S13.E07: Week 7: Switzerland

[truthaboutluv]

My only contribution to this discussion is that until this whole conversation, I didn't notice anything wrong in Eric's speech.  Frankly I'm still more disturbed by Peter's "Rachel and I's relationship". 

[mostlylurking]

9 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

"Rachel and I's relationship".

This has been a pet peeve of mine for many seasons now!  It's so common!

Where I live people say "I seen" a lot.  Also put random r's at the end or words.  Pasta(r).  Vodka(r).  Youse (I am guilty of this at times and I hate it!).  Drives me bananas.

[mostlylurking]

English is my second language although I did learn in second grade.  Most of my family lives in Europe and they all speak English but "proper" English (British English).  I think they speak/sound better than I do since I speak "lazy" English (American English).  The funny thing is that they absolutely love American accents and wish they had one!  So I guess it's all subject to personal opinions. 

ETA:  By they way they don't live in GB but it is very common and encouraged to speak more than one language in Europe.  An area where the States lag far behind unfortunately.

Edited July 13, 2017 by mostlylurking

[catrice2]

39 minutes ago, dleighg said:

Might that be western Pennsylvania? My parents met and married in Pittsburgh and another "incorrect" regionalism (which I "inherited" until I was told it was wrong well into adulthood) is "that car needs washed" or "that tree needs pruned"

Different people have different degrees of acceptance of correct spoken, vs correct written. I for example can be a bit loose with spoken, friendly English. My DH on the other hand would never let an ungrammatical sentence escape his lips. But I still maintain that I (personally) would be uncomfortable with Eric's spoken English on a daily basis. I hear the argument that it is a rules-driven dialect. I still don't like it.  I guess my loosey-goosey (casual spoken) English is being overlooked by my DH :)

No, Indiana.  It's funny because when we were dating my husband told me a story about how he never realized that his family said words a certain way until he went away to college and he tried to change.  Wash and color were the two words he mentioned.  He says that even today he still thinks before he says certain words .  I remember telling him not to change himself for anybody and not to worry about what other people think.  I still feel that way, but I also think those people have a right to be annoyed by it if it bothers them.  We can be annoyed by something and still be accepting of it. 

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

The very fact that you have linked an article about why African Americans don't like to be called "articulate," in order to lecture me about  criticizing Eric for not saying his "th" sounds,  demonstrates exactly what's wrong with the whole "code" concept.  It basically says that when white people talk about black people they are going to be wrong no matter what they say.  If a black person hates white people he can use "That was code!" as an excuse any time he wants against any person he doesn't like. If a white person wants to play the, "I am so much more enlightened than other white people," game they can pretend to understand all the nuances that are lost on the rest of us.  All "code" does is increase tension between races.

I'm white and I certainly don't pretend to understand the nuances of racism to seem more enlightened than other white people who don't--or even to understand the nuances at all. But I think being open to hearing why certain terms have a racist connotation and then avoiding those terms in the future would lessen racial tension, not increase it. I only learned about the coded racism behind "articulate" maybe a year ago--I think from fellow previously.tv posters, perhaps on the "Atlanta" board. (Public service announcement: AMAZING show--funny, poignant, and profound all at the same time. Also helps to explain institutional racism.) But until someone points out why is it a common "compliment" to call a black person "articulate" when you wouldn't use the same term to describe a white person? Damn! You don't realize that is "racist" thinking even for people like myself who thinks I'm not racist. It's really eye-opening. And I, for one, am glad to have those things pointed out to learn from them and adjust my way of thinking. Granted, I get half the population in 'Merica is very anti-PC for reasons that are lost on me, so I don't think this issue is going away any time soon. To keep it on topic, I'm not an Eric fan for other reasons (lack of emotional intimacy), but I actually think all of the guys left have some emotional unavailability issues going on--even Bryan who is all smolder and smarm, no substance--so I'm really not rooting for anyone at this point.

[catrice2]

3 hours ago, dleighg said:

Yeah I think people *know* that saying "Mark and me went to the movies" is wrong, so they think "I" is the appropriate word to use for proper English in all places. So we get "This trip has been so wonderful for Rachel and I." 

Exactly.  And many people in this franchise say it and have been called out on it. 

[saber5055]

I've dated multiple white, black, hispanic and Chinese guys as well as some guys of "unknown" ethnicity. I could care less what color or race a guy is if he is a good guy. AND he can speak correctly. If one said, "Her and I's relationship," he's gone. If one said "I'm going witchu," HE'S gone, too. I have my standards and grammar is one of them. In fact, in my online dating profile, I wrote being able to use pronouns correctly is a must. Talk about code and race and where someone lives ... I could care less. I just know what I look for in the men I date, and correct grammar is at the top. Eric is off my "want-to-date" list, and his background, race and upbringing has nothing to do "witchit."

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, Welp said:

Educator here. I speak multiple languages/dialects and have a linguistics background (I've taught both ESL and a second language to native English speakers). Some things people seem...confused...about:

1) Grammar is not correct or incorrect outside of context. AAVE (Af-Am Vernacular English) has a consistent grammatical structure just like American English (the "English" umbrella covers multiple languages and dialects) and British English. For example, in AAVE it is grammatically correct to use "been" to indicate a long-since completed past action, e.g., "I been cleaned my room" means "I finished cleaning my room some time ago."

2) The meaning of "Standard English" even varies by country. For example, British and American English have different rules about conjugating the verb "to be" for collective nouns (group, team, etc.).

3) Accents relate to pronunciation, not grammar. 

