The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[quarks]

4 hours ago, crazy8s said:

but random replacements of a character by a new actor in the same role might be entertaining.

 

Yes, but would we even notice?  I mean, I'm on record as admitting that I didn't even know there was a Justin. The chances that I'd notice a replacement? Nil.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, charmed1 said:

I haven’t watched the show in ages so forgive me, but who is Justin? Is he the one who fell into the orchestra pit and had to be saved by Jill? All these Rod & Todds are indistinguishable to me except for James. I identify them by whatever neglectful thing happened to them on 19K and Counting, ex. James’ depressing birthday.

Wow at this girl’s mom being a year younger than I am. She looks the same age as Michelle in their photo together. Maybe that means Michelle looks young.

Justin is the boy right above Jackson in birth order. 

[Misslindsey]

5 hours ago, crazy8s said:

but random replacements of a character by a new actor in the same role might be entertaining.

 

I am all for this. The voiceover will say "The roles of Jed! and Jer will be played by Bert and Ernie." or "The role of Jeremy Vuolo will be played by a pocket square."

[PikaScrewChu]

1 hour ago, charmed1 said:

I haven’t watched the show in ages so forgive me, but who is Justin? Is he the one who fell into the orchestra pit and had to be saved by Jill? All these Rod & Todds are indistinguishable to me except for James. I identify them by whatever neglectful thing happened to them on 19K and Counting, ex. James’ depressing birthday.

Wow at this girl’s mom being a year younger than I am. She looks the same age as Michelle in their photo together. Maybe that means Michelle looks young.

Jason was the one who fell in the pit.

[Zella]

22 minutes ago, Misslindsey said:

"The role of Jeremy Vuolo will be played by a pocket square."

I would pay money to make this happen. 🤣

[Bayarea4]

My suggestion for the Justin and Claire thread is:

"Justin and Claire: You Can Hurry Love"

[Vantraveller]

On 9/23/2020 at 12:28 AM, Nysha said:

The age of consent means the age when teens are deemed mature enough to have sex, not date. Johannah could date TimBits (god forbid) but as long as they're not engaged in any sexual activity they're not doing anything illegal. And given that they would never be together without a chaperone or allowed to even talk on the phone, I'm pretty sure Johannah's virtue would be safe.

I don't care about the age difference, just the actual age. 

I'm not sure about the US, but where I'm from this would be illegal. Even if there is no sexual activity, an older person is considered to be grooming the younger person so that they can have sex when they are old enough. So if a 20 year old was dating a 15 year old (the age of consent here is 16) and then they started having sex when the younger person turned 16, this is considered a sex offence.

[Temperance]

5 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

I guess I have not been paying attention, because I was not aware of this courtship.  

I am baffled, though, Jer and Jed are going to be 22 in December.

Jason is 20. James is 19.  

And yet it is Justin , not even 18 yet, who is courting?  It just boggles the mind.  Not that any of them are really mature enough for a wife, but let's let the youngest of the bunch, who most likely has not even graduated from "Duggar Academy" get into a courtship.  WTF?

I bet Jim Bob is loving the fact that he has 4 married sons and one ongoing courtship, and Gil Bates has 1 married son, and a bunch of failed courtships.

Nathan has announced an private courtship, but this one might work.

I, too am baffled it's the youngest underage son. I was also surprised he was in Texas for the reveal.  They have to live in AR for the show right?

 

[Zella]

@AussiesRule We need to page one of our awesome lawyers on here for confirmation, but I don't think you can be charged in the US for behavior that is seen as grooming (or is grooming). You get charged for committing a molestation or an assault, not the grooming behavior beforehand (provided it doesn't involve sexual activity.) As far as I know, once the person is at the legal age of consent and no other laws are being broken, the older party is not going to be retroactively charged for grooming the person beforehand. I'd also note that simply dating someone, imo, is not the same as grooming. So, I don't think the example Nysha gave would be seen as illegal here in the States. Would a lot of people be comfortable with it? No, they wouldn't (and I wouldn't be okay at all with that big of an age gap for someone dating a teen, though the one for Justin and Claire didn't bother me), but I agree with her that doesn't make it inherently illegal--what's illegal is having sex with someone that age, not dating them, even if you do eventually have sex with them once they are of age. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Zella

[MsJamieDornan]

7 hours ago, doodlebug said:

On All My Children, many years ago, one of the kids went upstairs to get his skis and never came back down again.  

