S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[DarkRaichu]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Which is why it makes even less sense that he didn't order his men to get out Scorpion as soon as he saw Drogon flying towards them. Instead, he was dicking around with regular puny arrows. As we saw, it only takes one man to operate Scorpion, which makes Jaime seem like he's not very smart for not dispatching just ONE of his men to ready Scorpion immediately. If he had, Dany and Drogon wouldn't have been able to barbeque as many men and supplies as they did.

Yeah. Sacrificing character's intellect in favor of dramatic license.  What's new?

13 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I'm hand waving that he's procrastinating about having to face Cersei knowing the truth of how Joffrey died.

He might now have any chance if gets captured after falling down to the river/lake

[MrsR]

He did order Bronn to activate the Scorpion. Bronn told him to do it himself and Jaime pointed out he couldn't operate it with one hand.

[MrWhyt]

12 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Thanks. I watch  most of my shows while exercising, so I miss a thing or two now and then.

Ohh, I'd entirely forgotten the hints - which is probably why I thought it would be the three of them.

To Cersei, yes. But Jaime, with all of his flaws, can be a bit more practical. I didn't really think his bringing up the rear was much of a problem, as to the people, in any case, the food was more valuable than the gold.

Jaime may be a murderous, incestous shit, and a slow learner but he isn't dumb. He knows that just because the gold has reached king's landing that it is not time to hang a Mission Accomplished banner. The food is just as valuable as the gold to anyone who isn't Cersei.

[Daisy]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I also thought it was sad that Arya asked for Sir Rodrick and Maester Luwin when she arrived at Winterfell. I thought it reminded us how much the Starks had lost since we met them due to Theon's betrayal and later the Bolton's treachery.

It did. 
(though, it also made me wonder how old people get in Westeros, because Luwin was ancient when we first saw him so like by season seven he'd be Methuselah) 

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

“I really thought Dany was going to propose to Jon in the dragon glass cave.”

 Me, too.  Based on the way he was looking at her and she at him, I was certain Dany was about to say: "Take me. Take me now!" Which I shouted at the TV much to the annoyance of my husband.

Hilarious! Jon and Daenerys make me swoon. 

[paigow]

You bend nothing, Jon Snow! Stannis offered to make him a Stark...Dany offered to reinforce the North...Old Aemon never fully explained "Quid Pro Quo" [or the Valeryian equivalent]

Davos is now HGNIC - Head Grammar Nazi In Charge

[Couver]

12 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Dany doesn't control the Reach yet. This battle was outside Kings Landing. 

True but given the rapid pacing of the show this season I get the feeling she will control it soon or just in a throwaway sense. She has either captured or killed Randall who was promised Warden of the South for betraying Olenna. I'm guessing he will be forced to bend the knee or be dispatched. The Tarly forces at Highgarden likely can't withstand the Dothraki. But I'm guessing Dany will take The Reach through Tarly surrender rather than a battle. 

[taanja]

17 hours ago, Captain Stable said:

I know we all see things from different angles - which is brilliant writing - but the way I saw it (and I'm not saying this is the correct way, just how I see it, and the way I believe it until something happens to disprove this) is this:

 

Sansa meets Arya and learns she has a list of people she wants to kill. That included Joffrey. 

When Sansa and Arya were last together, Sansa and Joffrey were betrothed to each other, and best of friends.

Hell, Sansa LIED to her father, (and to her future father-in-law (King Robert)) to back Joffrey up. Sansa knows Arya knows she was lying.

 

So in her mind, maybe Arya has a grudge against Sansa too...

Then Bran confirms the existence of the list.

 

Then finally Sansa witnesses Arya taking on Brienne - the woman who would protect Sansa - and also hearing Arya remind Brienne that she's sworn to obey her (Arya) as well as Sansa.

 

That is why i think Sansa is worried. 

 

I could be wrong of course, but that's how I saw the scenes unfolding :)

Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with sibling rivalry. 

Ayra tells Sansa about her kill list -- Sansa laughs -- Oh you're just joking. Arya laughs along with her. 

Bran verifies there is indeed a kill list and Cerseai is a name on that list. Sansa asks who else is on the list and Arya admits that many on the list are dead  (and you can see Sansa go -- Hm?)

