S02.E06: The 20's

[ShadowFacts]

23 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

I'm calling shenanigans on Randall and Beth not knowing the sex of their child. Randall is painted as obsessive about many things, at the least, we know he tends to be a planner. Very out of character that they chose not to know.

A lot of people don't want to know, and even if he did and she didn't, maybe she called "marriage" on that one. 

[jacksgirl]

Shadowfacts and Katy M, I totally agree with you both, the only way Randall doesn't know the baby sex is Beth's wishes. I didn't want to know my babies, and it was my life's best surprises to find out after delivery,  anymore it seems like most people do find out though,  I have suffered through several reveals the past few years.....

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, BoogieBurns said:

I disagree. My sisters and I are an odd number (3), and we happily pick on one at a time. When I get pregnant, I guarantee my sisters will text each other, "well it looks like someone finally got laid." Or something similar. We are just being silly, not devious. Take the adopted sibling aspect out, and siblings single one out all the time to pick on. We are all grown, and we love each other. 

Ex: My middle sister had a baby in March. About a week before she was due it looked like the baby would be born on my birthday. My oldest sister texted me, "let's hope the baby has your birthday and looks like you, we all know [Middle Sister] was an ugly baby." We laughed; harmless. Baby wasn't born on my birthday, but she came out looking EXACTLY like me. We were all relieved, including the middle sister who then admitted to being an ugly baby (beautiful adult).

My brother, sister, and I switched alliances all the time. We weren't close enough in age to have the kind of dynamics younger kids have together. But we definitely teamed up against each other. 

I do think the mixed genders and "twin" status shifts the dynamic a bit though when it comes to Kevin, Kate, and Randall.

[BoogieBurns]

Just now, Clanstarling said:

My brother, sister, and I switched alliances all the time. We weren't close enough in age to have the kind of dynamics younger kids have together. But we definitely teamed up against each other. 

I do think the mixed genders and "twin" status shifts the dynamic a bit though when it comes to Kevin, Kate, and Randall.

Right, we are all sisters and all very close in age. But it's not coming from a bad place when siblings pick on each other equally. I feel like Randall and Kevin could make harmless jokes about Kate and we'd be okay with it. However, I do see your point how this isn't a standard group of 3 siblings. Touché

[Clanstarling]

Just now, jacksgirl said:

Shadowfacts and Katy M, I totally agree with you both, the only way Randall doesn't know the baby sex is Beth's wishes. I didn't want to know my babies, and it was my life's best surprises to find out after delivery,  anymore it seems like most people do find out though,  I have suffered through several reveals the past few years.....

I definitely wanted to know.  I very much wanted a particular gender, and wanted to know well ahead of time so I'd get over it and not have a moment of disappointment when the child is born. Probably because I heard the repeated story of how my father wanted a boy, and was disappointed, but then he fell in love with me when he saw me. They thought it was such a cute story. 

Plus, being Randally, I wanted to know what to prepare for. But that was well before all these elaborate reveals. 

[theatremouse]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:04 PM, Katy M said:

I loved that Jack and Rebecca called each other out on their favoritisms.  I was surprised they hadn't told the kids about Kyle yet.  I couldn't tell if Rebecca was actually mad at Jack because he wasn't there when she told Randall.  If so, that's ridiculous.  They took a vote, and she was the one that insisted Randall still get his way.

I actually thought Jack was an asshole in that scene. Before he called for the vote it was clear the twins were suggesting the same direction. So it wasn't showing any more or less favouritism than Rebecca. If you have three children and already know two of them want one option, calling for a "vote" is equivalent to saying they get their way and Randall doesn't. 

On 10/31/2017 at 8:46 PM, Cardie said:

It's possible the Larsens had told him previously, or hinted about it, and that would explain his insistence on avoiding their house at all costs.

I was confused in that scene as to whether the point was to reveal the Larsons told him in that moment when he trick or treated (foreshadowed by his comment that they talk too much), or if his talk with Rebecca was intended to reveal this is something they'd said to him before (or possibly something they say every time they seem him) and his original reticence to go to their house was not really about licorice or taking too long as he initially protested, but because they'd said this to him previously and it made him uncomfortable around them and the other reasons were a cover, but after having gone to their house he explained his real reasons.

[chocolatine]

31 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

I didn't want to know my babies, and it was my life's best surprises to find out after delivery,  anymore it seems like most people do find out though,  I have suffered through several reveals the past few years.....

It's possible to find out the gender without doing the gauche and tacky "gender reveal parties" people seem to be so fond of these days.

[Guest]

 My four siblings and I needled each other mercilessly and still make fun of each other plenty.   But we would never make jokes about a sib's sex life because ick.    You don't think about your family in that context, with us.  But we're women, too.   I've heard men often think of sex in all contexts.  Still seems mildly squicky.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, theatremouse said:

So it wasn't showing any more or less favouritism than Rebecca. If you have three children and already know two of them want one option, calling for a "vote" is equivalent to saying they get their way and Randall doesn't.

