S08.E04: Some Guy

[Eulipian 5k]

So the guys, in charge of the guns, just spent 1/2 hour in an automatic weapon firefight, and Carol tosses a six shooter and says she's now unarmed??? Those guys will never turn... there's no brain activity left!

[Ocean Chick]

I, too, enjoyed this episode.  Glad to see Carol back in fighting form.  Sooooo glad Jerry is still with us and being a hero.  Soooooooooo glad The King is still alive!  I have to say I've really come to love that guy.  Yes, he's a bit speechifying, but that's because he's found that that is what his people need in times like these.  He's become the person needed, just like Carol has.  And yes, it hurts to lose all those other good Kingdomers.  I love them more than either the ASZers or the Hilltoppers - they really gave us a sense of community and goodness.  And yes, it hurt to see Shiva die after hearing her backstory.  But I hurt more for both Zeke and Jerry having to watch that.  And it's going to kill me to wait through more Negan speechifying and more Rick and more Maggie speechifying before we get back to finding out how Shiva's death affects Zeke.  I truly hope he's not broken, and can pull himself together enough to still be the leader his people need and deserve.

[iMonrey]

See, they could have killed off Ezekial and I would have been fine with it. We've got enough speech-ifying characters as it is. In fact he really should have died. There were just too many split-second last minute saves. 

The tiger death did surprise me though because when he first jumped in I thought "Oh, Shiva to the rescue, zombies are no match" but then I realized, the tiger can't really subdue the zombies by biting them or mauling them because they're already dead so all they have to do is pile on him and start chowing down. In that respect it was someone believable the zombies could take him out.

[meep.meep]

2 hours ago, Boofish said:

Last night my fiance who only watches because of me said "those are some slow zombies" and my response was "it all depends on who they are after"

They may be slow, but they are super good at sneaking up on people from behind!  

[LadyMustang65]

When Shiva died, I told my husband, "This show is dead to me."  And he came back and said, "Yeah, and next Sunday you'll be right there on the couch watching."  And he's right.  Flaws and all, I still love this show, because when it's good, it's really good, and when it's bad, it's still better than a lot that's out there.  And because they have made me really care about some of these people - like Glen (sob), Michonne, Carol, Jerry, Darryl, Rick, Aaron, Zeke (among others).  Even a character like Father Gabriel, whom I despised at the beginning, is someone I now care about.  It's kind of amazing to me that someone who is basically as minor a character as Jerry had me watching like a hawk every time they scanned the Kingdom dead to see if he was there.  It sometimes makes it all the more frustrating some of the things they do because it could be so incredibly amazing, and yet there are times I just want to throw things at my television.  But last night wasn't one of those times.  I was so sad that Shiva died and so sad for Zeke.  Yeah, he talks a lot, but he's a really good person trying to create a good, safe place for his people, and if there was any doubt what kind of a leader he is, it was dispelled when you saw how readily and quickly his people jumped to save him.  And he's the kind of leader who grieves when the people who trusted him and followed him are hurt.  And I grieved to lose all those good people.  The Kingdom is the community I have loved the most (outside of our original group), and it just kills me to see them decimated like that.  

Loved seeing Carol back at the top of her game.  Loved the car chase.  While I hated that Shiva died, I loved that she died saving the man who had saved her - repaying the favor, as it were.  (But I won't forgive them for killing her off.  I wanted to see her take one of those big ole paws and just decapitate zombies left and right to get out of there.  :(  I also really wanted her to eat Negan, and that won't happen now.  Also :(  )  Like others, my heart went out to Zeke and Jerry especially having to watch her die.  

So far, while I hate the jumps around in time, I am enjoying watching the plan come together.  It seems like an actual, thought-out plan that could stand a reasonable chance of working (unlike a couple of others).  So, yeah, hubby's right - I'll be back watching next Sunday.

[Blinkoshuman]

I cannot believe how hard I ugly cried over the death of a fake CGI tiger.  

[Dobian]

So long, Shiva.  I knew you were going to be doomed at some point but was hoping it would be later rather than sooner.  And this again takes me right out of the story immersion.  A 400 pound cat with teeth and claws up against a shambling mob of dead people with atrophied muscles and ligaments and they not only overpower it but tear through its tiger hide with human teeth and human biting force and start devouring it.  I've really had it with the writers giving these zombies superhuman abilities.  If that cat was up against the same number of live humans it would have torn them all to shreds.  I'd like to lay out a pig carcass and say to them, okay have at it, you can only use your teeth.  Let's see how far you get.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Dobian

[TigerLynx]

30 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

They may be slow, but they are super good at sneaking up on people from behind!  

To be fair.  It's easy to sneak up on people from behind when they can't shut the fuck up.  Zeke and the idiot Savior had an entire herd of Zombies two steps behind them, and they kept stopping to argue and bitch at each other.

29 minutes ago, LadyMustang65 said:

Loved seeing Carol back at the top of her game.  Loved the car chase.  While I hated that Shiva died, I loved that she died saving the man who had saved her - repaying the favor, as it were.  (But I won't forgive them for killing her off.  I wanted to see her take one of those big ole paws and just decapitate zombies left and right to get out of there.  :(  I also really wanted her to eat Negan, and that won't happen now.  Also :(  )  Like others, my heart went out to Zeke and Jerry especially having to watch her die.  