Sansa witnesses the fight/sword game between Arya and Brienne and--- the fact -- the truth--- is right in front of her and can't be laughed off.  Arya is indeed a killer. It can't be denied and to me, her look was Sansa realizing just that.

17 hours ago, Captain Stable said:

We (the audience) know that, but Sansa hasn't seen her for years, and Arya was very cold in the meeting.
"I call you Lady Stark now?" You'll also notice that Sansa went to Arya and hugged her, but Arya never returned the hug - her arms remained by her side, not around Sansa.

 

Yes,she did. Watch the scene in the crypt again. Sansa hugs her first and Ayra doesn't respond but after talking a bit -- it is Arya who initiates the second hug.

[candall]

I suppose I'm interjecting an unpopular opinion myself, but I always remember Jamie deserves credit for saving everyone in King's Landing and the whole rotten "Capital of the Seven Kingdoms."   It was a tremendous sacrifice since he could reliably expect execution.  And even though the result was "merely" that his entire life assumed the stain and ignominy of being The Kingslayer, it's a fair assumption he'd do the same again.

(Since the man is forced to live with such relentless criticism, I thought it was pretty damn rude of Cersei to unilaterally roll out public confirmation of their bed sharing, "because I'm the Queen."  NOT the sign of a sensitive lover.)

I don't have a huge problem with the twin-fucking--it's critical to the story and the characters.   I really only wonder why they didn't write Cersei as the one to stand up, stroll over and flick Bran to his death like a pesky fly--seems to be more in her wheelhouse.  If Jamie had been shocked or just complicit by keeping mum, it would have fit well into the twenty-point debate about Jamie's sense of integrity, instead of a dealbreaker.

[paigow]

Some helpful Branposition that might move the plot along...

Arya: I met Nymeria, but she refused to follow me....

Bran: Besides visions, I can control animals

Sansa: What about people?

Bran: Yes.

Arya & Sansa: WTF brother???

Bran: I knew you were going to say that...

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

So from Sansa's point of view she may be thinking "Why does Arya seem to hate me?",

I have never gotten the impression that these two sisters hate one another, they just don't get/understand each other. I think they both, from the  very beginning, saw the world from completely different view points. What they valued was different, so they never had a meeting of the minds. But they didn't and don't hate one another IMO. I think by the end of it all Littlefinger will try to pit the two sisters against one another and it will look like it has worked but the joke in the end will be on him. I think both sisters will be shown to admire each others' strengths.

On another note, I really like Jon and Danny, yep, there's was some hot chemistry there in that cave. She was looking at him in a real admiring way. All I kept thinking was damn, why did she have to be his aunt. Couldn't she at least be a cousin several times removed? Damn. Of course incest is par for the course on GOT, so it's on between Danny and Jon I guess. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Snow Fairy]

Besides Rickon, no one asked where Hodow was. Some characters just get forgotten by the people closest to them

Edited August 8, 2017 by Snow Fairy

[Keepitmoving]

1 minute ago, Snow Fairy said:

Besides Rickon, no one asked where Hodow was. Some characters just get forgotten by the people closest to them

Wouldn't it be possible that he is now a member of the Army of the Dead? Don't they kill people then raise them from the dead to join them?

[candall]

20 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Wouldn't it be possible that he is now a member of the Army of the Dead? Don't they kill people then raise them from the dead to join them?

Oh, I'm sure they won't miss a chance to stab us all in the heart with Hodor the Wight.

[taanja]

28 minutes ago, candall said:

Oh, I'm sure they won't miss a chance to stab us all in the heart with Hodor the Wight.

Yup. And Summer. 

[sadie]

I just went back and watched Season 1 Episode 1 to center myself. Seeing the Stark children before the world went to hell was heartbreaking but it did reinforce a few things I believe about this ep. As much as I love Jaime Lannister, he really is an awful guy who was doing Cersais bidding from the start. Arya and Sansa always had a rivalry (sister rivalry in a good way) so I don't think Sansa watching Arya fight this ep was one of jealousy, I think it was her realizing how they have ALL lost their innocence. I think the look on her face was sadness for that and pride that her bratty little sis not only survived but had become a warrior. 

Oh and P.S. - I forgot how stinking cute direwolf pups were. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, candall said:

 

I don't have a huge problem with the twin-fucking--it's critical to the story and the characters.   

