S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[MarySNJ]

8 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Ok, another question. Why was Jon the only one carrying a wight killing weapon?  It seems pretty stupid not to.

He wasn't the only one. At least some of them had dragon glass daggers. I think it was Sandor who took it out from inside his coat after the war hammer failed to have any real effect on the wights.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Francie said:

Was that Tyrion's plan? I thought it was Jon's. And exchanging one wight for one dragon is not exactly a great trade. 

Okay, no one here is stupid enough to think that Cersei's gonna change her gameplan upon seeing the wight.  Why are all the people who actually know her even more blind to that? 

I think Tyrion's in a serious conflict between family and Danny, and Jon's already been warn about Cersei, by Sansa, but he told everyone north he needs to take that chance.

Tunnel vision is all he has right now.

[jeansheridan]

I am going to focus on what worked.

The Hound works for me. His attitude, his fear of fire, how his boredom started the second fight, and his grudging respect for Tormund. We are seeing a deeply cynical and hurt man finding something to believe in. It is a great arc.

Beric's voice. Give that man all the voiceover  work he can handle.

Dany & Jon work for me as family. Yes, I get that even Tyrion is shipping them (and Jorah and Tormund and Davos), but only because they are short-sighted. Pretty woman=sexual partner. I am not saying Jon is above those thoughts, but he has shown remarkable restraint since Ygritte. Even in the books he is not a hound dog like Tormund. So I see the beginning of a beautiful platonic friendship.

Tormund is hilarious and while his plans for Brienne are plain and blunt, I love that he has goals. It is nice that she is the object of someone 's admiration. (And how much did I love that the Hound remembered her full name? That loss stung! )

 

I think the Night King set a trap. I am not sure how he knew about the dragons except he is so old he remembers the originals and hoped to see some again and made plans.

 

I missed Bran. His distance from his sisters is frustrating. I wanted to see him plotting and pondering. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by jeansheridan
Spelling

[Bryce Lynch]

10 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I was reminded of when he wanted Joffery, a child, to lead the army against Stannis. Yet here he is advising Daenerys, a grown woman, a queen who rides dragons, to stay hidden behind the walls. They are ruining Tyrion and I don't understand why.

I was thinking about that too.  At first I thought it might have been sexism, but:

a) Tyrion loves and admires Dany and hated Joffrey.  

b) It really was important to have the King participate in the battle,  for the morale of the troops.

c) Dany has immense value to the realm and to the world. Losing her would be catastrophic. Joffrey was a  cruel, little,  sociopath c***.  His death would be addition by subtraction. 

You could argue Tyrion was right, as losing Viserion and having him turned into a weapon of the Night King was arguably a worse outcome than losing Jon and the rest of the 7 brave idiots.  I still don't get why they didn't just ask Cersei to send a couple of men she trusted north of the wall with them to see the wights and the White Walkers, rather than try to bring one back.  

[Hana Chan]

There were several points that came to mind after having a night to ruminate on this ep.

First, the baby anvils for Jon and Dany were dropping hard and fast. We're got Tyrion warning Dany to give some attention to what is going to happen after she takes the Iron Throne and warning that the changes she wants to see will take more than her lifetime to accomplish. Then we've got Jon and Jorah having their little heart to heart, with Jon offering to return Longclaw to Joreh and gets told to have some children and hold it for them. Then we've got Dany telling Jon outright that the dragons are her children because she cannot have children of her own. If there is not a surprise pregnancy due to Jon's magical secret Targaryen sperm, I'll be very, very shocked.

Second, Tryion's talk with Dany about planning for the future. I'd said it before that Dany's talk of "breaking the wheel" is pretty meaningless until we get some kind of idea of just what that's going to mean and what her succession is going to look like since she is (as far as she knows) barren. It's not that taking the throne shouldn't be Dany's first consideration, but she needs to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. This is not something that's a good idea to shove completely to the backburner and ignore until it becomes something that she suddenly has to deal with. A little thought on the issue would not be out of place and shows the weakness of Dany's plans.

Third, when it comes to ruling, we get a lot of talk about the right to rule. Whether they claim it by right of blood (Dany, Stannis, Renly and Sansa) or right by might (Cersi), What we don't hear a lot of is the responsibility that comes with ruling. We know that Cersi certainly doesn't give a crap about the common folk and the fate of the world - just so long as it doesn't stand in the way of her getting and keeping power. Dany pays some lip service to wanting to make the world a better place, but in the end, her first priority is still getting her tush onto the Iron Throne. So far, the only one in a leadership position who sees the role as being responsible for the wellbeing of all that they rule over is Jon. The one who didn't seek out this power and kind of had it shoved onto him is the one who sees his obligation the clearest and actually is living up to it.

