S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Drogo]

18 hours ago, Shermie said:

As far as a gift, I'd agree that Tyrion's head on a spike and/or Sansa's head on a spike would be Cersei's favourite gifts.

As long as it's not another direwolf head.  I can't with the direwolves.

[FnkyChkn34]

52 minutes ago, mdwh said:

Jon Snow: progressive when it comes to gender equality. Not so progressive when it comes to child labour laws.

I mean, on the one hand that scene was very uplifting, but on the other, I note that "let's send all the children down the mines" is as progressive as Victorian England.

I would never have called Westeros "progressive."  I know this isn't a real time period in actual history, but if it was, it would be middle ages/medieval times - so way less progressive than even Victorian England.

[Absurda]

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Or as Margaery would say, he wants to be THE King. I can only imagine what a stylish but ruthless pair Margaery and Littlefinger would have been, ruling with an iron fist while looking fabulously chic.

oh, great, now you've made me sad that Margaery is dead.  I would love to see a show with Margaery and Littlefinger ruling.

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As long as it's not another direwolf head.  I can't with the direwolves.

How many of these are left now?  It's just the two, right?  Arya's that she sent away and Jon's that pops up when relevant to the plot.  I thought he meant Tyrion's head as well, but that's going to be kind of a tall order so maybe not.

[Lady S.]

3 hours ago, Daisy said:

Well, we'll agree to disagree on the benevolent sexism bit - but I would think that yes, Ned would give Jamie the same choice. Ned didn't want Cersei killed (regardless of how he felt about her at the time). nor did he want Robert to kill said children and they would be moderately safer at Casterly Rock as Tywin + the Lannister Army would be able to protect them. Ned has (honourable) issues against Jamie (Killing the Mad King/Kingslayer, the issues regarding his father and Bran), but I honestly don't think Ned would be "well he'll take care of his own self and the children."

and Considering Cersei was prepared to flee (this mortal earth) and drink poison and kill herself and Tomnen when she had no other options, I don't think Ned was wrong in thinking Cersei would flee and do the right thing. But as Electric pointed out when you think a certain way - you think EVERYONE thinks the same way as you and that's not the case at all. 

Ned was never suggesting they flee to Casterly Rock, he was advising leaving Westeros itself and living as exiles. He even told her they'd be on the run their whole lives because Robert's wrath would always follow her. Jaime going to Casterly Rock and fighting in Tywin's army would be fighting for himself and his kids as most fathers (including Ned, who'd been committing treason on Jon's behalf for 17 years) would do, but that's not the choice Ned wanted Cersei to take. And I don't think that's what Ned himself would do if Robert somehow found out about Jon's true paternity. He'd hate fighting his best friend but forcing his wife and all six kids to live as exiled runaways like Jon's Targ relatives, while abandoning Winterfell and the entire north, would not be an easy solution either. Cersei was prepared for murder/suicide because Stannis was going to kill her, and Tommen would be either killed too or held hostage. Stannis, unlike Ned, was known to be pretty merciless, though I'm not at all saying that was a good thing. But ofc this is all ancient history so I'll shut up now if you really disagree.

[enoughcats]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Or as Margaery would say, he wants to be THE King. I can only imagine what a stylish but ruthless pair Margaery and Littlefinger would have been, ruling with an iron fist while looking fabulously chic.

In wondering who Cersei expects her progeny to be, my mind goes to Margaery and all that might have been.  I'm not sure that Cersei cares for her twin/former sperm donor although she might have at one time.  

But Margaery was wise in the ways of courts, of progeny, and of survival.  On the last bit, her timing was off.  She could have held her own, given just a bit of power.  

Instead of counting sheep to fall asleep, I was replaying GOT with Margaery instead of Sansa as Survivor.   Ramsay Bolton would not have lasted very long.

[Dobian]

17 hours ago, Timetoread said:

 

I must have missed something in the narrative because hasn't this show shown time and time again the folly in assuming mercy will win you loyalty? 

