S08.E17: In Sod We Trust

[mittsigirl]

6 hours ago, lovesnark said:

If Barb had kicked Jenelle out and called CPS to intervene with Jace, Jace would have been bounced from foster home to foster home and in and out of Jenelle's life until he would be considered unadoptable because of his age. That's after the caseworker would have done everything in their power to convince Barb to take him. They strive to place children with family members over foster homes. Barb didn't have the power to sever Jenelle's parental rights and it would have taken years of Jenelle flitting in and out before her parental rights were terminated by the court. I've seen it happen many times. The parent gets chance after chance after chance to get themselves together and when they're not keeping it together, the child is placed in foster care. Only to be uprooted from the foster family again when the parent makes a modicum of an attempt to be a parent. Unfortunately, CPS doesn't swoop in, put a baby in a wonderful family and tell the bio parent to go away. They give the parent way too many chances to turn it around. In the meantime, the child is being bounced from parent to foster family and back again. I just watched this happen with a family from our neighborhood. It took 6 years for the state to finally say no more chances. Now, the child is in his 4th foster family in 6 years and they don't want to adopt him because of behavior problems.

The best thing would have been for Jace to be placed for adoption as an infant. But, Jenelle was the only one with the power to make that happen.

I know lots of people don't like Dr. Phil, but he has stated MANY, MANY times-you do not want to put a child in to the foster care system!! It is as very broken system!! I know we have all likely heard many horrific stories about SOME, not all of them. He has said many times that it is best to try to fix the child's family, first. If Jenelle had been my daughter, with my grandchild, at Barb's age, I could not have put the child in to the system either. I would have bent over backwards to keep it, and hope and pray that my daughter would grow up and become a good mother to her child. You can't say you know how you would handle it until you actually had to decide how to handle it! I would much prefer to retire and live out my 'golden years', but if it came down to my grandchild, those 'golden years' would just have to wait.

And as for Barb having 3 children from her alcoholic abuser husband, how do we know that she wasn't raped during one of his drunken beating sessions? It wasn't called rape back then, if your drunken abusive husband wanted to have sex with his wife. No, the wife had very little say in the matter. And what would a cop do if called by the wife, after the fact? Things were different back then, 30-40 years ago. She is a small woman, maybe she did try to fight him off, we do not know that! We always have the clearest answers, until it happens to us. Human nature, I guess.

[Sprockets]

3 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

If there had been court-ordered visitation (and again, I'm not convinced Jenelle would have bothered), there would have been a schedule, and they could have done drop-offs so that there wasn't the opportunity to fight--none of this incessant "can I see him this weekend" and "you can have him back when you clean up your life." 

Exactly.  I think Jenelle's and Barb's relationship was incredibly toxic long before Jace was born, and when the dynamic changed in regard to his custody it only got worse.  Neither of them knows how to resolve conflicts, to de-escalate situations, and neither of them can seem to do anything but go from 0 to 60 in each other's presence.  Unfortunately this happens consistently in front of children, so this is what the children learn.  Barb does a good job of taking care of Jace's physical needs, IMO, but she can only show him what she knows in terms of emotional stability.  That does not bode well for his future.  

Edited November 4, 2017 by Sprockets
typo

[TwirlyGirly]

7 hours ago, mscav said:

THIS!!!! I used to be a foster parent and this is exactly what would have happened.  When we were going to foster parent classes there was a young man telling us about growing up in the system. He and his brother were placed in foster care when his brother was born addicted to crack and he was 18 months old. He told us how the foster parents were their parents. They were loved and cared for them and were a very happy family. 7 YEARS later, his bio mom get her act together enough that the state gave them back to her at ages 9 and 7. In less then a year they were removed from her custody again but the state refused to put them back with their original foster family because the bio mom complained that they had turned the kids against her and the social worker had stated that they were too close to the kids. They both ended up in group homes and aging out of the system. My best friend fostered and got her son when he was 6 months old. It took 6 years to get bio moms rights terminated so she could adopt. I quit fostering because I couldn't handle how broken the system is. A little boy I had was at a supervised visitation with his bio mom and social worker at her apartment. The social worker and little boy ended up in the ER  from being overwhelmed by the "cleaning fumes" (bio mom was a habitual meth head) and they still wouldn't stop visitation. His dad stepped in and it still took the state 3 years to terminate her rights. They were holding the fact that dad was out of the picture for 3 years against him but kept giving that abusive drug addict "mother" chance after chance. If Barb had not stepped in, Jace would be cycling thru the system and in much worse shape then he is now.

And yet some states have a "three strikes and you're out" law which imposes a mandatory life sentence if you've committed and been convicted of three offenses (to be clear, some states that have this type of laws require one of those offenses to be a serious violent crime - but not all have this requirement).

Why don't we care enough about kids to apply a similar standard to children removed from their parents for neglect/abuse to terminate parental rights, so the child has a better chance of permanent placement with an adoptive family, before it's too late? <SMH>

If a "three strikes" law were in place for parents under investigation by CPS/DCYF, then as long as Barb continued to report Jenelle every time she failed to meet the standards set by CPS, (referring here to my hypothetical scenario in which Barb refused to care for Jace as an infant, and instead contacted the police/CPS when Jenelle took off to party and left Jace behind, got high, etc) Jenelle's parental rights would have been terminated fairly quickly and Jace might have ended up in a stable, loving family while he was still a baby/toddler.

Edited November 4, 2017 by TwirlyGirly

[lovesnark]

17 hours ago, Booted said:

I was under the impression that the courts did not decide as Barb and Jenelle came to a agreement before hand ? 

