S02.E04: Team Cockroach

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Michael approaches things from a new angle. Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani and Jason struggle to make a collective decision.

[Dots And Stripes]

Go Team Cockroach!

Let's of set up this week. Michael will work with the humans to try to get to the real Good Place and we got some more insight into Janet. I'm glad we're past the memory wipes for a while.

[Panopticon]

Poor Mindy was so close to getting her cocaine! Damn Chidi's influence on Eleanor! 

[CaptainTightpants]

The whole "magic stairs" up to Eleanor's terrifying bedroom is just as funny the second time around! 

[Linny]

"I might be the most advanced Janet in the universe!" ***Pats head while rubbing stomach*** Janet's geniality always strikes exactly the right note; it's not cloying or over the top or out of place, just genuinely charming.

So Tahani was literally crushed under the weight of her sister's overachieving superiority. Ouch. I do find it silly that beautiful, accomplished Tahani was SO insecure and threatened by her sister's ludicrous accomplishments. I want there to be more to Tahani than a childish sibling rivalry. I hope we do see her expressing personal growth, because I need something to help me connect to her.

How long will it take for Vicky and the others to figure out that Team Cockroach wasn't rebooted? I still think Vicky may actually be working for Shawn and is aware of Michael's machinations and is actively subverting him. There are so many levels of manipulation possible that I'm really curious how everything will play out.

Jason's face when Janet handed him the sparkler was the best. He may be the dumbest person ever, but he's also pretty damn adorable.

[pennben]

This show always makes me ridiculously happy.  Team Cockroach forever (or until the next reboot)!

Edited October 6, 2017 by pennben
realized I shouldn't pledged loyalty forever when reboots are inevitable:)

[CaptainTightpants]

"Actually Michael, I'd like to sing a few words". Just when I thought I couldn't hate Vicky more, she keeps raising the bar!

[HunterHunted]

I'm impressed that this version of Tahani still thinks she's a good person. I don't think that's how Tahani actually died, mostly because I can imagine way more embarrassing ways for Tahani to die. I'd like to believe that Michael is lying about some things, especially how Tahani died.

As Team Cockroach was arguing about whether to work with Michael, I wondered if this was his last ditch attempt at torturing them. They were bickering up a storm.

28 minutes ago, Panopticon said:

Poor Mindy was so close to getting her cocaine! Damn Chidi's influence on Eleanor! 

So close to her cocaine. So close.

[topanga]

17 minutes ago, Linny said:

So Tahani was literally crushed under the weight of her sister's overachieving superiority. Ouch. I do find it silly that beautiful, accomplished Tahani was SO insecure and threatened by her sister's ludicrous accomplishments. I want there to be more to Tahani than a childish sibling rivalry. I hope we do see her expressing personal growth, because I need something to help me connect to her.

How long will it take for Vicky and the others to figure out that Team Cockroach wasn't rebooted? I still think Vicky may actually be working for Shawn and is aware of Michael's machinations and is actively subverting him. There are so many levels of manipulation possible that I'm really curious how everything will play out.

Jason's face when Janet handed him the sparkler was the best. He may be the dumbest person ever, but he's also pretty damn adorable.

Actually, it was Tahani's parents who started it. All of her life, they told her she wasn't as good as her sister. That's gotta hurt, hearing that your entire life.

This episode wasn't as laugh out loud funny as some others, but as still really liked it. 

I got a real Veronica Mars vibe when Eleanor stood up to Michael and told him she didn't trust him. Same tough voice and defiant body language. 

[Chaos Theory]

Well we know a few things.  

1.  The longest Michael was able to keep a round going was 11 months.

2.  Mindy  St. Cloud is real.

3.  This go around the group is only a couple weeks in which means they don't really know each other and they are still quite possibly close  to their worse selves.  

4.  Tahani died in the mist embarrassing way possible literally under the weight of her sisters achievement.

Team Cockroach is going to be a blast!!!!!

[FormerMod-a1]

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

1.  The longest Michael was able to keep a round going was 11 months.

And the shortest as 8 seconds.  Hee!  Due to an accidental butt press.

