S01.E07: Part VII

[Madding crowd]

I don't think it is odd to have a 23 year old living at home and I didn't say anything about kicking out children at 18 I would never do that. My point was that Cora did not appear to be going to college or working and that seemed odd to me, especially since her mother wasn't very caring to her.

[TattleTeeny]

AH! You know, for some reason, I have never gotten around to seeing Kill Bill! That's weird.

As far as people living at home at Cora's age, it is so not weird from my experience. Or, rather, from my observation; it was not my experience. I was out by 19--and, to be honest, I don't know that I'd recommend it to everyone either. It was hard, I was broke trying to pay for school and rent, and my options for living spaces weren't great either (I was/am in North Jersey; it's not cheap here--a studio apartment is about $1,000/month--so maybe that accounts for young adults living at home for a while?). I really see no problem with someone being at home at that age...or any age, if no one in the home has a problem with it and it works for everyone. Not my business (though, admittedly, I'd probably not choose an S.O. who didn't have his own place). 

Edited September 15, 2017 by TattleTeeny

[nikita]

I found the Beverwyck scene kinda clichéd. Sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll nouveau New Wave? Meh.

After this ep, I shot my TV Elvis-style.

[Straycat80]

Another question I thought of during a bout of insomnia: they have showed a scene several times of Maddie and Cora in the woods, Maddie saying something about Cora wanting to kill her, JD telling them to run, shotgun blast. So when did that happen? After sex and drug basement scene? 

I hope they answer all our questions next week. I'm not going to hold my breathe though. 

[nikita]

10 minutes ago, Straycat80 said:

Another question I thought of during a bout of insomnia: they have showed a scene several times of Maddie and Cora in the woods, Maddie saying something about Cora wanting to kill her, JD telling them to run, shotgun blast. So when did that happen? After sex and drug basement scene? 

I hope they answer all our questions next week. I'm not going to hold my breathe though. 

It was before the basement, on the drive to the Beverwyck club. It wasn't Maddie in reality but actually Phoebe who said Cora wanted her to die. The shots were the guys goofing off/telling Cora to hurry while she washed Phoebe's dress in the river/creek.

Edited September 15, 2017 by nikita

[Zoe]

12 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

I assumed Phoebe looked better because they did her make up to go to the bar.  Lipstick, blush, eyeliner, and mascara can do wonders.  

And they finally washed her grimy hair.

[Simba122504]

I don't think she was creepy. I mean if you spent your entire life being sick and bedridden, you would act strange too. She didn't have a life for 19 years. She didn't even attend school. Nothing but the hospital. Don't forget that crazy ass mama. It's not like she choose not to have sex. Sex was something that was never going to happen to her. You cannot miss something you never had, but you can be obsessed with the thought of it. She wasn't asexual, she had sexual desires. Hell, she's more free dead than alive.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Simba122504

[Pink-n-Green]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 2:13 AM, yourmomiseasy said:

 I'm okay with a filler episode of creepy sister just being let loose on the world and doing her worst.

Bravo!  You made me laugh out loud while I'm listening to a conference call at work.  Thank goodness it was muted!

[lucindabelle]

14 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I love this show.  I think it's brilliant.  Sometimes I think we like putting people in boxes, saying, "if you're sick then you wouldn't act like___"  or, "these people act this way and IRL these people won't act this way."  In real life, people aren't robots and human beings act however they want to act.  

Someone asked why was Cora living at home when she was 23; well I lived at home until I was 24.  There are some people who don't believe in kicking children out when they turn 18, some people believe children should live with them until they get married.

 

I agree. Party of two. I enjoy the show, don't find it stupid or boring at all.

As for people living at home, hell yes. My father may he rest in peace lived at home until he got married (minus the time he was in the army) and so did my mom and aunt. It used to be normal. They all worked but lived home because why pay rent? Now after my aunt divorced she got her own place.

I lived at home for awhile after college, and my brother lived at home after law school and commuted to the city for work. Eventually he got a place in the city.

I actually live with my mother now, but that's a bit different as I lived all over, owned my own house, moved back to this area for work, then my father got sick and died. I have nothing to prove and give zero fucks and don't see why she and I should live alone. I'm not married. If I were, mom would move in with me.

Anyway, 23 isn't eyebrow raising. If she were 33 and had never left the nest to try life on her own, that's a bit different.

