S08.E01: And Then There Were Five

[ReadMeLattice]

43 minutes ago, Calm81 said:

So we can watch Leah's daughter wonder where her toothbrush is and for Kailyn to say she's not talking about anything and turn off the lights and go to bed.

I'm laughing really hard because I thought the same thing! We really have to watch poor Bentley talk about why he doesn't like to poop at school and watch Leah's little girl not brush her teeth? And then watch her drive TO AND FROM school? Like...ok? Besides the weird invasion of their children's privacy, I was thinking...YOU GET PAID 300K FOR THIS?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?! Damn, what if one of them did something somewhat interesting, besides child/spousal/domestic abuse of course? Would they start getting paid millions?

I often think about the fact that this show is now totally unrelated to being a teen mom. It's just like...twenty-somethings with children, making bad to mediocre/decent life decisions. Oh, and they're sort of famous or something, so the parties they have are nicer than ours, they drive expensive cars, there are a lot of arrests and vacations, pretty much no one has a regular job, and they move a lot. Like wtf are we watching? What am I doing with my life? I teach college and I'm about to be a mom and I am passionately commenting about Kailyn's ugly photo shoots and Jenelle's moving day antics and have no shame about it at all. lolololol

Edited July 21, 2017 by Lm2162

[Blissfool]

On 7/20/2017 at 8:01 AM, lilmarysunshine said:

See....I think that is a bullshit excuse from Barbara, if that is the case. She has time and attention to lavish on Jace, to her credit. And she does not want Jace there because she knows what that home is like. (And to me wrongly puts all or most blame on David now, it seems.) Kaiser is a baby. He needs someone to step up for him. Would like to think if he was my grandchild, I would do what I could to protect him instead of trying to protect myself from hurt or disappointment regarding him. If his own grandmother will not stick her neck out, who will? 

I see your point and have wondered the same thing regarding CPS and the judicial system. They don't grant Jenelle full custody of Jace (because, well, Jenelle), yet they leave Kaiser with her full-time?

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Blissfool said:

I see your point and have wondered the same thing regarding CPS and the judicial system. They don't grant Jenelle full custody of Jace (because, well, Jenelle), yet they leave Kaiser with her full-time?

Jenelle willingly gave up custody of Jace to Barbara though, "getting him back" is the "issue"( I don't think she wants Jace back). CPS never removed Jace from Jenelle's care. 

[Blissfool]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Jenelle willingly gave up custody of Jace to Barbara though, "getting him back" is the "issue"( I don't think she wants Jace back). CPS never removed Jace from Jenelle's care. 

I realize that but Jenelle has gone to court a couple of times (hasn't she?) seeking custody, to no avail. Yet, the courts see no problem with her raising Kaiser.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think she should get Jace, but yet the same system that keeps Jace from her care sees nothing wrong with her raising the other kids?

[GreatKazu]

2 hours ago, Blissfool said:

I see your point and have wondered the same thing regarding CPS and the judicial system. They don't grant Jenelle full custody of Jace (because, well, Jenelle), yet they leave Kaiser with her full-time?

CPS has never been involved in Jenelle's case. Jace was signed over to Barb. 

 

35 minutes ago, Blissfool said:

I realize that but Jenelle has gone to court a couple of times (hasn't she?) seeking custody, to no avail. Yet, the courts see no problem with her raising Kaiser.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think she should get Jace, but yet the same system that keeps Jace from her care sees nothing wrong with her raising the other kids?

The custody matter was recently settled after two years of Jenelle putting off the hearings via her attorney. You are confusing a custody case regarding Jace with a child (Kaiser) that is not involved in the matter between Barb and Jenelle. 

The courts kept Jace with the only parent he has been with - Barb. However, the courts also granted Jenelle visitation with Jace. It has nothing to do with CPS or the courts finding Jenelle to be an exceptional parent to one child and not the other. This court matter began when Jenelle filed for custody of Jace. That case started shortly after Jenelle hooked up with Nathan. She kept putting the matter off and there were some normal court delays as well. There is no court matter regarding Kaiser other than the one Jenelle had with Nathan when they broke up. She is the primary caretaker of Kaiser with Nathan getting visitation. 

[Blissfool]

55 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

CPS has never been involved in Jenelle's case. Jace was signed over to Barb. 

 

The custody matter was recently settled after two years of Jenelle putting off the hearings via her attorney. You are confusing a custody case regarding Jace with a child (Kaiser) that is not involved in the matter between Barb and Jenelle. 

The courts kept Jace with the only parent he has been with - Barb. However, the courts also granted Jenelle visitation with Jace. It has nothing to do with CPS or the courts finding Jenelle to be an exceptional parent to one child and not the other. This court matter began when Jenelle filed for custody of Jace. That case started shortly after Jenelle hooked up with Nathan. She kept putting the matter off and there were some normal court delays as well. There is no court matter regarding Kaiser other than the one Jenelle had with Nathan when they broke up. She is the primary caretaker of Kaiser with Nathan getting visitation. 

Forgive my naivete on the judicial system and I apologize if I'm being annoying with my persistence. But, I still don't understand....

I've been watching 16 & P and TM since the very beginning. I know that Jenelle signed over custody to Barbara. The thing I don't get is: The custody agreement has never been amended in Jenelle's favor for a reason. I'm supposing that if she had become Ms. Upstanding Citizen, if she had turned her life around, if she didn't have the lengthy criminal record, then custody would have been reverted back to her. However, none of these things happened, so Jace remains with Barbara, as per the courts.  Yet, she is allowed to raise other kids; no government authority has raised an eyebrow at that?

Let me set up a hypothetical situation:      I am a pregnant crack addict. I sign my baby over to my mom as soon as the baby is born. I continue with my wild ways. A couple of years later I have another baby, but I hate my mom now so no way am I signing that baby over to her. I will keep it even though it hinders my drug lifestyle. Is nobody going to intervene? If not family members, courts? CPS? (courts, especially, since she constantly is required to appear before a judge so they are aware of her lifestyle, criminal record).