Attorneys for both sides and the judge that was to hear the case suggested mediation to try to come to an agreement and Barb and Jenelle agreed to it. In cases like this, the attorney representing the one seeking custody (Jenelle) will advise them to compromise if they believe their client doesn't have much chance of getting what they're asking for. Jenelle's attorney was privy to information that would have been brought up if they went to trial. Ensley being born with THC in her system and the ongoing CPS investigation would have been brought up. Jenelle and UBT's criminal histories and drug use would have been brought up. UBT's history of domestic violence assault would have been brought up. Jenelle's lack of being involved in Jace's day to day life, like scout meetings, doctor's appointments, doing homework, school functions, etc would have been addressed. In custody cases where a child has been receiving counseling, the recommendation of the minor child's therapist carries a lot of weight as does the length of time the child has been with the custodial parent or guardian.

When they were both interviewed by MTV producers after it was over, Barb said she was happy because the  outcome was what was in Jace's best interest. She also said a trial would have brought to light a lot of unfavorable information about Jenelle. She said she was glad Jenelle didn't have to go through that. The words won or lost were not said. Over on the other side of the parking lot, UBT is calling Barb a fucking bitch and declaring his hate for her. Jenelle is fake crying over 'losing'. Never once did either of them say Jace's name or what was best for him. It was all about them.

[FozzyBear]

18 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Honestly, as shitty as they are I don't think CPS would intervene for a parent dragging a kid by the arm. Jenelle's had about half a billion calls made on her to CPS thus far and they've never taken the kids. Doris' petition for emergency custody didn't even get approved, so as scary as it sounds, I think you have to be an even lower life form than Jenelle or Dave for the State to step in and remove the kids from the home. Hell, her newborn tested positive for drugs and they still let her walk out the hospital with the baby.

Yeah, it’s not that I don’t have concerns that Janelle and David are abusing the kids (I’m at like 85-95% sure they are), but I can’t think of anything I’ve witnessed on camera that CPS could do much about.

[FozzyBear]

Brianna, Brianna, Brianna. Child Support is not a punishment. You don’t need a reason to file child support papers. She’s so odd about this stuff. Both Devoin and Luis are deadbeats, but Brianna is so all over the place with what she wants. I’m not sure what it is that she’s asking for half the time and I’m much smarter then her baby daddies. I’m not giving Devoin even an ounce of credit because I think he probably said the thing in the preview  to be mean...but he kind of has a point. Brianna doesn’t seem to have any clear idea of what she wants from the father of her children except to be at her beck and call. Oh and to walk around with wads of cash. 

Also, was Brittany wearing pants at the orientation? Does she just walk around in jerseys all the time?

[StatisticalOutlier]

17 hours ago, lovesnark said:

Mike was not abusive (Jenelle has said several times how much she liked him) and Barb kicked him out because he cheated on her.

I'm not inclined to take Jenelle's word on anything, much less someone's character.

[HeySandyStrange]

6 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I'm not inclined to take Jenelle's word on anything, much less someone's character.

I would believe it in this case. If Mike was an asshole, Jenelle would be the first to say something. Anything to make Barb look bad.

[Scarlett45]

14 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I would believe it in this case. If Mike was an asshole, Jenelle would be the first to say something. Anything to make Barb look bad.

We have no evidence to even suggest Mike was an abuser or even a general asshole. Jenelle’s sister stated that Jenelle was spoiled as a teenager, probably because when Barb was with Mike, and the second income was coming in she had more to spend on Jenelle’s wants (and also to ease her own guilt regarding her upbringing). From the early seasons of the show and 16&Preg, Barb and Mike were okay with Jace, and even paying the household bills so long as Jenelle took care of Jace’s physical needs, went to school and stayed out of legal trouble. 

Not to excuse Mike’s cheating but perhaps the stress of all of Jenelle's drama as too much for him and cheating was a sure fire way to know Barb would end it and he wouldn’t be the “bad guy”.  I was sad when they broke up- Barb deserves some happiness too, that that’s life people break up. 

 

I also think often women just CANNOT win. If a woman isn’t in a romantic relationship then she’s a man hating shrew no man would want, if she IS in a romantic relationship then her priorities aren’t correct, she’s man obsessed and needy. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Scarlett45

[DangerousMinds]

And people often want to set up single fathers with mates. Not ok for the single mother to want a new partner, but A-ok for a single father. Such hypocrisy.

[Fosca]

RE:  Janelle being spoiled

I wonder if in the past Janelle could get whatever she wanted from Barb by crying.  That would explain why she keeps saying "My mom sees me crying about not having Jace--why won't she give him back to me?"  

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, Fosca said:

RE:  Janelle being spoiled

I wonder if in the past Janelle could get whatever she wanted from Barb by crying.  That would explain why she keeps saying "My mom sees me crying about not having Jace--why won't she give him back to me?"  

I could see this. Of course no mother wants to see their child cry, and Jenelle seems to have been a manipulative shrew for a while. She probably cried about how she missed her Dad etc and Barb would want to comfort her by buying her something. Other posters have commented that in her 16&Pregnant Jenelle had a car AND a Tiffany necklace, unsual for a teen without a job and who’s only parent worked at Walmart. 

[ReadMeLattice]

On 11/3/2017 at 11:07 AM, HeySandyStrange said:

It might be a generational thing. I just remember Stan coming about because of the Eminem song of the same name, about a obsessed, psychotic fan. So, not a great connotation for people in my age group. I guess the younger folks have turned it around. Makes me feel old at 33 lol.

That's why I do cut Barb a little slack. She seems to be have some self awareness and seems to realize she wasn't the perfect mother or the best choice to raise Jace. She did what she had to for Jace, but I'm sure she wishes there were better options, like a stable, loving adoptive family.