It's still a majority whether you know in advance or not.

[theatremouse]

Sure, but since he knew the outcome, he could've just said "look it's 2 to 1 so we're going to the haunted house first". I'm not taking issue with the concept of "majority rules" necessarily. Jack's invoking the concept of a "vote" during the argument, as though it would "decide" a unknown is what irritated me. It was disingenuous.

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But we would never make jokes about a sib's sex life because ick.  

And don't forget that one of Kevin's jokes was Randall making a move on their mom. Beyond ick.

[Superpole2000]

If this was the first time I had ever watched the show there would be a 0% chance I would ever watch another episode. The kids are all flawed, but not really in an endearing way. I especially dislike how the writers have turned Randall into someone incapable of holding a difficult job let alone flourishing in one. But more than the character issues, I just disliked the drama on display. Did we really need Randall delivering his own baby? Do we need all of these endless speeches? It felt like Mandy Moore was reading a 10 minute speech at one point. But the piece of the show that has gotten to me the most is the music. It reminds me of something I would hear when walking around the halls of my university residence...some douchey dude strumming on a guitar, hoping that girls will walk by his room and be drawn in to watch him play.

Come on show, settle down. Stop trying to make everything a dramatic/traumatic event. Have a light conversation here and there. Maybe give us some light so the shade has more impact.

[MaryPatShelby]

Could someone please explain viewer's Miguel hate to me, like I'm 5?  Because I can't think of anything we've seen him do or say, other than maybe "like" her back when the two couples were best friends, and possibly Pilgrim Rick, to create all this hate.  Bullet points please :) !

Edited November 5, 2017 by MaryPatShelby

[debraran]

9 hours ago, Crs97 said:

And don't forget that one of Kevin's jokes was Randall making a move on their mom. Beyond ick.

My sisters and I talked about birth control etc. but I'd never talk about their sex lives unless they said something first. Just didn't seem appropriate but we did rag on each other for other things, who's directional challenged, who is the slob, etc. Why they thought that joke was funny, the writers, who knows?

That line made me feel he never thought of Randall as his brother which is odd. I'd never think of my sister or brother like that with my parents. I agree, ick.

[possibilities]

5 minutes ago, debraran said:

That line made me feel he never thought of Randall as his brother which is odd. I'd never think of my sister or brother like that with my parents. I agree, ick.

I have the same reaction. It doesn't feel like playful teasing, it feels like genuine hostility and rejection. Earlier we did see that Randall felt that way about it, when Kevin showed up at his house because he was lonely in NYC and Randall confronted him. They had that ridiculous brawl in the street, and then apparently forgave each other, but I never really felt like they resolved anything. WHY was Kevin like that? WHY is is suddenly OK with Randall? Maybe I just don't get how brawling makes you feel better.

26 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Could someone please explain viewer's Miguel hate to me, like I'm 5?  Because I can't think of anything we've seen him do or say, other than maybe "like" her back when the two couples were best friends, and possibly Pilgrim Rick, to create all this hate.  Bullet points please :) !

It makes no sense to me, and I haven't really seen any explanations so far. It seems like some people think Miguel might have had an affair with Rebecca while Jack was alive, or that he might have made a move on her too soon after Jack's death. But we haven't really been shown that happening, so it's speculation only. I personally have nothing against him. He helped Jack a lot, career-wise, and seemed to be the family's go-to person in any crisis. Kevin hates him, as shown during the Pilgrim Rick episode, but I don't think Kevin has demonstrated emotional maturity to the degree that I'd take his feelings as necessarily valid. Tess and Annie consider Miguel "grandpa" and seem to like him, but they're little kids who may have different criteria than the adults for what makes someone likable or not. I think he's been very under-developed compared to most of the other characters, so I personally don't love or hate him, and am waiting to see what happens.

[ShadowFacts]

12 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 My four siblings and I needled each other mercilessly and still make fun of each other plenty.   But we would never make jokes about a sib's sex life because ick.    You don't think about your family in that context, with us.  But we're women, too.   I've heard men often think of sex in all contexts.  Still seems mildly squicky.  

My personal take was that it wasn't good natured ribbing, it was caustic and behind his back and revealed how much Kevin still has envy/jealousy/whatever it is of Randall, as possibilities said.  I mean, for one thing, the fact that Beth had been pregnant for nine months would have already been indication that Randall had sex so why bring it up after the birth (or ever)?  Another bad look on Kevin. 

[Guest]

Just the fact that Randall is pretty high up there in hotness himself and is married kind of guarantees he has a sex life so I guess it was more to make Kevin look extra shallow and judgmental.   

Then again I quit watching Casual Sex when the woman bragged to her adult brother about how many times she came during her one-night-stand the night before because that to me was just gross and unrealistic so maybe it's me that's the prude.   Maybe other families discuss sex like it's the weather.  I think tv writers wish that were the case but I doubt it frequently is.  

