S02.E09: Number Two

[ChromaKelly]

3 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Okay, so the dog peed on the floor, and instead of grabbing paper towels to clean the carpet, Kate uses them to wipe the dog? What the hell was that?

THANK YOU! I was so WTF about that. I thought she was getting paper towels to clean up the mess, not the dog.

[Pallas]

5 hours ago, Sammich said:

I think part of my problem is that I just don't understand why the show keeps the singing story line happening.  I think that's the weak link for me, and it's taken me out of being interested in Kate.  

We know that ten-year-old Kate had wanted to be a vet. Rebecca remembered: last night she brought up the vet idea again. But from middle school on, many girls who have always done well in science courses begin to fall behind their male peers. So let's see that.

Let's see Kate, the would-be vet, dealing with the aftermath of having struggled with 10th-grade biology class the year before. Let's see 11th-grade Kate not even enrolled in a science course, and her parents not quite notice, but wonder why she can't draw up a list of possible colleges. Let's see Kate's guidance counselor point out that her transcript doesn't point to any undergraduate science major or minor, and suggest alternatives (none of which are the Berklee College of Music). Let's see Kate have the problem that Rebecca did intuitw, and Who's That Girl described:

Quote

A part of me wishes that she still wasn’t into singing during her teenage years because not having your career set plan at that age is normal but nope... just like Randall and Kevin, she’s already got a set plan too: music. It would have been nice if she was a bit aimless for a bit. 

As a girl, even if you think you hate your mother, you endlessly assess her and compare yourself to her, and cast your odds for fulfillment against what you see of hers. Let's see adolescent Kate pitched back and forth between seeing her mother as a beautiful, wicked enchantress, and as a drudge with nothing the world ever wanted to pay for: only Jack's deluded love. 

Let's see Kate as she is: as anxious as Randall, as angry as Kevin, yet far better than anyone in the house at hiding in plain sight. In less than two years, her two brothers will depart home for different colleges, neither of which will offer Kate the scholarship she expects each of her siblings to receive (or admit her, in the case of the Ivies: including two schools with outstanding vet programs). Let's see Kate as she's about to venture alone into the world, with no world-beating talent like her brothers; with no better prospects than her mother -- no, worse. Much worse. That would be true to Kate, and real to us. 

[Mrs. DuRona]

6 minutes ago, Pallas said:

We know that ten-year-old Kate had wanted to be a vet. Rebecca remembered: last night she brought up the vet idea again. But from middle school on, many girls who have always done well in science courses begin to fall behind their male peers. So let's see that.

Just curious, because my memory may be wonky, but when did Kate say she wanted to be a vet? I recall that was her Halloween costume (before she switched to Sandy from Grease).  But I don't remember her saying that was her aspiration.  I think Rebecca mentioned vet because Kate had seemingly taken ownership of the family dog.

[Conotocarious]

On 11/22/2017 at 9:28 AM, Trillian said:

 

My condolences to both of you on your loss.

Spoiler

The most realistic TV miscarriage I ever saw was on Six Feet Under (do I need spoiler tags for a show that's been off the air for so many years?) when Brenda lost her pregnancy the day before her wedding and opted not to get the D&C right away.  Her comment about getting married while her "baby slowly leaked out" of her broke my heart because it was so much like my miscarriage, which also took several days.

I agree Kate's was unrealistically quick and neat. I was also alarmed last night when the doctor said that she had passed most of the tissue in the shower - "most" is not good enough, since all it takes is a little bit to end up with a raging, and potentially fatal, case of puerperal fever.  Get that woman a D&C and make sure it's all out.

And yeah, Mr. Trillian was also the recipient of the "it didn't happen to your body" scream.  Unfair, sure, since he was grieving too.  But realistic.

I didn’t see Six Feet Under but that sounds so much more on point. And yes the whole point of the D&C is to get every bit to prevent infection! I mean they still could have sent her home but there’s no way she’d be going to sing. She’d have a script for pain meds and instructions to take it easy. For me and my sister it was like  labor cramps. 

I didn’t even here about what the doctor said about her passing most of it in the shower. Whaaaat? That’s not at all realistic. With no spotting or anything ahead of time to tip her off that something was wrong? No way.

if I were a writer I would have done it like this: Kate goes to the bathroom to pee, screams for Toby that she sees blood, they head to ER, they confirm via ultrasound that the baby is no longer alive (this could have been a very realistic and wrenching scene), then she has a D&C. 

I don’t even know why I’m harping in this.  Instead of being affected by anything I was too busy going “nope, that’s not right”.

I am sorry for your loss as well. :(

[pinkglove]

14 hours ago, pianogirl73 said:

I spent most of the episode hating Kate. Teenage Kate was just as miserable as present day Kate and the show has still not given me a reason why. The one thing I took out of this episode is that I really really liked Rebecca! Both as a mother to teen Kate and adult Kate.

Same here! Well, I still didn't completely get over the fact that she didn't tell Randall about William, but I'm almost there. 

I've been thinking about it for quite some time now - despite Kate constantly blaming Rebecca, it's Jack who contributed more to her problems (and I don't mean his death). Rebecca tells Kate that "it's not her (Kate's) job to make her feel better," while Jack somewhat makes it Kate's job to cheer him up. Then, instead of getting a hold of her life, she's living Kevin's and would probably do it indefinitely if he didn't notice and fire her. And overall, she's unable to grasp the fact that she's the one responsible for her life (admittedly, she got slightly better at it lately). I also think that being "daddy's princess" contributed a lot to her... I don't know, being so afraid to get out of the bubble (no pun intended). 

Rebecca's way of dealing with Kate's weight and her passive-aggressive comments weren't perfect, but I suspect that Kate is greatly exaggerating their influence over her situation. 

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, ByaNose said:

OMG! I didn’t cry. Not even once. Is there something wrong with me? It was well acted and sad but I didn’t cry. Maybe, I’m cried out. Maybe, I’m saving them for the holidays. Anyway, I thought it was written well and I liked that Kate didn’t blame Toby. I’m looking forward to seeing Randall’s episode. Hopefully, Deja’s real mother will take her back and we can all move on without Deja around. She’s such a wet blanket. 

On the other hand, this is the first episode where I did actually well up. Maybe because I haven't been cried out. :)

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Toby was great the whole episode, the best I think he has ever been. You could see how upset he was, and how much he tried to help Kate. He also had a great speech after Kate dropped that awful "You didn't lose the baby" line, which I've heard before in miscarriage episodes, and I always hate it. Its true that its probably very hard to lose a child who was in your body, but its still so selfish towards a person who contributed 50% of that baby and who you are supposed to love and be your partner.