No matter what choice you make it's a crap shoot.  Maybe those kids hated their fathers or are just so thrilled at already getting their inheritance they don't mind so much about their parents' early demise.  This is Westeros, after all.  Or maybe letting them keep their houses will piss off Jon's allies to where they could turn on him later (Sansa's argument).  As someone else pointed out above, being totally ruthless has its downside too.  Cersei is now boxed into a corner and all her heirs are dead.  Jon needs to be true to who he is.  But showing mercy for the sake of mercy can be foolish.  You need to know when to drop the hammer on someone.

[proserpina65]

6 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Unless Cersei shows up at his door tomorrow and depletes most of his army before the WW arrive.  They have been coming since the first season but we are not getting a good timeline as to their ETA or what they are waiting for.

I think they're waiting for something to take away the magic spells which prevent the dead from being able to cross the Wall.  Like, say, Bran, who's carrying the mark of the Night King, which made it possible for the dead army to attack the Three-Eyed Raven's magic tree.

[paigow]

Why does Sansa think the "stupid gene" skipped her? [or is recessive?] Plenty of dumb branches on the Tully family tree as well...  Sometimes Sansa & Jon is like Forrest vs Bubba on Jeopardy....

[candall]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

As long as it's not another direwolf head.  I can't with the direwolves.

Same.  The direwolf deaths, and Shaggydog's head being tossed around, were bruuuuutal, but I LIVE for the possibility of Arya being reunited with Nymeria.  A young woman riding around on her own can't count on all the men she runs into being benign stunt-casting pop star cameo types.

[Shermie]

I don't know why anyone wants the Iron Throne. Talk about making yourself th number one target. Even if you're a good ruler who is liked by most of the people, a "conquer and usurp" society always leaves enough people behind with hatred and vengeance on their mind. Better to be a middle-ranked noble family minding your own business.

I realize you could argue that that's what the Starks were, but with the Mad King's bastard progeny hiding in plain sight in his family, and being besties with the current king, Ned Stark wasn't just another nobleman.

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

In wondering who Cersei expects her progeny to be, my mind goes to Margaery and all that might have been.  I'm not sure that Cersei cares for her twin/former sperm donor although she might have at one time.  

I wonder if that's what Cersei was referring to when she said Tommen betrayed her. His suicide effectively killed their bloodline. Cersei is what, 40-ish? For the time period, that would be on the older side to conceive and carry a pregnancy to term. Jaime could marry, but he doesn't seem interested in finding another woman. Every move Cersei makes always seems to bite her in the ass in the end.

Edited July 18, 2017 by BitterApple

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, Shermie said:

I don't know why anyone wants the Iron Throne. Talk about making yourself th number one target. Even if you're a good ruler who is liked by most of the people, a "conquer and usurp" society always leaves enough people behind with hatred and vengeance on their mind. Better to be a middle-ranked noble family minding your own business.

I realize you could argue that that's what the Starks were, but with the Mad King's bastard progeny hiding in plain sight in his family, and being besties with the current king, Ned Stark wasn't just another nobleman.

I don't think having Jon made any difference to how people treated Ned (afterall, everyone still thinks he's just Ned's bastard) - but the fact that Ned actively fought right along side Robert in Robert's Rebellion and helped to put Robert on the Throne mattered a lot.  Best friends or not, Ned was an active participant in overthrowing the Targaryans.  

[Fairlily26]

22 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Thanks for clarifying on the Wall.  Built with lots of ice and magic, I guess.

I didn't think there was any question that the Unsullied had their testicles removed.  The question is whether there is a penis, or if they are like Varys (and Theon) and it's all been taken away.  

Remember how strange everyone thought it was in Mureen that Unsullied were going to brothels.  They're not supposed to have any interest in sex.  

This was my question.

[Couver]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

In wondering who Cersei expects her progeny to be, my mind goes to Margaery and all that might have been.  I'm not sure that Cersei cares for her twin/former sperm donor although she might have at one time.  

But Margaery was wise in the ways of courts, of progeny, and of survival.  On the last bit, her timing was off.  She could have held her own, given just a bit of power.  