Oh, I didn't know that reference, Eminem was most popular when I was very little. It must have turned into an "ironic"/reclaimed term since then, lol. 

Re: the second paragraph, this is very true. Though she has many flaws, it's not like she went out of her way to adopt a child or something and subject them to her emotional issues. She was absolutely forced into it. 

[Christina87]

7 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

And people often want to set up single fathers with mates. Not ok for the single mother to want a new partner, but A-ok for a single father. Such hypocrisy.

Annnnnnd if you're a woman who is 30 and wants to get married (meeeee), it's "why are you so focused on getting married? Why aren't you totally happy with the way your life is now? You sound kind of needy. You need to figure out why having a family is so important to you."

30-year-old guy says he wishes he was married, and it's, "oh, you're so responsible compared to most men your age! You've got a good job and a house...you'll find her! I'll pray for you, man."

i swear we can never win!

[Christina87]

8 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

Brianna, Brianna, Brianna. Child Support is not a punishment. You don’t need a reason to file child support papers. She’s so odd about this stuff. Both Devoin and Luis are deadbeats, but Brianna is so all over the place with what she wants. I’m not sure what it is that she’s asking for half the time and I’m much smarter then her baby daddies. I’m not giving Devoin even an ounce of credit because I think he probably said the thing in the preview  to be mean...but he kind of has a point. Brianna doesn’t seem to have any clear idea of what she wants from the father of her children except to be at her beck and call. Oh and to walk around with wads of cash. 

Also, was Brittany wearing pants at the orientation? Does she just walk around in jerseys all the time?

These girls are ALL so stupid with child support!!! If I had a baby and the father and I were not living together, you bet your ass I would have him on child support from day one! And I would even do that if we were dating but he didn't want to move in. It's a fair way to have everything set in stone in case our relationship goes south, in my opinion. 

These girls put it off so long because they have hopes of being with the baby daddy and don't want to upset them. They proceed to do ALL the work and bear the total expense of raising a child, and then when they need a lifestyle upgrade, they decide they suddenly need child support. 

Leah suddenly needed more child support from Corey when she and Jeremy bought a new house and had a new baby. Sorry, but if Corey wasn't paying enough, that should have already been dealt with, and if it's about your baby and house...well, you chose those things, and it's not Corey's responsibility. 

Kail and javi suddenly wanted more so they could afford their Pinterest McMansion and private school. 

Briana only wants it from Devoin now that she has a new baby to support. 

Chelsea has no idea how much adam has paid, but I highly suspect she'd be like the others if Randy didn't exist and she was truly dependent on the money. She would have let it slide when she desperately wanted him, even if she was literally starving in the street, but the second Taylor got pregnant, she would have taken him to the cleaners!

[GreatKazu]

Adumb has been in arrears for years now. He has never caught up or been paying regularly, and he had MTV money. He is a drug addict. Other than cars and steroids, his money goes to drugs and lawyers.

 Whether Chelsea had this gig or not, Adumb would not be paying her. Even now with a court order, that slug still cannot be made to pay up. She could not depend on Adumb. 

One thing about Briana is, those two guys have not told her not to file for support. Last I heard, Luis said, "Do what you gotta do" and Devoin sat there and provided Briana with his information so she could submit the child support documents. WTF is she waiting for? 

Edited November 5, 2017 by GreatKazu

[Scarlett45]

31 minutes ago, Christina87 said:Annnnnnd if you're a woman who is 30 and wants to get married (meeeee), it's "why are you so focused on getting married? Why aren't you totally happy with the way your life is now? You sound kind of needy. You need to figure out why having a family is so important to you."

30-year-old guy says he wishes he was married, and it's, "oh, you're so responsible compared to most men your age! You've got a good job and a house...you'll find her! I'll pray for you, man."

i swear we can never win!

And @Christina87 if you’re a woman who’s  32, has no interest in getting married or being in a romantic relationship with a man then you MUST be gay, because what other reason could a woman not want a man?!!! (Nothing wrong with being gay/bi/Pan etc) People cannot wrap their head around such a thing. My personal favorite “but you’re so pretty.” (What does that have to do with a damn thing?!!)

[Christina87]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

And @Christina87 if you’re a woman who’s  32, has no interest in getting married or being in a romantic relationship with a man then you MUST be gay, because what other reason could a woman not want a man?!!! (Nothing wrong with being gay/bi/Pan etc) People cannot wrap their head around such a thing. My personal favorite “but you’re so pretty.” (What does that have to do with a damn thing?!!)

Ughhhhh that sounds so frustrating! Reminds me of high school when if you talked to a male friend, you MUST have a crush on them and need to start dating ASAP!!! If you tell them you're not interested in that person, they seriously can't believe it!

real life is so much like high school. If you want to be married, you're desperate. I'm kind of sensitive because I recently broke up with my AMAZING boyfriend of a year and a half because i turned 30 and he revealed he has no plans to marry or have children, maybe ever. It pisses me off when people say, "see, you were wanting to marry your last boyfriend, but he didn't even work out," (ummmm, didn't work out because he did not want marriage! Not like he was a raging alcoholic or abuser!) or "why break it off? Does a little piece of paper or a family mean that much to you?" YES IT DOES!!!!!! I need to befriend some jenelle leghumpers. They think it's fine that she feels some urgent need to pump out unwanted baby after baby, but apparently some of my acquaintances think a responsible THIRTY year old with a good, stable life who wants them is nuts. 

