S08.E17: In Sod We Trust

[poopchute]

7 minutes ago, Booted said:

And having a good heart or trying does not qualify for taking your daughters child and keeping it when she has her act together more than your other grown children and for that matter you did at her same age.

I’m a little confused by this, maybe I just need clarification on the pronouns.  Does this sentence mean Jenelle has her act together more than her siblings and more than Barbara did when she was Jenelle’s age?

[Booted]

3 minutes ago, poopchute said:

I’m a little confused by this, maybe I just need clarification on the pronouns.  Does this sentence mean Jenelle has her act together more than her siblings and more than Barbara did when she was Jenelle’s age?

Yes 

[poopchute]

4 minutes ago, Booted said:

Yes 

Okay so then obviously I have missed some background on Barb, and maybe someone can direct me to it.  What was Barb doing when she was Jenelle’s age that was worse than being a heroin addict and being arrested more than ten times? I’m seriously asking because I haven’t heard anything regarding this!

Wait sorry I googled and it looks like as of 2015 she has been arrested 15 times, not sure how many additional times between 2015 and today.

Edited November 3, 2017 by poopchute

[Booted]

10 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I realize I'm late to the party with this question as it was probably asked - and answered - years ago, but:

What would have happened if Barb had refused to take care of Jace, waited until Jenelle left the house to party, and then either called the police or CPS? Wouldn't Jace have been immediately been put in the foster care system? I'm just wondering how that scenario would have ultimately played out long-term. If Jenelle knew Barb wasn't going to take responsibility for Jace at all, and she'd already been reported for neglect and Jace had been taken away, at that point wouldn't she more or less be forced to either shape up or agree to have Jace adopted?

Yes she would have probably lost him for a while or maybe forever if she wasn't able to comply with what the state wanted her to do.

[ghoulina]

18 minutes ago, Booted said:

And having a good heart or trying does not qualify for taking your daughters child and keeping it when she has her act together

Except Barb didn't take Jace. Jenelle willingly signed him over. She only began to try and get him back when she was Nathan, because she had this idea of playing happy family. It took her YEARS to actually get her butt in court and the court STILL did not side with her. I don't think having 3 babies by 3 different dads and marrying a man with a history of domestic violence qualifies as "having your act together".

[Booted]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

Except Barb didn't take Jace. Jenelle willingly signed him over. She only began to try and get him back when she was Nathan, because she had this idea of playing happy family. It took her YEARS to actually get her butt in court and the court STILL did not side with her. I don't think having 3 babies by 3 different dads and marrying a man with a history of domestic violence qualifies as "having your act together".

No it is following in her mothers footsteps. 

[druzy]

Just now, Booted said:

No it is following in her mothers footsteps. 

I don't understand. Is it Barb's fault that Jenelle has 3 kids by 3 different dads? 

[Booted]

As I see it there is one thing all these dysfunctional problematic individuals have in common- Barb. 

We can make up scenarios all day about UBT and Jenelle - how about Mike Barbs boyfriend ? 

[Birdee]

3 minutes ago, Booted said:

No it is following in her mothers footsteps. 

For all her faults, Barb raised her own kids. And raised them through a hellish relationship at that. She never turned them over for someone else to raise or went on heroin benders while her mother took care of Jenelle and her sibs. Barb isn't a saint, but Jace would be lucky if Jenelle put half the effort into raising him that Barb put into her kids.

[Booted]

What I think  yes when all 3 of your children are complete wrecks any rational person would have to look in the mirror 

[Christina87]

6 hours ago, CofCinci said:

I sort of give MTV a pass for hiding TR Dues. Let’s face it, WV is a very racist region.  Even in 2015, his safety would be at risk for being in an interracial relationship. 

Even if they had hidden him, my main issue was Leah's season long "poor me, I'm a single mom who's got nobody" tirade. Whatever, Leah. We all knew!

[druzy]

1 minute ago, Booted said:

What I think  yes when all 3 of your children are complete wrecks any rational person would have to look in the mirror 

What about Jenelle's dad? 

[HeySandyStrange]

47 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

What would have happened if Barb had refused to take care of Jace, waited until Jenelle left the house to party, and then either called the police or CPS? Wouldn't Jace have been immediately been put in the foster care system? I'm just wondering how that scenario would have ultimately played out long-term. If Jenelle knew Barb wasn't going to take responsibility for Jace at all, and she'd already been reported for neglect and Jace had been taken away, at that point wouldn't she more or less be forced to either shape up or agree to have Jace adopted?

I'm no expert, but my understanding of the hypothetical situation of Barb not caring for Jace and him ending up in foster care is that, it would likely take many, many, many years before the state would legally terminate Jenelle's parental rights, as long as she refused to surrender him outright. Therefore he'd be bounced between foster homes and back to Jenelle, if she bothered in those years to take him. It would take many years of Jenelle fucking up, neglecting and abusing him, then losing him to system multiple times before she would have lost him permanently. That is just from my limited knowledge, maybe someone who has insight into the child protective system and courts can give better insight.

 

Also, it is not fair at all to compare Jenelle's brother unfavorably to her. He has, according to Jenelle's own words, a severe, possibly schizoid related mental illness. Mental illnesses in that category are devastating and debilitating. It is not the case of being a dysfunctional asshole, like Jenelle and possibly her sister Ashley are. Last I heard, he had to live in a group home, so it is not like he even gets the to have a chance to live a normal life.