Shiva deserved a better death.  There's no way I believe she would have been taken out by those Zombies.  There should have been a lot more of them.  A Tiger can take a humans head off with one paw, and can crush a human's skull in their mouth.  There's a reason there's an expression "Man Eating Tiger."

I did like seeing Carol, Rick and Daryl back in action.  Rick's look at Daryl when Daryl told him he looked terrible was funny.

Edited November 13, 2017 by TigerLynx

[Pondlass1]

I don't believe a large well fed tiger could be taken down by a bunch of skinny rotting doofus zombies. Everyone possessed a mouthful of razor sharp teeth before dying? No zombie with dentures or partials? Try biting through a tiger's thick fur to get to flesh with human teeth.  Ain't possible. Maybe if we had fangs, but we don't. 

The thrill is waning. Bring back suspense show..!

[ClareWalks]

Toothy Savior looked like the bastard child of Jim Carrey as Andy Kaufman, and Jeffrey Dahmer.

[meep.meep]

More like Walt Goggins' nephew.  It's those "scary teeth!"

[tricknasty]

16 hours ago, SoSueMe said:

I'm stuck on wig maintenance. Maybe the loss of Shiva will break Zeke to the point that he shaves his head a la Shane.

My grandma's wig looks better than the wigs on this show. Michonne's wig has been steadily declining around her second year on the show and now Zeke. With all the money the show-runners make, why can't they invest in quality wigs? Cheap bastards need to hire better writers as well.

[CrashTextDummie]

It was a surprisingly good episode. The only real blemish was that Shiva's sacrifice seemed awfully unnecessary. What kept them from pulling Zeke out of that ditch in the first place? They didn't do a very good job at portraying the situation as truly dire.

It was kind of similar last week when Aaron left Eric only to do nothing important for the rest of the episode. This show has a lot of issues, but meaningless deaths is a pretty new one.

[Mu Shu]

2 hours ago, heisenberg said:

Also Mike Borden,  the drummer  from Faith No More, same hairstyle.
 

It’s not the hairstyle that’s the problem.  It’s the wig.  The wig is bad.  

[SnarkyTart]

3 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

But I hurt more for both Zeke and Jerry having to watch that.  And it's going to kill me to wait through more Negan speechifying and more Rick and more Maggie speechifying before we get back to finding out how Shiva's death affects Zeke.  I truly hope he's not broken, and can pull himself together enough to still be the leader his people need and deserve.

If Zeke is broken, as I would expect he must be, this would be the time for Morgan to show up at the Kingdom and start the process of scraping both of them off the emotional ceiling and regaining their pychological strength together.  I'd like to see that storyline, so it's unlikely to happen.  But it should.

[Dobian]

5 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

If Zeke is broken, as I would expect he must be, this would be the time for Morgan to show up at the Kingdom and start the process of scraping both of them off the emotional ceiling and regaining their pychological strength together.  I'd like to see that storyline, so it's unlikely to happen.  But it should.

The writers would just have the two of them engage in a dueling monologue contest, normal human conversations are beyond their writing skills.

So where's Michonne, Vegas?  Even the hillbilly psycho who accosted Zeke for part of this episode has had more screen time than she has this season.

[Ocean Chick]

Michonne's actor is busy shooting movies.  I expect that Danai negotiated the time off in order to be in the Black Panther movies and isn't bothered at all that Michonne is off-screen.

[ShadowSixx]

Michonne is still healing from the fight with that Garbage Pail Bitch. 

Writers have two characters in the mourning stage already being Aaron & Zeke. Who's going to be the one that becomes bitchy like Rosita?

[jackjill89]

5 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

When Shiva died, I told my husband, "This show is dead to me."  And he came back and said, "Yeah, and next Sunday you'll be right there on the couch watching."  And he's right.  Flaws and all, I still love this show, because when it's good, it's really good, and when it's bad, it's still better than a lot that's out there.  And because they have made me really care about some of these people - like Glen (sob), Michonne, Carol, Jerry, Darryl, Rick, Aaron, Zeke (among others).  Even a character like Father Gabriel, whom I despised at the beginning, is someone I now care about.  It's kind of amazing to me that someone who is basically as minor a character as Jerry had me watching like a hawk every time they scanned the Kingdom dead to see if he was there.  It sometimes makes it all the more frustrating some of the things they do because it could be so incredibly amazing, and yet there are times I just want to throw things at my television.  But last night wasn't one of those times.  I was so sad that Shiva died and so sad for Zeke.  Yeah, he talks a lot, but he's a really good person trying to create a good, safe place for his people, and if there was any doubt what kind of a leader he is, it was dispelled when you saw how readily and quickly his people jumped to save him.  And he's the kind of leader who grieves when the people who trusted him and followed him are hurt.  And I grieved to lose all those good people.  The Kingdom is the community I have loved the most (outside of our original group), and it just kills me to see them decimated like that.  