Jon is the only one so far who was willing to actually sacrifice for his people. He might be KITN, but he refuses to ask anything of those that follow him than he isn't willing to do himself. He puts himself in direct danger alongside his men (much to Davos's consternation) because he believes so strongly in what he's fighting for. Refusing to bend the knee to Dany wasn't about protecting his own power, but not getting what he needed from her in order to protect his people. Now that Dany has seen the NK's army for herself and realizes what's actually at stake, she's finally come around to Jon's POV and is willing to put aside worrying about the Iron Throne and is going to give Jon her full support. It's only then that he's willing to accept her as Queen (should they all live that long). Jon was willing to sacrifice his own life and his own power in order to give everyone their best chance for surviving the long winter. Which makes him a pretty remarkable man.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Hana Chan

[Francie]

I've come to realize that the only man with a plan this episode was the Night King. 

[nachomama]

All these heart to heart talks between the Magnificent 7, The Hound and Tornumd, Jon and Jorah, Jon and Beric and still no conversation about Sam saving Jorah. sigh.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

Are you seriously saying that Brienne is just going to go and kill Arya? Because Arya scared Sansa with her FM talk after she found Sansa snooping in her room?

Brienne has sworn to protect both daughters! You don't think the sensible option here is to confide in Brienne and tell her everything and ask her to go talk to Arya first? Instead of sending her off to frigging Cersei because Cersei send them a letter? So she is sending Brienne off to meet a dangerous, untrustworthy person instead of having her intercede between her sister and herself? That's the sensible decision to take?

Sansa comes across as an utter moron here. Instead of trusting in Brienne, she trusts in LF of all people. Why is she discussing Arya with LF? Why is she not using Brienne to keep an eye on LF and see how Arya got the letter? There are so many ways she can use her body guard, but instead she does not bother to explain anything and rudely sends her off to meet with Cersei.

If Sansa was trusting LF, she keep Brieene close, she doesn't trust him, I think she sees him into having Brieene having to choose between one of Cat's girls; a dishonorable act that LF is happy to do if it gets him what he wants.

I'm not sure in Arya current state of mind about Sansa, she trust or listen.

How would Brieene feel towards Arya's peeled faces?

This is D & D's doing.

[Blonde Gator]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Because Brienne was not going just as Catelyn's emissary but was entrusted with getting Jaime safely to KL? And Jaime was there to ensure nothing happened to Brienne.

And in this case, Brienne is specifically working with Sansa who has no idea if Jaime is still there. Does she not wonder why Cersei sends the letter in the first place? If she thinks it's dangerous for her and maybe a trap, would it not be equally dangerous for Brienne? Sansa keeps harping on about how Cersei could cross the icy North and murder them all, but she thinks Brienne is going to be safe in KL?

But it's okay to send Brienne to meet with her? Just to get her out of Winterfell?

I think both Sansa & Brienne are relying on the fact that Jaime is there, and that Jaime will give Brienne a measure of safety from Cersei.  Which of course, is probably exactly wrong!  But as another poster said, they need characters A, B, & C to be in location X for Y scene......so contrived reason(s) to get them there.

[YaddaYadda]

Has anyone else noticed that the eyes of the wolf's head on Longclaw changed to blue when Jon emerged from the water and grabbed it? 

Edited August 21, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Hana Chan]

One thing that I forgot to mention - the group that went beyond the Wall are a perfect analogy for what must happen in Westeros. Here we have a whole group of people who have absolutely no reason to be allies. They have very real grievances with one another, yet talked things out and put things aside because they are seeing the bigger picture. As Jon said last week, they're all ultimately on the same side because they're still breathing and in the end the things that separated them end up being very petty and unimportant. Men who had every reason to want to see one another dead now were willing to fight and die for one another. It's a pretty profound shift.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

Not to mention that if she does manage to disarm Arya without killing her, she becomes the kind of impeccable character witness obliged to state that yes, Arya DID threaten the regent appointed by King Jon himself - which would be treason, punishable by death - likely the result LF is aiming for. Even if Sansa commutes the sentence to imprisonment or exile, the relationship between the sisters will be irretrievably broken - probably what LF wants.

This:

This is a serious cat and mouse game between teacher and student.

Sansa's putting her trust in Arya, and hoping like hell her decision for Brieene is a correct one.

That pose in the chair, just like in Winterfell tells a lot of what she's thinking.

[domina89]

9 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

And on that note, congrats Jon Snow: you are now officially as dumb as your brother Robb. Giving up your power because you fancy a girl. I know it's been like, 5 seasons since you've seen a girl not a foot taller than you, but seriously. There was no need to bend the knee there. She's on your side now and she's seen your abs. She should be pissed at you for that mission and the death of her child and instead she's all a flutter.