Also, mental illness is often inherited, and Jenelle and her sibs have 2, not 1,   biological parents. The father was a violent alcoholic who confessed in an interview a few years ago he couldn't be bothered to try to contact his adult children. Sounds like there mental illnesses could come from him as much as Barb.

Edited November 3, 2017 by HeySandyStrange

[ghoulina]

9 minutes ago, Booted said:

No it is following in her mothers footsteps. 

What footsteps? To my knowledge, Barb only had children with one man. She does not have an arrest record. She has not done hard drugs. The only ways in which the two are alike is poor communication skills. 

 

5 minutes ago, Booted said:

What I think  yes when all 3 of your children are complete wrecks any rational person would have to look in the mirror 

Do we put any blame on their FATHER? Who abused Barb and then abandoned them all? Maybe the damage was done, early on, because of that asshole. 

[Booted]

1 minute ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I'm no expert, but my understanding of the hypothetical situation of Barb not caring for Jace and him ending up in foster care is that, it would likely take many, many, many years before the state we legally terminate Jenelle's parental rights, as long as she refused to surrender him outright. Therefore he'd be bounced between foster homes and back to Jenelle, if she bothered in those years to take him. It would take many years of Jenelle fucking up, neglecting and abusing him, then losing him to system multiple times before she would have lost him permanently. That is just from my limited knowledge, maybe someone who has insight into the child protective system and courts can give better insight.

 

Also, it is not fair at all the compare Jenelle's brother unfavorably to her. He has, according to Jenelle's own words, a severe, possibly schizoid related mental illness. Mental illnesses in that category are devastating and debilitating. It is not the case of being an dysfunctional asshole, like Jenelle and possibly her sister Ashley are. Last I heard, he had to live in a group home, so it is not like he even gets the to have a chance to live a normal life.

Also, mental illness is often inherited, and Jenelle and her sibs have 2, not 1,   biological parents. The father was a violent alcoholic who confessed in an interview a few years ago he couldn't be bothered to try to contact his adult children. Sounds like there mental illnesses could come from him as much as Barb.

We don't know that she would have or would not have straightened up and got him permanently - she's tried pretty hard to get her mother to give her a chance but nothing is ever good enough for Barb. And how do we know Barb won't make same mistake and get another abuser in her life ? We know she's dating and looking

[HeySandyStrange]

6 minutes ago, poopchute said:

That’s what I’m waiting for! The background info that you were referring to when you said Jenelle is more stable than Barb was at her age. I’m genuinely curious! It must be juicy if it’s worse than being a heroin addict with 15+ arrests!

Maybe stable is code word for "has more money"? Because that Jenelle does have-for now. I'd bet my weight in gold, if I had it, that Jenelle's money will dry up quick when TM2 ends and she'll be on welfare in six months or less.

Quote

We don't know that she would have or would not have straightened up and got him permanently - she's tried pretty hard to get her mother to give her a chance but nothing is ever good enough for Barb. And how do we know Barb won't make same mistake and get another abuser in her life ? We know she's dating and looking

What I remember is Jenelle drugged out and chasing after one loser after another as her mom cared for Jace. She had no real interest in having Jace until Nathan put that bug in her ear and now UBT is goading her. On her own she shows very little interest in her first child imo. If her next loser had no interest in kids and didn't want them around, not only do I believe she'd drop the custody battle with Barb, she'd drop Ensley and Kaiser in a hot second with the first people to catch them.

Edited November 3, 2017 by HeySandyStrange

[Birdee]

7 minutes ago, Booted said:

Do you know this as a fact? Has the show shown some background on Barb ?

No, but you can bet your sweet biscuits that if Barb had that kind of background Jenelle and the Soul Mate of the Week would be bringing it up every 3 seconds or so.

[Booted]

3 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

 

 

Do we put any blame on their FATHER? Who abused Barb and then abandoned them all? Maybe the damage was done, early on, because of that asshole. 

And who chose to stay and have 3 children with this person ? Not Jenelle or her siblings 

[CofCinci]

1 minute ago, Booted said:

And how do we know Barb won't make same mistake and get another abuser in her life ?

She is too busy raising her grandchildren and working at the Walmart deli to date.

We know she's dating and looking

Barb wasn't actually dating on her special.  It was producer-driven content.

[druzy]

1 minute ago, Booted said:

We don't know that she would have or would not have straightened up and got him permanently - she's tried pretty hard to get her mother to give her a chance but nothing is ever good enough for Barb. And how do we know Barb won't make same mistake and get another abuser in her life ? We know she's dating and looking

Jenelle is married to an  abuser who takes Kaiser by the arm and swings him out of the way. 

[ghoulina]

4 minutes ago, Booted said:

We don't know that she would have or would not have straightened up and got him permanently - she's tried pretty hard to get her mother to give her a chance but nothing is ever good enough for Barb. And how do we know Barb won't make same mistake and get another abuser in her life ? We know she's dating and looking

Barb has been single for YEARS. She works. And focuses on Jace. Jenelle is with an abuser NOW. She can't stay single for a minute. She always puts men in front of her son. 