[CaptainTightpants]

Upon reflection I hope that Kamilah Al-Jamil, when she eventually dies goes to the worst Bad Place in existence. Pretending not to recognize Tahani, and then telling her she should strive to be a cocktail waitress, at an event that she was excluded from?! I hope she gets an entire crate of butthole spiders to herself! Nobody puts down the sexy skyscraper on my watch missy!

[Dots And Stripes]

4 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

 

3.  This go around the group is only a couple weeks in which means they don't really know each other and they are still quite possibly close  to their worse selves.  

I think this is an important point and a smart move by the writers. The characters know the basics about each other, but they haven't bonded yet. So we get to watch them learn to trust each other again rather than having them start out completely united.

Also, Chidi always helping Eleanor was a sweet detail. Michael could have been lying, but from what we've seen of Chidi it rings true.

2 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

And the shortest as 8 seconds.  Hee!  Due to an accidental butt press.

I'm fascinated by the Janet angle. Michael says she was rebooted each time but it would seem like she wouldn't need to be in a few of the shortest iterations (the butt press, Eleanor hearing his confession). Michael doesn't seem to care that he may have the most advanced Good Janet there is. Seems short sighted and like one of his many missteps. It should make for some fun episodes though. I've also noticed they had a few sweet Janet/Jason moments in the reboots and tonight. She already had the capacity to marry him once, I assume that's going to happen again.

[ally862]

39 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

I'm impressed that this version of Tahani still thinks she's a good person. I don't think that's how Tahani actually died, mostly because I can imagine way more embarrassing ways for Tahani to die. I'd like to believe that Michael is lying about some things, especially how Tahani died.

As Team Cockroach was arguing about whether to work with Michael, I wondered if this was his last ditch attempt at torturing them. They were bickering up a storm.

So close to her cocaine. So close.

Haha I felt bad for Mindy too but realized that without the reboot they'll remember she wants it so hoping they'll have a throw away line about bringing her some.

[HunterHunted]

2 minutes ago, ally862 said:

Haha I felt bad for Mindy too but realized that without the reboot they'll remember she wants it so hoping they'll have a throw away line about bringing her some.

Given how Mindy was jonesing for cocaine, that package was going to last Mindy a couple of days. They'll need to make regular trips. It's interesting that there is a Good Place Janet and a Bad Place Janet, but no Medium Place Janet. What would a Medium Place Janet bring Mindy? Cocaine? Nope. Here's some whip-its and a handful of pills. There might be some adderall, allergy medicine, or some Tylenol.

[Pamela]

This episode was hilarious.

Of course, I mean sad.

[Chris24601]

Good setup episode for (probably) the rest of the season. Resetting to Verson 1.0 is a good way to make season one meaningful even if Team Cockroach doesn't remember it.

Also, while 11 months was the record, I saw that a whole lot of them lasted 6+ months. It doesn't mean much measured against eternity and may not even line up with Earthly time at all, but I feel safe now in saying that its been easily hundreds of years already for them (and poor Mindy with jer cocaine cravings) now.

Which if time there does match up with Earth time means even Tahani's sister is long dead and in some afterlife or another. I suspect that things like that... the opportunity to make peace with their mortal lives is going to be key to them actually making it to a real Good Place eventually.

I say eventually because legitimately making to the real Good Place probably means the story is over... so clearly Michael's "I'll get us into the Good Place" plan will fail in some way.

My guess on that is that Team Cockroach is going to do such a number on Vicky they'll end up in charge of the fake Good Place when the dust settles somehow (possibly even with Shawn's "blessing").

[Wandering Snark]

There was a lot of needed setup here so we did lose a lot of the usual laughs, but Mindy's cocaine being so close then never getting to her again shows how she's cursed to medium land and Jason playing with the sparkler was awesome yet. Eleanor's clown bedroom with the sliding doors, hidden stairs and circus music? Still funny.

And we were wondering about Tahani's death, which may be the worst and most symbolic of any of them. Literally crushed by her sister's glory. Rough way to go.

The 'one week in' Eleanor still wants to learn/change but she's still, as we saw initially, very rough around the edges. Well played show.

Interested to see where we go from here as we're back to yogurt instead of clam chowder...

[twoods]

This show making fun of the Jaguars will never get old. Cracks me up every time. Jason's stupidity is hilarious- the actor nails every scene.