I could never understand why the fan base gets so grossed out over the Twincest, but ships the hell out of Jon and Dany. Either way it's a blood relative having sex with a blood relative. 

Regarding the latter though, how awful is it going to be when poor Jorah finally scrapes and claws his way back to Dany only to find out she's bedding the Hot Stud of the North? 

[Fen]

It's weird how subjective chemistry is - I find Jon and Dany totally flat.  

I wonder whether Missandei might put that theory about Daenerys allowing her to leave to the test?  It felt foreboding-y.

On Jaime's failure to react immediately and effectively to the dragon threat - given his traumatic past with the Mad King - well, it's hard to predict what would happen.  Look at the Hound on the battlefield.  He was frozen for a good minute or two by the sight of all the fire.  Likewise Theon during Euron's attack.  Aside from that - this is the first time any of these people have ever seen a dragon before.  It would probably take a couple of minutes for your brain to start working again - more, to make it work in a calm way, and not just scream RUN! at you.

[DrSpaceman73]

Well I don't "ship" or whatever you call it Jon and Dany, but they are much more distant relatives than Jamie/Cersei

Cousin incest, OK, kind of gross, but believe it or not, its actually LEGAL in most states still and worldwide 10% of marriages are still between first cousins or closer.  It happens

But brother/sister incest?  No........just gross.  I know much more horrible things happen on this show, but still shouldn't overlook that fact on the whole

THEN you consider this is brother sister TWIN incest, AND the fact that Jamie raped his twin sister literally right next to the dead body of their incest produced son after he was poisoned, and Jamie loses a bit of his own sometime easy to ignore aura as the handsome kingslayer dutifully to his family. 

And I don't care if the writers or produces or whoever claims that was not rape, I don't know how else it could be perceived based on how the scene was shown

Should he get credit for stopping the "mad king" who was going to kill much of KL?  Sure, but even that is a bit easier to do when you know the people taking over are not going to do anything to you as a result. 

[Tyro49]

Jamie is not moving in the water; not twisting or struggling in any way. And, with only one hand, how could he get out of his armor by himself even if he wanted to, let alone under water and holding his breath? No, if there is any survival for Jaime someone else will have to pull him out.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

It's weird how subjective chemistry is - I find Jon and Dany totally flat.

Yeah, because I first I got nothing as well. Then my view started to change a little when they were on the cliff and she gave him permission to dig for the dragonstone.

But then when they got in that damn cave and the way she was looking at him, it was a look of like, he's something going on and it's good. Now if I can just get him to bend the knee, LOL. Funny thing is, that's part of the reason she's attracted to him, because he won't bend the knee and he has respectfully yet forcefully explained to her the reason why.

[shireenbamfatheon]

3 hours ago, candall said:

I suppose I'm interjecting an unpopular opinion myself, but I always remember Jamie deserves credit for saving everyone in King's Landing and the whole rotten "Capital of the Seven Kingdoms."   It was a tremendous sacrifice since he could reliably expect execution.  And even though the result was "merely" that his entire life assumed the stain and ignominy of being The Kingslayer, it's a fair assumption he'd do the same again.

(Since the man is forced to live with such relentless criticism, I thought it was pretty damn rude of Cersei to unilaterally roll out public confirmation of their bed sharing, "because I'm the Queen."  NOT the sign of a sensitive lover.)

 

I don't get what people want from him. Yes, Cersei is clearly messed up, but is he supposed to ally himself with the women who killed his daughter? Myrcella was an innocent child and she died in his arms, and he's just supposed to ignore that and join Dany because?? I think people overlook just how malicious most of Dany's allies are. From the Ironborn who've been raping and murdering their way through the North for no other reason than it's "their way", to Olenna who poisoned Joffrey at a wedding and then allowed Tyrion and Sansa to take the fall, and Ellaria and the Sandsnakes who murdered Myrcella and the rightful rulers of Dorne, their own family. That's not getting into the Dothraki, who have such wonderful traditions such as khals sharing their khaleesi with their bloodriders (but never their horses because animals have more value than women), or killing at least three of their own at weddings. Even Dany, from an outside POV, sounds like the Mad King incarnate with her mass crucifixions and feeding people to dragons (and that man turned out to be innocent). 