Since she signed away custody, it was never up to BARB to give her a chance. The courts had to okay it. They won't. That should tell you all you need to know. 

[druzy]

2 minutes ago, Booted said:

And who chose to stay and have 3 children with this person ? Not Jenelle or her siblings 

Barb worked and saved money to get her children away from him.

[Booted]

1 minute ago, druzy said:

Jenelle is married to an  abuser who takes Kaiser by the arm and swings him out of the way. 

If this was abuse then shouldn't he be in jail? It was on national tv

[CofCinci]

13 minutes ago, Booted said:

What I think  yes when all 3 of your children are complete wrecks any rational person would have to look in the mirror 

One of Janelle's siblings is severely mentally ill with schizophrenia, which is an organic brain disorder like multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s disease.  You could be the best parent in the world, the worst or something in between -- and it has no relation to development of schizophrenia.

[Booted]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

Barb has been single for YEARS. She works. And focuses on Jace. Jenelle is with an abuser NOW. She can't stay single for a minute. She always puts men in front of her son. 

Since she signed away custody, it was never up to BARB to give her a chance. The courts had to okay it. They won't. That should tell you all you need to know. 

I was under the impression that the courts did not decide as Barb and Jenelle came to a agreement before hand ? 

[druzy]

Just now, Booted said:

If this was abuse then shouldn't he be in jail? It was on national tv

Certain states do not allow that evidence to be admissible in court. Otherwise Jenelle and David would be in prison. 

[BitterApple]

Honestly, as shitty as they are I don't think CPS would intervene for a parent dragging a kid by the arm. Jenelle's had about half a billion calls made on her to CPS thus far and they've never taken the kids. Doris' petition for emergency custody didn't even get approved, so as scary as it sounds, I think you have to be an even lower life form than Jenelle or Dave for the State to step in and remove the kids from the home. Hell, her newborn tested positive for drugs and they still let her walk out the hospital with the baby.

Edited November 3, 2017 by BitterApple

[Birdee]

10 minutes ago, Booted said:

If this was abuse then shouldn't he be in jail? It was on national tv

If every time some shit-tacular parenting was captured on video the parents were arrested, we'd live in a much better world. Unfortunately for Kaiser, Jenelle and UBT can claim wonky editing if the films is even admissible. 

Basically, what @druzy said.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Birdee

[TheRealT]

45 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I realize I'm late to the party with this question as it was probably asked - and answered - years ago, but:

What would have happened if Barb had refused to take care of Jace, waited until Jenelle left the house to party, and then either called the police or CPS? Wouldn't Jace have been immediately been put in the foster care system? I'm just wondering how that scenario would have ultimately played out long-term. If Jenelle knew Barb wasn't going to take responsibility for Jace at all, and she'd already been reported for neglect and Jace had been taken away, at that point wouldn't she more or less be forced to either shape up or agree to have Jace adopted?

It depends on the situation and how Jenelle responded. If Barb called 911 while Jenelle was out and said that her daughter had left her baby at her house and she wasn't going to take care of him, the cops would probably show up and talk to Barb/try to get in touch with Jenelle to get her to come home/wait for her to come home. If Jenelle didn't show up for a while and the cops couldn't convince Barb to wait for her to return and work something out (which is what they'd probably try to do), they'd call CPS to take Jace if Barb insisted that he couldn't stay with her and he would go into emergency foster care. Even then, they'd first try to contact Jenelle and if she showed up relatively soon (even possibly day(s) later), they'd probably just give Jace back to her and she'd be free to take him back to Barb's or to a friend's house or wherever she wanted. Depending on the situation, they might open a case on Jace (they might not) and have some kind of ongoing contact with her.

If Jenelle didn't show up relatively soon and/or with a somewhat plausible excuse (e.g., I told my mom I was going to California for 2 weeks and she agreed to take care of my baby until I got back.), Jace would go into longer-term foster care. If Jenelle never showed up, her parental rights would be terminated eventually (though the process could take years). If she showed up before that happened and said she wanted Jace back, CPS would evaluate whether she was capable of parenting him and make a plan to reunify them, whether in the short or long term. Once she had a reunification plan, Jenelle would regain custody once she met all the requirements (things like getting suitable housing, passing drug tests for a certain period of time, maintaining a visiting schedule, etc.). In most cases, she would get multiple chances to do so- they wouldn't automatically terminate her rights if she failed to meet the benchmarks. Especially if Barb completely backed out of the picture (but even if she didn't), it wouldn't have been that hard for Jenelle to keep/regain custody of Jace, even if she were dragging him from one crack/party house to another, even if that were proven to CPS. She gave him up voluntarily.

[poopchute]

59 minutes ago, poopchute said:

Okay so then obviously I have missed some background on Barb, and maybe someone can direct me to it.  What was Barb doing when she was Jenelle’s age that was worse than being a heroin addict and being arrested more than ten times? I’m seriously asking because I haven’t heard anything regarding this!

Wait sorry I googled and it looks like as of 2015 she has been arrested 15 times, not sure how many additional times between 2015 and today.

Is this not being answered because it’s taking a long time to document all the ways that Barb was worse than a heroin addict criminal? I honestly am so curious as to what Barb did that was worse! I don’t remember hearing much on the show about what Barb was like in her teens and 20s. I tried googling but not getting any results. Help please!!