As for Phoebe-- I buy her being snarky because it's established early that she reads magazines, probably watches movies, probably plays out scenarios in her head. But she should be physically much weaker. Yes she seems a little unsteady on her feet but her muscles would be quite atrophied.

In reality wouldn't she need homeschooling and physical therapy?

anyway yes it is fascinating to see how wrong Cora's memories were. the "are you coming" wasn't really all that sinister.  

[Madding crowd]

Again I never said Cora shouldn't live at home. I said I found it odd that her crazy religious mother would let Cora live there without going to school or working, let her go out late at night, wear skimpy clothes and makeup etc. I don't see anything wrong, but her mother probably would. My nineteen year lives at home and goes to college. It is possible Cora is working but it hasn't been mentioned. 

[mytmo]

Is there a question of paternity of Cora's son?

[TattleTeeny]

9 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Again I never said Cora shouldn't live at home. I said I found it odd that her crazy religious mother would let Cora live there without going to school or working, let her go out late at night, wear skimpy clothes and makeup etc. I don't see anything wrong, but her mother probably would. My nineteen year lives at home and goes to college. It is possible Cora is working but it hasn't been mentioned. 

She's been shown coming home in some kind of smock/khaki pants combo; I'd assumed that was work clothes.

Edited September 15, 2017 by TattleTeeny

[tennisgurl]

I still wonder if crazy mom has something to do with Phoebe being so sick, and her looking so much better when she isn't at home. Maybe mom is putting something in her food to make her stay sick, and she has actually been fine for years? Yeah it shouldn't take such a short amount of time to get better, but for narrative purposes, its fine if thats where they end up going. 

Or, it could have just been good old fashioned fresh air and a good blush and lipstick combo. It does not seem that far fetched to me. 

[lucindabelle]

46 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I still wonder if crazy mom has something to do with Phoebe being so sick, and her looking so much better when she isn't at home. Maybe mom is putting something in her food to make her stay sick, and she has actually been fine for years? Yeah it shouldn't take such a short amount of time to get better, but for narrative purposes, its fine if thats where they end up going. 

Or, it could have just been good old fashioned fresh air and a good blush and lipstick combo. It does not seem that far fetched to me. 

That was my theory. I had it all worked out. The woman we know as Cora is actually Phoebe, we've been seeing visual sleight of hand in memories, the real Cora died somehow (Phoebe killed her? took on her identity?), Phoebe really was Munchausen by proxy and the being chained to bed was detoxing her.

 

But, the theory apparently is completely wrong.

15 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I don't think it is odd to have a 23 year old living at home and I didn't say anything about kicking out children at 18 I would never do that. My point was that Cora did not appear to be going to college or working and that seemed odd to me, especially since her mother wasn't very caring to her.

Ah. Yes, if she's been out of high school for awhile and isn't in college, she is probably working. 

[Madding crowd]

I'm wondering if there are any more surprises to come. I assume JD and the other creep held Cora prisoner and shot her up with drugs even though it seems a bit of overkill for an accident. I guess Cora could plead temporary insanity but not sure if she could even change her plea at this late date. Unless something else happens I have to say the show teased us with something mysterious and cult like and didn't deliver.

[slothgirl]

I'm going with the theory that Pheebs didn't die that night. It doesn't make sense for the bus body to be hers. There's no way with all the investigation, that it wouldn't be known to the police that Cora had a sister who went missing and whose body was never found. If the body turns out to be Phoebe, then that's a poorly thought out and executed plot twist. If nothing else, that annoying FBI agent would be all over the possibility that the body was Cora's long lost missing sister. I can't remember how they came to identify it as Maddie, but if it's Phoebe, quite a few someones REALLY dropped the ball on investigation and background, not to mention IRL screenwriting.

On the other hand, there was that unidentified blonde in the backyard at JD's that could have been Maddie, so....

Both Frankie and Cora's parents talk about Phoebe beyond the night of her birthday. Frankie's recent girlfriend says that Frankie was involved for a couple of months with someone who changed his life. Her parents say that she died a few months after Cora left. I can believe a scenario where Frankie gets Phoebe to a hospital and she survives for awhile. I can also believe that if she never leaves the hospital, that Frankie would be able to continue to see her because she's over 18 and her parents can't dictate who she allows to visit in the hospital. No crime was committed against Phoebe, so Frankie wouldn't have been known to the police through the incident, especially if neither were tested for drugs.