The mission was Tyrion's idea, not Jon's.  He isn't responsible for that.  Yes he did ask Dany to come help them, but he didn't ask her to bring all her dragons.  That was her idea.   

And as far as kneeling goes, Jon initially came to Dany asking for her help but offered nothing in return. She made a goodwill gesture in allowing him to mine the dragonglass despite his refusal to give her the North.  Jon has hardly any men left to fight the WW at this point. His only hope is Dany's forces and her dragons, because there's very little possibility that Cersei will ever help him. Dany made another goodwill gesture by rescuing him and the others, at much risk to herself and at the terrible cost of one of her precious children. If Jon had not offered her the North in return for these gestures on her part, I would seriously question his honor. He needed to show her his appreciation for both the rescue and her pledge to help him fight the NK.  Jon has exactly two things he can offer her at this point, his fealty and himself. We know she wants the North, but whether she wants Jon as well remains to be seen (I suspect she does or will very soon).  If the Northern lords can't understand the difficult position he is in, then the Others take them, literally, because they don't deserve either Jon or Dany's help.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

The Lady doth protest too much, methinks. 

Kind of tough being compared to Khal Drogo AKA Jason Mamoa.

[proserpina65]

I just can't with Arya anymore.  She's turned into a little psychopath with no idea how to lead people.  Sansa wasn't making the best decisions in this episode, but at least she understands that the Starks need their bannermen's men and the knights of the Vale if any of them are going to survive.  Arya's notions on how to deal with dissent remind me of Robb's, and we all know what that got him.

[mac123x]

14 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

But as another poster said, they need characters A, B, & C to be in location X for Y scene......so contrived reason(s) to get them there

Yeah, and we all know how well it worked out when Cercei had all of her enemies gathered in one specific location last season.  Though I do admit I think it'd be kinda funny if Cercei set off another wildfire bomb and both Dany and Jon walked out of it unscathed.  Dany: "You're immune to fire also?  Huh.  We must be related.  Let's make out."

[DigitalCount]

How about that great scene with Tyrion and Dany:

Tyrion: Sometimes you lose your temper.

Dany: (proceeds to lose temper)

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

She walked up to her holding a knife, talking about cutting her face off. If Brienne saw that, do you think that would look to her like a harmless childish prank? If she were there and did nothing, she'd be a pretty poor bodyguard.

And a dishonored one to boot.

Win,Win for LF.

[Francie]

I think both Sansa & Brienne are relying on the fact that Jaime is there, and that Jaime will give Brienne a measure of safety from Cersei.

Agreed. That's why Sansa mentions him. 

[Pixiebomb]

If Dany is going to lead her army north to fight the NK then she is going to seriously need a stop at Burlington Coat Factory. Her dothraki are bare chested and bare footed and the Unsullied are not clad for winter either.  I'm going to be a little upset if in the next scene they are all dressed like the Night Watch. Who knows, maybe they have warehouses of winter gear in all those abandoned forts and hold fasts. 

[Blonde Gator]

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I wouldn't worry about Brienne being killed off, not before she can fight some White Walkers at least. She's a badass warrior woman armed with Valyrian steal, D&D aren't going to waste such an opportunity, especially as I think her mere presence will be enough for Jaime to break away from Cersei. She can talk some sense to him, and she is a reminder that he isn't utterly friendless and Cersei isn't his only ally.

Cersei could flip Jaime out permanently in a thousand different ways, I agree.  I think when she decides to finally cut his heart out (metaphorically), it will be more personal between the two of them.  "It was Euron's baby, you fool!".  Or something like that. 

There have been so many "moments" that fandom has been longing for on this show, (reunions, Drogon flying combat air cover) that the show runners have paid off, so I still think we're FINALLY going to see Jamie realize what a galactic  idiot he's been staying with Cersei so long........choke the bitch out (Valonquar), and join Tyrion & Team Dany.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Yeah, and we all know how well it worked out when Cercei had all of her enemies gathered in one specific location last season.  Though I do admit I think it'd be kinda funny if Cercei set off another wildfire bomb and both Dany and Jon walked out of it unscathed.  Dany: "You're immune to fire also?  Huh.  We must be related.  Let's make out."

Is Jon immune to fire?  Didn't he badly burn his hand on the lantern when he killed the wight in Season 1?

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, GraceK said:

It just makes everyone other character  look unbelievably naive and stupid to think she can be reasoned with.

Except one, and she's a bit busy, holding down a fort in the north.

[Pixiebomb]

And regarding the Arya/Sansa scene. I thought it was interesting that Arya left the VS dagger with Sansa.  

Maybe Arya is trying to make Sansa afraid so that she will keep the dagger close. 

