S02.E11: The Fifth Wheel

[izabella]

I think with Kevin and Kate being twins, Kevin would be less likely to be angry with her than the adopted Randall, especially since Randall was a boy.  If Randall had been a girl, it might have been Kate who resented "Randi" more than Kevin, especially if "Randi" was thin and "perfect" like Rebecca and Jack seemed to favor her.

Edited January 11, 2018 by izabella

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

As I read this notion in the thread, I think all that glitters isn't gold.

The point about Kevin having "it all" yet still craving something has been made here from the start. We have been shown times when Kevin has, as we ourselves have put it, left out. The point has been made that Kevin didn't get the attention Kate and Randall did because it seemed he didn't have issues, he "had it all" yet it's painfully obvious that wasn't and isn't the case.

The most glaring scene for me was at the pool. Here was a situation where Kevin should have gotten the most attention since he was the ONE kid who could not swim. My niece and nephew, 11 and 9, know how to swim yet when I take them to the pool my eyes are glued on them. I am totally at a loss as to why neither of his parents had their eyes glued on Kevin. If he wasn't already feeling left out, I can see the pool scene being the genesis to Kevin's issues.

Yes he's white and rich but that hasn't made Kevin issue free cause all that glitters ain't gold.

Bottom line is Kevin didn't get the attention the other two did because quite frankly he didn't need as much.. I guarantee Kevin doesn't want Kate's weight/self-esteem issues or Being abandoned and adopted by a white family as a replacement for their dead child and living life as the different one. Not mention the anxiety and finding out that your newly found dying father is also an addict. I doubt Kevin would trade places with Kate and Randall.

[DebbieM4]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:49 PM, Runningwild said:

You think that would matter to a 10 yr. old?  Let’s not forget Rebecca didn’t look at his trophies, didn’t watch him throw the football, AND throwing the football (Kevin’s thing) was really about Kate. So when Kate quit, Jack quit. It wasn’t about spending time with Kevin. Again. And let’s not forget the pool where they weren’t watching the kid who can’t swim. Kevin was definitely neglected more than the other two. 

I could not agree more.  It was insensitive to go on vacation and leave one child out.  I'm one of four, and my parents never would have done that.  I wouldn't have done that with my kids either.  It's a surefire way to make one feel excluded and not as valued as the others.  It also seemed that Kevin hadn't been aware they had all already been on vacation for a few days until he got there.  He expected a little family vacation only to find out they had happily started it without him.  Unless he was older and/or really truly totally cool with it, I think that was awful.  But he wasn't even in the loop, and he was justified in feeling hurt.  If my parents had done that to me, I would have been devastated.

And yes, the pool scene.  Kevin is probably my least favorite character, but that has stayed with me.  We've seen numerous other examples since then.  

[MarysWetBar]

On 09/01/2018 at 8:51 PM, tennisgurl said:

I honestly wish we could watch an Alternate Universe episode where Jack was still alive sometime, just to see how the whole Saint Jack thing would play out with a parent who had been alive longer. Its easier to deify a parent who died when the family was still pretty young, but dealing with a parent who you knew as an adult as well, and who you can actually confront? I think the story would be pretty different. 

This really spoke to me. My Dad died when I was 17, and we had a relationship like Kate and Jack. My mother was the strict one and always all over my ass about everything. Especially as a teenager. It wasn't until I had kids of my own that I got closer to my mom. Of course the dead parent is a saint...they didn't live long enough to ever disappoint you or you them. Less time for all the disagreements and squabbles a full messy life brings to a parent/ child relationship. This season is really bringing up things for me. Great writing.

[DebbieM4]

14 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Kids pull that crap because they want you to react, they want you to beg for their love, they want you to feel badly.  The best reaction is to ignore it or laugh it off.  Don't validate it by making a big deal of it.

I disagree.  Yes, kids say that kind of thing because they're looking for a reaction.  But I will not be disrespected in that way, and my kids knew that.  They acted out plenty, but telling me that I suck was not an option.  I don't think the best reaction is to ignore it, and I certainly wouldn't laugh it off.  The best reaction is to make a VERY big deal about it the first time, and nip it in the bud when they're young.  Let them know that's unacceptable and put a stop to it immediately.   I raised two boys and my house was Crazy Land a lot of the time.  They didn't have to like me or my decisions and they were certainly permitted to verbalize their unhappiness and displeasure.  But no way would I have tolerated having my children tell me that I suck.

[WhosThatGirl]

55 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

I could not agree more.  It was insensitive to go on vacation and leave one child out.  I'm one of four, and my parents never would have done that.  I wouldn't have done that with my kids either.  It's a surefire way to make one feel excluded and not as valued as the others.  It also seemed that Kevin hadn't been aware they had all already been on vacation for a few days until he got there.  He expected a little family vacation only to find out they had happily started it without him.  Unless he was older and/or really truly totally cool with it, I think that was awful.  But he wasn't even in the loop, and he was justified in feeling hurt.  If my parents had done that to me, I would have been devastated.

And yes, the pool scene.  Kevin is probably my least favorite character, but that has stayed with me.  We've seen numerous other examples since then.  

Yeah.. I find the fact that the family had  days in the cabin without Kevin pretty bad. I don’t know how else he’s supposed to feel. 

Im also still mad that Randall loses glasses and Rebecca’s first instinct is to call Kevin in and accuse him of taking them. 

I still stand by that Kevin is clearly the only one who’s seen jack in a real light. Like I said he saw the phone call to his sponsor and jack doing the prayer thing.

Randall seems to view Jack in a saint like way because Jack got all accounts saved him and brought him home. And Rebecca has enforced that ten fold. Remember her “your father pushed for you to be a part of our family”.

And Kate views Jack as a saint as well but also because Rebecca will Always be the villain in her childhood memories. Teen angst Kate blamed Rebecca for kicking Jack out and seemed to refuse to acknowledge he  had a problem even when he was telling her he did. 

It is like Randall said, they all different perspectives on their childhood. 

I do think this episode was a good one for Mandy Moore. Her “He was just easier!” Burst in that therapy scene was so well done. I’m curious about the “He didn’t abandon me when his father died” and also the “He didn’t recoil from my touch” stuff though; I feel like that could have been about Kate as well as Kevin. 

[Superpole2000]

This was good. Still, I think it could have been better. They could have spent the entire 42 minutes in the therapy session, and I would have loved it. That was a gold setup, something you can only do on a rare occasion, and they threw it away in less than ten minutes.

If anyone has seen the British show Line of Duty, they would be familiar with that show's super-long interrogation scenes. I wanted that here. I wanted these main characters interacting with each other in a raw way, without manipulative music, without interruptions from minor characters, and without time for the characters to reflect, calm down, and exhibit unnatural character growth. Just give me the main characters firing off at each other for 42 minutes, and it will be epic.

[Kira53]

23 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I don’t find kid Kevin a brat now that they were literally having a vacation without him! I know that he was at camp and then they were staying a few more days but they were essentially having a vacation while he was away and no kid is going to see anything different when his dad picks him up and brings him to a cabin where his siblings have been roasting s’mores and etc. so I get him now. 

