S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[KungFuBunny]

I might be in the minority, but I'm still going with the gold was in those wagons along with the wheat and has not made it to King's Landing. They may have sent a raven to let Cersei know that they trumped High Garden and were on their way to KL.

I say this because why would so many soldiers PLUS Jaime be in the rear? The bulk of the army and it's leader would stay with what was most valuable to Cersei which was the gold.

If all that was in those wagons was wheat - Jaime and company would just retreat no need to lose your lives for grain.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

No, I think that circumstances have changed and that the NW has to change with them. If Jon is named the King of the North, the NW has to accept that his oath is now invalidated and move on. If he is the new king and decides to stop sending men or decides to empty out the Wall, there is nothing that the NW can do about it. Even institutions that have been static for centuries can be forced to change by circumstances. Look at Sam, he has clearly broken his oath of chastity and has a common law wife and child, yet he is still training to be the maester of the NW. When he returns, he will have Jon and Edd's support so he will be the first maester with a family. Ultimately, I think that NW and Wall by the time this story is done or if they exist, they will have gone through radical changes to match the new era.

But do people outside of that circle from the Wall understand and accept that?   Ironically I'm not sure Ned Stark would have.  I am disregarding the men of the Watch currently at the Wall in this consideration.  If anybody is in the position to understand and accept that Jon's oath died with him it is his former brothers.  It seems as if news of Jon Snow's death and resurrection are not particularly widespread.  I'm simply expressing curiosity that those in Westeros who don't know about Jon's death are asking no questions about his abandonment of his oath. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I took Missandei's fluffing of Dany as a set up for a time, down the road, when Dany turns on them and treats them as chattel.  Yes, they are free so long as she's winning or they do as she asks.  Take both of those factors away, and we'll see what she's made of. 

I didn't even take it that deeply. I think all this dialogue is just a short cut to Jon getting schooled on Daenerys. The more her loyal servants and ex-slaves lavish praise on her the more he comes to realize what a great ruler she is. I really think it's as simple as that.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

But do people outside of that circle from the Wall understand and accept that?   Ironically I'm not sure Ned Stark would have.  I am disregarding the men of the Watch currently at the Wall in this consideration.  If anybody is in the position to understand and accept that Jon's oath died with him it is his former brothers.  It seems as if news of Jon Snow's death and resurrection are not particularly widespread.  I'm simply expressing curiosity that those in Westeros who don't know about Jon's death are asking no questions about his abandonment of his oath. 

This is a country in political turmoil and engulfed in war. I just cannot imagine that people are spending much time thinking about Jon's oath. It is probably, "I though that he was in the NW?" Shrugs. Now after the NK is defeated and Daenerys wins the war, it could become a controversy, but when you are the king, you usually just flip off those folks or hang them, which ever works.

Edited August 7, 2017 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I thought he was from somewhere in the Riverlands and had known Catelyn and Lysa since they were all young?

Grandfather, Father from Bravos, fostered to Lord Tully, became Master of Coins, had to deal with the Iron Bank and House Lannister.

Private sigil, the Mocking Bird, Family sigil the Titan of Bravos.

Sansa sees the head of the Titan either at LF home or the Eyrie and he explains it to her.

In show Cersei brings it up, in her power is power speech I think, but she does bring it up. 

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

This is a country in political turmoil and engulfed in war. I just cannot imagine that people are spending much time thinking about Jon's oath. It is probably, "I though that he was in the NW?" Shrugs. Now after the NK is defeated and Daenerys wins the war, it could become a controversy, but when you are the king, you usual just flip off those folks or hang them, which ever works.

The only one who would care  -- the person whose responsibility it would be to punish Jon for leaving the NW would be leader of the North.  Who is .... Jon.  I think he'll give himself a pass.

To copy what I said last week, the only one to care before all hell broke loose was Ned. And Ned's dead, baby.  Ned's dead. 

[WindyNights]

26 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

With the North at war, oaths to the Night Watch become irrelevant. The lords simply don't care if Jon came back from the dead or not because they need Jon to take on the role of King of the North. Besides as king, Jon can invalidate the oaths of all the brothers in the Watch.

No, he can't. He can bribe the NW though to find some loophole. That's what Robb planned to do to get Jon out.