Cersei blowing up the Sept containing all the people who were out to get her seems no worse than most of the acts committed by the people on Team Dany. Maybe it's the fault of D&D for massively whitewashing her in the earlier seasons, but she's not worse than the Ironborn, Dornish and Dothraki imo. 

[Traveller519]

I know it's the armour that's weighing him down, but what I would have given to watch Jamie shake of his GD gold and steel hand and start swimming upwards 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Cousin incest, OK, kind of gross, but believe it or not, its actually LEGAL in most states still and worldwide 10% of marriages are still between first cousins or closer.  It happens

First cousins are, I believe,  your closest cousins. Not sure what would be closer, other than siblings. But yeah, it is weird that first cousin marriages are legal. 

None of the families are in the clear regarding terrible deeds. Which is what complicates alliances and the eventual (one hopes) peace.  I would have left the Starks out, but Arya and Sansa have taken very personal, very horrible, acts of revenge. I mean, I loved them, thought they were well deserved, but a non-Stark (or Stark Bannerman) might not see it in that sympathetic way (nor would I, if it were real life).

[lucindabelle]

19 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

The sound of hoofbeats, first faint, then coming closer and closer.......

The battle, while magnificent, shouldn't have lasted that long......I don't care how good your battle discipline is, after the first flambayed soldiers everyone should have just run like hell; their horses certainly should have. (Presumably the Dothraki horses had gotten used to dragons.)

I was frustrated when the guards wouldn't let Arya in; c'mon, guys, at this point???

 

Yes I called bullshit on that too.

Of COURSE the horses should have panicked but to me it is unrealistic that more soldiers, who didn't believe in dragons, stood firm.

3 hours ago, taanja said:

Yup. And Summer. 

I am sooooooo tired of the "stab in heart" "sucker punch" of this show. It's fucking PREDICTABLE.

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I could never understand why the fan base gets so grossed out over the Twincest, but ships the hell out of Jon and Dany. Either way it's a blood relative having sex with a blood relative. 

Regarding the latter though, how awful is it going to be when poor Jorah finally scrapes and claws his way back to Dany only to find out she's bedding the Hot Stud of the North? 

Jaime and Cersei grew up together.  They know they are siblings. It's much ycukier.

[scrb]

12 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Jaime and Cersei grew up together.  They know they are siblings. It's much ycukier.

Yeah that is key.  Presumably there was a time when they didn't look at each other with lust.  Then it changed.

Jon and Dany doesn't know that they're related nor do they view each other as family.  Maybe once they find out, they still won't suppress any feelings of attraction.

[Couver]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I don't get what people want from him. Yes, Cersei is clearly messed up, but is he supposed to ally himself with the women who killed his daughter? Myrcella was an innocent child and she died in his arms, and he's just supposed to ignore that and join Dany because?? I think people overlook just how malicious most of Dany's allies are. From the Ironborn who've been raping and murdering their way through the North for no other reason than it's "their way", to Olenna who poisoned Joffrey at a wedding and then allowed Tyrion and Sansa to take the fall, and Ellaria and the Sandsnakes who murdered Myrcella and the rightful rulers of Dorne, their own family. That's not getting into the Dothraki, who have such wonderful traditions such as khals sharing their khaleesi with their bloodriders (but never their horses because animals have more value than women), or killing at least three of their own at weddings. Even Dany, from an outside POV, sounds like the Mad King incarnate with her mass crucifixions and feeding people to dragons (and that man turned out to be innocent). 

Cersei blowing up the Sept containing all the people who were out to get her seems no worse than most of the acts committed by the people on Team Dany. Maybe it's the fault of D&D for massively whitewashing her in the earlier seasons, but she's not worse than the Ironborn, Dornish and Dothraki imo. 

I don't think he has to join Dany at all to be redeemed. I just think the show has never sold me on any type of redemptive arc for Jamie. When I compare him to someone like Theon who clearly suffered for his transgressions I find what has happened to Jamie lacking. What he did to Bran remains one of the most despicable things on this show and the character has never shown an ounce of remorse. He followed it up with wounding Ned like a coward, killing his cousin to save himself, and overall being complicit in Tywin and Cersei's evil plans some of which make him a massive hypocrite since he killed the Mad King for similar reasons but tries to hand wave Cersei's similar crimes. The only noble thing he did was free Tyrion and that's it. The worst thing that happened to him was that he lost a hand and his page in history is lacking (rightly so IMO. He is a disgrace of a knight). I say all this obviously with a heavy bias as I find the character utterly disgusting despite loving NCW in most everything else. At least Cersei is an entertaining villain at times and I get the sense she knows she is evil. Seeing Jamie act like he isn't is super infuriating. 