When I miscarried during my first pregnancy, the saving grace of it was that my husband and I held each other and cried together. I never once thought it was only my loss, but then again, I didn't blame my body either so I didn't feel that my body betrayed me. I also had been worried I'd talked my husband into something he didn't want - and his grief showed me he did. 

5 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I was cringing when she started to fill the plate; to me it was like watching Kevin and his drug fueled opening scene again just a different drug.  But instead of then seeing Kate eat and cry (as expected) she pushed that plate away which I thought was wonderful.

I like the connection you made with Kevin. Food can be as much a drug as opiates. 

 

5 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

Having had a miscarriage myself (and my sister had two) I found the actual miscarriage scene was more a TV miscarriage and not so much real life. I’m sure everyone’s experience is different but I never had any sharp pains and then boom it’s gone. I was 10 weeks it was like a mini labor and it took a while to actually start. It’s not over quickly if you pass it naturally (I ended up having a D&C but I was miscarrying for nearly a full day before the procedure). So I didn’t think Kate would be running out to sing 12 hours after. She didn’t have a D&C and unless she had been spotting for days or something I find it very unlikely it just happened in the shower. That’s not how they work. I thought this show strove for more realism that that. Took me straight out of it.

I thought so too. My miscarriage was earlier on, I think, but it started with cramps and bleeding and took a few days. It didn't require a D&C (though the doctor did have me monitor myself for symptoms of infection). 

4 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Okay, so the dog peed on the floor, and instead of grabbing paper towels to clean the carpet, Kate uses them to wipe the dog? What the hell was that?

I know, right? I've never ever thought of doing that with any functional animal who peed standing up.

3 hours ago, Qoass said:

I am so gratified that many people did not find this charming. I can be described as a "gatekeeper" in one of my jobs and I get this all the time:  "It's my kid's birthday and I promised her." "I'm a vet just back from Iraq." "I'm undergoing chemo because I have cancer." Yes, I feel terrible for you but you know what? The person making low wages at the door is not the person who decides when to break the rules and making that person feel like an asshole for doing their job makes you an asshole.

I don't think it was supposed to be considered charming, or that Toby was supposed to be right. In my view, this was Toby's own, tightly controlled, breakdown. 

3 hours ago, llewis823 said:

Not sure if he has lost weight or maybe the little curly-cue thing is not as noticeable, or maybe it was just because he wasn't a giant goof-ball in last night's episode, but I did take note that Toby looked almost handsome last night too.

I noticed it too - his hair is shaved close to the skull. Not enough to make him look completely bald, as some men do, but enough to make the curly cue less visible.

The early scenes with happy Kate got to me a bit, because I remember the sudden surges of joy I had with my first pregnancy. After the miscarriage, I never allowed myself to feel that kind of unmitigated joy, but worried through each of my successful pregnancies.

I think Kate was the one to see Jack and Rebecca's embrace because she's the only one who pays attention to them. I saw it as seeing how they hid their feelings from the kids and held on to each other in private (more or less).

[Biggie B]

I thought this was an OK episode. I can hand wave away the portrayal of the miscarriage because how it happened is not as important as the aftermath. As a matter of fact, I thought they might've even opened the episode with Kate in the ER, having already had whatever care she needed. But to me, it was all about the way this awful event affected everyone after the fact, and I thought they did a serviceable job showing that. I agree that Toby's "big and powerful man" speech was cringe-worthy. Jeez - that employee is not psychic, he has NO idea who Toby is or why Toby's so distraught, so threatening him is really pretty crappy. I get it, though - he was freaking out. 

As for Toby's hair, at one point, there was a shot of him from the back (I think when he was getting rid of Kate's little notepad) and I thought his bald spot looked like a yarmulke! I did a double take.

I'm sure it will eventually be shown, but this episode did make me wonder what Kate did in the years after high school that led up to her being a waitress at age 28. I guess we'll find out in due course.

All the salient points I would've brought up have already been discussed, but I will say that I laughed when Kate started wiping up the dog rather than the pee spot. I can recall a moment when our dog vomited and my son was more concerned that she not have any of it on her face than the fact that there was a pile of barf two inches away from him. So I found Kate's ministrations to the dog spot on - she loves that dog and his needs (real or imagined!) come first!

[Blakeston]

46 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Let's see Kate as anxious as Randall, as angry as Kevin, and far better than anyone in the house at hiding in plain sight. In less than two years, her two brothers will depart home for different colleges, neither of which will offer Kate the scholarship each sibling received (or admit her, in the case of the Ivies: including two schools with outstanding vet programs).

I agree with this. here are so many interesting places they could go with Kate - the one out of the big 3 who isn't a gazillionaire with some sort of extraordinary talent. She should be the easiest to relate to. Instead, she's mostly just a void, and the writers clearly enjoy writing for her significant other more than her.

As far as Kevin going to college, I assumed he didn't end up getting a scholarship. He was just starting to talk to representatives of football programs when he had his career-ending injury.

[Cardie]

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

TeenKate watching Jack and Rebecca hug-- I read that as Kate seeing that the brave face her parents were putting on was a facade.

That was how I saw it.

5 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Okay, so the dog peed on the floor, and instead of grabbing paper towels to clean the carpet, Kate uses them to wipe the dog? What the hell was that?

And cleans him on the living room sofa! Either take him outside or into the bathroom.  Not that dogs don't lick themselves clean pretty efficiently.

[Mldh598]

16 hours ago, kittyglitter said:

Although certainly saddened by what happened with the miscarriage, I was left wanting more from this episode. We got to know Kevin and what makes him tick on a whole different level last week, and was hoping we would get similar with Kate. I did like how Kate finally "needed her mother," and was pleasantly surprised that Rebecca's unannounced visit did not end in Kate being snippy and sullen with her.

I wanted to learn more about teen Kate other than she wanted to go to Berklee, loved her dog, and was kinda broody. It disappointed me that other than the Berklee thing, the 90s part of the episode was a just a replay of last week's episode, but from Kate's perspective. I can see why TPTB did this, but I wanted more Kate, I guess.

Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one who walked away wanting more. Last week I felt like the history of Kevin made us understand him better (we always knew some stuff, but it seemed to "make sense' more after watching last week). I was hoping for an equally deep episode with Kate, but feel that we didn't learn enough about her. Still a good show of course! =)

[CountryGirl]

As much as the episode was all things Kate, I felt it shed even more light on Rebecca.