That's what i don't get. Obviously, there is video of Jenelle being a crappy mom. Is everyone going to just turn a blind eye to the help that Kaiser needs?

Edited July 22, 2017 by Blissfool

[ReadMeLattice]

3 hours ago, Blissfool said:

I see your point and have wondered the same thing regarding CPS and the judicial system. They don't grant Jenelle full custody of Jace (because, well, Jenelle), yet they leave Kaiser with her full-time?

To my understanding they are very different issues. CPS has first off never been involved. But if you sign over custody, it is far far harder to get it back from the existing parent than it would be to get a child taken away from you if you already have them. The courts are often reluctant to take a child away from the family they already have. For Jace, that is Barb. For Kaiser, that is Jenelle and a dash of Nathan. Jace is with Barb not because Jenelle is necessarily seen as wholly unfit or abusive, but because she gave him up, didn't really ever fight for him until recently, and left him with the same parent for many years of his life. Barb is now not Jace's temporary guardian, she is the only mom he's ever had. If Jenelle had fought earlier, even with her many issues, she likely would have been far more successful. My assumption would be that her apparent apathy for so many years and Barb's positive presence in Jace's life play more of a role in the court's decision than Jenelle's drug issues or legal problems. Also, to my knowledge she DID get more custody with him as of the last hearing? Not complete, Barb is still primary, but it was changed? I could be wrong about that. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Lm2162

[BitterApple]

18 minutes ago, Blissfool said:

Let me set up a hypothetical situation:      I am a pregnant crack addict. I sign my baby over to my mom as soon as the baby is born. I continue with my wild ways. A couple of years later I have another baby, but I hate my mom now so no way am I signing that baby over to her. I will keep it even though it hinders my drug lifestyle. Is nobody going to intervene? If not family members, courts? CPS?

That's what i don't get. Obviously, there is video of Jenelle being a crappy mom. Is everyone going to just turn a blind eye to the help that Kaiser needs?

I totally understand your point and it's extremely valid. The sad thing is that for as shitty of a parent as Jenelle is, there's far, far worse. CPS won't remove a child unless there's severe neglect, drug use or physical/sexual abuse. So while Kaiser's emotional needs aren't being met; he's fed, clothed and has a roof over his head. I know it's an abysmally low bar, but unfortunately Jenelle meets it. Even if Barb did report her, I don't think anything would be done. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by BitterApple

[CofCinci]

8 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Forgive my naivete on the judicial system and I apologize if I'm being annoying with my persistence. But, I still don't understand....

I've been watching 16 & P and TM since the very beginning. I know that Jenelle signed over custody to Barbara. The thing I don't get is: The custody agreement has never been amended in Jenelle's favor for a reason. I'm supposing that if she had become Ms. Upstanding Citizen, if she had turned her life around, if she didn't have the lengthy criminal record, then custody would have been reverted back to her. However, none of these things happened, so Jace remains with Barbara, as per the courts.  Yet, she is allowed to raise other kids; no government authority has raised an eyebrow at that?

Let me set up a hypothetical situation:      I am a pregnant crack addict. I sign my baby over to my mom as soon as the baby is born. I continue with my wild ways. A couple of years later I have another baby, but I hate my mom now so no way am I signing that baby over to her. I will keep it even though it hinders my drug lifestyle. Is nobody going to intervene? If not family members, courts? CPS? (courts, especially, since she constantly is required to appear before a judge so they are aware of her lifestyle, criminal record).

That's what i don't get. Obviously, there is video of Jenelle being a crappy mom. Is everyone going to just turn a blind eye to the help that Kaiser needs?

Jace and Kaiser live in different counties - sometimes states. Sadly, it is very difficult for child services to communicate outside their counties. 

[jacksgirl]

BitterApple, you are correct re Kaiser and CPS. I see it everyday in my job, kids come to school in dirty clothes, smelling of pee,  hungry, and not well rested. We love them, offer fresh clothes, feed them and try to build an educational foundation so they have a chance to be successful. Kids like Kaiser break my heart. Jace will be ok, Maryissa seems a survivor. Ensley will be loved, Kai is screwed.

Edited July 22, 2017 by jacksgirl

[ReadMeLattice]

I don't know that Ensley will be loved. She might get a bit more doting as an infant while Jenelle dresses her up and thinks of her as a tiny extension of herself. She will eventually act like a human baby and toddler, and then like a person with her own thoughts and feelings, and Jenelle won't stand for that. She *might* get more attention from her mom, but Jenelle's brand of "attention" might be even worse than neglect. I could see her being jealous of a daughter for having a father, or being jealous of David's relationship with her and trying to sabotage it. Also trying to compete with the daughter when she's older. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Lm2162

[Scarlett45]

@Lm2162 In the last hearing Jenelle was granted a firm visitation schedule and Barb had to communicate with her regarding medical and school matters Re: Jace- Barb is still his legal guardian. 

 

@Blissfool the standard is much higher to have your child taken away than it is to get them back if you've signed over custody. In the hypothetical you suggested above, so long as subsequent children are being fed/housed/clothed and their are no obvious signs of sexual/physical abuse a person would get to keep their children even though the drug lifestyle hasn't changed. That's why for many reasons family members (and Barb did this too) try to get custody when the kids are babies or get the kids placed for adoption as infants because once a person has a history of parenting THAT specific child it's harder to intervene and they are more likely to up a fight. 

[ReadMeLattice]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

@Lm2162 In the last hearing Jenelle was granted a firm visitation schedule and Barb had to communicate with her regarding medical and school matters Re: Jace- Barb is still his legal guardian. 

 

@Blissfool

Right, and this was partly because they never even had a real visitation schedule previously to my knowledge. Jenelle never bothered to fight for one.

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I don't know that Ensley will be loved. She might get a bit more doting as an infant while Jenelle dresses her up and thinks of her as a tiny extension of herself. She will eventually act like a human baby and toddler, and then like a person with her own thoughts and feelings, and Jenelle won't stand for that. She *might* get more attention from her mom, but Jenelle's brand of "attention" might be even worse than neglect. I could see her being jealous of a daughter for having a father, or being jealous of David's relationship with her and trying to sabotage it. Also trying to compete with the daughter when she's older. 