Annnnnd then you're a lesbian if you don't want to marry. What the hell? Hahahaha I have never assumed that about anybody unless they gave me a more convincing reason than "not dating a man at the moment." And I GUARANTEE you that a 32 or 30-year-old man would not get side eyed at all. Absolutely nobody would care about his romantic status or read anything into it! Wants to get married? He's so responsible! Doesn't want to? Well, the courts favor women in divorce, so again, he is responsible. DRIVES. ME. CRAZY. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Christina87

[Scarlett45]

@Christina87 I’m sorry your relationship didn’t work out, but I really respect you (and others) for knowing what they want and not compromising on major life goals. As painful as it was better to end it than wake up 5yrs later angry at yourself and resentful of him because you “settled”. I firmly believe women and men who want to marry/procreate and all that jazz should find partners that want the same thing! Similar if a certain lifestyle or religious devotion is important to you. 

Yes I get asked about my sexual orientation more often than one would assume, I think there is a bit of racial stereotyping going on (even unconsciously), if a black woman is 32 with no kids she just HAS to be gay. /goodness. Interestingly my lesbian friends have never thought I was gay, neither do gay men, only ignorant straight people (hahaha). 

Back to TM2:

    There’s nothing wrong with a single parent wanting a romantic/sexual relationship or even a PARTNER, but these girls don’t seem to do ANYTHING in a healthy way. I do think Chelsea waited a good while to have Aubree meet Cole and he moved in after they were engaged (I think that’s right) but she’s the only one. Barb may like a male companion, someone to have fun with, but many men her age are either dealing with teens/college kids (if they were an older parent) OR they are grandparents. Barb is parenting small kids all over again, that keeps her busy. I’m sure Barb is also VERY leelry due to her history with Jenelle’s Dad. She wouldn’t want to end up in a position like that again. 

Every poster on this board has probably said that Kailyn having Safe sex while the boys were with their Dads is well within her right, but she didn’t need a THIRD KID by some college loser who had nothing to offer (emotionally, physically or financially). I don’t understand this trend to have a child with every dude you have sex with more than twice?!! Leah is the only one I can see slowing the baby roll, but if she met a man who didn’t have any sons that would motivate her to have more children she cannot deal with emotionally. Granted Roxanne only had two, but as vile as she is, something tells me Roxanne actually did the heavy lifting for her own girls, without her own Mom and sister to help. 

[Sprockets]

9 hours ago, GreatKazu said:

Whether Chelsea had this gig or not, Adumb would not be paying her. Even now with a court order, that slug still cannot be made to pay up. She could not depend on Adumb. 

Well, exactly.  I think most of the women are familiar enough with the system to know that even if they do file for CS they probably won't see a penny.  The system is quick to award it, but there is no way to make these deadbeats pay up.  They work - when they do - for cash, so any income is not documented.  All of them knw the steps to this sick dance.  

9 hours ago, Christina87 said:

And I GUARANTEE you that a 32 or 30-year-old man would not get side eyed at all.

Maybe.  My husband was 42 when we got married, and he hadn't been married before.  He isn't acutely sensitive, but he had experienced some side eye about being single at his age.  It happens. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Sprockets
typo

[Sprockets]

9 hours ago, GreatKazu said:

WTF is she waiting for? 

As far as I can tell she is waiting for one of them to say "But Briana, you are the love of my life, and you don't have to file for CS because [sink to one knee] I want you to be my wife and make me the happiest man on Earth."  

Of course the coven would then snap his neck, pick his bones clean and bury him behind the StopNGo.  

[DangerousMinds]

I have a feeling Chelsea introduced Cole to Aubree very quickly. He didn't move in for a few months but I doubt she waited long to introduce them.

[TwirlyGirly]

43 minutes ago, Sprockets said:

 <snip> I think most of the women are familiar enough with the system to know that even if they do file for CS they probably won't see a penny.  The system is quick to award it, but there is no way to make these deadbeats pay up.  They work - when they do - for cash, so any income is not documented. <snip>

Maybe these women do, but many women don't.

I had an unplanned pregnancy (my first and only) at the age of 38.

As soon as I knew I was pregnant (at two weeks - I knew exactly when I had conceived) I asked the father if he wanted to be involved in his child's life, and he said no. I made the decision to continue the pregnancy and raise my daughter based on whether I could do it ALL on my own, with no expectation of support (financial/physical/emotional) from anyone else. I knew despite any laws governing a parent's responsibilities towards their child[ren], you cannot make someone do something they don't want to do. Deciding to continue the pregnancy and raise my daughter, and putting her health and well-being on the line based on any expectation I would receive help from someone else (including family*, friends, etc.) to do it -people over whom I had NO control - would be terribly naïve of me and unfair to her.  I knew full well even if I filed for child support, there are plenty of ways to get out of paying it. My friends insisted otherwise. But at 38 years old, I had seen what many women had gone through (including those women who told me I should file!) in trying to actually collect child support, and/or get their child's father to fulfill other parental responsibilities. It often resulted in them ranting and raving and being constantly angry and stressed out in front of their child[ren], over and over again, when those responsibilities were not met.  I decided that was potentially more damaging to a child in the long run than not having the father involved at all. Because my daughter's father chose not to be involved in her life, I did not put his name on her birth certificate either. My friends argued against that, too. But had I done that, then he would have certain rights - without necessarily fulfilling any of his responsibilities. We've seen that on TM, TM2, and TMOG.