Instead of counting sheep to fall asleep, I was replaying GOT with Margaery instead of Sansa as Survivor.   Ramsay Bolton would not have lasted very long.

I adored Margaery *sobs*. I think she played the game very well but she wasn't ruthless enough. There was a kindness to Margaery that let her pursue her own agenda without being like Cersei. Had she been more ruthless she may have found a way to eliminate Cersei before Cersei got her. I think Olenna may have moved to do that if she didn't get distracted dealing with Loras and Margaery being imprisoned. 

 

10 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I wonder if that's what Cersei was referring to when she said Tommen betrayed her. His suicide effectively killed their bloodline. Cersei is what, 40-ish? For the time period, that would be on the older side to conceive and carry a pregnancy to term. Jaime could marry, but he doesn't seem interested in finding another woman. Every move Cersei makes always seems to bite her in the ass in the end.

Cersei likely could try and have another child but she doesn't have a husband to pass the child off as anything but an incest baby now. Obviously it's well known throughout KL that she and Jamie had offspring but being so brazen as to publicly have her brother's baby and pass it off as the next in line for the throne may cause riots or a massive backlash. She's barely holding on to power as it is. I'm guessing that's partly why she's looking for a husband. To serve as cover in case she and Jamie conceive again. 

[enoughcats]

22 minutes ago, Couver said:

To serve as cover in case she and Jamie conceive again. 

Unless they already have.

How long in GOT time was the...interlude .....by the dead king, their son?

[AshleyN]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

No matter what choice you make it's a crap shoot.  Maybe those kids hated their fathers or are just so thrilled at already getting their inheritance they don't mind so much about their parents' early demise.  This is Westeros, after all.  Or maybe letting them keep their houses will piss off Jon's allies to where they could turn on him later (Sansa's argument).  As someone else pointed out above, being totally ruthless has its downside too.  Cersei is now boxed into a corner and all her heirs are dead.  Jon needs to be true to who he is.  But showing mercy for the sake of mercy can be foolish.  You need to know when to drop the hammer on someone.

This reminds me of something that occured to me during that scene that I haven't really seen discussed: who exactly were these "loyal" Northern houses that Sansa wanted to reward with the castles? Weren't there like, three families that fought for them in the Battle of the Bastards? One of which is so depleted they're being led by a ten year old and managed to contribute exactly 62 soldiers to the cause. And all of which I assume took a major hit during the battle itself, given what a massacre it turned into before the Riders of Rohan showed up at the end.

Hell, Tormund contributed more by convincing the Wildlings to fight than any Northern house did, and while House Giantsbane manning The Last Hearth would be cool as shit (especially if they kept the sigil), I can't imagine that would go over very well with the other Northerners either.

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

This reminds me of something that occured to me during that scene that I haven't really seen discussed: who exactly were these "loyal" Northern houses that Sansa wanted to reward with the castles? Weren't there like, three families that fought for them in the Battle of the Bastards? One of which is so depleted they're being led by a ten year old and managed to contribute exactly 62 soldiers to the cause. And all of which I assume took a major hit during the battle itself, given what a massacre it turned into before the Riders of Rohan showed up at the end.

Hell, Tormund contributed more by convincing the Wildlings to fight than any Northern house did, and while House Giantsbane manning The Last Hearth would be cool as shit (especially if they kept the sigil), I can't imagine that would go over very well with the other Northerners either.

And to follow up on that, I can't believe that Tormund was so quick to listen to Jon, follow his orders, and agree to go man the Wall at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.  The whole point of the Wildlings is that they live free and don't take orders, isn't it?  I guess they changed their attitudes when they realized that the WW would kill them all if they didn't align with the people south of the Wall?

[AshleyN]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And to follow up on that, I can't believe that Tormund was so quick to listen to Jon, follow his orders, and agree to go man the Wall at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.  The whole point of the Wildlings is that they live free and don't take orders, isn't it?  I guess they changed their attitudes when they realized that the WW would kill them all if they didn't align with the people south of the Wall?

