S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

But Brienne is now going as Sansa's emissary. Which was not the case before when she took Jaime to KL.

What's the difference?  I don't see why Cersei is ok with Brienne as Catelyn's emissary but murderous toward Brienne as Sansa's emissary.

But while Sansa was mean about it, I don't blame her one bit for not wanting to be anywhere near Cersei.  It has been mentioned a million times.  This is a dumb plan.  You can't trust Cersei.  She's insane.  And she already has an undead bodyguard, that Jamie should have told Tyrion about, when Tyrion told him about this hare-brained scheme.

So Jon and Dany show up with a wight and are like, "look he's not alive!"  And Cersei has the Mountain take off his helmet and say, "yeah I already have one of those".

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

There was nothing on screen to indicate that Sansa was onto Littlefinger. He pointed out that Brienne is not strictly loyal to her, and is honor bound to defend Arya, too. Which to me means she wouldn't let them hurt each other-and Sansa's response was to send her away. 

She's not Arya's sworn sheild, her promise to Cat was to get her girls home and safe, but she pledged her sword and honor to Sansa.

It's Jamie Lannister questions on vows, which do you choose out of all the ones made or taken.

[Cherpumple]

I’m growing increasing nostalgic for the days when we were all eagerly awaiting a Stark reunion, because the reality has turned out to be disappointing across the board. Not “bittersweet” to use GRRM’s words, but sincerely terrible. Sansa lying to Jon, Rickon getting murdered, Bran losing his humanity, Sansa and Arya at each other’s throats, Jon and Benjen barely getting 10 seconds together. Enough! At this point I’m afraid that any Jon/Arya reunion will be too little too late. The damage has been done.

 

I’m choosing to ignore the ridiculous Winterfell storyline. The plot points and character motivations are obviously as clear as mud to the viewers, and the whole thing reeks of being filler. Both girls are behaving like petty assholes, making it impossible for me to root for either one (even though I desperately want to). The only positive thing I get out of it is thinking how much fun Sophie and Maisie must have had working together again.

 

Loved seeing the Magnificent Seven work out all their issues, and would have preferred to see more of that and cut the Winterfell scenes altogether this week. There was so much more they could have discussed- it was like a group therapy session!

 

The ending fight was great, but why didn’t the Fellowship spend some of their waiting time smashing up the ice that surrounded their little rock? And seriously, they didn’t bring a single archer?

 

And aside from the question of where those giant dragon-hoisting chains came from, who went under the water to secure them to the dragon? We just saw that they can’t go in the water, so was it one of the WWs?

 

I hate to admit it, but after being adamantly against a Jon/Dany pairing for years, this episode finally convinced me that it’s not such a crazy idea. I actually think they’re doing a good job of showing them be an evenly matched pair. Seriously, when was the last time Dany met a man who didn’t immediately want to kill, screw, or serve her (or some combination thereof)? And when was the last time Jon had a near stranger rush to save him, with no questions asked? And regardless of any sexual chemistry people may or may not see between the actors, it’s clear that the characters have become very relaxed and honest with each other in a relatively short time and have truly earned each other’s respect. Alright show, I give in- let’s see more Jon and Dany!

 

I have a feeling that some of the more nonsensical plot points (the stupidity of the wight hunt, sending Brienne away) are more about moving some necessary chess pieces around for the ending sequences than about internal logic, but since the show has diverged so much from the planned books, they are coming off as increasingly awkward. For instance, maybe Viserion needs to become a wight and Brienne needs to meet up with Jaime again, and these are the inelegant solutions devised by the show. And as I said last week, I’m keeping my fingers crossed that getting the Hound back down to Kings Landing (AND the subtle mention of his burns this week and what a monster the Mountain was in the Riverlands in season 1) may also finally give us Cleganebowl. If it does, I will be very forgiving for a lot of other nonsense, provided that Sandor wins of course.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Cherpumple

[anamika]

17 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

What's the difference?  I don't see why Cersei is ok with Brienne as Catelyn's emissary but murderous toward Brienne as Sansa's emissary.

Because Brienne was not going just as Catelyn's emissary but was entrusted with getting Jaime safely to KL? And Jaime was there to ensure nothing happened to Brienne.

And in this case, Brienne is specifically working with Sansa who has no idea if Jaime is still there. Does she not wonder why Cersei sends the letter in the first place? If she thinks it's dangerous for her and maybe a trap, would it not be equally dangerous for Brienne? Sansa keeps harping on about how Cersei could cross the icy North and murder them all, but she thinks Brienne is going to be safe in KL?

17 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

You can't trust Cersei.  She's insane. 

But it's okay to send Brienne to meet with her? Just to get her out of Winterfell?

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[VCRTracking]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Yeah, no. In the inside the episode, they mention that LF is expertly manipulating her by stoking her fears that Arya is going to harm her. She sends Brienne away because she thinks that Brienne would side with Arya against her. Just the opposite of what you are saying.