So that just leaves what happened to Cora for that time. Given that the whole captive sex-slave on the floor, chased by hunters through the woods, weird masked jailer, etc have all turned out to be different from what they led us to believe. I'm thinking that no one kept her prisoner at all. Maybe she was in a facility and had amnesia and the facility couldn't identify her and then she ran away from there. Maybe her track marks weren't from heroin, but from other medicines being given constantly IV. Maybe she did become an addict, but she wasn't a prisoner of someone... it was just her trying to forget her sister "died", and since she went off the grid, she never knew her sister was saved (temporarily). After all, she was unconscious from getting hit in the head with an ashtray at the time. Maybe she forgot how to do an injection the same way she forgot everything else from that time. Or maybe her parents kept her locked up as punishment and she escaped THEM.  Maybe they were hoping she would die so they could use her as an organ donor for Phoebe.

Maybe the line from JD about doing 3 guys on the floor will be a dropped plot point (there were only 2 in the sex we've seen) or maybe there's more crazy sex to come. To be honest, as much as a jerk as he's been, JD doesn't strike me as the type to keep someone prisoner for months. He's more about manipulating people to do what he wants of their own free will and that type of control. But Todd might be. Maybe JD was counting Frankie because Cora kissed him.

Maybe in the excitement to get Phoebe help, Cora got kidnapped by Todd. My bet is on Todd as the one who killed JD to keep him quiet. We also don't really know who the burly guy is/was. (the one who had the mask on in this episode). The show hasn't really given us "throwaway" characters, so he must play a bigger role in events than just "nameless guy who happened to have on the mask".

Edited September 16, 2017 by slothgirl

[slothgirl]

Unrelated to the plot, there have been several references to Lyme disease in this show. Aside from JD supposedly having it, one of the cops won't go searching with Ambrose because he doesn't think it's worth catching Lyme to follow up that tip. I think there was another.

Yes, Lyme is an issue in this region, but the fact that it's been brought up in several ways makes me wonder if it has some significance, or if a writer on the show just wants to call attention to it for reasons unrelated to the story itself.

Edited September 15, 2017 by slothgirl

[Mojeaux]

For me, the eyebrow-raising thing about Cora being 23 and living at home isn’t that she’s 23 and living at home. It’s that Jessica Biel in no way looks 23 and it’s a bit jarring to me every time I hear that. She *looks* old enough to have been long out of the house.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

Unless something else happens I have to say the show teased us with something mysterious and cult like and didn't deliver.

This confuses me because I never got any cult vibes; what I did get were criminal/drug dealer vibes.

[AnimeMania]

I assumed it was what the father wanted, he didn't seem to be as religious as his wife, remember he was having an affair with the neighbor.

The father is very religious, he follows The Bible to the letter, "Love thy neighbor".

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I assume JD and the other creep held Cora prisoner and shot her up with drugs even though it seems a bit of overkill for an accident. I guess Cora could plead temporary insanity but not sure if she could even change her plea at this late date.

If JD and Frankie held Cora prisoner and repeatedly drugged and raped her. If she blocked the event from her memory and seeing Frankie and hearing the song triggered the attack from her subconscious, a jury might be sympathetic enough to find her not guilty.

[Auntie Anxiety]

3 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I'm wondering if there are any more surprises to come. I assume JD and the other creep held Cora prisoner and shot her up with drugs even though it seems a bit of overkill for an accident.

I have a vague recollection of that disgruntled/sexually harassed female worker who also got the same sort of treatment from members of the club, or maybe I'm just imagining this. In any event, I'm preparing myself for a very unsatisfying finale. Too many questions, too many possibilities, too many red herrings, to many scenes that may or may not have happened (which is a huge pet peeve of mine and why I stopped watching Mr. Robot). This feels like one of those shows that asks the viewer to draw his/her own conclusions at the end. 

[TattleTeeny]

You're correct; she was paid to shut up about it, but she spilled it to Detective Bruisy Fingers.

[thuganomics85]

Well, that was a trip!

So, what really happened was that Phoebe went along with Cora to the bar/club and then the country club, where they met Frankie.  She and Frankie hit it off, and everyone went into the basement, snorted some drugs, and Phoebe preceding to have sex with Frankie, while Cora was having sex with some creepy guy that J.D. was trying to "get in business" with, while he watched.  But then Phoebe stopped breathing, leading to Frankie trying to give her CPR, only to accidentally break her ribs, and that leads to Cora attacking (hitting him in the same spots she will eventually knife him), until J.D. knocks her out.  Oh, and as for Maddie, it turns out she left early one and almost all of her past scenes with Cora were actually Phoebe.  Whew!