4) There are different scholarly opinions about what makes a language vs. a dialect, but it's a question of intelligibility (speakers of different dialects being able to understand one another), not complexity. And even that test is fallible because some would argue Castilian Spanish and Portuguese are mutually intelligible, yet most think of them as two different languages.

5) In many schools with diverse populations, the current approach is to treat all students as English Language Learners and teach them to codeswitch between "home language" (whether it's a dialect of English or a second language) and "academic English." Even kids who speak SE at home need direct grammar instruction on the formal language of school (which translates to formal writing), and we all codeswitch depending on audience (friends vs. colleagues, etc.). The goal is to make codeswitching an explicit skill to be learned rather than an implicit judgment of students' backgrounds (which often dovetails with judging their ethnicity, SES, etc.) and to recognize the inherently descriptive nature of English grammar shifts.

There is also a misconception that anyone said it was something to be ashamed of.  I said it annoys me.  I also said that many of the contestants (Nick, etc.) seem to have speech issues that would require intervention from a professional.  Not being able to pronounce th sounds, r's or other blends are typically  issues that are developed at an early age and require therapy, similar to stuttering.   Not everyone has access to that type of therapy and it is certainly not their fault. 

Although I think a lot of it could be about environment, a lot of it is not.  I had a student that always said things like, "I go to  store," instead of I went to the store, and things like that.  I spent a lot of time with the family and NO ONE in her household or extended family spoke that way.  They were so perplexed.  Additionally on my father's side many of his siblings speak totally different and they were raised in the same household and went to the same schools. 

My mom did not finish college,and my dad likes to say he barely finished high school.  He told me a lot of his  early education was in a one room school house.  My mother had one of the most extensive vocabularies I have ever heard.  She would insult us as children and we didn't even know it.  I remember always wondering why she couldn't be normal.  I would always think that I could not wait to grow up so I would know what she was saying about me.  When we had the sex talk I could not even follow because her terms were so unfamiliar and I ran home to look up a few words.  She certainly did not get it from her upbringing as her mother did not finish high school.  As for my father, even with his one room school house in the rural South there are a lot of things that have never come out of his mouth. 

I think it is a lot more complex and there are many variables that shape the way that people express themselves. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by catrice2
Correcting talk to text. Add a sentence.I give up.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV podcast on the episode!

 

Whine & Roses: Will The Bachelorette Remain Neutral In Switzerland?

Rachel and the dudes check out Geneva, where they try on watches and attend Mass. EXCITING!

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, betha said:

19 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Edited to add - one thing that came out last night that would bug me if I were a man trying to date Rachel, she turns 'lawyer' way too easily. It's one thing when it's funny when she's calling Demario out but when you're trying to get a man to open up (aka Dean date) and you start to grill him like he's on the stand and not seeing how clearly uncomfortable he is, you need to take a step back 

That seemed to me like producers needed him to talk about his dad and made Rachel keep at it. It was pretty tough to watch.

That was Weightyghosts post, not mine.

[catrice2]

8 hours ago, waving feather said:

They don't do it every season but there were similar Cinderella dates in the past seasons (usually on the Bachelor) where the date receives a necklace or bracelet that they get to keep. But I don't remember ever having the lead and one of the contestants buying matching his & hers items. And both Bryan and Rachel have been wearing their watches after the show. Hm. 

I loved that dog sled date, and that Glacier looks majestic, up until the point where they just left Peter and Rachel sitting in the middle of nowhere freezing their asses off. That didn't look enjoyable at all and they could barely talk because the wind was so cold. I hope they didn't spend too long there. 

What really annoys me about this is the whole, "I need to get you there, I need for you to tell me you love me," when the lead knows they are not going to keep a person.  I would venture to guess that at this point Rachel is 95% sure of whom she is going to choose and many of the hometowns are just a formality.  At this point, she is playing good little lead for the producers and pulling the people along and encouraging them to open up so she can dump them and the exits can be more dramatic...similar to how Nick (knowing he was not going to keep her) kept poking until he got her to admit either that she loved him or was falling love with him and as soon as she did she was axed.  It is like there is some obsession with getting these people to say certain things all for dramatic effect. 

No way would I continue "giving of myself in this process" if I were one of the contestants and another came back to the room with a matching gift like a watch, ring or bracelet (Prince Harry).  At that point even if I had been there "for the right reasons," my focus would shift to trying to get what I could out of the process and just not totally humiliating myself.  I am hoping that one of the final four leaves of his own accord. 

[Welp]

ETA: Nevermind. The resources are there if folks want to educate themselves.

[Alison]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

The very fact that you have linked an article about why African Americans don't like to be called "articulate," in order to lecture me about  criticizing Eric for not saying his "th" sounds,  demonstrates exactly what's wrong with the whole "code" concept.  It basically says that when white people talk about black people they are going to be wrong no matter what they say.  If a black person hates white people he can use "That was code!" as an excuse any time he wants against any person he doesn't like. If a white person wants to play the, "I am so much more enlightened than other white people," game they can pretend to understand all the nuances that are lost on the rest of us.  All "code" does is increase tension between races.

