S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Couver]

7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I must have totally blocked this out from last season.  Bran was marked by the Night King?  And Bran knows for sure what he did and what that means?

It was in one of his astral projections. The Night King saw him and touched him. That created the link. He was warned about it but of course did not listen. 

[blackwing]

In the Citadel library, what is the purpose of the curtain of chains covering every single one of the shelves?  Doesn't seem to have any functional purpose?  I thought maybe they had hooks on them and you could hook a book onto them so you wouldn't have to hold it, but that doesn't really make any sense.

[SoothingDave]

My understanding was that the Night King touching Bran allowed the Night King to locate Bran.  It also broke whatever spell kept the dead out of the magic tree-cave.

I didn't understand there to be any special magic preventing the Night King from passing through the Wall.  

[BitterApple]

There's spells protecting the Wall as well.

That's gonna be a bummer for Missandei if Greyworm is indeed castrated.  

[SoothingDave]

Thanks for clarifying on the Wall.  Built with lots of ice and magic, I guess.

I didn't think there was any question that the Unsullied had their testicles removed.  The question is whether there is a penis, or if they are like Varys (and Theon) and it's all been taken away.  

Remember how strange everyone thought it was in Mureen that Unsullied were going to brothels.  They're not supposed to have any interest in sex.  

[thegreathoo]

Season 6 was the best.  This opener was consistent.

i love Sandor's candor.

Sansa's got littlefinger.  The question is whether she wants her own army and kingdom.

Someone has to die in that storyline.

 

Im interested to see if Arya kills Cersei.

 

And then, if Euron sacks Deny's army, Deny will have to bargain, and Euron will betray Cersei, unless she's already dead at Arya's hands.

[Drumpf1737]

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And so the tension between Jon and Sansa begins! I can't wait to see where this goes! Jon is seriously underestimating her IMO. She is also correct to advise him to not underestimate Cersei. Jon's arrogance may prove to be his downfall. 

 

I'm glad Sansa has found her voice but I wish she'd be clearer making her points. "you don't have enough men" and "I've got back up for us" are not the same thing! It will be interesting to watch her evolve and push Jon. 

How long do we have to wait for a raven to come from Castle Black that they have Bran?

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

but we've only got seven to work with this summer, so less is more.

I agree totally, and I hate that I agree.  When I find myself counting episodes and using so-many-minutes to create scenarios in my head, damn, just damn.  

I would so much rather this season would have begun, leaving us in the lurch about 

• is this the last season?
• how fast are things going to happen?
• how much additional character development will there be?
• oh, look, new characters.  I wonder where they are going to lead the story line?
• why are so many deaths happening?  or is this just culling the herd for the purpose of wrapping up dangly story arcs?

Or is this just GRRM's odd version of the game of CLUE?

[hoosiermommy]

I don't see the Jon/Sansa thing as anything more than the acknowledgement from Jon that they need to appear united in front of their people.

When you have kids, you most assuredly will not agree with their other parent about how to handle things at all times. When that happens, you have a discussion "off line", behind closed doors, or after the kids go to bed.  In front of the kids, you absolutely show a united front or the kids will learn to play one parent against the other.

That is how I interpreted Jon's resistance.  He doesn't necessarily dislike the idea that Sansa has an opinion and it is different from his, but her disagreement with him, vocally and in the open, meant that even if he agreed with her, he wouldn't have been able to change his mind without looking weak. 

[Timetoread]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

Jon was looking at the big picture, Sansa was looking at the present situation.  Take the houses away from those families and give them to his friends, years later when those kids are grown they are resentful and vowing for revenge.  Better to forgive the families and garner loyalty now from those kids that will last a lifetime and more.

 

2 hours ago, Absurda said:

This made me laugh out loud!

So much this.  It's time for Jamie to leave:  Their children are dead, most of the kingdom is in open rebellion, you have no allies, Winter is here, the Dragon Queen is coming and the love of his life is a psychotic mass murderer.  Cercei won't listen to him and doesn't care what he thinks.  I love having him on my screen for purely superficial reasons (he's so pretty!) but the character is pretty pointless right now. 

ITA - if I remember correctly it was Robb beheading one of the Karstarks that made them turn on the Starks in the first place.  Jon needs to consolidate his power, guard the north and build allies.  Showing mercy to these kids will do that more readily than continuing their enmity and rebellion by disinheriting them.  He doesn't need that distraction.

Both Sansa and Jon are focused on the threat they've personally seen and disregarding the threat they haven't had to deal with.  In this case, though, I think Jon is right to disregard Cercei and focus on the WW.  Cercei has other problems to deal with closer to home, there's no way she can be a threat to the north at this point.  The WW have nothing else to do but cross the wall and rampage over the north.  They are the more immediate threat.  Sansa is just short sighted (as others have said) and stuck in the old way of thinking (destroy enemies, grab power and the throne, rule the kingdom) while Jon has no interest in any of that, he sees that if the WW aren't stopped, there will be no power or throne to seize.

I must have missed something in the narrative because hasn't this show shown time and time again the folly in assuming mercy will win you loyalty?   Those kids may already be resentful and plotting revenge because their traitorous parents were ALREADY executed.  I don't see where Sansa has been wrong yet.  Since when do people prefer seeing their enemies pardoned over being rewarded for their loyalty?  That's just dumb.  The men were agreeing with Sansa until Jon got all alpha and "shut up because women are stupid".  I haven't seen Jon be right yet either.  That said, where in the narrative did Sansa say or imply that Cersei is her mentor and hero?  What she said was that she learned a lot from Cersei.  And I'm sure she has. We often do learn a lot from our enemies.  She has learned just how disgusting a human soul can be.  She's learned about how strong she can be.  She also probably learned Cersei's weaknesses as well.  What has Jon learned, EVER?  How to get killed?  How to get others killed?  What has he done to even deserve the title King in the North other be born with Stark blood and a penis?  Every other thing he's done has been a disaster.  Including his encounter with the white walkers, in which everybody except him and his friends died.  His time at the Night's Watch ended up with mutiny and being killed.  His campaign against Ramsay failed as well.  I don't hate Jon but I must have missed the season when he became the wisest, most powerful, awesomest dude to ever exist who is beyond reproach.  I don't get why in any disagreement the masses always come down Team Jon, totally disregarding his track record.