My daughter just turned 21. She graduated from HS #15 in a class of 375 students. She's a college junior, double-majoring in Psychology and Global Health. She's never been pregnant, done drugs, nor does she have any issues with alcohol. She hasn't been involved in multiple romantic relationships (as a matter of fact, she became involved in her first romantic relationship just a few months ago, and the guy is fantastic!). While it would have been nice to have the support of her father, I was able to manage to provide her with everything she needed (but certainly not everything she wanted) while she was growing up. Yes, I had to make a lot of sacrifices, but I knew that's what I signed up for when I decided to continue the pregnancy. My daughter knows who her father is, and how to contact him should she ever want to (so far, she hasn't). I've never spoken badly about him to her, instead I've told her while he is a very intelligent and talented individual, he does have issues with forming relationships with living things (ANY living thing - which is the absolute truth - and the primary reason I had decided to break up with him the week before I discovered I was pregnant). In other words, his lack of interest in being a father has nothing to do with her personally - it's all on him.

 

TL/DR: When faced with an unplanned pregnancy, the decision as to whether to continue the pregnancy and raise the child should be based on whether YOU have all the necessary resources to do so ON YOUR OWN. Making a decision which is going to require you to rely on the support of other people over whom you have NO control is not fair to the child, and puts the health and well-being of both you, and the child, at risk.

 

*Both of my parents had already passed away years before I became pregnant, and my older brother and sister lived 1500+ miles away and neither had children. My daughter's father's parents lived about six hours away, visited twice in the first two years after she was born, and haven't made any contact since. For several years I sent them letters and pictures every few months, but they never responded to any of them.

[Christina87]

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

@Christina87 I’m sorry your relationship didn’t work out, but I really respect you (and others) for knowing what they want and not compromising on major life goals. As painful as it was better to end it than wake up 5yrs later angry at yourself and resentful of him because you “settled”. I firmly believe women and men who want to marry/procreate and all that jazz should find partners that want the same thing! Similar if a certain lifestyle or religious devotion is important to you. 

Yes I get asked about my sexual orientation more often than one would assume, I think there is a bit of racial stereotyping going on (even unconsciously), if a black woman is 32 with no kids she just HAS to be gay. /goodness. Interestingly my lesbian friends have never thought I was gay, neither do gay men, only ignorant straight people (hahaha). 

Back to TM2:

    There’s nothing wrong with a single parent wanting a romantic/sexual relationship or even a PARTNER, but these girls don’t seem to do ANYTHING in a healthy way. I do think Chelsea waited a good while to have Aubree meet Cole and he moved in after they were engaged (I think that’s right) but she’s the only one. Barb may like a male companion, someone to have fun with, but many men her age are either dealing with teens/college kids (if they were an older parent) OR they are grandparents. Barb is parenting small kids all over again, that keeps her busy. I’m sure Barb is also VERY leelry due to her history with Jenelle’s Dad. She wouldn’t want to end up in a position like that again. 

Every poster on this board has probably said that Kailyn having Safe sex while the boys were with their Dads is well within her right, but she didn’t need a THIRD KID by some college loser who had nothing to offer (emotionally, physically or financially). I don’t understand this trend to have a child with every dude you have sex with more than twice?!! Leah is the only one I can see slowing the baby roll, but if she met a man who didn’t have any sons that would motivate her to have more children she cannot deal with emotionally. Granted Roxanne only had two, but as vile as she is, something tells me Roxanne actually did the heavy lifting for her own girls, without her own Mom and sister to help. 

I can see that. From my perspective (and j may be way off), I played basketball growing up, with mostly black girls, and almost all of them were gay! Also, I know many black girls who have a lot going for them (college grads, good jobs, good morals, no trouble with the law) who have had a kid or two, completely single, no mention of a dad ever. These girls are more than capable of caring for their children, financially and emotionally, but I can only think of maybe one or two white girls who have done the same thing. If anything, the white single parents I know seem resentful to be in that situation and complain about the dad nonstop, whereas the black girls I know see the kid as a blessing and have no problem stepping up to the plate. Of course, I may be way off, since I am not involved in black culture, and culture in general is so different in different areas of the country. But I can see how people may judge you more harshly and think you're gay based on their own experiences (which they still shouldn't assume, though!). 

I agree with you about Roxanne. I do think that unlike her useless daughter, she was a pretty strong mother and planned to raise her daughters alone. She probably played the "strong single mom" card a lot, and scared off any guy who was interested in her. With every word she says about how much men suck, I picture her thinking every woman watching is going to be like, "yessssss girl! You say it!!!!"

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, Sprockets said:

 

Maybe.  My husband was 42 when we got married, and he hadn't been married before.  He isn't acutely sensitive, but he had experienced some side eye about being single at his age.  It happens. 

Men do get side-eyed for not conforming to the heteronormative ideal but it happens later. At 40 rather than 30, they are seen as “immature” (or gay)  rather than “defective” (or gay) compared to women. I saw a male friend of mine (started out as my realtor) go through this after a broken engagement. People told him it would be better to be divorced than single/no kids in his mid 40s. He couldn’t believe women would rather date a man who was divorced than never married. 

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I have a feeling Chelsea introduced Cole to Aubree very quickly. He didn't move in for a few months but I doubt she waited long to introduce them.

Thanks for the update. 

[Scarlett45]

@TwirlyGirly Thank you for sharing your story. These girls are quick to claim they are doing things “on their own”, but on their own means the FREE help of “Grandma Sue, Uncle Jo, Great Aunt Jane, The Ex (the only person actually required to HELP), Ex’s new flame” and so on and so forth. I do believe it “takes a village”, BUT 1. Not everyone has signed up to be in that village, and 2. The Villiage People are not additional PARENTS (hahahaha joke right there). 