I apologize if my post came across as lecturing in tone; that was not my intent. The article I shared wasn't directed at you - I remember many posts after the season premiere lauding how articulate Rachel was, a word I can't recall ever being used to describe another lead in the entire franchise. It's just one example of coded language that kind of correlates to the Eric/grammar issue at hand. Frankly, as a white person, I don't think you (or me or anyone else who isn't a person of color) have any right to say "The code concept is wrong!" It exists because institutionalized racism exists. It exists because our country is embarrassingly racist. It doesn't seek to make white people "wrong," but rather inform them of subconscious biases they may have that have crept into their speech. I'm not claiming to be more enlightened than anyone, so again, apologies if that's how my post came off, but, as someone who tries to be a good ally, I think it's important to have these kinds of conversations, as uncomfortable as they can be.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Alison
Wouldn't let me reply to a second quoted post, so I deleted it.

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

I've dated multiple white, black, hispanic and Chinese guys as well as some guys of "unknown" ethnicity. I could care less what color or race a guy is if he is a good guy. AND he can speak correctly. If one said, "Her and I's relationship," he's gone. If one said "I'm going witchu," HE'S gone, too. I have my standards and grammar is one of them. In fact, in my online dating profile, I wrote being able to use pronouns correctly is a must. Talk about code and race and where someone lives ... I could care less. I just know what I look for in the men I date, and correct grammar is at the top. Eric is off my "want-to-date" list, and his background, race and upbringing has nothing to do "witchit."

I dated a guy like this a long time ago. He was much older and seemed very smooth in other ways.  He was an excellent cook, dressed well, etc. He did, however, say "ast" instead of "ask," and he also could not make the th sound at the end of words.  Although it bothered me slightly, it was not a deal breaker.   We casually dated for a little bit and finally realized that we were from the same state and that he grew up not far from my family in a very affluent small town.  We made a trip home to visit our parents to share the expenses on a drive.  His parents were wealthy and college educated as was most of his extended family, and my parents were not.  I was surprised that no one in his family spoke the way he did.  I am not sure being "educated" and/or having a degree has anything to do with it, or necessarily how your family speaks.  I agree with what you said, we like what we like.   I just know that whenever we would get into an argument my annoyance over it would go up about 90%. 

The deal break was when I found out he was darn near 40 and his parents were still sending him an allowance!  Well, that and the 3 daughters.  I actually kept him around because I fell for his daughters, but I didn't want to be a step mom.   He would always use the threat of my no longer seeing them whenever I would tell them I didn't want to see him anymore .  For our  car trip back his mom packed us a cooler and she wrote his name on it. 

I did become a step mom later, and as I have shared before my step daughter was not allowed to watch Rugrats because I could not stand the "bestest," etc. that they said on that show. I would tell her dad that I did not have time to go back and undo the damage.  I know it sounds cruel, but the compromise was if she watched the show  then we had to sit down and do an extra lesson with her to make sure she understood that was not the way to talk or write.   Luckily her mom agreed with this. 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

I've dated multiple white, black, hispanic and Chinese guys as well as some guys of "unknown" ethnicity. I could care less what color or race a guy is if he is a good guy. AND he can speak correctly. If one said, "Her and I's relationship," he's gone. If one said "I'm going witchu," HE'S gone, too. I have my standards and grammar is one of them. In fact, in my online dating profile, I wrote being able to use pronouns correctly is a must. Talk about code and race and where someone lives ... I could care less. I just know what I look for in the men I date, and correct grammar is at the top. Eric is off my "want-to-date" list, and his background, race and upbringing has nothing to do "witchit."

I sincerely hope, for your sake, that the man of your dreams doesn't have a standard that his life partner know that couldn't care less is the proper grammatical structure to indicate that something doesn't matter to you.

Normally, I wouldn't be so pedantic but it's just an example of how we all likely have improper grammar ticks that are standard even though they're textbook wrong.

[catrice2]

1 hour ago, Alison said:

I apologize if my post came across as lecturing in tone; that was not my intent. The article I shared wasn't directed at you - I remember many posts after the season premiere lauding how articulate Rachel was, a word I can't recall ever being used to describe another lead in the entire franchise. It's just one example of coded language that kind of correlates to the Eric/grammar issue at hand. Frankly, as a white person, I don't think you (or me or anyone else who isn't a person of color) have any right to say "The code concept is wrong!" It exists because institutionalized racism exists. It exists because our country is embarrassingly racist. It doesn't seek to make white people "wrong," but rather inform them of subconscious biases they may have that have crept into their speech. I'm not claiming to be more enlightened than anyone, so again, apologies if that's how my post came off, but, as someone who tries to be a good ally, I think it's important to have these kinds of conversations, as uncomfortable as they can be.

You know I think the conversations are important too, but I don't know on a message board discussing a heavily edited and produced reality show when you don't know the posters, their backgrounds, experiences, intent, etc.  always leads to a productive conversation about this very sensitive, complex and uncomfortable topic.    So many times people feel attacked or defensive so the deeper conversation and level of understanding is lost. 

 As I expressed to my friend when she told me the franchise was getting the second person of color as a lead my fear was that certain things would be presented and misrepresented leading to even more division and hostile feelings between viewers about race and how certain groups are presented, as well as what it means to the franchise to have more diversity. Many people watch this show for escapism, and dealing with race is a reality for some us that we have to face every day so if the show is dealing with it there is no longer escapism. 

  Unfortunately the show chose to focus on race in a negative way, which turned many people off.   If there were more intelligent conversations that came up in the course of the show where people were shown expressing a genuine interest  about their differences (assuming they had a lot) and learning about each other in a non threatening way it would have been better received.  People also need to feel safe to ask questions  or make mistakes when they don't understand.  It is uncomfortable, but how we respond to those seeking understanding is important to advancing and encouraging open and productive conversations. I did not take offense from the link to the article, but I have been on the receiving end of it so it was nothing I have not heard before. 

