S08.E01: And Then There Were Five

[Mr. Miner]

52 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

They have yes, thankfully Kail was the only one dumb enough to get pregnant. If Chris doesn't want his name mentioned, then in fairness to Kail, there's not much she can do, but in terms of the show, it's hard to work around a pregnancy without talking about the relationship. In that sense, I can understand why the producers would want details even if Kail can't specifically say "Chris Lopez" on air. 

Would you want anyone to know that you screwed butthole faced Karl? Bitch is ugly to the core.

[SPLAIN]

10 hours ago, lilmarysunshine said:

At the very least, complain about it and draw some attention to how he is treated! Or when she was shown with both of them, give the kid some attention. It is like the kid does not even exist to her. 

Complain about it to whom exactly? The viewers? CPS? Law enforcement? Therapists? Drawing attention to it will do what exactly? Garner some sympathy from viewers? Not sure why that is necessary. It does not benefit Barb or Kaiser in any way. Jenelle draws enough attention all on her own the way she treats Kaiser and what comes of it? Hateful tweets. Does it change Kaiser's life or benefit him? No. It infuriates Jenelle even more.

As far as I can see, Barb will reap Jenelle's anger and outrage no matter what she does or doesn't do. Barb certainly doesn't need any more of what Jenelle dishes out to her especially if she were to tweet or draws attention to the neglect and abuse Kaiser is receiving. She gets bad-mouthed on camera by Jenelle anytime shit hits the fan with that girl. As we watched Jenelle cry in the parking lot, she mentioned her mother who had absolutely nothing to do with what was happening that day.

7 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

In Kail's defense (yikes!), haven't ALL the girls had relationships (even a marriage, in Jenelle's case) that were never even mentioned on this show?

Oh, that marriage was mentioned and discussed. No doubt about that.

During that period of time, Teen Mom only aired once a year, not twice like it is now. A lot of what happened in the girls' lives wasn't captured on camera. It was one reason why we chatted on the boards about being aware of the real-time information and how the show was so far behind.

Jenelle discussed her filing for divorce and the abortion. She also mentioned his name. It wasn't as if she was hiding the fact. I clearly recall her saying she didn't need to bring another baby into her life and how it wasn't fair to Jace. Here is a synopsis of the first episode of the season:

Quote

http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/01/21/jenelle-evans-gets-abortion-teen-mom-2-recap-kailyn-lowry-moves/

After much anticipation, the moms of ‘Teen Mom 2’ returned for a brand new season of drama, tears, heartbreaking decisions. Get the full recap of the Season 5 premiere, right here.

Jenelle Evans has gotten sober off of heroin, but she has developed a whole new slew of major issues: including unexpectedly getting pregnant again, and ditching two toxic relationships. She leans on her mom to help her make some hefty decisions, including getting an abortion and trying to get her life back on track.

Jenelle has just ended her relationship with Courtland Rogers, who she married “on a whim” after ending things with boyfriend Kieffer Delp. During her attempts to get sober, she moved into her mom Barbara‘s house, where her son Jace lives. Jenelle reveals she regrets marrying Courtland and is mad at herself for not thinking things through with him, but then drops a major bombshell: she is pregnant with his baby, and regrets not making Courtland use a condom. Jenelle explains that it wouldn’t be fair to Jace to have another baby when she doesn’t even have custody of him, and she doesn’t have a job or a home of her own. She tells her friend she has made up her mind to have an abortion. Jenelle is happy that her mom is so supportive of her decision, and Babs even takes her to the clinic for the abortion. Jenelle is worried about how she will feel physically and emotionally after the abortion pill, but Babs assures her she will cope since she is making the decision on her own.

 

Kail is embarrassed as hell for trying to pull a Maci, only to have it backfire.

The implication that Kail's situation is similar to someone else who dated a guy for a couple of months and then broke it off during the off-season of filming for MTV, is so far off base. Choosing not to discuss a short-term relationship is not anywhere in the same spectrum as what Kail and Leah did. Leah was living with a guy for months. Kail had her lover appear when she was filming the show. Kail is now carrying that guy's baby. How exactly can those things be overlooked? Why is it someone in a healthy dating relationship who chose to break off that relationship for whatever reasons be compared to two dummies who did more than just date a couple of guys? One moved her boyfriend in and had him around her children  while the other cheated on her spouse and then purposefully became pregnant because she was trying to keep this guy.

The criticism and judgments against Kail are well-deserved. Remove Chelsea or anyone else from the equation, it doesn't make Kail look any better.

Edited July 20, 2017 by SPLAIN

[lilmarysunshine]

24 minutes ago, SPLAIN said:

Complain about it to whom exactly? The viewers? CPS? Law enforcement? Therapists? Drawing attention to it will do what exactly? Garner some sympathy from viewers? Not sure why that is necessary. It does not benefit Barb or Kaiser in any way. Jenelle draws enough attention all on her own the way she treats Kaiser and what comes of it? Hateful tweets. Does it change Kaiser's life or benefit him? No. It infuriates Jenelle even more.

Anyone who will listen.

My whole point is nothing she does or says shows, to me, that she cares that much or is worried about it. YMMV, of course. Is it possible she tells her coworkers she worries about it and we don't see that?  Sure. But we don't see it and all I can go by is what we see on the show, in the media and on social media, like we judge the rest of them. I have a friend who is estranged from her grandchildren and though they are not in a terrible home, she very much is saddened by her lack of a relationship with them. It breaks her heart and she talks about it. Barb has had tons of time on camera to talk about Kaiser and she doesn't.

And me claiming Barb comes across as an unaffected and unsympathetic grandmother towards Kaiser for his entire life in no way takes any blame from his parents. It is entirely possible to believe they are all shitty towards him.

[BitterApple]

54 minutes ago, SPLAIN said:

Does it change Kaiser's life or benefit him? No. It infuriates Jenelle even more.