[ChocolateAddict]

Just quickly- I can't speak to the US system but in Australia there are almost as many children in kinship (family) care as foster care. The thinking is that removing a child entirely should not be the default option but efforts should be made to keep the child with their family, even if that doesn't include their biological parent. If Barb had called CPS, they may well have turned around and put Jace with her anyway. She has no arrest record, a home, a job, has raised children before and was involved with Jace as an infant. 

(If this is completely incorrect, let me know. I'm just speculating based on what I know about the US system). 

 

Also, I take offence that the serious mental health issues that Jenelle's brother has are caused by poor parenting. Poor parenting may well be a factor but many of his issues are biological/neurological and all the love and support in the world can't fight that. I know two families where the child (now an adult) has mental health issues which are so bad that they will not live alone and may never marry/have children/hold down a job. And the best parenting in the world can't rewire and reprogram their brains. 

 

More to the point, I'm not sure why Barb is the devil incarnate when her ex-husband was abusive and she was a victim of DV. I can't imagine the difficulty of trying to raise three kids with someone like that and then once the abuser leaves, doing it on your own. And when all her kids have finally grown up, going back and doing it all again because your daughter refused to have an abortion or give the baby to someone who could care for them. For all her faults, Barb has always been there for Jenelle and as a thank you she gets stalked, yelled at and abused for it. 

 

Jenelle has no one else to blame for the fact that it took her 6 years to get into court to "get Jace back" (like he's some kind of pot plant). Barb is not some evil mastermind who conspired with the court system to keep poor Jenelle away from Jace. Jenelle had years and years to get her shit together and it isn't Barb's fault that Jenelle prioritised drugs, soulmate and holidays before him. 

[TheRealT]

5 minutes ago, ChocolateAddict said:

Just quickly- I can't speak to the US system but in Australia there are almost as many children in kinship (family) care as foster care. The thinking is that removing a child entirely should not be the default option but efforts should be made to keep the child with their family, even if that doesn't include their biological parent. If Barb had called CPS, they may well have turned around and put Jace with her anyway. She has no arrest record, a home, a job, has raised children before and was involved with Jace as an infant. 

(If this is completely incorrect, let me know. I'm just speculating based on what I know about the US system). 

You are right. If Jace went into the foster care system, relative caregivers like Barb would be prioritized over unrelated foster parents. I think that Jenelle could have blocked Barb from being appointed as Jace's foster parent, at which point he'd be placed with strangers (or other relatives/friends whom Jenelle (and CPS) approved).

[Sprockets]

7 minutes ago, ChocolateAddict said:

If Barb had called CPS, they may well have turned around and put Jace with her anyway.

Children are never "placed" with someone unless that person agrees.  Barb made herself available.  She stepped up to the plate when she was needed.  Unfortunately even at tht time her relationship with Jenelle was already a clusterfuck, and Barb having custody of Jace only exacerbated the problems between her and Jenelle.  

[TwirlyGirly]

45 minutes ago, TheRealT said:

It depends on the situation and how Jenelle responded. If Barb called 911 while Jenelle was out and said that her daughter had left her baby at her house and she wasn't going to take care of him, the cops would probably show up and talk to Barb/try to get in touch with Jenelle to get her to come home/wait for her to come home. If Jenelle didn't show up for a while and the cops couldn't convince Barb to wait for her to return and work something out (which is what they'd probably try to do), they'd call CPS to take Jace if Barb insisted that he couldn't stay with her and he would go into emergency foster care. Even then, they'd first try to contact Jenelle and if she showed up relatively soon (even possibly day(s) later), they'd probably just give Jace back to her and she'd be free to take him back to Barb's or to a friend's house or wherever she wanted. Depending on the situation, they might open a case on Jace (they might not) and have some kind of ongoing contact with her.

If Jenelle didn't show up relatively soon and/or with a somewhat plausible excuse (e.g., I told my mom I was going to California for 2 weeks and she agreed to take care of my baby until I got back.), Jace would go into longer-term foster care. If Jenelle never showed up, her parental rights would be terminated eventually (though the process could take years). If she showed up before that happened and said she wanted Jace back, CPS would evaluate whether she was capable of parenting him and make a plan to reunify them, whether in the short or long term. Once she had a reunification plan, Jenelle would regain custody once she met all the requirements (things like getting suitable housing, passing drug tests for a certain period of time, maintaining a visiting schedule, etc.). In most cases, she would get multiple chances to do so- they wouldn't automatically terminate her rights if she failed to meet the benchmarks. Especially if Barb completely backed out of the picture (but even if she didn't), it wouldn't have been that hard for Jenelle to keep/regain custody of Jace, even if she were dragging him from one crack/party house to another, even if that were proven to CPS. She gave him up voluntarily.

Thanks for that detailed info. I was thinking about how quickly the situation could have resolved with Jace was comfortably and permanently residing in a stable family, but it seems like that might have taken years.

Doesn't seem to me like the poor kid ever had a chance, no matter which way it went. Of course, Jace *could* grow up to rise above the turmoil of his childhood and end up a stable, productive, adult. There are some that do - even those with much worse beginnings.