I really thought Bran gave Arya the dagger because she was going to need it to kill a ww at some point. But now Sansa has it. I just don't know where the writers are going with this. I hope they do. 

[Haleth]

4 minutes ago, Pixiebomb said:

And regarding the Arya/Sansa scene. I thought it was interesting that Arya left the VS dagger with Sansa.  

Maybe Arya is trying to make Sansa afraid so that she will keep the dagger close. 

I really thought Bran gave Arya the dagger because she was going to need it to kill a ww at some point. But now Sansa has it. I just don't know where the writers are going with this. I hope they do. 

I was assuming Arya would end up killing LF with it, but maybe it will turn out to be Sansa that kills LF.  Or maybe they can go all Agatha Christie and have all the Stark kids stab him.

[cambridgeguy]

11 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

So the Night's King just told his wights to bring some big ass chains with them on the journey just in case? 

Unlike Jon (who likes to go adventuring in a snow storm without a nice winter hat or any other supplies) the NK knows how to pack.  He might have needed the chains anyway to rip down the entrances at the Wall.

I think the question Jon needs to answer is - if Dany were an ugly old man would he still be ready to bend the knee after this episode?  He went to Dragonstone to ask for her help in fighting the NK.  Now he has it since she wants revenge for Viserion, so he's got what he originally wanted and all it cost him were a few red shirts and his undead uncle.

[sumiregusa]

The only thing slightly believable about this episode was Olympic Champion javelin thrower Night's King, Esq. I buy him being a BAMF.

I'm really so done with D&D and their inability to do anything but bungle and fan-service their way through an entire season. Just straight up trash.

[WebosFritos]

Well, Dany (Jon should have said it's way easier to say than Daenerys), that’s how you earn loyalty. I can’t believe she came with not one but three dragons to rescue them. Way to go even though she paid a terrible price. I know a lot of people complain about Emilia’s acting but I think she was really wonderful in that last scene. She really shines when she’s allowed to show some emotions. At that point, it made sense to me that Jon would bend the knee because she promised to help him and lost one of her children while helping them.

And Jon, at least wait until you're back at the Wall and safe before you offer to give up your greatest protection against the white walkers. He is far too honour-bound sometimes.

 

9 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

Even if you can't convince Cersei, you can convince those who follow her and support her. Most people follow her out of fear. Those who don't fear her but support her (I'm eyeing you, Jaime) might be convinced to turn against her.

I agree, they can still try to convince the people around her if she can't see reason. And this mission did succeed in securing the help of the most important ally: Dany. 

 

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

I really, really want a spin off-- Tormund and the Hound on the road discussing life, love, and... whatever.  Thoros would have made a great back seat (drunk) commentator but he's dead.

Shut up, Arya.  Shut up, Sansa.

Instead of Uncle Benjen showing up out of nowhere (how random was that?), I so wish the remaining dragon would have landed so Jon could fly out in style.

The compression of time (Gendry to the Wall, raven to Dragonstone, dragons to the rescue) was ridiculous.  And where DID those chains come from?

I noticed that Rhaegal flew away as soon as he saw Viserion dead on the ice. And if I remember correctly he wasn't at the Wall at the end. He definitely needs a rider and that's why I think Jon had to be left behind because they didn't want his first time on a dragon to be with Drogon.

 

13 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Has anyone else noticed that the eyes of the wolf's head on Longclaw changed to blue when Jon emerged from the water and grabbed it? 

Yes, I thought I was seeing things. I wonder, is the weapon special or is it just a show nod about Jon defying the odds once again?

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

I think so, too.  He had an ice javelin prepared, along with the chains.  There's also a GIF going around -- a close up of Long Claw (with its hilt made out of weirwood), when Jon is submerged in the water and comes out.  The eye of the wolf goes from solid white, like an animal warged, to an eye with a pupil.  My take -- the Night King can watch them through Long   Claw. 

My question is - how does Sandor's vision of the mountain play into this?  What role does this "Lord of Light" or whatever force it is have? 

Oh, and upon further reflection of last night's show, I can't help but imagine what my reaction would have been if I had been Sansa finding that bag of faces. It would have gone:

Ewwww!!!!! Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God!!!!!! My God!! My .... What the fuck???!!!!!! What the serious fuck!!!!! Is this real??? No, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God. Like, what IS that? Like that's a fake substance, right?!!! I mean, totally creepy, but at least ... Oh my God oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god. EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! [Repeat for 10 hours] 

I had this discussion (Long Claw's Eye) last week, and the conclusion is that the rubies have fallen out, and there is merely a hole drilled through the pommel.  So you can see all the way through to the back ground....when Jon comes out of the water, his black clothing makes it appear as if the eye turns dark.  I tried watching the pommel of the sword carefully, and they never give you a really good view of it, except in that part of the episode. 