Loved seeing Carol back at the top of her game.  Loved the car chase.  While I hated that Shiva died, I loved that she died saving the man who had saved her - repaying the favor, as it were.  (But I won't forgive them for killing her off.  I wanted to see her take one of those big ole paws and just decapitate zombies left and right to get out of there.  :(  I also really wanted her to eat Negan, and that won't happen now.  Also :(  )  Like others, my heart went out to Zeke and Jerry especially having to watch her die.  

So far, while I hate the jumps around in time, I am enjoying watching the plan come together.  It seems like an actual, thought-out plan that could stand a reasonable chance of working (unlike a couple of others).  So, yeah, hubby's right - I'll be back watching next Sunday.

Thank you. It's like you read my mind about the show.  So many people say how bad it is, but while it frustrates me at times, I still like it. I care about these characters. I cared that Ezekiel had his whole act stripped away -- it was so incredibly sad. I do, however, want to know how the Saviors know that Zeke is putting on an act. He's only ever told Carol. 

[FishyJoe]

When Carol what killing those guys inside the building, all I could think of was Krombopulos Michael. 

[sadie]

8 hours ago, Diane M said:

I've always looked forward to Sunday nights when TWD was on, now not so much.  There are just too many characters.  Every year they add a lot more with too many names to remember.  This show jumped the shark for me when Negan appeared.  He is just TOO evil, so evil that it's unbelievable that anyone would follow him.  Why hasn't he been overthrown?  That episode when Glen and Abraham were massacred was just too much, too evil.  I preferred TWD when our little band of characters was on the move, trying to find a place to settle.  They should still be moving with new adventures.  

I was just thinking this. TWD used to be must see tv and now , meh, I can take or leave it. It used to be about a group of people that cared about each other trying to navigate this new world. Now I can’t even tell what’s going on and it’s either no dialogue at all or these horrible speeches. It’s these disjointed places that I can’t figure out if they’re a mile apart or 100 miles. The King is an okay character but at one point I thought he was gonna launch into “I have a dream......” Sigh. 

[Caseyh1981]

I’m pissed!!!!!!!!

[AngelaHunter]

I don't know WTF I just watched. First 6 minutes is filler taken up with a flashback of the King's toilette, oiling his very bad wig before a rousing speech, which I admit I FF.  I've become allergic to speeches. Then a whole bunch of shooting all over the place. The King pulls a "Glenn under the Dumpster" and escapes the zombie pile at the last moment. Surrounded by walkers again, but grabbed by some Neganite, who of course, even in the face of an advancing walker horde, grins evilly, elated by his evilness and looks like an inbred mutant crossed with Gary Busey.

King is saved from mutant at the very last second by Jerry. Then Carol shoots a bunch of guys. Another bunch of guys enter and say, "Aww, let her go." I guess they changed their minds because they find her. Some guy approaches her. Carol, little tiny middleaged women, overpowers this big young guy who obligingly bends his knees so she can grab him around the neck. Neganite shoots him to get Carol because of course all the Neganites are totally heartless even towards their own. The guy has a really dense body because the hail of bullets don't pass through it. Of course Carol gets away at the last moment. She does all this with no special powers or even a Jesus-type Kung Fu skill.

Anyway, Daryl and Rick are chasing some guys in trucks and motorcycle. Neganite in truck can't hit anything even using a machine gun. Daryl and bike take a flyer off the road but of course neither are damaged at all. Rick carries on in and, in a pallid little "Mad Max: The Road Warrior" moment, pulls up alongside bad guy and jumps right into his jeep. Kills bad guy, but he too takes a bad leap off the road. Daryl comes zooming up on his bike and thinks, "Oh, no. Rick dead? No no." Of course Rick comes creeping out of the underbrush, seemingly totally uninjured by this horrific crash.

King, Jerry and Carol trek through the woods. There's some rusty barrels in the stream. They all stop to look at them. Shiva appears out of nowhere and starts attacking walkers. Then this 500-lb, massive, powerful, muscular beast with huge paws loaded with daggers that could fell a bear and a mouth equipped with 3-inch fangs, is quickly overcome by the emaciated, rotting dead and, well, suffers the same fate as all the animals that have ever appeared in this show. Or maybe Shiva just had enough of all these damned speeches and illogical behavior and guns and didn't want to live anymore.

[Nashville]

9 hours ago, heisenberg said:

Also Mike Borden,  the drummer  from Faith No More, same hairstyle.
 

Why yes, I *do* want it all, and I *can’t* have it.  But I can’t say I ever wanted that hair.  ;>

 

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

So long, Shiva.  I knew you were going to be doomed at some point but was hoping it would be later rather than sooner.  And this again takes me right out of the story immersion.  A 400 pound cat with teeth and claws up against a shambling mob of dead people with atrophied muscles and ligaments and they not only overpower it but tear through its tiger hide with human teeth and human biting force and start devouring it.  I've really had it with the writers giving these zombies superhuman abilities.  If that cat was up against the same number of live humans it would have torn them all to shreds.  I'd like to lay out a pig carcass and say to them, okay have at it, you can only use your teeth.  Let's see how far you get.