The Inside the Episode doesn't say Sansa sent Brienne away because she thinks she'll take Arya's side. It says after the scene where Sansa discovers the faces(which happens after she sends Brienne away) that she realizes she might be in mortal danger from her own sister. The featurette confuses things by having Weiss say "Littlefinger is stoking those fears" and showing another earlier scene of them talking by the window when she wasn't feeling in danger.

Edited August 21, 2017 by VCRTracking

[anamika]

Just now, VCRTracking said:

The Inside the Episode doesn't say Sansa sent Brienne away because she thinks she'll take Arya's side. It says after the scene where Sansa discovers the faces(which happens after she sends Brienne away) that she realizes she might be in mortal danger from her own sister. The featurette confuses things by having Weiss say "Littlefinger is stoking those fears" and showing another earlier scene of them talking by the window when she wasn't feeling in danger.

In the earlier scene with LF, Sansa thinks that Arya is going to use the letter against her. David and Dan were suggesting that LF was stoking those fears. LF was hinting that Brienne may not be of much help to Sansa in this case because she is sworn to both sisters.

And yes, after that, when Arya finds her snooping in her room and plays the game with her, David and Dan mention that Sansa feels threatened by her sister.

So it's not the featurette confusing things - According to the showrunners, Sansa thinks that Arya is a danger to her in many ways and LF is manipulating her by stoking those fears.  She gets Brienne out of the way based on LF's suggestion.

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Right.  She's a captive at Harrenhall, but just goes to find some rat poison, because we know for certain there are rats there......because, there are big old honkin' rats used to torture people. 

But again, since this is the book thread, we can point out that in the books, although Arya is a captive, she manages to improvise and frees a bunch of northern prisoners, which eventually allows Roose to take over Harrenhal(and inadvertently sets up the situation that puts Roose in a position to betray Robb later).  So it's not out of the realm of thinking that Arya COULD have done SOMETHING to take out Tywin.  Especially since she appears to be acting as if Sansa should have done something, eventhough she was a prisoner.

[VCRTracking]

16 minutes ago, anamika said:

In the earlier scene with LF, Sansa thinks that Arya is going to use the letter against her. David and Dan were suggesting that LF was stoking those fears. LF was hinting that Brienne may not be of much help to Sansa in this case because she is sworn to both sisters.

And yes, after that, when Arya finds her snooping in her room and plays the game with her, David and Dan mention that Sansa feels threatened by her sister.

So it's not the featurette confusing things - According to the showrunners, Sansa thinks that Arya is a danger to her in many ways and LF is manipulating her by stoking those fears.  She gets Brienne out of the way based on LF's suggestion.

They were not implying that AT ALL.

D.B. Weiss:(as scene of Arya handing Sansa the dagger plays) "Going into the final episode, I think Sansa is bringing with her a real fear about the idea that Arya really might want to murder her. It's a fear that Littlefinger expertly stokes."

(Sansa and Littlefinger by the window.)

Littlefinger: Is that what she thinks?

Sansa: I don't know what she thinks. I don't know her anymore.

They show the window scene because it's the only time we see Littlefinger is in the episode and use dialogue where Sansa says doesn't know her sister anymore. Not the dialogue about Brienne.

Edited August 21, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Shimmergloom]

22 minutes ago, anamika said:

But it's okay to send Brienne to meet with her? Just to get her out of Winterfell?

Yes, because like I have said, Cersei has shown no inclination toward wanting Brienne dead.  Cersei does want Jon and Sansa and all the Starks dead though.  So it is stupid for Sansa to show up in KL and think Cersei won't try to kill her.  It's not stupid to think she won't kill Brienne considering Brienne was there before and freely walking around KL not as a hostage, eventhough she showed up as an emissary to Catelyn Stark with the express mission to take Sansa back with her.

[anamika]

23 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

They were not implying that AT ALL.

D.B. Weiss:(as scene of Arya handing Sansa the dagger plays) "Going into the final episode, I think Sansa is bringing with her a real fear about the idea that Arya really might want to murder her. It's a fear that Littlefinger expertly stokes."

(Sansa and Littlefinger by the window.)

Littlefinger: Is that what she thinks?

Sansa: I don't know what she thinks. I don't know her anymore.

They show the window scene because it's the only time we see Littlefinger is in the episode and use dialogue where Sansa says doesn't know her sister anymore. Not the dialogue about Brienne.

As you said, it's the only time we see LF and they bring up the fact that he is stoking her fears. LF is stoking the fear that Arya does not mean well and could expose her to the Northern lords, putting her in danger. LF is stoking her fear that Arya could harm her which becomes the 'real fear' that Arya could murder her towards the end. LF is not outright telling her that Arya will murder her - just making her more wary of Arya, leading to her sending Brienne away and actually thinking that Arya could murder her towards the end.

What do you think David and Dan are implying here about LF stoking her fears?

15 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Yes, because like I have said, Cersei has shown no inclination toward wanting Brienne dead. 

But you just said that Cersei is insane and untrustworthy. So how does Sansa know that Cersei is not going to kill Brienne?