Her lines to a teenage Kate about being a mother (and being a different mother from the one who raised her):

"I always wanted to have a daughter because I wanted to do it a different way. I wanted to be the mom that had her arms wide open just waiting for you to fall in if you needed it… and somehow I don’t know, we just never got there, did we?"

Until they did, when Rebecca flew across the country to be with her grieving daughter.

When Kate opened the door, thinking it was Toby, and found her mother standing there, her arms open wide..my throat and eyes filled.

And her living the concluding words she spoke to a teenage Kate about a mother's love as she stepped forward to hold her daughter:

"It’s my job to stay here with my arms wide open for you to fall into if you need to and even if you don’t need to…because that’s what it means to be a parent."

Rebecca was the very person Kate needed but didn't know she needed until she was there, collapsing in her eyes, and by this point, I am full-on ugly crying and I'm not a crier.

I wish we had gotten a little more insight on why Kate has such issues with her mother (I suspect it's the age-old angst of daughters not measuring up to not only their mother's expectations, but their mothers, themselves), but moments like they just shared tonight, showed they aren't so far apart after all. There was pain and grief but also some healing.

I also kind of loved Toby and I never thought those words would leave my keyboard. 

[MartyQui]

Quote

 A Catholic, a priest told me that years ago, the baby had to take a breath after birth to be buried

Luckily, not true.  My grandmother and my aunt both had stillborn babies who have graves.

[NeverLate]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

It was so unnecessary having him actually go in the warehouse, not one bit believable and his single-mindedness could have been shown some other way. 

Likewise Rebecca and her onion breakdown.  When I've had grief hitting me moments, they've mostly been at home but when they strike in public I get in my car or just away from people.  In this case, I don't fault the manager for not running around looking for onions, he was looking at a customer shrieking at another one, and didn't she even grab the woman's cart and push or pull it?  Yeah, she needs to just leave.  I liked Toby's devotion and I get Rebecca's reckoning with loss, but they don't have to involve bystanders.  It's more dramatic than having Rebecca start crying in the shower, or showing Toby waiting by the front door, but I call it overkill. 

When my father was dying, I misplaced my passport, and misplaced my landed immigration status.

 

I lost it in a way I never knew I had in me. I yelled, I mean I yelled to the point she called security. Then I sort of fell apart and landed on the floor sobbing. As usual the government wasn't being helpful, and said I needed to come back in ****** weeks, I said my father doesn't have  weeks. Once in that puddle, someone came to me, took me to have my photo taken, imagine that photo!! and said dont line up, just come to me, I did and everything was given to me on a temporary basis..

My point is, when you are grieving, or know a loved one is on their death bed, your body, your mind doesn't know how to respond, add to that, no sleep etc..and I can see why Rebecca respond how she did and also how Toby did..

If you had seen me, you might have said , overkill. and I admit to be embarrassed now, now that its over 15 years later..but at that time, the one and only thing that mattered was my father, and getting to him

Edited November 22, 2017 by NeverLate

[Armchair Critic]

7 hours ago, himela said:

My mom doesn't forgive me for being overweight and not social like she is

Are you me? My mom has always been the popular girl and though she would never admit it I know she is embarrassed that I am not the same. So I get the mother/daughter dynamic on this show.

[himela]

17 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Are you me? My mom has always been the popular girl and though she would never admit it I know she is embarrassed that I am not the same. So I get the mother/daughter dynamic on this show.

We (You and me) and everyone else like us should not be ashamed for being the way we are cause all people are beautiful just the way they are inside and out.

Though with the scene of teen Kate telling her mom she didn't tell her about her trying to get into music school because she was scared her mom would be disappointed, Rebecca saying "if I'd be disappointed I'd be for you, not for me" and Kate saying "sometimes it feels the same thing" I cried a lot. :/

Edited November 22, 2017 by himela

[mcgkgm]

I knew this episode was going to destroy me, and boy did it, coming and going. I expected to be torn up over the miscarriage, but the mother/daughter stuff got to me in a big way, too.

They may not have gotten all the details of the actual miscarriage right, but I thought they handled the aftermath and emotions pretty well.  Particularly concerning Toby.  So often the partners' share of the loss is overlooked; I'm ashamed to say I was a bit guilty of that myself.  My therapist had to be the one to call me on that bs, so I'm glad Toby stood up for himself (with Kate; I agree he was an unnecessary dick to the delivery guy).  But I also understand how Kate was too wrapped up in her own grief and processing of it.

I wish they were handling her character better.  She comes across so awful.  I can actually really relate to a lot of things about her (insecurities, mother issues, and now losing a baby, plus being the same age), and so I'm able to kind of view her through that filter and say "oh, ok, I understand that action/decision" even when I think it's a poor choice.  But really, we the audience need to SEE that more.  I feel like her character really got shorted in the development department.

22 minutes ago, himela said:

Rebecca saying "if I'd be disappointed I'd be for you, not for me" and Kate saying "sometimes it feels the same thing" I cried a lot. :/

This completely gutted me as well.

[ShadowFacts]

31 minutes ago, NeverLate said:

When my father was dying, I misplaced my passport, and misplaced my landed immigration status.

 

I lost it in a way I never knew I had in me. I yelled, I mean I yelled to the point she called security. Then I sort of fell apart and landed on the floor sobbing. As usual the government wasn't being helpful, and said I needed to come back in ****** weeks, I said my father doesn't have  weeks. Once in that puddle, someone came to me, took me to have my photo taken, imagine that photo!! and said dont line up, just come to me, I did and everything was given to me on a temporary basis..

My point is, when you are grieving, or know a loved one is on their death bed, your body, your mind doesn't know how to respond, add to that, no sleep etc..and I can see why Rebecca respond how she did and also how Toby did..

If you had seen me, you might have said , overkill. and I admit to be embarrassed now, now that its over 15 years later..but at that time, the one and only thing that mattered was my father, and getting to him

I get your point, and I sympathize; I lost my father less than a month ago.  I recognize I am not myself, I've done things like lock myself out of the house which I haven't done in 25 years, almost drove away with important papers on the hood of my car.  And of course break down sobbing.  A lot.  I guess my personal style is not to want to draw attention to myself in public so my instinct is to get out of a public situation before losing it.  No one way is right, of course.  Sometimes we lose control.   I just recognized that Rebecca could have turned her attention back to her three infants and gotten out of the store, and Toby could have waited at the apartment to intercept the package because that's what I would have probably done.  That, and I'm irked by melodrama on this show.  I identified more with the delivery guy and the onion woman than the protagonists.  I might be a grinch of some sort. 