 

8 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't believe a large well fed tiger could be taken down by a bunch of skinny rotting doofus zombies. Everyone possessed a mouthful of razor sharp teeth before dying? No zombie with dentures or partials? Try biting through a tiger's thick fur to get to flesh with human teeth.  Ain't possible. Maybe if we had fangs, but we don't. 

You’re both making an absolutely understandable mistake - assuming that since a zombie is working with what was (initially, at least) human equipment, the zombie is subject to the same limitations on its use as a normal human would be.  But that’s not the case.

Here’s the thing: even underdeveloped “normal” human musculature is capable of what the mainstream would consider superhuman strength, were it not for a specific limiting factor - the perception of pain.  When a “normal” human’s muscles attempts to exert themselves to the point of injury, the body’s pain receptors kick in as an act of self-preservation - to limit the muscle’s full exercise of its strength potential before it can damage itself.  Zombies lack this pain inhibition, though, so they can fully exert 100% of muscle potential 100% of the time - resulting in feats of strength which on their surface would appear superhuman - without regard for the physiological damage caused by such exertion.

Real-life scientific validation exists for this phenomenon (for lack of a better word) - and in fact, demonstration of such fueled the breakthrough in mankind’s understanding of Hansen’s Disease (leprosy) in the late 1940s.  Dr. Paul Brand’s observation of children exhibiting strength beyond his own adult ability - even to the point of unknowingly mangling their bodies in the process - led him to understand HD was not the “rotting disease” of common thought since Biblical times.  HD’s effect was simply that of nerve death - but the resulting increased potential for unknowing self-injury (which, left untreated through lack of awareness, led to infection and gangrene) engendered the more objectionable traits associated with the disease.

[Ms Lark]

I'm super pissed that Shiva will never have Gregory for dinner. Damn.

[CletusMusashi]

15 hours ago, PoshSprinkles said:

I know! When that scene came up my two adorable housecats were happily munching on their breakfast (I watch the morning after it comes out) and all I could think of was the two of them being cornered by those walkers with no way out and tears just came to my eyes imagining it. 

Yeah, but no actual cat would just lie still like that. Even if Shiva was declawed, the force of her hind leg kicks would be throwing many a zombie off.  The thing that (AGAIN!) kills the pathos for me is that basically her entire death is just Kirkman walking onto the set with a megaphone yelling  "Tiger! Die!"

[CletusMusashi]

9 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

Michonne is still healing from the fight with that Garbage Pail Bitch. 

Yes, but we're still supposed to be fine with the idea that Rick was over it a few minutes after Dumpster Diva shot him.

[Dobian]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

Why yes, I *do* want it all, and I *can’t* have it.  But I can’t say I ever wanted that hair.  ;>

 

 

You’re both making an absolutely understandable mistake - assuming that since a zombie is working with what was (initially, at least) human equipment, the zombie is subject to the same limitations on its use as a normal human would be.  But that’s not the case.

Here’s the thing: even underdeveloped “normal” human musculature is capable of what the mainstream would consider superhuman strength, were it not for a specific limiting factor - the perception of pain.  When a “normal” human’s muscles attempts to exert themselves to the point of injury, the body’s pain receptors kick in as an act of self-preservation - to limit the muscle’s full exercise of its strength potential before it can damage itself.  Zombies lack this pain inhibition, though, so they can fully exert 100% of muscle potential 100% of the time - resulting in feats of strength which on their surface would appear superhuman - without regard for the physiological damage caused by such exertion.

Real-life scientific validation exists for this phenomenon (for lack of a better word) - and in fact, demonstration of such fueled the breakthrough in mankind’s understanding of Hansen’s Disease (leprosy) in the late 1940s.  Dr. Paul Brand’s observation of children exhibiting strength beyond his own adult ability - even to the point of unknowingly mangling their bodies in the process - led him to understand HD was not the “rotting disease” of common thought since Biblical times.  HD’s effect was simply that of nerve death - but the resulting increased potential for unknowing self-injury (which, left untreated through lack of awareness, led to infection and gangrene) engendered the more objectionable traits associated with the disease.

Irrespective of pain, humans have a biting power of about 120 psi, tigers around 950.  Tigers also have large fangs for tearing meat, humans have flat and rounded teeth made for grinding.  In order to generate even that low amount of biting force, the jaw needs healthy ligaments and muscles to function properly, which requires blood and oxygen.  I know its a show and you have to pretend some of these factors don't come into play, and when its people getting overwhelmed by zombies I can suspend the disbelief because it would be pretty impossible to extricate yourself from a mob, but a tiger should be able to cut a couple of dozen zombies to ribbons without breaking a sweat.

[Anela]

There is no shame in crying over an animal. I've done it for mine, when they've been in pain, ill, or passed away. I still cry over those I've lost. 

[Haleth]

I didn't watch this Sun night because I'd been inadvertently spoiled that Shiva was going to die and had to wait to hear other reaction first.  I really hate this event (even though I understand the production problems with a CGI tiger) and I hate that Ezekiel has had a crisis of faith due to losing his people and his tiger.  He needs a hug.  Since the writers insist on separating the characters and only focusing on one or two groups each week, we probably won't see the Kingdom again until after Christmas.  Curse you, writers.