 In my opinion going to camp is a vacation. The other two siblings were not on a vacation at camp which is a special privilege so I don’t see that Randall and Kate should’ve been deprived a few extra days at the cabin because Kevin was at a special camp developing his athletic skills. Kids aren’t the same, they can’t all be treated the same at every point in time. Just like Randall got the opportunity to go to an elite school because that was his talent.   I can see that Kevin might have felt they had gotten something that he hadn’t because often people don’t see what they do get that somebody else doesn’t get. 

 Kevin finding out that his siblings it’s knocking to sleep with his parents is also a two-way street. I doubt that the parents secretly invited them to sleep with them leaving Kevin out. Kevin left himself out because he didn’t have that same need to be as close to his parents. Unfortunately I’m sure he never knew that his mom got out of the bed to sleep on the floor with him and hug him. Growing up is really tough because life is really tough. 

[qtpye]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:51 PM, Blakeston said:

So while Rebecca was completely torn over what to do about Kate's weight - wanting to address her overeating, but not wanting to make her feel self-conscious - Jack was taking her out for daily ice cream trips? And trying to keep it secret from his wife?

Some freaking saint. If I were Rebecca, would have been absolutely furious with him.

I was totally shocked that he was so a slave to his daughter's whims that he took her to the ice cream parlor DAILY!  It also seemed like something he did only with her and not the boys.  I mean come on man, you have to say no sometimes.  No wonder Kate hate her mother, since her father has trained her that any person that does not give her exactly what she wants is totally wrong.  We are lucky Kate is not more like Veruca Salt.

12 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Wow. I didn't know my mother had a second family....my mom even bought me diet pills and an unlimited supply of Tab when I was a teen. and threw a holy fit when I got a job at a frozen custard stand in high school, telling me that if I worked there, that I would be required to bike the five miles to and from work, unless it was after dark.  I just shrugged that one off. I always biked in and out of town, anyway, since all my friends lived there.  But, there were times that I biked back and forth from work in a thunder storm on a two lane highway with a 55 mph speed limit.  Uphill.  (that last one is a joke)

I see a lot of Rebecca's obsession with Kate's weight in my own life. My mom even looked the other way when I developed bulimia in college, because hey....it worked.  And yeah, my relationship with her never healed.  We spoke and associated, but I cried more when my dog died.  Rebecca's obsession with Kate's weight is a trip to Disney compared to being called "Packy," short for Pachyderm, by your own mother.  I don't recall Rebecca ever being shown as resorting to name calling and fat shaming, or secretly taking in Kate's clothes so that she'll think that she gained weight, freak out, and go on a crash diet (yeah, my mom did that. I was a 120 pound high school cheerleader at the time). So, yeah, sometimes I also dislike Kate for the way she blames her mother for everything, as well.  Rebecca is relatively tame, and hardly to blame for Kate becoming so large.  Kate relied on her food addiction for comfort after losing Jack, more so IMO than Rebecca watching what Kate ate and trying to help her make good choices, and....gasp....being pretty, herself.  Yet, who gets the blame? Once again, the mother. The Bad Cop. 

My opinion of Kevin is clouded by the fact that I never liked the character from the beginning. Selfish, immature, self-absorbed, given everything while growing up, yet it's still never enough. Out of the Big Three, who has had the most privilege in his life? The white male super jock who grew up to be a beef cake actor? The obese, self-conscious, bullied by kids in school, white female? Or is it the adopted black male, who is different from everyone in the family, and was sent to a different school than his siblings, albeit for a GOOD reason, but was just another thing that amplified how different he was than the rest of his family.  Yes, his parents seemed to worry less about Kevin,  which he uses as a way to play victim, but who had the easier time growing up? My guess is the white male jock turned pampered actor.  None of the Big Three are portrayed as growing up in a perfect situation. And their parents (especially Rebecca) are not portrayed as being perfect parents. Jack's faults are mentioned, but they're hidden behind the fact that he died tragically young, so, he's been canonized.

And I still think that Ellis Grey is a sucktastic therapist.  Is that how it goes? Attack the mother until she breaks down and sobs uncontrollably so that your addict client has his pound of flesh to blame for everything? Rather than forcing him to look in a mirror and take some of the blame upon himself? Oh, bravo, Ellis! 

And this:

Exactly.  She wasn't a therapist. She was an advocate for Kevin.  Allowing him to go into attack mode while silencing the others.

But yeah, it was still a great episode! LOL. We wouldn't be dissecting it so much if it wasn't this believable, identifiable and didn't hit home for so many of us. 

I must be your long lost sibling, because my mother did all the same things.  I was 5'5" and weighed 108 pounds and she still called me fat.  She actually subtly encouraged my bulimia, because it made me look more the way she wanted.

 

10 hours ago, pricklypear said:

I totally agree. She did call him a "superhero" to her band mate, too, though. I get that she was mad at the guy who was hitting on her at the time, and I think she was right to tell him off, but I think there was a little bit of idealizing when he was alive, too, which became even more magnified after he died.

There has been an unsaid honesty that much of the world thought Rebecca married "down" when she married Jack.  She was obviously expected to marry some sort of educated upper middle class white collar professional, who would provide her with a housekeeper and all the perks that type of affluence usually comes with.  Instead, she married a solid (before he committed the robberies) blue collar type of guy and I think her framing Jack as perfect is one way she unconsciously deals with that.

We know a man whose family felt that he married down, compared to their social standards.  My gosh, this guy would go out of his way to talk about how awesome his wife was and how she was the greatest woman in the world, and even how he could not keep his hands off of her after five kids.  Maybe he did feel this way, but the fact that he was so vocal about it made it seem like he was overcompensating for his own insecurities with the relationship.

9 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Dear Toby:  When you are shown a picture of your girlfriend's beloved late father, commenting that he looks like a porn star seemed like a good idea, why? 

Me, "Toby, here is a picture of my beloved grandmother who just passed away".

Toby, "Woof, what an uggo...bet your glad you don't have to look at that face anymore". 

Writers, "Everybody loves Toby...right".

7 hours ago, mommalib said:

And why did Kevin take all his anger out on Randall not on Kate at all. I get the feeling that because Kevin is the white biological child and Randall is the different one maybe Kevin felt he should take priority over Randall.

Kate is not competition for Kevin and it is not just because of her gender.  Kevin will always be the "star" of the Kevin and Kate show and this allowed for a smoother relationship with her.  Both Kevin and Randall are Alphas, while Kate is fairly comfortable being a Beta, except in Jack's eyes.  The irony is that Kevin sees himself as the Omega of the family.

[SueB]

Spent a lot of time crying during this episode.  Quick thoughts:

Kevin - What's worse than hate? Disinterest.  Kevin didn't just feel like the fifth wheel, he felt rejected.  That's why he lashed out.  And his parent assumed he didn't need them.  Which is why he recoiled from Rebecca and lashed out.  When you feel rejected you close off.  "I don't need you, I have my fans." And it wasn't a problem just as a child.  Everyone left when he was filming his TV show.  No one noticed he was spiraling into addiction. They all attacked him when he talked about how he feels.  Don't get me wrong, Kevin has many issues but he was absolutely right about being left out.  

Kate - I think she's been there for Kevin and honestly I blame her the least.  She was shocked he felt the way he felt and that's a bit of a surprise but I think if anyone actually continues to make progress with him, it'll be Kate.