[Pallas]

2 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

when did Kate say she wanted to be a vet? I recall that was her Halloween costume (before she switched to Sandy from Grease). 

Jack said she'd gone trick-or-treating as a vet for a few years in a row, which sounds like a determined aspiration. And no dime-a-dozen choice. Maybe that, and all Kate's nurturing of "her" dog this episode, are meant only to set up her begging Jack to save the dog from the fire. But I think a kid who trick or treats as a vet over succeeding Halloweens is a kid who wants to be a vet.

[BonnieD]

Quote

I spent most of the episode hating Kate. Teenage Kate was just as miserable as present day Kate and the show has still not given me a reason why. The one thing I took out of this episode is that I really really liked Rebecca! Both as a mother to teen Kate and adult Kate.

All this. I'm sick to death of the "sullen teenager" trope. My three daughters didn't act like that, though they had moments. Overall we got along pretty well and now they're in their twenties and thirties we get along GREAT! It seems like Kate got stuck in sullen mode and never grew the hell up. To be thirty-something and still behave the way she does about her mom, rolling her eyes and "putting up" with her rather than embracing the love she always shows, is bullshit. There's no reason that we've been shown for her to be the sour, snotty, selfish woman she appears to be. Often when Toby does something nice or expresses an opinion she says something snide. She is not a generous person IMO. 

As for Toby going on the quest to stop the bath from being delivered. I understand the point as far as constructing an episode of a dramatic show--they had to have something for Toby to do to show how he's suffering too, but  it was just so stupid. His behavior with the delivery guy reminded me of everything I hated about Parenthood--the family members always acting as if they were special snowflakes and their needs trumped everyone else's. Intercept the delivery and return the damn thing. Jeez! it's not rocket science.

 

Quote

 I'm irked by melodrama on this show.  I identified more with the delivery guy and the onion woman than the protagonists.  

You're not a grinch. just a normal, sensible person who doesn't think the whole world revolves around them

Edited November 22, 2017 by BonnieD

[MoonMountain]

8 hours ago, Duckie30ca said:

Unpopular opinion...

 

But this ep made me like Toby and hate Toby. I think the actor did a great job and he and Chrissy Metz did a fantastic job showing how a couple in a miscarriage tends to grieve in a parallel way. They are tiptoeing around each other and don't want to upset the other.  That was realistic to me. 

 

BUT - when he broke out the "this happened to me too" I immediately noped because I VIVIDLY remember having that conversation with Mr Duckie a few months after my third miscarriage and SCREAMING about how it wasn't HIS body betraying him. I acknowledge it was his baby too but it is just not something a man can understand. Toby has grief. I get that. I wish HE had someone else he could talk to...a guy friend or whatever because at 12 hrs post-miscarriage it's kinda all about Kate right now.

Granted, I've never had a miscarriage (or been pregnant for that matter), but as a woman...I would have liked for Toby to just give Kate some space for the first day or two. I know everyone grieves differently, and although they are in it together, Kate has the additional aspect of having this affect her physically. I did like that Toby tried to discourage her from going to her gig. I get that she wanted to move on and not think about it, but getting up in front of people in public is different than like, running errands or something. 

 

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

It was so unnecessary having him actually go in the warehouse, not one bit believable and his single-mindedness could have been shown some other way. 

Agreed. I find it highly unbelievable that one could just drive up to where they sort and load packages at a FedEx. Surely it would be gated, and would be accessible to authorized vehicles and individuals only. Otherwise how easy would it be for people to show up all the time and steal packages???

That being said, I did like that they showed a very modern scenario regarding the package delivery and the subsequent panic one might go through knowing you can't avoid it. But yes, they could have done this in a different way. Maybe that means he sits outside all day and waits for FedEx, or he could have left a note on his door saying he's refusing the package and to return it to sender. I guess that would't be dramatic enough for this show though.

[NeverLate]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I get your point, and I sympathize; I lost my father less than a month ago.  I recognize I am not myself, I've done things like lock myself out of the house which I haven't done in 25 years, almost drove away with important papers on the hood of my car.  And of course break down sobbing.  A lot.  I guess my personal style is not to want to draw attention to myself in public so my instinct is to get out of a public situation before losing it.  No one way is right, of course.  Sometimes we lose control.   I just recognized that Rebecca could have turned her attention back to her three infants and gotten out of the store, and Toby could have waited at the apartment to intercept the package because that's what I would have probably done.  That, and I'm irked by melodrama on this show.  I identified more with the delivery guy and the onion woman than the protagonists.  I might be a grinch of some sort. 

Toby didnt know when Kate would be home, he had no way of knowing when to intercept that delivery of said package. Karl, was helpful with the package all it took was a quick scan, we never know what the other person is going through. I cant speak to the onions, she lost it, as some of us are apt to do, because we aren't perfect..I'm sorry for your loss

Quote

You're not a grinch. just a normal, sensible person who doesn't think the whole world revolves around th

But some of us are in control at such times, others, like me, are not. This is us..:)

Edited November 22, 2017 by NeverLate

[Cyranetta]

Quote

I like the connection you made with Kevin. Food can be as much a drug as opiates. 

And it also reinforces their twinship.

One thing the focus on Kate made me realize more than before is how well the young actress who plays teen Kate is able to match Chrissy Metz' facial expressions and give a believable amped-up teen version of adult Kate's sullenness. I could almost believe that they had been able to take a time machine back and capture a younger Chrissy Metz for those scenes.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, NeverLate said:

When my father was dying, I misplaced my passport, and misplaced my landed immigration status.

I lost it in a way I never knew I had in me. I yelled, I mean I yelled to the point she called security. Then I sort of fell apart and landed on the floor sobbing. As usual the government wasn't being helpful, and said I needed to come back in ****** weeks, I said my father doesn't have  weeks. Once in that puddle, someone came to me, took me to have my photo taken, imagine that photo!! and said dont line up, just come to me, I did and everything was given to me on a temporary basis..

My point is, when you are grieving, or know a loved one is on their death bed, your body, your mind doesn't know how to respond, add to that, no sleep etc..and I can see why Rebecca respond how she did and also how Toby did..