Thank goodness Jerry survived (and was awesome) or I would seriously have thought about pulling the plug.  Carol, Daryl, and Rick were fun to watch in all their kick ass glory too.  I cheered when Carol pulled out the poor meek little woman routine (you guys are so dead) and again during the chase for the guns when Rick swerved out of the way and we saw Daryl aiming for the shooter.  Nice teamwork.

[deemac]

So depressing.  Daryl has been brought down to rock bottom as has Rick.  Now Ezekiel.  Any animal that has poked its nose out dead (couldn't Shiva have devastated Ezekiel by leaving him for another man? (tiger)?)  Now we get Negan next week?

 

I can't.  I just can't.  It's all doom and gloom even those we didn't know about (Morales).  Never once any hope or glimmer of happiness and none anticipated.  I think I need to watch the Grinch.

[AngelaHunter]

7 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Yes, but we're still supposed to be fine with the idea that Rick was over it a few minutes after Dumpster Diva shot him.

And fine with the idea that Daryl has twice (once with the Merletones and then with the Neganites) been brutally gang-attacked, punched, kicked while on the ground and once got only a black eye and then a cut lip? No broken bones, no internal injuries or concussion.

Michonne emerged unscathed after a ferocious beating that would have killed anyone - including having her head rammed through very thick aquarium glass and beaten against a brick wall - by the Gov, a big strong man, but is incapacitated after a fight with some little girl.

And yeah - Shiva. Tyreese, a mere weak (by comparison) human, fought off a whole gang of walkers who had completely engulfed him and emerged triumphant without even a single bite, but a 1/4 ton powerhouse like a tiger, bristling with lethal weapons just lay there and got eaten alive. Even if for some bizarre reason she couldn't rip them all to ribbons (even little domestic tomcats can inflict incredible damage),crush their decaying skulls with a bite (as she did with the very much alive Neganite) or tear their heads off, she could easily have escaped with one leap.

[CletusMusashi]

I don't suppose there was a dumpster nearby, was there?

Wait, scratch that idea. I don't want to hear a CGI tiger saying "Hungry. Roar now."

[iMonrey]

Quote

I've really had it with the writers giving these zombies superhuman abilities.  If that cat was up against the same number of live humans it would have torn them all to shreds.

I think there were a couple of things going on here. In the first place I got the impression Shiva was making a sacrifice to save Ezekial, so she (?) wasn't inclined to just run off and evade the zombies. She was deliberately distracting them so Carol and Jerry could get to Ezekial. In the second place, a tiger would certainly subdue living humans, but no matter how many limbs she tears off the zombies, no matter how badly she mauls them with her paws and jaws, they're not affected in the least. So if a horde of them just starts swarming her and bending down and starting to munch, they could just as easily sever the jugular or another major artery as they would in a human. 

[Raven1707]

The Sunday Cable ratings are in for Episode 804, “Some Guy”:

After two weeks of declines following its season premiere, “The Walking Dead” improved a little in the ratings Sunday night.

The show delivered a 3.9 rating among adults 18-49 and 8.69 million viewers, up from 3.8 and 8.52 million the previous week. [8.688 million viewers]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/sunday-cable-ratings-nov-12-2017/

Here are the Live + Same Day ratings for Season 8 so far:

10-22-17 “Mercy” 11.439 million
10-29-17 “The Damned” 8.923 million
11-05-17 “Monsters” 8.519 million
11-12-17"Some Guy” 8.688 million

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I got the impression Shiva was making a sacrifice to save Ezekial, so she (?) wasn't inclined to just run off and evade the zombies.

Not something any cat would ever do in this world. That's even more unlikely than a tiger being subdued and torn apart by a bunch of rotted corpses when she was perfectly capable of beheading them with one swipe of a paw. If they wanted to make her so uncat-like/untiger-like in every way, why make her a tiger at all? A big dog or two, like an Irish wolfhounds, e.g. would have been more believable, if they wanted a character to have a loyal companion who could run for miles and attack your enemies for you or die for you, simply because dogs are pack animals and cats are not.  I know this show is about non-existent creatures like zombies, but unless the movie/TV show is fantasy, real animals and humans have certain characteristics that are true even in sci-fi. I felt like I was watching "Chronicles of Narnia."  Anyway, I should stop talking about that nonsense.

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 11:47 AM, Nashville said:

The only “appropriate” death for Negan would be for him to be doing his pelvic THRUST! thing at some zombies while he’s speechifying at them, and get his dick bit off.  

What a fitting exit that would be for a 50-year old man obsessed with talking about dicks and balls and bodily functions, like a 13-year old boy. "My dick! My dick!" he would yell in an anguished voice. Oh please let it happen.

[Gobi]

I don't know which I would prefer - Negan dying some horrible death, or living with his tongue torn out.