 

I have noticed that outside of Leah and Kailyn (who married Javi) none of the Dads have 9-5 jobs. Don’t MOST people have 9-5 jobs?!! I know there are many industrious people who are independent contractors and self employed, but I think middle America is still usually an employee. How do these people LIVE if they don’t work even minimally?!! Oh wait they work but not in legal capacities than can be mentioned on the show. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

@TwirlyGirly, you've reached boss level awesome! What a loss for the sperm donor and his family that they aren't involved with your amazing daughter!

[heatherchandler]

2 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

...

 

TL/DR: When faced with an unplanned pregnancy, the decision as to whether to continue the pregnancy and raise the child should be based on whether YOU have all the necessary resources to do so ON YOUR OWN. Making a decision which is going to require you to rely on the support of other people over whom you have NO control is not fair to the child, and puts the health and well-being of both you, and the child, at risk.

 

I’m of two minds about this.  I feel like the man needs to at the very least contribute financially, as when you have sex, knowing pregnancy may be an outcome (birth control or not), you need to be prepared for that and both sides are accountable.  If you don’t want to be a father, don’t have sex.  

That being said, it’s true you can’t force someone to be a parent, but it falls on the mother to be the responsible person and the father can duck in and out.  Of course it’s not like the father gets a say in abortion- either forcing the mother to abort or continue with the pregnancy.  If someone is not interested in parenting, It’s probably better to keep them out of the equation.

[DangerousMinds]

These days, some states don't allow the mother to leave the "father" part of the birth certificate empty.

[Sprockets]

1 minute ago, DangerousMinds said:

These days, some states don't allow the mother to leave the "father" part of the birth certificate empty.

Wow.  What if she doesn't know who the father is?  

[BitterApple]

4 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I have a feeling Chelsea introduced Cole to Aubree very quickly. He didn't move in for a few months but I doubt she waited long to introduce them.

I do too. I think she took a page out of the Kim Zolciak playbook: get the guy attached to your kid super quickly so he'd feel guilty if he wanted to leave. Quite frankly, Cole was out of her league. She wasn't about to let him slip through the cracks.

[MaddyMaeboxerbabe]

I went thru Chelsea’s social media after the show resumed filming a little less than 6 mos after chelsea’s birthday.  She had stated that is the day they they first spent time together after seeing each other at the gas station.   On the show Randy kept saying how chelsea waited a long time to introduce aubree to cole.  I think he said at least 6 mos which caught my attention!  On twitter she shared about 6 weeks into their relationship that she and cole were dropping aubree off at her mom’s while they went away for the weekend. Pictures of aubree and cole together  appeared on both of cole’s and chelsea’s SM on Thanksgiving.   

[Emkat]

6 hours ago, Sprockets said:

As far as I can tell she is waiting for one of them to say "But Briana, you are the love of my life, and you don't have to file for CS because [sink to one knee] I want you to be my wife and make me the happiest man on Earth."  

Of course the coven would then snap his neck, pick his bones clean and bury him behind the StopNGo.  

Omg this is hysterical!! I can picture the scene in my head with far too much accuracy!

[GreatKazu]

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

 

I’m of two minds about this.  I feel like the man needs to at the very least contribute financially, as when you have sex, knowing pregnancy may be an outcome (birth control or not), you need to be prepared for that and both sides are accountable.  If you don’t want to be a father, don’t have sex.  

That being said, it’s true you can’t force someone to be a parent, but it falls on the mother to be the responsible person and the father can duck in and out.  Of course it’s not like the father gets a say in abortion- either forcing the mother to abort or continue with the pregnancy.  If someone is not interested in parenting, It’s probably better to keep them out of the equation.

Agree with this. 

I saw far too many dead-beat parents years ago when working with these types of cases. Some were women. The worst case was the father who left the relationship, he left behind a daughter, and moved to another country. He owed over $18k in child support. I spoke with him on the phone a handful of times. He was a jerk. He felt the mother could care for the child on her own. Mind you, the child was already 17 years old. He left the relationship when the child was 10 years old, if I remember right. 

Briana is a different kind of species. She barely knew Luis and Devoin. But she knew enough about Luis in the beginning regarding his other child. She also knows she has her mother and sister who are more than happy to stick their nose in her business and to be her safety net. If she was truly on her own and having to rely solely on her income, I could see her then relying on the tax-payer to support herself, Nova, and her newborn. Not sure about Florida, but here in California if one receives any kind of assistance, they will go after the father of the children that the state is providing services to. If a father doesn't pay back the state, he will get his license taken away and he wouldn't receive his registration for any vehicles he may own. The same scenario that happens if they don't pay court-ordered child support. 

[TheRealT]

27 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

Briana is a different kind of species. She barely knew Luis and Devoin. But she knew enough about Luis in the beginning regarding his other child.

How well did Briana know Luis before she got pregnant? She said that they met in da club and that she didn't think she was going to have sex, so she didn't use birth control (which, duh). That makes it sounds like they had sex at the club or immediately after leaving. Other comments she made sounded like they had dated, albeit briefly, before she got pregnant. Either way, she may not have known that Luis' daughter exists or whether he takes care of her. She only started claiming he was a deadbeat father after they broke up. Before that, she said he had a daughter in NY, but made it sound like he was involved with her. She even encouraged him to play a parental role in Nova's life and said she liked that he always asked about Nova and looked after her and she was going to move in with him with Nova.