I once started a new job in a very upscale corporate environment around the holidays.  My boss, thinking it would be a good idea for me to meet people, volunteered me for the holiday planning committee.  The theme was holidays around the world or something like that.  I was one of a handful of minorities in the entire company.  As they passed out different things, when they got to me and the chairperson said that I could be over Kwanza.  I remember saying, " and why is that?  What do you think I know about Kwanza?  I know nothing about Kwanza, we celebrate Christmas in my house."  Everybody looked so uncomfortable and years later I realized I could have approached that differently. 

ABC also exploited a lot of prejudices and triggers by showing words like " the race card," and "aggressive."   My understanding is that the season with the first minority lead was not a success.  Ratings wise I think people are so tuned to this show automatically that it will always pull the viewers, but critical reception is another thing.  

Unfortunately even in today's society television and movies are the only exposure that some people have to others that are different than they are.  They don't understand that a lot of it is manufactured and cannot accept that whatever they see is individual to that person and not a whole group, and I mean that as much as how Black people view White people as much as the other way around....or how we view Hispanic and Asian people.  That's why it annoys me so much that producers went out of their way to advance stereotypes. 

I think part of the problem is that many posters keep attributing the grammar concern to Eric individually from a couple of posts when all types of men and women in this franchise have had comments made about their grammar, pronunciation, etc.  I believe someone said "disingenuine" and got roasted for it.  Last season there were multiple posts about Raven and Nick  I'm wondering why it is bad to comment on one person but not on others? 

Edited July 12, 2017 by catrice2

[Losemynumber]

39 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

 For our  car trip back his mom packed us a cooler and she wrote his name on it. 

So as not to confuse the cooler she packed for you with your name on it? :D

[seacliffsal]

I think a real disservice was done either to or by Adam, just as it was for the 'tickle monster.'  I actually liked Adam a bit on this episode, but I think it's also the first time he was shown as a person rather than a joke with Adam Junior.  I think that the contestants who go for the attention grabber at the initial meet and greet by donning bizarre costumes (Alexa), riding a horse, or bring a ventriloquist dummy (Adam Jr.) are viewed differently by the bachelor or the bachelorette than they view others.  Adam tried to come off sincerely at the end, but he had already made his impression of who he was when he brought in the dummy.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

I personally hate when people add an S to franchise names when it makes no sense.  Marshalls, that requires an S.  KFC, you're not supposed to call it KFCs.  LOL.  But I know people who will talk like this.  Whatever. I hate when people say 'literally' when it doesn't make sense for the sentence.  Somebody on here took issue that I was using an abbreviation instead of the full word.  Everyone has their pet peeves.  I don't even know why I bring this up.  Everyone has their deal breakers.  None of these would be dealbreakers for me they're just annoying.  I guess I'm just making conversation.

I like how Eric was going to be on national television yet didn't care to change how he speaks.  George Springer, a baseball player who was interviewed to international audiences for the All Star Game last night, has a stutter and said he was going to speak publicly anyway, to make kids feel more comfortable being themselves.  It melted my heart!  Obviously, Eric doesn't have an impediment, I just find it interesting that so many people have an issue with how he speaks.  I don't really care about that because it's so superficial, not a dealbreaker to me personally.  But everyone is different.  To me he seemed real, very authentically himself.  Like Bryan doesn't seem real.  Dean seems real, even if that is nervously laughing and making jokes to not talk about real issues.   He's not putting manipulative sentences in place of what he's being asked to talk about.  He's just trying to avoid it for the time being and on international television.

I wonder if Rachel pushed Dean to go deeper because she actually wanted it, or because the show forced her.  Oh god it was so awkward.  They do not seem like a match at all.  But if I was on the show I'd want Dean , hell yeah!  LOL!  Next week he's going to show vulnerability and I know I'll fall for him even harder.

I personally did not find Adam attractive whatsoever (superficial, yes, but I definitely did not) but I think Matt was kind of cute.  And for me, there was no getting over Adam's dummy.  Just like I guess other people are not going to get over Eric's speaking patterns.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[kingshearte]

On 7/11/2017 at 9:15 AM, LennieBriscoe said:

CH = Confoederatio Helvetica, Latin name for Switzerland.

Thanks for this! I knew that CH was the code for Switzerland, but I've always wondered why (although obviously not quite hard enough to consult google).

Watch notwithstanding, my money's still on Peter. All the previews of "I don't know if he's ready!" just solidify that for me. I just feel like, if it were going to be Bryan, we'd have been presented with some reason why she might hesitate to pick him (other than simply "you seem too good to be true"). Nothing in the preview seemed to indicate any angst over Bryan, so I'm sticking with Peter. Did anyone else notice, though, that they showed at least one clip of Bryan with Rachel's family? I mean, it's not exactly a huge shock, but still, way to spoil yourself, show (although I guess we should count ourselves lucky that they haven't already announced the next Bachelor?).

I do not understand why they went to a Catholic mass for Dean's date. I get going to church of some kind, since we know it's important to her, but a Catholic mass seems like a super weird choice if you're not Catholic. Was it the only church in Geneva that was willing to be on TV in this context or what?

Also in weird choices, part of Peter's date. Helicopter? Great. Dog sledding? Great. Sitting in a snowbank with snow blowing everywhere? Um... OK?