[Save Yourself]

I’m so surprised there is an overwhelming positive response to this episode on this board as well as in the reviews! I’m usually in the majority here but not this time - I thought the ep was appalling, the worst one this season (which is quite a feat). I was so so bored, there was no tension because of the stupid time jumps which break any momentum; Zeke has become totally annoying with his affectations - hopefully they’ll be toned done now that he’s suffered such a devastating loss; all The Kingdom’s warriors were killed which is so frustrating as it is the only likeable, functional and productive society we’ve come across; and the music through the ep was SO weird! It really took me out of the show, I thought there would have been lots of chatter about it here. It didn’t fit with the usually TWD sound and reminded me of the original Planet of the Apes movie score which was terrific in that film in the 70’s but is incredibly dated now. The only thing that made the ep bearable for me was the cameo by Rick because any ep without Rick sucks for me but the Rick and Daryl bit was bizarre, almost a parody of itself.

I’m so sad that one of my all time favourite shows has become a steaming pile of poo ?, I used to hang out for 1pm on Mondays (I’m in Australia) but now I struggle to remember it’s on; I used to watch the episode the minute it was available then come straight on here and read all your comments in both the pre/during thread and post thread then I would rewatch the episode then watch Talking Dead then Knocking Dead. Now I just about manage to get through the episode and that’s with lots of checking to see how long there is to go. Such a shame. 

[Gobi]

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think there were a couple of things going on here. In the first place I got the impression Shiva was making a sacrifice to save Ezekial, so she (?) wasn't inclined to just run off and evade the zombies. She was deliberately distracting them so Carol and Jerry could get to Ezekial. In the second place, a tiger would certainly subdue living humans, but no matter how many limbs she tears off the zombies, no matter how badly she mauls them with her paws and jaws, they're not affected in the least. So if a horde of them just starts swarming her and bending down and starting to munch, they could just as easily sever the jugular or another major artery as they would in a human. 

I'm not buying it. We've seen normal humans fight their way out of zombie groups no smaller than this, without a scratch. But a 500 pound tiger couldn't?

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, Save Yourself said:

I’m so surprised there is an overwhelming positive response to this episode on this board as well as in the reviews! I’m usually in the majority here but not this time - I thought the ep was appalling, the worst one this season (which is quite a feat). I was so so bored, there was no tension because of the stupid time jumps which break any momentum; Zeke has become totally annoying with his affectations - hopefully they’ll be toned done now that he’s suffered such a devastating loss; all The Kingdom’s warriors were killed which is so frustrating as it is the only likeable, functional and productive society we’ve come across; and the music through the ep was SO weird! It really took me out of the show, I thought there would have been lots of chatter about it here. It didn’t fit with the usually TWD sound and reminded me of the original Planet of the Apes movie score which was terrific in that film in the 70’s but is incredibly dated now. The only thing that made the ep bearable for me was the cameo by Rick because any ep without Rick sucks for me but the Rick and Daryl bit was bizarre, almost a parody of itself.

I’m so sad that one of my all time favourite shows has become a steaming pile of poo ?, I used to hang out for 1pm on Mondays (I’m in Australia) but now I struggle to remember it’s on; I used to watch the episode the minute it was available then come straight on here and read all your comments in both the pre/during thread and post thread then I would rewatch the episode then watch Talking Dead then Knocking Dead. Now I just about manage to get through the episode and that’s with lots of checking to see how long there is to go. Such a shame. 

I had to quote your whole post so I can say "Thank you for writing all that and saving me the keystrokes. Agree with Every.Single.Word (except TTD and Knocking(?)Never watch). "Appalling... boring... stupid... frustrating... annoying... " and yeah, killing momentum is unfortunately the only area in which the writers still do really well.

[Dobian]

The completely illogical and stupid staging of Shiva's death could arguably have been outdone by the stupidest car chase in television history.  A 50 caliber machine gun can take out tanks but that jeep kept on coming.  Every hit would have gone straight through the engine block, and all it managed to do was bust a radiator.  He couldn't even hit Daryl with it at point blank range.  And how was Daryl able to wipe out, get back on his bike, and catch up to them again?  They must have been going 30 miles an hour.  Then Rick pulls up alongside like two cars doing some leisurely cruising.  I was waiting for the other guy to toss him a beer.  The guy doesn't speed up or slow down or swerve into Rick's jeep, just keeps driving a straight line at a steady speed so Rick can make a nice safe jump.  Yeah sure.

[TipseyGirl]

On 11/13/2017 at 9:47 AM, Boofish said:

Or Train to Busan

Ooooh. I am going to have to check that one out!

[iMonrey]

Quote

Not something any cat would ever do in this world.

We're talking about a tiger versus a horde of zombies. I don't think there's any real scientific basis to judge this on.

[Ouisch]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

The completely illogical and stupid staging of Shiva's death could arguably have been outdone by the stupidest car chase in television history.  A 50 caliber machine gun can take out tanks but that jeep kept on coming.  Every hit would have gone straight through the engine block, and all it managed to do was bust a radiator.  He couldn't even hit Daryl with it at point blank range.  And how was Daryl able to wipe out, get back on his bike, and catch up to them again?  They must have been going 30 miles an hour.  Then Rick pulls up alongside like two cars doing some leisurely cruising.  I was waiting for the other guy to toss him a beer.  The guy doesn't speed up or slow down or swerve into Rick's jeep, just keeps driving a straight line at a steady speed so Rick can make a nice safe jump.  Yeah sure.