I do wonder if Phoebe is actually dead, or if there will be more to it.  I suspect she'll still be the body that Ambrose found, but I wonder if she pulls through at first, only for something else to kill her.

Assuming there isn't any more major turns, I am surprised that it looks like Frankie didn't do anything wrong (outside the drug use, I guess), and it wasn't rape.  Phoebe clearly wanted to, knew the risks and was willing to go through with it, and was nineteen, therefore of age.  If anything, even if she did die because of this, I'd suspect she'd be content with that, since she clearly didn't believe she'll ever fully recover and seemed to believe life with her crazy parents was a death in itself.  Now, if he is responsible on some level for hiding her body (assuming she is dead), that is wrong, but certainly not worthy of getting brutally stabbed to death.  All in all, it was just a tragic accident that I'm not sure anyone could really be blamed for (unless it was the drugs, which would place the blame on J.D., I imagine.)

But now that they know all of this, does this mean Cora is going to try for an insanity defense?  Is it too late for that, already?  Because, yeah, I can't say her killing Frankie was justified unless there is more to this.

Hopefully the finale will answer all the questions, and doesn't leave things hanging for a "potential" second season.

[diebartdie]

3 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

SNIP> If she blocked the event from her memory and seeing Frankie and hearing the song triggered the attack from her subconscious, a jury might be sympathetic enough to find her not guilty.

 

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

<SNIP>

But now that they know all of this, does this mean Cora is going to try for an insanity defense?  Is it too late for that, already? 

Cora already plead GUILTY, she is currently awaiting sentencing, the trial ended when she stood up and said "GUILTY" (she even said that TWICE. I believe the second time, which was the one that counted, was due to seeing her evil mother in the court room). I dont even think she can mount an appeal after having plead guilty like she did. The time for an insanity defense or any other defense is well past. She murdered Frankie, we dont 100% know "why" but we know she did, she knows she did, the Court accepts that she did and that she admitted to it openly and (seemingly) free of coercion.

Edited September 16, 2017 by diebartdie
grammar

[Madding crowd]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

This confuses me because I never got any cult vibes; what I did get were criminal/drug dealer vibes.

When Cora was having flashbacks of men in masks and being chained in the basement and men hunting women, some of us speculated it was a cult or group of sadistic men-we didn't know it was only about JD and his druggie friends.

[Teddybear]

This role could have been Jessica Biel's big acting break.   But for some reason she acts the same in prison as she does at a bar and a party.  ????

[slothgirl]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

Hopefully the finale will answer all the questions, and doesn't leave things hanging for a "potential" second season.

Yes, after season 1 of The Killing, I am leery of shows like this. I was so disgusted over the non-ending of The Killing, I didn't even care about tuning in for season 2 to find out more. I was like "Show.. you  are dead to me! DEAD!"

I'm going to feel that way about this one too if they try to hold over significant resolution for season 2. However, with a couple of movie stars in lead roles, I can't imagine they'll go that route. Pullman seems to work consistently, although he really hasn't aged well (unless it;s all padding and makeup).

[HollyG]

1 hour ago, slothgirl said:

Yes, after season 1 of The Killing, I am leery of shows like this. I was so disgusted over the non-ending of The Killing, I didn't even care about tuning in for season 2 to find out more. I was like "Show.. you  are dead to me! DEAD!"

I'm going to feel that way about this one too if they try to hold over significant resolution for season 2. However, with a couple of movie stars in lead roles, I can't imagine they'll go that route. Pullman seems to work consistently, although he really hasn't aged well (unless it;s all padding and makeup).

I loved The Killing but hated the last season. It felt really disjointed. And putting Linden & Holder together was out of left field and didn't feel genuine. They should have just ended it after season 3.

I want to know what happened after Phoebe stopped breathing. I rewatched episode 3 and the parents definitely told Ambrose that she died a couple of months after Cora left. So did Frankie take her to the hospital or did they sneak her back into her parents house? Did  Did he continue to see her? Where was Cora for those months and who was shooting her with heroin? Who killed Maddie? If they don't answer these questions, then this series was a waste of time.