Maybe Justin has Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndr

Ultimately, the producers of the show decided that there were too many Martins running around, and they wrote off little Bobby. They sent him up to the attic to get his skis (never mind the fact that he was about to head off to summer camp.

[Jynnan tonnix]

6 hours ago, Bayarea4 said:

My suggestion for the Justin and Claire thread is:

"Justin and Claire: You Can Hurry Love"

See, I kind of really like this. I liked the other choice with the song title (They Should Have called it Puppy Love), except that there's an annoyingly Pollyanna-ish side to me which says that we simply don't know exactly what the dynamics here are, and, while unlikely, it certainly happens that teens meet and instantly form a lifelong bond. This title kind of works for both the cynical and idealistic scenarios.

As an aside, I do imagine that a lot of these fundie marriages work better in the long term than we might sometimes think. Even when it comes to these younger kids who, it seems, should have years to meet and get to know various people and find the best fit. But this is where their "giving away pieces of your heart" philosophy actually makes a little bit of sense, I think (don't hurt me). If they are never exposed to anyone outside of their immediate circle, and marry the first person of the opposite sex with whom there is an attraction, no matter how trivial (unfortunately, the question of whether someone of the same sex might be more appropriate to them never comes up, but that's a somewhat different topic right here), chances are that if the match is less than perfect, they will hardly realize it over time because they have been groomed and trained their whole lives. If both spouses cling to the "everything for Jesus" philosophy, and neither has anyone else to compare their relationship with each other to, then, outside of, say, one of them somehow seeing the light and leaving the cult, or, worse, one of them simply turning out to be a horrible and abusive individual, they will just follow along, thinking that what they have is bliss, because that's what the Bible promises to the faithful, and therefore that's what it must be. Now, especially for someone like Justin, who, for whatever reason, happened into this sort of attraction at a young age, it's imperative that they get him married off before this attraction fades and another one comes to take its place, because that would upset the whole formula. Best to chalk it up to God leading the way, and tie that knot fast. Then, even if he might wonder, a few years down the road, whether this might have been the best choice for him, there will be kids coming along every couple of years, and, hopefully enough of a bond will have built up that, barring a truly horrible mismatch of personalities or the aforementioned apostasy or abuse, they will just not have the time or inclination to put much thought into it, but continue praying away any bumps in the road. In some ways, I suppose that's not the worst thing. 

Wow, sorry, that was quite an aside. Just thoughts that come to me sometimes when I start pondering on fundie dynamics. I can definitely see where there are personalities out there for whom this sort of black and white approach to life has its appeal. I don't think I could do it, because I don't know how to think in anything but shades of grey, but can definitely see where there could be a real sense of serenity that can come with basically never having to make any decisions for yourself because they have, in a sense, all been laid out for you ahead of time.

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Justin is the boy right above Jackson in birth order. 

Speaking of which, did anyone else notice Jackson making a comment directly to the camera?, I think it was something about never knowing who's going to be next to be in a relationship and making a strange attempt to move his eyebrows as if to suggest he'll be the surprise candidate.  He's finally put on a bit of growth so we don't automatically expect he's of grade school age, but not so much that it's anywhere near time to suspect he's ready for a relationship.  Take a date to the homecoming dance, yes.  A relationship with all the baggage that comes with it in his family, absolutely not.   

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Speaking of which, did anyone else notice Jackson making a comment directly to the camera?, I think it was something about never knowing who's going to be next to be in a relationship and making a strange attempt to move his eyebrows as if to suggest he'll be the surprise candidate.  He's finally put on a bit of growth so we don't automatically expect he's of grade school age, but not so much that it's anywhere near time to suspect he's ready for a relationship.  Take a date to the homecoming dance, yes.  A relationship with all the baggage that comes with it in his family, absolutely not.   

Jackson is 16, so taking someone to homecoming would be appropriate. 