This to the umpteenth power! My husband has been watching this show since Day One, and he got me into it during Season Two (having DVR'd all the eps so I could watch them and he could "coach" me through them....as in "hold on, he might get out of that tank" and "don't look, something bad is going to happen to the horse"). And even he was rolling his eyes and complaining throughout this episode. Jerry's axe can slice a living human in half but can't break the chain around the fence? Daryl presumably skidded many feet away from his motorcycle after falling at high speed, yet he's right back on the road behind Rick just minutes later. All of those bullets fired, both by Carol, the Saviors and Rick, and not one tire was punctured. And when Rick jumped out of his Jeep (a vehicle which decelerate one iota once he took his foot off the gas pedal) to climb into the Savior's vehicle...well, let's just say the last time I heard such a stream of curse words from Hubby was when I used up the last of the memory on our DVR for a Lifetime Movie and some sports game or other of his didn't get recorded....

 

I miss the old "formula" that used to make me anxious for Sunday nights and new Walking Dead episodes - when it was about a group of people whom we knew well, including some of their back stories. We cared about Hershel. Dale, Glenn, Beth, et al. Heck, even though I hated Lori, at least her misbehavior made for some great tension from week to week. Even when Abraham, Rosita, Eugene joined the group and they found Father Gabriel, the cast had expanded but we could still keep track of the characters and more or less recognized them and "knew" them. These days you'd need numbered jerseys to figure out who's who and who belongs to the Hilltop or the Kingdom or that Oceanside group or is a Savior....  I know the TV show has to follow the comics somewhat, but the cast has become too large and the plot lines too meandering IMHO.

[Dobian]

27 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

We're talking about a tiger versus a horde of zombies. I don't think there's any real scientific basis to judge this on.

Not a horde, just a couple dozen.  We do have scientific basis for cat behavior.  Tigers are predators, they are not going to stop fighting, even when mortally wounded.  That's their nature.  you can watch videos on youtube of them fighting.  We also know the actual power and biting force of tigers.   A tiger will maul a couple dozen unarmed humans to shreds.  Walkers are humans, they don't have any special abilities, and have been shown time and again to be frailer and weaker than live humans and easily dispatched with a knife to the head.  A tiger is 400-plus pounds of muscle, claws, and teeth.  It would have easily ripped through one end of that small mob so it wasn't surrounded anymore and then begun picking them off.  If they had done the scene properly, they would have had the tiger get stuck in the muck so it was immobilized, and all it could do would be to attack the ones in front of it.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

We're talking about a tiger versus a horde of zombies. I don't think there's any real scientific basis to judge this on.

I was referring to any cat sacrificing its own life to save the life of anyone else (a mother protecting her kittens is the only exception), assuming it had the reasoning power to follow that train of thought, which it does not. Never happen. Ever, with any cat. It's not their nature. Even when dogs "sacrifice" themselves to save their owners, they don't have any concept or knowledge of their own impending deaths. It's just an instinct to defend their pack, not martyrdom.

 The expression they gave Shiva as the zombies engulfed her had me rolling my eyes and expecting her to call out in an Aslan-like way, "Run, my children! You are safe now!" That's how ridiculous it was, to me anyway. They can make zombies act however they like, since they're not real and no can argue their behavior. If they want to put CGI animals into this show, at least have them act like what they are. If they're going to have something like an altruistic Disney cat, may as well make it a unicorn or a dragon.

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

The completely illogical and stupid staging of Shiva's death could arguably have been outdone by the stupidest car chase in television history.

I"m tempted to set that scene to "Yackety Sax" but I already did that for "Daryl and Rick's Excellent Aventure" as they chased Ninja Jesus all over the place while the truck sank in the lake.

[raven]

On 11/13/2017 at 0:09 PM, Ocean Chick said:

But I hurt more for both Zeke and Jerry having to watch that. 

I thought both actors were believable in their grief; it was a good episode for both of them.   Jerry knows that Zeke being "king" is because he's some guy the people rallied around.  I think Khary Payton really sold that moment of loss; his beloved friend Shiva as well as all of his Kingdomers.  I hope he can rally back; how do you keep your people going after all your promises and positive talk proved wrong?  The show can be ham handed about it but it is the good moments from Khary, Melissa McB and Cooper Andrews (Jerry) that made it work.

The chase scene was fun and well shot.  I'd rather make fun then worry about whether Shiva's behavior is realistic, why do they have gas, what made the zombies, etc.  if I'm going to watch - just my personal preference.  I care about some of the characters and will hang in there and goof on the other stuff :)

Unfortunately the show will whiplash us away from this episode to more Negan now, yuck.