[Shellbell59]

On 9/13/2017 at 8:45 PM, tennisgurl said:

So Cora stabbed Frankie because he accidentally killed her sister during sex? I have to say, I didn't exactly see that coming. I also didn't figure out that when she was remembering the ex girlfriend, she was actually remembering her sister. So, the whole thing isn't some crazy death cult, but just some bros covering up an accidental murder? Or does the murder cult come later? I was promised a murder cult!

Cora constantly saying she "isn't a killer" continues to be rich, especially if this is how things basically end. She might have been crazy at the time, but she did stab a guy over something that was apparently accidental. Unless the aforementioned murder cult becomes a thing. 

IMHO... it may not be "culty" enough for either of us...but...

(I felt promised as well :-D)

 

there IS something to that slimy character Todd...he seems like the club "resident "...even though Frankie has been squatting for a few days...

Me thinks Todd has something to do with the club's ex-employee involved in lawsuit who woke up in a Walmart parking lot naked...the morning after serving at a Bclub party a few years ago...

 

at the the very least...Todd is SICK 

A.F....and he just might give us the "culty"

...as promised...lol :-D

Todd= culty 

 

...

Edited September 16, 2017 by Shellbell59

[Shellbell59]

19 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

AH! You know, for some reason, I have never gotten around to seeing Kill Bill! That's weird.

As far as people living at home at Cora's age, it is so not weird from my experience. Or, rather, from my observation; it was not my experience. I was out by 19--and, to be honest, I don't know that I'd recommend it to everyone either. It was hard, I was broke trying to pay for school and rent, and my options for living spaces weren't great either (I was/am in North Jersey; it's not cheap here--a studio apartment is about $1,000/month--so maybe that accounts for young adults living at home for a while?). I really see no problem with someone being at home at that age...or any age, if no one in the home has a problem with it and it works for everyone. Not my business (though, admittedly, I'd probably not choose an S.O. who didn't have his own place). 

Agree...no problem with a 23 yr old Cora still living at home...

There are contributing variables...

mother...who pretty much blames Cora fora Phoebe's condition...saying..."while I pregnant with you...you sucked the energy of 3 babies...and I had nothing left for your sister "

so Cora stays...obliged to make up for it...

then Phoebe picks up on and plays into the blaming...and...as we see...she guilts Cora about leaving for an evening...let alone moving out (that's why the drama when Phoebe  needs clothes and Cora "happens" to have extra in her bag...)

then there is this overall family obligation...to hold it together for them all...she was trying to get dad not to "visit" mostress across street....

crazy family...I would have been gone asap...

but in my scenario...I don't have a sister on her death-bed...

[AnimeMania]

33 minutes ago, Shellbell59 said:

mother...who pretty much blames Cora fora Phoebe's condition...saying..."while I pregnant with you...you sucked the energy of 3 babies...and I had nothing left for your sister "

The story would have been ten times better if it was written this way. Imagine them showing two little fetuses at various stages of development. Cora and Phoebe were identical twins who are always fighting in the womb. Cora always wins, and Phoebe gets weaker and weaker. Just before Phoebe is about to die, she takes her two little feet and kicks Cora in the head.  Cora stops bothering Phoebe and the girls are born. The only change needed to the story is that the girls are the same age and you can lose the reason that the majority of Phoebe's weakness is due to illnesses. Everything else could be the same. It would explain Cora's brain dead behavior and Phoebe's subconscious willingness to goad Cora into risky behavior. I am going to retcon this in my mind because it adds two stars to the rating I would give to this show.

 

5 hours ago, Teddybear said:

This role could have been Jessica Biel's big acting break

I think Jessica Biel is an A-list celebrity who disappeared from the scene after having a child. She is the producer of the show and could have changed any of the aspects of the TV series. The only thing this series showed my about Jessica Biel is that she is not afraid to have her body shown in good lighting or be touched inappropriately by multiple men.

[Jesse]

14 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

The father is very religious, he follows The Bible to the letter, "Love thy neighbor".

Ha!

I have no further comments about the actual show, but that really made me laugh.

