  We can look at it from the outside and think "just let them ransack the house, what the hell, it's not that important" but to her, as it's happening - these dangerous people are invading her home in a threatening manner, they could all be in immediate physical danger.  I do agree they could have shown her seeing Stevie or Cyrus in danger and it would have made the scene a bit stronger but I think she had reason enough to feel they were genuinely being physically threatened.

Edited March 14, 2018 by tessathereaper

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

If Kreizler and Mary did indeed have sex (which we don't know for sure), then it was clearly not rape. 

Mary is an adult woman of at least 22, she may be as old as 27 or 28. To say that she was raped because she "can't consent" because of her disability seems a bit condescending towards Mary, viewing her as a child incapable of thinking or acting for herself. 

Certainly, there are some disturbing power imbalances present in the relationship (Kreitzler was Mary's psychiatrist, Kreitzler is Mary's employer, Mary has been living with Kreitzler for years), but that doesn't make a sex act between the two automatically rape. 

ITA. Mary's disability is that she can't speak. That has nothing to do with her mental capacity or her ability to make decisions. She is an adult who has made it obvious since the first episode that she has feelings for Kriezler.

The power dynamics between them are definitely unequal, but that doesn't make her feelings for him any less real. Kriezler also admitted to John that he knows having feelings for Mary is inappropriate so he's at least aware that he needs to be careful to ensure that he is not taking advantage of his position of authority over her. I think his feelings for her are genuine and that he wants to make sure that her response is sincere and not out of obligation (partly because he is proud and wouldn't want to think that she is acting out of pity or duty).

[Quilt Fairy]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:39 PM, Neurochick said:

Japheth took the name John Beechem probably because he no longer wanted to be a victim.

Or possibly because he no longer wanted to be a 'Japheth".

[Hazel55]

32 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Or possibly because he no longer wanted to be a 'Japheth".

Yeah, naming their child "Japheth" was the final nail in the coffin of the parents horrendous treatment of their son, IMO. "So, we had this kid, who we bullied and neglected throughout the course of his childhood. And just in case that bullying, and the harassment he endured from his peers on account of his facial tic wasn't enough, we went ahead and named him JAPHETH-- just to give him that extra push that would ensure he'd grow up to be a serial killer!" 

Come to think of it, "Lazlo" is a pretty dang weird name, too....

[Haleth]

Really good episode but the whole business about Beecham (Beauchamp?) and Japheth and soldiers and Indians and rock climbing and facial tics was so rushed that it probably confused most non book readers.  Like me.

So Japheth, after being sexually assaulted by Beecham and mentally abused by his parents, killed all three, went west as a soldier using Beecham's name, and witnessed atrocities there?  His unit was called in to quell the riots in NYC and he went mad while beating a man and was sent to the hospital in DC?  Is that right?  (Or was the real Beecham the soldier?)  How did he get out of the hospital?  Did the doctor say he had been released?  What does this have to do with the silver smile, or was that just a red herring?

Oh, Mary.  :(

Edited March 14, 2018 by Haleth

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

Yeah, naming their child "Japheth" was the final nail in the coffin of the parents horrendous treatment of their son, IMO. "So, we had this kid, who we bullied and neglected throughout the course of his childhood. And just in case that bullying, and the harassment he endured from his peers on account of his facial tic wasn't enough, we went ahead and named him JAPHETH-- just to give him that extra push that would ensure he'd grow up to be a serial killer!" 

Come to think of it, "Lazlo" is a pretty dang weird name, too....

His parents were so horrible, that in this era of extreme racial prejudice, the townspeople were actually on the side of the supposed "Indians" who supposedly did the massacre.

[DkNNy79]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA. Mary's disability is that she can't speak. That has nothing to do with her mental capacity or her ability to make decisions. She is an adult who has made it obvious since the first episode that she has feelings for Kriezler.

The power dynamics between them are definitely unequal, but that doesn't make her feelings for him any less real. Kriezler also admitted to John that he knows having feelings for Mary is inappropriate so he's at least aware that he needs to be careful to ensure that he is not taking advantage of his position of authority over her. I think his feelings for her are genuine and that he wants to make sure that her response is sincere and not out of obligation (partly because he is proud and wouldn't want to think that she is acting out of pity or duty).

Agree and I think that's why he was hesitant to pursue anything with Mary even when she was giving him signs of her affection.

[88Keys]

Japeth is a Biblical name going back to the time of Noah.  It wouldn't have been seen as weird in the 1800's, although it's obviously fallen out of fashion nowadays.

[sugarbaker design]

57 minutes ago, 88Keys said:

Japeth is a Biblical name going back to the time of Noah.  It wouldn't have been seen as weird in the 1800's, although it's obviously fallen out of fashion nowadays.

I wasn't familiar with the name, before I saw it written (on this thread), I thought they were saying a variation of Jacob.  Looked it up on Wiki, Japeth was one of Noah's sons.