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[VCRTracking]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

What do you think David and Dan are implying here about LF stoking her fears?

20 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

D.B. Weiss:(as scene of Arya handing Sansa the dagger plays) "Going into the final episode, I think Sansa is bringing with her a real fear about the idea that Arya really might want to murder her. It's a fear that Littlefinger expertly stokes."

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

Given Cersei's interaction with Brienne at the Purple Wedding, I think she'd kill anyone who she thought Jaime might respect, listen to or even love. It is a scene of remarkable shade and both Christie and Heady play it beautifully. Cersei starts very charming, shades her hard and then Brienne, sensing the direction this is going, books it. 

 

This is exactly my worry.

After weeks of anger at Jaime's lack of redemption, and thinking that he'll never leave Cersei now that she's knocked up, I suddenly had a horrible thought.

I just couldn't understand why Sansa would send Brienne away, and no doubt we'll be given an in universe reason, but I just thought, what if it's a meta reason? On the show, Brienne is the only catalyst for redeemed Jaime. In the books we had him ignoring Cersei's letter, and beheading one of his soldiers for raping a camp whore. 

But on the show, he's practically ignored everything that Cersei's done, up to and including using wildfire. So I have the horrible fear than Cersei will do something terrible and permanent to Brienne, which will be the one thing to turn Jaime against her. I feel like taking selfies with huge placards: Don't fridge Brienne for Jaime!! and sending them to D&D.

(I also think that's the way the books are headed, with Brienne sacrificing herself to Lady Stoneheart to save Jaime)

Re. The rest of the episode, I watched early (seems like every douchebag on YouTube put up spoiler videos, with spoilers in the title and in the thumbnail, so I gave up on Wednesday) and so I've already been through the 5 stages of grief for Viserion.

After thinking about it, I've decided that the NK was setting a trap - he's seen the dragons, and he wanted one. 

I was really annoyed that instead of meeting at a neutral location, Team Dragon is actually going to Kings Landing. Why? Would you agree to that, Tyrion? Dammit. Just fly over, Dany, drop the wight, and book it. 

[anamika]

4 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

 

But we don't see him stoking her fears about murder on screen. We see him stoking her fears about Arya being a threat to Sansa in general. You seem to be willfully misunderstanding what they are saying for some reason.

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[VCRTracking]

11 minutes ago, anamika said:

But we don't see him stoking her fears about murder on screen. We see him stoking her fears about Arya being a threat to Sansa in general. You seem to wilfully misunderstanding what they are saying for some reason.

I was paying attention to Weiss' actual words which I transcribed from the video.

"Going into the final episode, I think Sansa is bringing with her a real fear about the idea that Arya really might want to murder her. It's a fear that Littlefinger expertly stokes."

You saw a featurette which had no mention of Brienne and construed that Sansa sent her way because she thought Brienne would take Arya's side! I completely agree Littlefinger wasn't shown stoking Sansa's fears that Arya will murder her in this episode, which is why I said the featurette was confusing. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by VCRTracking

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I'm misunderstanding the words that were actually said? I was paying attention to Weiss' actual words. You saw that featurette which had no mention of Brienne and construed that Sansa sent her way because she thought Brienne would take Arya's side! I completely agree Littlefinger wasn't shown stoking Sansa's fears that Arya will murder her in this episode, which is why I said the featurette was confusing. 

So you can't connect the dots from what they said to the actual scenes? You need Weiss to actually spell it out for you?

Weiss: It is a fear (That Arya means her harm) that LF expertly stokes  - This is said over the LF-Sansa scene where they discuss Arya and Brienne.

Sansa then sends away Brienne to meet with Cersei despite this being dangerous for Brienne and despite how she could have used Brienne to talk to Arya and intercede on her behalf or use Brienne to deal with LF. Notice how she does not confide in Brienne at all about Arya, only LF.

So that's my interpretation of what they said and those scenes. Feel free to spin it however you want.

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[VCRTracking]

17 minutes ago, anamika said:

So you can't connect the dots from what they said to the actual scenes? You need Weiss to actually spell it out for you?

Weiss: It is a fear (That Arya means her harm) that LF expertly stokes  - This is said over the LF-Sansa scene where they discuss Arya and Brienne.

Sansa sends away Brienne to meet with Cersei despite this being dangerous for Brienne and despite how she could have used Brienne to talk to Arya and intercede on her behalf or use Brienne to deal with LF. Notice how she does not confide in Brienne at all about Arya, only LF.

So that's my interpretation of what they said and those scenes. Feel free to spin it however you want

They show it because it's the only scene with Littlefinger in the episode. And the only dialogue is Sansa talking about not knowing Arya anymore. This is relevant to Weiss talking about Sansa being afraid Arya will murder her. I don't connect any dots because there are none. They don't talk about Brienne, they don't show Brienne.

You've posted as if that the featurette stated outright  the reason Sansa sent Brienne away is because she doesn't trust her, when in fact that is just your interpretation based on ???