I was really really hoping Drogon would have just chomped down on him at the end of this episode. 

To get back to the point I don't think removing Cersei from power means he has to side with Dany. He could easily dispatch her the same way he did the Mad King. There are more than enough people vying for the throne that eventually someone would take it. Or he could take it or give Tyrion a pardon and let him take it. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Couver

[ToniG]

17 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Tyrion: Well this isn't nearly as much fun as I expected. "They'll all be there," she said. "You'll be amazed at what they can do," she said. Bloody fucked up Dragonstone Castle accoustics! She said "Dothraki hordes," didn't she?

HAHAHAHAHAHA! 

[Gobi]

20 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

The sound of hoofbeats, first faint, then coming closer and closer.......

The battle, while magnificent, shouldn't have lasted that long......I don't care how good your battle discipline is, after the first flambayed soldiers everyone should have just run like hell; their horses certainly should have. (Presumably the Dothraki horses had gotten used to dragons.)

 

Disciplined, veteran soldiers would know that they are at greater risk retreating/fleeing than if they stand their ground. Their best defense against the dragon is to get in close to the Dothraki so that Dany can't risk barbecuing her own soldiers.

[Gobi]

19 hours ago, riley702 said:

 

She controlled all 3 when she defeated the slaver masters in Meeren.

She wasn't worried about collateral damage then.

[SimoneS]

34 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Disciplined, veteran soldiers would know that they are at greater risk retreating/fleeing than if they stand their ground. Their best defense against the dragon is to get in close to the Dothraki so that Dany can't risk barbecuing her own soldiers.

Clearly, not all the Lannister bannerman are veterans. No army is comprised of only veterans. Most of the remaining Lannisters soldiers did stand their ground and obeyed Jaime when he called them into formation after Drogon's first attack. They simply were overwhelmed by the Dothraki. Once the Dothraki broke through their lines, they carved up the Lannister soldiers. Even Bronn who is a wily fighter and experienced swordsman had to run for his life. It never occurred to him that the Dothraki attacking him would cut his horse from under him. It was only the scorpion that saved Bronn. Even without Drogon, the Lannisters would have never stood a chance although the Dothraki would have likely taken more losses. This is why Robert Baratheon who was an experienced military tactician was scared of the Targaryens invading with the Dothraki.

Edited August 8, 2017 by SimoneS

[BitterApple]

It didn't look like many of the Lannister soldiers were on horseback, so even if they ran I imagine the Dothraki would've caught up to them pretty easily. They were dead either way. 

[Star Aristille]

I'm kind of miffed that Arya didn't at least apologize to Brienne for not trusting her back in season four's finale and running from her, since she really was there to take her home.

[Star Aristille]

2 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Even Dany, from an outside POV, sounds like the Mad King incarnate with her mass crucifixions and feeding people to dragons (and that man turned out to be innocent).

Dany's fed people to her dragons before?

[Gobi]

24 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Clearly, not all the Lannister bannerman are veterans. No army is comprised of only veterans. Most of the remaining Lannisters soldiers did stand their ground and obeyed Jaime when he called them into formation after Drogon's first attack. They simply were overwhelmed by the Dothraki. Once the Dothraki broke through their lines, they carved up the Lannister soldiers. Even Bronn who is a wily fighter and experienced swordsman had to run for his life. It never occurred to him that the Dothraki attacking him would cut his horse from under him. It was only the scorpion that saved Bronn. Even without Drogon, the Lannisters would have never stood a chance although the Dothraki would have likely taken more losses. This is why Robert Baratheon who was an experienced military tactician was scared of the Targaryens invading with the Dothraki.