[sheshark]

8 hours ago, Temperance said:

I, too am baffled it's the youngest underage son. I was also surprised he was in Texas for the reveal.  They have to live in AR for the show right?

 

Maybe choosing the most forgettable Justin for an arranged courtship is just Jim Bob’s way of shaking things up and getting people talking.  Also we all know the Duggars never socially distanced, but what 17 year old is allowed to stay in another state during all this?  

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

See, I kind of really like this. I liked the other choice with the song title (They Should Have called it Puppy Love), except that there's an annoyingly Pollyanna-ish side to me which says that we simply don't know exactly what the dynamics here are, and, while unlikely, it certainly happens that teens meet and instantly form a lifelong bond. This title kind of works for both the cynical and idealistic scenarios.

As an aside, I do imagine that a lot of these fundie marriages work better in the long term than we might sometimes think. Even when it comes to these younger kids who, it seems, should have years to meet and get to know various people and find the best fit. But this is where their "giving away pieces of your heart" philosophy actually makes a little bit of sense, I think (don't hurt me). If they are never exposed to anyone outside of their immediate circle, and marry the first person of the opposite sex with whom there is an attraction, no matter how trivial (unfortunately, the question of whether someone of the same sex might be more appropriate to them never comes up, but that's a somewhat different topic right here), chances are that if the match is less than perfect, they will hardly realize it over time because they have been groomed and trained their whole lives. If both spouses cling to the "everything for Jesus" philosophy, and neither has anyone else to compare their relationship with each other to, then, outside of, say, one of them somehow seeing the light and leaving the cult, or, worse, one of them simply turning out to be a horrible and abusive individual, they will just follow along, thinking that what they have is bliss, because that's what the Bible promises to the faithful, and therefore that's what it must be. Now, especially for someone like Justin, who, for whatever reason, happened into this sort of attraction at a young age, it's imperative that they get him married off before this attraction fades and another one comes to take its place, because that would upset the whole formula. Best to chalk it up to God leading the way, and tie that knot fast. Then, even if he might wonder, a few years down the road, whether this might have been the best choice for him, there will be kids coming along every couple of years, and, hopefully enough of a bond will have built up that, barring a truly horrible mismatch of personalities or the aforementioned apostasy or abuse, they will just not have the time or inclination to put much thought into it, but continue praying away any bumps in the road. In some ways, I suppose that's not the worst thing. 

Wow, sorry, that was quite an aside. Just thoughts that come to me sometimes when I start pondering on fundie dynamics. I can definitely see where there are personalities out there for whom this sort of black and white approach to life has its appeal. I don't think I could do it, because I don't know how to think in anything but shades of grey, but can definitely see where there could be a real sense of serenity that can come with basically never having to make any decisions for yourself because they have, in a sense, all been laid out for you ahead of time.

@Jynnan tonnix no I understand what you’re saying. If you are raised to believe that marriage exists to join two families, a safe venue to meet ones need for partnered sex, raise children, and general companionship I get it, there’s no point in long western style dating (but I still think both parties should at least be 21 when they start chatting about that).

However the Duggars don’t teach their kids that (like many who come from families where arranged marriages are common do). They fill their head with all these notions of romantic love and emotional intimacy (which JB& Michelle had because they chose each other) which is going to leave many very unfulfilled and upset. And they will have no idea WHY which would make for a poor co-parent and life partner. 

[Churchhoney]

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Justin is the boy right above Jackson in birth order. 

Yep. This is what we know about him.

Just the way JB and M like it. We basically know their numbers......or some of them, anyway. 

Oh, and we know that they have hearts for Jesus and their parents can hardly wait to see what the Lord has in store for them. But since that goes for all of them, it doesn't really signify. 

And they've been on television for over 12 years. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Churchhoney

[rue721]

5 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

they will just follow along, thinking that what they have is bliss, because that's what the Bible promises to the faithful, and therefore that's what it must be

The issue comes as the kids grow up and (likely) grow apart. These two are so young that they're liable to change A LOT still in their lives. Maybe they'll grow and change together, and their relationship will be a wonderful support system and source of strength...or maybe they'll grow and change in different directions and they'll become each others' ball-and-chain or even warden.