[Katy M]

14 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But we would never make jokes about a sib's sex life because ick.    You don't think about your family in that context, with us.  But we're women, too.   I've heard men often think of sex in all contexts.  Still seems mildly squicky.  

I think each family is different.  When I was in 7th grade I heard this kid telling this other kid that he had a bet with his twin sister to see who would lose their virginity first.  I obviously dont' know if if that was true or not, or if so who won, but he was obviously willing to say it.  Actually, I think it might make it worse if it wasn't true, since he was telling another boy and his sister might get some unwanted attention.

[lilmarysunshine]

On 11/1/2017 at 11:18 AM, ally862 said:

Yeah, when Jack and Rebecca were talking about which kids they favored my heart broke for Kevin.  He was never anyone'sfavorite and I think that's where his issues as an adult.  He kind of reminds me of my mom because she was the fifth of seven children and has a tendency to really seek out attention and approval from people. Kind of drives me nuts haha. I wonder if him trying to steal the role from his roommate was just out of desperation. I could see him thinking that by getting a role will finally impress people.  And like someone else said, he seems to loath himself doing it. I wonder if he thought that if his friend was good enough for the role he could be to. Still not saying it's okay, but I think the whole thing come from some deep-rooted issues.

In his defense, he did not want to go to the party, either. I think it would be very tough to be in that position - struggling, no audition for a year, your friend gets the role you think you would be perfect for. It was a crappy thing to do but I think he was in a crappy position.

Party of one here but I like Kevin and I like Justin Hartley in the role. Kevin still seems pretty boyish to me. I think the selfishness is part of that and it is not really malicious - just thoughtlessness, which I think is different. Think he is absolutely gorgeous and he's doing better with this role than I anticipated. (I know him from a soap opera so...)

15 hours ago, chocolatine said:

It's possible to find out the gender without doing the gauche and tacky "gender reveal parties" people seem to be so fond of these days.

Yeah....back in the day we just used the phone.  "Hey, it's a girl." 

*HATE* the gender reveal parties.

[PRgal]

40 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think each family is different.  When I was in 7th grade I heard this kid telling this other kid that he had a bet with his twin sister to see who would lose their virginity first.  I obviously dont' know if if that was true or not, or if so who won, but he was obviously willing to say it.  Actually, I think it might make it worse if it wasn't true, since he was telling another boy and his sister might get some unwanted attention.

That's HORRIBLE!  Especially at middle school age!

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think each family is different.  When I was in 7th grade I heard this kid telling this other kid that he had a bet with his twin sister to see who would lose their virginity first.  I obviously dont' know if if that was true or not, or if so who won, but he was obviously willing to say it.  Actually, I think it might make it worse if it wasn't true, since he was telling another boy and his sister might get some unwanted attention.

Oh, I totally agree.  That's why I try to always qualify my opinions with "for me", and that sort of thing.  Most people must find it more normal, or at least enjoyable to watch, since a lot of shows with sibling-sex-in-jokes seem to be doing just fine.  

But we all want to see our own realities reflected somewhat on the screen, too, and that's part of connecting with a show.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Oh, I totally agree.  That's why I try to always qualify my opinions with "for me", and that sort of thing.  Most people must find it more normal, or at least enjoyable to watch, since a lot of shows with sibling-sex-in-jokes seem to be doing just fine.  

Maybe most people find it normal, I don't know, but I tend to think that sometimes writers like to be "naughty" -- for whatever reason.  A little subversive, a little juvenile, a little wanting to be modern, whatever it is.  It strikes me as trying too hard in this show, now that Kevin's done it twice at least. 

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, lilmarysunshine said:

Yeah....back in the day we just used the phone.  "Hey, it's a girl." 

*HATE* the gender reveal parties.

I've never been to one, but it sounds a little over the top to me. For me, back in the day, we just told friends when we happened to see them and it was part of the conversation, and parents the next time we talked. 

2 minutes ago, PRgal said:

That's HORRIBLE!  Especially at middle school age!

Back in the 90's I had to go to the principal at my daughter's middle school because boys in her class were saying way worse things to her (like what they'd do to her in graphic detail), and whenever I told friends they thought I was overreacting and shrugged it off to "boys will be boys." To the principal's credit, he responded quickly and appropriately.

[lilmarysunshine]

Just now, Clanstarling said:

I've never been to one, but it sounds a little over the top to me. For me, back in the day, we just told friends when we happened to see them and it was part of the conversation, and parents the next time we talked. 

 

For most people, yes. But close family? No (parents, siblings) - we called.   (I had mine late 90s, early 2000s.)