Yeah I don't know that Ensley will be loved either. She might be dressed up more, and less likely to be knocked around by UBT, but onc UBT splits (and he will) I think Ensley might end up in the same position as Kaiser. Perhaps depending on her personality she may avoid Jenelle's wrath (if she becomes a helpful caretaker of the future kids like Marissa seems to be), but "loved".... I don't know. And given the scumbag men Jenelle keeps bringing in her life I fear for both Kaiser and Ensley regarding their exposure to people that may abuse them. 

 

@Lm2162 you're right Jenelle never fought for a firm visitation schedule before. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Scarlett45

[ReadMeLattice]

Jenelle wants to ignore Kaiser entirely and sees him as a nuisance and burden. Since she's narcissistic, she could easily see a girl as 1) a mini version of her who must emulate her, and woe to her daughter if she doesn't, or 2) competition for men. She would 100% allow a daughter (or son, of course) to be sexually abused and do nothing about it if it was her current forever soulmate doing it. 

[Spiderella2]

On 7/20/2017 at 9:56 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

 

I used to also think the Janet and Co. were being unreasonable to expect Kail to remain single (especially in light of the fact that they didn't seem to hold Jo to the same standard), but I've turned around somewhat in when think about the latter form of reasoning. They had given her free housing, free food, free baby-sitting and a lot of emotional support. It was their house and Kail was basically a free-loading guest. They were looking out for the well-being of their grandson and for Kail to focus on getting on her feet and not running around with guys getting knocked up, which has become a pattern with her so maybe they sensed it then. I mean, even with such a sweet set-up you have to expect some rules. And I have to agree, dating shouldn't necessarily be on a teen mom's mind when she is basically living off the kindness of extended family via her child and has nothing really to her name. Kail didn't have to like it but she could've at least followed the rules until she moved out, instead of that over-dramatic and disrespectful sneaking around. I don't give Jo a pass either, he was an ass and frankly came off as very spoiled and sheltered, but it was his family, not hers in the end.

Kail definitely has a type. As a professional grifter/con artist, she gets the man with her "seduction" skills. She chooses men who have close, loving, and present families so she can mooch off of them. With Chris Lopez though, his mama warned him to back away from Karl and he listened. Could be another reason why he isn't on the show. 

Also, Kail cut some of his dreadlocks. I know several people with authentic locks and it's like an extension of themselves. For her to cut the locks in a fit of rage --- it's as if she cut off three fingers. He saw her crazy in that moment and he didn't want any part of it. I hope he stands his ground no matter how much money MTV offers him. I love seeing Kail squirmy and embarrassed. 

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, Spiderella2 said:

Kail definitely has a type. As a professional grifter/con artist, she gets the man with her "seduction" skills. She chooses men who have close, loving, and present families so she can mooch off of them. With Chris Lopez though, his mama warned him to back away from Karl and he listened. Could be another reason why he isn't on the show. 

Also, Kail cut some of his dreadlocks. I know several people with authentic locks and it's like an extension of themselves. For her to cut the locks in a fit of rage --- it's as if she cut off three fingers. He saw her crazy in that moment and he didn't want any part of it. I hope he stands his ground no matter how much money MTV offers him. I love seeing Kail squirmy and embarrassed. 

Kailyn is a nasty abuser. I agree with you about his locks. It took him YEARS to grow them and she just cut them off like that. Imagine if the genders were reversed and a man cut off his girlfriend's hair or shaved her head in a fit of jealousy?.

 

Of course I'm not giving Chris a pass on parenting and supporting his child but I don't blame him one wit for staying away from Kailyn. 

[jacksgirl]

Sigh, you are prob right about Ensley. I think she'll be loved when little, a girl is a novelty to Janelle, then the bloom will wear off. Makes me sad. 

[Christina87]

I can't imagine anything Kail doing passing for "seduction." I never really saw much love or spark between her and javi. Possibly it was better with Jo, when she was young and pretty, because they did seem like there was a lot of emotion between them. 

Today, I see her "seduction" as:

"javi's gone"

"cool"

"u can come have sex"

"ok"

"bring a pizza"

"ok"

"don't forget ranch"

(silence for 2 minutes)

"CHRIS! DON'T FORGET RANCH! I CANNOT EAT PIZZA WITHOUT IT!!!!!"

"lol k"

"front door's open. Just come up to my room."

"k"

[StatisticalOutlier]

18 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Like wtf are we watching? What am I doing with my life? I teach college and I'm about to be a mom and I am passionately commenting about Kailyn's ugly photo shoots and Jenelle's moving day antics and have no shame about it at all. lolololol

Well, I'm ashamed.  I justify it by saying, "But these people at PTV are really smart and funny and the show is just the catalyst," but deep down, my enjoyment from reading and writing comments on Teen Mom is not something I share with just anybody.

Edited July 22, 2017 by StatisticalOutlier
too many buts

[Booger666]

On 7/20/2017 at 5:00 PM, BitterApple said:

I can understand why the producers would want details even if Kail can't specifically say "Chris Lopez" on air. 

Perhaps the lawyers can weigh in as I would assume Kail could talk about "Chris" or "baby daddy" as much as she wants. Are there any laws that block someone from talking about someone else, as long as it's true, on TV?  I wouldn't be surprised if Kail isn't talking about him because he has threatened to block the child from being on the show or go after her for child support if she does. It's an odd situation for sure. 

[butterbody]

Well, on the up side... now that I forward past everyone but Chelsea, I can get through this shit show in just under six minutes.

[StatisticalOutlier]

I've been known to FF past Chelsea, but I just can't resist the trainwreck that is Jenelle.  Maybe because I just have to see it with my own eyes to believe it.  Plus I hate her and it makes me kind of happy to see her miserable, and even when she's outwardly not miserable, I know she's miserable inside.  I'm a terrible person.

[ReadMeLattice]

29 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I've been known to FF past Chelsea, but I just can't resist the trainwreck that is Jenelle.  Maybe because I just have to see it with my own eyes to believe it.  Plus I hate her and it makes me kind of happy to see her miserable, and even when she's outwardly not miserable, I know she's miserable inside.  I'm a terrible person.