[Amarsir]

After centuries in one episode last week, this one was basically in real time. I like that.  I also agree with @Chris24601 that reverting to Version 1 is a good move for the audience's benefit.  It lets a lot of the exposition and scenery carry over, so that we don't have to wonder where Tahani lives, whether the neighborhood people we met are still in the same roles, etc. It makes everything feel more familiar.

My one gripe is that I'm not sure this was Michael's only out. He could have reset them and then offered his deal, at which point they would have been far more inclined to trust him. Of course Eleanor was right that this isn't her only out either, with Mindy still existing. But I felt like the drama was forced, since narratively we were pretty sure the show would have them team up, and logically it's pretty clearly the best deal. So when I thought about it that way it made the episode seem like a stall.

But we got to see how Tahani died, and understand her sister's character more. That was big and appreciated.

[Traveller519]

29 minutes ago, twoods said:

This show making fun of the Jaguars will never get old. Cracks me up every time. Jason's stupidity is hilarious- the actor nails every scene.

That's definitely a Mike Schur special. As a comedy writer who moonlights as a sports blogger he's always enjoyed dropping little references in for the Sports Nerds. Keep taking those shots, I hope they can hold up as well as the Pawnee Law Firm. Of course "Remaining Loyal to The Cleveland Browns" being a contributing factor to one's positive points in the pilot was pretty great too.

I am so So SO glad they didn't default to all trusting Michael, his very convincing bow-tie aside. This was a good episode for diving into the psyche of especially Eleanor, but Tahani and Chidi as well. We know they'll remain skeptical of Michael which will help frame the remainder of the season. As much as I like Brooklyn 99, I think they would have skipped to the team-up plot without this set-up episode on that show. But that's because the comedy typically comes from the execution, not the plot. But that's why the shows are different, and why I'll happily watch them both.

Vicky is going to make a great villain for the back half of this season.

[Dowel Jones]

Michael should aim higher than Vicky.  He should be plotting against Shawn.

[AuntTora]

I thought Tahani said something last year about, "gave my life to save others, such fun!" Hm. Going to have to check the Tivo....

[NJRadioGuy]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I say eventually because legitimately making to the real Good Place probably means the story is over... so clearly Michael's "I'll get us into the Good Place" plan will fail in some way.

I wonder. I suspect they'll end up in the real Good Place at some point in the series, only to discover that it's not quite what they thought it would be, and not a place they'd ever want to spend eternity. What if the real GP was everything you ever dreamed of. A real soulmate, Ice cream and porterhouse steaks and fried chicken, and all your other favourite foods instead of FroYo (assuming you have a body and can eat), unlimited time to engage in all your favourite sin-free earthly pastimes? The Jags winning the Celestial Bowl every year in your own universe, etc. Wouldn't you get bored after a while, even doing everything you loved? It would cease to be the Good Place, and after an eon of sitting on clouds and polishing halos, it would become the Bad Place. What if the real endgame turns out to be getting another shot on Earth to do the right thing?

[thuganomics85]

Finally get to see how Tahani died!  Maybe not the absolute worst way to go, but for Tahani, yeah, getting crushed by a statute of your more successful and jackass sister would majorly suck.  I do think they've done a good job of explaining why Tahani is in the Bad Place because all of her good charity work and whatnot was due to selfish motives, but man, do I feel bad for her.  Her family sucks.  I just hope that when their time all comes, they get sent somewhere worst then the Bad Place.  I do hope her knowing this will lead to Tahani getting back closer to the one that came to be at the end of season one, because she's still kind of in her pure snob phase right now.  Still, I love her and Jameela Jamil is really owning it.

Similarly, it is a little frustrating that Eleanor is back to more of her mean, selfish self, but I'm glad they're already showing her change by agreeing with Chidi at the end.  Hopefully they'll avoid any resets going forward and the characters can continue to grow.  Really want the return of Eleanor/Tahani's little friendship.

Besides those minor worries, I'm already digging where this is heading.  The gang agrees to Michael's plan, but Michael is now required to attend Chidi's ethics classes and whatnot, and isn't quite in control anymore as he used to be.  I'm looking forward to seeing all the interactions and how the Real Michael (for the lack of a better word) will play off with the rest.  Also it looks like Janet will be part of the team too!  Which, is apparently being called Team Cockroach now (sorry, Jason!) This should be fun!