If you had seen me, you might have said , overkill. and I admit to be embarrassed now, now that its over 15 years later..but at that time, the one and only thing that mattered was my father, and getting to him

 

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I get your point, and I sympathize; I lost my father less than a month ago.  I recognize I am not myself, I've done things like lock myself out of the house which I haven't done in 25 years, almost drove away with important papers on the hood of my car.  And of course break down sobbing.  A lot.  I guess my personal style is not to want to draw attention to myself in public so my instinct is to get out of a public situation before losing it.  No one way is right, of course.  Sometimes we lose control.   I just recognized that Rebecca could have turned her attention back to her three infants and gotten out of the store, and Toby could have waited at the apartment to intercept the package because that's what I would have probably done.  That, and I'm irked by melodrama on this show.  I identified more with the delivery guy and the onion woman than the protagonists.  I might be a grinch of some sort. 

I had a similar thing happen, @NeverLate, only mine involved my dying brother and an airline that wouldn't honor a flight change I'd made online. I didn't make a scene - but it was a superhuman effort not to. 

It's not about making it about ourselves, I don't think, it's about how grief breaks our controls and we do and say things we wouldn't normally do. It's hard to remember that sometimes, it's just that people have had too much to handle that day. Doesn't make it right, but it does make it human. 

On the other hand, I was raised by a man who had no controls - and for him, it was always certainly about himself. So it's hard to know. Some people are just assholes, some people are in too much pain.

[BoogieBurns]

14 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Who had a mother like Rebecca? I sure didn't. 

I did. I do. My mom is beautiful, feminine, and openly flawed in trying to be a perfect mother. She makes everything better, even if I spent many of my formative years hiding things from her or being a jerk to her. She was always ready to catch me, arms wide open. But I don't feel at all competitive with my mom. We are very different and she's one of my best friends. She texted me after the episode last night saying "you are so Kate, if Kate was a mama's girl."

Rebecca and Jack are believable to me because my parents were and are a lot like them. Randall and Beth also remind me of my parents when I was little; mom always put on the bandaid, and dad always made up an owie song to distract me from the pain. 

[NeverLate]

20 minutes ago, BoogieBurns said:

I did. I do. My mom is beautiful, feminine, and openly flawed in trying to be a perfect mother. She makes everything better, even if I spent many of my formative years hiding things from her or being a jerk to her. She was always ready to catch me, arms wide open. But I don't feel at all competitive with my mom. We are very different and she's one of my best friends. She texted me after the episode last night saying "you are so Kate, if Kate was a mama's girl."

Rebecca and Jack are believable to me because my parents were and are a lot like them. Randall and Beth also remind me of my parents when I was little; mom always put on the bandaid, and dad always made up an owie song to distract me from the pain. 

I wanted a mum like yours. Mine wasn't  a 'my arms are always open type.'  I think sometimes we parent how we were parented, and I wasn't that mother either. My son forgave all that, my daughter did not. 

My daughter is very prickly , like Kate, I hold some of that blame.

Quote

On the other hand, I was raised by a man who had no controls - and for him, it was always certainly about himself. So it's hard to know. Some people are just assholes, some people are in too much pain.

I was raised by a very strict , but hard working father, who had a quick wit and was a pleasure to be around. People liked being around him, even though, at times, he was too honest for his own good,. Especially as I got older, he and I grew closer. I miss him, every single day. I have never felt grief like I did when he passed.

[NeverLate]

Sorry, wrong place..?

Edited November 22, 2017 by NeverLate

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

  I identified more with the delivery guy and the onion woman than the protagonists.  I might be a grinch of some sort. 

I think it's just a matter of our own experience.  I once had a job where I had to close an ATM machine every day at 2:45 and not bring it up again until 3:00 while totals were gathered and the date changed.  If I had let anyone use it during that 15 minutes it would have messed up the whole system, deposits might have been lost and I would definitely have been fired.  Everyday people begged me to let them use it, told me  stories about planes they had to catch, and called me a bitch.  Once I had to turn away a general and the colonel who watched treated me to a lecture saying, "You don't respect anyone, do you?"    When the writers of this show portray people like the man from the distribution center as  a guy who made an exception because he had a kind heart, it just tells me they have never had to work for a big corporation that wouldn't blink twice before firing them over a broken rule.  Maybe we should have a flash-forward of that man going home and telling his wife that he lost his job and their kids wont have any Christmas.

[debraran]

I"m glad others were a bit let down in Kate's background being  kind of lame. Maybe in Randall's story, it will elaborate more (or we will see more dog peeing) but it seemed like the writers couldn't think of anything and they had a large empty slate.  They alluded to Kate gaining a lot of weight after Jack died and it being her balm on the show and in interviews. I still have a problem with 20 years of that without help. She is being depicted as a normal size 12, maybe 14, at 17. When they show Chrissy in her 20's, she is much, much larger. She also never seemed to have any friends (unless I missed that) Maybe she refused help but I'm interested in how they are going to write this missing part. She is more than her weight but they pretty much show her singing or eating and I'm glad in this past show, you got to see her acting like an adult and having forgiveness for her Mom and hopefully herself.

I feel there is a lot of explaining to do with her and how her family treated her or helped each other and I hope we see that soon.

Edited November 23, 2017 by debraran

[Biggie B]

Quote

I"m glad others were a bit let down in Kate's background being  kind of lame.

I agree. I don't feel I have any more insight into Kate than I did before. Oh sure, we got a few tidbits but nothing we probably didn't already assume. Or, things that weren't much of an "ah HA!" Like Kate applying to Berklee - we already knew that she was into singing, so applying to that school isn't filling in much of a blank. Now, we don't know if she ever made it there or if she did, how long she lasted, but it's not much of a revelation. We already knew that Kate's relationship with her mother was very strained. So even though there were a couple of interesting moments from the past - Kate witnessing her parents' hug in the hospital parking lot, for one - I don't feel as if I know Kate any better. More to come, I hope.

[wallofsound]

I found it gross that Kate and Toby retrieved the shower curtain from the top of the dumpster.   I wouldn’t want anything back in my home that spent time on a dumpster.   

[Blakeston]

4 hours ago, BonnieD said:

It seems like Kate got stuck in sullen mode and never grew the hell up. To be thirty-something and still behave the way she does about her mom, rolling her eyes and "putting up" with her rather than embracing the love she always shows, is bullshit. There's no reason that we've been shown for her to be the sour, snotty, selfish woman she appears to be.

I think the idea is that the trauma of Jack's death caused both Kate and Kevin to be stunted, and so they've never matured beyond their teenage years.

I've known adults who behaved like children because something traumatic happened to them at a young age, so I can believe Kate and Kevin acting that way. I just don't see much reason to care about them. It sucks that they had such a terrible experience, but that doesn't make their selfish, impulsive, oblivious behavior endearing.