I think the show is trying to tell us that brother and sister TOGETHER are quite formidable.  The show begins with the separation of the Starks.  When they come back together - Jon a warrior, Sansa a political operative, Arya an assassin, Bran a mage, and Ghost and Nymeria just being crazy cute and fuzzy - they will be a force to be reckoned with.

[BitterApple]

Hell, you'd think Olly stabbing Jon in the heart would've been enough of a lesson in not trusting children. 

[Absurda]

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I must have missed the season when he became the wisest, most powerful, awesomest dude to ever exist who is beyond reproach.

I don't recall anyone saying this.  ALL the characters (yes, Sansa included) have made miscalculations and mistakes.  Ultimately, Jon was right about the wildlings and the threat of the WW, even if no one believed him.  Sansa was wrong about trusting Little Finger and marrying Ramsey Bolton.  Jon was wrong to disregard hundreds of years of prejudice against wildlings and Sansa was right about needing more people to defeat Ramsey.  I just think when it comes to the largest threat and what to do with the "traitor" families Jon is right and Sansa is wrong.  I also think Jon was wrong to make these decisions without discussing with Sansa ahead of time and Sansa was wrong to publicly question him.  Not because he's man and she's woman but because they need to show unity.  I also think they need to have regular, closed-door, meetings between the two of them (with Davos) to put all the cards on the table and move forward.  Sansa has been keeping things from Jon and it's going to get them into trouble. 

[Macbeth]

No Cersei after listening to Twyin for 40 years you haven't learned a damn thing. Now Tyrion's defection to Dany is on Twyin, but the Tyrells rebellion is all your fault.

I don't know if Dragonstone had been looted.  It always looked pretty bare when Stannis was there.  If there was anything of value - Stannis would have used it in his war effort (or Bravos came to get what they could after they realized Stannis was never paying back that loan).

That throne room looks like it could easily rival the KL throne room.  Stannis likes things dark and gloomy - I think all it needs is some light.

I did enjoy Sam's montage.  It made me laugh.  I liked the scene at the end where he is cleaning out a chamber pot - and the look on his face is "My nausea is under control - Yes" and then it wasn't.

 

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Wait, what?  Why is 

  Hide contents

Spoiler

Bran the most clueless Stark?  He's the three-eyed raven.  He can see the past and future and knows all about the White Walkers - also, how is he the Night Prince's key?

 

Pure speculation on my part, based on the mark the Night Prince has left on him.  I have stayed away from the spoiler page as you can almost get a run down of what is going to happen minute by minute.  I learned about what would happen during the Battle of the Bastards well before it aired and learned my lesson,

[Macbeth]

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I must have totally blocked this out from last season.  Bran was marked by the Night King?  And Bran knows for sure what he did and what that means?

I don't think he does.  The visions are coming so fast and furious he is having trouble sorting them out.

[Timetoread]

13 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I don't recall anyone saying this.  ALL the characters (yes, Sansa included) have made miscalculations and mistakes.  Ultimately, Jon was right about the wildlings and the threat of the WW, even if no one believed him.  Sansa was wrong about trusting Little Finger and marrying Ramsey Bolton.  Jon was wrong to disregard hundreds of years of prejudice against wildlings and Sansa was right about needing more people to defeat Ramsey.  I just think when it comes to the largest threat and what to do with the "traitor" families Jon is right and Sansa is wrong.  I also think Jon was wrong to make these decisions without discussing with Sansa ahead of time and Sansa was wrong to publicly question him.  Not because he's man and she's woman but because they need to show unity.  I also think they need to have regular, closed-door, meetings between the two of them (with Davos) to put all the cards on the table and move forward.  Sansa has been keeping things from Jon and it's going to get them into trouble. 

I find this a bit disingenuous.  (Not at you specifically, of course, but of this general line of thought)  First of all, was this not a discussion?  Didn't the little girl Mormont talk down the big man she disagreed with before that?  But when Sansa says something to her brother, she's wrong, wrong, wrong and turning into Cersei and such.  Now let's look at a different situation when the one in charge making proclamations was Dany - a woman.  Jorah and Daario spoke up in disagreement.  She shut them down.  This same board couldn't criticize her enough.  She was getting too big for her britches.  She was arrogant.  She wouldn't listen to the council of those wise, seasoned men at her side.  She was becoming "Mad" like her father.  No calls for unity then.  There is indeed a double standard and it is indeed because Sansa is female and Jon is male.  Same family but he counts more.  Let's imagine that it was Rob saying something and Jon spoke up but was shut down in the interest of "unity", I imagine the board would be on fire about how Jon should be listened to because he knows things too and Rob's not always right and he shouldn't be a dictator.  The bottom line is that society - today's society - STILL believes that a woman has no place in a role of leadership.  Sansa has been an inside agent in King's Landing for YEARS.  If she were male, they would ALL look to her to lead them against the Lannisters.  But because she is female, she should shut up, look down, and let the men decide her fate.

[Timetoread]

42 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I also think they need to have regular, closed-door, meetings between the two of them (with Davos) to put all the cards on the table and move forward.  Sansa has been keeping things from Jon and it's going to get them into trouble. 