Finally, my biggest annoyance of this episode was one of Rachel's coats. Consider this is a slightly ranty PSA for those of you who may not be aware. Often, when one purchases a garment with pleats or slits, there is a large X-shaped stitch at the bottom of the pleats/slits. This is intended to keep the garment properly flat during shipping, so the garment doesn't end up with stuff awkwardly creased. You're supposed to remove this stitch before you wear the garment. I've noticed that many many people in real life seem to be unaware of this, and run around with that stitch intact (and I often wonder if those people think their item is in fact damaged when that stitch eventually breaks, because, hello, it's not designed to withstand daily wear!). But I noticed that one of Rachel's coats appeared to have that stitch intact this week, and don't the leads on this show have stylists? Shouldn't that person, at least, understand something so basic? Any stylist who lets a client outside without taking care of that has no business calling themselves a stylist.

OK, I'm over it now. (I'm really not, but I'll pretend.)

[catrice2]

17 minutes ago, kingshearte said:

Thanks for this! I knew that CH was the code for Switzerland, but I've always wondered why (although obviously not quite hard enough to consult google).

Watch notwithstanding, my money's still on Peter. All the previews of "I don't know if he's ready!" just solidify that for me. I just feel like, if it were going to be Bryan, we'd have been presented with some reason why she might hesitate to pick him (other than simply "you seem too good to be true"). Nothing in the preview seemed to indicate any angst over Bryan, so I'm sticking with Peter. Did anyone else notice, though, that they showed at least one clip of Bryan with Rachel's family? I mean, it's not exactly a huge shock, but still, way to spoil yourself, show (although I guess we should count ourselves lucky that they haven't already announced the next Bachelor?).

I do not understand why they went to a Catholic mass for Dean's date. I get going to church of some kind, since we know it's important to her, but a Catholic mass seems like a super weird choice if you're not Catholic. Was it the only church in Geneva that was willing to be on TV in this context or what?

Also in weird choices, part of Peter's date. Helicopter? Great. Dog sledding? Great. Sitting in a snowbank with snow blowing everywhere? Um... OK?

Finally, my biggest annoyance of this episode was one of Rachel's coats. Consider this is a slightly ranty PSA for those of you who may not be aware. Often, when one purchases a garment with pleats or slits, there is a large X-shaped stitch at the bottom of the pleats/slits. This is intended to keep the garment properly flat during shipping, so the garment doesn't end up with stuff awkwardly creased. You're supposed to remove this stitch before you wear the garment. I've noticed that many many people in real life seem to be unaware of this, and run around with that stitch intact (and I often wonder if those people think their item is in fact damaged when that stitch eventually breaks, because, hello, it's not designed to withstand daily wear!). But I noticed that one of Rachel's coats appeared to have that stitch intact this week, and don't the leads on this show have stylists? Shouldn't that person, at least, understand something so basic? Any stylist who lets a client outside without taking care of that has no business calling themselves a stylist.

OK, I'm over it now. (I'm really not, but I'll pretend.)

Ha ha.....I have to admit that I never knew that was what it was for.  I am one of those people who was not removing the stitch, I confess!   When the stitch broke I did think I had torn the garment. This is hilarious!  I can't remember how or when I figured out the purpose and what I was supposed to do. 

 

 Maybe it was on loan and she was going to return it? 

Yes, Peter's date was confusing to me.  Could they not afford a chalet for them to sit in and have a talk? 

Edited July 12, 2017 by catrice2

[catrice2]

16 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I personally hate when people add an S to franchise names when it makes no sense.  Marshalls, that requires an S.  KFC, you're not supposed to call it KFCs.  LOL.  But I know people who will talk like this.  Whatever. I hate when people say 'literally' when it doesn't make sense for the sentence.  Somebody on here took issue that I was using an abbreviation instead of the full word.  Everyone has their pet peeves.  I don't even know why I bring this up.  Everyone has their deal breakers.  None of these would be dealbreakers for me they're just annoying.  I guess I'm just making conversation.

I like how Eric was going to be on national television yet didn't care to change how he speaks.  George Springer, a baseball player who was interviewed to international audiences for the All Star Game last night, has a stutter and said he was going to speak publicly anyway, to make kids feel more comfortable being themselves.  It melted my heart!  Obviously, Eric doesn't have an impediment, I just find it interesting that so many people have an issue with how he speaks.  I don't really care about that because it's so superficial, not a dealbreaker to me personally.  But everyone is different.  To me he seemed real, very authentically himself.  Like Bryan doesn't seem real.  Dean seems real, even if that is nervously laughing and making jokes to not talk about real issues.   He's not putting manipulative sentences in place of what he's being asked to talk about.  He's just trying to avoid it for the time being and on international television.

I wonder if Rachel pushed Dean to go deeper because she actually wanted it, or because the show forced her.  Oh god it was so awkward.  They do not seem like a match at all.  But if I was on the show I'd want Dean , hell yeah!  LOL!  Next week he's going to show vulnerability and I know I'll fall for him even harder.

I personally did not find Adam attractive whatsoever (superficial, yes, but I definitely did not) but I think Matt was kind of cute.  And for me, there was no getting over Adam's dummy.  Just like I guess other people are not going to get over Eric's speaking patterns.

The comments about a few words that Eric said were blown way out of proportion. As I said, I dated someone similar and it was not a deal breaker, but it was annoying....as you say a pet peeve.  I too think it is admirable to be as authentic as you can be on this show in this situation.  For a lot of these guys Rachel has been pulling them along so that they would have a better chance at Paradise  to meet her friends or other post show opportunities ....you won't get me to believe otherwise.  She probably already had them paired up in her mind as to whom she thought would make a good match. 