One thing that really appealed to me about this show when I first started watching it was that it's a drama about people who mean well. So, so many TV writers fall back on making all or most of their characters amoral assholes. (I assume it's because they do it because it's easy to write drama-filled plotlines with lots of twists and turns when your characters do whatever the hell they please.)

And so it was so refreshing to see characters like Randall, Jack and Rebecca, who are flawed but genuinely care about doing what they think is right. It seemed like Kevin and Kate fell into that category, too. But not anymore. Why have they been given so few redeeming qualities?

[Nire]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

Jack said she'd gone trick-or-treating as a vet for a few years in a row, which sounds like a determined aspiration. And no dime-a-dozen choice. Maybe that, and all Kate's nurturing of "her" dog this episode, are meant only to set up her begging Jack to save the dog from the fire. But I think a kid who trick or treats as a vet over succeeding Halloweens is a kid who wants to be a vet.

I feel like a lot of kids want to be vets without understanding all that is involved.  Thinking it's just playing with cute animals and maybe making them take their medicine.  I can't see Kate putting animals to sleep or having any interest in many additional years of schooling.

I liked the episode but would have liked had they not done the same few days of Kate as a teenager.  I feel like they tried but so much had to still be focused on Kevin.  Kate didn't experience a defining moment.  I think showing her grieving the loss of the baby compared to the loss of Jack lile shortly after he died would have made for a better episode.  

[fallgold]

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but I noticed that when Jack and teen Randall got to the hospital, Randall looked over at teen Kate and she shook her head no. She also looked like she was about to say something after Rebecca said that she'll understand when she's a mom one day. I wonder what that was about. I hope it's brought up in Randall's episode.

[voiceover]

The show started with a shocker per ep: Jack & Rebecca are actually in the 1980s, birthing the babies we see as adults; Miguel is with Rebecca; Jack is dead!

They’ve gotten away from that, probably a wise choice.  IIRC, the last one of those was the reveal that the two judges were colleagues.

But I’m always a bit tensed for the twist.  For the unexpected choice.  Which I got with Kate’s reaction to her mother’s “onions” story.

When Rebecca started off with, “Ohhh...I know this pain too; blahblahKyle...blahblahRandall...blahblahonions...”, I thought, Crap.  Kate’s going to explode; going to yell at her mother, “Stop trying to make this about you!”

But to my surprise, she didn’t.  She listened to the whole story — she let her mother tell it! — and then there was hugging and crying.

Phew.

25 minutes ago, fallgold said:

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but I noticed that when Jack and teen Randall got to the hospital, Randall looked over at teen Kate and she shook her head no. [...] I hope it's brought up in Randall's episode.

Yes!  I saw that too.  I was also curious about the moment Kevin was wheeled out.  He & Randall exchanged...fist bump-y thing...*before* he turned to his twin.  And it looked like Jack & Rebecca noticed that, and glanced at each other. 

Small bits, but I’m with you.  They felt “telling”, and I hope it’s explained.  Because the last time we saw teen Randall & Kevin together: not so collegial.  Last year, during “Jack Pearson’s Son”, teen Kevin saw his brother weeping over the paper, and didn’t go to him.  So any gesture between the two feels surprising.  Welcome, but surprising.

[colorbars]

My interpretation of the point of Kate seeing Jack/Rebecca hugging in the parking lot was to parallel with her comforting Toby in the present. I'm not sure what the significance would be for teenage Kate in that moment, why she looked at it so meaningfully (though if I had to guess, I'd assume it was her seeing Rebecca with her 'open arms' comforting Jack, like she just talked about while they were waiting), but I think the purpose of showing it in this episode was to lead into her hugging Toby to her after Rebecca left for coffee after their fight.

Edited November 25, 2017 by colorbars

[Superpole2000]

I dislike (maybe even hate) Kate. Two parts of this episode really reinforced this for me:

1. Kate telling Toby, "It didn't happen to you, it happened to me." That is somewhat true, but it is completely mean to say to the father. Toby deserves better than that.
2. Kate HANGING UP on her mother after reporting the miscarriage to her over the phone. Her mother was mid-sentence, and Kate just hung up without saying anything. There is nothing in their past that would drive that behaviour other than Kate being a completely awful person.

[JimmyStewartonMars]

3 hours ago, fallgold said:

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but I noticed that when Jack and teen Randall got to the hospital, Randall looked over at teen Kate and she shook her head no. She also looked like she was about to say something after Rebecca said that she'll understand when she's a mom one day. I wonder what that was about. I hope it's brought up in Randall's episode.

It's almost a mirror of the very ending of Kevin's previous episode - Kevin arrives at Randall's doorstep, his one last hope. But instead of revealing his own pains, it's interrupted by that of another sibling.

Really interested for next week's - a secret that Kate knows means Rebecca is also aware, and occurred between Randall and Jack. Maybe Randall witnessed Jack whacking a mafia guy on their college road trip.

[kittyglitter]

16 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I just kept thinking "who the heck puts the dog on the sofa, on it's back no less, to clean the pee off of it"? 

The dog has been showcased several times lately in several episodes, I'm wondering if the dog is instrumental in some way to what happens in the future with Jack or Kate or the house burning down? 

I guess because he's a longer-haired doggy, the pee is retained in his fur and he gets icky "down there"? As mom to a long haired kitten who has not quite grasped the self-grooming concept, I have wiped him down, but not on his back on the damn couch. That is nasty and made zero sense, and is even weirder to me because we saw the exact same scene two weeks in a row, which means I didn't just imagine it the first time I saw it, and probably will see it next week as well! Given how this show loves foreshadowing, the way Kate cleans the dog's pee must mean something very important! I want answers! :)

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

I dislike (maybe even hate) Kate

That line made me realize that as many times as I've disliked Kate (almost always) I've never tipped over into hate and that must be because when I see Kate, I also see 8 year-old Kate at the pool and little toddler Kate.  That's unique to this show.  I've always believed you could love anyone if you saw them as a child. Thinking of little, frightened eyed Charlie Manson being neglected by his mother and shoved off to institutions has always kept me from hating him, so seeing the big three as children will probably save them from anything the writers cook up for them.

[himela]

10 hours ago, wallofsound said:

I found it gross that Kate and Toby retrieved the shower curtain from the top of the dumpster.   I wouldn’t want anything back in my home that spent time on a dumpster.   

It's supposed to mean something. That they were the winners of this war even though they lost the battle. That they are strong enough to go on with their lives without changing a thing. The old curtain will be there to remind them that this is life but they are strong and they love each other enough to be able to see this curtain and never forget this incident.