So, basically it looks like Vicky's grand plan is similar to Michael in a lot of ways, only she's making herself the center of attention.  That would be Vicky's plan, wouldn't it.  It would be hilarious if her downfall comes because of her need to hog the spotlight.

Mindy was so close to that cocaine!  Poor Mindy!!

"Pump Up The Clam."  Oh, The Good Place.  I will never tire of your stupid and hilarious puns!

[katalizt]

Great episode tonight! It felt like it was back to form after last week's endless rushed resets. While it was almost entirely dialogue, it had enough laughs and a lot of insight into the characters, which made it enjoyable.

I think Janet's upgraded human awareness is going to give her some character development and will influence her relationship with Jason.

[Anisky]

29 minutes ago, AuntTora said:

I thought Tahani said something last year about, "gave my life to save others, such fun!" Hm. Going to have to check the Tivo....

She did, during the episode "What's My Motivation?" Since we know that she didn't know how she died, I can definitely imagine Tahani just assuming that she'd died sacrificing her life for someone else's (or saying that's what happened, even though she knows she doesn't know). That would be so Tahani.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Anisky

[Dowel Jones]

29 minutes ago, NJRadioGuy said:

Wouldn't you get bored after a while, even doing everything you loved?

If I recall correctly, The Twilight Zone had an episode that did just that, with a gambler who ended up in a casino where he won every bet and every woman worshipped him, and so forth.

[piewarmer]

17 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

"Pump Up The Clam."  Oh, The Good Place.  I will never tire of your stupid and hilarious puns!

I wonder if we'll get to see the lazy river at A Little Bit Chowder Now.

[ZoqFotPik]

3 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Upon reflection I hope that Kamilah Al-Jamil, when she eventually dies goes to the worst Bad Place in existence. Pretending not to recognize Tahani, and then telling her she should strive to be a cocktail waitress, at an event that she was excluded from?! I hope she gets an entire crate of butthole spiders to herself! Nobody puts down the sexy skyscraper on my watch missy!

There's no way that level of condescension qualifies someone for the Good Place.

 

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Given how Mindy was jonesing for cocaine, that package was going to last Mindy a couple of days.

Considering she doesn't have to worry about over dosing, I'd say a day a most.

 

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Also, while 11 months was the record, I saw that a whole lot of them lasted 6+ months. It doesn't mean much measured against eternity and may not even line up with Earthly time at all, but I feel safe now in saying that its been easily hundreds of years already for them (and poor Mindy with jer cocaine cravings) now.

Even a 3 month average would come out to be 200 years. So they have definitely been in the Bad Place for centuries at this point.

 

5 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

If I recall correctly, The Twilight Zone had an episode that did just that, with a gambler who ended up in a casino where he won every bet and every woman worshipped him, and so forth.

But that was basically what was going on here. A seemly heaven like place that is actually hell.

[bros402]

I liked learning about Tahani's death.

[loki567]

Quote

I am surprised Vicky is still such a big presence. I thought I had read that the actress was cast as a series regular in another show, maybe not? She's super-obnoxious.

Considering The Good Place's shorter season length, still 13 episodes, I wouldn't be surprised if most of her scenes were already filmed. 

[Chaos Theory]

5 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

If I recall correctly, The Twilight Zone had an episode that did just that, with a gambler who ended up in a casino where he won every bet and every woman worshipped him, and so forth.

Spoiler

Turns out that was his Bad Place. 

 

This show is interesting because in being heavy on story telling it has can't really go on for eternity.  My guess is that it has a few years in it before it has to end in one way or another.

[CooperTV]

I'm glad the show is continuing with its perfect set-up from last season:

1) If you have severe anxiety issues, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

2) If you're victim of emotional abuse and your parents never loved you and you always wanted to prove yourself to them anyway or being noticed (because that's how emotionally or otherwise abused children usually act), you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and to to hell to be tortured;

3) If you're mentally challenged and fall for life of crime, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

That's show is so cute!

[whiporee]

My favorite line: You're a cocktail waitress now? That's a good move for you. 