 

I was about to say, any time Jenelle gets called out on her shitty behavior she just doubles down and goes on the war path defending herself against the "haters." Jenelle is never going to admit she's wrong or accept blame or anything else that would give viewers the slightest bit of belief that maybe, with time, she could become a halfway decent parent.

[toodywoody]

It is simple, no matter what Barb does or doesn't do, she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. If she would even mention Kaiser, Jenelle would just accuse her of trying to steal him or she will invent something to make Barb look like the big bad. If Barb was to try to do something, Jenelle would flip her shit and more fighting would happen. Barb cannot win. Here she is taking care of Jace and working. She is probably tired and just can't even go there with Jenelle any longer because that is even more exhausting. Part of the distance and lack of being around Kaiser is because of both his parents. Nathan hated Barb and took on what Jenelle thought about her own mother. So for Jenelle to bitch about her mother not being there is shit because she had driven her away with her bullshit. Barb can only try so much. Every time she tries to talk to Jenelle, Jenelle loses her shit. One time she even said something about it being a nice day and Jenelle started yelling. There is a time when one just has to step back and let things be.

[SPLAIN]

Quote

Barb has had tons of time on camera to talk about Kaiser and she doesn't.

Barb doesn't get a lot of screen time. It is hardly comparable to talking to a friend IMO. I also don't see Barb bathe or brush her teeth but, I am sure she does those things.

When Barb is shown on screen it is usually in conjunction with what is happening in Jenelle's segments whether it was an argument with her, her dick of the month, arguing about custody, visitation, going to court, Barb not hearing Jenelle on the phone and then getting an earful from her. Barb is also at the mercy of MTV's editing. They are going to show the drama, not air snippets of Barb talking to the producer about Kaiser when the producer is inquiring about Jace and the situation with Jenelle. I can't think of a time when MTV has aired a scene with Barbara and no drama was going on. Just the few precious seconds of Barb playing with Jace at the closing of the episode right before the credits appear. Last season Barb was embroiled in that battle with Jenelle that seemed to take years to get resolved. We had popcorn gate. The one time Barb was shown going to Jenelle's, her daughter wasn't speaking to her. Barb asked how her pregnancy was going. Barb mentioned what a cute haircut Kaiser received only to get major attitude from Jenelle.  We got to watch the entire group go out to dinner when Barb mentions Jace not behaving and how the cab driver said something to Jace. That whole segment was taken over by Jenelle acting like the doting mother by taking Jace outside and having that one-on-one conversation with him.

I will take it that Barb discusses her fears with people she is close to and frankly, she doesn't need to discuss it on the air. Her actions prove to me what a caring person she is. Just like I don't need to hear someone say I care about you if their actions show otherwise.

[BitterApple]

I think Barb is too old and tired to take on another grandchild and has maybe distanced herself a little for fear that one day Jenelle will drop Kaiser off and never return. I've mentioned in previous posts that I have a cousin who's a drug addict. Every time my aunt swore she was done taking in her daughter's children, another one promptly showed up and she didn't have the heart to say no. She's now 57 and raising three kids under 6. By the time the youngest is 18, she'll be 74. I think to preserve her sanity,  Barb had to say enough is enough and leave Jenelle to her own devices. I'm sure she loves Kaiser and feels horribly for his situation, but there's little she can do. Jenelle is a shit parent, but probably not shitty enough that CPS would remove him from her care.

Edited July 21, 2017 by BitterApple

[SPLAIN]

12 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I think Barb is too old and tired to take on another grandchild and has maybe distanced herself a little for fear that one day Jenelle will drop Kaiser off and never return. I've mentioned in previous posts that I have a cousin who's a drug addict. Every time my aunt swore she was done taking in her daughter's children, another one promptly showed up and she didn't have the heart to say no. She's now 57 and raising three kids under 6. By the time the youngest is 18, she'll be 74. I think to preserve her sanity,  Barb had to say enough is enough and leave Jenelle to her own devices. I'm sure she loves Kaiser and feels horribly for his situation, but there's little she can do. Jenelle is a shit parent, but probably not shitty enough that CPS would remove him from her care.

ITA.

I remember you posting about that cousin of yours. Bless your aunt. I know she has her hands full and has a lot on her plate.

I know I shit all over people who enable but, damn! It is a tough spot to be in when you see your children so damaged and addicted that you can't help but feel for the kids of those addicts and that sick feeling that if you don't take them in, where will they end up. If you enable, you end up with kids in your care. If you don't enable, you get slammed like Barbara.

I just took a look at Barb's Instagram. She hardly has any photos on there. She doesn't share a lot. I wouldn't either if I was working my ass full-time and caring for two grandchildren sometimes. Remember Gabriel? I did some Googling and found many photos of her with Kaiser in her arms. Bless her heart. She doesn't need another kid to care for.

[nikita]

16 hours ago, Calm81 said:

I'm in no way shape or form defending Kails behavior but I can understand why. She grew up with an alcoholic mother that didn't provide stable shelter and we were introduced to Kail "mooching" off of Jo's family. The Riveras weren't rude to Kailyn whatsoever but Kail was STILL living under someone else's roof under good faith and had to be a good girl to stay in that home (not cheat on Jo).

Not to stick up for Kail (I can't staaaaand her abusive ass), but she was not with Jo when she started seeing Jordan. And I know I'm in the minority, but I thought the Riveras' condition that she not date while living with them was a bit much considering how *horrible* Jo was being toward her.

I find your insight into your friend's behavior very interesting, but I think for Kail it's more of just a numbness/not feeling/no empathy thing. Like it wouldn't occur to her that to face a visitor and greet them would make them feel welcome. And she was treated damn well by Jo's family, especially Janet who took Kail's side over her own son's at times.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

22 hours ago, BitterApple said:

They have yes, thankfully Kail was the only one dumb enough to get pregnant. If Chris doesn't want his name mentioned, then in fairness to Kail, there's not much she can do, but in terms of the show, it's hard to work around a pregnancy without talking about the relationship. In that sense, I can understand why the producers would want details even if Kail can't specifically say "Chris Lopez" on air. 