[debraran]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I have the same reaction. It doesn't feel like playful teasing, it feels like genuine hostility and rejection. Earlier we did see that Randall felt that way about it, when Kevin showed up at his house because he was lonely in NYC and Randall confronted him. They had that ridiculous brawl in the street, and then apparently forgave each other, but I never really felt like they resolved anything. WHY was Kevin like that? WHY is is suddenly OK with Randall? Maybe I just don't get how brawling makes you feel better.

It makes no sense to me, and I haven't really seen any explanations so far. It seems like some people think Miguel might have had an affair with Rebecca while Jack was alive, or that he might have made a move on her too soon after Jack's death. But we haven't really been shown that happening, so it's speculation only. I personally have nothing against him. He helped Jack a lot, career-wise, and seemed to be the family's go-to person in any crisis. Kevin hates him, as shown during the Pilgrim Rick episode, but I don't think Kevin has demonstrated emotional maturity to the degree that I'd take his feelings as necessarily valid. Tess and Annie consider Miguel "grandpa" and seem to like him, but they're little kids who may have different criteria than the adults for what makes someone likable or not. I think he's been very under-developed compared to most of the other characters, so I personally don't love or hate him, and am waiting to see what happens.

Miguel is only hated because he "replaces" Jack. They interviewed the actor and he said they hopefully will learn to love him or like him. I have no feelings at all now, just glad that Rebecca wasn't shown carrying a torch for 20 years.  You don't replace Jack but you go on with your life.  I don't trust Kevin's response, he seems very immature in most of his reactions.

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, lilmarysunshine said:

For most people, yes. But close family? No (parents, siblings) - we called.   (I had mine late 90s, early 2000s.)

My parents and I talked often, so they got the news quickly. My husband and his parents, not so much.  They weren't particularly interested, and he didn't call them that often, so they probably heard later. I've forgotten. (Late 80's, early 90's)

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Maybe most people find it normal, I don't know, but I tend to think that sometimes writers like to be "naughty" -- for whatever reason.  A little subversive, a little juvenile, a little wanting to be modern, whatever it is.  It strikes me as trying too hard in this show, now that Kevin's done it twice at least. 

I totally agree.  It's like trying too hard to be edgy.  Just like the 'morbid obesity can be so sexy' stuff.  

I think gender reveal parties are cute but I've never been to one myself.  I remember when one of my friends sidled up to a sister-in-law at an unrelated party and said, "Isn't it great that Winston's having a girl!"  And the SIL got pissed because she hadn't heard yet and I guess wanted to hear it directly from us.  WTF?  

[SunnyBeBe]

On 11/2/2017 at 1:17 PM, Bliss said:

I am probably a "softie" when it comes to fulfilling the wishes of my kids, especially when they were little (oh who am I kidding... it carries on to this day)... so I was on the fence about Jack supporting Kate's wanting a different costume. I understood where he was coming from and actually thought how incredible it was that they managed to find a blonde wig, etc. Being so last-minute, I expected Rebeccah to give him the gears about that... and yet, she didn't - instead, she took the "she needs to learn..." approach. Both are legitimate parenting perspectives. JMO. I always made my kids' costumes, so I definitely know what goes into the preparations - buying material, cutting, sewing, etc. Nowadays, I see my grandkids in mostly purchased outfits - it's a different world.

Two memories that come to mind. My youngest wanted a new winter coat with a "puff" (for those of you who don't know what this is, it's a one-piece tubelike creation for both hands to fit into, with a string around the neck to hold it ... similar to the mittens on string that's threaded through the arms of a coat). She walked into the kitchen where I had the material laid out, pattern in place, and said (in an obviously disappointed tone of voice), "Oh. I was hoping for a red coat." (I'd picked grey. It was probably on sale.) She didn't whine - she simply stated her feelings. So what did I do? I packed up the grey, went to the store and bought red... all in secret (I used to sew at night after the kids were in bed). When she got up in the morning and saw her new red coat with matching puff and hood, lined in white fluffy fake fur, she was ecstatic. She still talks about this as one of her "best" memories of her childhood - the fact that I heard her and made her dream come true. (Ironically, that coat came in handy for a "Red Riding Hood" costume for Halloween.)

When my oldest was 2, she kept answering the question, "what do you want for Christmas?" with this response, "All I want for Christmas is a tree with lights." For weeks, this is all she'd say... even when asked by her puppet (she told her puppet everything - even what Daddy was getting Mommy which was a sworn secret! Bwahahaha.) On Christmas Eve, she casually mentioned that she hoped Santa Claus brought her a jack-in-the-box. There was some quick scrambling to get one at the last minute (the traffic! the crowded stores! who had a jack-in-the-box?!!!)... and yet she remembers that present under the tree and how happy she was to "get what she wanted most!"

Perhaps I felt that they had enough years left to learn about disappointment... perhaps my choices weren't what the parenting experts deem appropriate. What I do know is that my kids' memories of happy times make me smile - inside and out.