[Milburn Stone]

1 minute ago, CooperTV said:

I'm glad the show is continuing with its perfect set-up from last season:

1) If you have severe anxiety issues, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

2) If you're victim of emotional abuse and your parents never loved you and you always wanted to prove yourself to them anyway or being noticed (because that's how emotionally or otherwise abused children usually act), you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and to to hell to be tortured;

3) If you're mentally challenged and fall for life of crime, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

That's show is so cute!

I hear your withering sarcasm, @CooperTV, and I'm in synch with it.

As someone who has been known to be anxious on one or two occasions, I confess to being uncomfortable knowing that eternal damnation awaits me for having that flaw. Seems a mite uncharitable on Schur's part.

Wouldn't it be nice if the afterlife promised relief from the ills that beset us on earth through no fault of our own, instead of more punishment for having suffered them?

As for how the show is playing out this season: Here, I'm not in synch with most of you. After being blown away by the speed at which this season began, I'm now feeling "been there, done that." I was amused by several moments last night, even laughed out loud at a couple of them, but the fascination I once had to find out what comes next? Gone.

[Chaos Theory]

I am a million times not a comedy person.  I usually maybe smile.  This one has me out right laughing especially this season.  Last season took me a few episodes and I did stop watching.  I watched the season after it ended on Netflix so I already knew the big reveal.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[morgan]

I don't think you are damned to the bad place because you suffer from anxiety or your parents ignored you, etc.  it's what you did with those misfortunes, how did you overcome them?  

I always go back to Defending Your Life, one of the funniest movies ever.  It wasn't that Albert Brooks' character was a bad guy, he just was a fearful anxious one who didn't grow/find his bravery while on earth.  Of course he didn't go to the bad place, just couldn't go to the good place.  

I also loved in that movie how all the people would go crazy for all the food and goodies at first and eat mounds of it all.  And once they had been there a while or achieved whatever enlightenment needed they wouldn't want all that any more.  I think of that part a lot while watching the good place, especially with Eleanor and the shrimp.  

Edited October 6, 2017 by morgan

[CherithCutestory]

Quote

Upon reflection I hope that Kamilah Al-Jamil, when she eventually dies goes to the worst Bad Place in existence. Pretending not to recognize Tahani, and then telling her she should strive to be a cocktail waitress, at an event that she was excluded from?! I hope she gets an entire crate of butthole spiders to herself! Nobody puts down the sexy skyscraper on my watch missy!

I am a little disappointed that they embraced making her that awful. Poor Tahani.

Last episode she was the worst. But like her parents more so up her own butthole to notice her sister. This time she was actively antagonistic. 
 

Quote

Poor Mindy was so close to getting her cocaine! Damn Chidi's influence on Eleanor! 

He deserves to be in the Bad Place just for that!

Quote

"Actually Michael, I'd like to sing a few words". Just when I thought I couldn't hate Vicky more, she keeps raising the bar!

If they really had been rebooted Eleanor would have popped out a "THIS is the Bad Place" right about then.

Quote

I got a real Veronica Mars vibe when Eleanor stood up to Michael and told him she didn't trust him. Same tough voice and defiant body language. 

I definitely feel like they have embraced the Veronica Mars this season.

But I also feel like Ted Danson has embraced the Sam Malone this season after a lifetime of playing everything but. 

[Chaos Theory]

46 minutes ago, morgan said:

I don't think you are damned to the bad place because you suffer from anxiety or your parents ignored you, etc.  it's what you did with those misfortunes, how did you overcome them?  

I always go back to Defending Your Life, one of the funniest movies ever.  It wasn't that Albert Brooks' character was a bad guy, he just was a fearful anxious one who didn't grow/find his bravery while on earth.  Of course he didn't go to the bad place, just couldn't go to the good place.  

I also loved in that movie how all the people would go crazy for all the food and goodies at first and eat mounds of it all.  And once they had been there a while or achieved whatever enlightenment needed they wouldn't want all that any more.  I think of that part a lot while watching the good place, especially with Eleanor and the shrimp.  

 Chidi is a moral guy.  That isn't the point.  What did he do with it?  Nothing.  Less then nothing really.  His morality paralized him so much that he made himself and everyone around him miserable.

Tahani had awful parents and sister yes but she spent her entire life trying to be better then her sister.   I am actually hoping that Tahani's sister does end up in this version on The Good Place because it would allow Tahani to grow as a person.   