Especially when the show is called Teen Mom. That's what it is about. Teen MOMS. If Kail was on a dating show, fashion design show, or a show that focused on her media career (ha), I'd totally get why she wouldn't want to talk about her pregnancy and baby daddy. But Kail's claim to "fame" is from unexpected pregnancy, childbirth, child-rearing, and dealing with baby daddies. The fact that she thinks she can be on the show about being a mom and not talk about being a mom/co-parenting/raising/the creation of her third kid is so dumb. Her literal job is to have her motherhood filmed. If she doesn't like that, she can find another job. 

As for Barb taking on Kaiser...she's almost 60. I hope every time I watch this show that she makes it to near 70/long enough to see Jace graduate from high school and is well enough to care for him in the meantime. I know my mom's energy levels went down substantially and she started to have some health issues once she was 65 & older (and she took good care of herself!). I can't imagine Barb taking on a toddler at this point. It wouldn't be fair to Barb or Kaiser. Plus, as I stated upthread, there's no reasons the courts or CPS would recognize at this point for taking Kaiser away from Jenelle.

Edited July 21, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[lilmarysunshine]

Nobody has said she needs to raise Kaiser. 

[ReadMeLattice]

52 minutes ago, nikita said:

Not to stick up for Kail (I can't staaaaand her abusive ass), but she was not with Jo when she started seeing Jordan. And I know I'm in the minority, but I thought the Riveras' condition that she not date while living with them was a bit much considering how *horrible* Jo was being toward her.

I find your insight into your friend's behavior very interesting, but I think for Kail it's more of just a numbness/not feeling/no empathy thing. Like it wouldn't occur to her that to face a visitor and greet them would make them feel welcome. And she was treated damn well by Jo's family, especially Janet who took Kail's side over her own son's at times.

I honestly agree. Jo broke up with her and was a huge asshole at the time. The fact that they were letting her stay in their basement when *their son* impregnated her and her alcoholic abusive mom kicked her out was nice, but I fail to see how it meant that they could decide who she dated after, again, their son broke it off with her. He had every right to do so, but if he does, they don't own her dating life/body/personal choices that she isn't bringing into the home. She did not cheat on Jo with Jordan. Their relationship was over. 

I like Jo now, but he was a very different person at the time. Now Kail is the entitled one and a complete bitch. At the time, she was a hard worker and he was rather spoiled and demanding. Both were immature. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Lm2162

[BitterApple]

The only thing I can think of regarding the Riveras is they didn't want Kail to get distracted by dating when her main focus needed to be school, work and getting her shit together. 

[ReadMeLattice]

Just now, BitterApple said:

The only thing I can think of regarding the Riveras is they didn't want Kail to get distracted by dating when her main focus needed to be school, work and getting her shit together. 

Maybe that was part of it. I definitely remember Janet being very clear about her displeasure that it was someone other than "her son" and seeing it as a personal betrayal, though. "How can you date another guy," etc. That was the one time I really didn't agree with them. Frankly I felt it was none of their business, especially since it's not like Kailyn broke Jo's heart. He broke up with her in no uncertain terms. They were immature, obviously mismatched teens who were no longer in a relationship (and were co-parenting poorly and had already had quite a bit of relationship drama). Sort of weird to forbid her from going on dates with anyone else. 

[GreatKazu]

17 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

The only thing I can think of regarding the Riveras is they didn't want Kail to get distracted by dating when her main focus needed to be school, work and getting her shit together. 

Yes. Janet made it clear she was concerned about Kail ending up pregnant. 

There was an easy solution to the predicament for Kail - go live rent free somewhere else and see how that works for you. She could have gone to live with Smirnoff Susie. Oh, that's right. She did. She didn't follow rules there either. 

Quote

Especially when the show is called Teen Mom. That's what it is about. Teen MOMS. If Kail was on a dating show or fashion design show or a show that focused on her media career (ha), I'd totally get why she wouldn't want to talk about her pregnant and baby daddy. But Kail's claim to "fame" is from unexpected pregnancy, childbirth, child-rearing, and dealing with baby daddies. The fact that she thinks she can be on the show about being a mom and not talk about being a mom/co-parenting/raising/the creation of her third kid is so dumb. Her literal job is to have her motherhood filmed. If she doesn't like that, she can find another job. 

Word x100. 

[HeySandyStrange]

43 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Maybe that was part of it. I definitely remember Janet being very clear about her displeasure that it was someone other than "her son" and seeing it as a personal betrayal, though. "How can you date another guy," etc. That was the one time I really didn't agree with them. Frankly I felt it was none of their business, especially since it's not like Kailyn broke Jo's heart.

 

26 minutes ago, GreatKazu said:

Yes. Janet made it clear she was concerned about Kail ending up pregnant. 

There was an easy solution to the predicament for Kail - go live rent free somewhere else and see how that works for you. She could have gone to live with Smirnoff Susie. Oh, that's right. She did. She didn't follow rules there either. 