[Shellbell59]

16 hours ago, diebartdie said:

 

Cora already plead GUILTY, she is currently awaiting sentencing, the trial ended when she stood up and said "GUILTY" (she even said that TWICE. I believe the second time, which was the one that counted, was due to seeing her evil mother in the court room). I dont even think she can mount an appeal after having plead guilty like she did. The time for an insanity defense or any other defense is well past. She murdered Frankie, we dont 100% know "why" but we know she did, she knows she did, the Court accepts that she did and that she admitted to it openly and (seemingly) free of coercion.

I'm not a lawyer...(and I don't even play one on TV)..but I believe a court MUST consider personal/or/territorial jurisdiction ALONG WITH complete "subject matter jurisdiction" (all of the facts in the case..including the background leading up to the act) in order to make a FINAL judgment..which becomes final at sentencing phase. 

In this case..the court has Cora's guilty plea..which accommodates the personal jurisdiction..HOWEVER the court DOES NOT have the subject matter jurisdiction in its whole...without knowing the TRUE background and events leading up to Cora killing Frankie..the guilty plea is null...

IMO..she can still have an affirmative defense taken into consideration..since she hasn't yet been sentenced.

also...the discovery of female body...

if weird female detective didn't add charges to include the second murder...if detective AMMENDED the current charge...Cora has yet plead to that..

With State to state differences in law...I don't know if this is the case however.

[Shellbell59]

On 9/14/2017 at 7:46 AM, DakotaLavender said:

This entire exploration of "why" doesn't matter, except to the extent it is interesting. Cora still murdered Frankie at the beach, no matter how this is perceived. She still has to go to prison. 

You do the crime, get ready to serve the time. Sayonara, Cora. 

In a way, it is sad she remembers. Now she has years in jail to ponder what happened. 

 

(Not really, it is fiction and Cora is Jessica Biel) 

Cora going to prison isn't a "done deal" at this point...

now that ALL the facts in the case are coming out..the JUDGE is obligated to hear them...regardless of Cora already pleading guilty.

she could very well end up in a psychological facility..until she is deem fit...not a threat to herself or the community.

[LoveLeigh]

8 minutes ago, Shellbell59 said:

Cora going to prison isn't a "done deal" at this point...

now that ALL the facts in the case are coming out..the JUDGE is obligated to hear them...regardless of Cora already pleading guilty.

she could very well end up in a psychological facility..until she is deem fit...not a threat to herself or the community.

Well it is only fiction, so the writers can craft any ending they want to "save" Cora.... but the fact is no matter how they spin it or make excuses for it, in episode 1 she murdered somebody. 

Murderers can find excuses in their past for doing what they did. And in that case, prisons would be empty because few murders are random. 

[slothgirl]

9 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Well it is only fiction, so the writers can craft any ending they want to "save" Cora.... but the fact is no matter how they spin it or make excuses for it, in episode 1 she murdered somebody. 

Murderers can find excuses in their past for doing what they did. And in that case, prisons would be empty because few murders are random. 

An excuse based on the past is one thing. (and Cora didn't try to make an excuse. She hasn't shown much inclination to escaping justice... only finding out what happened to her). A complete psychotic break where the murderer doesn't know right from wrong, and may even think she is acting to save the life of another because in her mind, her own victim is a danger to someone else... that's textbook legal insanity. (almost so textbook that it's as though the writers read the same law book I am quoting from below in order to craft a perfect scenario that would allow them to have her acquitted)

Legally a person could be deemed "not responsible for criminal acts if as a result of mental disease or defect, he did not understand what he did or that it was wrong, or if he was under a delusion (but not otherwise insane) which, if true, would have provided a good defense". This is the M'Naghten Rule. There have been several modifications and changes to verbiage in the laws in actual use (Durham rule, ALI test), but I can't manually transcribe the entire text from the book. A google search for these terms would give more in depth results.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I play one at home on the internet haha... ...because I have some of my father's law books, and I love to look stuff up when I watch tv to see if they are just making s$&t up. ;)

In actual practice though, legal insanity is a very narrow definition compared to medical diagnosis, and is probably less commonly applied than tv would have us believe. The truly mentally ill are the least likely to have good representation or a fair trial, and are probably encouraged to (or intimidated into) pleading guilty and rushed past the courts and into the prison system. (they are also far more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators)

Edited September 17, 2017 by slothgirl

[Vivigirl10]

Youresourban, I want to like your post 1,000 times!

"Hi, I'm Phoebe. I've never left my bed at home but I'm completely comfortable ruling over this drug fueled orgy while commanding the attention of the hottest guy at the party. Oh, and I never shower and just peed my pants an hour ago. But aren't I sexy?"