[Francie]

9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I didn't even take it that deeply. I think all this dialogue is just a short cut to Jon getting schooled on Daenerys. The more her loyal servants and ex-slaves lavish praise on her the more he comes to realize what a great ruler she is. I really think it's as simple as that.

I think that's exactly what you're supposed to think .... right now. 

[Conotocarious]

25 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

• I think that that's the first time since Astapor that they've really managed to thrill me with the dragons. I think it was partly because this is the first time we've seen Dany and them going up against real characters as opposed to strawman villains, and partly because (as was pointed out early in the thread) it's the first time we've actually seen the Lannister army on the receiving end of an asskicking. Either way, that moment where Drogon approaches flying over the Dothraki was spectacular.

I just rewatched it in Youtube and yes, it truly is. The music especially. 

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

The only one who would care  -- the person whose responsibility it would be to punish Jon for leaving the NW would be leader of the North.  Who is .... Jon.  I think he'll give himself a pass.

To copy what I said last week, the only one to care before all hell broke loose was Ned. And Ned's dead, baby.  Ned's dead. 

Not exactly true. When Jon tries to desert the first  mtime from the NW, he thinks he'll have to hide in shadows for the rest of his life as a wanted man despite the fact that Robb is the new Lord of Winterfell

[Tikichick]

Ned may be dead.  The seasons have changed as well.   An army virtually no one even knows of, let alone expects, is trying to make its way towards the citizenry of Westeros.    I'm guessing as it becomes as issue the fact a man of the Night's Watch -- a Lord Commander no less, has abandoned his oath might cause at least a few to question why.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, lorbeer said:

How would he know?

Little Finger's family is from Bravos, as Master of coin, and head of trade (?) for Jon Arryn he work with them and most likely traveled to the Iron Bank.

Like Mace Tyrell had to.

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Ned may be dead.  The seasons have changed as well.   An army virtually no one even knows of, let alone expects, is trying to make its way towards the citizenry of Westeros.    I'm guessing as it becomes as issue the fact a man of the Night's Watch -- a Lord Commander no less, has abandoned his oath might cause at least a few to question why.

Robb expected Jon to be able to take over his throne in the event of his death even though he was in the NW...which showed he didn't think membership in the NW was an insurmountable obstacle. I'd guess he thought the NW would come to the conclusion that since they were largely dependent on the master of WF anyway, they'd decide it was better for the NW to let Jon go, still alive, and have a King in the North on their side. Certainly the NW is totally dependent on the King in the North now, and has every incentive to say that they're all right with Jon leaving (regardless of the justification used.)

[YaddaYadda]

35 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

No, he can't. He can bribe the NW though to find some loophole. That's what Robb planned to do to get Jon out.

Yeah, but whether he can or not, Jon being KitN is the single one thing that's helping the Night's Watch right now. He is mining the dragonglass for weapons and has rallied the north, and they are preparing for the war. When the time comes, Edd and the other black brothers won't be fighting on their own.  

Jeor Mormont had zero success trying to convince anyone of what was going on. He was dismissed and no one lifted a finger to help him. I don't think things would have been different for Jon had he remained with the NW. 

I don't know if it will be like this in Winds, but Norrey and Flint are at the Wall when Jon is stabbed and they know why Jon has let the Wildlings south of the Wall. I'm assuming the word will/has already spread that the threat is real. And they might end up working it out the same way Robb wanted to by having their men man the Wall with the NW so that Jon can head to Winterfell.

Edited August 7, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Constantinople]

Just because someone is a member of the Night's Watch doesn't mean he's serving at the Wall.  Yoren spent much of his time travelling around the Seven Kingdoms picking-up recruits.

One could argue in a hyper technical way that Jon has merely resigned as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he is on assignment as King of the North.

I'm not making that argument myself, but I suppose it's a possibility since Jon apparently doesn't want people to know his risen from the dead.

[Francie]

45 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Yeah, but whether he can or not, Jon being KitN is the single one thing that's helping the Night's Watch right now. He is mining the dragonglass for weapons and has rallied the north, and they are preparing for the war. When the time comes, Edd and the other black brothers won't be fighting on their own.  

Jeor Mormont had zero success trying to convince anyone of what was going on. He was dismissed and no one lifted a finger to help him. I don't think things would have been different for Jon had he remained with the NW. 

I don't know if it will be like this in Winds, but Norrey and Flint are at the Wall when Jon is stabbed and they know why Jon has let the Wildlings south of the Wall. I'm assuming the word will/has already spread that the threat is real. And they might end up working it out the same way Robb wanted to by having their men man the Wall with the NW so that Jon can head to Winterfell.