Wasn't that the deal Jon cut with the Wildlings though? That he'd let them through the Wall in exchange for their help in fighting the White Walkers? It probably helped too that Jon explicitly said he wasn't King of the Wildlings and tabled it more as a request.

Also, the Wildlings might not kneel, but they will follow leaders that they deem worthy (eg. Mance), and post-Hardhome Tormund seems to view Jon as this. He knows that all the Wildlings owe their lives to him, and there was even a scene in BotB that's meant to illustrate how he and Davos are increasingly coming to see Jon as the person who can lead them through the new Long Night. Tbh, Jon/Tormund is kind of one of my favourite relationships in the series, because it's one of the few that seems to be built on mutual understanding and genuine respect.

[iMonrey]

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Ugh, you and me both! They're trying to turn her into some kind of feminist hero, but it's getting really annoying. She contributed a whopping 62 men to the BOTB. Her House is bush league compared to the others. The men deferring to her like that doesn't ring true to me. 

Agreed. I get as big a kick out of the little Lady of Bear Island as anyone else. But I have a hard time believing these big, tough Northern Lords with their medieval mindsets would pay the slightest bit of attention to this kid. She's not only a girl, she's a kid. That's a double whammy. It's not her personality I find unrealistic, it's the attitude and deference the grown men are paying her I find hard to buy. Jon, sure - he needed her help. But all these other Northern lords? Huh-uh.

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Ah!  I just watched this yesterday.  The farmer was kind to The Hound and Arya, taking them in and giving them dinner.  He offered The Hound "honest wages for honest work," but The Hound stole the farmer's little bag of coins and left in the night, dragging Arya along.  He tells her that the farmer and his daughter won't be needing the silver coins because they'll be dead by winter.  (Arya steals the bag from The Hound later, when he's begging her to kill him.)

 Thank you! Ultimately I feel like the entire subplot with the Hound finding this cabin hinged on the audience remembering that episode - how many seasons ago? Three? Four? I know fans can be pretty obsessive about this show but what casual viewer is going to remember that?

[Popples]

16 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I think if they'd been more subtle with the camera work, the Ed Sheeran cameo wouldn't have grated, however with the lingering close-ups, it was like "ta-da!!! Ed Sheeran, folks!!!". It was way too in-your-face. It took the audience away from the scene and back into 21st century pop culture. When I rewatched the episode today, the effect wasn't as bad, but still not something I ever want to see on this show again.

It was really annoying. They've had members of Snow Patrol, Coldplay and a few other bands I had never heard of before on previous episodes, but they were kept as background characters. I think it was members of Snow Patrol singing the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" that were with Locke when they captured  Jaime and Brienne. But the camera never gave them numerous close-ups.

[Joimiaroxeu]

18 hours ago, taanja said:

It wasn't just the chamber pots-- it was the fact that the soup they all consumed looked exactly like the shit in the chamber pots. I thought the whole thing was brilliant.

Yeah, I was trying to forget the part about the soup. It makes me wonder if there's any nutritional value at all to the soup given that it comes out pretty much looking the same way as it went in.

[Kbilly]

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 I LIVE for the possibility of Arya being reunited with Nymeria

PLEASE! Season 6 was really hard on me Direwolf wise. Starting with Ghost wailing at still-dead Jon. 

Speaking of reunions, couldn't Arya have just swung by Winterfell to see her sibs?!  I know she's on mad revenge spree but just for a sec!

[blackwing]

19 hours ago, taanja said:

It wasn't just the chamber pots-- it was the fact that the soup they all consumed looked exactly like the shit in the chamber pots. I thought the whole thing was brilliant. The disgust-- the tedium-- the absolute horror of that duty day in day out. Sam is an important character. Remember he wanted SO much to be a Maester? Well Sammy boy-- be careful what you wish for-- you just may get it!

Agreed, I thought the sequence was fantastic, even if it was disgusting.  I mentioned on the other thread that I was eating at the time I was watching.  Out of all the things to be eating, I happened to be eating a bowl of Amy's Organic Lentil Soup.  I will never look at lentil soup the same way again, it looked too close to what I saw on the screen.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

 I happened to be eating a bowl of Amy's Organic Lentil Soup.