She tried.  He wasn't having it.  He doesn't listen to her.  All he hears is whether or not she believes in him, not what she has to say. [Like most men]  *Runs real fast out the room before the tomatoes get me!*

[Daisy]

6 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

I think the Jon/Sansa disagreement and later their private discussion shows why Jon inspires loyalty and Sansa may not. This idea that Ned was a big dummy and Cersei is a genius at the game fails to take into account that Cersei is terrible and creates more enemies than allies. She achieved what she thinks is ultimate power, but it will never last, because nobody is loyal to her. Ned ruled the North for twenty years and was beloved, so much so that the North still respects him. Sansa may have learned how to scheme from the best, but as a leader, she couldn't have had worse mentors. 

And the thing is, Ned wasn't a dummy. Ever. 
I think (well no I know) he just underestimated Cersei. In Ned's world - he was going to do everything with Justice and Honour and the Right Thing. Which was "okay you did a nasty bad thing, your children isn't Robert's, I want you to go to Casterly Rock or wherever you feel safe, because I have to as his friend/Hand of the King tell him the truth, but i don't want blood on his hands (or mine)" which. for the most part. good on Ned. 

He didn't account for Cersei being all screw you, Stark, capturing him and her psycho son killing him. But he wasn't stupid. Naive maybe, but not stupid. 

I think Jon's experiences will make him less naive (now, i mean naivety and Stark Honour is what got him Killed), but for the most part he will always have more people loyal to him than grumpy at him. 

Sansa does have this low burn on her, and Jon's statement is making me curious what it's about. 

[meep.meep]

I agree, but you need to pick your moments.  And in the middle of Jon's "rally round the flag" meeting, might not have been the best time for her to bring these things up.

Does Jon even realize that Sansa saved his sorry butt in the battle against Ramsey?  Against all their plans, he headed out impetuously, the rest of them followed and if the Knights of the Vale hadn't shown up, they would have all been slaughtered in the mud. 

I must be the only one, but I'm getting really sick of little Lady Mormont.  

[BitterApple]

1 minute ago, meep.meep said:

 

I must be the only one, but I'm getting really sick of little Lady Mormont.  

Ugh, you and me both! They're trying to turn her into some kind of feminist hero, but it's getting really annoying. She contributed a whopping 62 men to the BOTB. Her House is bush league compared to the others. The men deferring to her like that doesn't ring true to me. 

[Calamity Jane]

Kind of a side note - but how wonderful was it to see Arya smile a genuine smile and even giggle a little in that scene with the Lannister soldiers?  I hadn't thought of it, but I don't think we've seen her seem relaxed like that since early in Season 1.  The context was not all innocent - she had just said she was going to KL to kill the queen - but for the first time in forever she looked like a child, not burdened just then with all the hates and worries of a tormented life.  

[taanja]

20 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Since I don't know who Ed Sheeran is, I wasn't distracted.

 

Thank you! I have no clue who he is/was/wants to be. I figured he was just some baby-faced soldier in a group of strangely nice soldiers. That is why I was waiting for something horrible to happen in that scene. And the way the camera kept panning to his face? I was sure he was going to die any moment in some horrible way. Or that he was going to do some horrible thing to Arya and she was going to have to kill him and then---! Kill them all!

[Timetoread]

4 minutes ago, taanja said:

I have no clue who he is/was/wants to be.

He was doing what he does.  He's a singer.

[Absurda]

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Sansa has been an inside agent in King's Landing for YEARS.  If she were male, they would ALL look to her to lead them against the Lannisters.  But because she is female, she should shut up, look down, and let the men decide her fate.

Jon isn't looking to fight the Lannisters, he's looking to fight the WW.  He didn't take Winterfell back as a precursor to war with Cersei, he took it back as a stronghold against the WW.  He and Sansa are talking at each other about completely different things.  Sansa's not paying much attention to him about the WW, either.  She's completely focused on Cersei.  It's like Jon's talking about paying the mortgage and Sansa is talking about fixing the roof.  Both are important but one is more urgent than the other. 

The women are starting to come into their own on the show (all the most important leaders are women now) but it would be unrealistic if suddenly all the men on the show accepted it without a single thought.   I agree, Jon was only named king of the north because he is male and a war leader, of course the only reason people assumed it would be Sansa is because she's a legitimate Stark.  I don't agree that he disregards Sansa because she's a woman, but because (in his eyes) she's focused on the wrong thing.  They are not on the same page and are both convinced they are right.  I just agree with Jon that the WW are the bigger threat at the moment. 

 

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Thank you! I have no clue who he is/was/wants to be. I figured he was just some baby-faced soldier in a group of strangely nice soldiers. That is why I was waiting for something horrible to happen in that scene. And the way the camera kept panning to his face? I was sure he was going to die any moment in some horrible way. Or that he was going to do some horrible thing to Arya and she was going to have to kill him and then---! Kill them all!

I know who Ed Sheeran is (I hear his music on the radio all the time) but don't know his face so I had no idea who he was, either.  I kept waiting for them to try to do something awful to Arya and was relieved that they were just nice people.  Good to know there are still a few of those in Westeros.

[taanja]

15 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Regarding Euron's intended gift, I think the one thing Cersei would want above all else is Tyrion's head on a stick. Or as someone upthread posted, "Tyrion Alive". After all, he is "The Gift". Remember that previous episode in which he was called "The Gift"?

 

He's alive because he saved Sansa and John's life. John may not think about it. But Sansa realizes she owes him a debt she will be hard pressed to ever repay. But what does he want? Sansa said, "I know exactly what he wants". What would that be? To marry her? Surely it wouldn't be just to have sex with her. That would be pretty ridiculous for a whoremaster.

I think Urine's gift will be a dragon.