 

29 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Just because someone is a member of the Night's Watch doesn't mean he's serving at the Wall.  Yoren spent much of his time travelling around the Seven Kingdoms picking-up recruits.

One could argue in a hyper technical way that Jon has merely resigned as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he is on assignment as King of the North.

I'm not making that argument myself, but I suppose it's a possibility since Jon apparently doesn't want people to know his risen from the dead.

Agreed. His mission right now is to mine dragon glass to fight WW and keep them north of the wall. He's single-mindedly concentrated on serving the exact interests of the NW. 

Now if were all about krackens off Iron Islands or scorpions in Dorne, people might question him. 

[hypnotoad]

Quote

She's not going to be well-received, regardless of whether she's targeting a castle and razing a city or destroying an army compiled of the very citizens she declares herself to be the protector of. 

Soldiers know and accept their duties. When I was in the Army, I fully accepted a time might come when I would have to fight and potential kill someone or be killed.

I don't get the hand wringing over the use of the dragons. Regardless of the circumstance of these men being in the Army (forced or volunteer), they are soldiers and are a war for whatever house they represent. War is hell.

Now if she was willy nilly burning up cities, then sure I can see a concern.

No way, Jaimie and Bronn survived all that - ridiculous.

And finally I have to say, no matter how many times we have seen the dragons flying around and so forth, I still find them awe inspiring. I was absolutely thrilled to see Drogon in action during the battle.

Edited August 7, 2017 by hypnotoad

[Pogojoco]

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't mean to belabor the point, but Dany's Dothraki army was clearly winning.  The dragon (I don't know which one that was) was there for a show of might and a future threat.  He could have just been used to take out the army and not the supplies - and the supplies never would make it back to Cersei.  They'd be used to feed Dany's armies, and probably Jon's armies, and the people of Westeros.  I agree with Dany attacking the Lannister army, for sure - but I just can't agree with her destroying the supplies.  So, so incredibly stupid.  Had it been an accident as collateral damage, fine, but there was the distinct show of the dragon purposely going straight down the road and targeting the wagons.  I see NO reason for that.  None.  (She didn't know they had a special dragon weapon, either, so it's not like she was just taking out all wagons as a precaution to take out it.)

Yeah, it's not specific Lannister food.

 

They all need food. Kill the people, steal the loot. The Dothraki know how to raid and take stuff. Drogon can patrol the trek back to the sea. 

 

It was dumb to burn the food.  I re-watched the scene when I saw people defending it. She does passages up and down the road specifically burning barrels and wheat, not just infantry. 

[Willowy]

Wow these threads move fast. Wanted to put this back out there because I don't think it was 'stupid' for Dany to burn the caravan.

I find it hard to believe that the grain in that caravan was the ONLY food left in Westeros. There's more where that came from, or from other sources like The Vale. Dany did the right thing by burning it, if for no other reason than to prevent Cersei from hogging it all, which she no doubt would've. Also, Sansa's grain hoarding might be influential in striking a deal between Jon and Dany, as well. Not to mention all the horsemeat prancing around.

[sweetcookieface]

I don't have much to add in terms of plot or character moments, but I wanted to share my appreciation for how beautifully shot this episode was. There were some really gorgeous scenes at Winterfell (especially in the Weirwood) and Dragonstone (the caves), but the battle scene in particular blew me away. A couple of moments that come to mind:

- After the first dragon attack, the camera cuts to Dickon taking it all in, then to a wall of dragonfire, out of which some Dothraki horsemen slowly emerge

- Bronn dodging burning men, horses, and debris, all in a cloud of black smoke, on his way to the Scorpion

- My personal favorite: After the scene (set to what sounded like a slowed down Rains of Castamere) where Jamie is helplessly watching all the carnage, the camera cuts to a gorgeous, quiet shot of Drogon flying over the water with the horizon in the background (first from the back, then from the front). One of the most beautiful shots I can remember on GoT.

[Pogojoco]

1 minute ago, Willowy said:

Wow these threads move fast. Wanted to put this back out there because I don't think it was 'stupid' for Dany to burn the caravan.