Luis doesn't argue much when they accuse and berate him, but I don't take the coven's version of events with him as gospel. They've said over and over that "he hasn't done shit," but he went to prenatal appointments, he was there at Stella's birth, he came over and even spent the night right after Stella was born, he brought diapers. That's a small part of what a baby needs, but it's something and that's just what we've seen on the show. "Hasn't done shit" implies that he hasn't done anything at all to take care of his child. I doubt that he is a great dad, to Stella or to his other daughter, but I think the coven refer to any father who doesn't meet their expectations 100% as a useless piece of shit who does nothing, while they do everything. Considering how Stella was conceived, it was decent of Luis to accept that he was the father without a DNA test and play a fatherly role while Briana was pregnant. As far as they've discussed publicly, he hasn't asked for a DNA test even after Stella was born. And he is always polite to them and he puts up with a lot of verbal abuse and bullshit.

[GreatKazu]

2 hours ago, Sprockets said:

Wow.  What if she doesn't know who the father is?  

Or if they were raped. 

Quote

She only started claiming he was a deadbeat father after they broke up. Before that, she said he had a daughter in NY, but made it sound like he was involved with her. She even encouraged him to play a parental role in Nova's life and said she liked that he always asked about Nova and looked after her and she was going to move in with him with Nova.

I would have to check the episodes on my DVR, but I thought after she severed the relationship, she mentioned to her mother how Luis can't even take care of his daughter. If that is the case, that means she knew at least prior to the break-up about him not taking care of his child, if that is even true. I certainly cannot say and Briana's credibility is not up to par.

Honestly, Luis doesn't offer much on camera as far as any info. He does not argue with anything that is said about him. I don't know if it is because he doesn't want to engage, he doesn't want to defend himself from the accusations, or the accusations are not true. Whatever the case may be, at this point in time Briana needs to either file for support - which may or may not be successful as far as bringing in money - or she needs to get over the fact that these two guys she chose to have children with are not ever going to meet HER AND HER FAMILY'S expectations. Whatever they bring to the table is what Briana will have to work with. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by GreatKazu

[Sprockets]

19 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

. . lshe needs to get over the fact that these two guys she chose to have children with are not ever going to meet HER AND HER FAMILY'S expectations. Whatever they bring to the table is what Briana will have to work with. 

She definitely needs to do this, and she has no choice in the matter.  Other people give what they give.  She needs to have a child support order in place for each of these two guys, in case they get real jobs or win the lottery, but they are clearly not going to give her what she needs or wants or what the children need on an emotional level.  .  

[ghoulina]

8 hours ago, Sprockets said:

As far as I can tell she is waiting for one of them to say "But Briana, you are the love of my life, and you don't have to file for CS because [sink to one knee] I want you to be my wife and make me the happiest man on Earth."  

I don't think that's it. Luis basically said as much - without all the romance and fanfare - she wasn't having it. He said he wanted to be with her, but she declined. Yet, still no CS filing. 

I think it's as simple as this - if Briana files for child support she can no longer whine about not getting child support. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

18 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I don't think that's it. Luis basically said as much - without all the romance and fanfare - she wasn't having it. He said he wanted to be with her, but she declined. Yet, still no CS filing. 

I think it's as simple as this - if Briana files for child support she can no longer whine about not getting child support. 

this made me think...if briana files for CS, she might also get roped into filing custody agreements that could mandate when she must make the kids available to their dads (since CS is calculated partially on time percentage). 

It also limits where she could move without permission from the court (ahem, Kailyn). 

Also, the whining thing rings true...it's so much easier to play the victim when you've done nothing to assist yourself.

[TheRealT]

32 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

Or if they were raped. 

I would have to check the episodes on my DVR, but I thought after she severed the relationship, she mentioned to her mother how Luis can't even take care of his daughter. If that is the case, that means she knew at least prior to the break-up about him not taking care of his child, if that is even true. I certainly cannot say and Briana's credibility is not up to par.

That's my point- either Briana knew that Luis wasn't taking care of his kid while they were "together" but she didn't care/misrepresented the situation because he was taking care of her and her kid OR he does take care of his kid and she unfairly called him a deadbeat. I think it's somewhat subjective whether he "takes care of his child." Some people would say a dad who pays child support and snapchats once a week with his daughter in NY is taking care of her. Some would question why he chose to move several states away from his daughter, why he doesn't visit her more often, why he didn't call on her birthday, etc. and conclude that he's not taking care of his child. From the way Briana described the situation pre-breakup and from Luis' (admittedly tepid) response that he is "there for his daughter" even though he doesn't live with her, I would assume that he does talk to/visit her and quite possibly even pays child support (which could be minimal).

4 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I think it's as simple as this - if Briana files for child support she can no longer whine about not getting child support. 

I also believe that he does give Briana some money, whether it's "as much as he should" or not. There is a rumor that he is a drug dealer, so maybe he gives her cash and they agreed not to talk about what money he is or isn't giving her on camera. I think that Briana and her family are very conscious of their "storyline" as put-upon by deadbeat baby daddies, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if they told Luis not to contradict them when they go off on him because it's all for TV. I think they'd be very pointed about it if he really had never given them a penny for Stella. They say, "you haven't done shit," "you haven't stepped up," and things like that, but never, "You haven't contributed a nickel to take care of your daughter." or "We asked you for $20 for diapers, but you couldn't even do that." I think Briana's "I might put him on child support" is another lame attempt at a storyline, like the "I want to place the baby for adoption" thing.

[AmyFarrahFowler]

9 hours ago, Sprockets said:

As far as I can tell she is waiting for one of them to say "But Briana, you are the love of my life, and you don't have to file for CS because [sink to one knee] I want you to be my wife and make me the happiest man on Earth."  

Of course the coven would then snap his neck, pick his bones clean and bury him behind the StopNGo.  

I cannot stop laughing at the picture of that in my brain.