I know. If watching this show has taught me one thing, it is that I am going to hell.

3 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I can't imagine anything Kail doing passing for "seduction." I never really saw much love or spark between her and javi. Possibly it was better with Jo, when she was young and pretty, because they did seem like there was a lot of emotion between them. 

Today, I see her "seduction" as:

"javi's gone"

"cool"

"u can come have sex"

"ok"

"bring a pizza"

"ok"

"don't forget ranch"

(silence for 2 minutes)

"CHRIS! DON'T FORGET RANCH! I CANNOT EAT PIZZA WITHOUT IT!!!!!"

"lol k"

"front door's open. Just come up to my room."

"k"

OMG THIS IS AMAZING!

For some reason this made me think of couples' therapy with Kail and Javi, when they were both asked to write something nice about the other person. Javi isn't my favorite, but he was being really sweet and genuine. I don't remember what compliment he gave her, but I think it was something about her intelligence or drive with college. SHE COULD NOT EVEN ACCEPT THE FUCKING COMPLIMENT. She yelled that he should just call her a good mom. Frankly, if I was in couples' therapy and the only compliment my husband could think to give me *in a conversation about our personal relationship* was that I was a good parent, I would be hurt and think maybe he didn't think of me in a romantic or coupley way anymore. Javi was probably trying to be respectful and think about her as a person/human being, not just as a mom (which many women get reduced to). It made me wonder how the fuck they ever got together and how the initial "romancing" happened. Did he say romantic things and she'd yell at him or just say "k whatever, when can you get a better job?" And why was he so smitten and into marrying her?! What was the attraction? I get that maybe he was a virgin before her but holy shit, you don't jump from some fun sex to marriage and parenthood unless you are really religious or something is really off.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Lm2162

[WhosThatGirl]

I totally forgot about that couples therapy moment with Kail and Javi. It's funny because I'm someone when people compliment me I don't take it well, I get nervous and stutter thank yous but Kail demands what compliments she wants! 

I never saw any affection with Kail with Jo or Javi. Granted I think even in her original episode when we met Kail and Jo they were on the verge of an end, so perhaps that is why. I think we met them at the tail end of their relationship. And yeah I think why they stayed together ul until they did, had a lot more to do with his parents and her living in his house. But I think  they were always on the cusp of a breakup.

 

And Javi I think was a matter of timing. She wanted a new father figure for Issac. I'm not sure why Javi was into her.

Edited July 22, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Well, I'm ashamed.  I justify it by saying, "But these people at PTV are really smart and funny and the show is just the catalyst," but deep down, my enjoyment from reading and writing comments on Teen Mom is not something I share with just anybody.

If it weren't for this forum, I may have stopped watching by now. The discussions are what keeps me coming back. 

 

As for Endtable, I think she may actually get it from Jenelle the WORST once all the kids are teens. She'll be seen as competition for men. 

[ReadMeLattice]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

If it weren't for this forum, I may have stopped watching by now. The discussions are what keeps me coming back. 

 

As for Endtable, I think she may actually get it from Jenelle the WORST once all the kids are teens. She'll be seen as competition for men. 

Oh god, if she's considered "hotter" than Jenelle I don't want to know what nasty things she'll say and do to her.

[Christina87]

I'm hoping that javi was just young and into it for the fame. That, I could understand. As long as he's learned his lesson, all is good.

If he really and truly thought the Hulk would be an amazing person to raise a family with, and especially if he thought she would be a seeet, subservient SAHM, he needs help. Real help! Like seriously, he needs to go talk to a therapist about why he chooses people like this and how to reverse the pattern. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Christina87

[ReadMeLattice]

18 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

I'm hoping that javi was just young and into it for the fame. That, I could understand. As long as he's learned his lesson, all is good.

If he really and truly thought the Hulk would be an amazing person to raise a family with, and especially if he thought she would be a seeet, subservient SAHM, he needs help. Real help! Like seriously, he needs to go talk to a therapist about why he chooses people like this and how to reverse the pattern. 

Seriously, I hope he's just a fame whore, otherwise he has some even bigger issues to work out.

[Mkay]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

If it weren't for this forum, I may have stopped watching by now. The discussions are what keeps me coming back. 

 

As for Endtable, I think she may actually get it from Jenelle the WORST once all the kids are teens. She'll be seen as competition for men. 

Same. I love it here. It's a nice escape and y'all keep me laughing. 

[HeySandyStrange]

36 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

If he really and truly thought the Hulk would be an amazing person to raise a family with, and especially if he thought she would be a seeet, subservient SAHM, he needs help. Real help! Like seriously, he needs to go talk to a therapist about why he chooses people like this and how to reverse the pattern. 

I think with Javi's love/attraction to Kail, there were a couple of things at play. I think he seems like a "in love with love" type person, for starters. I think he was/is a very naïve/slow to mature type person (on top of being not very bright). I think he comes from a family oriented, traditionalist background and perhaps Kail sold him a story about making a dream family happen with her and he bought it. Also, he seems like a emotionally needy, insecure person in some respects. I suspect is famewhoriness comes more from this neediness then anything, which is kind of sad. It plays back into his desperate need to make an obviously failing marriage with someone he is incompatible with work.  It makes me wonder if there is more going on under the surface then the immature but normal-ish picture Javi presents.

I've said it before, but I think if Javi grew the hell up and got a clue, he could end up with a decent family life one day. I think if he found a more stable, calmer women who wanted a healthy but traditional family life he would end up in a lot better place. I've always thought a Vee type personality and he would be a good match. Though I don't know that he necessarily wants a subservient SAHM, but probably someone who put the family over things like a career. I think Javi is more family oriented then ambitious career-wise, so that dynamic would probably work for him.