I find it hard to believe that the grain in that caravan was the ONLY food left in Westeros. There's more where that came from, or from other sources like The Vale. Dany did the right thing by burning it, if for no other reason than to prevent Cersei from hogging it all, which she no doubt would've. Also, Sansa's grain hoarding might be influential in striking a deal between Jon and Dany, as well. Not to mention all the horsemeat prancing around.

It's might not be the ONLY food left in Westeros, but I can't believe they would spend all that time in all the various storylines talking about food and the lack of it if Highgarden wasn't the source of a lot of the food required to survive the winter.  It's why Jaime went there in the first place. Food and gold. 

Also, Cersei isn't going to eat all the food herself. Get rid of her tomorrow and you are still going to have to feed people. All over. Horses need grain to eat, too. Vale, yeah, but the whole point is you can't grow anything in Winter. 

 

And judging from the Sansa talk, there isn't much food in the North either. 

[Francie]

36 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

Soldiers know and accept their duties. When I was in the Army, I fully accepted a time might come when I would have to fight and potential kill someone or be killed.

I don't get the hand wringing over the use of the dragons. Regardless of the circumstance of these men being in the Army (forced or volunteer), they are soldiers and are a war for whatever house they represent. War is hell.

Now if she was willy nilly burning up cities, then sure I can see a concern.

No way, Jaimie and Bronn survived all that - ridiculous.

And finally I have to say, no matter how many times we have seen the dragons flying around and so forth, I still find them awe inspiring. I was absolutely thrilled to see Drogon in action during the battle.

First, if you are American, you chose to join the army.  Here, the forces are conscripted by the houses and then sent to the liege lord.  That's why the show has dedicated so much time to showing us that soldiers are just men whose wives have had babies and fathers need their help with their boats. 

But, more important, the point people are making in response is that the person who the soldiers are called upon to fight her is a person who claims herself to be their ruler. And not just their ruler, but their benevolent protector.  I think that's why so many are seeing this as different than a War of the Five Kings stand off or the Lannister siege of High garden. 

What if, when Dany took Mereen, she first used her dragons to torch the citizens who are assigned to opposing her storming of the city? And then declared herself their ruler? Wouldn't she seem despotic, then? That's what's been objected to. Her hypocrisy. 

If she wants to conquer the seven kingdoms all over again, own it. Come in as a conqueror. Use the dragons and seize the land by fear.  She shouldn't give herself airs of being the "rightful" ruler then and the protector of the realm. She can't have it both ways. The second she used her dragons, she made her choice.   

Edited August 8, 2017 by Francie

[WordsWordsWords]

I loved this episode. I didn't like every decision the characters made, but every decision was completely in-character.

I spent the entire battle -- which took up almost half the run-time of the episode! -- rocking back and forth and clutching my head. All sorts of torn feelings and conflicting emotions. I loved it.

This was an outstanding episode -- and it's fascinating to see the different ways different viewers saw it. This is what happens when nuance and layers are written into scripts, directors working with them, and actors embracing and embodying them. Real people aren't all one thing or another, and neither are these characters.

[MadMouse]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

This all grows out of the show's ultraweird and still unexplained decision to mostly forget that Jon was resurrected, show no reaction to it from him or other characters, or examine what it means in any meaningful way. It's infuriating.

For what's it worth: I have a friend who works for his publisher. I wouldn't hold out hope for him ever finishing this series, but he will probably keep churning out prequels and other related stories in the universe, so maybe you can get your prose fix that way.

We both talked about this last episode, look at Sansa's reactions to both Bran and Arya new talents. And she has zero reaction to Jon it's crazy. I do think Dany will find out whenever they have sexy times. But I've been thinking after the preview if both the Brotherhood and Jon are heading towards Eastwatch, could we see Beric giving Jon the kiss of life like he did Cat in front of more people?

[peggy06]

Quote

Also, let's send Bronn to fight the white walkers.  His plot armor will let him take down the Night King. 

Ha! Too true!

[GrailKing]

35 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

And judging from the Sansa talk, there isn't much food in the North either. 

right now if we combine book and show, the Eyrie is the only untouched area, Sansa knows LF is buying up all the food in and around that area.

The question is will that be folded into the show, or are they going to show, that Sansa's foresight  about food be a game changing event.

Also Jon did have a contract with Tyco that allowed him to get food, but they didn't show this in show.

[Pogojoco]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

right now if we combine book and show, the Eyrie is the only untouched area, Sansa knows LF is buying up all the food in and around that area.