I used to also think the Janet and Co. were being unreasonable to expect Kail to remain single (especially in light of the fact that they didn't seem to hold Jo to the same standard), but I've turned around somewhat in when think about the latter form of reasoning. They had given her free housing, free food, free baby-sitting and a lot of emotional support. It was their house and Kail was basically a free-loading guest. They were looking out for the well-being of their grandson and for Kail to focus on getting on her feet and not running around with guys getting knocked up, which has become a pattern with her so maybe they sensed it then. I mean, even with such a sweet set-up you have to expect some rules. And I have to agree, dating shouldn't necessarily be on a teen mom's mind when she is basically living off the kindness of extended family via her child and has nothing really to her name. Kail didn't have to like it but she could've at least followed the rules until she moved out, instead of that over-dramatic and disrespectful sneaking around. I don't give Jo a pass either, he was an ass and frankly came off as very spoiled and sheltered, but it was his family, not hers in the end.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

 

I used to also think the Janet and Co. were being unreasonable to expect Kail to remain single (especially in light of the fact that they didn't seem to hold Jo to the same standard), but I've turned around somewhat in when think about the latter form of reasoning. They had given her free housing, free food, free baby-sitting and a lot of emotional support. It was their house and Kail was basically a free-loading guest. They were looking out for the well-being of their grandson and for Kail to focus on getting on her feet and not running around with guys getting knocked up, which has become a pattern with her so maybe they sensed it then. I mean, even with such a sweet set-up you have to expect some rules. And I have to agree, dating shouldn't necessarily be on a teen mom's mind when she is basically living off the kindness of extended family via her child and has nothing really to her name. Kail didn't have to like it but she could've at least followed the rules until she moved out, instead of that over-dramatic and disrespectful sneaking around. I don't give Jo a pass either, he was an ass and frankly came off as very spoiled and sheltered, but it was his family, not hers in the end.

I don't know, maybe it's a cultural thing, but not dating when you're living rent free in your ex (who also happens to be the father of your child) parents' home was a no brainer to me. Like DUH she wasn't allowed to date while she was living there!!

@Lm2162 IMO Janet and her husband weren't trying to condemn her to a life of celibacy, they were giving her a place to stay until she got on her feet (aka got her Teen Mom money) because things weren't working out with Jo. THEN after she got on her feet I'm sure the Rivera's probably expected her to date/marry someone else. I think the Riveras felt betrayed because they allowed Kailyn to move in to further the idea of a nuclear family with Jo- if Jo and & Kailyn didn't want to be together fine, but they weren't allowing Kailyn to live off of them to give her free time and resources to build a nuclear family with someone else!

And yes, they let her move in because she was pregnant with their grandchild and in a relationship with their son. I expected Janet didn't want her living there until the end of time (probably a few months to a year), and Janet said SPECIFICALY she did not want her getting pregnanct again under her roof and having to be responsible for her and another baby with another man. And no they didn't hold Jo to the same standard because Jo was their son- he would be able to have a home with them regardless. Kailyn was there due to her attachment to Jo and their grandson, not because they loved and valued her for herself. 

 

Again maybe its its a cultural thing, but I remember being initially surprised that Janet had to even explain this to her. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Christina]

Jo and Kail had broken up and she had moved into the basement in the show timeline, but during the argument in the kitchen about her changing her FB status to being in a relationship with Jordan, all of them, including Kail, admitted that they were back together and she had moved and was staying back in his bedroom. Jo and his parents thought they were giving the relationship another go, and if Jordan hadn't gotten on board, Kail probably would have tried to make it work. But, she was trash back then, too, and I really think she was pushing the envelope to see how far she could go, because she had serious issues with self sabotage. Maybe it was a result of her undiagnosed bipolar disorder.

There have been times where we saw Barb trying to interact with Kaiser, including the haircut comment mentioned above. She also spoke at one of the after shows or tell nothings about how Nathan wouldn't let her see him, and when she met Jenelle to exchange Jace, Jenelle wasn't allowed to take Kaiser with her. Nathan bought Jenelle's story of Barb stealing Jace hook, line and sinker, he had already lost custody of his daughter to her mom's parents and wasn't allowed to see her, and he was Kaiser's primary caretaker. I remember Barb sitting on the floor with Kaiser and trying to play with one of his toys on a day where Nathan wasn't there, I think he was in jail, and she was happy that she got to see him. Thirty seconds later, Jenelle went batshit and she just took Jace home. 

I do agree that she is practically a stranger to him, but also agree that she is in a no-win situation. David kicked her out of the hospital so she couldn't see Ensley, and she vocalized distress on one of the after shows that she wouldn't be able to have a relationship with her, either. Barb tried to get Jenelle committed on a 5150 when she was using heroin with Kieffer, and the court denied it. She tried to make David let her in the bedroom when she went to get Jace and both he and Jenelle were locked in their room while the kids played outside, except for Kaiser who was in the room with them, and David called the police on her. The moment David is out of the picture, if he doesn't kill Jenelle or Kaiser first, Jenelle will be right back in Barb's orbit wanting her help, and Barb will dive into the cesspool again. The cops at the reunion were trying to tell her that they couldn't just do something about David and no Jenelle, and Barb didn't want her to get in trouble, because she blames everything on Jenelle's man of the hour instead of acknowledging her for what she is, a sociopath with no redeeming qualities.

[DudeLeaveMeAlone]

14 hours ago, guilfoyleatpp said:

My kid is 6 and I read to him most nights. If I was being filmed for a teen parenting show and I'd already gotten a ton of heat for being lazy or a jackass in general, you bet your sweet bubby that I'd be telling him to go pick out a couple books. We would go to the library and story time and all kinds of kid appropriate things. Library story time makes me slightly crazy after the first book is over (everyone loses their attention), but I think I could fake 25 minutes for the cameras.

Also, I just read something that said Kaiser is 3.  Holy shit.  I legit thought he was 2.  Yikes.  3 and a bottle. 3 and sleeps in a crib. OMG Jenelle's neglect is completely stunting his development. I just can't with that bitch. Poor, poor Kaiser.  :(

My older son was born in February, to Kaiser's June birthday. The difference between them is astonishing. Poor sweet Kaiser. Granted, he had a sippy cup for milk (which he called a bottle), but I never let my child take a drink to bed (I care about his dental health). I just want to scoop Kaiser up, give him a great big hug and let him come have a healthy childhood at my house with a big brother who would love a play mate his age. His 9 month old brother isn't cutting it at the moment.