Edited August 21, 2017 by VCRTracking

[MissLucas]

Questions:

• Jon's wounds - those looked like the ones he received by Ollie & Co and not fresh. Does this mean he's no longer healing properly? (It was hard not get side-tracked by those pecs but I took one for the team and checked more than once.)
• How exactly does Dragon navigation work? I mean ride North until you see the gigantic wall is one thing but how did she find the battle? I assume Gendry sent no coordinates.

I'm also in the camp claiming that they all played right into the NK's hands who decided to go shopping for a dragon. He took out Viserion first because Drogon already has a rider (assuming the rules apply even for resurrected dragons).

Man, I wish IKEA would put up instructions for THAT coat.

[whateverdgaf]

46 minutes ago, arjumand said:

This is exactly my worry.

After weeks of anger at Jaime's lack of redemption, and thinking that he'll never leave Cersei now that she's knocked up, I suddenly had a horrible thought.

I just couldn't understand why Sansa would send Brienne away, and no doubt we'll be given an in universe reason, but I just thought, what if it's a meta reason? On the show, Brienne is the only catalyst for redeemed Jaime. In the books we had him ignoring Cersei's letter, and beheading one of his soldiers for raping a camp whore. 

But on the show, he's practically ignored everything that Cersei's done, up to and including using wildfire. So I have the horrible fear than Cersei will do something terrible and permanent to Brienne, which will be the one thing to turn Jaime against her. I feel like taking selfies with huge placards: Don't fridge Brienne for Jaime!! and sending them to D&D.

(I also think that's the way the books are headed, with Brienne sacrificing herself to Lady Stoneheart to save Jaime)

I wouldn't worry about Brienne being killed off, not before she can fight some White Walkers at least. She's a badass warrior woman armed with Valyrian steal, D&D aren't going to waste such an opportunity, especially as I think her mere presence will be enough for Jaime to break away from Cersei. She can talk some sense to him, and she is a reminder that he isn't utterly friendless and Cersei isn't his only ally.

[anamika]

21 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

They show it because it's the only scene with Littlefinger in the episode.

YES! And therefore that's the scene they are talking about in which LF plays on her fears and specifically brings up Brienne.

I'm baffled that people don't get this. Sansa tells him about the letter and Littlefinger tells her that Brienne would be honor bound to step-in and Sansa immediately sent her away. Sansa is scared of Arya, both in terms of what she may do to her physically and what she may do to her hold over the north.

That's why she is confiding only in LF about this. Not to Brienne or anyone else.

Edited August 21, 2017 by anamika

[VCRTracking]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

I'm legit surprised people didn't get this.

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, mac123x said:

The one bright spot in the continuing stupidity in Winterfell was Sansa calling the other northern lords a bunch of weather vanes.  Truer words have never been spoken.  The rest of her interactions with Arya and Littlefinger were just asinine. 

I don't know what they are doing with WInterfell but I don't like it... I don't like it at all. I only hope this madness comes to an end next week. There is just no way with what Ayra has been through that she would be acting like this. There is also no way Sansa would be blathering this info. to Littlefinger.  Perhaps we will find out next week this is an act or something (a needless stupid act) but right now I am just pretending it isn't happening.  On the idea that Sansa was forced to do things in Kings Landing... did Ayra miss the part of the play about her family where Sansa plead for her father's life and then was married off the to dwarf?  Where is Bran? If you had a brother with visions might you consult him as to your worries concerning another family member?

Ok I am just going to have to learn to accept the insane timeline of this show. I tell ya, if Jon had a cell phone and texted Dani she would have gotten there about the same time. 

Loved Dani's look tonight. The first time she has looked pretty in a while. I loved her innocent little girl face when her dragon was killed. 

I enjoyed the various conversations among the traveling crew -- nice to see some bonding time.

Finally felt some spark between Jon and Dani but man, they were working soooo hard.  At least Dani is mega invested in taking the knight king out now.  Cerci needs to hire him for her team. Maybe she will propose marriage.. really good arm.  John, Dani, next battle... redshirts find the knight king and Dragon immolates him before he even knows what is happening. OK? 

I have to agree with Dani about planning for the future. I don't see any reason to do that now when there are so many unknowns. First that she get the crown and second that the world isn't destroyed by the white walkers. I am getting sick of Dani constantly throwing it in Tyrions face that his plans didn't work out. His plans were solid. They should be examining what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future not hurling insults.  That shows immaturity. 

[Nmissi]

On rewatch, I think we're all misinterpreting the sansa/arya scene. Arya starts by talking about how the rules aren't fair, and girls can't be who they want to be. She's making common ground with Sansa. But then she throws the letter in her sister's face, to put her off guard. Later, she catches Sansa searching her room, threatens her- then hands over her dagger. I think Arya is demonstrating that she's capable of protecting Sansa, she's showing her what she can do, how much she has learned. Then Littlefinger advises Sansa that brienne is her best protection and wouldn't let Arya harm her... so what does Sansa do? She sends Brienne away. I think she did that to PROTECT her sister- she's afraid Arya will come at her and Brienne may have to intervene- to prevent that, Brienne has to go.. 