The question is will that be folded into the show, or are they going to show, that Sansa's foresight  about food be a game changing event.

Also Jon did have a contract with Tyco that allowed him to get food, but they didn't show this in show.

Yup. He did a lot more "business" as Lord Commander in the book. 

[The Kings Foot]

3 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

I might be in the minority, but I'm still going with the gold was in those wagons along with the wheat and has not made it to King's Landing. They may have sent a raven to let Cersei know that they trumped High Garden and were on their way to KL.

I say this because why would so many soldiers PLUS Jaime be in the rear? The bulk of the army and it's leader would stay with what was most valuable to Cersei which was the gold.

If all that was in those wagons was wheat - Jaime and company would just retreat no need to lose your lives for grain.

Retreating from a cavalry charge is a good way to get massacred. The only chance the foot soldiers had was to fight in formation. 

 

You're right Jamie should be with the gold but then he wouldn't have caught in the battle. It's a cheap gimmick to get him charging Dany. 

[Clawdette]

Tom Hopper looked absolutely massive in his armour.  It's a pity we hardly got to look at - eh - get to know him.

[huahaha]

3 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

I might be in the minority, but I'm still going with the gold was in those wagons along with the wheat and has not made it to King's Landing. They may have sent a raven to let Cersei know that they trumped High Garden and were on their way to KL.

No, the exact dialogue says, "All the gold's safely through the gates in King's Landing." I don't think it could be more explicit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQtGZYEvFhA&t=220s (0:18)

[TaurusRose]

13 minutes ago, Clawdette said:

Tom Hopper looked absolutely massive in his armour.  It's a pity we hardly got to look at - eh - get to know him.

His features are more chiseled and he's certainly doubled down on attractiveness since Merlin.

[theschnauzers]

15 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

His features are more chiseled and he's certainly doubled down on attractiveness since Merlin.

You should have been watching Black Sails. It seems to me TPTB darkened his hair for his GoT role.

[ihartcoffee]

5 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't mean to belabor the point, but Dany's Dothraki army was clearly winning.  The dragon (I don't know which one that was) was there for a show of might and a future threat.  He could have just been used to take out the army and not the supplies - and the supplies never would make it back to Cersei.  They'd be used to feed Dany's armies, and probably Jon's armies, and the people of Westeros.  I agree with Dany attacking the Lannister army, for sure - but I just can't agree with her destroying the supplies.  So, so incredibly stupid.  Had it been an accident as collateral damage, fine, but there was the distinct show of the dragon purposely going straight down the road and targeting the wagons.  I see NO reason for that.  None.  (She didn't know they had a special dragon weapon, either, so it's not like she was just taking out all wagons as a precaution to take out it.)

I agree it would have been best to save the food for the army. I think they just wanted to blow stuff up. The producer's that is.  

But,  she also kept it from their hands.  Hard to say...... guess time will tell. 

[RobertDeSneero]

It is standard military strategy to try to destroy your enemy's supply lines, so the wagons should be a target.  Should Dany know that those wagons contain food from the Reach?

We may be coming upon a situation where there is only enough food to get through a normal winter, but a long winter is coming.  Then, it is discovered that defeating the Night King will end the long winter and Dany must head north to save everyone.  Will doing so be more important than continuing her quest for the Iron Throne?

What kind of chemistry are people looking for between Dany and Jon?  Sexual chemistry?  The standard trope might be to depict them as an inevitable pairing, but what if the show goes in a different direction, as GRRM sometimes does?  What if we end up in a situation where Dany determines that she loves Jorah but must marry Jon to unite the realm, while Jon must get over whatever psychological hangups he might have about marrying someone who may be his aunt and having to consummate the marriage?

[ParadoxLost]

1 minute ago, ihartcoffee said:

I agree it would have been best to save the food for the army. I think they just wanted to blow stuff up. The producer's that is.  

But,  she also kept it from their hands.  Hard to say...... guess time will tell. 

I think that they wanted to put Drogon in battle on display.  Realistically, there was no other way to do that than have him roast the supplies.

I don't think they can have Dany make repeated passes flambéing the Lannister infantry.  Everyone would turn against her in that scenario.  Then there is the problem that after breaking the line, using Drogon to attack soldiers results in Dothraki casualties.