[morgan]

I meant how did they overcome their shortfalls...their anxiety?  Their jealousy?  They didn't.  They wallowed in it and let it control them.  

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I'm glad the show is continuing with its perfect set-up from last season:

1) If you have severe anxiety issues, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

2) If you're victim of emotional abuse and your parents never loved you and you always wanted to prove yourself to them anyway or being noticed (because that's how emotionally or otherwise abused children usually act), you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and to to hell to be tortured;

3) If you're mentally challenged and fall for life of crime, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

That's show is so cute!

I think the writers are mocking the extremely common idea that people who fall just short of an arbitrary level of goodness deserve an eternity of torture, and people who were just above that level deserve an eternity of joy.

24 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

 Chidi is a moral guy.  That isn't the point.  What did he do with it?  Nothing.  Less then nothing really.  His morality paralized him so much that he made himself and everyone around him miserable.

Tahani had awful parents and sister yes but she spent her entire life trying to be better then her sister.   I am actually hoping that Tahani's sister does end up in this version on The Good Place because it would allow Tahani to grow as a person.   

I wouldn't say Chidi did less than nothing with his morality. According to Michael, he was the closest of the four to making it to the good place.

In spite of his indecisiveness frustrating people around him, I imagine he did a lot of good deeds, and was very kind. He's also the only one of the four humans who actually gave a damn about other people.

Tahani wanted more fame and adoration than her sister, and was willing to help others to get it, but she never actually cared about the people she helped. (As evidenced by her putting off her humanitarian trip to Haiti in order to confront her sister.)

[CherithCutestory]

29 minutes ago, morgan said:

I meant how did they overcome their shortfalls...their anxiety?  Their jealousy?  They didn't.  They wallowed in it and let it control them.  

And most of them weren't even self-aware enough to realize it was a serious problem preventing them from leading an actually fulfilling life and truly benefiting others.  There is something to be said for being aware of your faults and earnestly trying to improve yourself even if you don't suddenly become a wonderful human being. But most of them were just completely blind to their short comings. That's the only area Eleanor has a one up on the rest (and why she almost always figured it) because she was aware she was a dirt bag. But of course in life that self-awareness was useless because there was no following impetus to change. (I am NOT someone who believes an honest jerk is better than a phony nice person. You don't get to be a jerk just because you are honest about it. So, I'm not saying Eleanor is better than the rest in any way, shape or form. Just that that moment of recognition of your faults is an important first step in improving. It's meaningless if you don't go to step two.)

Even when they realize they are in the Bad Place Chidi and Tahani don't get why. (Tahani did last season but only because Eleanor had pointed it out a couple of episodes earlier when none of her points counted because she had impure motives.) Chidi thinks it is all because of one horrible unforgivable thing he did (that nefarious almond milk) and Tahani is baffled. Not that they wasted their lives consumed by their own ultimately petty concerns.

Edited October 6, 2017 by CherithCutestory

[morgan]

I absolutely love that Chidi always thinks it's the almond milk!  

[CooperTV]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

As someone who has been known to be anxious on one or two occasions, I confess to being uncomfortable knowing that eternal damnation awaits me for having that flaw. Seems a mite uncharitable on Schur's part.

Unless there's a surprising twist somewhere at the  end of the season (or should I say, "surprising twist", since none of the twists on the show were surprising so far), Shur's writing does comes off as mean-spirited. I sincerely hope the writers actually have a point in all of this apart from The Good Bad Place being a satire on Hollywood/tv productions or post-modernist sensibilities. But I don't think I want to stick with the show to find out.

12 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I think the writers are mocking the extremely common idea that people who fall just short of an arbitrary level of goodness deserve an eternity of torture, and people who were just above that level deserve an eternity of joy.

If so, they're doing that badly, IMO, because they lost their characters in the process.

Edited October 6, 2017 by CooperTV

[Rockstar99435]

13 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

"Actually Michael, I'd like to sing a few words". Just when I thought I couldn't hate Vicky more, she keeps raising the bar!

I loved the wordless exchange between Eleanor and Michael when she started singing. They both think she's terrible.