Having just returned from conquering Dorne, I'd say they qualified as veterans. Certainly, the Lannister Army Is well-trained, or it wouldn't be feared. Turning your back and running in the face of the enemy is never a very good idea. The Dothraki have some serious disadvantages against the Lannisters: No armor, for example. In the equivalent time in our history, armies were well aware of the value of the square formation against cavalry. The Dothraki seem overwhelming in large part due to fiction versus reality. In a TV show, you can get horses (or at least CGI ones) to charge right into and through a solid line of shield bearing, spear holding infantry; in real life, not so much. Similarly, in a show you can have one side always manage to strike the exposed part of an armor wearing soldier; again, in real life, not so easy. My point was in reaction to people wondering why the Lannisters didn't just run away: there are some very good reasons not to.

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 6:46 PM, Couver said:

I don't think he has to join Dany at all to be redeemed. I just think the show has never sold me on any type of redemptive arc for Jamie.

In my view, Jamie has changed but he hasn't been redeemed.  In the beginning he was completely in Cersei's thrall and would commit any act no matter how heinous for her without a second thought or regret to maintain that relationship. 

His relationship with Brienne made him want to be the "honorable" knight but in no way actually broke Cersei's hold on him.  He's weak.  Now he does Cersei's bidding but he broods about it and tempers her instructions where he can but still carries them out.  And I'm still not sure that he's brooding because he regrets the harm he inflicts on others or because it doesn't allow him to be the version of a knight that he wants to be. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[ShannaB]

Two nights since the episode and I just had this thought.......why did Qyburn call the ballista Scorpion?  That sure doesn't sound good.  I hope it is only a name the mad scientist douche made up for his contraption and has no more consequences for Drogon other than his his wound!  He looks okay in the previews for next week but you never know with this show.

[Unknown poster]

49 minutes ago, ShannaB said:

Two nights since the episode and I just had this thought.......why did Qyburn call the ballista Scorpion?  That sure doesn't sound good.  I hope it is only a name the mad scientist douche made up for his contraption and has no more consequences for Drogon other than his his wound!  He looks okay in the previews for next week but you never know with this show.

That's actually so logical, I'm annoyed that it almost certainly isn't what's going to happen. They just showed us that Qyburn's quite familiar with posions, after all.

[CeeBeeGee]

The scorpion was a real weapon, used in ancient Rome and during the early middle ages.

[ShannaB]

40 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

The scorpion was a real weapon, used in ancient Rome and during the early middle ages.

Good to know.  Interesting that the showrunners used the 'Roman' name.  Still, it could have a double meaning since Qyburn is involved.  Hoping it is just a clever misdirect.

[Casually Observant]

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Is old Tarly dead? I saw a bald guy dunking himself in the water, but it could have been anybody with their hair burned off.....

I had that same question - was that Samwell's dad getting burned up or some other poor soul?

11 hours ago, MrsR said:

He did order Bronn to activate the Scorpion. Bronn told him to do it himself and Jaime pointed out he couldn't operate it with one hand.

I wondered about when Jaime told Bronn to activate the Scorpion and Bronn responded with, "You do it!"  Was Bronn reluctant to use such a thing on the magnificent dragon or did he think that Jaime should get the accolades if he killed the dragon, or was he just afraid of getting killed or incinerated on the way to the wagon with the device?  What do you guys think? But it was true that Jaime could not have done it with only one good hand.

8 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I could never understand why the fan base gets so grossed out over the Twincest, but ships the hell out of Jon and Dany. Either way it's a blood relative having sex with a blood relative. 

Regarding the latter though, how awful is it going to be when poor Jorah finally scrapes and claws his way back to Dany only to find out she's bedding the Hot Stud of the North? 

The difference in my mind is that Jaime and Cersei grew up together as siblings.  Jon and Dany have no such relationship or years growing up together.  They also do not know that they are related. They are also cousins, not aunt/nephew, nor sister/brother. So, it is not as close of a blood tie, but still a little too close.  

Edited August 9, 2017 by Casually Observant

[CatWarmer]

Random thoughts after reading both the Book Talk and No Book Talk threads and watching the episode twice (and loving it both times):

-Re interpreting Sansa's expressions - she learned how to school her face in Kings Landing when she absolutely couldn't afford to have anyone know what she was thinking. And the same at the Eyrie and with Ramsey.  So by now it's probably just an instinctive habit to keep her thoughts to herself unless with someone she absolutely both trusts and loves.  I think there's a deliberate intent with the direction for her not to give away her thoughts.