Randall - Well he was right, he did a bad job in supporting his brother.  But he had supressed his anger regarding Tess so when things got "real", he just let it rip.  I loved his "so, it's official, Mom loves me best."

Rebecca - I feel like Randall got her unconditional love. Kate was loved but Rebecca also saw Kate's failures as HER failures.  And yes, many of us on this board see Rebecca as their own mother so she was not out of step with the rest of society.  But Kevin? Kevin was fine in her eyes and didn't need her.  She was right to admit she was wrong.  Also, Jack was an addict.  That she resists this label is more of the "gloss over the problems" issue that Rebecca has.

The therapist - Boy did she get an earful.  I was glad she did some gatekeeping.  Kate, Randall and Rebecca ALL immediately dismissed Kevin's feelings.  And I was glad she busted Rebecca on not having a "moment" that Jack missed for Kevin.  This therapist can help Kevin.  I hope it sticks.

Beth - she is definitely hostile towards Kevin. She's always resented him some but now she has an official reason to reject him.

Toby - was honestly my favorite last night.  I love that Kevin and Kate love that he would have cried.  Best line: "How drunk is Miguel."

Miguel - Yo! Spilling some state secrets under the influence!  Good stuff out of Miguel last night. But he's still living in Jack's shadow.  And Rebecca needs to commit to him.

But the things I keep coming back to in my mind is that the family looked at Kevin at a superficial level (looks, athleticism, charm) and were a bit jealous of how he seemed to have it all - so they just let him fend for himself.  And the other kids had issues that made giving them attention more natural.  But, IMO, there was real neglect going on.  Jack running off to Kate without so much as an "I'll be back."  Rebecca immediately assuming Kevin has been spiteful to Randall.  There's an edge there that is not pretty.  

And here's the "Life imitating Art" moment: Justin Hartley is literally the ONLY cast member of the main leads who has received zero individual recognition.  He's too pretty.  Awards people apparently only see the superficial with Justin just like the family did with Kevin.  It's a pity.  Because Justin is doing work that is at least on par with Chrissy Metz, Mandy Moore, and Milo V.  Sterling K. Brown is sort of "next level" but Justin is putting out a great performance.  Maybe Ron Howard will actually offer him a job?

Bottom Line:  The family reaction to Kevin's statements was pretty much Exhibit A for the prosecution.  They don't think Kevin is ALLOWED to have problems.  That's just wrong IMO.  To quote Horton: "A person is a person, no matter how small. A person is a person, after all."  

Edited January 11, 2018 by SueB

[debraran]

I feel with Miguel, they don't want to show the fans the more intimate moments but they will later. Jack hasn't died yet in some of TV time and they don't want Rebecca kissing or hugging him or showing affection because it will make them angry. I feel reading an old interview, I understood that, but come on, this is a reflection on real life, they have been married over10 years, have history, holiday's, vacations, moments together. To make him a cardboard cutout is silly. I look forward to seeing normal interactions with them in the future.

I didn't really understand the "not wanting to be touched" comment from Rebecca with Kevin. When he was young, he didn't recoil. My son was never a hugger and I didn't feel less for him, we connected other ways. As a teen, he was surly but that didn't happen overnight. Instead of constantly telling him to be nice to Randall, did they try to explore why he hated him on some level?

Jack's a good guy, but undermines his wife all the time, the vacation (but not really for her cooking and cleaning) and other decisions over the years have never been hers, taking their daughter out for ice cream daily (!) because he doesn't want to see the "look" she gave him?  Come on? I remember the "something to talk about in therapy" line from my parents too, most parents know it's a bumpy ride and they wont do anything right all the time in everyone's eyes. That said what Jack did with Kate though wasn't love, it was a need for acceptance, an easy route, he didn't want her to be unwell but his feelings topped hers. That is never healthy.

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

I was 5'5" and weighed 108 pounds and she still called me fat. 

That's exactly the size I was when my parents started to make me feel self-conscious about my body because I had small saddlebag bulges at the top of my skinny legs.  The things we have liposuction for today were considered something you could spot-reduce in the 60's. By the time I was fourteen I was doing hundreds of repetitions of thigh slimming work-outs every day, but I never tried on a pair of a pair of pants or, heaven forbid, swimsuit without being poked in the bulge and asked if I was doing my exercises?  I'll never forget my father complimenting my uncle on his "streamlined daughters."  I also remember my mother telling me my father was ashamed of me and both parents constantly taking the ice-cream inventory.

The posts up-thread of little girls on diet pills just broke my heart. (If Mandy Moore reads this thread and doesn't cry, she's reading it wrong!) 

This should probably be in the unpopular opinion thread but I think, rather than Jack getting on board with Rebecca's plan to control Kate's weight,  Rebecca should follow Jack's lead and just permanently shut up about what Kate eats and how much she exercises.  Sure, Rebecca should fix healthy meals and quit stocking the house with Twinkies and candy bars,  I did that much for my skinny family, but ice-cream trips on vacation, or homemade desserts after Sunday dinner should be something the whole family enjoys with no side eyes to anyone.  Looking for a dance class or  soccer team would be nice, too, but it should be approached as  something Kate might enjoy, not something Kate needs to do because she is simply not loveable or acceptable as she is.  Because that is the message Rebecca is giving Kate; along with a lot of issues around specific foods as tantalizing forbidden fruit to be obsessed about until binged upon.

[ShadowFacts]

33 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

This should probably be in the unpopular opinion thread but I think, rather than Jack getting on board with Rebecca's plan to control Kate's weight,  Rebecca should follow Jack's lead and just permanently shut up about what Kate eats and how much she exercises.  Sure, Rebecca should fix healthy meals and quit stocking the house with Twinkies and candy bars,  I did that much for my skinny family, but ice-cream trips on vacation, or homemade desserts after Sunday dinner should be something the whole family enjoys with no side eyes to anyone.  Looking for a dance class or  soccer team would be nice, too, but it should be approached as  something Kate might enjoy, not something Kate needs to do because she is simply not loveable or acceptable as she is.  Because that is the message Rebecca is giving Kate; along with a lot of issues around specific foods as tantalizing forbidden fruit to be obsessed about until binged upon.

I agree with this.  Rebecca is giving the wrong message, however inadvertent or well-intentioned.  But so is Jack.  His part of the equation is that he is telling Kate "I love you, you're my princess, here's some ice cream."  She's gotten comfort from that and kicked it into high gear at some point.  Something about that comfort went to the next level some time after Jack died, because teen Kate isn't even overweight in my opinion.  There's obviously a lot of complexity about her weight including possible medical aspects, but Jack was also inadvertently adding to the problem. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 hours ago, MsChicklet said:

I wonder if Rebecca noticed the woosh of the point sailing over her wig when she said, “You do a great disservice by calling my husband an addict, because he was so much more than that.” In the context of this family therapy session, Jack's addiction is a key thing to talk about.

ITA - the whole reason they were there having a group session with Kevin's therapist AT REHAB was because of his addiction. His therapist was trying to get to the root of his addiction issues. I wish Ellis Grey had told Rebecca, "And you're doing a great disservice to my client and your son by ignoring the fact that your husband's addiction affected Kevin."