Maybe Ed Sheeran arranged a product placement while negotiating his deal.....

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

That's a double whammy. It's not her personality I find unrealistic, it's the attitude and deference the grown men are paying her I find hard to buy.

she's the head of her house, she's owed some level of respect no matter the size of the house or her age and gender. The North is big on honor and she is treated with the honor and respect due to her station.

[Drogo]

When Ned was arrested and Robb/Cat went off in S1, all of Winterfell was reporting to Bran- no questions asked. 

I think he was as young then as Lyanna is now, and he wasn't  nearly as groomed for lordship as she's been (as the Lady of BI since the War of the Five Kings and sole heir to Bear Island since Jorah's exile some years prior.)  

She's a boss. 

[BitterApple]

The thing is, if her entire role consists of nothing but tongue lashings where she puts the big, grumpy men in their place, it's going to get old very quickly. Dany was often criticized for being a one-note character, and it seems like Lyanna is going in the same direction. 

[Clanstarling]

On 7/16/2017 at 7:03 PM, AimingforYoko said:

I know Euron definitely has to go this season to clear the decks for the "Great War", but dammit if I'm not going to enjoy every second of him until then. That "two good hands" shot at Jaime was gold.

Pun intended? Either way - excellent!

 

On 7/16/2017 at 8:46 PM, ShannaB said:

The way Jaime was looking at Cersei makes me think and hope that he kills the 'mad Queen' before the series ends.  It would be so fitting.

Now that you mention it - the end game must be that the Kingslayer becomes the Queenslayer. At least in my mind.

 

On 7/17/2017 at 0:43 PM, BitterApple said:

That's gonna be a bummer for Missandei if Greyworm is indeed castrated.  

It seems to me that this "problem" as already been acknowledged between Missandei and Greyworm (and there are other ways...)

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

You don't have to be a bloodhound to follow tracks in the snow left by an 18-year-old dragging a 150 pound boy. So easy, even a caveman can do it.

Though I get the reference (funny!), seems like a caveman would be an excellent tracker. Just saying. ;)

5 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I wonder if that's what Cersei was referring to when she said Tommen betrayed her. His suicide effectively killed their bloodline. Cersei is what, 40-ish? For the time period, that would be on the older side to conceive and carry a pregnancy to term. Jaime could marry, but he doesn't seem interested in finding another woman. Every move Cersei makes always seems to bite her in the ass in the end.

I think he betrayed her by starting to think for himself (or rather, to think as his wife and religious leader wanted him to). Joffrey really was the child of her soul, wasn't he?

Edited July 18, 2017 by Clanstarling

[AimingforYoko]

4 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

It seems to me that this "problem" as already been acknowledged between Missandei and Greyworm (and there are other ways...)

To quote the great philosopher Monica Geller, he can "be there for her."

[meep.meep]

And be rewarded with many fruitbaskets!

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Thank you! Ultimately I feel like the entire subplot with the Hound finding this cabin hinged on the audience remembering that episode - how many seasons ago? Three? Four? I know fans can be pretty obsessive about this show but what casual viewer is going to remember that?

Me!  I thought it was the inn where he got the chickens though when they first walked in.  When they showed the corpses, I remembered the father and daughter.

During Euron's lengthy speech, didn't he mention something about sailing all of the fourteen seas?  Why are these people so obsessed with counting everything?  Brought me back to my favorite moment in the entire show:  Khal Moro making a point about the best thing in life, and all the other Dothraki pointing out other best things in life, and the poor Khal concluding with "the five greatest joys in life are...."

[Macbeth]

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One of the things I had wondered about was how Bran and Meera managed to escape the Army of the Dead. Yes, Hodor's sacrifice was noble and all that. But really, no matter how long he held the door, it seemed to me that the Army of the Dead would eventually overcome Hodor and be able to overtake an 18-year-old girl dragging 150 pounds of Bran through snow. Seemed like a bit of a plot hole.