[ReadMeLattice]

I agree that she shouldn't have *been* dating, but yeah I guess it's a cultural thing because I have a hard time seeing her as a "moocher" or "free loader" at the time. Yes, it was Jo's family, but he impregnated someone he *knew* didn't have a support system, stable living situation, or money. They technically didn't have any responsibility towards her, but HE did, and since they were both minors I'm not sure what else was supposed to happen if he was going to fulfill any of those responsibilities. It's not like she was an adult they randomly allowed to waltz in and take free stuff...she was the less fortunate minor their minor impregnated. The Jo of back then certainly wasn't going to go to a shelter or the streets and help her every day. She wasn't their daughter but *their* minor son majorly fucked up, so I would personally feel some obligation in that situation. I personally would have a hard time being that mad that a 16-year-old who'd just given birth, had a bad breakup, and been rejected by her family for the umpteenth time sought comfort and validation from another guy through dating. Is it mature, no, but understandable? I think so.

Anyway, onward from this subject because I feel like I might be ill if I have to say anything else kind about Kail. ;) 

5 minutes ago, DudeLeaveMeAlone said:

My older son was born in February, to Kaiser's June birthday. The difference between them is astonishing. Poor sweet Kaiser. Granted, he had a sippy cup for milk (which he called a bottle), but I never let my child take a drink to bed (I care about his dental health). I just want to scoop Kaiser up, give him a great big hug and let him come have a healthy childhood at my house with a big brother who would love a play mate his age. His 9 month old brother isn't cutting it at the moment.

I will admit that I don't know a lot about child development. He seemed behind to me. And of course children are going to develop at different rates regardless. But the poor kid just gets zero stimulation :( My newborn parenting classes taught a series of simple everyday things we could do to start activating our babies' brains. Can you imagine how little stimulation newborn Kaiser got? Just thrown in a crib and screamed at or around? And that's just when cameras were on. 

[lezlers]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 5:51 AM, Spiderella2 said:

 

I'm worried about the state of the world 20/30 years from now. If all these idiots  keep having a bunch of kids, us smart people will be outnumbered very quickly. There is no way we can even catch up to their procreation rate unless we all start having unprotected sex indiscriminately and popping out babies every other year. I don't want my sons dating Endtable or any child dragged up by idiots. 

Ever see the movie Idiocracy? That was the entire premise of the movie and I'm convinced it's already happening.   I mean, look at who we elected to lead us. 

[ClassyCourtHeels]

On 7/20/2017 at 7:51 AM, Spiderella2 said:

 

I'm worried about the state of the world 20/30 years from now. If all these idiots  keep having a bunch of kids, us smart people will be outnumbered very quickly. There is no way we can even catch up to their procreation rate unless we all start having unprotected sex indiscriminately and popping out babies every other year. I don't want my sons dating Endtable or any child dragged up by idiots. 

Yeah. More and more kids are being born to single parent households. And it isn't just in the black community. Those are just the worst offenders. I think something like 70% of black kids are born to non-married parents.  Hispanics are 50% and whites are 40%. Now some of these parents may not technically be married on paper but together, but the stat is a frightening one. Without benig married there often isn't an incentive to work through problems and stay together when it comes to petty stuff (not talking about physical violence or cheating, those are legit reasons for divorce). And even if you have a single mom that actually cares about their kids education (that is the key starter for anything) they often don't have the time to dedicate because they have to work. They don;t have another parent at home to help out. 

 

That leads to ALL kinds of social problems. I would never advocate forcing people having kids together to get married, but no doubt in my mind kids born to parents not married will more than likely have more problems down the road. Stupid people are breeding are a far greater clip than folks that go to college and plan for life. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by ClassyCourtHeels

[GreatKazu]

I seem to remember it being said that Smirnoff Susie signed over legal guardianship to Janet. That meant Janet was responsible for Karl and making decisions for her overall including her health. Anyone else remember that being said?

Poor Barb. She has been cut out from her other grandchildren out of pure spite. Note, Jenelle has never said her mom does not care about Kaiser or that she never sees him. That is because it is Jenelle who controls that situation. She did not say in the parking lot how she can't leave Kaiser with her mom because she does not care about him. She specifically said she does not speak to her mom and she does NOT trust her. Then rattled off how she has no one.

Edited July 21, 2017 by GreatKazu

[teapot]

17 hours ago, toodywoody said:

She is more than that. Any time someone says something that might be rational or just plain out the right thing to do, she flips her shit. It is like this bitch cannot think of anything other than pizza, dick and bitching at someone. Why in the hell would you have a toddler around when you are moving fucking furniture? And she wasn't even watching him, she was too busy crying in the bathroom because David wasn't paying attention to her. Grow the fuck up already and take care of your fucking kid, get him out of the way before he gets hurt. Or better yet fucking leave and go have fun with your son while you boyfriend does it all. She has to make EVERYTHING harder than it has to be. 

am I crazy, or would most moms have devised an escape plan for themselves & their kids once they knew there was going to be men moving in the house?  I would have been like, "yup, we're going to McDonald's, and to the park, and to visit auntie and..."

[Christina87]

14 minutes ago, ClassyCourtHeels said:

Yeah. More and more kids are being born to single parent households. And it isn't just in the black community. Those are just the worst offenders. I think something like 70% of black kids are born to non-married parents.  Hispanics are 50% and whites are 40%. Now some of these parents may not technically be married on paper but together, but the stat is a frightening one. Without benig married there often isn't an incentive to work through problems and stay together when it comes to petty stuff (not talking about physical violence or cheating, those are legit reasons for divorce). And even if you have a single mom that actually cares about their kids education (that is the key starter for anything) they often don't have the time to dedicate because they have to work. They don;t have another parent at home to help out. 

 

That leads to ALL kinds of social problems. I would never advocate forcing people having kids together to get married, but no doubt in my mind kids born to parents not married will more than likely have more problems down the road. Stupid people are breeding are a far greater clip than folks that go to college and plan for life. 