The whole story is about two opposing forces, Ice and Fire...and how they work in opposition, and potentially in concert.  We haven't heard much ranting about "The Great Other" from Mel of late, but basically there are two forces in the world, Dark/Light, represented by Ice and Fire.  There are many theories, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are No Gods, because GRRM is an atheist.   I'm not sure that we'll ever get these details cleared up on the show, because of the way it's being written these days.  Checklist, Checklist by Character, Point A, Point B, Done, Next!  Because next season we have to have the entire War for the Dawn, and the Dreams of Spring.  Two books (unwritten) worth of story in one season left, and it's taken HBO seven years to put five+ books on screen.  I'm trying to tamp down my expectations on the questions I have about so many little details in the book that have thus far been unexplained.  I wish George would release WOW....but NO, he's just re-released The Mystery Knight for the third time, this time in graphic novel form.  *sigh*

[mac123x]

22 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Is Jon immune to fire?  Didn't he badly burn his hand on the lantern when he killed the wight in Season 1?

In the books, he definitely got burned.  I don't remember how much they dwelt on it on the show.  I was just being silly, though I wouldn't be surprised if the writers use the immunity-to-fire thing as a way to convince Dany that Jon is a secret Targaryen.

Edited August 21, 2017 by mac123x

[domina89]

4 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

I agree, they can still try to convince the people around her if she can't see reason. And this mission did succeed in securing the help of the most important ally: Dany. 

I couldn't make out much from the preview, but it would be great if in the next episode, the wight demo in KL is open to the public.  People need to see what's going on for themselves.  I can't imagine Cersei would want that, however- especially since she has no regard for her people or what they think.

 

6 minutes ago, WebosFritos said:

I noticed that Rhaegal flew away as soon as he saw Viserion dead on the ice. And if I remember correctly he wasn't at the Wall at the end. He definitely needs a rider and that's why I think Jon had to be left behind because they didn't want his first time on a dragon to be with Drogon.

Oh yes- if Jon is going to ride a dragon, it is definitely going to be presented as a huge moment on the show.  As an aside to that, why didn't we get more reaction from Jon's crew about seeing, much less RIDING, a dragon for the first time??? I would have thought at least one of them would mention it.  No time, I guess.  Sigh.

[Francie]

27 minutes ago, Pixiebomb said:

If Dany is going to lead her army north to fight the NK then she is going to seriously need a stop at Burlington Coat Factory. Her dothraki are bare chested and bare footed and the Unsullied are not clad for winter either.  I'm going to be a little upset if in the next scene they are all dressed like the Night Watch. Who knows, maybe they have warehouses of winter gear in all those abandoned forts and hold fasts. 

It's still my head canon that the Dorthrakis head for Dorne the second they feel a snowflake land on their cheeks. 

.... Brienne would have rushed in and chopped off Arya's head with Oathbreaker?

"Oathkeeper."

~Jaime, grumbling under his breath about how he never gets a break. 

[Enigma X]

Why are most people saying it was Jon's idea to capture a wight? It was Tyrion's. Dany acquiesced, and Jorah and Jon volunteered to go on the misadventure.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, mac123x said:

In the books, he definitely got burned.  I don't remember how much they dwelt on it on the show.  I was just being silly, though I wouldn't be surprised if the writers use the immunity-to-fire thing as a way to convince Dany that Jon is a secret Targaryen.

On the show, he cried out in pain as he thew the lantern and he had a bandage on his hand the next day.  There was some discussion about how long it would be before he could use the hand again.  

[Uncle JUICE]

11 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Oh yes- if Jon is going to ride a dragon, it is definitely going to be presented as a huge moment on the show.  As an aside to that, why didn't we get more reaction from Jon's crew about seeing, much less RIDING, a dragon for the first time??? I would have thought at least one of them would mention it.  No time, I guess.  Sigh.

LOL. I now imagine a portion of their ride back where Tormund and Jorah are talking and Tomrund's all "Look, I know that sucked overall, Viserion being dead really blows, but how cool was riding that dragon?" And jorah says "Come on dude, too soon!...but yeah, that was pretty awesome."

[that one guy]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

11 hours ago, Francie said:

Okay, no one here is stupid enough to think that Cersei's gonna change her gameplan upon seeing the wight.  Why are all the people who actually know her even more blind to that? 

I think Tyrion's in a serious conflict between family and Danny, and Jon's already been warn about Cersei, by Sansa, but he told everyone north he needs to take that chance.

Tunnel vision is all he has right now.