Now it makes me think of a possibility: The Night King wanted to drive Bran south to the Wall so that Bran's touched presence wipes away the magic that prevents dead things from going south of the Wall. 

I have been going on the assumption that Bran's entire story is a long con by the Children of the Forest. Given that the Night King's mark on Bran allowed him to enter the sacred tree - I believe Bran is the King's key to get past the wall.  And according to the Hound's vision it is going to happen very soon.

I feel bad for the children who swore fealty to regain those castles right by the Wall.  They are in the vanguard and they have no battle experience.  I hope they are able to get some ravens out before they are overrun.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When the Hound looked into the fire and said he saw the wall, I was hoping he would then turn back to the Brotherhood and say, "I'm just fucking with you, ya stupid cunts! There's nothing in the fire but fire!"

[iMonrey]

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she's the head of her house, she's owed some level of respect no matter the size of the house or her age and gender. The North is big on honor and she is treated with the honor and respect due to her station.

No, I don't buy it. If she's a minor there should be a regent calling the shots for her. Robert Arryn is the head of House Arryn but has a regent (first his mother, now Petyr Baelish). Kids don't run things just because their parents are dead and they're next in line. That's exactly why and how others seize power. I don't buy these old guys letting this little girl talk back to them.

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When Ned was arrested and Robb/Cat went off in S1, all of Winterfell was reporting to Bran- no questions asked. 

He wasn't ordering other Lords around though, and his brother was "King in the North." Leaving Bran alone is also what made it so easy for Theon to take Winterfell. Maybe nobody cares about taking over Bear Island but who the hell left a little girl in charge of House Mormont and why? We don't see any precedent for that in other great houses. 

[Robert Lynch]

Frankly, I am getting tired of Ed Sheeran popping up on any show. First, it was The Bastard Executioner. Then it was an appearance in Bridget Jone's Diary. Now, it's Game of Thrones. Just stop already...

[dizzyd]

5 hours ago, candall said:

I LIVE for the possibility of Arya being reunited with Nymeria.  A young woman riding around on her own can't count on all the men she runs into being benign stunt-casting pop star cameo types.

I'm really hoping Nymeria spent the last 6 seasons procreating and that there's a huge DW pack in Westeros, not just 2. 

I realize I wasn't as pumped after watching this episode as I have previous season premieres. So much, that I didn't have much I wanted to talk about besides A Girl avenging half her family.

It has been disappointing and exhausting to read most of the episode discussion (thankfully not on this thread) about Jon/WW v Sansa/Cersei. I personally think that J and S already hashed it out and moved on but the online debate will go on for a while. 

I hope this episode was just setting things up and the next episode goes full throttle. No more cleaning bedpans or singing by the fire, I want to see the chess pieces moving across the map, be it Cersei's floormap or Stannis' fuck table. "Shall we begin" indeed.

[BitterApple]

1 minute ago, dizzyd said:

It has been disappointing and exhausting to read most of the episode discussion (thankfully not on this thread) about Jon/WW v Sansa/Cersei. I personally think that J and S already hashed it out and moved on but the online debate will go on for a while. 

 

I think that scene was largely a plot device for Littlefinger to use his divide and conquer technique in later episodes. I've always felt the Sansa hate on the Interwebz was largely unfair and unwarranted. Yes, she's no political mastermind, but Jon ain't exactly Winston Churchill either. I don't understand why Lyanna is a "bad ass" for speaking up but Sansa is an idiot. Not directing this at anyone here, just personal gripe based on what I've read in various forums. 

[KaleyFirefly]

On 7/16/2017 at 10:08 PM, Wayward Son said:

"Where the wall meets the sea there is a castle". Where exactly is the hound talking about? 

 

Eastwatch By The Sea, one of the Nightwatch's forts on the Wall. He was seeing the Night King army almost at the Wall.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 7/16/2017 at 11:58 PM, LittleIggy said:

I don't want Baelish gone since his character is fun, I love Aiden Gillen, and one of my cats is named "Lord Baelish."