 Similar to how I believe Nick kept her because he knew they wanted her to be the next Bachelorette (including wrangling an I love you or I think I love you from her before he dumped her so it would be more dramatic and set her up nicely as the heartbroken Bachelorette here for another shot)  and they can deny that from now until the end of time and I still believe that. 

This show is superficial so people are going to comment on the superficial. 

[mostlylurking]

"Could care less"....another pet peeve!  Also "as per".  I didn't realize I was such a grammar snob! 

[Nikki55x]

Is Rachel so horny for Bryan that she cannot ask the freaking red flag question? Which is what did his mom say or do to the woman her cared so much for or expected from her that made her so freaked that she broke up with him because of his mom? Rachel what the hell type of lawyer are you?

[Palomar]

4 minutes ago, Nikki55x said:

Is Rachel so horny for Bryan that she cannot ask the freaking red flag question? Which is what did his mom say or do to the woman her cared so much for or expected from her that made her so freaked that she broke up with him because of his mom? Rachel what the hell type of lawyer are you?

Of course we might have gotten an edited conversation.  Maybe she did ask, but they wanted us to tune in next week with that question on our minds.

[TomGirl]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

[F]or me, there was no getting over Adam's dummy.

I don't know why, but for some reason that sentence makes me lmao!

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, JenE4 said:

You don't realize that is "racist" thinking even for people like myself who thinks I'm not racist. It's really eye-opening.

That's not what I was saying at all.  I do understand why it's insulting to call a black person articulate and I've never done it. I've known that for thirty years, it's not a brand new idea.  What I was saying was this; why was she linking me to that article to reinforce her idea that I shouldn't have criticized Eric's bad grammar?  To me the two things are not the same at all and even contradictory.  If it is condescending and patronizing (as I believe it is) to praise an African American for speaking well, isn't it equally condescending and patronizing to pretend not to notice when he speaks poorly, as though he shouldn't be held to the same high standards as white people?

I get that Eric's speech is a dialect. The Appalachian speech of the people I grew up with is also a dialect.  I just don't agree that if a way of speaking  is classed as a dialect  it is then exempt from standard rules of American English. 

   I personally, wouldn't want to marry someone who used a dialect that grated on my ears, and BTW in my opinion my area's hill country one is far worse than Eric's. It's my guess that  Rachel didn't hear much dialect and it may be something she wouldn't like in a husband.  On the other hand, maybe that's the way her family talks at home and it makes her feel comfortable.  All I'm doing is expressing my own opinion about what I would like, just as some people couldn't live with Bryan's cheekbones and yet  Rachel seems to like them.

[fib]

2 hours ago, kingshearte said:

I do not understand why they went to a Catholic mass for Dean's date. I get going to church of some kind, since we know it's important to her, but a Catholic mass seems like a super weird choice if you're not Catholic. Was it the only church in Geneva that was willing to be on TV in this context or what?

I assume it was Sunday so Rachel being religious wanted to go to church. Switzerland is heavily Catholic (40% according to Wikipedia), and that is the largest denomination in the country.  (If you think of Switzerlands location, Italians are heavily associated with Catholicism, and Switzerland has a LONG border with Italy)  Swiss Reformed is next most common, whose closest american analog is  probably Presbyterianism, though Swiss Reformed churches do exist in the US. Switzerland wouldnt have many common American denominations like Methodist or Baptist churches.  Those denominations have roots in European reform movements, but developed here in the US. 

Plus, there is rich history in catholicism, which Rachel, being a curious and intellectual person, might find fascinating. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by fib
I apparently spoke too soon.

[JenE4]

30 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

That's not what I was saying at all. 

JudyObscure, I just want to clarify that I meant "you" in the general sense, as in "one"--or, truly, myself. I know YOU aren't racist. I've "known" you on this board for a long time, and you've always been one of the most rational, intelligent, and dare I say articulate ;-) posters around--not to mention insightful and hilarious.

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

I'm not sure why black folks would feel uncomfortable speaking it, as our people weren't the ones who enslaved and exploited an entire race of people and are still perpetuating racism through coded language and behavior that penalizes and others people of color for their cultural expressions. I'm proud of my culture and I'm proud to be bidialectal. 

If anyone should feel shame and discomfort, it's people who have rigid ideas about how others should express themselves and are ignorant about what's actually incorrect and what's a product of racial biases. The downside of privilege is that it breeds ignorance. I would be ashamed of that, personally.

You know what I think perpetuates racism?  Rants like that, which claim a right to hate a huge group of people because, over a hundred years ago, a relatively small group of rich landowners did a terrible thing and some of them had pale skin that looks a little bit like the skin of that group you despise so much. It's like blaming all brown eyed people for what Hitler did because he had brown eyes. I don't get that. 

My ancestors were actually in Ireland being starved to death by their English landowners at that time, and yet when I lived in England it never occurred to me to hold the people I met accountable for what some of their ancestors did. For one thing, their ancestors were probably poor servants to the evil landowners in question, just like most whites in the old south were poor tenant farmers also being worked to death by the evil plantation owners.  The one percent of their day.

 I find it hard to fathom that you want me to feel ashamed of myself because of  my skin color and how it "breeds ignorance."  How far back do you want to take your "sins of the father" mentality?  Should I be angry at you because a thousand years ago some people who looked like you, cooked and ate some people who looked like me?  

The truth is that we all have African ancestors.  Some groups just migrated farther north to find food and became paler as they encountered less sun.  I don't think you need to be "ashamed" of anything but before you call other people ignorant  and  tell them they should be ashamed  you might want to figure out just who exactly you're talking to.