-Speaking of the Eyrie - much as Littlefinger dying by the dagger is a natural progression of thought, I can't help wanting to see him fly through the Moon Door.

-How the Dothraki got to the Blackwater Reach - in the last scene last season they were traveling on ships outfitted with below deck stalls for the horses.  I can't imagine those ships being used for any other purpose after being outfitted for horses.  Certainly Yara wouldn't have wanted them nor would they have been used to get the Unsullied to Casterly Rock. So they must have been available.  And I'm wondering if they all went to Dragonstone anyway - if everyone comes there by tender from the big ships, how would they even get the horses to shore?  Not to mention a volcanic island is not the best place to keep your herds.  So I suspect most of them were dropped off somewhere on the mainland - I'm not familiar enough with Westeros to figure out where that would be.

-Jamie and the bottomless watering hole:  "Slowly, slowly, he sank into the sea, with no life preserver, he sank into the sea." (Babes in Toyland)  But he wasn't sinking alone - the guy (presumably Bronn) who knocked him off the horse was also sinking next to him.  And before the show focused in on Jamie, it did look like the other person was moving so I assume he just kicked over to Jamie and pulled him up.

-Also I think Jamie might have been trying for suicide by dragon.

-Arya's expression at the end when looking at Littlefinger.  We know that the last time she saw Sansa was when Ned Stark was beheaded.  But not only did she later see Littlefinger with Tywin, she also saw him at that same beheading standing right below Sansa (I watched the scene again to be sure he was there.  Arya was so young!) So that final look might have been her putting two and two together in that she recognizes how much Littlefinger was involved with the Lannisters.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, Casually Observant said:

 They are also cousins, not aunt/nephew  

Jon Snow is the son of Rheagar..therefore, the Mother Of Dragons is his aunt....

Edited August 9, 2017 by paigow

[Drogo]

Just now, paigow said:

Jon Snow is the son of Rheagar...making the Mother Of Dragons his aunt....

So the dragons are his cousins.  

Jon Snow gets cooler by the day, pun intended. 

[riley702]

10 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I have never gotten the impression that these two sisters hate one another, they just don't get/understand each other. I think they both, from the  very beginning, saw the world from completely different view points. What they valued was different, so they never had a meeting of the minds. But they didn't and don't hate one another

This is how I see it, too, as it perfectly describes my older sister and I. We're very different people with very different values and priorities, but we're family. Period. I'd trust her with my life.

4 hours ago, Gobi said:

She wasn't worried about collateral damage then.

She was. She was trying to only burn one ship, to make her point, before capturing the others for her own use. 

14 minutes ago, Casually Observant said:

The difference in my mind is that Jaime and Cersei grew up together as siblings.  Jon and Dany have no such relationship or years growing up together.  They also do not know that they are related. They are also cousins, not aunt/nephew, nor sister/brother. So, it is not as close of a blood tie, but still a little too close.  

They are aunt and nephew. Daenerys' brother was his father. He's actually a cousin to the Stark children, as Ned's sister was his mother.

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, Drogo said:

So the dragons are his cousins.  

Then it is Jon who will fertilize the next generation of eggs....despite everyone being a dude...unless there is the Jurassic Park spontaneous gender flipping....

Edited August 9, 2017 by paigow

[Bec]

People are understandably annoyed at hearing “bend the knee” over and over, but I don’t think Daenerys is being unreasonable.

We know the white walkers are a real threat, but we have to remember Daenerys doesn’t know what we know. Daenerys is also not the one trying to convince Jon that everyone’s gonna die if they don’t work together. She’s willing to hear Jon out, but some cave drawings aren’t going to completely convince her. As far as she knows for now, the Night King may exist, but he can’t be that big of a threat if keeping the North an independent kingdom still appears to be a bigger priority for Jon than getting her help.

I mean, you can’t claim that “we gotta stop squabbling over territory or we’re all gonna die!” and then at the same time say “nuh-uh, you can’t have the North” Dude gotta pick one or the other. Otherwise he comes off like he’s contradicting himself.

Though I get that from Jon’s perspective, he can’t be certain bending would mean getting actual help and not getting ordered around and screwed over like what happened with all the previous southern rulers.