I agree that having happy memories are very important.  I just think that they have to be considered in the scheme of life and to me, it seemed that Kate got overkill in indulgence and inconsistency by her dad.   And it ended up not serving her well.  I got plenty of my dreams growing up too, but,  it didn't happen all the time.  I recall that while I had issues with my parents about some things, Christmas was not one of them.  My brothers and I always got exactly what we wanted for Christmas. We made a list and we got it.  I thought that was fair! lol  But, it wasn't like that all the time.  I was still told no on occasion and I wasn't able to play one parent against the other like Kate does.  Oh, and there was one thing that I didn't get for Christmas.....a pony.  lol I couldn't understand why we couldn't keep him in the garage. lol Somehow, I think that Jack would gotten Kate a pony if she asked, no matter that they had no where to keep it.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[laurakaye]

4 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Could someone please explain viewer's Miguel hate to me, like I'm 5?  Because I can't think of anything we've seen him do or say, other than maybe "like" her back when the two couples were best friends, and possibly Pilgrim Rick, to create all this hate.  Bullet points please :) !

• He's not Jack.
• Pilgrim Rick is a huge deal
• (seriously, I have no idea)

 

1 hour ago, debraran said:

Miguel is only hated because he "replaces" Jack. They interviewed the actor and he said they hopefully will learn to love him or like him. I have no feelings at all now, just glad that Rebecca wasn't shown carrying a torch for 20 years.  You don't replace Jack but you go on with your life.  I don't trust Kevin's response, he seems very immature in most of his reactions.

This is a huge problem I have with this show.  The actors get all these interviews and round-table discussions where they explain or give us insight into their characters.  Shouldn't that be the writer's job and shouldn't viewers, if the writing is good, be able to infer these things all by ourselves?  Why do they feel the need to explain to us what we've just watched?  Everyone brings something different to the table when we watch this show.  Some of us connect, some don't.  But it seems like the people involved in crafting this show feel the need to sit us down after every episode and make sure we saw what they wanted us to see, or feel the feelz we were supposed to feel.  This show  - IMO, so far - is not so deep that we need Cliffs Notes to make sure we know what's going on.  So if the actor who plays Miguel says "hopefully they will learn to love him," it doesn't mean anything.  Why not show us and let us figure it out?

I honestly think Fogelman & Co. think we're all so gutted with emotions after each show, we can't be counted on to be perceptive enough to "get it."

Edited November 5, 2017 by laurakaye

[Clanstarling]

7 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

This show  - IMO, so far - is not so deep that we need Cliffs Notes to make sure we know what's going on.  So if the actor who plays Miguel says "hopefully they will learn to love him," it doesn't mean anything.  Why not show us and let us figure it out?

Amen. I like the show, but I don't want to be told what I'm supposed to think or feel. So I don't read any of that stuff. I also don't want a show to shift direction because of fan reactions. To me, that indicates a lack of creative point of view. If you have a story to tell, tell it. Let the work speak for itself. 

[mansonlamps]

Weighing in on sibling teasing, I think it was pretty normal for three siblings so close in age.

[Marley]

Also some ppl don’t watch those after show things. I find those types of explaining shows boring and annoying and it annoys me when it’s like you are missing key things if you don’t watch the after show. Just do the show right..don’t try forcing me to watch something else.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

That's HORRIBLE!  Especially at middle school age!

Well, boy twin was my archenemy, IMO, he was just a horrible horrible horrible person. I sincerely hope he's grown into a mature, caring adult.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

• He's not Jack.
• Pilgrim Rick is a huge deal
• (seriously, I have no idea)

 

This is a huge problem I have with this show.  The actors get all these interviews and round-table discussions where they explain or give us insight into their characters.  Shouldn't that be the writer's job and shouldn't viewers, if the writing is good, be able to infer these things all by ourselves?  Why do they feel the need to explain to us what we've just watched?  Everyone brings something different to the table when we watch this show.  Some of us connect, some don't.  But it seems like the people involved in crafting this show feel the need to sit us down after every episode and make sure we saw what they wanted us to see, or feel the feelz we were supposed to feel.  This show  - IMO, so far - is not so deep that we need Cliffs Notes to make sure we know what's going on.  So if the actor who plays Miguel says "hopefully they will learn to love him," it doesn't mean anything.  Why not show us and let us figure it out?

I honestly think Fogelman & Co. think we're all so gutted with emotions after each show, we can't be counted on to be perceptive enough to "get it."

I would add to the Miguel Sucks list that his aged makeup looks like something from a 5th grade theater production.   (That's legit criticism of the makeup but I don't really know why it'd help people hate him.  Except that he looks stupid?)  

I don't mind the aftershow bs because no matter how much they dumb down a show there are viewers who STILL need a boost to get it.  And I'd rather they have to tune into accessory stuff than have the show itself pile in more anvils.  I'll admit to occasionally watching the GoT aftershow (which is a few minutes, I think) and gleaning something I missed.  I would never do that with this show.  I think you have to be left wanting more to go find extra content.  I remember with Lost I couldn't get enough extra content.  I haven't felt that way about a show since, really.  