But unfortunately, the odds aren't in his favor.

<sad>

[TheRealT]

4 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Thanks for that detailed info. I was thinking about how quickly the situation could have resolved with Jace was comfortably and permanently residing in a stable family, but it seems like that might have taken years.

Doesn't seem to me like the poor kid ever had a chance, no matter which way it went. Of course, Jace *could* grow up to rise above the turmoil of his childhood and end up a stable, productive, adult. There are some that do - even those with much worse beginnings.

But unfortunately, the odds aren't in his favor.

<sad>

Yes. Best case scenario, if Jenelle took off 100% and Barb took a hard line refusing to get involved, Jace would be placed with a great emergency/short-term foster family who would end up keeping him until he eventually became available for adoption, at which point they'd adopt him. But it's far more likely that he'd cycle through multiple foster families (some/all of whom might be abusive/neglectful) and end up "unadoptable" because he was too old/fucked up.

It's possible that Barb could have fostered Jace with an understanding that the goal was to get him adopted (I have no idea what the laws are in NC), but I can totally understand how Barb reasonably thought that her options were 1) take over legal custody of her baby grandson (for whom she was the primary caregiver) or 2) put her baby grandson into the foster care system and hope that things worked out. Even if she was looking at Jace being with strangers for a night or two, I can totally understand how she couldn't do that.

[lovesnark]

1 hour ago, Booted said:

We don't know that she would have or would not have straightened up and got him permanently - she's tried pretty hard to get her mother to give her a chance but nothing is ever good enough for Barb. And how do we know Barb won't make same mistake and get another abuser in her life ? We know she's dating and looking

Barb asked Jenelle to do a few things. Stop using drugs, go to school and get a job and stay out of abusive relationships. Jenelle went to a diploma mill and got a certificate. For a field in which she would have a nearly impossible chance at securing a job due to her criminal history. She said she was going to go back to school but she moved another abusive man into her home and decided to have another child instead. She has not stopped using drugs, she couldn't even stop using while pregnant. She has not tried to further her education in order to have a way to support her ever growing family when the MTV cameras are gone. She has not stopped choosing men with abusive criminal histories as her next soulmate and moving them into her home while barely knowing them. For 7 years, Jenelle has not chosen to make smart decisions that would have enabled her to work towards having Jace live with her. None of that is Barb's doing. 

Barb has said she's not interested in dating. She's too busy. The web series was just a light hearted, producer driven vehicle because Barb has a lot of fans and people wanted to see more of her. Mike was not abusive (Jenelle has said several times how much she liked him) and Barb kicked him out because he cheated on her.

[guilfoyleatpp]

2 hours ago, Booted said:

 Jace doesn't show any emotion probably because he is medicated by who? Barb that's who- and why ? cause she couldn't deal with yet another child that she is raising. Hmmmm she has now got 4 that she has raised and they all have to be medicated to function - who is the responsible adult for creating them all ?

As someone with ADD (non-hyperactive), making medication available to someone with this condition is not a sign of neglect. It's a sign of care and concern. There's a whole process involved in getting meds for ADD and ADHD and a lot of parental engagement. Despite what the general public sometimes thinks, doctors don't hand out ADHD medication to 6 year olds without a lot of parental and school intervention. 

After a parent suspects that something is different, they usually speak to the child's teacher. Then the child has to go through evaluations (it can take weeks or months depending on your insurance and availability). Schools often perform their own evaluations (weeks or months depending on the state). The information is evaluated by someone who is licensed to do so (psychiatrist or psychologist). A diagnosis (or diagnoses) and a recommended plan of treatment are made.  

Then the plan is discussed with the parent and the patient to ensure they understand and are willing to participate in treatment. Then you get a prescription and follow up appointments. You are monitored by the doctor for months after the medication is dispensed for potential side effects and adjustments. Finding the right medication in the correct dosage can take a year or more (some people luck out right away). 

Some people decide it's not worth it and give up and go back to square one, unmedicated, disruptive to themselves and their learning/work environment. People with ADHD get divorced more frequently than people without it. They make less money. They are more likely to be depressed and anxious.  It SUCKS to lack impulse control and say/do things that you know are stupid, dangerous and/or hurtful in the moment and not have the tools to stop yourself. If you've never experienced it, I wouldn't wish it on you. 

Dealing with anyone's side effects from ADHD medication is daunting. As is dealing with someone with untreated ADD (ask my husband!). 

People don't medicate children to make them placid and listless, they medicate them because everyone deserves to know what it's like to feel normal, productive and successful. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

37 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Thanks for that detailed info. I was thinking about how quickly the situation could have resolved with Jace was comfortably and permanently residing in a stable family, but it seems like that might have taken years.

Doesn't seem to me like the poor kid ever had a chance, no matter which way it went. Of course, Jace *could* grow up to rise above the turmoil of his childhood and end up a stable, productive, adult. There are some that do - even those with much worse beginnings.

But unfortunately, the odds aren't in his favor.

<sad>

I agree.  And that's why I think Barb has utterly failed as a parent. Jace could have been permanently residing in a stable family if Barb had ever followed through with her many threats to kick Jenelle out of their lives.  But she chose not to.