Little Finger told Sansa last season--- whenever he pictures anything in his mind-- he pictures the end-- with HIM-- on the iron throne... and Sansa by his side. The Sansa by his side was said (IMO) as an after thought-- like oh yeah I suppose I should include you in my little day dream seeing how I am using you as a means to an end.

Little Finger wants to sit on the iron throne. That has been his motivation the entire series.

Edited July 18, 2017 by taanja
Spelling matters

[Luckylyn]

9 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Jon isn't looking to fight the Lannisters, he's looking to fight the WW.  He didn't take Winterfell back as a precursor to war with Cersei, he took it back as a stronghold against the WW.  He and Sansa are talking at each other about completely different things.  Sansa's not paying much attention to him about the WW, either.  She's completely focused on Cersei.  It's like Jon's talking about paying the mortgage and Sansa is talking about fixing the roof.  Both are important but one is more urgent than the other.

That's the big issue.  Jon and Sansa are fixating on two different but important enemies (White Walkers and Cersei).   Their experiences have influence who each think is the more dangerous threat.   From Jon is focused on uniting everyone he can to battle the White Walkers while Sansa is fixated on her and Jon's survival because Cersei is the type to ruthlessly go after them.   Sansa's thinking is Stark-centric and Jon's is Kingdom-centric.  In the end the White Walkers could eliminate everyone and so I view them as the larger threat.  Still if Jon dies because of Cersei's machinations than that hurts the cause to win against the White Walkers because Jon is the person pushing hardest in the fight.  Meanwhile there is only so much resources and so strategic decisions have to be made about who to go after and how.   Both Jon and Sansa have made valid points.  In the end, it's on Jon's shoulders because he was made king which means the credit for the good and the blame for the bad that could happen will fall on him.

[SoSueMe]

20 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Since I don't know who Ed Sheeran is, I wasn't distracted.

 

 

31 minutes ago, taanja said:

Thank you! I have no clue who he is/was/wants to be. I figured he was just some baby-faced soldier in a group of strangely nice soldiers. That is why I was waiting for something horrible to happen in that scene. And the way the camera kept panning to his face? I was sure he was going to die any moment in some horrible way. Or that he was going to do some horrible thing to Arya and she was going to have to kill him and then---! Kill them all!

I've heard his name but that's all. Not my generation I guess. I did notice him in the scene and for a moment I thought that maybe Steve Zahn had somehow wandered into GoT. 

So, those soldiers were part of the Lannisters' army? And Arya just stated she was on her way to kill Cersei? Maybe I've got it wrong but doesn't that seem a little awkward or aren't the soldiers supposed to be all that loyal? 

[Calamity Jane]

8 minutes ago, taanja said:

I think Urine's gift will be a dragon.

Little Finger told Sansa last season--- whenever he pictures anything in his mind-- he pictures the end-- with HIM-- on the iron throne... and Sansa by his side. The Sansa by his side was said (IMO) as an after thought-- like oh yeah I suppose I should include you in my little day dream seeing how I am using you as a means to and end.

Little Finger wants to sit on the iron throne. That has been his motivation the entire series.

Yes, he made it crystal clear what it is he wants.  In the last episode of Season 6, he said something to Sansa like, "You know what I want," and she responded, "I was wrong."  She knew he wanted her, but his marrying her off to Ramsay confused her on that score.  Then he spelled out his vision of taking the throne. No need to guess at all, he wants the Iron Throne and has always worked towards that goal.  If you go back to the beginning, he and Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn, which started things; then he and Olenna poisoned Joffrey to move things along; and by then he had his plan hatched to make Sansa Wardeness of the North, to help him along with his plans.  He's been behind much of the bad stuff that happened, always working to put himself on that ugly throne.  

[taanja]

8 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Ditto comments upthread, I could've done without watching Sam deal with those chamber pots for what seemed like 30 minutes. But at least his drudgery may have finally paid off.

 

It wasn't just the chamber pots-- it was the fact that the soup they all consumed looked exactly like the shit in the chamber pots. I thought the whole thing was brilliant. The disgust-- the tedium-- the absolute horror of that duty day in day out. Sam is an important character. Remember he wanted SO much to be a Maester? Well Sammy boy-- be careful what you wish for-- you just may get it!

 

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

 I must be the only one, but I'm getting really sick of little Lady Mormont.  

Not the only one. I haven't really warmed her -- mainly because precocious children on TV shows leave me cold.

[Kbilly]

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Bran was marked by the Night King?  And Bran knows for sure what he did and what that means?

Yeah he knows what it means because the tree guy told him when they came out of their vision---He asked did he touch you? And Bran had the mark on his arm like freezer burn. And then....knowing that the Night King was coming they decided to just la-ti-da worg some more and got freaking Hodor and a Dyerwolf killed. Dumb Bran.

I heard some speculation that Euron could bring Cersei Gendry as his gift. But this was overheard by someone who also said "Ed Shireen the country singer" had a cameo. PS that cameo was really annoying. I guess I wouldn't have minded if he just sat there but I didn't like that he got dialogue.

I loved the top knot-man bun snark from the Hound.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Kbilly

[BitterApple]

I think if they'd been more subtle with the camera work, the Ed Sheeran cameo wouldn't have grated, however with the lingering close-ups, it was like "ta-da!!! Ed Sheeran, folks!!!". It was way too in-your-face. It took the audience away from the scene and back into 21st century pop culture. When I rewatched the episode today, the effect wasn't as bad, but still not something I ever want to see on this show again.

Edited July 18, 2017 by BitterApple

[enoughcats]

A Hollywood Reporter interview with Samwell  indicated that his poop and soup drudgery was just he and the director, shooting it over and  over for five days.  Where were the rest of the crew?  Off having fun at the Emmy's.  That might explain why it was so lengthy, perhaps the oddest reward for a job done to the director's satisfaction.