It would have been better to stop the gold than the food if they wanted to have this type of battle display, but the producers are still trying to keep things "even".  When Cersei has overwhelming victory, Dany has a dragon.  When Dany has an overwhelming victory, Cersei has the Iron Bank.

[Blonde Gator]

23 hours ago, SeanC said:

That wasn't what the dialogue indicated.

The Reach is a gigantic grocery store.  The train of wagons was not even a fraction of the food that is in the reach, and I'm not convinced all of the food that was with the Lannister army was torched.  Randyll Tarly stated as much earlier, that the back of the column was so far away that they couldn't do anything if the head of the column was attacked.

But anyway, as an indication of how much food Olenna & Highgarden had....here's a video of an earlier season where she's discussing how much food House Tyrell was providing to the Lannisters in their war against Robb Stark.  The pertinent part of the convo begins at about :50. 

[spottedreptile]

4 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think that they wanted to put Drogon in battle on display.  Realistically, there was no other way to do that than have him roast the supplies.

I don't think they can have Dany make repeated passes flambéing the Lannister infantry.  Everyone would turn against her in that scenario.  Then there is the problem that after breaking the line, using Drogon to attack soldiers results in Dothraki casualties.

It would have been better to stop the gold than the food if they wanted to have this type of battle display, but the producers are still trying to keep things "even".  When Cersei has overwhelming victory, Dany has a dragon.  When Dany has an overwhelming victory, Cersei has the Iron Bank.

Good summary, and I agree with you re the desire to show off Drogon overcoming plot logic and military tactics. It seems D&D wanted to outSmaug Smaug IMO. Which is where I miss GRRM and his guiding hand - these guys aren't writers and the "less is more" axiom is turning into "more is more." I've given up hand-waving the head-scratching conflict in this season; it will continue until the WW walk over the frozen sea and stuff gets real. 

[TarotQueen]

21 hours ago, arjumand said:

Jaime knew, and let his brains be sucked out through his dick. 

man what a way with words!

[Dev F]

18 minutes ago, spottedreptile said:

Good summary, and I agree with you re the desire to show off Drogon overcoming plot logic and military tactics. It seems D&D wanted to outSmaug Smaug IMO. Which is where I miss GRRM and his guiding hand - these guys aren't writers and the "less is more" axiom is turning into "more is more." I've given up hand-waving the head-scratching conflict in this season; it will continue until the WW walk over the frozen sea and stuff gets real. 

But it isn't just that D&D wanted to put Drogon on display in a metatextual sense. Within the story, Dany was following Jon's advice to use the dragons in battle to show people that she's capable of making the impossible a reality. Slaughtering the Lannister army with a horde of Dothraki doesn't do that; just roasting the Lannisters with dragonfire overwhelms that message with too much horror, as ParadoxLost pointed out. But "the Targaryen girl flew in on a dragon and he roasted all the spoils the Lannisters were stealing from the Reach" hits right in the sweet spot.

[ParadoxLost]

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

But it isn't just that D&D wanted to put Drogon on display in a metatextual sense. Within the story, Dany was following Jon's advice to use the dragons in battle to show people that she's capable of making the impossible a reality. Slaughtering the Lannister army with a horde of Dothraki doesn't do that; just roasting the Lannisters with dragonfire overwhelms that message with too much horror, as ParadoxLost pointed out. But "the Targaryen girl flew in on a dragon and he roasted all the spoils the Lannisters were stealing from the Reach" hits right in the sweet spot.

I think that the other thing to consider is that only the North is collecting food for the Winter.  Dany and Cersei are worried about food primarily because they have armies to feed to fight each other.  So the general populace may not react to the destruction of food stores as they might when Winter makes its way South.

I can't recall who pointed it out, but I think there is also something to Tarly's line about the lagging part of the train that he wanted to flog.  They can easily claim that they didn't destroy the majority of the supplies, just enough to have a decisive victory and take the rest.

[Neko]

Poor Meera.  She hauls Bran's broken ass across the north for years, loses her brother in the process, and only gets an icy "thank you" at the end.  I wanted to give her a hug.  That was brutal.

My heart hurt when Drogon started going down after being hit with the ballista.  Another scene that was hard to watch.  I hope Cersei isn't planning on making a dozen more of those contraptions, but of course, she will.  They know they can bring down a dragon now, and that ain't good. 