We are all multi-faceted people. But choosing to ignore one facet because it's negative is not looking at the whole person. No matter how much Jack loved his family, that doesn't erase the fact that he was an addict. Rebecca's steadfast insistence on ignoring Jack's addiction in order to keep him perfect is realistic but it does no one any favors. My dad died a few years ago and I know that he loved me, he did his best, and he worked his ass off to provide for us, but that he was by no means perfect. There's nothing wrong with admitting someone is flawed and has faults. That doesn't mean you don't love the person. And telling your kids that perfection is something to aspire to just sets unreasonable expectations.

13 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Same-sex siblings tend to be harsher towards each other than with siblings of the opposite sex.

I have two sisters but I know several families that have 2 boys/1 girl or 2 girls/1 boy and it's so true.

As for Kevin being privileged, yes, he is a white male who grew up comfortably suburban middle class. He never went hungry or worried about whether he would have somewhere to live or be shot on his way home from school. But that doesn't make how he feels any less valid. I'm not trying to villainize Rebecca or Jack because they were never deliberately malicious in their behavior toward Kevin. They clearly loved him and did their best. But that doesn't mean they didn't hurt his feelings or make him feel left out. It's possible for more than one truth to exist. Truth #1: Jack and Rebecca loved Kevin. Truth #2: Kevin had a comfortable childhood. Truth #3: Jack and Rebecca sometimes turned their attention to Kate or Randall (see: Kevin almost drowned). Truth #4: Kevin sometimes felt neglected, ignored, or not as good as his siblings. ALL of these things can be true simultaneously without contradicting each other.

[Guest]

About halfway through the episode, I decided that I absolutely despised Beth, Randall, and Rebecca.  By the end of the episode, Randall and Rebecca had mostly redeemed themselves to me. 

Beth and Randall's daughter is old enough to take the blame for sneaking into someone's car to escape the house. She's not a 4 year old.  They don't need to act like she's just so precious and so damaged by Uncle Kevin.  If anything, she's more damaged by the revolving door you've installed in the house in the past year.

Like I said, Rebecca redeemed herself by the end, but come on? You favored Randall as a young child because Kevin would grow up and move across the country? So you were psychic?  And when you said Kate wouldn't have her dad at her wedding, yet you don't even mention that Kevin DIDN'T have his dad at his wedding.

I loved the scene of the Big Three outside though. It was touching.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, deaja said:

Beth and Randall's daughter is old enough to take the blame for sneaking into someone's car to escape the house. She's not a 4 year old.  They don't need to act like she's just so precious and so damaged by Uncle Kevin.  If anything, she's more damaged by the revolving door you've installed in the house in the past year.

When they asked her if she was OK at the beginning of the epi, she said something about being upset that Deja was gone but understanding why.  So, I don't know that they were asking because of her adventure with Uncle Kevin.  And Tess didn't know he was drunk so had no reason to think she was endangering anyone by getting in his car.  The only one to blame for Kevin drinking and driving is Kevin.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, Kira53 said:

 In my opinion going to camp is a vacation. The other two siblings were not on a vacation at camp which is a special privilege so I don’t see that Randall and Kate should’ve been deprived a few extra days at the cabin because Kevin was at a special camp developing his athletic skills. Kids aren’t the same, they can’t all be treated the same at every point in time. Just like Randall got the opportunity to go to an elite school because that was his talent.   I can see that Kevin might have felt they had gotten something that he hadn’t because often people don’t see what they do get that somebody else doesn’t get. 

That's what I was going to say. Kevin was already on vacation - so if you flip the script, so to speak - his siblings were the ones who were left out (and would have continued to be left out until Jack got the opportunity to go to the cabin). But kids are rarely rational, or analytical. Much of the damage our parents inflict is unintentional - and one approach may damage one child, but not the other. Jack and Rebecca both made mistakes - and both had successes - as parents. We all do. Generally we hear more about the times we've failed that the times we succeed. 

Guess I'm in a kumbaya mood this morning. :)

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree with this.  Rebecca is giving the wrong message, however inadvertent or well-intentioned.  But so is Jack.  His part of the equation is that he is telling Kate "I love you, you're my princess, here's some ice cream."  She's gotten comfort from that and kicked it into high gear at some point.  Something about that comfort went to the next level some time after Jack died, because teen Kate isn't even overweight in my opinion.  There's obviously a lot of complexity about her weight including possible medical aspects, but Jack was also inadvertently adding to the problem. 

Yeah, I agree. I think Rebecca needed to treat Kate like a person instead of a problem that needed to be fixed, and that's what has added to her strained relationship with Kate. But Jack is really no better in any way by indulging her with daily ice cream trips. The sad thing is that I bet Rebecca tries not to buy junk food and have it in the house, but Jack probably insists. Plus, it's hard when they have three children and all of them have different needs. 

7 minutes ago, deaja said:

Like I said, Rebecca redeemed herself by the end, but come on? You favored Randall as a young child because Kevin would grow up and move across the country? So you were psychic?  And when you said Kate wouldn't have her dad at her wedding, yet you don't even mention that Kevin DIDN'T have his dad at his wedding.

Yeah, her blurt confession at the end didn't make all that much sense, thinking about it. Sure, teenager Kevin was surly and didn't seem to favour the comfort of his parents, but because at that point, the damage had already been done. Kid Kevin was constantly craving the attention of Jack and Rebecca and the more he didn't get it, the more he lashed out, and it was then when he realized that he could get any kind of attention if he kept lashing out. So when was it easier for Rebecca to love Randall more than Kevin, exactly? Because either the writers went for the wrong message, or there's more to it. 

10 minutes ago, deaja said:

Beth and Randall's daughter is old enough to take the blame for sneaking into someone's car to escape the house. She's not a 4 year old.  They don't need to act like she's just so precious and so damaged by Uncle Kevin.  If anything, she's more damaged by the revolving door you've installed in the house in the past year.

True. I think Beth and Randall are rightfully concerned of Tess, and she even said that they've been constantly asking her if she's ok for the last month, but they are taking it overboard. Like Kevin pointed out to Randall, why did he think Tess was in Kevin's car in the first place? Obviously, Randall wasn't aware of exactly why Tess snuck into his car. Sure, Tess told them part of the truth about being upset about Deja, but Kevin had to spell it out for Randall about it being about William too. But I think there are some parents, like Beth/Randall, who need more of a push to see that their child, or children, are lashing out for some reason and that they're not just some victims. Tess is old enough to make her own decisions, and she didn't know Kevin was drunk, but she did choose to run away. And Beth/Randall asked her if she was ok, sure, but they didn't understand why and decided to shift their anger and confusion toward Kevin instead. 

Also, I do feel bad for Tess and I can't even blame her for wanting to leave with Kevin. I do think what Randall did with William and then with Deja was on him and he was so involved in himself that he didn't see the problems forming around him. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

When they asked her if she was OK at the beginning of the epi, she said something about being upset that Deja was gone but understanding why.  So, I don't know that they were asking because of her adventure with Uncle Kevin.  And Tess didn't know he was drunk so had no reason to think she was endangering anyone by getting in his car.  The only one to blame for Kevin drinking and driving is Kevin.

I totally agree that Kevin is the only one to blame for drinking and driving and that Tess didn't realize she would be in danger. But she's old enough to know that you don't sneak into a car to get away from your house - sneaking off is unsafe for a number of reasons, not just when the driver is drunk.  