[Oscirus]

24 minutes ago, BooBear said:

did Ayra miss the part of the play about her family where Sansa plead for her father's life and then was married off the to dwarf?  Where is Bran? If you had a brother with visions might you consult him as to your worries concerning another family member?

Or the fact that the play pretty much implied that Sansa was a whore?  Maybe, but at this point, Arya sees it more as Sansa betrayed her family to save her own hide and she's now working with a family enemy.

[MadMouse]

Also we have the Northern Lords disrespecting and plotting against Jon who we know Arya loves more than anyone. So from her perspective she's seeing history repeat itself with Jon being in Ned's place. She was totally helpless back then but now she's not so she's doing the only thing she knows. As much as Arya comes off cold and detached in the scenes she's being driven completely by love and fear at this point. On the other hand she sees Sansa as that same girl she was years ago who will let herself be used even at the expense of her family.

That's what I got from rewatching the those scenes again, of course they really haven't done a good job handling the situation. 

[Misplaced]

7 hours ago, that one guy said:

 (I'm watching season 1 and season 7 at the same time this month. There are MANY callbacks).

I've been watching Season 3 .... there are MASSIVE callbacks!  Like, dragon-sized anvil-dropping callbacks.   It's fascinating - I highly recommend it. 

[Growsonwalls]

I think we can argue about Brienne/Sansa/Arya till the cows come home but in the end it's poor writing on the show's part to have Arya threatening to kill Sansa and bringing up things Sansa did years ago when she was a foolish, naive young girl who thought Cersei and Joffrey were acting in good faith. It's conflict for the sake of conflict.

I think one reason Cersei still has a hold on our imagination is because the show writes her character to be very consistent. You might not like what she does, but she always acts as Cersei would act. Same with Jon Snow. 

[Macbeth]

8 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Sansa is a cow and a bitch. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but it's mine. 

I understand the bitch part.  But she has earned her right to be a bitch.

I am so taking Sansa's side on this one.  She needs to feel safe in her home, and Arya has threatened her.  LF, that fucker, is letting Arya do his dirty work.  As always.

And Arya is scaring the crap out of me.  I feel like I am watching "The Shining" with her.  A little too much time left to her own defenses.

[Haleth]

I really, really want a spin off-- Tormund and the Hound on the road discussing life, love, and... whatever.  Thoros would have made a great back seat (drunk) commentator but he's dead.

Shut up, Arya.  Shut up, Sansa.

Instead of Uncle Benjen showing up out of nowhere (how random was that?), I so wish the remaining dragon would have landed so Jon could fly out in style.

The compression of time (Gendry to the Wall, raven to Dragonstone, dragons to the rescue) was ridiculous.  And where DID those chains come from?

[cambridgeguy]

OK, Jon hasn't sent a single raven to Winterfell in weeks given all that's happened?  At the very least he should have sent a response to Bran's raven from the last episode, or are they saying he has and this wight expedition has taken several weeks?  Hopefully he's also not stupid enough to tell the Northern lords he bent to knee to Dany without showing up at Winterfell with a dragon to prove he's not a weak-willed coward or that he's following in Robb's footsteps and letting a pretty girl sway him.

[Eyes High]

Here for bisexual Tormund. 

For all that Tyrion said that one never gets used to the dragons, he was fine with stomping after Dany right past them when he was trying to convince her not to go.

Dany's fur outfit slayed. Best thing she's ever worn in the show, hands down.

I laughed at Benjen refusing Jon urging him to save himself with "There's no time!" Dude, there was plenty of time.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Eyes High

[Francie]

3 hours ago, arjumand said:

After thinking about it, I've decided that the NK was setting a trap - he's seen the dragons, and he wanted one.

I think so, too.  He had an ice javelin prepared, along with the chains.  There's also a GIF going around -- a close up of Long Claw (with its hilt made out of weirwood), when Jon is submerged in the water and comes out.  The eye of the wolf goes from solid white, like an animal warged, to an eye with a pupil.  My take -- the Night King can watch them through Long   Claw. 

My question is - how does Sandor's vision of the mountain play into this?  What role does this "Lord of Light" or whatever force it is have? 

Oh, and upon further reflection of last night's show, I can't help but imagine what my reaction would have been if I had been Sansa finding that bag of faces. It would have gone:

Ewwww!!!!! Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God!!!!!! My God!! My .... What the fuck???!!!!!! What the serious fuck!!!!! Is this real??? No, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God. Like, what IS that? Like that's a fake substance, right?!!! I mean, totally creepy, but at least ... Oh my God oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god. EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! [Repeat for 10 hours] 

[YaddaYadda]

Before I read 8 pages worth of posts, I just wanted to say that the saddest thing was Rhaegal and Drogon screaming when Viserion went down. 

[proserpina65]

There'll be more later, but all I can say right now is:  HOLY FUCKBALLS!!!!