12 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Given how Mindy was jonesing for cocaine, that package was going to last Mindy a couple of days. They'll need to make regular trips. It's interesting that there is a Good Place Janet and a Bad Place Janet, but no Medium Place Janet. What would a Medium Place Janet bring Mindy? Cocaine? Nope. Here's some whip-its and a handful of pills. There might be some adderall, allergy medicine, or some Tylenol.

My bet is Robitussin.

[Mabinogia]

9 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

wonder. I suspect they'll end up in the real Good Place at some point in the series, only to discover that it's not quite what they thought it would be, and not a place they'd ever want to spend eternity. What if the real GP was everything you ever dreamed of. A real soulmate

My guess is, they will get there and be separated. They will realize they don't want to be there if they can't be together and will request to be sent to the medium place, together. 

I loved this episode and found it hilarious. Jason just kills me. He is sooooo hilariously stupid. Janet is great. I love that her first loyalty is to the humans. 

I love Eleanor demanding Michael take ethics lessons with the rest of them. I think they will do him a world of good. Maybe they will end up making their own little good place for just the six of them. 

[Anisky]

3 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I'm glad the show is continuing with its perfect set-up from last season:

1) If you have severe anxiety issues, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

2) If you're victim of emotional abuse and your parents never loved you and you always wanted to prove yourself to them anyway or being noticed (because that's how emotionally or otherwise abused children usually act), you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and to to hell to be tortured;

3) If you're mentally challenged and fall for life of crime, you deserve to die in the most idiotic way possible and go to hell to be tortured.

That's show is so cute!

I think we're on the same page, but of a different book.

Over on avclub I posted basically the same thing as you said in 1 and 2... that Chidi had (and still has) an anxiety disorder, that Tahani was emotionally abused by her family, that wanting to earn your parents' love is not a corrupt motive, and that anyone raised with the family dynamic she was would try to prove herself as good as her sister and try to gain parents' approval, etc, and that it's awful that they're in the Bad Place, that it's deeply unfair that being abused or having a mental illness would cause someone to be tortured eternally. I went on at some length, but that's the gist. So, same/similar starting point. 

However, I really don't think that the show is saying that these people deserve to be in the Bad Place at all.

The show has shown that the points can be really arbitrary-- you gain points for scratching your elbow and eating a sandwich, and lose points for "blow[ing] nose by pressing one nostril down and exhaling", and lose a LOT of points for rooting for the Yankees. 

They've almost made a point, many times, of saying that lots of historical figures who we know of as being really amazing people who have done tons of good are all in the bad place. That only the tiniest fraction of people even make it to the Good Place, say around .01%, and the rest of the 99.99% of people are tortured for eternity. That's supposed to be messed up. That's supposed to wildly unfair. The non-arbitrary parts of the points system awards points based on how much good you've done for other people and how much you've helped them, and takes points away for having harmed/offended/inconvenienced/etc other people.  But the same system that gives or takes away those points condemns the vast majority of humans to horrific suffering for eternity, something that would be worth about negative infinity points if a human did that during their life time. So we see that the system is not just unjust, it's deeply hypocritical down to its very foundations. 

If all of that is just ignored for the rest of the show, then you're right, it's a horrible message. But when I watch the show I'm seeing tons of set-up for the show to explore how horribly unfair and awful this afterlife system is. I will be surprised if (unexpected cancellation notwithstanding) the show doesn't end up with an attempt to overthrow current system.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Anisky

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, CooperTV said:

Unless there's a surprising twist somewhere at the  end of the season (or should I say, "surprising twist", since none of the twists on the show were surprising so far), Shur's writing does comes off as mean-spirited. I sincerely hope the writers actually have a point in all of this apart from The Good Bad Place being a satire on Hollywood/tv productions or post-modernist sensibilities. But I don't think I want to stick with the show to find out.

Do you think he's really suggesting that these four characters deserve endless torture?

They've shown us that Eleanor can be a good person, and that she probably would have been a good person on earth if she hadn't been born into that awful family. They've also shown us that Chidi tried as hard to be good as he possibly could.

It seems to me the point he's making is that there's a lot more to people than just a sum total of their actions, and that we have to take their pasts, and their issues, into account.

[Dowel Jones]

Or, it could be just a half hour comedy show instead of a world shaking allegory.