[MissLucas]

Tess in Kevin's car is a plot point that so far hasn't really been addressed, right? We saw Randall and Beth being worried to leave for Kevin's rehab and Tess brushing them off and promising not to run away again. Kevin clearly did some projecting when he accused Randall of not paying attention to what his daughter was going through* but he probably had a point there. When a girl like Tess decides to run away from a stable home you might want to look closer. She claims to have been upset about Deja but that doesn't really explain her actions. And maybe that's another reason why Randall and Beth are so angry - blaming Kevin for endangering their daughter is easier than digging deeper into the situation.

*So, you-you move your dying father into your home without thinking about what your wife or what your kids think of that, and then you bring some-some strange girl into the house after he dies, right? And the only person sitting there that no one's paying attention to - is your daughter, Tess

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Rebecca is giving the wrong message, however inadvertent or well-intentioned.  But so is Jack.  His part of the equation is that he is telling Kate "I love you, you're my princess, here's some ice cream." 

I agree.  Jack shouldn't be teaching Kate that food should be used for comfort anymore than Rebecca should be teaching her that food is something to fear.  I just blame Rebecca for the situation more than Jack because of the accompanying message the parents are sending. Jack tells Kate that to him she is the most beautiful person in the world while Rebecca's  message is that Kate is not okay in her present state. It would be great if both parents could leave food completely out of how they interact with Kate.

[ShadowFacts]

46 minutes ago, deaja said:

I totally agree that Kevin is the only one to blame for drinking and driving and that Tess didn't realize she would be in danger. But she's old enough to know that you don't sneak into a car to get away from your house - sneaking off is unsafe for a number of reasons, not just when the driver is drunk.  

That's just it, she didn't realize she'd be in any danger because Kevin is her trusted uncle and she didn't recognize impairment.  She's old enough to know a lot of things, but at the age of 10 or 12 the pre-frontal cortex isn't fully developed and she isn't able to rationally analyze all the risks.  It was a teaching moment, and a wake-up call for Randall and Beth.

[MsChicklet]

59 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Kevin clearly did some projecting when he accused Randall of not paying attention to what his daughter was going through* but he probably had a point there.

I agree. Kevin has had a good relationship with the girls in the past, like when he talked with them about his painting. I think he recognized something in what Tess was feeling and how she was acting, even through the haze of booze and pills.

Beth and Randall both failed in this episode. Randall was unfair in pushing Beth to come to the rehab. He was not taking everything she'd been through -- the stress over Deja, then Tess -- into account. And Beth was wrong in going. She's had no problem asserting herself in the past, she should have told Randall that while he was ready for this, she wasn't. She was no help to Randall, and all she did was petulantly shit on all things Pearson while maintaining a resting bitchface from beginning to end.  She made Toby look better than usual to me, and considering the roles are usually reversed, that's no easy feat. But that's the thing I love about this show. You can understand and sympathize with the characters, even when their behavior sucks.

Edited January 11, 2018 by MsChicklet

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, MsChicklet said:

You can understand and sympathize with the characters, even when their behavior sucks.

This is so true. The show doesn't really have any villains, and they don't really have any saints either.  I know the kids see Jack as a saint, but as viewers, we've seen plenty of flaws.

[Jillybean]

14 hours ago, Runningwild said:

Rewatch the show and pretend you’re a Kevin fan. You will see time and time again how he was overlooked and tossed aside. 

I am a Kevin fan and I think this has been evident from the start. It was also evident to me that he received the least attention because he was seen as a golden boy who didn't have any problems or need any special attention in order to thrive. It was a fallacy of Jack and Rebecca's "perfect" parenting, and it's amazing that she is only just now realizing this.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's just it, she didn't realize she'd be in any danger because Kevin is her trusted uncle and she didn't recognize impairment.  She's old enough to know a lot of things, but at the age of 10 or 12 the pre-frontal cortex isn't fully developed and she isn't able to rationally analyze all the risks.  It was a teaching moment, and a wake-up call for Randall and Beth.

This week they said she was 9.  I don't really think we need to bring underdeveloped cortexes into this.  She snuck into his car so that he would take her wherever he was going.  He's her uncle.  She didn't know he was drunk.  I'm sure she's been allowed to go off with him before.  I'm not saying that she didn't do anything wrong.  But this was a far cry from running away from home, or getting into a stranger's car.  If Kevin hadn't been drunk, he would have called her parents and said he took her out with him and this would have been a complete non-issue.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As for Kevin being privileged, yes, he is a white male who grew up comfortably suburban middle class. He never went hungry or worried about whether he would have somewhere to live or be shot on his way home from school. But that doesn't make how he feels any less valid. I'm not trying to villainize Rebecca or Jack because they were never deliberately malicious in their behavior toward Kevin. They clearly loved him and did their best. But that doesn't mean they didn't hurt his feelings or make him feel left out. It's possible for more than one truth to exist. Truth #1: Jack and Rebecca loved Kevin. Truth #2: Kevin had a comfortable childhood. Truth #3: Jack and Rebecca sometimes turned their attention to Kate or Randall (see: Kevin almost drowned). Truth #4: Kevin sometimes felt neglected, ignored, or not as good as his siblings. ALL of these things can be true simultaneously without contradicting each other.

Spot On.  And in fact, the idea that because he's a privleged white male with money means he doesn't have the right to have issues is just BS IMO.  This is not a contest about who has the worst life.  Kevin, justifiably, felt left out with Rebecca's attention to Randall and Jack's to Kate.  They've shown us that in just about EVERY flashback to their youth and STILL today in present time.  The "you have a good life so you are not allowed to have issues" mentality really trivializes someone else's pain.  Kevin was, at a minimum, suffering from depression and anxiety.  Priviledged socio-economic status is not a vaccination against depression/anxiety.  That kind of attitude is based on material value - which can have very little to do with a person's self worth.  Kevin's issues have come and gone over the years and his recent knee injury with subsequent addiction probably kicked them into high gear.  This is not some white guy complaining about his life circumstances.  This is a guy who has, within his family, always felt like the 5th wheel, like he was "less than".  And the show has demonstrated it pretty clearly that he was often left to fend for himself emotionally. 

And look at Rebecca's apology!  She admits Kevin is right but in her mind it's Kevin's fault because he was surly and recoiled at her touch.  Later she tells Kevin that she didn't feel she had to worry about him because he was so brave.  The idea that his white male priveldge means he doesn't need attention from his mother is pretty much the same argument Rebecca offers -- she didn't need to worry about him because he was nice looking and made friends easily.   Because that's ALL that matters in life?  What I got from that first intense argument and then the later moment was that Kevin's default mode is to push down his complaints. To soften whatever he said.  He's a people pleaser.  That's not always healthy for the person who has that personality type.  