Edited July 22, 2017 by HeySandyStrange

[ReadMeLattice]

I agree. I don't HATE Javi or anything. I think he could be a kind, devoted dad and husband. I think the tell-all book thing is gross given that it's the mom of his child he's "exposing," and he needs to grow up. Really wish he wasn't doing that because I think he'll regret it sooner rather than later. I don't care about Kail's feelings much but Lincoln is going to see and probably read the book.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Lm2162

[HeySandyStrange]

37 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I agree. I don't HATE Javi or anything. I think the tell-all book thing is gross given that it's the mom of his child he's "exposing," and he needs to grow up. Really wish he wasn't doing that because I think he'll regret it sooner rather than later. I don't care about Kail's feelings much but Lincoln is going to see and probably read the book.

I agree, but look at the suspects in this situation. If there is one thing that Javi and Kail have in common, they both can be petty and let their emotions get away with them. Plus, and I say this having a few more years on Javi and a bit more self-awareness/emotional control, it must be hard to keep your mouth shut when the other person can turn public perception very easily against you. I might be sorely tempted to speak up if I'd been in his position. I also wouldn't put it past Kail to be working on her latest best-seller with large sections dedicated to talking smack about Javi and their marriage/relationship. I've been on in TM forums like the one on reddit where some people literally call Javi insane or a psycho yet hand wave Kail's abusive behaviors. So I can't totally fault him 100% for not keeping his mouth shut, though he will probably regret it down the line when it comes to Issac and Lincoln. It really makes you appreciate how much maturity and control it took for Corey and Jo, for starters, to not write tell-alls or put their business out there.

Edited July 22, 2017 by HeySandyStrange

[Mkay]

I bet he won't say much in that book.  Someone said something bad about Kail on his Instagram and he asked them not to talk that way about the mother of his child.  He doesn't seem AS angry as he was when he returned home. He will mostly definitely claim it's a tell all to sell that book, but I bet it becomes a very watered down version of what really happened. 

[ReadMeLattice]

7 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I agree, but look at the suspects in this situation. If there is one thing that Javi and Kail have in common, they both can be petty and let their emotions get away with them. Plus, and I say this having a few more years on Javi and a bit more self-awareness/emotional control, it must be hard to keep your mouth shut when the other person can turn public perception very easily against you. I might be sorely tempted to speak up if I'd been in his position. I also wouldn't put it past Kail to be working on her latest best-seller with large sections dedicated to talking smack about Javi and their marriage/relationship. I've been on in TM forums like the one on reddit where some people literally call Javi insane or a psycho yet hand wave Kail's abusive behaviors. So I can't totally fault him 100% for not keeping his mouth shut, though he will probably regret it down the line when it comes to Issac and Lincoln. It really makes you appreciate how much maturity and control it took for Corey and Jo, for starters, for not writing tell-alls or putting there business out there.

Oh, I totally agree. I hope the tell-all is just a smokescreen money-making venture and not an actual tell-all. I still think it's weird that the military is allowing the silliness to continue, but I'd be tempted to do the same thing if I was him because Kailyn is the fucking worst. The best thing would be for him to get therapy and move on, of course--take it as a lesson to be more careful about the partners you pick in the future, and not to let TV or other shallow stuff blind you--but he is definitely still emotionally immature in some ways.

[Christina]

On 7/21/2017 at 0:14 PM, GreatKazu said:

I seem to remember it being said that Smirnoff Susie signed over legal guardianship to Janet. That meant Janet was responsible for Karl and making decisions for her overall including her health. Anyone else remember that being said?

Now that you mentioned it, I remember that, too. It may not have been on the show but something online, because I remember a scene with Janet and Suzy, maybe the drivers' license scene or when she wanted the Riveras to buy an incredibly expensive crib, where Suzy was saying something asinine and Janet responded decently, but included how much Kail needed her around, and I could read the thought bubble of what she really wanted to say, and it was, "You worthless piece of trash and failure as a mother who passed your parenting responsibilities on to me and are only here because the MTV cameras are filming, shut your mouth and keep your stupid opinions to yourself before your daughter is hurt even worse!"

Speaking of Janet, I actually thought she realized Jo was acting like an ass most of the time and realized how limited Kail was when it came to relationships with other people because of her upbringing, and wanted to support her more than him. It felt like there was a major underlying issue surrounding the Jordan dating hoopla, and I think it was just another lie and manipulation she was caught up in. She was back in Jo's bed, they tell his parents they are back together, yet she has him dropping her off at the park, with Isaac, to meet up with another man. 

On top of that, there was a cut scene from the time that Jo was refusing to give her back her belongings until she paid him back the money he had loaned her for school, resulting in Suzy calling the police. Kail walked into the garage where his dad was drinking and tried to defend herself by pointing the finger toward what Jo had done wrong and what she didn't think they were acknowledging, but he refused to listen to her and said something along the lines of it not excusing her actions.

Being upset that she took Isaac on a date with a new man all the while telling the Riveras that she was back with Jo could certainly cause him to be upset, but the entire thing was coming across like they were purposely not saying something, even though both of them knew what it was. It was a very choppy conversation, and we now know that she is underhanded and sneaky. I think they put up with a lot when it came to both Jo and Kail, were fed up with both of them, and the cops being called because Jo was being an ass and Kail was playing the victim instead of acknowledging her role in the matter was just too much for them that day. It really came across to me that it was about so much more than her deciding to date when it was the only stipulation they made for her living in their home, rent free.

 

On 7/21/2017 at 0:36 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I had something snarky to say regarding black communities being the "worst offenders", but my interptation is not what you intended by the rest of your post. I don't think in 2017 many people would be ignorant enough to assume that single parent families are exclusive to the black community.

[SNIP]

I copied this quote, my electricity went off, and by the time it came back on, I'd forgotten what I was going to say, but since it's here, it did make me think of something else kind of but not directly related to the quote...

When I read the sentence about it not just being the black community, it didn't bother me because I assumed @ClassyCourtHeels was addressing the constant reports that always seem to point the finger at minorities, and it feels like every time I read something on broken homes and public assistance, it is talking about black communities. Bill Cosby was constantly espousing the need for black men to step up, and that is what the comedian was addressing when he mentioned the multiple reports of his previous sexual assaults, which took on a life of their own as a result of social media. Even the comedian was surprised since it wasn't really new information to many of us.