I've seen the former happen and don't think it's impossible. But I know that as much as I loved my high school boyfriend at the time, THANK GOD we could date and eventually break up. We were happy together for a time, but we would not have been happy together for life. We weren't even happy together for all of freshman year of college lol.

What worries me especially about these two in terms of their compatibility is that the things they like to do together are so...impersonal? It doesn't seem like they have some great connection, it seems like they're two teenagers with chemistry. But who am I to say.

What really makes me sad about this marriage isn't their hypothetical future incompatibility anyway, it's that they're both already being tied down to marriage and probably babies and more babies, without ever being able to go out into the world and see it for themselves. They're hothouse flowers, and they'll never get into the garden, let alone the forest. It's wrong of their parents to trap them this way, but their parents will never think so. I guess their best hope for happiness is if they never think so, either.

[doodlebug]

13 hours ago, Zella said:

@AussiesRule We need to page one of our awesome lawyers on here for confirmation, but I don't think you can be charged in the US for behavior that is seen as grooming (or is grooming). You get charged for committing a molestation or an assault, not the grooming behavior beforehand (provided it doesn't involve sexual activity.) As far as I know, once the person is at the legal age of consent and no other laws are being broken, the older party is not going to be retroactively charged for grooming the person beforehand. I'd also note that simply dating someone, imo, is not the same as grooming. So, I don't think the example Nysha gave would be seen as illegal here in the States. Would a lot of people be comfortable with it? No, they wouldn't (and I wouldn't be okay at all with that big of an age gap for someone dating a teen, though the one for Justin and Claire didn't bother me), but I agree with her that doesn't make it inherently illegal--what's illegal is having sex with someone that age, not dating them, even if you do eventually have sex with them once they are of age. 

Thinking of Mary Kay LeTourneau who married her victim after she was released from prison and he turned 18; I think you're right.  

[Scarlett45]

@AussiesRule I’m an attorney in IL- and I know in this state (and in no other state I can think of), theres no equivalent to a grooming charge that would apply. We have statues against harassment and assault/battery of course, transmission of lewd images etc- but so long as the older party didn’t assault or harass the minor before (or after) the age of majority dating is perfectly legal. Dating is socializing, and people of any age can socialize with minors so long as the minors parents don’t disagree. 

Again- Justin is 17, I also can’t think of any US state where a 17 year old isn’t allowed to consent to sex with a 19yrs old. And they aren’t having sex. I doubt they are even kissing or holding hands. They are “hanging out”. Just like Joy did with Austin (and the age gap was bigger). 
 

@Zella and @doodlebug are correct. 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

The issue comes as the kids grow up and (likely) grow apart. These two are so young that they're liable to change A LOT still in their lives. Maybe they'll grow and change together, and their relationship will be a wonderful support system and source of strength...or maybe they'll grow and change in different directions and they'll become each others' ball-and-chain or even warden.

I've seen the former happen and don't think it's impossible. But I know that as much as I loved my high school boyfriend at the time, THANK GOD we could date and eventually break up. We were happy together for a time, but we would not have been happy together for life. We weren't even happy together for all of freshman year of college lol.

What worries me especially about these two in terms of their compatibility is that the things they like to do together are so...impersonal? It doesn't seem like they have some great connection, it seems like they're two teenagers with chemistry. But who am I to say.

What really makes me sad about this marriage isn't their hypothetical future incompatibility anyway, it's that they're both already being tied down to marriage and probably babies and more babies, without ever being able to go out into the world and see it for themselves. They're hothouse flowers, and they'll never get into the garden, let alone the forest. It's wrong of their parents to trap them this way, but their parents will never think so. I guess their best hope for happiness is if they never think so, either.

I think this is true, but, in these sorts of families, the parameters for growth are so very narrow.  Is Claire going to grow enough that she decides she wants to go to college and study Anthropology?  Or go to trade school and become an auto mechanic?  Those things are so far outside the scope of her experience and upbringing, that I doubt it would even become an issue.  She has been raised and educated to think there is only one career for her: to be a married stay at home mother, raising and probably homeschooling her kids.  Unless her entire belief system is scrapped, she is never going to be able to change much at all.