Edited January 11, 2018 by SueB

[ShadowFacts]

50 minutes ago, SueB said:

Spot On.  And in fact, the idea that because he's a privleged white male with money means he doesn't have the right to have issues is just BS IMO.  This is not a contest about who has the worst life.  Kevin, justifiably, felt left out with Rebecca's attention to Randall and Jack's to Kate.  They've shown us that in just about EVERY flashback to their youth and STILL today in present time.  The "you have a good life so you are not allowed to have issues" mentality really trivializes someone else's pain.  Kevin was, at a minimum, suffering from depression and anxiety.  Priviledged socio-economic status is not a vaccination against depression/anxiety.  That kind of attitude is based on material value - which can have very little to do with a person's self worth.  Kevin's issues have come and gone over the years and his recent knee injury with subsequent addiction probably kicked them into high gear.  This is not some white guy complaining about his life circumstances.  This is a guy who has, within his family, always felt like the 5th wheel, like he was "less than".  And the show has demonstrated it pretty clearly that he was often left to fend for himself emotionally. 

And look at Rebecca's apology!  She admits Kevin is right but in her mind it's Kevin's fault because he was surly and recoiled at her touch.  Later she tells Kevin that she didn't feel she had to worry about him because he was so brave.  The idea that his white male priveldge means he doesn't need attention from his mother is pretty much the same argument Rebecca offers -- she didn't need to worry about him because he was nice looking and made friends easily.   Because that's ALL that matters in life?  What I got from that first intense argument and then the later moment was that Kevin's default mode is to push down his complaints. To soften whatever he said.  He's a people pleaser.  That's not always healthy for the person who has that personality type.  

I don't think Kevin's privileged status is in much dispute as regards the outside world -- he recognizes it himself.  I don't see it as playing much of a role in the family hierarchy (except maybe in his resentment of Randall but that revolves more around the adoption) and certainly it does not mean a white male will never have problems.  I am not seeing a mentality within the show where the golden boy isn't allowed to suffer, quite the contrary.  He's had success, he doesn't think he deserves it, he's buried his feelings, and he's only recently feeling that repressed stuff come to the surface.

 

As to Rebecca and what she feels/says, all valid as well.  Feelings are OK, examining them and voicing them are good things, it's what Kevin has needed to do more of and really, all of them do.    She's defensive in the moment because she feels she's just been attacked, perfectly natural and understandable.  I don't see things as very black and white here, nor victim/oppressor, these are people trying to make sense of where they have ended up in life so far.  I'm a little bit bugged by some things just about everyone on this show does at times, just like in real life; there is no smooth sailing, not all the time.  We all inflict our flaws on other people, and they do likewise to us. 

[WhosThatGirl]

I mean yeah none of these people on this show are perfect just like real life. The only person who comes off as perfect and saint like is Jack. At least so far. It seems that with his addiction issue now, Kevin is finally examining it all and taking off the rose colored glasses. Because it is a real issue. 

[wallofsound]

I’ve never enjoyed Toby on this show at all, but I liked him in that bar scene with the other big 3.   I particularly liked his slow turn when Miguel announced that he married his best friend’s wife. Like,  I gotta hear this ... 

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, MsChicklet said:

Beth and Randall both failed in this episode. Randall was unfair in pushing Beth to come to the rehab. He was not taking everything she'd been through -- the stress over Deja, then Tess -- into account. And Beth was wrong in going. She's had no problem asserting herself in the past, she should have told Randall that while he was ready for this, she wasn't. She was no help to Randall, and all she did was petulantly shit on all things Pearson while maintaining a resting bitchface from beginning to end.  She made Toby look better than usual to me, and considering the roles are usually reversed, that's no easy feat. But that's the thing I love about this show. You can understand and sympathize with the characters, even when their behavior sucks.

But Beth wasn't the only non-Pearson who showed up.  Miguel and Toby were there too.  It seems as if there was some miscommunication there because it wasn't til the therapist clarified that it was only the nuclear/immediate family.  The fact that Beth, who does not have warm feelings toward Kevin anyway, came to his family therapy session because family was asked to come shows a level of support to her husband and yes, even to Kevin, that she did not have to show at all if she really was the unfeeling bitch some people thinks she is.

I just find it increasingly problematic that even if Beth's feelings about something can be viewed as absolutely valid given the context, she'd labeled a bitch no matter what.  She doesn't like Kevin? She's a bitch.  Nevermind that Kevin has been canonically portrayed as an asshole.  She didn't welcome William with open arms and asked how long he was planning to stay?  She's a bitch. Nevermind that the way Randall just invited this stranger into their home with her kids would make any wife wary.   She didn't immediately turn over Deja to her mother when her mom got out of prison?  She's a bitch.  Nevermind Deja's mother cold showed up at their house is the middle of the night with no warning making a scene. 

It is true that no one on the show is perfect, not even saint Jack.  But the Pearson's are the only ones who get a deep POV and so all of their issues get an extra level of sympathy and understanding that Toby, Miguel and Beth will never get.  That is understandable.  But sometime the animus toward Toby, Miguel and Beth is baffling because they really haven't done anything so terrible.

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

But Beth wasn't the only non-Pearson who showed up.  Miguel and Toby were there too.  It seems as if there was some miscommunication there because it wasn't til the therapist clarified that it was only the nuclear/immediate family.  The fact that Beth, who does not have warm feelings toward Kevin anyway, came to his family therapy session because family was asked to come shows a level of support to her husband and yes, even to Kevin, that she did not have to show at all if she really was the unfeeling bitch some people thinks she is.

I just find it increasingly problematic that even if Beth's feelings about something can be viewed as absolutely valid given the context, she'd labeled a bitch no matter what.  She doesn't like Kevin? She's a bitch.  Nevermind that Kevin has been canonically portrayed as an asshole.  She didn't welcome William with open arms and asked how long he was planning to stay?  She's a bitch. Nevermind that the way Randall just invited this stranger into their home with her kids would make any wife wary.   She didn't immediately turn over Deja to her mother when her mom got out of prison?  She's a bitch.  Nevermind Deja's mother cold showed up at their house is the middle of the night with no warning making a scene. 

It is true that no one on the show is perfect, not even saint Jack.  But the Pearson's are the only ones who get a deep POV and so all of their issues get an extra level of sympathy and understanding that Toby, Miguel and Beth will never get.  That is understandable.  But sometime the animus toward Toby, Miguel and Beth is baffling because they really haven't done anything so terrible.

I am of the mind that Beth wasn't going to be helpful to Kevin's therapy, whether or not she was allowed in the session. Plus, she knew she wasn't going to be helpful because of her feelings. Randall should have recognized that and made up an excuse to Kevin on why she couldn't be there (aka, he could have still used the excuse of Tess not feeling well and Beth deciding to stay home). I think it's fine to admit that she was valid in her feelings but still acting bitchy. It's not a bad thing to be both. People can have bitchy moments and not be completely wrong. I may not be fond of passive aggressive behaviour, like Beth was doing in front of Kevin, but I can understand where she's coming from. It's just that I have an adversion to passive aggressive behaviour. 

Also, for the record, I loved Beth in the William moment because she had no reason to trust Randall's birth father who just appeared in their lives and who Randall was naive in jumpstarting a relationship with. She was being protective of Randall in that moment, in a much different way than with Kevin, because of her uncertainty with him. Beth also wasn't wrong in yelling at Deja's mom for showing up on their doorstep because that was completely inappropriate. 

I agree that anyone not named the Pearsons don't get as much of a POV, if any, that's not directly related to the Pearsons. Unfortunately, I've seen this happen with many other shows. It's why I very much enjoyed the bar scenes with them. 