[JudyObscure]

3 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

JudyObscure, I just want to clarify that I meant "you" in the general sense, as in "one"--or, truly, myself. I know YOU aren't racist. I've "known" you on this board for a long time, and you've always been one of the most rational, intelligent, and dare I say articulate ;-) posters around--not to mention insightful and hilarious.

Oh thanks so much for saying that, JenE4.  I feel the same way about you!

In fact I like this whole crowd on the B'ette board, including RidetheMaverick who I'm vehemently arguing with at the moment.  I just get carried away too often and can't give it up and step away. For that I apologize to everyone.

[Nikki55x]

Wow I'm scrolling and scrolling and all I can see is talk about grammar. Dude this is the bachelorette does anyone have anything to say about you know the actual show. The picks? Repetitive and boring. Going to youtube for appropriate fluff tv, escapism responses.

[saber5055]

I dumped my Chinese boyfriend from Hong Kong because he made fun of how I spoke. He used very proper English with a British accent. I did learn from him, however, that it's WASH the car, not WORSH the car, a Midwestern pronunciation. I am deeply appreciative of him for that! And everyone here who objects to me writing "I could care less" ... I am NOT asking any of you out on a date, just to save us from breaking up when I say it again. Meanwhile, I was disappointed not to see AJ in that final limo ride of shame. That would have been so cool if he had a TH to say, in French, how Rachel made such a mistake sending AJ and A Senior home. That would have been a better ending clip than the dog-sled crotch shot and TMI poop discussion. YMMV, of course! It does seem to me that Rachel cries a river when she send a man home while none of the men seem to be all that upset about it. I find that curious. And Rachel does rock a toque, which covers her massive forehead. Then I can concentrate on her lashes with no forehead distraction.

[Negritude]

Just did a quick read through of this page and...this is why I was never one who wanted a Bachelor/ette of color, particularly a Black one, and I'm Black.  What is normally a silly, ridiculous, guilty pleasure that I come to this board to snark on along with all you fine folks, has become a sound off on race relations. Is it an important conversation to be had? Sure but there are better shows that are addressing it. 

There have always been people of color in the mix on this show since season 1,  but somehow having the object of affection be a POC has changed the entire dynamic. It's unfortunate and I saw it coming from a million miles away. I wouldn't be surprised if the ratings were down nor would I be surprised if we never saw a Black Bachelor/ette again.  Rachel is by far and away the best candidate they could have ever asked for and it's still falling flat and overly serious (and killing the tone of this board). I'll still peek my head in from time to time but damn y'all it ain't that deep, it's just The Bachelorette.

My apologies in advance if my grammar is not up to snuff for some of you (sheesh smh).

[fib]

Holy moly.  With all this talk about diction, I cant believe I forgot to mention how ludicrously bad Rachel was at pronouncing places names in French.  Considering French is considered one of the the most beautiful languages in the world (by people who have clearly never heard the Quebecois speak it ;-) ), it sure sounded like ?To me.  I kept picturing Joey when Pheobe was trying to teach him french phonetically: she would say, "Zhe ma pell" and he would repeat, "bloo dee blah".  

Did anyone else not the size of the GOBLET of wine she had on her Brian date? She literally had a large wine glass full to the brim.  And it looked like Brian had one too, but it appeared to be  water.  If that is how the show counts a drink, BIP's "two drinks per hour" will not be much impedidmwnt to drunken chicanery!

[jackjill89]

8 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

BEV is a valid dialect of English that is spoken by many African Americans. I have a master's degree and I speak it. All of my educated friends speak it. The difference between us and Eric is that we code switch and he doesn't appear to, at least not when he's  speaking. I'm sure he can write SAE just fine given that he graduated magma cum laude.

I'm not sure why black folks would feel uncomfortable speaking it, as our people weren't the ones who enslaved and exploited an entire race of people and are still perpetuating racism through coded language and behavior that penalizes and others people of color for their cultural expressions. I'm proud of my culture and I'm proud to be bidialectal. 

If anyone should feel shame and discomfort, it's people who have rigid ideas about how others should express themselves and are ignorant about what's actually incorrect and what's a product of racial biases. The downside of privilege is that it breeds ignorance. I would be ashamed of that, personally.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been appalled by what I have read on here with regards to language. 

I'm taking a linguistics course right now and one of the key things I've learned is that we need to be much more open to people's language identities. 

[violet and green]

On 7/12/2017 at 8:34 AM, comosedice said:

Yup. Dean mentioned it on Twitter and said he spilled coffee on it.

Ah, sweet. I figured the poor fellow wouldn't have a suit, and then I wondered if the shirt was even his (he must have been freezing in that shirt!)

I wish production had lashed out and brought all the men proper overcoats, that was painful to watch.

Otherwise I loved the lingering scenic and architectural shots of these last few European eps, the flowers and the yellow fields - I kept rewinding my recording and reviewing the prettiest parts. I thought Matt's reaction in particular, realising he was in France now, was lovely. Adam will be sorry with his edit, I think; reduced to his doll prop for the most part...

Sorry if this has been covered and I missed it, but can anyone remember the name of that adagio the small orchestra played in the date with Bryan? It's driving me nuts. Anyway, it made me cry.

Looking forward to hometowns, even more than usual!

[nlkm9]

On 7/11/2017 at 6:00 PM, yorklee2 said:

Thanks for posting. I don't understand why it wasn't shown either. Bryans' taking the watch off and doing the little twirl with it was a little smug and show-offy in my opinion. I really can't stand that type of behaviour. Not much humility there. 