[paigow]

12 hours ago, Drogo said:

Yes- he may be halfway made of stone now but his voice is still like sexy garlic butter.

Dude...too many episodes of Masterchef for you....

29 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

I loved the top knot-man bun snark from the Hound.

Wait till he sees King Snow....

[paigow]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Ugh, you and me both! They're trying to turn her into some kind of feminist hero, but it's getting really annoying. She contributed a whopping 62 men to the BOTB. Her House is bush league compared to the others. The men deferring to her like that doesn't ring true to me. 

She captured the moral / loyalty high ground and the other houses know it...If Glover had agreed first, young Lady Mormont would not wield so much influence...

[MisterBluxom]

In listening to the debate about John & Sansa vs Cersei, I think I know the answer.

Cersei can't win because she is crazy and eventually she will do something so crazy that it will destroy her as well as everything and everyone she needs to maintain any power.

Jon and Sansa can't win because they don't really trust each other and they don't tell each other important things the other one needs to know.

So in the struggle between Jon & Sansa vs Cersei, neither one will win. Ultimately Dinarys (sp?) will win.

But then, one day, a strange alien craft will land and some humans (from planet Earth) will emerge and they will over-populate the planet and over-consume all the resources and poison the environment with all their deadly gasoline fumes and other toxics and so the bottom line will be ....

No one will win. Everyone will lose.

 

Sorry. But I just watched The Big Lebowski too and I'm a Nihilist.

BTW ... the guy who plays the laughing fool on the phone who is a friend of Maude Lebowski? That actor is David Thewlis who also plays V. M. Varga (albeit 20 years later) on Fargo.

[riley702]

23 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

If Bran goes to Winterfell, Baelish is so screwed.  

Why? Because he'll bring the Winter King with him? He may well end up there, anyway.

 

3 hours ago, SoSueMe said:

So, those soldiers were part of the Lannisters' army? And Arya just stated she was on her way to kill Cersei? Maybe I've got it wrong but doesn't that seem a little awkward or aren't the soldiers supposed to be all that loyal? 

I thought at first it was a challenge of sorts, by Arya. Kind of like, if there's going to be violence, let me initiate it, while they're off-guard. Since she'd been eying where their weapons were just prior to that. But maybe she meant it to be taken as a joke all along. They wouldn't be expecting a girl ("Are you old enough to drink?"*) to be an assassin and to plainly state her intentions like that - especially to them. At most, they'd think she was dodging the question about why she was going to King's Landing.

*Since when has this universe even suggested there's a drinking age in place? That was a clunky line.

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Wait till he sees King Snow....

I thought the snark was directed at him trying to hide his baldness with the man-bun, rather than the man-bun itself. "You bald c***!"

Edited July 18, 2017 by riley702

[candall]

17 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

...He's alive because he saved Sansa and John's life. John may not think about it. But Sansa realizes she owes him a debt she will be hard pressed to ever repay. But what does he want? Sansa said, "I know exactly what he wants". What would that be? To marry her? Surely it wouldn't be just to have sex with her. That would be pretty ridiculous for a whoremaster.

I love Littlefinger's brand of silky villainy and I thought his best monologue of the series was his passionate description to Sansa that every single move he makes is to further his vision of himself on the Iron Throne.  Agree that "with you by my side" isn't a dealbreaker for him.

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 ... Given the "previouslies" I take it that the Hound (and Arya) at one point ran into the father and son whose cabin he arrived at in this episode? And he robbed them or something? I don't recall that scene at all - it was too long ago, so the whole subplot was lost on me and lacked any emotional punch.  ...

 

Ah!  I just watched this yesterday.  The farmer was kind to The Hound and Arya, taking them in and giving them dinner.  He offered The Hound "honest wages for honest work," but The Hound stole the farmer's little bag of coins and left in the night, dragging Arya along.  He tells her that the farmer and his daughter won't be needing the silver coins because they'll be dead by winter.  (Arya steals the bag from The Hound later, when he's begging her to kill him.)

8 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I must have totally blocked this out from last season.  Bran was marked by the Night King?  And Bran knows for sure what he did and what that means?

I remember we were all rolling our eyes last year because the TER hadn't mentioned that small crucial detail to Bran earlier. (Bran was on an unauthorized time trip and freaked out because the WWs could see him.  Then the WW King? Prince? grabbed his arm and Bran morphed back to the underground lair, where the TER said, "Oh no!  You didn't let him touch you, did you?!?")

******************

First I got the broadcast time wrong, then I fell asleep on the couch, ultimately watching long stretches of Sam gagging over those damn chamber pots TWICE before I saw any other portions of the episode.  I thought, "I did not wait all f****** year for this."  Arya's Revenge made everything okay, though.

Except I'm not sure it's kosher for Arya to be able to "become" any person on the face of the earth.  (Bit of a cheat in Mission Impossible as well.)  Would you even need any fine assassin skills if you could do that?

[CletusMusashi]

15 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I agree with everyone who was a little incredulous over Dragonstone being unoccupied. I guess they didn't want to ruin Dany's moment by scenes of the Unsullied tossing out squatters.

Whoever was left there dusting the place probably dove into the sea and starting swimmimg like hell as soon as they saw three giant dragons.

Maybe while they're in the water they'll meet Gendry.

[operakatz]

11 hours ago, Fairlily26 said:

 I never was clear, is he a eunuch or just castrated? I really really wanted him and Missandei to hook up. They are both SO freaking gorgeous!!! 

 

10 hours ago, Shermie said:

Yes, Cersei is crazy. She's the Mad Queen. At 40, she could probably have another child but Jaime could father the Lannister dynasty with a young bride. As far as a gift, I'd agree that Tyrion's head on a spike and/or Sansa's head on a spike would be Cersei's favourite gifts.