[proserpina65]

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

So Japheth, after being sexually assaulted by Beecham and mentally abused by his parents, killed all three, went west as a soldier using Beecham's name, and witnessed atrocities there?  His unit was called in to quell the riots in NYC and he went mad while beating a man and was sent to the hospital in DC?  Is that right?  (Or was the real Beecham the soldier?)  How did he get out of the hospital?  Did the doctor say he had been released?  What does this have to do with the silver smile, or was that just a red herring?

Japheth killed his parents and Beecham, appropriated Beecham's name to hide his identity, and joined the Army.  He actually served no farther west than Chicago, and the Haymarket riots, during which his commanding officer witnessed his perverse behavior, took place there.  The western atrocities his crimes reference were ones he saw in photographs his religious extremist parents showed children while telling them they were going to hell; presumably those atrocities depicted were ones the parents had seen while living in Minnesota before he was born.  Sounds like he really was released from the hospital in DC, but I'm not sure why, exactly.  The silver smile was a red herring, but Japheth/Beecham does have a severe facial tic.

[Haleth]

53 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Japheth killed his parents and Beecham, appropriated Beecham's name to hide his identity, and joined the Army.  He actually served no farther west than Chicago, and the Haymarket riots, during which his commanding officer witnessed his perverse behavior, took place there.  The western atrocities his crimes reference were ones he saw in photographs his religious extremist parents showed children while telling them they were going to hell; presumably those atrocities depicted were ones the parents had seen while living in Minnesota before he was born.  Sounds like he really was released from the hospital in DC, but I'm not sure why, exactly.  The silver smile was a red herring, but Japheth/Beecham does have a severe facial tic.

Thanks for the clarification.

[ElleMo]

Non book reader here. If I understand correctly:   At the beginning of the episode, they were looking for Beecham.  But by the end of the episode, they realized   the person they are actually looking for is Japheth.   

 

Japheth was abused by Beecham, killed his own abusive parents as well as Beecham.  Then he took the Beecham name and joined the army where he went crazy during riots.  Was sent to DC  psych hospital because of that. 

What I am confused about is how they knew to investigate Japheth's family (Sara visited the house and Kreisler/Moore visted the brother).  Not sure when they first made the leap from Beecham to Japheth.  I think I must have not been paying attention in a scene or tow. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by ElleMo

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, ElleMo said:

What I am confused about is how they knew to investigate Japheth's family (Sara visited the house and Kreisler/Moore visted the brother).  Not sure when they first made the leap from Beecham to Japheth.  I think I must have not been paying attention in a scene or tow. 

That was because the boy Japheth was supposedly kidnapped by Indians after they killed his missionary parents. Japheth used the methods his father showed him in pictures to kill his parents, the sheriff/cops logged it as an Indian attack.

They didn't know Japheth was Beecham until the elder brother revealed Japheth's rapist's name.

Then they realized that the abused and raped boy took the name of his abuser and turned into the killer they were hunting.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[pezgirl7]

5 hours ago, ElleMo said:

What I am confused about is how they knew to investigate Japheth's family (Sara visited the house and Kreisler/Moore visted the brother).  Not sure when they first made the leap from Beecham to Japheth.  I think I must have not been paying attention in a scene or tow. 

My understanding was that they believed Beecham killed the Dury family because Beecham lived in the same town. They were only trying to find out more about the Dury murders, to see if they could have been committed by Beecham and not Indians. It wasn't until the guys started talking to his brother, and Sara talking to the sheriff, that they discovered that Beecham was actually Japheth.

[Neurochick]

15 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

My understanding was that they believed Beecham killed the Dury family because Beecham lived in the same town. They were only trying to find out more about the Dury murders, to see if they could have been committed by Beecham and not Indians. It wasn't until the guys started talking to his brother, and Sara talking to the sheriff, that they discovered that Beecham was actually Japheth.

That is correct.  Kreizler found out about the soldier Beecham (Japheth), who went crazy in Chicago and was sent to the hospital.  Moore found out about the murdered family in New Paltz.  When Moore and Kreizler compared notes, the realized that Beecham (Japheth) was FROM New Paltz.  Then they found out the Durys had an older son, who Moore and Kreizler went to see, while Sara went to New Paltz to find out about the murders.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

 

Clip: there was a massacre in New Paltz

[Kathira]

15 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That was because the boy Japheth was supposedly kidnapped by Indians after they killed his missionary parents. Japheth used the methods his father showed him in pictures to kill his parents, the sheriff/cops logged it as an Indian attack.

He may also have identified as an Indian since apparently his abusive mother told him he was a foundling, left on their door step by the "savages." That might have worked into his psychosis. He was an Indian, therefore he killed the way he had been shown that Indians did.

(I don't like using the term "Indian" rather then Native American, but that's what they use in the show, based on the language of the time period.)