[himela]

6 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

1. Kate HANGING UP on her mother after reporting the miscarriage to her over the phone. Her mother was mid-sentence, and Kate just hung up without saying anything. There is nothing in their past that would drive that behaviour other than Kate being a completely awful person.

I know it's hard to explain that but at the moment I WAS Kate. This is exactly how I would behave with my mom. And I regret it and I suffer about it all the time. Does this make me an awful person? Of course it does! And I make myself pay for it every day. Kate could not bear her mom comforting her. She could not handle that she is such a failure while her mom is such an angel. It's weird mother - daughter relationship that I'm going through through therapy at the moment that's why I'm so sure of how she felt. :/

[debraran]

22 hours ago, llewis823 said:

In the onion scene, why were Kevin & Kate the only babies in the cart? Why did Rebecca say did I ever tell you the story of when you and Kevin were about 6 weeks old?  If they adopted Randall and took him home from the hospital with them as they have shown they did in Season 1, why wasn't Randall in that cart too when they were 6 weeks old? Mistake in continuity of writing or did he get taken away from them around that time? I think it's just a mistake in writing myself.

Randall was there too, I saw him! : )

[topanga]

14 hours ago, BonnieD said:

I'm sick to death of the "sullen teenager" trope. My three daughters didn't act like that, though they had moments. Overall we got along pretty well and now they're in their twenties and thirties we get along GREAT! It seems like Kate got stuck in sullen mode and never grew the hell up. To be thirty-something and still behave the way she does about her mom, rolling her eyes and "putting up" with her rather than embracing the love she always shows, is bullshit. There's no reason that we've been shown for her to be the sour, snotty, selfish woman she appears to be. Often when Toby does something nice or expresses an opinion she says something snide. She is not a generous person IMO. 

The thing is, many teenagers are sullen—or at least moody and withdrawn when they’re around their parents. 

I have teenage boys, and while they do talk to me about their wants, their desires, and their feelings, I have to ask for it. They’re not too forthcoming with their deep feelings. And I know things about them I never would have whenever I overhear—okay, eavesdrop on—their conversations with friends.

The thing is, I don’t think teenage Kate has close friends—at least I haven’t seen any. The last time I saw her with close friends was at the birthday party where her friends ditched her for Kevin. I wonder if that’s a pattern that has persisted  

Otherwise, she wouldn’t be sitting down to watch her own school’s football game with a mother she loathes. She’d be walking around the stadium and hanging out with her friends.

 

13 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

I did. I do. My mom is beautiful, feminine, and openly flawed in trying to be a perfect mother. She makes everything better, even if I spent many of my formative years hiding things from her or being a jerk to her. She was always ready to catch me, arms wide open. But I don't feel at all competitive with my mom. We are very different and she's one of my best friends. She texted me after the episode last night saying "you are so Kate, if Kate was a mama's girl."

Rebecca and Jack are believable to me because my parents were and are a lot like them. Randall and Beth also remind me of my parents when I was little; mom always put on the bandaid, and dad always made up an owie song to distract me from the pain. 

I agree with your assessment of Rebecca—she’s flawed but loves her kids tremendously. And always tries to get it right, even if she fails sometimes. Parenting is hard. And parenting triplets must be especially draining, both physically and psychologically. With Kate, it seems like Rebecca was constantly trying to be the mom that Kate needed—and almost always getting it wrong. Either Kate sees Rebecca as too pushy (the college list, reading the Berklee application, telling her not to clean the dog’s balls on the couch), too self-centered (Kate feeling criticized and judged by her ‘perfect’ mother), too involved with Randall’s needs, or she simply feels like her mother doesn’t understand her the way Jack does. 

But at least Rebecca tried. And I’m especially happy for you (and a little jealous) that you have such a strong, supportive relationship with your mom. 

My relationship with my mother is nothing like that. I mean, my mother is indeed one of the kindest, most pleasant people you’ll ever meet. But she also never made steps to get to know me beyond the superficial. For example, I got good grades in high school, and my mother told me quite often that it meant to her that everything was okay with me and that she never had to worry about me. She didn’t know if I had any friends, if I was on drugs, if I liked playing sports, or if I was suicidal. My mother had no idea what colleges I applied to, and I don’t think she really cared—she wasn’t caught up in the details about me. 

So I applaud Rebecca for giving a damn about Kate, even if her attempts at reaching out weren’t always perfect. 

[debraran]

16 hours ago, MartyQui said:

Luckily, not true.  My grandmother and my aunt both had stillborn babies who have graves.

Yes, but some places said the baby had to be baptized to have a Catholic funeral.  They could have a blessing. I just feel like miscarriage,especially when you go full term, is given a brush off in some ways. Kyle was delivered with the other 2, it just seemed odd to me as a Mom that he was left there and not honored in some way.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

That line made me realize that as many times as I've disliked Kate (almost always) I've never tipped over into hate and that must be because when I see Kate, I also see 8 year-old Kate at the pool and little toddler Kate.  That's unique to this show.  I've always believed you could love anyone if you saw them as a child. Thinking of little, frightened eyed Charlie Manson being neglected by his mother and shoved off to institutions has always kept me from hating him, so seeing the big three as children will probably save them from anything the writers cook up for them.

Whenever I see some awful criminal that people are righteously (and rightly) heaping contempt upon, I always think, "that's somebody's child."

1 hour ago, himela said:

I know it's hard to explain that but at the moment I WAS Kate. This is exactly how I would behave with my mom. And I regret it and I suffer about it all the time. Does this make me an awful person? Of course it does! And I make myself pay for it every day. Kate could not bear her mom comforting her. She could not handle that she is such a failure while her mom is such an angel. It's weird mother - daughter relationship that I'm going through through therapy at the moment that's why I'm so sure of how she felt. :/

I was a snip to my mom more times than I like to admit, and I regret it eternally.  My daughter does the same to me (oh yes, karma).  However I do not think it makes any of us awful people, just human. 

[himela]

20 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I was a snip to my mom more times than I like to admit, and I regret it eternally.  My daughter does the same to me (oh yes, karma).  However I do not think it makes any of us awful people, just human

What I find human is the fact we aknowledge it and apologize. When we see what we are doing and keep doing it I find this to be bad and to have no excuse.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, wallofsound said:

I found it gross that Kate and Toby retrieved the shower curtain from the top of the dumpster.   I wouldn’t want anything back in my home that spent time on a dumpster.   