[Iguessnot]

8 hours ago, Ouisch said:

This to the umpteenth power! My husband has been watching this show since Day One, and he got me into it during Season Two (having DVR'd all the eps so I could watch them and he could "coach" me through them....as in "hold on, he might get out of that tank" and "don't look, something bad is going to happen to the horse"). And even he was rolling his eyes and complaining throughout this episode. Jerry's axe can slice a living human in half but can't break the chain around the fence? Daryl presumably skidded many feet away from his motorcycle after falling at high speed, yet he's right back on the road behind Rick just minutes later. All of those bullets fired, both by Carol, the Saviors and Rick, and not one tire was punctured. And when Rick jumped out of his Jeep (a vehicle which decelerate one iota once he took his foot off the gas pedal) to climb into the Savior's vehicle...well, let's just say the last time I heard such a stream of curse words from Hubby was when I used up the last of the memory on our DVR for a Lifetime Movie and some sports game or other of his didn't get recorded....

 

I miss the old "formula" that used to make me anxious for Sunday nights and new Walking Dead episodes - when it was about a group of people whom we knew well, including some of their back stories. We cared about Hershel. Dale, Glenn, Beth, et al. Heck, even though I hated Lori, at least her misbehavior made for some great tension from week to week. Even when Abraham, Rosita, Eugene joined the group and they found Father Gabriel, the cast had expanded but we could still keep track of the characters and more or less recognized them and "knew" them. These days you'd need numbered jerseys to figure out who's who and who belongs to the Hilltop or the Kingdom or that Oceanside group or is a Savior....  I know the TV show has to follow the comics somewhat, but the cast has become too large and the plot lines too meandering IMHO.

People didn't fall in love with this show 8 seasons ago because it stuck to cliches. Yet these last episodes are mired in it.  A little while ago it was important that Eugene knew how to make a bullet. Now guns and bullets are as cheap as the wind so we can have "action".  That car chase and gun fight worked for the liquid metal Terminator 2, but it doesn't work here. Having Zeke and the Negan nerd just scramble away from walkers and THEN  stop and annoy each other showed a lack of respect for the audience. I also didn't appreciate how long they had Zeke mope about his fallen subjects before trying to scurry out of there. Sure, he's horrified especially after all that chest thumping he just did, but this isn't the Perils of Pauline, so MOVE and cry later.

Shiva? I think Rick slipped out from a bigger group last season when Negan was breaking him. Since Shiva wasn't caught in a bear trap, there was no reason for her to succumb. Nothing stopped her from biting, swatting running or jumping. A few human bites could not incapacitate her like that. 

The only things that saved the episode for me were Daryl and Carol mowing down some saviors although it makes no sense that the rubber tire Carol was ducking behind saved her from all those bullets.

[Nashville]

On 11/14/2017 at 1:10 AM, Dobian said:

Irrespective of pain, humans have a biting power of about 120 psi, tigers around 950.  Tigers also have large fangs for tearing meat, humans have flat and rounded teeth made for grinding.  In order to generate even that low amount of biting force, the jaw needs healthy ligaments and muscles to function properly, which requires blood and oxygen.  I know its a show and you have to pretend some of these factors don't come into play, and when its people getting overwhelmed by zombies I can suspend the disbelief because it would be pretty impossible to extricate yourself from a mob, but a tiger should be able to cut a couple of dozen zombies to ribbons without breaking a sweat.

Not arguing the ridiculousness of the entire setup - just saying zombie hands (of which I was mentally focusing more than teeth) were more than capable of doing lethal damage.  

Which only works if the tiger just sits there and presents itself defenselessly for slaughter.

Which isn't likely in a 500-lb beast which could easily send multiple assailants flying like bowling pins with a simple lunge towards freedom.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Nashville
presents, not prevents. totally changes everthang.

[TigerLynx]

17 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was referring to any cat sacrificing its own life to save the life of anyone else (a mother protecting her kittens is the only exception), assuming it had the reasoning power to follow that train of thought, which it does not. Never happen. Ever, with any cat. It's not their nature. Even when dogs "sacrifice" themselves to save their owners, they don't have any concept or knowledge of their own impending deaths. It's just an instinct to defend their pack, not martyrdom.

 The expression they gave Shiva as the zombies engulfed her had me rolling my eyes and expecting her to call out in an Aslan-like way, "Run, my children! You are safe now!" That's how ridiculous it was, to me anyway. They can make zombies act however they like, since they're not real and no can argue their behavior. If they want to put CGI animals into this show, at least have them act like what they are. If they're going to have something like an altruistic Disney cat, may as well make it a unicorn or a dragon.

I"m tempted to set that scene to "Yackety Sax" but I already did that for "Daryl and Rick's Excellent Aventure" as they chased Ninja Jesus all over the place while the truck sank in the lake.

Dogs have masters.  Cats have servants.  Cats were once worshiped as gods.  Cats remember this and expect to be treated accordingly.  I have no problem with Shiva saving the day by tackling the bad guys and eating them, but there is no way that Zombie horde could have killed Shiva.  A tiger attacking and getting a meal for itself is one thing.  A tiger sacrificing itself for a group of idiot humans is just dumb.

At least in the latest car chase scene Rick and Daryl accomplished something.  Rick, Daryl and Jesus idiocy with the truck once again demonstrates why no one, including Shiva, should be sacrificing themselves for these morons especially after the lets kill all the windows, but not Negan crap.  They are to stupid to live.

Edited November 16, 2017 by TigerLynx