And the fact that these people think it's unequivocally their RIGHT to pump out ten babies when they can't afford it blows my mind! I don't want to get into a political/welfare discussion as it has its place, and there are plenty of people out there who unexpectedly fall on hard times, but seriously. If you ever read comments on these issues, they're full of, "I had my first at 16, and now I'm 23 and have five kids and me and my boyfriend are gonna have another and yeah we don't have jobs but u can't f***** tell me not to have more and ur selfish if u don't have any whos gonna take care of u when ur old?"

It blows my mind that such a large segment of the population considers people who get an education and only have as many as they can afford to be "selfish" while they breed indiscriminately and mooch off everybody else! It is going to be a real problem in a couple generations, if not this one! I fully feel that if jenelle and David didn't have teen mom money, they would have brought five children into this world anyway. They're already upset they don't get welfare when they make $300K a year!!! I just really have a hard time understanding breeding indiscriminately with no money coming in. 

[GreatKazu]

Oh forgot to add. David's friends said Kaiser smelled like shit. Obviously, referring to a loaded diaper. Poor kid likely had rash by the end of the day. 

[teapot]

3 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

I agree that she shouldn't have *been* dating, but yeah I guess it's a cultural thing because I have a hard time seeing her as a "moocher" or "free loader" at the time.

if you're pregnant and you happen to be single for whatever reason, is dating really on your agenda?  that confused me about Kail, and actually about Farrah's 16 & Pregnant episode too (*especially* after we got the real Daddy Derek story...)

[Scarlett45]

28 minutes ago, ClassyCourtHeels said:

Yeah. More and more kids are being born to single parent households. And it isn't just in the black community. Those are just the worst offenders. I think something like 70% of black kids are born to non-married parents.  Hispanics are 50% and whites are 40%. Now some of these parents may not technically be married on paper but together, but the stat is a frightening one. Without benig married there often isn't an incentive to work through problems and stay together when it comes to petty stuff (not talking about physical violence or cheating, those are legit reasons for divorce). And even if you have a single mom that actually cares about their kids education (that is the key starter for anything) they often don't have the time to dedicate because they have to work. They don;t have another parent at home to help out. 

 

That leads to ALL kinds of social problems. I would never advocate forcing people having kids together to get married, but no doubt in my mind kids born to parents not married will more than likely have more problems down the road. Stupid people are breeding are a far greater clip than folks that go to college and plan for life. 

I had something snarky to say regarding black communities being the "worst offenders", but my interptation is not what you intended by the rest of your post. I don't think in 2017 many people would be ignorant enough to assume that single parent families are exclusive to the black community.

One thing I can say I do like about the TM franchise is that the dysfunction of addiction, mental illness, criminal history is not something that only hurts minority communities. Most of these girls are WHITE and save for Kailyn and Catelynn, came from at least working class homes with disposable income and at least one involved parent. 

The two girls that are doing the best parenting wise are probably Chelsea and Maci, and the best financially are Farrah and Chelsea....no coincidence given the type of family support they had. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Scarlett45

[teapot]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

Ever see the movie Idiocracy? That was the entire premise of the movie and I'm convinced it's already happening.   I mean, look at who we elected to lead us. 

Time Masheen!  HA!!!

[ReadMeLattice]

7 minutes ago, teapot said:

if you're pregnant and you happen to be single for whatever reason, is dating really on your agenda?  that confused me about Kail, and actually about Farrah's 16 & Pregnant episode too (*especially* after we got the real Daddy Derek story...)

This was after the baby was born for Kail. But omg, I think Farrah did date while pregnant...yes? As a hugely pregnant person I can say that I barely want my own husband to touch me right now, lol. Everything hurts. And for the record, if my husband told me to go to a hotel room and sit around and watch TV while he moved stuff I'd be out that damn door so fast, lol!!! I definitely wouldn't beg him to let me stay in our mold ridden home.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Lm2162

[teapot]

7 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

And the fact that these people think it's unequivocally their RIGHT to pump out ten babies when they can't afford it blows my mind! I don't want to get into a political/welfare discussion as it has its place, and there are plenty of people out there who unexpectedly fall on hard times, but seriously. If you ever read comments on these issues, they're full of, "I had my first at 16, and now I'm 23 and have five kids and me and my boyfriend are gonna have another and yeah we don't have jobs but u can't f***** tell me not to have more and ur selfish if u don't have any whos gonna take care of u when your old?"

 

fixed that for you.

[Christina87]

@teapot omg yes!!! Such a huge pet peeve. I'm pretty sure 50% of our population needs a refresher course on your/you're. 

[teapot]

4 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

@teapot omg yes!!! Such a huge pet peeve. I'm pretty sure 50% of our population needs a refresher course on your/you're. 

makes.  my.  eyes.  bleed.

[HeySandyStrange]

1 hour ago, ClassyCourtHeels said:

Yeah. More and more kids are being born to single parent households. And it isn't just in the black community. Those are just the worst offenders. I think something like 70% of black kids are born to non-married parents.  Hispanics are 50% and whites are 40%. Now some of these parents may not technically be married on paper but together, but the stat is a frightening one. Without benig married there often isn't an incentive to work through problems and stay together when it comes to petty stuff (not talking about physical violence or cheating, those are legit reasons for divorce). And even if you have a single mom that actually cares about their kids education (that is the key starter for anything) they often don't have the time to dedicate because they have to work. They don;t have another parent at home to help out. 

 

That leads to ALL kinds of social problems. I would never advocate forcing people having kids together to get married, but no doubt in my mind kids born to parents not married will more than likely have more problems down the road. Stupid people are breeding are a far greater clip than folks that go to college and plan for life. 

I could be wrong, but I would assume idiots can/are being raised in two parent homes as much as they are in single parent homes. Plenty of idiots marry and make more idiots. 

[GreatKazu]

12 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I could be wrong, but I would assume idiots can/are being raised in two parent homes as much as they are in single parent homes. Plenty of idiots marry and make more idiots. 