I thought as she was buying it that other than Corrine's flashy clothes purchases for Nick last season I have never saw a lead purchase anything that expensive before. And it's surprising to me that the show would spring for it considering how cheap they can be. I mean she buys Anthony a cowboy hat and boots but I can't imagine they would be as expensive as that nice watch. Has anyone here ever noticed a expensive purchase like that before by a lead?

I remember as back as Aaron's season, he took Helene out shopping for a beautiful outfit and accessories. Didnt Chris Soules "give" Jade an expensive pair of earrings on a date?? I also remember on the same season Gwen got a beautiful Cinderella coach date....

[hyacinth]

27 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Sorry if this has been covered and I missed it, but can anyone remember the name of that adagio the small orchestra played in the date with Bryan? It's driving me nuts. Anyway, it made me cry.

If memory serves me correctly it was Bach's Suite No 3 in D major.     

Edited July 13, 2017 by hyacinth

[truthaboutluv]

1 minute ago, nlkm9 said:

I remember as back as Aaron's season, he took Helene out shopping for a beautiful outfit and accessories. Didnt Chris Soules "give" Jade an expensive pair of earrings on a date?? I also remember on the same season Gwen got a beautiful Cinderella coach date....

Yeah some seasons there have been some extravagant dates where the contestant got to keep something. I think what really stands out with the Rachel and Bryan situation is that it wasn't just that he got a fancy watch but they got matching watches. So as the lead she got a very pricey matching item to go along with one given to a contestant. 

[dleighg]

11 minutes ago, hyacinth said:

If memory serves me correctly it was Bach's Suite No 3 in D major.     

meant to look it up with Shazaam but didn't get around to it. Lovely.

[violet and green]

17 minutes ago, hyacinth said:

If memory serves me correctly it was Bach's Suite No 3 in D major.     

Yes, it is! Thank you, Hyacinth!

[waving feather]

A private orchestra is so much better than a private concert. Or in Dean's case, not a private concert. She really went all out for Bryan and chose the best date for him. 

[violet and green]

1 minute ago, waving feather said:

A private orchestra is so much better than a private concert. Or in Dean's case, not a private concert. She really went all out for Bryan and chose the best date for him. 

Why, why, why? Consolation prize? :)

I wish she'd given Dean the watch and the good date. Catholic Mass, are you for real?

[Kira53]

5 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I think a real disservice was done either to or by Adam, just as it was for the 'tickle monster.'  I actually liked Adam a bit on this episode, but I think it's also the first time he was shown as a person rather than a joke with Adam Junior.  I think that the contestants who go for the attention grabber at the initial meet and greet by donning bizarre costumes (Alexa), riding a horse, or bring a ventriloquist dummy (Adam Jr.) are viewed differently by the bachelor or the bachelorette than they view others.  Adam tried to come off sincerely at the end, but he had already made his impression of who he was when he brought in the dummy.  

The disservice that was done to Adam was the audiences impression of him even more than Rachel's impression of him. Rachel had the opportunity to speak to him and connect with him but the audience only saw what the producers wanted us to see. The fact that he was among the last six  bachelors was probably because Adam made a good impression upon her but we didn't see any of the interaction. Or at least Rachel had the impression was that Adam had a real interest in her and thought that they made a decent match. Unlike Will, Anthony, Diggy, Josiah, and even the wrestler who thought she would be great as a stepmom.   My impression was that these guys  didn't really have that much interest in Rachel as a mate.   The audience only experience of Adam was his bringing Adam Jr.  Rachel knew more but we didn't.   The same for the tickle monster. Rachel knew him as a physician but we just knew what the show told us.   The editing process hurt them with the public not Rachel.  This is why it's always risky to go on a reality show because the producers may have an intent to show you  in a way that isn't really who you are but who the narrative needs you today. I'm sure Adam and the unfortunate tickle monster we're pretty boring in their interactions. nice but not exciting and they went with the people who they cast for excitement and conflict.   I'm sure Adam and the other six guy that I can't remember his name were pretty shocked to see that they had no narrative the entire show.   

Edited July 13, 2017 by Kira53
I need to proof read and stop using an iPad.

[nutty1]

Kira53....I totally agree. It is a shame that so much time was devoted to Lee. I would much rather have gotten to know some of the guys more.

[LennieBriscoe]

Thank you, chocolatine, for the point about mathematics! No "vernacular" allowed! No "That there four-sided thing is called  a 'triangle' where I growed up." 

I'm looking forward to the HTVs (can I make that happen? :-P) for the humor potential. 

[LennieBriscoe]

I hope never to see the day when Ph.D.s in  linguistics declare "I" to be a perfectly fine object of a preposition and acceptable in the possessive form "I's"!

[HeyThere83]

Kinda seems to me like she really wants Peter, but is willing to go along with Bryan because he's so darn scripted and it's easier.

[yorklee2]

15 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Oh thanks so much for saying that, JenE4.  I feel the same way about you!

In fact I like this whole crowd on the B'ette board, including RidetheMaverick who I'm vehemently arguing with at the moment.  I just get carried away too often and can't give it up and step away. For that I apologize to everyone.

Thanks JudyObscure I like you too! I have to say that I too can get carried away and have oftentimes felt like a lone wolf in my attempting to clarify and uphold my views and stated reasons. And yes it can be hard to step away from. If you need to apologize then I certainly have needed to in my time on this board. But I don't think you have anything to apologize for.