Reading those articles is like when those of us who were raised during the HIV/AIDS epidemic (which has now been cured for teenagers! and other STIs don't exist!- not really, but you wouldn't know it) who were constantly being bombarded with it being a gay person's disease, then got a little info that it also affected drug addicts who used needles, only to have Janet Reno give a press conference where she exclaimed that the number one classification of people who were being diagnosed was married women, primarily Caucasian, and yet it was still being touted a gay and needle user disease. 

I had several other posts quoted and have no idea why now. My brain is being an ass today, along with my electricity, because the lightning from the storm is screwing with my body's faulty electrical wiring from the MS. 

[WhosThatGirl]

Above post: Yes on how Janet was quite good to Kail. i remember when Susie was in 16 and pregnant and she and Kail came home from lunch or whatever and Kail was asking Susie when she would see her again and Susie was being noncommittal with her answers and Kail was like "will you see the baby in the hospital" or something and Susie was like "maybe? I don't know. Bye" and Kail was like to Janet "I just don't know why she's like this and can't be there for me" and Janet was like "that's why I'm here and we're here for you" indicating the other members of the family. 

And aside from that, she got free babysitting from his siblings as well when she needed it while living there. They took her in because she had no one else.

And she used them until teen mom 2 season one came on and then Susie was around and offering her a place to stay. Granted that didn't work out either but I always found it interesting that her mom came back into her life for a short time when the cameras came rolling.

[Christina]

As soon as my comment posted, about 50 additional comments show up. 

 

19 hours ago, GreatKazu said:

The custody matter was recently settled after two years of Jenelle putting off the hearings via her attorney.  

Plus the time God intervened with a hurricane!

 

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

If it weren't for this forum, I may have stopped watching by now. The discussions are what keeps me coming back. 

That's true for me, too. Although, I have stopped watching Sister Wives and only read the forum here. It is too mind-numbingly boring and they kept making two and three hour episodes. There wasn't thirty minutes of material so they padded the episodes by playing the same thing as a "Coming Up" before every commercial, even though the entire scene was only thirty seconds and by the time it appeared on the show, we had seen it five times, then recapped what we just watched right after the commercial break.

The Teen Moms, on the other hand, bring a full hours worth of trash. Except Kail, who refuses to film. Janelle could carry the hour by herself since her every waking moment is full of drama.

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I'm hoping that javi was just young and into it for the fame. That, I could understand. As long as he's learned his lesson, all is good.

If he really and truly thought the Hulk would be an amazing person to raise a family with, and especially if he thought she would be a seeet, subservient SAHM, he needs help. Real help! Like seriously, he needs to go talk to a therapist about why he chooses people like this and how to reverse the pattern. 

In my opinion, Javi was attracted to her celebrity and quite the famewhore himself. He courted the cameras and tabloids as soon as they started dating, which was before MTV decided to do her Being Kail episode and before Teen Mom OG was picked back up. 

As I sit here right now, I can't remember why I think this, but it seems like Kail was the first person Javi had a serious relationship with and the first person with whom he had sex. I suspect as soon as he said he was considering joining the Air Force, she calculated the benefits she would receive, anticipated his deployments, expected that she could cut Jo out and move with Isaac once Javi received his orders (and for some reason thought he could tell them he wanted to go to Texas and that is where he would be sent, even insisting that it was on his short list when Javi said it wasn't at first, then changed his story, probably once she gave him a good head shake), and decided to lock it down. Kail morphs herself into whatever she thinks the man she is after desires, and probably sold Javi on her plans to be a subservient wife. Then, MTV brought back the show, he didn't get deployed like she expected and she actually had to act like she loved him since his mother moved in to take care of their children and their home. The moment she had the attention of Chris, she decided she could be done with Javi.

I have never cared for him because of his famewhoreness, and hope he gets his time cut like Nathan, but it doesn't look like that will happen, especially with Kail refusing to discuss anything on film. His jealousy reminds me of an ex, and even though I think he had reason to believe she was up to something, since she was, his behavior had made me side with Kail a few times, and that is unacceptable!

Regarding poor Kai, removing a child from the custody of a biological parent requires a very high standard of proof of neglect or abuse. Once the cops visit because UBT and Jenelle overdose or beat each other senseless, CPS will get involved. At that time, Nathan will be called to pick him up, since the court has awarded him 47% of the parenting time, and hopefully, he will step up, get sober, get the treatment for his BI and PTSD he so desperately needs, and fight Jenelle when she goes through the requirements CPS and the court order before she can retain custody (hahahaha, I made a funny). Even if you do lose custody, it is only temporary until you continually fail to improve. Losing custody permanently is an even higher bar, and is made more difficult when there isn't a biological parent in the picture who is able to take the child. Some of the worst legal cases I ever had to read were the abuse and neglect ones, because you are reading the hell a child has lived through, the very minimal improvement of a parent, and the State Supreme Court saying no, the parental rights cannot be terminated so that the grandparents or long-term foster parents can adopt. It's heartbreaking, and those cases were much worse then what we see from Jenelle. 

The Jenelle/Barb custody order included a paragraph that only Jenelle and Barb could discipline Jace. There was a lot of boilerplate language in that Order, including how neither could use drugs or drink to excess in front of him, and neither could talk bad about the other in front of him, but I don't remember seeing that discipline language very often and wonder if it is boilerplate in North Carolina or specifically because Jenelle refuses to parent and makes UBT, who is an abusive asshole. Heaven forbid, if he touched Kai and left marks, she should be ordered to chose between UBT and him, and we know she would choose UBT because when she talked to an attorney about retaining custody of Jace a few years ago, that attorney told her because of their domestic violence against each other, it was either Jace or Nathan, and she chose Nathan because of Kai. She has never really wanted Jace, she just wanted to punish Barb, and she clearly doesn't want Kai, but doesn't want Nathan to have him either. 