Although he's a little less limited, Justin also doesn't have many options.  He's been raised to believe his job is someplace in a business run by his family, that his wife will never work and will always be submissive to him, that they'll have as many kids as God gives them.

Look at Jill, we talk about how much she has changed, but the basic outline of her life is still well within the box her parents put her in at birth.

[BigBingerBro]

[jcbrown]

22 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Wow--he really is MEchelle's kid. He looks positively deranged there.

[emmawoodhouse]

He looks like Josiah with the bug eyes and gaping maw.

Edited September 25, 2020 by emmawoodhouse

[Zella]

Were they both told to look like jack-o-lanterns for that photo op? Or Jill Rodrigues? 

[emmawoodhouse]

They look possessed. 😂

[auntieminem]

Wasn't Justin planning on being the preaching mechanic?  They showed him a few times working on cars with another preaching mechanic, maybe Cadwell.  I can't keep any of them straight.  All I know is Justin was shown a few time head under hood and could fix any vehicle. 

 

[emmawoodhouse]

Yes, Justin was shown working on cars with Pa Caldwell. I have no idea if he's kept up with that. 

[GeeGolly]

4 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Yes, Justin was shown working on cars with Pa Caldwell. I have no idea if he's kept up with that. 

Well Claire does like "watching him work on his truck".

[Churchhoney]

9 hours ago, jcbrown said:

Wow--he really is MEchelle's kid. He looks positively deranged there.

You can tell how confining their lives are when you realize that making basically this same dumb-ass face at a camera by way of entertainment, apparently, is universal in the whole damn Duggar family.

Their lives pretty much consist of doing nothing of interest or note while repeatedly having cameras shoved in their faces. So they've all come up with this one dumb face to make.......and the dumb face comes close to expressing the whole of their inner lives, seems like. They're like animals in a puppy-mill pet store who don't realize anything exists besides their crummy little cages. 

 

[Marshmallow Mollie]

http://www.chicagonow.com/moms-who-drink-and-swear/2014/08/im-a-little-jealous-of-jill-duggar/
 

This conversation reminds me of the above article. We know there are a lot of problems with the gender roles and subjugation of women in the Duggar world, but I read this article when it came out six years ago and obviously still think of it from time to time. There is comfort in knowing what your role is, as does your community. For better or for worse, Justin and Claire’s lives are already laid out before them, and there are some advantages to that.

[Vantraveller]

19 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

@AussiesRule I’m an attorney in IL- and I know in this state (and in no other state I can think of), theres no equivalent to a grooming charge that would apply. We have statues against harassment and assault/battery of course, transmission of lewd images etc- but so long as the older party didn’t assault or harass the minor before (or after) the age of majority dating is perfectly legal. Dating is socializing, and people of any age can socialize with minors so long as the minors parents don’t disagree. 

Again- Justin is 17, I also can’t think of any US state where a 17 year old isn’t allowed to consent to sex with a 19yrs old. And they aren’t having sex. I doubt they are even kissing or holding hands. They are “hanging out”. Just like Joy did with Austin (and the age gap was bigger). 
 

@Zella and @doodlebug are correct. 

@SCARLETT45 I get what you are saying but in my original post I stated that I wasn't sure about the US but here in my part of Australia there is  an actual offence of grooming before there is any sexual contact. It applies to any person over 18 engaging in the behaviour with anyone under 16. As per our law "Grooming does not necessarily involve any sexual activity or even discussion of sexual activity – for example, it may only involve establishing a relationship with the child for the purpose of facilitating sexual activity at a later time."  I know Justin and Claire don't fit into this category but someone else suggested that anyone of any age can date (eg a 20 year and a 15 year old). This is not the case where I live. 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, AussiesRule said:

@SCARLETT45 I get what you are saying but in my original post I stated that I wasn't sure about the US but here in my part of Australia there is  an actual offence of grooming before there is any sexual contact. It applies to any person over 18 engaging in the behaviour with anyone under 16. As per our law "Grooming does not necessarily involve any sexual activity or even discussion of sexual activity – for example, it may only involve establishing a relationship with the child for the purpose of facilitating sexual activity at a later time."  I know Justin and Claire don't fit into this category but someone else suggested that anyone of any age can date (eg a 20 year and a 15 year old). This is not the case where I live. 