[Mya Stone]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Jon's "rebirth" after being submerged in the frozen lake was very reminiscent of his "rebirth" when he was almost trampled during Battle of the Bastards. When he arose from that (BOTB) he was reborn as Jon Snow, King in the North. 

 

For this rebirth, could he be reborn as King Jon Targaryen, First of his Name? 

[Uncle JUICE]

Know what this show's making me do? Appreciate how great the ending of Breaking Bad had to be. Because this is now 2.5 episodes that are on a really, really, really bad run. What seems to be getting missed because the dragons were in this episode (guilty as charged here too, anytime a dragon comes and fries shit I immediately react like "wow, this episode is good" until further consideration), this show continues to do something that bad shows do for plot purposes: leave a problem in play STRICTLY because the two people involved in the conflict stop one sentence short of anyplace a normal conversation is concerned. I'm thinking specifically of Arya and Sansa, obviously, and the scroll problem. 

Arya finds the scroll, confronts Sansa about it. At any point, if Sansa just says "Look, I know what this looks like, but you have to understand my circumstances, blah blah blah...oh just one question before I go on...was this scroll in ANY way connected with Littlefinger? Maybe he didn't give it to you directly, but was the whiff of Littlefinger, the most notorious schemer in the entire kingdom, anywhere NEAR this transaction, in any way?"

"You know, now that you mention it..." intrafamily drama deflated, both girls don't look like dummies, and the viewer can get the drama from a better source: how will these two try to play LF, if at all, and will they succeed. Instead, this show's painting by really boring numbers.

I also hated that the interminable hike from Eastwatch went on and on simply because each character had to pair to take some narrative dumps.. The scene with Jon and Jorah was a total waste of time, everyone knows he's not taking the sword and I could have written the speech Jorah gave myself. UGH, don't do this Game of Thrones! I haven't even talked about the REST of the problems with this show, or the telegraph that Jon is going to tie, riding Rhaegal, right before or as Rhaegal and Jon kill the Night King and simultaneously take down the ice dragon and like 90% of the wight army. Seriously, thanks again Breaking Bad. 

[FnkyChkn34]

7 hours ago, that one guy said:

I actually know the answer to this! At the Battle of Castle Black, Mag the Mighty, last King of the Giants, had giant chains. He tried to chain his mammoth to the Black Gate and rip it off so Mance's army could get through. The Giants are all dead now, and the White Walkers have all their stuff. Maybe the NK is a Greyjoy not a Stark, the Walkers do not sow.

They were absolutely massive and took hundreds of wights to carry them. None were ever seen hauling them around before the battle. And how did they get them attached to the dragon to pull him out? Hundreds swam down there? It appears that they can't swim. Plot hole!

Obviously I'm dwelling on this as sarcasm, but seriously, it made no sense. 

[Uncle JUICE]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

They were absolutely massive and took hundreds of wights to carry them. None were ever seen hauling them around before the battle. And how did they get them attached to the dragon to pull him out? Hundreds swam down there? It appears that they can't swim. Plot hole!

Obviously I'm dwelling on this as sarcasm, but seriously, it made no sense. 

You want to talk about nitpicks? Those chains were SLACK. How much does a waterlogged dinosaur weigh? They'd be taut, number one, and physically, the leverage that they'd require to haul the dragon up would very likely crack the rest of that ice sheet, making the whole idea even less probable. 

[Constantinople]

This whole episode fell flat

The point of the Seven Samurai (plus assorted red shirts) walking around the North of the Wall until they captured the wights seemed to be so they could chat about events in previous seasons.  Or in the case of Thoros at the Iron Islands, events that occurred before the series took place but have now been mentioned multiple times: Jory Cassel and Jaime in Season 1, Jorah and Barristan Selmy in Season 3 and now Jorah and Thoros himself

If wights are under control of individual Walkers, it seemed awfully convenient that every wight but one went down faster than a Yunkai pillow slave after Jon killed his second Walker.

Speaking of Jon, not only does Daenerys "ride" to his rescue but so does Benjen in the same episode?  Talk about putting the deux into deus ex machina

The Sansa-Arya conflict is just too stupid for words.  I hoping Bran will have some vision that clues him in and he tells Arya to STFU.

Tyrion nattering on about non-hereditary succession while conveniently leaving out how the Dothraki settle such matters.

Even the special effects of seeing the dragons torch the wights didn't have the impact it might have since we saw Drogon do the same to Lannister soldiers just two episodes ago.   I also didn't understand why Daenerys took only Drogon with her two episodes ago, but took all 3 dragons in this episode.

I hope capturing this one wight was worth losing Viserion, but since there were so many suggestions in the episode that Cersei can't be trusted, that I doubt it will be.

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

You want to talk about nitpicks? Those chains were SLACK. How much does a waterlogged dinosaur weigh? They'd be taut, number one, and physically, the leverage that they'd require to haul the dragon up would very likely crack the rest of that ice sheet, making the whole idea even less probable. 

 Exactly. Too many issues to list, quite frankly. 