[nikita]

9 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

It made me wonder how the fuck they ever got together and how the initial "romancing" happened. Did he say romantic things and she'd yell at him or just say "k whatever, when can you get a better job?" And why was he so smitten and into marrying her?! What was the attraction? I get that maybe he was a virgin before her but holy shit, you don't jump from some fun sex to marriage and parenthood unless you are really religious or something is really off.

Cluster B personality disordered women (narcissists, borderlines) put on an elaborate mask and show to ensnare a new target. Whatever he likes/wants, she pretends to like/want. She becomes his ideal. And then she love-bombs him. Girl of his dreams. Can't believe his crazy luck. Well, crazy is right. I can't imagine how terrifying it must be when she feels she's got him locked in and lets the mask slip for the first time. ::shivers::

Oh, she'll also stimulate any savior instincts by lying about or exaggerating her (recent) past with an abusive partner.

[TeenMomAngerMgmt]

I miss Janet (Jo's mom). She was a voice of reason and seemed like a level-headed person. My impression of that whole situation is that she and her whole family felt betrayed by Kail. They asked her to do ONE (very reasonable) THING and she not only lied about it but threw it in their faces. I feel like Jo being an asshole in earlier seasons was probably due to his frustration with putting up with Kail's shenanigans. Even then, nothing was her fault and she was always the victim. I suspect there were other issues behind the scenes that made him blow up. 

 

Regarding Kaiser and CPS, as the daughter of a life-long social worker, they would not intervene in this case. Jenelle is doing the bare minimum to bathe, clothe, and feed him. Emotional neglect is super difficult to prove in court. Nathan is Kaiser's only hope and it doesn't seem like he is ready to get his shit together and step up appropriately.

 

I think Javi was initially attracted to Kail and her situation because who doesn't want to play the hero? Kail was feeding him all that bullshit about how terrible Jo was. She was basically framing Jo as some kind of a negligent piece of shit (which he has NEVER been). Couple that with fame whoreish tendencies and BOOM! Tyler 2.0 (now with 80% more heterosexuality). 

I had more opinions on this episode, but nothing else comes to mind. Also my wife is shipping Brianna and Javi now. 

[ReadMeLattice]

29 minutes ago, nikita said:

Cluster B personality disordered women (narcissists, borderlines) put on an elaborate mask and show to ensnare a new target. Whatever he likes/wants, she pretends to like/want. She becomes his ideal. And then she love-bombs him. Girl of his dreams. Can't believe his crazy luck. Well, crazy is right. I can't imagine how terrifying it must be when she feels she's got him locked in and lets the mask slip for the first time. ::shivers::

Oh, she'll also stimulate any savior instincts by lying about or exaggerating her (recent) past with an abusive partner.

See, I'd buy this (except that NPD and BPD are a lot less similar and BPD women actually are quite likely to truly have been severely and repeatedly abused, so I don't think Kail qualifies--she's the abuser, not the victim), but she *never* seemed sweet or cute at all with Jordan, Jo, or Javi to me. Jordan was just sort of dumb, but nice; Javi was the best thus far; and Jo was a dick as a teen just like she was, so they were well matched at the time. She's gotten worse over the years but except for when we very first met Kail as a young teen, she actually pretty much always seems the same, not like some codependent seducer reenacting her various traumas through messed up men. Women with serious disorders would likely be picking men to abuse and abandon them. Instead, she's just grouchy and belligerent. Idk, except for the possibility that her bipolar diagnosis is correct, she doesn't seem all that "disordered" or mentally ill to me. Just a self-centered jerk who really likes to get her way.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Lm2162

[TeenMomAngerMgmt]

I'm not even willing to categorically call Jo a dick back in the earlier seasons. Kail was getting a good girl edit back then. It obviously didn't last, but I think the framing always put him in a bad light. 

[ReadMeLattice]

Just now, TeenMomAngerMgmt said:

I'm not even willing to categorically call Jo a dick back in the earlier seasons. Kail was getting a good girl edit back then. It obviously didn't last, but I think the framing always put him in a bad light. 

Whether or not she was edited unfairly, he still came off as a jerk to me at the time, but that's JMO. So did she. Idk, they were 16. Cheating accusations went both ways. He's gotten his act together since then but even his mom seemed to know, and tell him often, that he wasn't acting right. It doesn't mean Kailyn wasn't a jerk too or she was his "victim," it just seemed like (as someone else said) they were always on the verge of a breakup. A dramatic teen relationship between kids who had no business having a child.

[WhosThatGirl]

1 minute ago, Lm2162 said:

Whether or not she was edited unfairly, he still came off as a jerk to me at the time, but that's JMO. So did she. Idk, they were 16. Cheating accusations went both ways. He's gotten his act together since then but even his mom seemed to know, and tell him often, that he wasn't acting right. It doesn't mean Kailyn wasn't a jerk too or she was his "victim," it just seemed like (as someone else said) they were always on the verge of a breakup. A dramatic teen relationship between kids who had no business having a child.

I agree. I'm also the one who said they were breaking up when we met them. I think they stayed together longer than anticipated was because she was living there and his parents were probably hoping it would all work out in the end. They didn't want things to get complicated with the baby and her still living there.

i also agree that both of them were jerks during the time period. But yes they were kids. And an exact reason why kids shouldn't be having kids and trying to parent. And living together when you are kids with a kid.

I think also living together made them stay together so long and Jo probably felt pressure to make it work for various reasons we have all said she had no one else, and nowhere else to go. He wasn't that nice to her but he did probably feel for her.

[guilfoyleatpp]

3 hours ago, nikita said:

Cluster B personality disordered women (narcissists, borderlines) put on an elaborate mask and show to ensnare a new target. Whatever he likes/wants, she pretends to like/want. She becomes his ideal. And then she love-bombs him. Girl of his dreams. Can't believe his crazy luck. Well, crazy is right. I can't imagine how terrifying it must be when she feels she's got him locked in and lets the mask slip for the first time. ::shivers::

Oh, she'll also stimulate any savior instincts by lying about or exaggerating her (recent) past with an abusive partner.

I feel like this hits the nail on the head! The love-bombing and the savior stimulating.