Cora's almost just as ridiculous. What kind of imbecile is she? Does she have no gut feeling, no inner voice telling her to get the hell out and away from these people?  

I'm just left shaking my head.

[Shellbell59]

On 9/14/2017 at 6:47 AM, TattleTeeny said:

I have to admit, I was starting to wonder if there even is a Maddie at all--I was looking for Sixth Sense-ish clues like is anyone really talking to her, or could what they're saying be to themselves or to anyone else? 

But that could just mean that it's Cora's own DNA on the blanket; siblings' DNA is not identical.  

Also, that creepy-ass pink (pink?!) mask--was that just a random memory snippet? Because from what was shown at the end of an earlier episode, I kind of assumed it (as well as the others in that closet) would be a bigger thing than just some dude-bro running around with it on his face. 

I feel like I could buy the stab pattern thing if it's revealed that Cora had also done it in some other instance far earlier than the ones we see here, like as a small child or something (or even as a sort of an OCD counting ritual; in the first episode, I remember thinking that she seemed to display an almost OCD tendency). While I know that stuff like that does definitely happen in murderers' MOs, it seems to be rooted deeper than what's being portrayed here and also with some kind of "logical" reasoning behind it.

Siblings aren't identical DNA unless they are identical twins..however Phoebe's Mitochrondial DNA (shown in prelim DNA tests are passed from mother to her offspring...) good match Cora.

[yourmomiseasy]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:41 PM, diebartdie said:

 

Cora already plead GUILTY, she is currently awaiting sentencing, the trial ended when she stood up and said "GUILTY" (she even said that TWICE. I believe the second time, which was the one that counted, was due to seeing her evil mother in the court room). I dont even think she can mount an appeal after having plead guilty like she did. The time for an insanity defense or any other defense is well past. She murdered Frankie, we dont 100% know "why" but we know she did, she knows she did, the Court accepts that she did and that she admitted to it openly and (seemingly) free of coercion.

 

12 hours ago, Shellbell59 said:

I'm not a lawyer...(and I don't even play one on TV)..but I believe a court MUST consider personal/or/territorial jurisdiction ALONG WITH complete "subject matter jurisdiction" (all of the facts in the case..including the background leading up to the act) in order to make a FINAL judgment..which becomes final at sentencing phase. 

In this case..the court has Cora's guilty plea..which accommodates the personal jurisdiction..HOWEVER the court DOES NOT have the subject matter jurisdiction in its whole...without knowing the TRUE background and events leading up to Cora killing Frankie..the guilty plea is null...

IMO..she can still have an affirmative defense taken into consideration..since she hasn't yet been sentenced.

also...the discovery of female body...

if weird female detective didn't add charges to include the second murder...if detective AMMENDED the current charge...Cora has yet plead to that..

With State to state differences in law...I don't know if this is the case however.

 

In a previous episode Cora's lawyer said the guilty plea could be vacated if considerable new evidence was discovered.  But it was more like "this is something that is never going to happen" than "this is something you should hang all your hopes on."  It was when she was trying to talk her into taking the deal on the 2nd body.  So at least in the universe of the TV show, I guess that's how it works.

[Mojeaux]

13 hours ago, Kiki620 said:

Cora's almost just as ridiculous. What kind of imbecile is she? Does she have no gut feeling, no inner voice telling her to get the hell out and away from these people?

I believe Cora was mentally abused so badly from Phoebe’s birth that no, she wouldn’t. She is also a weak personality, has uncertain character, and is easily led. Phoebe’s the chosen one. She probably never gets in trouble, and she’s had time, internet, magazines, an enabler, and enough power over Cora to make a to-do list and be able to carry it out (and be able to get Cora to help her, e.g., “I’ll scream if you leave without me.”)

In the very first episode, Cora’s easily mown over by her MIL and her husband seems to be choosing her over Cora. A woman who has been brow-beaten into submission by an older woman (authority figure) all her life will likely sit there and take it and let the MIL be a wedge in her marriage. (A little bit of experience speaking here.)

Phoebe had been in bed milking and manipulating and planning and brow-beating Cora for years, fueled by her raging hormones. She’s been plannng a last hurrah to Florida with Cora, then realizes Cora’s trying to escape altogether (urged by JD, who does at least make her see the light).