This is about Grey Worm. Depends on your definition of eunuch, since it could be the same thing depending on culture. It could mean being castrated, or it could mean being celibate by choice.

And "just castrated" makes it sound less physically detrimental than being a eunuch, although it's likely more. At least a eunuch, in the celibate sense, can undo his choice. Castration means no testicles, so no arousal and definitely no children.

The Citadel is pretty much the GoT version of a medical school, so Jorah either went there himself or someone brought him. Makes a lot of sense.

The complaints about the 90-second montage of Sam's poop and soup drudgery are amusing because if they showed him doing a scut job or two and then studying the tomes, some would complain that he moved up the ranks much too quickly. Although I'm interested in the Hound's redemption arc, I thought of all the scenes, that one went on too long.

Castration would automatically make him a eunoch. The full monty style of castration (removing full genitalia) was mostly a thing only in China and Vietnam. In most other cultures, it was typically removal of the testicles. Sometimes as Shermie pointed out, the term would refer to celibate or impotent males as well. 

[Lady S.]

12 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

My understanding was that the Night King touching Bran allowed the Night King to locate Bran.  It also broke whatever spell kept the dead out of the magic tree-cave.

I didn't understand there to be any special magic preventing the Night King from passing through the Wall.  

What Benjen said, iirc, was that the Wall's magic kept dead things from passing through of their own accord, which was why he couldn't go with them. That would apply to the wights but I'm not sure about the Night King and the other White Walkers, since I don't think they ever really died. (We've seen the Night King make a WW from a live Crasterling and the CotF make the Night King from a living man.) I'm also not sure what else other people expect Bran/Meera to do, just stay out there and wait for the army of the dead to kill them too? People are so busy blaming Bran for Hodor's death, they ignore that if Bran (and poor Meera) die like that then Hodor's death, and Summer's, and the CotF's, and the older 3ER's, and Jojen's would all have been for nothing. Bran isn't still around just because of any hypothetical importance of the Night King's mark. His sl has been frustrating, underdeveloped to the point of feeling half-assed at times, but he has been talked up as some kind of Chosen One since at least s3 when Jojen found him. Not to mention that Benjen clearly intended them to cross that tunnel if he felt the need to explain that he couldn't be with them there. (And if that's not what he meant then he's just a huge asshole for taking his horse and leaving Meera to drag Bran on her own again.) And even if I'm wrong and Bran does destroy the magic in the Wall, well it has to be breached at some point to advance the ultimate plot of the living vs. their greatest enemy, or else Jon and Sam don't even need to be making all these preparations on the safe side of the Wall.

 

8 hours ago, Daisy said:

And the thing is, Ned wasn't a dummy. Ever. 
I think (well no I know) he just underestimated Cersei.

I assume Ned's underestimating Cersei had something of the same benevolent sexism which led him never to curse in front of his girls. No way in hell he'd have made the same offer to Jaime imo, because he'd know that a man would protect his children and the rest of his family by fighting his enemies, not fleeing them. That would be both manly and dutiful in a family way, but he took it for granted that a woman should jump at the chance to take her kids and flee. It never occurred to him that Cersei (and Lancel) could kill Robert without Jaime or even a sword. 

Quote

I'm terrible with remembering what happened in past seasons, but did I hear Sam correctly last night, that Stannis already told him there was dragon glass under Dragonstone?  Did he forget that incredibly crucial piece of info until just now??  That didn't make any sense to me.

Sam didn't finish the sentence but his next words were along the lines of "but I didn't realize--". I think it's possible he thought Stannis just meant they had some supply at Dragonstone (Jon's scene implies it isn't as scarce as Valyrian steel) but not a whole mountain of it to mine. Here's the scene in question:

 

I did think it was a bit much that they had two reminders of the Targs' connection to Dragonstone in the previouslies even though there were two more references in the ep itself before Dany arrived there. (But it was nice to confirm my suspicions that Arya knew when she slit Walder's throat that her mother was killed the same way. She must have really done her homework in her 7-13 disguised at the Twins to even know she had a murdered sister-in-law, so I can believe that all the Frey men she killed were complicit in the Red Wedding.)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

17 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

When Cersei was walking on that map and discussing all the enemies around her, it was remarkable how little self awareness she showed since she's responsible for most of those enemies.  So much suffering has occurred because Cersei cheated on her husband with her brother, and choose to use birth control with her husband and conceive illegitimate heirs with her brother.   Cersei treated the Tyrells as an enemy and never recognized how much value they were as allies and now the last of the Tyrells will use their resources to support Cersei's enemy.  Dorne is out for her destruction because Cersei was so focused on killing Tyrion that she didn't consider the ramifications of Oberyn's death.  The situation with the Starks is more complicated because Joffery and Tywin's actions played a huge part in that conflict.   Still if Cersei's children had been legitimate Baratheons Ned would still be alive and the North still allies of the Lannisters.  Cersei never sees the big picture to what future consequences could come from her actions.  She sees only what she views as an immediate threat and uses petty and deadly means to eliminate those she hates without taking time to consider what the ramifications will be.  She's all about temporary victories that ultimately lead to worse problems for her later.  She never seems to learn from her errors.  .Jaime isn't innocent either since he was a willing participant in an affair with Cersei even though he knew the risks. 

 

16 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

I think the Jon/Sansa disagreement and later their private discussion shows why Jon inspires loyalty and Sansa may not. This idea that Ned was a big dummy and Cersei is a genius at the game fails to take into account that Cersei is terrible and creates more enemies than allies. She achieved what she thinks is ultimate power, but it will never last, because nobody is loyal to her. Ned ruled the North for twenty years and was beloved, so much so that the North still respects him. Sansa may have learned how to scheme from the best, but as a leader, she couldn't have had worse mentors. 