[MsChicklet]

37 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think it's fine to admit that she was valid in her feelings but still acting bitchy. It's not a bad thing to be both. People can have bitchy moments and not be completely wrong. I may not be fond of passive aggressive behaviour, like Beth was doing in front of Kevin, but I can understand where she's coming from.

This. I didn't like Beth's behavior, but I could also get why she would not be happy. Like I could get why Kate would feel inadequate next to Rebecca, but not like the way she lashed out when Rebecca came to her gig. Or I could get why Randall wanted to adopt, but not like the way he was willing to steamroll over Beth and the girls to get what he wanted.

[abourgeois]

7 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I agree with this.  Rebecca is giving the wrong message, however inadvertent or well-intentioned.  But so is Jack.  His part of the equation is that he is telling Kate "I love you, you're my princess, here's some ice cream."  She's gotten comfort from that and kicked it into high gear at some point.  Something about that comfort went to the next level some time after Jack died, because teen Kate isn't even overweight in my opinion.  There's obviously a lot of complexity about her weight including possible medical aspects, but Jack was also inadvertently adding to the problem. 

THIS!! When Kate was confessing to Toby about her binge eating and saying that she has a lot of emotions tied up in food...the flashback was of Jack taking her to the ice cream parlor, and she wasn't talking about positive emotions. Jack may not have been intentional but what he did was just as damaging. Jack taught Kate that food = love. I don't want to generalize over-eaters in any way, but for me, that is exactly the crux of my issues. Food makes me feel good and it's a dangerous, vicious cycle. Kate used food after Jack's death because that was their "thing" and it made her feel better, albeit temporarily. Jack bears some responsibility for Kate's issues with food and was not in the right against Rebecca. 

[izabella]

27 minutes ago, abourgeois said:

THIS!! When Kate was confessing to Toby about her binge eating and saying that she has a lot of emotions tied up in food...the flashback was of Jack taking her to the ice cream parlor, and she wasn't talking about positive emotions. Jack may not have been intentional but what he did was just as damaging. Jack taught Kate that food = love. I don't want to generalize over-eaters in any way, but for me, that is exactly the crux of my issues. Food makes me feel good and it's a dangerous, vicious cycle. Kate used food after Jack's death because that was their "thing" and it made her feel better, albeit temporarily. Jack bears some responsibility for Kate's issues with food and was not in the right against Rebecca. 

He did teach her that food=love, and conversely, I can see how Kate would think Rebecca denying her food she wanted meant she didn't love her, at least not as much as Jack did.

A few people in previous posts have mentioned what Rebecca said about Randall being easier because he didn't recoil at her touch and wasn't surly for no reason.  I think both of those points have been assumed here to refer to Kevin, but I think the "surly for no reason" child she was referring to was Kate.  The camera panned to Kate's face right after Rebecca said that, and by the look on her face, it seemed Kate disagreed that she was surly toward Rebecca "for no reason."

[nexxie]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree.  Jack shouldn't be teaching Kate that food should be used for comfort anymore than Rebecca should be teaching her that food is something to fear.  I just blame Rebecca for the situation more than Jack because of the accompanying message the parents are sending. Jack tells Kate that to him she is the most beautiful person in the world while Rebecca's  message is that Kate is not okay in her present state. It would be great if both parents could leave food completely out of how they interact with Kate.

Jack inadvertently created a fantasy world for Kate, keeping her from dealing with an issue that got bigger and bigger in more ways than one - it might have been more loving to have the girl face reality, as Rebecca tried to do. At least both parents meant well.

[Ohiopirate02]

9 minutes ago, izabella said:

 

A few people in previous posts have mentioned what Rebecca said about Randall being easier because he didn't recoil at her touch and wasn't surly for no reason.  I think both of those points have been assumed here to refer to Kevin, but I think the "surly for no reason" child she was referring to was Kate.  The camera panned to Kate's face right after Rebecca said that, and by the look on her face, it seemed Kate disagreed that she was surly toward Rebecca "for no reason."

I took that a different way.    She did include Kate in her spiel about the Jack-sized hole in the family.  Rebecca's outburst at that point was full of the things a parent might feel, but should never utter to their children because that stuff is so very selfish.  I think Kate hurt for Kevin in that moment.  Their mother just admitted that she never really bonded with Kevin because he didn't want to snuggle as a young child. 

[After7Only]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I just find it increasingly problematic that even if Beth's feelings about something can be viewed as absolutely valid given the context, she'd labeled a bitch no matter what.  She doesn't like Kevin? She's a bitch.  Nevermind that Kevin has been canonically portrayed as an asshole.  She didn't welcome William with open arms and asked how long he was planning to stay?  She's a bitch. Nevermind that the way Randall just invited this stranger into their home with her kids would make any wife wary.   She didn't immediately turn over Deja to her mother when her mom got out of prison?  She's a bitch.  Nevermind Deja's mother cold showed up at their house is the middle of the night with no warning making a scene. 

I find this interesting as well.  Rebecca rarely gets labeled a bitch even though she's had some definite bitchy moments.   Beth has also had plenty of loving and funny moments, but she's still often labeled a Bitch.  

Beth doesn't like Kevin for the exact same reason many of us on the boards didn't like him until we learned more about his issues.  He always appeared to be superficial and selfish.    And as she is not privy to his back story she does  not have reason to think otherwise  

Kevin is ignored because everyone assumes he's fine.   But I also think adult Kevin bears some (not all) responsibility for this perception.  He doesn't like to talk about his feelings.   Kate tried to get him to open up about their father's death, and he shut her down.    When he was a struggling actor he didn't let anyone know how much he was struggling.  Whenever anyone asks him about anything he says he's fine.  Even when he was about to confess his addiction to Randall and chose to keep it to himself when he found out about Kate's miscarriage.  Now it might be a chicken/egg thing that he tried to act like everything was fine because that what he believed thats what everyone expected from him

[Jax7917]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:37 PM, Neurochick said:

I don’t get the Beth hate, just because she’s not over the moon when  it comes to screwed up Kevin.  Yes, we all know how hard it is to be an attractive, wealthy white male in America.

Eh I don't think all attractive white males have it easy just because it fits the stereotype . I think it's all about perspective and everyone's individual lives . I do think the camping scene was a little ridiculous and made Kevin look like a spoiled brat and Rebecca look like she doesnt know how to discipline her kids ... but I did feel bad for him when they were in therapy and Rebecca brought up how hard losing jack was because he'd never see Kate get married or Randall's kids be born ( as contrived as that statement was ) .. and because we've seen Kevin's whole family leave his shows half way through more than once and EveryOne just giving more of a shit about Kate and particularly Randall in general . I think what you said and the general stereotype about white men not having problems makes them feel like they're not allowed to .. and in the end they hold everything in because everyone will call them " just a spoiled white guy " if they show their feelings 

[GodsBeloved]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

But the things I keep coming back to in my mind is that the family looked at Kevin at a superficial level (looks, athleticism, charm) and were a bit jealous of how he seemed to have it all - so they just let him fend for himself.  And the other kids had issues that made giving them attention more natural.  But, IMO, there was real neglect going on.  Jack running off to Kate without so much as an "I'll be back."  Rebecca immediately assuming Kevin has been spiteful to Randall.  There's an edge there that is not pretty.  