It’s the age-old romantic-comedy conflict based on misunderstandings! Classic will they or won’t they! It’s really going to put a damper on the romance for the both of them when they find out they’re aunt and nephew, so I think they won’t be a couple, but the relation could still make them allies - they just wouldn’t have to cement the alliance through marriage when they find out they’re already family.

[Lady S.]

8 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Should he get credit for stopping the "mad king" who was going to kill much of KL?  Sure, but even that is a bit easier to do when you know the people taking over are not going to do anything to you as a result. 

Worth pointing out that Jaime said the Mad King meant to burn the entire city, including the Red Keep with himself and Jaime inside. I don't think Jaime was wrong in his kingslaying, but taking the small risk of punishment from a new king who needed the old one killed anyway (at worst, I think he would have still had the option of escaping execution by asking to join the Night's Watch) vs. the very certain risk of getting blown up along with thousands of innocent people is more a necessity than a selfless sacrifice. The fact that most people judge him as his father's son and assume his motives for betraying the Targs were no better than Tywin's is because Jaime never felt the need to explain himself to them.

There's some hypocrisy in Jaime's continued defense of Cersei, but I think people are overlooking the differences between the Mad Queen and the Mad King from Jaime's perspective. Cersei destroyed one building/area in a Castamere-move taking out innocents to kill her enemies, while Aerys planned to destroy the entire city with the Red Keep along with the rest of it. Cersei is his kin, his twin, the love of his life and closest he has to a wife, and she does her worst when he's not around to watch. While, OTOH, he had no reason to ever be emotionally attached to Aerys and was far more powerless as a Kingsguard, forced to stand by and watch Ned's dad and others burn alive in front of him, than he's ever been as Cersei's lover/advisor. Of course he's not going to jump straight to slaying his sister, and if he leaves her alive, it seems better to rein her in where he can (like killing Olenna painlessly) and convince himself that's enough than abandon House Lannister entirely to let Cersei go wild. But he's clearly unhappy with her (trying to brush her off before she got in position for the blowjob) and I think he's lying to himself about peace after their enemies are defeated. It didn't seem to occur to him to be honest with Olenna until she pointed out he had no need to lie to an enemy about to die, and after that he agreed with her that he felt he had no choice after how far he'd already gone with Cersei. (Shades of s2 Theon telling Luwin he'd gone too far to stop what he was doing imo. Perhaps a hint that Jaime still has a chance for another turn before a good death, if nothing else.)

13 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I also thought it was sad that Arya asked for Sir Rodrick and Maester Luwin when she arrived at Winterfell. I thought it reminded us how much the Starks had lost since we met them due to Theon's betrayal and later the Bolton's treachery.

I was struck that she thought they were both still alive after the castle had been sacked/burned and occupied by two different enemy forces.

[CletusMusashi]

Dany just wants Jon to bend the knee because Varys had a wildchild spy reporting everything that happened in the last cave that Jon was in.

If Bronn rescues Jaime, he's entitled to some gold for it. In other words, Jaime should give Bronn a hand.

Both armies waiting to use their archers until everybody is crowded together is just... stupid.

Much as I like the dragons, I think some people are overestimating how likeable te dragons are. To me, they are awesome. If they were attacking me, they would quickly shift from "endangered species" to "terrifying monster." Think how scary a saltwater crocodile or great white shark is, then how scary they would be if they could fly. Now make them bigger, give them firebeath, and make them apparently quite willing to fight a prolonged battle against your entire army. Bronn fighting off a dragon is no more a case of "Bronn-hulk SMASH puny endangered species!" than it would be if he were banishing a demon. A very, very large, very, very aggressive demon. That breathes fire.

Edited August 9, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, Bec said:

People are understandably annoyed at hearing “bend the knee” over and over, but I don’t think Daenerys is being unreasonable.

 

It would probably help if Jon stopped being so freaking vague and told Dany the specifics about what happened at Hardhome and everything else they encountered beyond the wall. At this stage of the game, he's like the Westerosi version of Paul Revere yelling "the British are coming" but it carries no significance or gravitas for someone like Dany. From her perspective, it makes sense to prioritize the enemy that's right in front of her, as opposed to the one that sounds like urban legend. 

In regards to Jaime, Bronn must be one hell of a strong swimmer if he's going to dive down to the bottom of the lake and pull up a fully grown man wearing sixty pounds of armor. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by BitterApple