Cersei reminds me of Niklaus on The Originals - both characters are always going on and on about how they're beset by enemies on all sides and how they need to protect their families from pending attacks, but in reality they are the architects of their own misery because their actions are what directly caused their enemies to become their enemies in the first place. When you fuck over other people, you can't expect to just get away with it. Yet these two always act like they've been sweet innocent little doves who were unjustly attacked for no reason. To be fair, Klaus is far pettier than Cersei is. He once murdered someone at an inn for coughing too loudly. He killed families just for fun. But like Cersei, he thinks he's untouchable and that he can get away with meting out whatever punishment he deems appropriate without any blowback. And when retribution comes, like Cersei he acts belligerent and offended, painting himself as the victim as if he didn't have this shit coming.

9 hours ago, Daisy said:

And the thing is, Ned wasn't a dummy. Ever. 
I think (well no I know) he just underestimated Cersei. In Ned's world - he was going to do everything with Justice and Honour and the Right Thing. Which was "okay you did a nasty bad thing, your children isn't Robert's, I want you to go to Casterly Rock or wherever you feel safe, because I have to as his friend/Hand of the King tell him the truth, but i don't want blood on his hands (or mine)" which. for the most part. good on Ned. 

He didn't account for Cersei being all screw you, Stark, capturing him and her psycho son killing him. But he wasn't stupid. Naive maybe, but not stupid. 

I think Jon's experiences will make him less naive (now, i mean naivety and Stark Honour is what got him Killed), but for the most part he will always have more people loyal to him than grumpy at him.

One thing to keep in mind is that people tend to assume that everyone else is like them. Honest people assume that other people are also honest. Sneaky liars assume that everyone else is scheming and lying. And unfortunately for people like Ned and Jon, they assume that justice will prevail because everyone else has the same sense of honor that they do, which is not true AT ALL. Neither Ned nor Jon would ever do any of the things that Cersei has done, which is exactly why they are so blindsided when they get stabbed in the back.

Quote

What Little Finger wants most is to be King. 

Or as Margaery would say, he wants to be THE King. I can only imagine what a stylish but ruthless pair Margaery and Littlefinger would have been, ruling with an iron fist while looking fabulously chic.

[halkatla]

This was a fantastically enjoyable episode, imo the best from the start. Everyone was accomplishing a lot, even the villains, and there wasn´t anything negative really. Well, maybe a bit too long was spent on a couple of scenes, but still no biggie.

[Timetoread]

10 hours ago, Absurda said:

They are not on the same page and are both convinced they are right.  I just agree with Jon that the WW are the bigger threat at the moment. 

Unless Cersei shows up at his door tomorrow and depletes most of his army before the WW arrive.  They have been coming since the first season but we are not getting a good timeline as to their ETA or what they are waiting for.

The thing is that they are BOTH right.  The WW are a threat that has to be addressed. But so is the Lannister army. Jon and the North will never defeat the WW alone.  Jon couldn't even defeat Ramsay alone.  He HAS to move South and gather more forces.  Doing that may require defeating Cersei herself and taking control of her army to fight WW.  But if Jon keeps refusing to see his sister as an asset because she has a vagina, maybe she should just let him die next time.  I know I would.  I wouldn't tell him a damn thing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

What Benjen said, iirc, was that the Wall's magic kept dead things from passing through of their own accord, which was why he couldn't go with them. That would apply to the wights but I'm not sure about the Night King and the other White Walkers, since I don't think they ever really died. (We've seen the Night King make a WW from a live Crasterling and the CotF make the Night King from a living man.) I'm also not sure what else other people expect Bran/Meera to do, just stay out there and wait for the army of the dead to kill them too? People are so busy blaming Bran for Hodor's death, they ignore that if Bran (and poor Meera) die like that then Hodor's death, and Summer's, and the CotF's, and the older 3ER's, and Jojen's would all have been for nothing. Bran isn't still around just because of any hypothetical importance of the Night King's mark. His sl has been frustrating, underdeveloped to the point of feeling half-assed at times, but he has been talked up as some kind of Chosen One since at least s3 when Jojen found him. Not to mention that Benjen clearly intended them to cross that tunnel if he felt the need to explain that he couldn't be with them there. (And if that's not what he meant then he's just a huge asshole for taking his horse and leaving Meera to drag Bran on her own again.) And even if I'm wrong and Bran does destroy the magic in the Wall, well it has to be breached at some point to advance the ultimate plot of the living vs. their greatest enemy, or else Jon and Sam don't even need to be making all these preparations on the safe side of the Wall.

 

One of the things I had wondered about was how Bran and Meera managed to escape the Army of the Dead. Yes, Hodor's sacrifice was noble and all that. But really, no matter how long he held the door, it seemed to me that the Army of the Dead would eventually overcome Hodor and be able to overtake an 18-year-old girl dragging 150 pounds of Bran through snow. Seemed like a bit of a plot hole.

Now it makes me think of a possibility: The Night King wanted to drive Bran south to the Wall so that Bran's touched presence wipes away the magic that prevents dead things from going south of the Wall. 

[Lady S.]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One of the things I had wondered about was how Bran and Meera managed to escape the Army of the Dead. Yes, Hodor's sacrifice was noble and all that. But really, no matter how long he held the door, it seemed to me that the Army of the Dead would eventually overcome Hodor and be able to overtake an 18-year-old girl dragging 150 pounds of Bran through snow. Seemed like a bit of a plot hole.

Now it makes me think of a possibility: The Night King wanted to drive Bran south to the Wall so that Bran's touched presence wipes away the magic that prevents dead things from going south of the Wall. 