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

So basically Jon is a shit ruler who endangers the lives of people who follow him, getting them killed needlessly. As he gets his people killed and he replaces them with new people who pledge their loyalty and he gets them killed needlessly. No wonder he needs Daenerys' armies and dragons. Hopefully, now that he has pledged his loyalty to her, she stops listening to his and Tyrion's harebrained schemes so she can continue to keep her people alive. She needs much better military advisors. Hopefully, Jorah and Grey Worm will regain their wits next season.

The most maddening thing is that it's clear we're not supposed to think Jon is a shit ruler. They just make him stupid every time the plot demands and expect the audience to keep thinking of him as the hero.

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Something is just really off with that scene, because here we have Tyrion using reverse psychology on Dany ("do nothing!"), making her think about heirs while the same time he's telling her that Jon is giving her longing looks (since when?)

This is one of my biggest pet peeves-telling us something is happening instead of showing us. Especially when it comes to developing relationships. We hadn't seen Jon making eyes at Dany in any of the previous episodes, but we have had side characters telling us he was. 

8 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

This was one of the most visually stunning episodes they have ever done. So beautiful that it almost makes me forget how monumentally dumb it is.

Perfect two line summary of the episode.

5 hours ago, GrailKing said:

She's not Arya's sworn sheild, her promise to Cat was to get her girls home and safe, but she pledged her sword and honor to Sansa.

The show appears to disagree with you. They've put in dialogue a couple times now that Brienne is sworn to protect both.

5 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

I’m growing increasing nostalgic for the days when we were all eagerly awaiting a Stark reunion, because the reality has turned out to be disappointing across the board. Not “bittersweet” to use GRRM’s words, but sincerely terrible. Sansa lying to Jon, Rickon getting murdered, Bran losing his humanity, Sansa and Arya at each other’s throats, Jon and Benjen barely getting 10 seconds together. Enough! At this point I’m afraid that any Jon/Arya reunion will be too little too late. The damage has been done.

[snip]

I hate to admit it, but after being adamantly against a Jon/Dany pairing for years, this episode finally convinced me that it’s not such a crazy idea. I actually think they’re doing a good job of showing them be an evenly matched pair. Seriously, when was the last time Dany met a man who didn’t immediately want to kill, screw, or serve her (or some combination thereof)? And when was the last time Jon had a near stranger rush to save him, with no questions asked? And regardless of any sexual chemistry people may or may not see between the actors, it’s clear that the characters have become very relaxed and honest with each other in a relatively short time and have truly earned each other’s respect. Alright show, I give in- let’s see more Jon and Dany!

Completely agree on both fronts. The Stark reunions have been such a huge letdown. What was even the point of bringing Bran home so early if he's not going to share any useful information? And the Jon/Dany pairing is working for me. It's kind of a straightforward romance, which is a nice change for this show (and they still get the dark twist baked in thanks to the unwitting incest).

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

OK, Jon hasn't sent a single raven to Winterfell in weeks given all that's happened?  

It doesn't make any sense and plays like a plot contrivance to justify Sansa's resentment/desire to take over as ruler.

[Francie]

24 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The point of the Seven Samurai (plus assorted red shirts) walking around the North of the Wall until they captured the wights seemed to be so they could chat about events in previous seasons.

Their various snippets of conversation played to me like a Tuesday or Wednesday episode of a daytime soap.  The type of episode where three or four couples sit at different tables at Kelly's or the Brady Pub and the scenes shift from table to table while the couples hash out their issues. 

That reminds me -- I was on Gendry's side when the BWB were so dismissive of what they had done to him.  Davos risked his life to save Gendry.  And, there he was rowing for three years. For being a religious man, THoros should have been more contrite and less "no harm/no foul." That was another very "dude bro" written scene with Gendry mangling the story and the men instantly asking about what Melisandre was or was not wearing. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Francie

[Ottis]

8 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Also worth noting in this regard... the Night King walked right through dragon fire on the ground and it flickered out and died just like any other fire. I have a sneaking suspicion that the dragons are going to prove worthless against the Night King himself (though they will be useful in clearing a path or bringing down the wight dragon for someone like Jon to reach him.

Exactly. One of our heroes will be special, and go after the NK. Maybe Sam. 

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I have always been an Arya fan but she was acting like a PSYCHO this episode. As I said in an earlier episode thread, Sansa probably deserved to be called out but the way she did it was disturbing. People going on about Sansa being rude to Brienne. Arya was calmly and coldly telling her own sister she was going to cut off and wear her face! Deliberately frightening her and enjoying it!  This isn't her avenging her family against the Freys. I'm not going to root for her this time. Telling that heartwarming story about Ned for the punchline that it was Sansa's fault he died? WTF? She knew even Jon would be more understanding about the letter. Arya doesn't care that turning the lords against Sansa would hurt Jon too. Arya despises Sansa not for her snobby attitude.  She despises her for being "weak" and I think that's why some fans hate her too.