Jaime is as brave as he is stupid.  I can't with his character.  He's really pushing it, and I can't even root for him a little after all the dumbass things he's done.  It's a shame, since I really liked him during his travels with Brienne back in season three, and was invested in his redemption story.  Keeping my fingers crossed that it's still coming, and that he takes out his bitch sister in the end, before being found by Brienne and dying in her arms.  That would make it all better with me.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Sweet Summer Child

[Kathemy]

Well first of all I'm a little tired of all the "Jaime is so bloody stupid" posts.

Jaime didn't abandon his army and flee to King's Landing? Was that stupid? Maybe in a purely selfish perspective, but what is the reaction of the television crowd and the on-screen army to Joffrey doing just that at the siege of Blackwater?

Second, the charge?

Jaime doesn't consider himself an invaluable asset. To him, he's a soldier, and soldiers are expendable. More than that, he's a knight and has taken knights' vows of bravery. So he sees the dragon wounded and Dany dismounted. He hears the dragon screaming as Dany unsuccessfully tries to pull the spear out of him. How is he to know exactly how wounded Drogon is? Here he is presented with a dice roll - bad one, but a dice roll - to take out the pretender to the throne in one strike, and all it costs him is risking the life of one man.

He may be too brave for his own good but that scene doesn't show stupidity.

Second, Game of Thrones has never been the best at accuracy in battle scenes. That's why it's good that you have a two-hundred feet bloody dragon thrown into it. An undisciplined horde of light cavalry wielding short weapons charging straight at a heavily armored shield formation armed with long spears is a recipe for a bloodbath - and not for the Lannisters!!! But part of this is negated by Drogon blasting a mile-wide hole in their ranks, and the other half is somewhat negated by the scene being so bloody stunning in the first place.

[mac123x]

Another dozen pages filled with "Sansa was [fill in the blank]" comments.  She's a Westerosi Rorchach's inkblot.  One sees what one wants to see based on pre-conceived notions.

 

40 minutes ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

My heart hurt when Drogon started going down after being hit with the ballista.  Another scene that was hard to watch.  I hope Cersei isn't planning on making a dozen more of those contraptions, but of course, she will.  They know they can bring down a dragon now, and that ain't good. 

On the plus side, Dany knows about this weapon now and can devise tactics for dealing with it.  Namely, don't do a Rickon and fly right at the things:  serpentine dammit!  I honestly expected D&D to save the supermegacannon weapon to spring a surprise on Dany and kill Rhaegal and or Viserion to give Cercei another win.

 

I'm hoping Dany takes a few lessons back from this battle.  1.  Have a saddle made since lying prone on Drogon's back looks uncomfortable and rather unsafe if he maneuvers too quickly and throws her off.  2.  Find fucking riders for the other two dragons!  That ballista wouldn't work against multiple targets

[rmontro]

I'm a little concerned that they are setting up Daenerys for a fall with her insistence that Jon and the North bend the knee to her.  She's always been a ruthless enemy, but I'm afraid they may be making her a little too big for her britches.  

My personal prediction for how I think the story ends is with Jon Snow on the iron throne, probably with a dragon, and with Daenerys having been killed.  I don't base that on anything other than my gut feeling, and GRRM's statement that the ending was "bittersweet".

[Paws]

So rewatching this tonight I noticed something...when Littlefnger gives Bran the dagger, Bran asks him "do you know whose dagger this was" and then Peter tells him this story. But I think Bran was trying to say "Do you know whose dagger this was? It was somebody really important!"   but instead he let's Pete tell his own version of events. So I'm guessing that this dagger will become even more important than we've already speculated. And remember, Sam saw the dagger in one of the old books at the Citadel. It has an ancient history.

[Willowy]

All I could think about when Bran gave the dagger over to Arya is "KEEP IT, MAN!"

He's going to need it when TNK reaches out those icy fingers to grab him. Or come on, at least make sure he's got several dragonglass daggers under those furs. 

His comment that the dagger is "Wasted on a cripple." is neither true, nor accurate. If anyone needs VS or dragonglass protection, it's someone who's especially vulnerable to attack from the dead.

[Blonde Gator]

On 8/6/2017 at 11:05 PM, WatchrTina said:

It looked to me like she did about half of it but that's still very impressive, especially when you consider that she's fighting left-handed like Arya in the book and Maisie is not left-handed.

Yes, in the fight with Brienne, Arya fought left-handed, true to book Arya.  Brilliant stuff by Maisie, I agree. 