Awesome cat name. Is his nickname Littlepaw?

[MrWhyt]

49 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 Kids don't run things just because their parents are dead and they're next in line.

but they do, cause she's doing it. 

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I don't buy these old guys letting this little girl talk back to them.

their king treats her according to her station, they better follow his example.

[Drogo]

58 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I don't buy these old guys letting this little girl talk back to them.

Lords have the right to speak to each other as they wish, unless one is the other's Liege Lord to whom they've sworn allegiance, regardless of how much older or more male one is than the other.  

[TaurusRose]

On 7/17/2017 at 1:18 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

All that is true. 

But when Robert died and it was time for transition to a new king, Ned stood back and was trying to rely on law and tradition and honor to determine the next ruler while Cersei took control and made her son king, by whatever means necessary.  And Ned ended up dead while cersei, at least for now, is still alive. 

And she has learned NOTHING.  Her days are numbered and she is too stupid to see it.  She stole the IT.  She has no right to it and neither did her bastard sons.  She needs a death worse than Joffrey's for all of her sins.  I can't wait for Dany to drag her ass off of the IT and what's left of the Lannisters ran out KL by dragon fire.  As for Ned, he was out of his league in KL.  That doesn't make him stupid or naive.  He was not a game player.  He did not trade in treachery and deceit.  Ned was a man of the North.  He never wanted to go to KL, but he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.  He could have refused Robert his friend, but not Robert his king.  

[TaurusRose]

On 7/17/2017 at 3:24 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I must have totally blocked this out from last season.  Bran was marked by the Night King?  And Bran knows for sure what he did and what that means?

 Yes. The previous 3ER told him.

[MisterBluxom]

On 2017-07-17 at 8:42 PM, taanja said:

I think Urine's gift will be a dragon.

Little Finger told Sansa last season--- whenever he pictures anything in his mind-- he pictures the end-- with HIM-- on the iron throne... and Sansa by his side. The Sansa by his side was said (IMO) as an after thought-- like oh yeah I suppose I should include you in my little day dream seeing how I am using you as a means to an end.

Little Finger wants to sit on the iron throne. That has been his motivation the entire series.

A dragon?

A dragon is not like a rifle or handgun. You can't just take one and make it yours. Remember that episode where Dany agreed to trade one of her dragons to some fool and he got it on a leash? I suppose he figured he could just give it orders. But after speaking to it, the dragon just snorted and incinerated him by breathing fire on him.

Owning a dragon requires some kind of bond between the owner and dragon. They are thinking creatures. They don't do what they are told by anyone. You need to raise them from birth in order to get them to obey you. Euron may be plenty stupid. I just wonder if he is that stupid?

Edited July 19, 2017 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

10 hours ago, Drogo said:

As long as it's not another direwolf head.  I can't with the direwolves.

Well, Cersei might want Tyrion's head on a pike as a gift - because she is crazy.

Having him delivered to her alive would be a much, much, very much better gift. She could question him for a while and then torture him all she liked for a very long time. She would enjoy that much more than just knowing he is dead. She would want to see him die. She'd want to kill him herself. She'd want to torture him first before she killed him. Remember that awful woman who kept yelling "Shame! Shame!"?

She isn't dead yet. Cersei didn't kill her. She arranged to keep her prisoner and have her beast torture her - presumably for a long time.

If you can put yourself in Cersei's shoes, I think you will see that having Tyrion to question, torture and then murder would be far more enjoyable for Cersei than just to see him dead.

She is crazy and she is one of the worst human beings in the history of the world.

37 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

And she has learned NOTHING.  Her days are numbered and she is too stupid to see it.  She stole the IT.  She has no right to it and neither did her bastard sons.  She needs a death worse than Joffrey's for all of her sins.  I can't wait for Dany to drag her ass off of the IT and what's left of the Lannisters ran out KL by dragon fire.  As for Ned, he was out of his league in KL.  That doesn't make him stupid or naive.  He was not a game player.  He did not trade in treachery and deceit.  Ned was a man of the North.  He never wanted to go to KL, but he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.  He could have refused Robert his friend, but not Robert his king.  