And here's the "Life imitating Art" moment: Justin Hartley is literally the ONLY cast member of the main leads who has received zero individual recognition.  He's too pretty.  Awards people apparently only see the superficial with Justin just like the family did with Kevin.  It's a pity.  Because Justin is doing work that is at least on par with Chrissy Metz, Mandy Moore, and Milo V.  Sterling K. Brown is sort of "next level" but Justin is putting out a great performance.  Maybe Ron Howard will actually offer him a job?

Bottom Line:  The family reaction to Kevin's statements was pretty much Exhibit A for the prosecution.  They don't think Kevin is ALLOWED to have problems.  That's just wrong IMO.  To quote Horton: "A person is a person, no matter how small. A person is a person, after all."  

Well said.

Is Kevin less likely than Randall and Kate to go through certain things because he's white, good looking, athletic? Sure.

I'm black, a woman and fat to boot. Does my skinny white counterpart escape some of the things I face? Sure. Does that automatically make her issues less or irrelevant compared to mine? I don't think so.

[NeverLate]

Excellent acting by Hartley/Kevin. Best to date. The writers write for Randall, but Kevin stole that therapy session. Dad has risen to sainthood, he was a functioning alcoholic Rebecca, a good thing for the children to know!

Poor Kate, falling back to her food addiction, cramming the feelings about the baby

I love seeing the other three, minus their partners, drinking beer, talking about the Pearsons no fly zone..

Edited January 11, 2018 by NeverLate

[GodsBeloved]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I am of the mind that Beth wasn't going to be helpful to Kevin's therapy, whether or not she was allowed in the session. Plus, she knew she wasn't going to be helpful because of her feelings. Randall should have recognized that and made up an excuse to Kevin on why she couldn't be there (aka, he could have still used the excuse of Tess not feeling well and Beth deciding to stay home).

I mentioned before that my issue with Beth here wasn't her feelings toward Kevin but the fact that she went with no intention of supporting Kevin. She should have stayed home and Randall should have told Kevin the truth. Hard truths were expressed and if Kevin had to hear that Beth did not want to come and why then so be it.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, After7Only said:

Kevin is ignored because everyone assumes he's fine.   But I also think adult Kevin bears some (not all) responsibility for this perception.  He doesn't like to talk about his feelings.   Kate tried to get him to open up about their father's death, and he shut her down.    When he was a struggling actor he didn't let anyone know how much he was struggling.  Whenever anyone asks him about anything he says he's fine. 

To draw a parallel, I think that to an extent, a lot of this applies to Tess which is why she was silently struggling with her feelings about Deja leaving and why she was upset enough to hide in the back of Kevin’s car. She seems like a smart, mature, responsible girl who does well in school, takes care of her sister, and generally doesn’t cause trouble so her parents assume that she’s fine. Later (after Kevin’s DUI), Beth and Randall asked how she was doing and if she was okay. Tess said they’ve asked her a hundred times a day in the last month and she’s fine. 

[GodsBeloved]

5 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

To draw a parallel, I think that to an extent, a lot of this applies to Tess which is why she was silently struggling with her feelings about Deja leaving and why she was upset enough to hide in the back of Kevin’s car. She seems like a smart, mature, responsible girl who does well in school, takes care of her sister, and generally doesn’t cause trouble so her parents assume that she’s fine. Later (after Kevin’s DUI), Beth and Randall asked how she was doing and if she was okay. Tess said they’ve asked her a hundred times a day in the last month and she’s fine. 

Interesting

[debraran]

I don't think the foster child information was done well, and who knows on the show, how much the kids had to vent feelings or be a part of introduction meetings.etc. Deja did get a lot of attention and then as they bonded, she left. I know it works for some people, but that in and out of the house with young kids, I wouldn't do. It's a roller coaster of emotions and maybe why some hate foster care, you are yanked home to home, sometimes abused, when you aren't, you can't always stay or visit. No easy answers, as the case worker said, but if Randall takes in that young boy, I hope it's to lead to adoption and everyone is on board.

[NeverLate]

19 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I mentioned before that my issue with Beth here wasn't her feelings toward Kevin but the fact that she went with no intention of supporting Kevin. She should have stayed home and Randall should have told Kevin the truth. Hard truths were expressed and if Kevin had to hear that Beth did not want to come and why then so be it.

Beth often bothers me, but I can never pinpoint why...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As Rebecca said when she was talking about how Kevin marched right into kindergarten, it’s easy to think your kid is independent and well adjusted and be proud of them because they don’t seem to need you when they act like they’re fine. 

I’m not blaming Tess for not speaking up because she’s a kid and many children have difficulty or are just reluctant to talk about how they feel, especially when what they’re feeling is complex and not positive. 

[Trillium]

42 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I mentioned before that my issue with Beth here wasn't her feelings toward Kevin but the fact that she went with no intention of supporting Kevin. She should have stayed home and Randall should have told Kevin the truth. Hard truths were expressed and if Kevin had to hear that Beth did not want to come and why then so be it.

I viewed it a bit differently. I think she was wanting to give him a chance, but when Kevin came out it was very much the same old phony Kevin Show, and she took the chance to escape that bull shit. Now he did get real in the therapy session but what she saw was the same old same Kevin. Had she seen some real contrition from him, she might have reacted differently. As always YMMV. 

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, Trillium said:

I viewed it a bit differently. I think she was wanting to give him a chance, but when Kevin came out it was very much the same old phony Kevin Show, and she took the chance to escape that bull shit. Now he did get real in the therapy session but what she saw was the same old same Kevin. Had she seen some real contrition from him, she might have reacted differently. As always YMMV. 

I don't think she wanted to be there, but Kevin's fake BS at the beginning was enough to turn me off. So I get why she took the opportunity to bug off. 

43 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

To draw a parallel, I think that to an extent, a lot of this applies to Tess which is why she was silently struggling with her feelings about Deja leaving and why she was upset enough to hide in the back of Kevin’s car. She seems like a smart, mature, responsible girl who does well in school, takes care of her sister, and generally doesn’t cause trouble so her parents assume that she’s fine. Later (after Kevin’s DUI), Beth and Randall asked how she was doing and if she was okay. Tess said they’ve asked her a hundred times a day in the last month and she’s fine. 

I think you're right - and that this is a big part of the bond Kevin feels with Tess.

49 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I mentioned before that my issue with Beth here wasn't her feelings toward Kevin but the fact that she went with no intention of supporting Kevin. She should have stayed home and Randall should have told Kevin the truth. Hard truths were expressed and if Kevin had to hear that Beth did not want to come and why then so be it.

My recollection, which could be wrong, is that she didn't want to go and that Randall pressured her. 

[MissLucas]

Yeah, Beth made it quite clear she did not want to go and Randall insisted. She even told him that she wasn't going to make it easy for Kevin.

Quote

I'm not making any efforts to hold in my passive-aggressive sighs.

This led to the white people-level repression exchange.

Maybe she should have stayed home - especially since she wasn't supposed to be in the session anyway. Which really should have been explained at least to Toby and Kate. But from a writing perspective getting 'The Others' together and doing their own little therapy session was just brilliant so I'm willing to handwave some of the issues discussed here away. The no-fly zone must cause a lot of resentment and it was great to see those three being able to give some voice to that outside the Jack-Pearson forcefield (well Miguel might never be able to really get out there but still).