[radishcake]

Guys I'm not sure what's up today with incivility but I encourage you to re-read our forum guidelines on how to talk about the shows in threads vs trying to talk about other posters. Try and treat each other better. 

Thanks.

[Mkay]

51 minutes ago, guilfoyleatpp said:

As someone with ADD (non-hyperactive), making medication available to someone with this condition is not a sign of neglect. It's a sign of care and concern. There's a whole process involved in getting meds for ADD and ADHD and a lot of parental engagement. Despite what the general public sometimes thinks, doctors don't hand out ADHD medication to 6 year olds without a lot of parental and school intervention. 

After a parent suspects that something is different, they usually speak to the child's teacher. Then the child has to go through evaluations (it can take weeks or months depending on your insurance and availability). Schools often perform their own evaluations (weeks or months depending on the state). The information is evaluated by someone who is licensed to do so (psychiatrist or psychologist). A diagnosis (or diagnoses) and a recommended plan of treatment are made.  

Then the plan is discussed with the parent and the patient to ensure they understand and are willing to participate in treatment. Then you get a prescription and follow up appointments. You are monitored by the doctor for months after the medication is dispensed for potential side effects and adjustments. Finding the right medication in the correct dosage can take a year or more (some people luck out right away). 

Some people decide it's not worth it and give up and go back to square one, unmedicated, disruptive to themselves and their learning/work environment. People with ADHD get divorced more frequently than people without it. They make less money. They are more likely to be depressed and anxious.  It SUCKS to lack impulse control and say/do things that you know are stupid, dangerous and/or hurtful in the moment and not have the tools to stop yourself. If you've never experienced it, I wouldn't wish it on you. 

Dealing with anyone's side effects from ADHD medication is daunting. As is dealing with someone with untreated ADD (ask my husband!). 

People don't medicate children to make them placid and listless, they medicate them because everyone deserves to know what it's like to feel normal, productive and successful. 

Wasn’t it mentioned that once he began his medication his school work improved and teachers were saying they noticed a good change in him.  It seems to be the right thing for Jace. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

5 minutes ago, Mkay said:

Wasn’t it mentioned that once he began his medication his school work improved and teachers were saying they noticed a good change in him.  It seems to be the right thing for Jace. 

Yes! Also, as a parent, I totally get that it's hard to understand and accept that your child is different and needs special intervention.  I feel like part of Jenelle's reluctance to accept his diagnosis might have come from that fear. She just doesn't want to believe it. Same as with Leah and Corey and "the girlses."

And then you have to go through this whole "what is best for my child" vs. "what are my (and others') assumptions about children with this diagnosis?" I feel for her on that, but you can't let your fear of someone else's judgement stand in the way of doing what's best for your kid. 

Maybe barb didn't have the resources as a young mom to get her kids the intervention that would have benefitted them and had more of an impact when they were Jace's age. She's not going to let that happen again and I applaud her for it.

[mscav]

4 hours ago, poopchute said:

That’s what I’m waiting for! The background info that you were referring to when you said Jenelle is more stable than Barb was at her age. I’m genuinely curious! It must be juicy if it’s worse than being a heroin addict with 15+ arrests!

And Jenelle would be shouting it to the rooftops and selling it to every tabloid known to man. The fact she doesn't makes me thing nothing to see there.

[lovesnark]

2 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I agree.  And that's why I think Barb has utterly failed as a parent. Jace could have been permanently residing in a stable family if Barb had ever followed through with her many threats to kick Jenelle out of their lives.  But she chose not to.

If Barb had kicked Jenelle out and called CPS to intervene with Jace, Jace would have been bounced from foster home to foster home and in and out of Jenelle's life until he would be considered unadoptable because of his age. That's after the caseworker would have done everything in their power to convince Barb to take him. They strive to place children with family members over foster homes. Barb didn't have the power to sever Jenelle's parental rights and it would have taken years of Jenelle flitting in and out before her parental rights were terminated by the court. I've seen it happen many times. The parent gets chance after chance after chance to get themselves together and when they're not keeping it together, the child is placed in foster care. Only to be uprooted from the foster family again when the parent makes a modicum of an attempt to be a parent. Unfortunately, CPS doesn't swoop in, put a baby in a wonderful family and tell the bio parent to go away. They give the parent way too many chances to turn it around. In the meantime, the child is being bounced from parent to foster family and back again. I just watched this happen with a family from our neighborhood. It took 6 years for the state to finally say no more chances. Now, the child is in his 4th foster family in 6 years and they don't want to adopt him because of behavior problems.

The best thing would have been for Jace to be placed for adoption as an infant. But, Jenelle was the only one with the power to make that happen.

[mscav]

7 minutes ago, lovesnark said:

If Barb had kicked Jenelle out and called CPS to intervene with Jace, Jace would have been bounced from foster home to foster home and in and out of Jenelle's life until he would be considered unadoptable because of his age. That's after the caseworker would have done everything in their power to convince Barb to take him. They strive to place children with family members over foster homes. Barb didn't have the power to sever Jenelle's parental rights and it would have taken years of Jenelle flitting in and out before her parental rights were terminated by the court. I've seen it happen many times. The parent gets chance after chance after chance to get themselves together and when they're not keeping it together, the child is placed in foster care. Only to be uprooted from the foster family again when the parent makes a modicum of an attempt to be a parent. Unfortunately, CPS doesn't swoop in, put a baby in a wonderful family and tell the bio parent to go away. They give the parent way too many chances to turn it around. In the meantime, the child is being bounced from parent to foster family and back again. I just watched this happen with a family from our neighborhood. It took 6 years for the state to finally say no more chances. Now, the child is in his 4th foster family in 6 years and they don't want to adopt him because of behavior problems.