However, there was a major continuity error regarding this as well.  When Arya walked up to the (non) gate at Winterfell,  Needle was on her left hip (as if she were right-handed).  It remained on her left hip on all of the rest of the early Winterfell scenes, where you could see it on the wrong hip for a left-handed person. 

When she emerged without her shaggy, blanket-looking cloak, in crisp Stark "uniform", into the practice yard with Brienne, Needle was on her right hip, where it belonged, and the VS dagger was on her left hip.  At the very end of her last go-round with Brienne, Needle was knocked out of Arya's left hand, and she drew the VS dagger with her right hand and lunged at Brienne.   Then, Brienne came in for "the kill" and grabbed Arya's right wrist with her left hand, giant sword still in Brienne's right hand.

But Arya's so fast and knew it was coming, she immediately passed/tossed (?) the dagger to her left hand, and had it at Brienne's throat to bring the round to a a draw.

It's little dumb things like this which annoy me about the show. 

[jeansheridan]

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

The idea that the Tyrells aren't skilled at arms has no prior canonical basis.

In season three when Olenna is talking to Sansa I think mocks her own house symbol. The rose and how unimpressive it is. Plus we saw her son Mace who was deeply unimpressive.

 Loras on the show was never shown in a great light. The Hound saved him once and we never saw him fight again. I think Loras was a picture of an ideal knight and I am sure he could fight competently but show Loras was never awe inspiring. 

My impression on the show was that the women were the brains of the family and the guys followed along, especially after Renley died.

The book Tyrells are in some ways less defined. There are more of them. The eldest son is a cripple but kind according to his sister. Loras still has no great moments and is fighting for his life after being burned by oil I think.

The Tarlys are the tough ones, book and show. And if they abandoned Olenna I can see the Reach failing. 

Of course where are the troops Mace had in the city to get Margary out of prison? 

[Raachel2008]

10 hours ago, Tikichick said:

How like Bronn would it be to bring Jamie up out of that water and turn it to his advantage by offering him up to Danaerys' side?

I honestly think Bronn had a momment there, and saved Bronn because he kinda of likes Jamie.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Blonde Gator]

23 minutes ago, Paws said:

So rewatching this tonight I noticed something...when Littlefnger gives Bran the dagger, Bran asks him "do you know whose dagger this was" and then Peter tells him this story. But I think Bran was trying to say "Do you know whose dagger this was? It was somebody really important!"   but instead he let's Pete tell his own version of events. So I'm guessing that this dagger will become even more important than we've already speculated. And remember, Sam saw the dagger in one of the old books at the Citadel. It has an ancient history.

I get the impression that it was Rhagar's, (but the last "owner" was Robert Baratheon, and Joffrey stole it to give to the catspaw as payment, being the dumb little turd he was, and a Lannister without a purse.

But I also get the feeling that it perhaps originally belonged to Aegon the Conqueror. 

Aegon's sword Blackfyre has been lost along the way being passed down, so perhaps the dagger is "fated" for Jon.  The ancestral Targaryan blade Blackfyre was taken to Essos after the Dance of Dragons, by Bittersteel, onethe Blackfyres.  Bittersteel was another "Great Bastard" like BloodRaven, his half-brother), and Bittersteel started up the Golden Company of mercenaries, the very best sellsword mercenary army in Essos.  The very same one Cersei is now hoping to hire, in fact. 

Circles within circles, just like the CotF's cave drawings, in fact.

10 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

In season three when Olenna is talking to Sansa I think mocks her own house symbol. The rose and how unimpressive it is. Plus we saw her son Mace who was deeply unimpressive.

 Loras on the show was never shown in a great light. The Hound saved him once and we never saw him fight again. I think Loras was a picture of an ideal knight and I am sure he could fight competently but show Loras was never awe inspiring. 

My impression on the show was that the women were the brains of the family and the guys followed along, especially after Renley died.

The book Tyrells are in some ways less defined. There are more of them. The eldest son is a cripple but kind according to his sister. Loras still has no great moments and is fighting for his life after being burned by oil I think.

The Tarlys are the tough ones, book and show. And if they abandoned Olenna I can see the Reach failing. 

Of course where are the troops Mace had in the city to get Margary out of prison? 

I'd imagine Olenna sent the Tyrell troops back to High Garden the day after Cersei blew up the Sept.