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I would add to the Miguel Sucks list that his aged makeup looks like something from a 5th grade theater production.   (That's legit criticism of the makeup but I don't really know why it'd help people hate him.  Except that he looks stupid?)  

 

My only addition to the rather small Miguel-hate list is that Jack-era Miguel seems to have no connection to present-era Miguel.  Jack-era Miguel was a confident, accomplished man who was clearly a leader professionally.  Present-era Miguel seems to be sort of clueless and lacks certain social graces, although he seems like, at least when we've seen him this season, to be a very nice man.  If you look at any of the other characters, they still seem like the same person as their younger selves...except Miguel.

I've decided to reconcile this with the fact that he moved to Texas.  I've seen stranger transformations from people (okay, one person...but it is enough to justify this for Miguel in my mind) who moved to Texas and then back.

*This is not a diss on Texas or Texans.  It may or may not be a major diss on that one person I know....

[debraran]

4 hours ago, Marley said:

Also some ppl don’t watch those after show things. I find those types of explaining shows boring and annoying and it annoys me when it’s like you are missing key things if you don’t watch the after show. Just do the show right..don’t try forcing me to watch something else.

Ive only caught two, certainly wouldn't stay up to watch them or look them up but my take on it, wasn't that they thought the fans needed it explained, I just thought they did it because of the "Jack" hysteria and the love of a show that had intelligence and good writing, it was an extension. I've watched minimal extras on movies (from dvd) but when I really loved a movie, I would just to stay longer. That is my take on This Is Us extras, but maybe the explaining part has more to do with it.

[Jillybean]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I would add to the Miguel Sucks list that his aged makeup looks like something from a 5th grade theater production.   (That's legit criticism of the makeup but I don't really know why it'd help people hate him.  Except that he looks stupid?)  

I don't understand why he is so very BROWN. The makeup looks ridiculous.

[Blakeston]

13 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Could someone please explain viewer's Miguel hate to me, like I'm 5?  Because I can't think of anything we've seen him do or say, other than maybe "like" her back when the two couples were best friends, and possibly Pilgrim Rick, to create all this hate.  Bullet points please :) !

From what I've seen:

1. A lot of people are squicked out by the idea of someone marrying their best friend's spouse after their best friend dies.

2. In the same episode where we found out that Rebecca married Miguel, there was a flashback in which Miguel said that Rebecca was out of Jack's league - and Miguel made it sound like Rebecca's physical hotness was a big part of that. So some people got the impression that Miguel had always lusted after her. (Others saw it differently.)

3. Miguel tried to insert himself into Jack's Pilgrim Rick tradition, and acted like a baby when Kevin understandably said no.

4. As an old man, he acts like an awkward doofus. And he wasn't particularly exciting as a young man, either. He was basically "Generic, Boring Guy Friend." The night Jack died, we saw him comforting the family by saying something like, "I'll get some pillows."

5. A lot of viewers think Jack is a gorgeous, charming saint, and that he and Rebecca are soulmates. They're not going to like anyone else as a match for Rebecca. Especially not someone who's less than gorgeous, particularly with the old-age makeup on.

[SueB]

Finally got through all the comment. 

-Count me greatly relieved Miguel and Rebecca didn’t get together for years

-I expect lingering Big 3 feels come from them suspecting Miguel wanted Rebecca right after Jack died, Miguel being too ‘around’ after Jack’s death, and he’s not Jack.  

- Am I the ONLY one who thinks Kate lost her virginity to the married guy? She made the comment that she had built up being with him and thought it would make things better. Rewatch the bed talk.  See if you agree. Although Kevin’s comment later sure implies he thinks his sister is not a virgin.   But if she was ‘stuck’ I could see her not having an intimate relationship.  

-I think Married guy genuinely liked Kate but since he intentionally didn’t mention the married part, he really want looking for a relationship. 

- I think Kate suspected ‘married’ but kept her hopes up until after it was over.  

-Kevin being unable to pull himself out of that terrible conversation choice was painful to watch. It was not who he is and he knew it even as he did this heinous thing. I suspect that after losing his wife and giving up everything to try and ‘make it’, he got desperate when he realized his good looks weren’t enough. 

-I think he whole point of these terrible moments in Kate and Kevin’s life is to show how coming back together as a family helped both of them get on a better path.  I think Kate DID finish her degree and Jevin obviously took acting classes.  So the terrible events helped them to turn to each other and it brought them back from bad places. 

- I totally empathized with Randall and his random sharing.  I’ve done that and I’ve also been on the other side. No judging from me!

- And Guadi’s advice was stellar. 

- Jack asking Rebecca to see a new costume was not only horribly under appreciating Rebecca but kinda defies the space/time continuum.  It would have taken days.  