The best thing would have been for Jace to be placed for adoption as an infant. But, Jenelle was the only one with the power to make that happen.

THIS!!!! I used to be a foster parent and this is exactly what would have happened.  When we were going to foster parent classes there was a young man telling us about growing up in the system. He and his brother were placed in foster care when his brother was born addicted to crack and he was 18 months old. He told us how the foster parents were their parents. They were loved and cared for them and were a very happy family. 7 YEARS later, his bio mom get her act together enough that the state gave them back to her at ages 9 and 7. In less then a year they were removed from her custody again but the state refused to put them back with their original foster family because the bio mom complained that they had turned the kids against her and the social worker had stated that they were too close to the kids. They both ended up in group homes and aging out of the system. My best friend fostered and got her son when he was 6 months old. It took 6 years to get bio moms rights terminated so she could adopt. I quit fostering because I couldn't handle how broken the system is. A little boy I had was at a supervised visitation with his bio mom and social worker at her apartment. The social worker and little boy ended up in the ER  from being overwhelmed by the "cleaning fumes" (bio mom was a habitual meth head) and they still wouldn't stop visitation. His dad stepped in and it still took the state 3 years to terminate her rights. They were holding the fact that dad was out of the picture for 3 years against him but kept giving that abusive drug addict "mother" chance after chance. If Barb had not stepped in, Jace would be cycling thru the system and in much worse shape then he is now.

[SPLAIN]

Sorry all for making this point again. It enrages me when there is ignorance about domestic violence.

Barb was in a domestic violence relationship. Those kind of relationships are not at all easy to leave. They are very complex. Anyone here who has been a victim of DV can easily explain the violence does not take the form of a single incident. It is ongoing behavior that gradually undermines the victim’s confidence to leave the relationship. The severity and frequency of violence often escalate over time. This violence takes many forms, none of which is mutually exclusive. While physical violence may be the most visible form, others such as sexual, emotional, social, religious, and economic abuse can be equally harmful.

Examples include:

isolating a victim from family and friends

taking control of finances and not allowing the victim to have access

attack and diminish the victim's self-esteem

preventing them from practicing their religious beliefs

intimidation

threats

When victims of DV have no skills or money, it only makes the situation worse for the victim who truly wants to leave, but find they are incapable of doing so without funds and resources. Barb admitted on camera she stayed long enough in the relationship to acquire the credit and the money to take her kids away from the situation and acquire a home. Victims of DV more times than not have to plan a get-away. They may take years to figure a way out. People don't always have support of family or friends. 

As for Barb having three children with her abuser, there are plenty of reasons as to why that may be.

Examples include:

the abuser hid her birth control

they abuser wouldn't allow her to have any birth control device implanted such as IUDs and birth control implants in the arms

the abuser wouldn't allow her to use any birth control and refused to use condoms

the abuser raped her

the abuser wouldn't allow an abortion

I have mentioned before, I work with victims of DV. I have heard many victims mention how their abuser wouldn't' allow them to be on any birth control. The reason being was, if they have any BC, they will be out "sleeping around." 

Victims of DV feel stigmatized, shamed, and embarrass enough without people questioning as to why they "chose to stay and have more children."

*sorry for my rant*

Edited November 8, 2017 by SPLAIN

[TheRealT]

4 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I agree.  And that's why I think Barb has utterly failed as a parent. Jace could have been permanently residing in a stable family if Barb had ever followed through with her many threats to kick Jenelle out of their lives.  But she chose not to.

Not true. As others have explained, it's very difficult to get a bio parent's parental rights terminated. I actually think that, in a way, MTV doomed Jace because Jenelle would never relinquish her parental rights or completely abandon him as long as he was tied to a hefty paycheck for doing the show. If Barb had "kicked Jenelle out of their lives," Jenelle would have probably been motivated to go to court and she would have been awarded regular visitation (at least). If Barb had washed her hands of Jace and allowed him to be placed with a foster family, Jenelle would have had an even easier time getting him back.

Edited November 4, 2017 by TheRealT

[lovesnark]

3 hours ago, Mkay said:

Wasn’t it mentioned that once he began his medication his school work improved and teachers were saying they noticed a good change in him.  It seems to be the right thing for Jace. 

Yes, at one of the reunions. Dr  Drew asked Barb how Jace was doing and she told him about the meds and said it had helped tremendously. His grades were improved and his attitude was much better. Even anti drug Dr Drew thought it was great that he was responding so well. Then Jenelle piped in and said she thought it wasn't a good idea because he might become addicted to them and that his friends would probably steal them when he got older. My first thought at that comment was that she'd be better off worrying about whatever kids were in her house stealing pot, bongs and whatever else they could find from her.