Very true. Deb and Michael. Butch and April. Cate and Tyler. Poor Nova will more than likely continue the Baltierra cycle of finding herself pregnant as a teen while smoking pot to deal with her fake anxiety. 

1 hour ago, teapot said:

am I crazy, or would most moms have devised an escape plan for themselves & their kids once they knew there was going to be men moving in the house?  I would have been like, "yup, we're going to McDonald's, and to the park, and to visit auntie and..."

Yes! I would have been at that realtor's office real quick to get those keys. If that plan didn't work out, my ass would have been at that hotel and ordering in food. If the pool was heated, you can bet that is where my ass would have been. Kaiser would have been having a ball being in a pool. He would have burned himself out and gone right to sleep. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by GreatKazu

[ClassyCourtHeels]

45 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I could be wrong, but I would assume idiots can/are being raised in two parent homes as much as they are in single parent homes. Plenty of idiots marry and make more idiots. 

Correct but when talking at a high level, statistically kids coming from married households do much better than those coming from single parent ones. 

[HeySandyStrange]

42 minutes ago, ClassyCourtHeels said:

Correct but when talking at a high level, statistically kids coming from married households do much better than those coming from single parent ones. 

 

42 minutes ago, ClassyCourtHeels said:

Correct but when talking at a high level, statistically kids coming from married households do much better than those coming from single parent ones. 

Maybe so, however a lot of times it does depend on who is generating the statistics. Say if it is The Ultra Christian/Muslim/Judiasm Center for Heterosexual  Nuclear Families, you have to wonder if their is inherent biases. Not saying that is the case with single vs two parent homes, but you can find "statistics" supporting/denouncing any and everything.

A big problem is there is very little support given to families. Not talking about  welfare (which Caucasians consume more of then any group), but basic affordable healthcare, childcare, decent schools, a living wage, ect. These issues are more and more relevant to even college educated, two parent households with this cost of living sky rocketing. I work with kids and am seeing similar issues effect both types of families. 

[ghoulina]

15 hours ago, GreatKazu said:

Yes. Janet made it clear she was concerned about Kail ending up pregnant. 

There was an easy solution to the predicament for Kail - go live rent free somewhere else and see how that works for you. She could have gone to live with Smirnoff Susie. Oh, that's right. She did. She didn't follow rules there either. 

Yea, this isn't like a neutral landlord told Kail she couldn't date. These were her ex's parents, who were kind enough to give her room and board, free of charge. In a pretty decent house, I might add. It's not their fault Jo was an ass to Kail, and they may not have even known the full status of their breakup. But it's their home, and beyond Kail maybe turning up pregnant again, the whole situation could have become mighty awkward. I'm sure they thought the situation was temporary and just wanted to avoid any more drama between Kail and their son until she moved out. 

 

2 hours ago, GreatKazu said:

Oh forgot to add. David's friends said Kaiser smelled like shit. Obviously, referring to a loaded diaper. Poor kid likely had rash by the end of the day. 

Oh wow. I missed that. I don't even want to think how infrequently that poor kid gets changed. I hope Maryssa potty trains him soon. 

[Christina87]

38 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Yea, this isn't like a neutral landlord told Kail she couldn't date. These were her ex's parents, who were kind enough to give her room and board, free of charge. In a pretty decent house, I might add. It's not their fault Jo was an ass to Kail, and they may not have even known the full status of their breakup. But it's their home, and beyond Kail maybe turning up pregnant again, the whole situation could have become mighty awkward. I'm sure they thought the situation was temporary and just wanted to avoid any more drama between Kail and their son until she moved out. 

 

Oh wow. I missed that. I don't even want to think how infrequently that poor kid gets changed. I hope Maryssa potty trains him soon. 

I think what you said about the Riveras made a lot of sense. They may have been very afraid of her becoming pregnant again, and also not known all the details of the breakup!

if this is the case, I really wish they had explained their reasoning to Kail. Maybe they did behind the scenes, but it just came off as unreasonable to me when I watched it. I remember thinking that the rule should be that kail and jo could date, but only outside of the home. I agree it would have caused drama if Kail had brought Jordan back to their house. However, if they had explained exactly what you said to Kail, I would have been on their side. 

[heatherchandler]

On 7/19/2017 at 4:25 PM, teapot said:

I mean, maybe....Amber doesn't yell at "boo boo," and while she's been violent in front of her, I'm never scared that someone is going to be too rough w/Leah like I am Kaiser.  although it was quite untoward when Amber & Matt brought her along to a sex motel while she was sick, so there's that...

WHAT ARE WE WATCHING, YOU GUYS?  OMG!!!

HAHA!!  I mean for real what is this show even???

I was reading a post about Nathan, and it was about how he has strangled 2 women, etc. and a co-worker popped into my office, and glanced at my screen...  I am sure he was like what the hell is she working on?

 

On 7/19/2017 at 10:58 PM, Grandma Saracen said:

It occurred to me as I watched ... 

Grandma Saracen, I just want to say that I love your username.  "Hey grand--maaaa"

 

On 7/20/2017 at 11:43 AM, Lm2162 said:

On a lighter note, my husband came in while I was watching a Chelsea scene and said "whoa, didn't expect that voice!" when he heard Cole. Sometimes it almost sounds like he's imitating Chelsea's voice. 

His voice is really the worst.  It definitely subtracts from any of his good looks.

 

On 7/20/2017 at 1:16 PM, Lm2162 said:

She learned later though: 

"Have fun sleepin in the street, with ya Booooyyyyfrrrieenddd"

Can't think of Babs without that and "high, high, ya both high" and "well Jenelle, I seen ya with Kieffa"

I am sure everyone here was reading that in her voice.  "Well Janelle..."

[Calm81]

42 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

 

Maybe so, however a lot of times it does depend on who is generating the statistics. Say if it is The Ultra Christian/Muslim/Judiasm Center for Heterosexual  Nuclear Families, you have to wonder if their is inherent biases. Not saying that is the case with single vs two parent homes, but you can find "statistics" supporting/denouncing any and everything.