-I do like young Kate but she is totally spoiled.  And Rebecca was right to call Jack out. Likewise, Rebecca enables Randall’s freak outs and Jack was right to call that out.  And where’s Kevin? Oh right, Kevin had turned to others to give him the attention his family will not.  At least he’s not dead.  

- I agree, I think Jack (he of the grand gestures) died trying to rescue siomething for Kate. And he never came back out of the house.  Tragic.  And screws you up. Maybe he got the dog out but some of the house fell on him and the conflagration was too much to get him.  I think it was smoke inhalation as cause of death but I think he got trapped.  

- Rebecca’s line about everything happy always being tinged with sadness was such and excellent insight.

- Not my favorite but I enjoyed it.  

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

Am I the ONLY one who thinks Kate lost her virginity to the married guy? She made the comment that she had built up being with him and thought it would make things better. Rewatch the bed talk.  See if you agree.

At first, I wondered if they were suggesting that but then reconsidered and decided these writers would have hammered that fact in with sledges, not just subtly suggested it.  

[maddie965]

On 11/1/2017 at 9:27 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, I think Kevin was a jerk, even as a kid he was a real piece of work.  They portray him as being nice to his sister, but, that's about it.  Did he have any male friends?  He doesn't really consider much, imo. Oh, except that time where he's staying with Randall and he SUDDENLY gets philosophical and and brings into show the nieces some art piece that he drew about life and family.  So bogus.  I still laugh when thinking about it. 

That's my favorite scene in the whole series. I've lost count of how many times I've watched it. I adore Kevin. And I adore what he said there. That scene is the most perfect definition of what the show is about.  I love that Kevin got to say the words that mean so much to me. I wish the authors would stop treating him like a victim and get back to showing his sensitive, philosophical side.

[SueB]

I think Kevin is very smart.  Just like Kate, Jack & Rebecca.  Yes, Randall is at a 'next-level' but the rest of the Pearsons are no dummies.  I think they observe and react with great depth.  I also think Kevin gets treated like a dumb blond and sometimes lives down to that image.

Note: speaking of image

- Randal gets a shorter haircut and glasses to be 20
- Kate gets bangs
- Rebecca gets age makeup
- Beth gets a youthful hairstyle
- Kevin looks exactly the same -- like he has a Dorian Grey type picture in a storage locker

[BoogieBurns]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Randal gets a shorter haircut and glasses to be 20
- Kate gets bangs
- Rebecca gets age makeup
- Beth gets a youthful hairstyle
- Kevin looks exactly the same -- like he has a Dorian Grey type picture in a storage locker

I think 20something Randall also had no facial hair. Beth looked 28, she probably looked exactly like that 10 years ago. How weird that Kate looked bigger and older in her 20s than now. How did they do that? Her face is thinning out (I think she loses weight in her legs and face first) but in flashbacks she had a wide face. Possibly present-day Kate's makeup is being contoured better. Kevin looked a little douchier, just because douche was in style in 2008. #EdHardy

Regina King's directing made Rebecca's speeches to the babies so beautiful. I was covered in tears. Something about her first grandkid being black just made me feel real happy about the woman Rebecca grew into, in spite of her mother's racism. 

I feel like Chrissy Metz is getting thinner, I re-watched season one over the weekend. She has so much weight to lose, it's not happening quick enough for some viewers.

ETA: Off this above topic, but I was exactly like 10 year old Randall with plans. Things HAVE to go as planned or I will panic. Funny enough, I am an event planner as a career, so it's not always bad to be the planner. I was more of a leader than Randall though, so everyone went with my plan. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by BoogieBurns

[tennisgurl]

I dont think any of the 20 something Big Three really came off that great this week. Randall got off the best (as he usually does) but his constant neurosis and obsessing over anything that can go wrong while his wife is about to pop would be pretty irritating to deal with, while you also had Kevin (tried to steal a job from his friend) and Kate (knowingly slept with a married man) not really impressing me in how they're "killing their 20s". If anything, it makes me appreciate that, as annoyed as I can get with the current Pearson kids, at least they seem better now then than. 

It really hit me here that Jack will never know is grand kids, and his grand kids will never know Jack, and that just kills me. He would have been such a great grandpa. 

[Crs97]

I have four children.  They didn't come with answers and didn't tell me who I am.  Asked husband;  they didn't tell him either.

[SueB]

27 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I have four children.  They didn't come with answers and didn't tell me who I am.  Asked husband;  they didn't tell him either.

I know you weren't looking for a serious response but I felt compelled to give one:

I'd say, when I picked up my first child for the first time, I forgot who I had been and became "Mom".  It was like she reached in, took my heart and said "MINE!"  I thought I was ready for it when I was pregnant. Ha!  I so underestimated the impact. That's not to say I didn't retain most of my own personality, I certainly did. But I had such a clarity of understanding in that moment -- my job was to take care of her and it became an imperative for me unlike any other and I was totally cool with it. Overjoyed even.  Same with child #2, but different.  Different personality in child #2 -- shockingly in the first few days we could see the personality differences.  We named him "Joseph", but by day 6 it was obvious -- he was "Joe".  "Joseph" was far too Type A of a name for this kid.  He was chill from the get-go. But my love for him?  Like getting an "expansion pack" on a game.  I had a unique relationship with him right from the start and still do to this day.   