Cersei already has a wight which means she (or Qyburn) is already somewhat in league with the NK, wittingly or otherwise. But nobody in the North or Dragonstone knows this. She's always been ambitious, but re-watching previous seasons she was always complicated, she wasn't a Total Evil Psychopath until she returns from imprisonment and the Walk of Shame and learns that Myrcella is dead. Watching the scene where Jaime arrives home with the coffin on a boat, she doesn't have any lines but you can see the light go out of her eyes as her soul dies and she becomes a supervillain right there.

In the past, she did things like mentor Sansa to try to teach her to be a good Queen when the time came (after her fashion). It's been quite a character arc, and nobody's seen it all except for the audience and Jaime.

Also, if she weren't pregnant, it's reasonable to think a survivor like her would be willing to take the knee in exchange for being named Lady of the Rock, Warden of the West, and Hand of the Queen, in order to survive. From that position, she would be in a position to take the throne back from within the palace (again). But now, with the possibility of establishing a dynasty, she's more likely to try to murder everyone else ASAP to secure her legacy.

It's too dangerous for Arya to remain in Winterfell. If I wrote this show, I would tell a girl that a queen has stolen a king from the many faced god and a debt is owed, and give a girl a name to go balance the scales. A queen as the name of a king, after all, one who killed her allies and has a distressing taste for eyeliner. This would get a girl out of the house and giver her something useful to kill. Alas, I don't write this show.

[Francie]

 I was reminded of when he wanted Joffery, a child, to lead the army against Stannis. Yet here he is advising Daenerys, a grown woman, a queen who rides dragons, to stay hidden behind the walls. They are ruining Tyrion and I don't understand why.

Tyrion's long been ruined, I would argue. But, be that as it may, Tyrion's attitudes toward protecting Joffrey and Dany have not been divergent. 

Tyrion wanted the troops to see Joffrey, but he was consumed with his welfare.  He had bodyguards around him all the time, whose purpose was to protect Joffrey and not wage war.  Joffrey was not in the vanguard, but in the back.  And if there had been a sufficient amount of trouble around him, Tyrion would have sent him back. 

Dany, on the other hand, is flying above the battlefield. As Tyrion said, he saw arrows whiz by her. 

So, no, Tyrion is not being a hypocrite. And he's certainly not being a hypocrite on the grounds that Dany is a woman. 

[Blonde Gator]

30 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I was assuming Arya would end up killing LF with it, but maybe it will turn out to be Sansa that kills LF.  Or maybe they can go all Agatha Christie and have all the Stark kids stab him.

That would be very cool.

Pycelle's death, Version 2.0.  Instead of Little Birds getting all stabby on Pycelle, all of the Stark kids going to town on Little Finger.   Maybe with Bran sitting there just mind-stabbing Little Finger, since it's hard for Bran to move around.  

[Francie]

5 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Why are most people saying it was Jon's idea to capture a wight? It was Tyrion's. Dany acquiesced, and Jorah and Jon volunteered to go on the misadventure.

Most people aren't. I mistakenly thought that, and asked, and I've received the correct answer four times, now.  So most people have it right. Including, now, me. 

[Door]

Sorry if someone's already said this but I think, upon reflection, that Sansa has sent Brienne to KL to protect Brienne. Brienne is honorable and right in the way Ned was honorable and right - and look how LF set him up! If LF mentions to you that someone owes you a debt, he's already setting you both up for a fall five or ten moves away. The very fact that LF is whispering in Sansa's ear means that she can deduce he has Brienne in play on his chessboard. Sending Brienne protects Brienne and Arya and Sansa from that particular chess move and removes a winning strategy (set up the reliably honor-blind pawn) from LF's chess board. 

Not sure what good it will do in the long run but I buy her motivation for now. 

I'm squicked out by John/Dany. Royal incest happened all the time irl and on this show, I know. But I can't get over it.

Emilia Clarke doesn't usually bother me but I was underwhelmed by her response to the death of one of her children. That really required more of a reaction that what was given. 

[Katsullivan]

39 minutes ago, domina89 said:

The mission was Tyrion's idea, not Jon's.  He isn't responsible for that.  Yes he did ask Dany to come help them, but he didn't ask her to bring all her dragons.  That was her idea.   

And as far as kneeling goes, Jon initially came to Dany asking for her help but offered nothing in return. She made a goodwill gesture in allowing him to mine the dragonglass despite his refusal to give her the North.  Jon has hardly any men left to fight the WW at this point. His only hope is Dany's forces and her dragons, because there's very little possibility that Cersei will ever help him. Dany made another goodwill gesture by rescuing him and the others, at much risk to herself and at the terrible cost of one of her precious children. If Jon had not offered her the North in return for these gestures on her part, I would seriously question his honor. He needed to show her his appreciation for both the rescue and her pledge to help him fight the NK.  Jon has exactly two things he can offer her at this point, his fealty and himself. We know she wants the North, but whether she wants Jon as well remains to be seen (I suspect she does or will very soon).  If the Northern lords can't understand the difficult position he is in, then the Others take them, literally, because they don't deserve either Jon or Dany's help.