Javi was just a dumb young guy, who like a lot of guys, hooks up with his first real girlfriend and doesn't realize that not every girl has these seemingly intense demands. Javi acted like a jackwad to Jo and integrated himself way more and way sooner into Isaac's emotions than he should have, but I can't even see that idiot in the current Javi. 

And bravo to Chris for seeing Kailyn's abuse and getting the fuck outta there.  If their sexes were reversed we would be applauding him and clamoring for a restraining order. I bet Kailyn got pregnant, allowed herself to lose her shit, get loud, get physical, and any doubts that Chris had were brought to the surface. I can't imagine how shocked she must have been that he didn't come back around for more. If she were capable of being humiliated, she would be humiliated, but she doesn't seem like the type. 

[Calm81]

18 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

I know. If watching this show has taught me one thing, it is that I am going to hell.

OMG THIS IS AMAZING!

For some reason this made me think of couples' therapy with Kail and Javi, when they were both asked to write something nice about the other person. Javi isn't my favorite, but he was being really sweet and genuine. I don't remember what compliment he gave her, but I think it was something about her intelligence or drive with college. SHE COULD NOT EVEN ACCEPT THE FUCKING COMPLIMENT. She yelled that he should just call her a good mom. Frankly, if I was in couples' therapy and the only compliment my husband could think to give me *in a conversation about our personal relationship* was that I was a good parent, I would be hurt and think maybe he didn't think of me in a romantic or coupley way anymore. Javi was probably trying to be respectful and think about her as a person/human being, not just as a mom (which many women get reduced to). It made me wonder how the fuck they ever got together and how the initial "romancing" happened. Did he say romantic things and she'd yell at him or just say "k whatever, when can you get a better job?" And why was he so smitten and into marrying her?! What was the attraction? I get that maybe he was a virgin before her but holy shit, you don't jump from some fun sex to marriage and parenthood unless you are really religious or something is really off.

I agree!!

If my husband said "she's a great mom!" I'd be sad. Not because he thinks that I'm a great mom but because that is something you save for Mother's Day not couples therapy. I would want something more personal.

During couples therapy I would want him to compliment me for my prior and current accomplishments. There are things in my life that I'm currently doing that take a lot of motivation and ambition. I wanna be told that drive of mine sends shivers down to little calm81 (not that little - you know what I mean). ?

I really don't see how Lincoln was conceived. Unless she did it like they do in medical procedures with an insemination kit while watching Netflix to lock those benefits. I can't see Kailyn being seductive towards Javi. Javi would lose any chance of a boner with the sourpuss she always sports while she berates him for each and every smooth move he tries on her.

I'm thinking way too much about their sex life. Stopping. For now. ?

[Calm81]

I'm not sure if this has been said already but did anyone else notice that Kailyn's segment consisted mostly of Javi? 

Kailyn had a short meeting with Jo and Javi carried the whole segment due to his willingness to talk about what's going on and his love for the cameras. I wouldn't mind watching more of Javi (he'll give us the tea) as he's better to watch than sourpuss Kailyn. I hope they increase his salary and chops Kailyn's.

That would be the sweet revenge for him. I know it's called Teen Mom but the premise of the show has been loooooong gone that we can focus on the dads a bit more if needed. I'd rather watch Gary than Amber (TMOG). Ambers salary get cut, too, so Gary can afford more spiteful chickens and goats.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Calm81
Changed "of" to an "if" due to autocorrect

[Scarlett45]

@guilfoyleatpp I think Kailyn is humiliated and embarrassed. That's why she's strutting around talking about haters etc, the people who do that are the most insecure. Chris Lopez absolutely does not want her at all- Javi did want her and that's over. Kailyn's got a lot of faults but her IQ isn't low. She now knows she's got 3kids by 3 different men, two of her kids will leave on the regular to spend time with their loving fathers and she's alone again. 

I hope she doesn't take it out on the baby, Kailyn would never neglect a child like Jenelle would, but I'm talking about when the child is older and an independent person- not just a receipent of Kailyns affections. 

[lezlers]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:16 AM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

Even with the abuse and neglect we saw this week on TV, there's really no chance CPS would take Kaiser from Jenelle or a court would do that and give Barb custody if she tried. Kaiser's physical needs are apparently being met, and dragging him or being rough with him isn't the kind of abuse CPS/the courts get involved in. I'm sure there's worse abuse/neglect than what we saw, but there would really have to be much more abuse/neglect to get the courts/CPS to take Kaiser from Jenelle. Sad truth. But CPS is so underfunded and understaffed that the abuse/neglect nearly has to kill a child before they'll get involved. And emotional abuse is practically ignored.

And yet, you hear horror stories about them getting involved in cases where an 8 year old played at the park themselves or *gasp* walked 10 minutes to that park on their own.  I'm so confused about CPS.  I get that their resources are scarce and it sounds like an AWFUL job ,but I will never understand why they get involved in some cases that are laughable (if you look on the free range kids website there is story after story after story of parents being investigated by CPS for ridiculous reasons) but others won't be touched because they don't have the resources.   It's baffling.

[StatisticalOutlier]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Javi did want her and that's over.

Is it really?  I haven't kept up on her outside the show much, but in this last episode when he was over at her house, the look on his face made me think he still wants her.  Then he kissed her on the cheek or something as he was leaving.  The combination made me think he'd take her back if she'd let him.  Maybe as others have pointed out it's just that he desperately wants a traditional family, but he needs to be careful about what he asks.

 

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

And yet, you hear horror stories about them getting involved in cases where an 8 year old played at the park themselves or *gasp* walked 10 minutes to that park on their own.  I'm so confused about CPS.  I get that their resources are scarce and it sounds like an AWFUL job ,but I will never understand why they get involved in some cases that are laughable (if you look on the free range kids website there is story after story after story of parents being investigated by CPS for ridiculous reasons) but others won't be touched because they don't have the resources.   It's baffling.

I recall an incident where there was a free range kid that caused a big stir--I don't know if CPS got involved, but some authorities did.  It turned out the kid's parents were college professors who were into teaching independence.  In that case, I would assume the complaints came from neighbors in a similar socioeconomic stratum, and that could be the reason they were acted on.