The possibility can't be ruled out, but the dead did overtake Meera at the start of the very next ep, which was why they needed Benjen to rescue them. From then until he dropped them off within sight of the Wall they were traveling on horseback which should have considerably increased the traveling speed compared to Meera dragging Bran on her own. Although it is a bit of a plot hole that Meera dragged him from the weirwood to the Wall when Benjen made them leave their original sledge behind to get on his horse. Also, the wights are not bloodhounds, and we only know the Night King knew Bran was in the cave, not that he has his eye on him at all times now, so different wights would have to find Bran after Benjen destroyed those formerly on his trail.

[Chicago Redshirt]

You don't have to be a bloodhound to follow tracks in the snow left by an 18-year-old dragging a 150 pound boy. So easy, even a caveman can do it.

Nor do you even have to be that particularly good at following tracks in the snow when you can deploy roughly a gazillion people to the search.

One thing that makes me sad: I hadn't thought about the possibility/probability of wight Hodor till just about now. :(

Edited July 18, 2017 by Chicago Redshirt

[Lady S.]

I'm assuming there's been more snowfall to cover their tracks. It is winter, after all, and it snowed often enough beyond the Wall before Winter. And again those tracks only started again after Benjen left them. That's what I meant, they'd pick up the trail further south even though the Wall stretches for hundreds of miles east and west. Benjen was a ranger, presumably he should have been able to cover his tracks/leave a confusing trail when being chased, even without more snowing. Though I'm sure it snowed at some point. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Lady S.

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I assume Ned's underestimating Cersei had something of the same benevolent sexism which led him never to curse in front of his girls. No way in hell he'd have made the same offer to Jaime imo, because he'd know that a man would protect his children and the rest of his family by fighting his enemies, not fleeing them. That would be both manly and dutiful in a family way, but he took it for granted that a woman should jump at the chance to take her kids and flee. It never occurred to him that Cersei (and Lancel) could kill Robert without Jaime or even a sword. 

 

Well, we'll agree to disagree on the benevolent sexism bit - but I would think that yes, Ned would give Jamie the same choice. Ned didn't want Cersei killed (regardless of how he felt about her at the time). nor did he want Robert to kill said children and they would be moderately safer at Casterly Rock as Tywin + the Lannister Army would be able to protect them. Ned has (honourable) issues against Jamie (Killing the Mad King/Kingslayer, the issues regarding his father and Bran), but I honestly don't think Ned would be "well he'll take care of his own self and the children."

and Considering Cersei was prepared to flee (this mortal earth) and drink poison and kill herself and Tomnen when she had no other options, I don't think Ned was wrong in thinking Cersei would flee and do the right thing. But as Electric pointed out when you think a certain way - you think EVERYONE thinks the same way as you and that's not the case at all. 

 

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Cersei reminds me of Niklaus on The Originals - both characters are always going on and on about how they're beset by enemies on all sides and how they need to protect their families from pending attacks, but in reality they are the architects of their own misery because their actions are what directly caused their enemies to become their enemies in the first place. When you fuck over other people, you can't expect to just get away with it. Yet these two always act like they've been sweet innocent little doves who were unjustly attacked for no reason. To be fair, Klaus is far pettier than Cersei is. He once murdered someone at an inn for coughing too loudly. He killed families just for fun. But like Cersei, he thinks he's untouchable and that he can get away with meting out whatever punishment he deems appropriate without any blowback. And when retribution comes, like Cersei he acts belligerent and offended, painting himself as the victim as if he didn't have this shit coming.

One thing to keep in mind is that people tend to assume that everyone else is like them. Honest people assume that other people are also honest. Sneaky liars assume that everyone else is scheming and lying. And unfortunately for people like Ned and Jon, they assume that justice will prevail because everyone else has the same sense of honor that they do, which is not true AT ALL. Neither Ned nor Jon would ever do any of the things that Cersei has done, which is exactly why they are so blindsided when they get stabbed in the back.

Or as Margaery would say, he wants to be THE King. I can only imagine what a stylish but ruthless pair Margaery and Littlefinger would have been, ruling with an iron fist while looking fabulously chic.

 

LOL exactly. Cersei is 100 percent the Niklus of this show "Why me?! What did I do?" (wipes blood from her hands). 

:( i miss Margaery  and I agree with your middle point. my mom always drums it into my head - not everyone thinks like you but in this show - the majority of the people believe everyone thinks the same way from their world view. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 minutes ago, Daisy said:

LOL exactly. Cersei is 100 percent the Niklus of this show "Why me?! What did I do?" (wipes blood from her hands). 

:( i miss Margaery  and I agree with your middle point. my mom always drums it into my head - not everyone thinks like you but in this show - the majority of the people believe everyone thinks the same way from their world view. 

Ha, meanwhile Klaus would chide Cersei for wasting perfectly good blood of your enemies that could have been used to literally paint pictures of ponies and snowflakes. I'm glad I'm not the only one who watched GoT and The Originals!

I think the whole "not everyone thinks the same way you do" explains why Jon and Ned can't seem to comprehend whenever they are betrayed or outfoxed because they are too straightforward to even consider the idea that other people might be backstabbing assholes who will lie straight to your face. Part of me thinks that it must be great to go through life truly believing that people will always do the right thing. But the other part of me thinks that I'm glad I have enough cynicism to know that there are some people out there who will do whatever it takes to get what they want, even if that means being a jerk. I'm not saying I like when people act like jerks, just that I'm not as surprised as Jon and Ned are when it happens.

[Kelda Feegle]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One thing that makes me sad: I hadn't thought about the possibility/probability of wight Hodor till just about now. :(

 

ouch - right in the feels

[markx]

Jon Snow: progressive when it comes to gender equality. Not so progressive when it comes to child labour laws.

I mean, on the one hand that scene was very uplifting, but on the other, I note that "let's send all the children down the mines" is as progressive as Victorian England.