Thank you for this.

I can't with people still spouting that Dany is not thinking about making people's lives better - apparently she only liberated Slaver's Bay for shits and giggles - or that she's selfish for not having a succession plan for a Throne she hasn't claimed. 

People argue that Jon is a reluctant leader and didn't want to be crowned, and yet act shocked that the moment he finally sees that Dany is a worthy Queen - a ruler who is willing to risk herself and those she loves for the greater good -  he bends the knee? 

At this rate, I'm not even sure the North or Westeros deserve Dany. I'd be OK with an ending where she defeats the NW and they're all begging to crown her, and she's like "Nope. I'm outta here. You guys are ingrates."

 

Quote

We know she wants the North, but whether she wants Jon as well remains to be seen 

I think that Dany was still shell-shocked from losing one of her babies, and that's why she pulled away at the end. Then there's the trite, but always delicious, 'mixed signals' trope where they, in turn, feel that they are feeling more than the other person. I don't see how Dany could have missed the puppy dog eyes he was throwing at her, and it must have made her uncomfortable/confused so close to Viserion's death while he, in turn felt so guilty over that, then possible worry that now that he's wearing his heart on his sleeve, she's "not that into him." 

At least I know they can't drag it out indefinitely - they need to establish this relationship and build on it in what - 7 episodes or less. Thank goodness for that. I guess there's something to be said about keeping the two destined love interests apart for 90% of the story. No room for 'will they/won't they stay together' when they finally get on the same page. :D

On 8/16/2017 at 8:30 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Whether Jon did it to one up Jorah or not, the number motivation was fleshed out twice in the episode. Davos said that wildlings will not follow Jorah, and Tormund didn't have a favorable reaction to finding out that Jorah was a Mormont. 

OK, this came up in the Season 7 speculation thread and Tyrion confirms it in this episode when he told Dany that her "admirers" are trying to out-do who can do the most stupid, bravest things. Plus it's so clear in that scene. Jorah comes up with the idea after a long pause where no one seems to know what to do. Dany looks distraught, and Jon cuts his eyes from her face to Jorah and back, as if her concern for Jorah bothered him. He obviously volunteered partly to take the 'shine' off Jorah. 

I honestly don't know what people mean when they say that the Jon/Dany relationship is one-sided (on Dany's part) because how did you miss scenes like this? When Jorah showed up in Dragonstone, Jon was all pleasant to him until Dany hugged him, and then he's glaring so hard at Jorah that Jorah can't even enjoy his beloved Khaleesi because Jon's eyes are boring holes into his skull and Jorah has to pause and give him a 'what's your problem, bro?' look.  Then earlier that episode, there's Jon just chilling at the edge of a cliff, looking out in the skies and waiting - for gods know how long - for Dany to return from battle. 

[Tikichick]

At this point I only have two small thoughts to share.

Is it curious to anyone else that Arya presented that dagger to Sansa with precisely the same movements as LF presented it to Bran?

Was the ginger discussion entirely a setup to make us have deeper insights into Tormund's feelings precisely before we thought we were watching him meet a very gruesome end, or was it simply  way to slip in the kissed by fire reference because it will be meaningful?

[Katsullivan]

27 minutes ago, mac123x said:

In the books, he definitely got burned.  I don't remember how much they dwelt on it on the show.  I was just being silly, though I wouldn't be surprised if the writers use the immunity-to-fire thing as a way to convince Dany that Jon is a secret Targaryen.

Viserys also got burned when he was given his golden crown. Dany's fire-immunity is a show-only super-power unique to her.

 

 

22 minutes ago, domina89 said:

As an aside to that, why didn't we get more reaction from Jon's crew about seeing, much less RIDING, a dragon for the first time??? 

The only person who reacted with non-verbal appropriateness was Tormund. This show is so contrived now that it's ridiculous. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Why are most people saying it was Jon's idea to capture a wight? It was Tyrion's. Dany acquiesced, and Jorah and Jon volunteered to go on the misadventure.

It was Jorah's idea to capture a wight in an offer that seemed more about the show making Jon jealous than anything that's consistent with Jorah's job as Dany's military advisor/Head of her Queens guard. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Katsullivan

[mac123x]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

On the show, he cried out in pain as he thew the lantern and he had a bandage on his hand the next day.  There was some discussion about how long it would be before he could use the hand again.  