[lezlers]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 1:50 PM, TwirlyGirly said:

I realize I'm late to the party with this question as it was probably asked - and answered - years ago, but:

What would have happened if Barb had refused to take care of Jace, waited until Jenelle left the house to party, and then either called the police or CPS? Wouldn't Jace have been immediately been put in the foster care system? I'm just wondering how that scenario would have ultimately played out long-term. If Jenelle knew Barb wasn't going to take responsibility for Jace at all, and she'd already been reported for neglect and Jace had been taken away, at that point wouldn't she more or less be forced to either shape up or agree to have Jace adopted?

Oh how I wish she would have done that.  Jace was still little enough to get adopted and probably would've lived a much better life.  Yes, Jenelle would've been given (multiple) opportunities to straighten up, but the ultimate decision would've been made while Jace was young enough to not have any memory of it. Now it's too late.  I totally believe that Barb and Jenelle's co-dependent, toxic relationship has always come before Jace's well-being.   Barb just can't quit Jenelle and Jenelle just can't quit being a fuck up.  The ultimate loser in the whole situation is Jace.  

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

Oh how I wish she would have done that.  Jace was still little enough to get adopted and probably would've lived a much better life.  Yes, Jenelle would've been given (multiple) opportunities to straighten up, but the ultimate decision would've been made while Jace was young enough to not have any memory of it. Now it's too late.  I totally believe that Barb and Jenelle's co-dependent, toxic relationship has always come before Jace's well-being.   Barb just can't quit Jenelle and Jenelle just can't quit being a fuck up.  The ultimate loser in the whole situation is Jace.  

I disagree that Jace would’ve still be little enough to have no memory and be adoptable as an infant or a young toddler. Terminating Jenelle’s rights would’ve taken YEARS. Had it occurred (again, she could’ve kept the boy bouncing in and out of foster homes his entire childhood- until 18) he probably would be the same age he is now, rather than having spent all these years with one person (Barb) he probably would’ve spent years in multiple homes with God Knows Whom. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Scarlett45
Changed “entire life” to “entire childhood”

[DangerousMinds]

Yes, terminating parental rights takes years.

[Enya Face]

16 hours ago, Sprockets said:

Of course the coven would then snap his neck, pick his bones clean and bury him behind the StopNGo.  

Omfg, I’ve been absent from this site for a month or two... but holy shit, this was the gift I happened upon as my first read back. I’m laughing SO hard right now! Christ, I want to make a cartoon of three Harpies acting out this exact scenario.

 

Ahhh, thanks for making me almost piss my pants, Sprockets!

[GreatKazu]

16 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I disagree that Jace would’ve still be little enough to have no memory and be adoptable as an infant or a young toddler. Terminating Jenelle’s rights would’ve taken YEARS. Had it occurred (again, she could’ve kept the boy bouncing in and out of foster homes his entire childhood- until 18) he probably would be the same age he is now, rather than having spent all these years with one person (Barb) he probably would’ve spent years in multiple homes with God Knows Whom. 

 

13 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Yes, terminating parental rights takes years.

Exactly. 

The court system's priority is to reconnect children with their bio parent. Even the worst of parents have rights. As much as it would be assumed Jace would have faired better in the foster system, the reality is, the system is flawed. Here is one story of a girl who entered the system and was in it for ten years with memories of being bounced from one home to another. http://www.npr.org/2013/09/22/225148325/foster-care-in-america-too-many-kids-not-enough-homes

FYI my husband has volunteered for an organization here in our city where money is raised for foster children. One of the girls from this organization grew up in the foster system and all she remembers is being bounced from one home to another for years as she carried a garbage bag full of her belongings.  This money raised by this organization is to help foster children in the United States receive suitcases, duffel bags, and backpacks for their personal belongings rather than putting everything they own in a garbage bag.  The stories this woman has told us about her years in the system is heartbreaking. 

Barb kept Jace from that fate. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by GreatKazu

[Sprockets]

6 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Yes, terminating parental rights takes years.

Not if the parent is buried under a pine tree.  

[AmandaUnbidden]

19 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

 These days, some states don't allow the mother to leave the "father" part of the birth certificate empty.

That's interesting. They wouldn't let me put my child's father on her birth certificate because he wasn't there. It was embarrassing and upsetting for me but it makes sense. I mean if they let a woman put a man's name on the birth certificate with the man not there and no paternity established, what's to stop her from naming some rich millionaire or something. I could see them letting you name your husband if he wasn't present but that's it. 

 Now when you apply for state financial help for your child, they make you name a father and anything you know about him so they can find him and get him to pay the state back.  Of course, they will find him and establish paternity first. But the papers you fill out about the potential father are not legally binding him to that role like a birth certificate could. 

@GreatKazu Sounds like a great organization but so sad that there is a need of it.

I agree that the foster system is incredibly flawed, and I hate that nothing is being done to fix it. These children deserve better. It's considered a psychological trauma anytime a child is removed from their home even in the very best of circumstances. So can you imagine how many different traumas these children go through in their lifetimes going through the system. It's a tragedy. Barb definitely did the only thing she could do and keep Jace. He would've been a million times worse off in the system. 

[bethster2000]

On 11/4/2017 at 2:19 AM, mittsigirl said:

I know lots of people don't like Dr. Phil, but he has stated MANY, MANY times-you do not want to put a child in to the foster care system!!

Google "Logan Marr"

[GreatKazu]

There are also the cases where children in the foster system are missing because CPS doesn't do any follow-ups or visits. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-amissing11aug11-story.html

One of the most infamous cases of these missing children was Rilya Wilson of Miami who has never been located: http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/12/05/testimony-to-resume-in-case-of-rilya-wilsons-death/