[lovesnark]

4 minutes ago, TheRealT said:

Not true. As others have explained, it's very difficult to get a bio parent's parental rights terminated. I actually think that, in a way, MTV doomed Jace because Jenelle would never relinquish her parental rights or completely abandon him as long as he was tied to a hefty paycheck for doing the show. If Barb had "kicked Jenelle out of their lives," Jenelle would have probably been motivated to go to court and she would have been awarded regular visitation (at least). If Barb had washed her hands of Jace and allowed him to be placed with a foster family, Jenelle would have had an even easier time getting him back.

She could have gotten him back and if she failed a drug test or did something else, he would have been placed in foster care again. Lather, rinse, repeat. The system is so broken and the children are the ones to suffer. 

Last year in my town, three children were found in an unheated home, living in squalor, feces all over the house and the infant was in a room in a crib alone wearing nothing but a filthy diaper. This was in winter and it was in the 30's and 40's outside. The infant almost didn't make it because she was so hypothermic. The "parents" had had the children removed by CPS 4 times and had gotten them back time after time. They left those babies alone for 72 hours with the door padlocked from the outside while they stole shit and bought and smoked meth. I almost threw up when the woman was on the news the night they were arrested, crying to the judge that she loved her kids and was 4 months pregnant with another innocent baby. As far as I know, that was the final straw and the children are now safely living with their biological father. He'd been chasing her all over the country trying to get custody of his kids since they were born. I don't know who has the baby she delivered while in jail. It's sperm donor was the asshole she was living with at the time. 

[GreatKazu]

16 minutes ago, lovesnark said:

Yes, at one of the reunions. Dr  Drew asked Barb how Jace was doing and she told him about the meds and said it had helped tremendously. His grades were improved and his attitude was much better. Even anti drug Dr Drew thought it was great that he was responding so well. Then Jenelle piped in and said she thought it wasn't a good idea because he might become addicted to them and that his friends would probably steal them when he got older. My first thought at that comment was that she'd be better off worrying about whatever kids were in her house stealing pot, bongs and whatever else they could find from her.

That moment also proves Jenelle knew BACK THEN about Jace, his mental issues, and the fact he was on medications. Not a peep out of her since that moment about wanting more information about who dispensed the meds, where is he going for treatment, and what is involved in Jace's mental health treatment. She didn't ask about wanting to go to his appointment. She never offered to drive Barb and Jace for his mental health appointments so she could be informed and ask any questions she may have had at that time. Instead, she waits two years before making a big stink ON CAMERA about Jace's health care. She didn't need custody or have access to his medical records to inquire about what was happening to him. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

5 hours ago, lovesnark said:

 

Quote

I agree.  And that's why I think Barb has utterly failed as a parent. Jace could have been permanently residing in a stable family if Barb had ever followed through with her many threats to kick Jenelle out of their lives.  But she chose not to.

If Barb had kicked Jenelle out and called CPS to intervene with Jace, Jace would have been bounced from foster home to foster home and in and out of Jenelle's life until he would be considered unadoptable because of his age.

The stable family I was referring to was Barb and Jace without Jenelle, not foster care.  Although as terrible as the foster care system is, every once in a while a kid makes it out okay, while given what Jace has been put through between Barb and Jenelle, I have pretty much no hope for him.

 

Quote

As others have explained, it's very difficult to get a bio parent's parental rights terminated. I actually think that, in a way, MTV doomed Jace because Jenelle would never relinquish her parental rights or completely abandon him as long as he was tied to a hefty paycheck for doing the show. If Barb had "kicked Jenelle out of their lives," Jenelle would have probably been motivated to go to court and she would have been awarded regular visitation (at least). If Barb had washed her hands of Jace and allowed him to be placed with a foster family, Jenelle would have had an even easier time getting him back.

I'm not sure Jenelle would have gone to court in the early years, but even if she had, and was awarded visitation, it would be better than what played out.  The constant "you'll never see him again" followed by "we're going to communicate and get along better from here on out" was destabilizing, and the lack of structure and clear benchmarks led to many opportunities for Jenelle to complain and even more for them to fight.  That's their business, except when it happens in front of Jace.  And as Jace's caregiver, it was Barb's responsibility to shield him from it, and she didn't do it.

If there had been court-ordered visitation (and again, I'm not convinced Jenelle would have bothered), there would have been a schedule, and they could have done drop-offs so that there wasn't the opportunity to fight--none of this incessant "can I see him this weekend" and "you can have him back when you clean up your life." 

So there were three choices:  (1) cut ties with Jenelle and Jenelle goes away, (2) cut ties with Jenelle and Jenelle goes to court and is granted visitation, and (3) keep Jenelle in their lives and don't bother to shield Jace from the conflict, and in fact fight with him literally in the middle of you two.  The third one is the worst, and that's the one Barb went with. 

I know she did it because she didn't want to "lose" Jenelle, but when the person who pays the ultimate price is a baby who was deprived of a shot at an almost normal upbringing, then I get judgey.  Face it:  Barb chose keeping Jenelle in her life (what Barb wanted) over keeping Jenelle away from Jace (what Barb didn't want).  It's not fair that the better choice for Jace wasn't what Barb wanted to do, but sometimes life isn't fair, and we have to sacrifice what we want for someone else's good.  She didn't do that.

Edited November 4, 2017 by StatisticalOutlier