I didn't see them throw it out there.  Why would they do that?  Was it just one more reminder?  Maybe they should remodel the bathroom or move out.   I haven't miscarried but I have a feeling you don't just forget it by removing the visible reminders.  And a new shower curtain and rod would remind me more than just re-hanging the old one.  

Even chasing down the package was weird to me.  Mark 'return' and drop it off at the UPS Store.  That might've been a more poignant scene, for me. 

12 hours ago, Nire said:

I feel like a lot of kids want to be vets without understanding all that is involved.  Thinking it's just playing with cute animals and maybe making them take their medicine.  I can't see Kate putting animals to sleep or having any interest in many additional years of schooling.

Or think it's dabbing their undersides with paper towels.  Weird that dog-lover Kate has no pets as an adult.  

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

 I've always believed you could love anyone if you saw them as a child. Thinking of little, frightened eyed Charlie Manson being neglected by his mother and shoved off to institutions has always kept me from hating him, so seeing the big three as children will probably save them from anything the writers cook up for them.

I used to think that - until I met a 5 year old who was already pretty much Manson-lite. He was the younger brother of my daughter's classmate. It was a troubled home, but the classmate was still a salvageable child, as was the youngest. The middle one had the face of an angel but exuded evil. I have never, ever, in my life met a child that gave me chills instead of evoking sympathy. If he's not a serial killer now, I'm sure he's involved in something else criminal. Fortunately they moved away before I could see him grow into it completely.

3 hours ago, himela said:

I know it's hard to explain that but at the moment I WAS Kate. This is exactly how I would behave with my mom. And I regret it and I suffer about it all the time. Does this make me an awful person? Of course it does! And I make myself pay for it every day. Kate could not bear her mom comforting her. She could not handle that she is such a failure while her mom is such an angel. It's weird mother - daughter relationship that I'm going through through therapy at the moment that's why I'm so sure of how she felt. :/

I don't think it's awful to hang up in that particular case, and I'm no Kate fan. It took me aback, but then I thought of the times I had to call with bad news. I managed to squeak out goodbyes before falling apart (so I guess that makes me better?), but I was abrupt because even if I'd somewhat absorbed it, speaking about it in anything other than stating the facts was still too painful, and I didn't want to hear any sympathy. 

2 hours ago, topanga said:

I agree with your assessment of Rebecca—she’s flawed but loves her kids tremendously. And always tries to get it right, even if she fails sometimes. Parenting is hard. And parenting triplets must be especially draining, both physically and psychologically. With Kate, it seems like Rebecca was constantly trying to be the mom that Kate needed—and almost always getting it wrong. Either Kate sees Rebecca as too pushy (the college list, reading the Berklee application, telling her not to clean the dog’s balls on the couch), too self-centered (Kate feeling criticized and judged by her ‘perfect’ mother), too involved with Randall’s needs, or she simply feels like her mother doesn’t understand her the way Jack does. 

But at least Rebecca tried. And I’m especially happy for you (and a little jealous) that you have such a strong, supportive relationship with your mom. 

My relationship with my mother is nothing like that. I mean, my mother is indeed one of the kindest, most pleasant people you’ll ever meet. But she also never made steps to get to know me beyond the superficial. For example, I got good grades in high school, and my mother told me quite often that it meant to her that everything was okay with me and that she never had to worry about me. She didn’t know if I had any friends, if I was on drugs, if I liked playing sports, or if I was suicidal. My mother had no idea what colleges I applied to, and I don’t think she really cared—she wasn’t caught up in the details about me. 

So I applaud Rebecca for giving a damn about Kate, even if her attempts at reaching out weren’t always perfect. 

My mom was like yours, but I liked it like that - mostly because my Dad was totally suffocating. 

Parenting is walking a tightrope. It's hard to hit the sweet spot for each child. One child's over involved parent is just what they need (and appreciate) another's is suffocating and pushy. One child's parent who gives them their space to grow is another's detached and unavailable parent.

I remember trying out various approaches with my kids - they both had very different needs. One kid doesn't hear anything at all until you ratchet it up to get her attention, the other takes even the most neutral comment as a criticism. (which to be fair, it sometimes is, but you can't be direct with her unless she's in a very specific mood). I can't imagine having to negotiate all those needs with three kids who are the same age.

14 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I didn't see them throw it out there.  Why would they do that?  Was it just one more reminder?  Maybe they should remodel the bathroom or move out.   I haven't miscarried but I have a feeling you don't just forget it by removing the visible reminders.  And a new shower curtain and rod would remind me more than just re-hanging the old one.  

Toby threw it out. I don't find it hard to understand, but then I have a habit of throwing out things that remind me of painful moments. You don't forget it - but you don't have a constant trigger around to evoke the memory when you've tucked it away for the moment.  For me, new stuff is mostly neutral. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Paloma]

23 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

On 11/22/2017 at 7:04 AM, sigmaforce86 said:

I was cringing when she started to fill the plate; to me it was like watching Kevin and his drug fueled opening scene again just a different drug.  But instead of then seeing Kate eat and cry (as expected) she pushed that plate away which I thought was wonderful.

I like the connection you made with Kevin. Food can be as much a drug as opiates. 

Absolutely. I eat chocolate in various forms (especially ice cream, M&Ms, and pastries) when experiencing stress or sadness, and I try to hide this behavior from my husband. Occasionally he sees the wrappers or other evidence, and I feel ashamed even though he jokes about it. (He is naturally slim and I am 30+ pounds overweight, so I don't really see it as a joke.) It definitely feels like an addiction and can be almost as difficult to break as alcohol and drugs--maybe more difficult in some ways because food is part of everyone's daily life. I consider it a victory when I bring home some form of chocolate and eat part of it but then put the rest down the sink disposal or in the garbage, instead of eating it all as I usually do. So I was applauding Kate for walking away from the full buffet plate and hope this eventually leads to a breakthrough in her eating habits.

[doodlebug]

On 11/22/2017 at 9:01 AM, wallofsound said:

That’s about it in a nutshell, isn’t it??  She’s just not that interesting to me.  Plus she’s all quiet and barely reacts to things.  Just not entertaining to watch her.   And I hate the way she says “Tobe” constantly.   

Speaking of ‘Tobe’, it’s not that hard to intercept a package at your own house.  I do it constantly to hide things from my husband.   

 

I’m still sorta wondering why a pessimistic, high risk pregnant woman in her FIRST trimester is ordering something so esoteric as a baby bath thingy at that point.  It’s not something she’s going to need immediately or something they won’t be able to live without.