Thank you, I thought it had been addressed but I couldn't remember.  I wouldn't put it past the showrunners to hand-wave away that incident though.  I mean, according to GRRM, the Targs aren't immune to fire (Summerhall disaster being a good indication of that).  Dany's survival of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre was supposed to be a one-off, super magical event.  Then last season they had her do a repeat at Vaes Dothrak, so who knows.

[crowceilidh]

Quote

For instance, maybe ... Brienne needs to meet up with Jaime again, and these are the inelegant solutions devised by the show.

Yes, that was my thought number one on the bizarre banishing of Brienne.

[The Kings Foot]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

I've come to realize that the only man with a plan this episode was the Night King. 

Team White Walker

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, that one guy said:

Cersei already has a wight which means she (or Qyburn) is already somewhat in league with the NK, wittingly or otherwise. But nobody in the North or Dragonstone knows this. She's always been ambitious, but re-watching previous seasons she was always complicated, she wasn't a Total Evil Psychopath until she returns from imprisonment and the Walk of Shame and learns that Myrcella is dead. Watching the scene where Jaime arrives home with the coffin on a boat, she doesn't have any lines but you can see the light go out of her eyes as her soul dies and she becomes a supervillain right there.

In the past, she did things like mentor Sansa to try to teach her to be a good Queen when the time came (after her fashion). It's been quite a character arc, and nobody's seen it all except for the audience and Jaime.

Also, if she weren't pregnant, it's reasonable to think a survivor like her would be willing to take the knee in exchange for being named Lady of the Rock, Warden of the West, and Hand of the Queen, in order to survive. From that position, she would be in a position to take the throne back from within the palace (again). But now, with the possibility of establishing a dynasty, she's more likely to try to murder everyone else ASAP to secure her legacy.

It's too dangerous for Arya to remain in Winterfell. If I wrote this show, I would tell a girl that a queen has stolen a king from the many faced god and a debt is owed, and give a girl a name to go balance the scales. A queen as the name of a king, after all, one who killed her allies and has a distressing taste for eyeliner. This would get a girl out of the house and giver her something useful to kill. Alas, I don't write this show.

I don't know, killing a friend at 13, or tweaking your baby bro's penis for shits and giggles, isn't a firm foundation for future sanity.

Sansa, being told her main weapon is sex, and subjects are hens and such, not good lessons. The lesson Sansa learned : How not to be like her, she must still remember those lessons, because she warned Jon about her and she knows she's still a danger to her and Winterfell. If she didn't think that, she go to KL herself; instead she tells us Cersei can come North and take her.

[screamin]

7 hours ago, FemmyV said:

The surprise was that Arya decided to trust her, and hand her the knife. Also thought it was interesting how Maise reverted to her more high-pitched, little girl delivery in that conversation. Perhaps the point was to show them both regressing. (These contrivances have been going on all season.) I do give Sansa a pass on her treatment of Brienne; she could have done it with more tact, but Brienne DID pledge to serve - that means shutting up and taking orders from a 20 YO.

I don't get the feeling that Arya decided to trust her when she handed her the knife. I think it was more a gesture of mockery, saying 'go ahead and take it while I turn my back on you, you don't have the skill or nerve to use it.'

And maybe if Sansa did lunge at her with it she'd have the excuse she halfway wants to kinslay her...but no, I don't think she's there yet.

[domina89]

13 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I honestly don't know what people mean when they say that the Jon/Dany relationship is one-sided (on Dany's part) because how did you miss scenes like this? When Jorah showed up in Dragonstone, Jon was all pleasant to him until Dany hugged him, and then he's glaring so hard at Jorah that Jorah can't even enjoy his beloved Khaleesi because Jon's eyes are boring holes into his skull and Jorah has to pause and give him a 'what's your problem, bro?' look.  Then earlier that episode, there's Jon just chilling at the edge of a cliff, looking out in the skies and waiting - for gods know how long - for Dany to return from battle. 

This makes me think of Dany sitting by Jon's bedside for who knows how long until he wakes up after the wight hunt.  Some time has definitely passed because in the opening shot of the boat, they are out in the open sea and it no longer looks cold like the North.  I don't know how these clues are missed, either, honestly.

[screamin]

9 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Right.  She's a captive at Harrenhall, but just goes to find some rat poison, because we know for certain there are rats there......because, there are big old honkin' rats used to torture people.  Place the rat in a bucket,  on someone's stomach, and light the bucket on fire to make the rat eat their way out, to make the person talk.

Seriously, Arya had no idea what the Faceless Men were in Harrenhall.  So, which one of her captors is she going to ask for the rat poison?  The rat torture peeps?

Poison grows in any neglected garden (like in Harrenhal) in the form of weeds. I've seen nightshade berries growing on the grounds of a hospital (which seemed really wrong to me).