If the whole Arya vs. Sansa thing isn't a set up of Littlefinger by one or both of the sisters, I'm going to be disappointed. The only other logical option is that Arya is essentially insane after all she has been through, which has been my theory so far. I'm still hoping for a sisters team up for the win.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm not gonna go a thousand rounds about Arya and Sansa. After last night's episode, I really hate them both. I always had a hard time with book Sansa specifically, and now I just can't stand either one of them on the show and the Winterfell plot needs to fucking die already.

That said, D&D need to check themselves when they start talking about female power and empowering women and whatever BS they peddle that they think is "women empowerment", or any writer out there for that matter who doesn't get what it means. It goes from that Lyanna Mormont comment about fighting vs knitting, which honestly, for me, why put down women who knit and transform wool into something to wear.

Arya is threatening Sansa and Sansa is bitching Brienne out, treating her like something she stepped on and Brienne just stands there and accepts it because that seems to be the extent of her job, meanwhile we have Jon & Co, who might as well have been sitting around a table with a cold one, working out whatever issues they have because they are working towards the same goal. And in the end, these guys have respect for each other. Grudging respect, but respect nonetheless. 

But you know, women, they can't work out their problems with each other, they just bitch each out other instead because we are so unreasonable. So fuck you D&D, just fuck you. My wish is to never hear them talk about how powerful the women on the show are ever again. But I guess for them a powerful woman is one who is put in a position of power, and that's the end of that. So whatever.

The episode was a bit of a mess, I thought. The Winterfell plot made me wanna stop watching. Viserion's death was just sad, wights using chains to pull him out of the ice was exceptionally weird. Davos's adoptive sons need to stop giving  the man frights in his "old" age.

For the first time ever, someone actually came out and told Jon that he doesn't look like Ned, and that was the most shocking thing for me in the whole episode. And also weird. I was not prepared.

The CGI of the dragons unleashing their fire was very cool and Jon facing the NK was also neat.

But honestly, watching the size of that army and the sheer number of wights standing there, it doesn't seem like they had a prayer with three dragons, it seems they have even less of a prayer now with NK raising Viserion as his mount. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by YaddaYadda
I can't spell words

[Pixiebomb]

Dany north of the wall. I loved the Fire and Ice. Super cool but I was afraid she was going to dismount Drogon and start bellowing out her rendition of "Let it Go". 

Sorry.  <ducks, dodges the Hound's snowball>. I'll show myself out. 

[Francie]

13 minutes ago, stagmania said:

The show appears to disagree with you. They've put in dialogue a couple times now that Brienne is sworn to protect both.

But the show is dead wrong on this.  We saw how it played out. Brienne swore an oath to Lady Catelyn to escort Jaime Lannister to King's Landing and return her girls safely. 

Then, in the beginning of Season 6, Brienne swore a new oath to Sansa. Just Sansa. 

The writers are dead wrong about this one, and no amount of them telling me the sky is brown with pink spots is going to make me accept it.    

Edited August 21, 2017 by Francie

[Drogo]

The first time the Hound threw a stone at a wight, I was like:

The second time the Hound threw a stone at a wight, I was like:

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Here for bisexual Tormund. 

For all that Tyrion said that one never gets used to the dragons, he was fine with stomping after Dany right past them when he was trying to convince her not to go.

Dany's fur outfit slayed. Best thing she's ever worn in the show, hands down.

I laughed at Benjen refusing Jon urging him to save himself with "There's no time!" Dude, there was plenty of time.

Re: Benjen, I took that to mean "there's no time for me to explain how I'm a wight - sort of, but Not completely... it's complicated, and I can't ride back with you because I won't be able to pass through the Wall because I'm dead." Or something. David and Dan referred to Benjen as "Coldhands" in the Inside the Episode video. They said that he's been stuck in purgatory between life and death without knowing his purpose until he was able to help save Bran and Jon. We all learned this last season but it's too bad Jon didn't get to know it. 

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, stagmania said:

The show appears to disagree with you. They've put in dialogue a couple times now that Brienne is sworn to protect both.

Then I guess she did that off screen.

So they want Brieene to break a vow, to choose one sister over another, to force her to bring dishonor on herself ?

Almost as bad as trading a wight for a dragon.

[Paradigm14]

7 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Right.  She's a captive at Harrenhall, but just goes to find some rat poison, because we know for certain there are rats there......because, there are big old honkin' rats used to torture people.  Place the rat in a bucket,  on someone's stomach, and light the bucket on fire to make the rat eat their way out, to make the person talk.

Seriously, Arya had no idea what the Faceless Men were in Harrenhall.  So, which one of her captors is she going to ask for the rat poison?  The rat torture peeps?

She wasn't just a captive at that point but a member of the staff. And given a postion of trust to taste Tywin's food and drink, to check it for poison. No, she did know Jacquen was a killer at that point and could have asked. And most people who had been in a medieval kitchen which would include even her, would have a clue of how to do a few basic poisons, some equivalent of putting a little cleaner in the coffee. Not that hard.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Paradigm14

[Tony]

There's one thing about Daenerys, she gets things done. RIP dragon.

Shut up, Tyrion.