A big problem is there is very little support given to families. Not talking about  welfare (which Caucasians consume more of then any group), but basic affordable healthcare, childcare, decent schools, a living wage, ect. These issues are more and more relevant to even college educated, two parent households with this cost of living sky rocketing. I work with kids and am seeing similar issues effect both types of families. 

Where did you read this?

From what I read caucasians take 38% while blacks use 39%.

I'm not trying to argue about the issue just curious about the actual statistics.

[Christina87]

I thought more white peoples were on it, but it was a bigger percentage of the black population. Not to get too off topic. One more white person, jenelle, will be on it soon!

[ClassyCourtHeels]

34 minutes ago, Calm81 said:

Where did you read this?

From what I read caucasians take 38% while blacks use 39%.

I'm not trying to argue about the issue just curious about the actual statistics.

I think it's 39% white and 38% black

 

But that doesn't come close to mirroring the general population break down of whites at 70% and AA at 13%

[HeySandyStrange]

It was from something I heard a few years ago, which perhaps was out of date. It made sense to me because white people are still the majority is the US.

[lezlers]

4 hours ago, teapot said:

Time Masheen!  HA!!!

IT'S FUELED BY ELECTROLYTES!

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, Calm81 said:

Where did you read this?

From what I read caucasians take 38% while blacks use 39%.

I'm not trying to argue about the issue just curious about the actual statistics.

Depends on what we are calling "welfare" as some people mean any assistance, including SSDI and disability benefits, while others are just referring to food stamps, etc., so it's hard to reach a consensus on this. These were the latest stats I could find for SNAP--40.2% white (right now 63% of the population), 25% black (14% of the population), 10.3% Hispanic (17% of the population). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/28/food-stamp-demographics_n_6771938.html Most of these households include children, disabled people, and elderly folks. People of color are also likelier than whites to be disabled/ill and around 50% of children under 5 are nonwhite, so that shifts the numbers somewhat.

Would love to see any more recent stats anyone can find as I found it rather difficult.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Lm2162

[Calm81]

3 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Depends on what we are calling "welfare" as some people mean any assistance, including SSDI and disability benefits, while others are just referring to food stamps, etc., so it's hard to reach a consensus on this. These were the latest stats I could find for SNAP--40.2% white (right now 63% of the population), 25% black (14% of the population), 10.3% Hispanic (17% of the population). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/28/food-stamp-demographics_n_6771938.html Most of these households include children, disabled people, and elderly folks. People of color are also likelier than whites to be disabled/ill and around 50% of children under 5 are nonwhite, so that shifts the numbers somewhat.

Would love to see any more recent stats anyone can find as I found it rather difficult.

Good girl. ?

I love graphs, pie charts and statistics. I'm a data nerd. 

I just wish it wasn't so hard to get assistance when needed. The government makes people jump through fire meanwhile people like Jenelle, Leah, Kailyn, Amber and Matt live uppa class lifestyles.

[SPLAIN]

18 hours ago, lilmarysunshine said:

Nobody has said she needs to raise Kaiser. 

I think the implication from some is, Barb sees the big picture and is likely keeping her distance from Kaiser and Ensley so she is not tempted to take them in her care when UBT and Jenelle break up because we all know Jenelle can't deal with raising her kids all alone. Nathan is not dependable to raise Kaiser by himself for long periods of time. All of these kids in these situations seem to end up with someone's parent. Better for Barb to step back and continue with her life and raise Jace.

 

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I think what you said about the Riveras made a lot of sense. They may have been very afraid of her becoming pregnant again, and also not known all the details of the breakup!

if this is the case, I really wish they had explained their reasoning to Kail. Maybe they did behind the scenes, but it just came off as unreasonable to me when I watched it. I remember thinking that the rule should be that kail and jo could date, but only outside of the home. I agree it would have caused drama if Kail had brought Jordan back to their house. However, if they had explained exactly what you said to Kail, I would have been on their side. 

MTV's editing is pretty wonky and shoddy. We also know that even judges have made things clear to Kail and she still believes the rules don't apply to her. Kail's life choices are all because she chose not to follow rules set forth by those who are in control. She still to this day won't use a hands-free phone no matter how many times she gets cited by the cops. The Riveras have credibility, Kail does not and never will. They told her the rules and they laid it all out to her as to why certain rules were in place. Someone mentioned the Riveras being liable for Kail's care as they were her guardians. You think they want to be liable for her coming home pregnant and then having that responsibility fall on their shoulders? That question is certainly not directed at you.

As @ghoulina put it so eloquently, the key was to get Kail back in school and hopefully get her situated so that she could live on her own before anything awkward such as becoming pregnant with another guy's baby causes drama and upheaval in their home. It was hard enough having Jo and Kail at each other's throats while living under the same roof.

Edited July 21, 2017 by SPLAIN

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I'm pretty sure Kail was 18 when she started seeing Jordan, too....so she was an adult. If she didn't like the rules at the home with free rent, food, and childcare, she could certainly have left. (She eventually went to Suzi's and could have done that earlier, I imagine. She also could have just waited on dating Jordan for a few months while she saved up to move out.)

[Calm81]

I just Realized that adding the 5th girl made for extremely less time for each girls story and Kailyn is being so closed off. How is MTV justifying their salary? That's a lot of money they're receiving...and for what? So we can watch Leah's daughter wonder where her toothbrush is and for Kailyn to say she's not talking about anything and turn off the lights and go to bed.

 

Since they're alreading filming the next season, there's no hope in a cancellation but viewers are going to get bored of watching mundane episodes aside from Jenelles crazy time. She's the only one bringing the drama as not too many people care about Briana just yet.

I see salaries being chopped soon to accommodate the extra cast member/employee and the less footage the girls are providing.