Taking my response to small talk. 

[Temperance]

4 hours ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

http://www.chicagonow.com/moms-who-drink-and-swear/2014/08/im-a-little-jealous-of-jill-duggar/
 

This conversation reminds me of the above article. We know there are a lot of problems with the gender roles and subjugation of women in the Duggar world, but I read this article when it came out six years ago and obviously still think of it from time to time. There is comfort in knowing what your role is, as does your community. For better or for worse, Justin and Claire’s lives are already laid out before them, and there are some advantages to that.

Well Jill's life certainly has not gone the way it was laid out for her. She had two extremely difficult births. She's stopped having children at least for while, and a longer time than her mother ever went between pregnancies. She's no longer on television. Her boys are going to public school. She drinks alcohol, maybe she'll pick up swearing too. 

Life sends everyone a few curveballs, even the Duggars. There's no telling where you'll end up. 

[JoanArc]

From Reddit

 

Maybe Justin is a Sin-in-the-camper, too?

He should go to live with Jill, not get married.

[Heathen]

52 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

From Reddit

 

Maybe Justin is a Sin-in-the-camper, too?

He should go to live with Jill, not get married.

Jill's raised enough of her siblings already. She doesn't need to become Justin's caretaker, or anyone else's for that matter. 

[emmawoodhouse]

He was actually on Jessa's buddy team. Let him go live with HER. 😂

[PikaScrewChu]

3 hours ago, JoanArc said:

From Reddit

 

Maybe Justin is a Sin-in-the-camper, too?

He should go to live with Jill, not get married.

Jim Bob and Michelle also forgot that there was a Justin. 

[madpsych78]

The Reddit thread brought up an interesting theory though:  Of the Duggar boys, the ones betrothed/courting at younger ages are the ones that JB and Michelle perceive as "problem" sons and needed to unload on someone else (e.g., Josh, Josiah had the first courtship worked). The sons who were courting when they were relatively older (e.g., definitely JD, Joseph) were those who were "good" sons and who towed the line.

If that theory is consistent, then Jed! will probably not court for a very, very long time.

[emmawoodhouse]

And Sinner Twin Jeer should announce a courtship any day now. 😁

[awaken]

22 hours ago, auntieminem said:

Wasn't Justin planning on being the preaching mechanic?  They showed him a few times working on cars with another preaching mechanic, maybe Cadwell.  I can't keep any of them straight.  All I know is Justin was shown a few time head under hood and could fix any vehicle. 

 

Lol, I thought that was Jackson!  

[GeeGolly]

If a 17 year old is so immature he runs away because his parents didn't do a SM post for his birthday, then he certainly isn't mature enough to marry.

[PikaScrewChu]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

If a 17 year old is so immature he runs away because his parents didn't do a SM post for his birthday, then he certainly isn't mature enough to marry.

Let's be real. None of these kids, with the exception of JD and Abbie, were mature enough to get married. Even that one, ehhhhh...

Their parents kept their growth stunted so they would still be dependent on Ma and Pa. They're made to think marriage is the panacea that will solve everything.

Michelle and Jim Bob really failed these kids. You can see it in Jill and how she's navigating life outside of Duggarville. NINETEEN CHILDREN IS TOO MANY. 

[ouinason]

I think the point was that they forgot his birthday full stop, not that they forgot to put up a SM post about it.  They forget he exists.  He's just another face in the crowd and that can breed all kinds of resentment, even in smaller families.

[crazycatlady58]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

If a 17 year old is so immature he runs away because his parents didn't do a SM post for his birthday, then he certainly isn't mature enough to marry.

Did he really run away? 

[GeeGolly]

12 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Did he really run away? 

No, I doubt it. I doubt they forgot his birthday either. How would anyone know that?

[Scarlett45]

The second and final round to choose the new thread title for Justin & Claire is here.

[BigBingerBro]

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

they look happy. the smiles on their faces are genuine.

[BitterApple]

They look like a mother and son posing on the day of his high school graduation. We've seen some weird ass courtships with this crew, but this one takes the cake.

[iwantcookies]

I see he got the JB death grip on her!