Edited March 16, 2018 by Kathira

[Morrigan2575]

34 minutes ago, Kathira said:

He may also have identified as an Indian since apparently his abusive mother told him he was a foundling, left on their door step by the "savages." That might have worked into his psychosis. He was an Indian, therefore he killed the way he had been shown that Indians did.

(I don't like using the term "Indian" rather then Native American, but that's what they use in the show, based on the language of the time period.)

Excellent point, I forgot that the mother kept telling him he wasn't hers and that he was abandoned by Indians/savages.

[ElleMo]

 Thanks for the explanation.  Makes much more sense now.

[pezgirl7]

16 hours ago, Kathira said:

(I don't like using the term "Indian" rather then Native American, but that's what they use in the show, based on the language of the time period.)

I think it's a matter of preference. From what I've read, most American Indians prefer the term American Indian over Native American, and many don't mind just Indian. However, American Indian helps distinguish them from people from India. 

[lightninggirl]

On 3/12/2018 at 10:56 PM, Hazel55 said:

--The Issacson's subplot seems... a little bit pointless. So... Ester's a single mom? I sympathize with her plight, yet we've seen so little of this character outside of 2 random sex scenes that my reaction is less "Oh, poor dear" and more "Umm... okay... but why are you even telling me this?" Also, whether Marcus professes his love, breaks it off, or steps up and marries her, it adds very little to the plot or to the development of any significant characters.

I'm not a fan of the Issacsons - well, not the tall, geeky kid from Big Love. (aside - what's up with the Big Love connection? There are at least 3 actors from that series on this one! There might be more - those are the only 3 I've found thus far)

To me, he's totally miscast being about 9" taller than his 'twin' and basically looks like a windmill next to his stockier brother. I wish they'dve just written the shorter twin and kept it at one character. Unless they use Esther as a shocking plot twist or device? Really lame.

[Reality police]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:01 PM, pezgirl7 said:

Do we know who the guy is that followed John and Laszlo and shot at them, and who he's working for? Was it the same guy that drugged John and helped bring him to JP Morgan's place? And was he trying to kill them or just scare them?

The Swede is the one that drugged John and also drugged Stevie and Cyrus. I think if he was the one that shot at John and Dr K, Connor would have thought they were dead and wouldn't have coming looking for Dr K. Watching the episode again tonight I thought I saw the shooter get run over by the carriage. It's bugging me that I can't figure out who the shooter is. Surely it's not Dury, is it? Maybe he didn't want them honing in on his brother. Anyone figure it out?

[pezgirl7]

11 hours ago, Reality police said:

The Swede is the one that drugged John and also drugged Stevie and Cyrus. I think if he was the one that shot at John and Dr K, Connor would have thought they were dead and wouldn't have coming looking for Dr K. Watching the episode again tonight I thought I saw the shooter get run over by the carriage. It's bugging me that I can't figure out who the shooter is. Surely it's not Dury, is it? Maybe he didn't want them honing in on his brother. Anyone figure it out?

I watched all the episodes again and took screenshots to compare. I am pretty sure the Swede is the one who also shot at the carriage. He's definitely the one that was following them on the train. He was dressed the same and had the same ring. Maybe he followed the carriage, and saw that John and Laszlo escaped, so he went back to NYC, told Connor that they were still alive, so they went to Laszlo's house to finish the job. It doesn't really make sense though that they were just going to drug Cyrus and Stevie instead of killing them.

[Reality police]

18 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I watched all the episodes again and took screenshots to compare. I am pretty sure the Swede is the one who also shot at the carriage. He's definitely the one that was following them on the train. He was dressed the same and had the same ring. Maybe he followed the carriage, and saw that John and Laszlo escaped, so he went back to NYC, told Connor that they were still alive, so they went to Laszlo's house to finish the job. It doesn't really make sense though that they were just going to drug Cyrus and Stevie instead of killing them.

Could be, thanks.

[pezgirl7]

I'm bummed that they cut out this scene with John being all heroic. I'm not really sure how it would have fit into the scene, but maybe they thought it was too out of character for John.

[millennium]

I realize it's a tried and true plot device but I'm tired of shows featuring mid-level agitators (usually hirelings of the Big Bad) who barge into the action and create chaos just to embolden the main character in the climax.   Conner has been swaggering around scot-free for episodes now, shooting the Van Bergen scion, pistol whipping John, killing Mary, with no one to stop him.   It beggars credibility.

I would like to know how the show recreated the Mary Powell.   It was an elegant-looking boat and onscreen for too brief a time.  I appreciated the sunny scenes in the upper Hudson Valley and out west.   I don't normally pay close attention to such things, but so much of this series transpires in dark, dank settings that the sunlight felt like a respite.

[Aliferously]

I knew what was going to happen to Mary, because I was able to catch up on the book this week. She'll be missed.

I had an online acquaintance who had a son named Japhet. She called him Japhy for short. 

Glad they changed the carriage accident/shooting so that the horse survived.

[LadyChaos]

John is a better friend that Lazlo deserves, but poor Mary.