So yes, I can see that Cora has no inner compass or just enough to make her understand there’s *something* wrong, but not what or how to escape. (A little bit of experience speaking here.)

Edited September 17, 2017 by Mojeaux

[snarts]

So we're heading into the last episode and there are a ton of things that still need to be wrapped up.  Pretty sure that the focus on Ambrose life was a complete waste of time. 

[millahnna]

On 9/14/2017 at 7:32 PM, Laurie4H said:

I assumed Phoebe looked better because they did her make up to go to the bar.  Lipstick, blush, eyeliner, and mascara can do wonders.  

 

On 9/15/2017 at 8:21 AM, Zoe said:

And they finally washed her grimy hair.

Plus the drugs (and generally being high on life because of her exciting adventure of a night compared to her normal life) would have given her a temporary skin flush.  Also, cold bath in the river or lake or whatever that was where Cora and Phoebe cleaned up after the urination incident.

[Shellbell59]

On 9/14/2017 at 1:01 PM, TattleTeeny said:

Maybe the drugs and the booze. I don't know the specific differences between molly and ecstasy, but the latter can make you flushed, as can alcohol, and all wide-eyed and shit. Plus adrenaline from substances and maybe even teenage raging hormones? Maybe even just being out and about made her look better before it all crashed and burned.

Yes to all you've mentioned...totally agree.. Molly and ecstasy similar (MDA or MDMA)... but since it is "home made" it can vary..Besides the fact that JD said "it's Molly along with other things". So who know? JD may have added a number of things..

All ingredients can cause flush, tacacardia (causing a heart attack)...as well as inabilities such as holding the bladder...

 as far as Phoebe looking better..I agree ...along with drug side effects...it's the cleaning up and applying some make up before they left..along with just getting out!  "Living like she has no tomorrow"...literally...

Then add falling in love and being stimulated sexually...

since they were all under the influence...it explains Cora behavior as well..

[Shellbell59]

On 9/14/2017 at 2:15 PM, Iguessnot said:

What I'm trying to say is that Cora is not the Bride doing the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique. The original fight was just an impulsive release of rage, not the macarena, so such a deliberate pattern, repeated three times now, looks silly.

PTSD from the original act could definitely cause her to have a "flash back"...using the same pattern...unfortunately she had the knife...hence her upcoming affirmative defense?

[Shellbell59]

On 9/14/2017 at 3:39 PM, TattleTeeny said:

I don't know what that reference is, but OK. And I'm saying that maybe it still could make sense. It probably won't and we're probably just supposed to believe it's some kind of trauma-induced muscle memory (which is as good a reason as any in a work of fiction, I suppose), but it's also possible that she has some kind of reason for such a "system."

You're right tattleteeny..IMO...

PTSD...flash backs..reenactment...etc...

Edited September 18, 2017 by Shellbell59

[grommit2]

No no no.  The writers insisted on (1) Cora dropping any pretense of protecting her little sister, and (2) making the little sister into a sex-crazed slut.  
I really wish I could control my compulsion to finish things that i started, especially when they are almost done.
Thank goodness there is only one more episode.  This show rots. 

[bilgistic]

It seems I have an unpopular opinion...I think Frankie having sex with Phoebe was...not on the level. She went along with it willingly, yes, but Frankie knew of her condition and she was drugged. Yes, so was he (did we see him take anything? I don't recall), but he was in a position far more powerful than she. He was able to start and continue the act of sex (you get my meaning...), so I question his level of impairment.

Cora said to Phoebe in front of the group at the club that the pill (whatever it was) was dangerous to take with her prescription meds, and that she could die. Legally, she was impaired and therefore couldn't consent to sex.

[slothgirl]

5 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

Cora said to Phoebe in front of the group at the club that the pill (whatever it was) was dangerous to take with her prescription meds, and that she could die. Legally, she was impaired and therefore couldn't consent to sex.

Frankie wasn't at the club so he didn't witness any of that.

[ripple596]

JD gave Frankie a pill right after he slid down the bannister & said he had an anxiety attack on the tarmac or something. I still want to know why Cora had the reaction to oral sex that she had with Mason at the beginning

[Monie]

On 9/14/2017 at 6:25 AM, eXiled said:

I had just made up my mind to stop watching this hot mess of a show when I remembered that next week is the last episode.

Man....I am sooooo glad it is almost over with!!!!!