So... I really related to what hardware store guru said.  Not the exact words but the notion that my understanding changed when I 'met' them and I formed a unique and deep relationship with them the moment I held them in my arms.  

Sorry for the uber-sincerity moment for those looking for levity.  
BTW: Both kids got married this summer and yet I can still remember that "moment" with each.  

[methodwriter85]

On 11/1/2017 at 10:30 AM, Jillybean said:

Which is why the line was so silly, being uttered in 1990 (?). The costumes were a strange choice for that point in time, but maybe Rebecca was feeling nostalgic.

Well, it's 1990. Movie makers in that general age range (Baby Boomers and the-just-barely-Silent Generation) were making a shit ton of nostalgia films about the 50's through the early 70's. Off the top of my head, The Wonder Years, Born on the 4th of July, 1969, It, Hairspray, Quantum Leap (the show mostly stayed in the 50's to the 70's with some detours to the 80's) all featured nostalgia/ennui about that time. And we're only a couple of years away from the biggest movie about Baby Boomer nostalgia, Forrest Gump.

And of course, we have to remember that Jack in 1990 is a 46-year old man, and Rebecca is a 40-year old woman. For them, Cher is Sunny and Cher. She's not the super-star who had a really great run in the late 80's/early 90's, until she was derailed by infomercials. I doubt Jack would be following Cher's career all that much, just what he remembers her as being in 1972.

[GSMHvisitor]

4 hours ago, maddie965 said:

That's my favorite scene in the whole series. I've lost count of how many times I've watched it. I adore Kevin. And I adore what he said there. That scene is the most perfect definition of what the show is about.  I love that Kevin got to say the words that mean so much to me. I wish the authors would stop treating him like a victim and get back to showing his sensitive, philosophical side.

Mine too. I absolutely loved that scene. I pride myself on barely crying when I watch this show (and not because I wanna be tough, but because the whole emphasis of TPTB, actors etc... that this show WILL make you cry is seriously annoying), but this scene got me. I definitely teared up watching it.

[ally862]

22 hours ago, lilmarysunshine said:

 

Party of one here but I like Kevin and I like Justin Hartley in the role. Kevin still seems pretty boyish to me. I think the selfishness is part of that and it is not really malicious - just thoughtlessness, which I think is different. Think he is absolutely gorgeous and he's doing better with this role than I anticipated. (I know him from a soap opera so...)

 

Party of 2!  I'm a Kevin fan and I second all your thoughts

[Bliss]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

I know you weren't looking for a serious response but I felt compelled to give one:

I'd say, when I picked up my first child for the first time, I forgot who I had been and became "Mom".  It was like she reached in, took my heart and said "MINE!"  I thought I was ready for it when I was pregnant. Ha!  I so underestimated the impact. That's not to say I didn't retain most of my own personality, I certainly did. But I had such a clarity of understanding in that moment -- my job was to take care of her and it became an imperative for me unlike any other and I was totally cool with it. Overjoyed even.  Same with child #2, but different.  Different personality in child #2 -- shockingly in the first few days we could see the personality differences.  We named him "Joseph", but by day 6 it was obvious -- he was "Joe".  "Joseph" was far too Type A of a name for this kid.  He was chill from the get-go. But my love for him?  Like getting an "expansion pack" on a game.  I had a unique relationship with him right from the start and still do to this day.   

So... I really related to what hardware store guru said.  Not the exact words but the notion that my understanding changed when I 'met' them and I formed a unique and deep relationship with them the moment I held them in my arms.  

Sorry for the uber-sincerity moment for those looking for levity.  
BTW: Both kids got married this summer and yet I can still remember that "moment" with each.  

Agreed, SueB. Well said.

There's a saying, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." That is how I feel about motherhood in some ways... it wasn't always me teaching them - my kids taught me so many things about boundaries, expectations, etc. I believe the biggest lesson was on loving unconditionally. That's truly how I feel about them (and that doesn't mean they don't piss me off at times).

I don't remember the line from the show, but I do remember having the thought that, yeah, babies are very smart. They know exactly what they need and if a parent follows that gut instinct intelligence, they'll know what to do... when to feed, burp, rock... change... bathe... play... chat away... and sometimes just hold and make eye contact. My kids taught me when it was time to wean, and when it was time to be potty trained. It's quite organic.

If anyone doesn't know about places in your heart that you didn't know existed until they seem to burst with an undeniable, pure love... wait until you have grandkids. (And to think I was mistaken for so many years, thinking I could never love anyone the way I loved my children. I love discovering I've been wrong!)