I can understand your feelings and I sympathize with you very much. Unfortunately, I don't think that just because we want to see her suffer at the hands of Dany and/or Jon that we are likely going to get that.

Lately, so many good TV shows (like Fargo) seems to know what the audience wants to see but doesn't show us that. They leave it to the audience to imagine whatever they want. How disappointing.

I would guess we will learn that Cersei has lost all her power. But I doubt we will actually see anything bad happen to her. I'm sorry to say that because I sure would like to see Dany have one of her dragons convert Cersei into a "crispy critter". Sadly, I doubt the SR will ever give us that gift. Despite how badly we may want it.

[DrSpaceman73]

36 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

And she has learned NOTHING.  Her days are numbered and she is too stupid to see it.  She stole the IT.  She has no right to it and neither did her bastard sons.  She needs a death worse than Joffrey's for all of her sins.  I can't wait for Dany to drag her ass off of the IT and what's left of the Lannisters ran out KL by dragon fire.  As for Ned, he was out of his league in KL.  That doesn't make him stupid or naive.  He was not a game player.  He did not trade in treachery and deceit.  Ned was a man of the North.  He never wanted to go to KL, but he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.  He could have refused Robert his friend, but not Robert his king.  

I agree Cersei is not long for the throne.  As Tyrion once pointed out, even if he is only half as smart as he thinks he is (Tyrion), he is still smarter than Cersei.

But I disagree about ned.   The way he acted after Robert died was the very definition of both stupid and naïve. 

Sure, he is of "the north", but he helped Robert capture the throne.  He knows how these things work even if he doesn't like it.   The very reason he didn't want to become hand of the king and be in KL was BECAUSE he knew how the things worked in KL, but he refused to act to prevent cersei, Joffrey and Littlefinger and everyone else from taking the throne in the manner they did.  He was stupid for how he acted and naïve for believing what he was doing was going to be effective in preventing them from making Joffrey king

[CletusMusashi]

Watch the gift be something ridiculously anticlimactic, like, he just comes back wearing a banana hammock and waggling his eyebrows at her.

[Drogo]

Just now, CletusMusashi said:

Watch the gift be something ridiculously anticlimactic, like, he just comes back wearing a banana hammock and waggling his eyebrows at her.

That would be a gift for us all. 

[TaurusRose]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:30 PM, Timetoread said:

 

I must have missed something in the narrative because hasn't this show shown time and time again the folly in assuming mercy will win you loyalty?   Those kids may already be resentful and plotting revenge because their traitorous parents were ALREADY executed.  I don't see where Sansa has been wrong yet.  Since when do people prefer seeing their enemies pardoned over being rewarded for their loyalty?  That's just dumb.  The men were agreeing with Sansa until Jon got all alpha and "shut up because women are stupid".  I haven't seen Jon be right yet either.  That said, where in the narrative did Sansa say or imply that Cersei is her mentor and hero?  What she said was that she learned a lot from Cersei.  And I'm sure she has. We often do learn a lot from our enemies.  She has learned just how disgusting a human soul can be.  She's learned about how strong she can be.  She also probably learned Cersei's weaknesses as well.  What has Jon learned, EVER?  How to get killed?  How to get others killed?  What has he done to even deserve the title King in the North other be born with Stark blood and a penis?  Every other thing he's done has been a disaster.  Including his encounter with the white walkers, in which everybody except him and his friends died.  His time at the Night's Watch ended up with mutiny and being killed.  His campaign against Ramsay failed as well.  I don't hate Jon but I must have missed the season when he became the wisest, most powerful, awesomest dude to ever exist who is beyond reproach.  I don't get why in any disagreement the masses always come down Team Jon, totally disregarding his track record.

 

First, some men were agreeing with Sansa, not all.  Second, none of them had the right to pass judgment on young Karstark or Umberly since they ALL had done the same thing: refused to answer the call when made, thereby turning their backs on the Starks.  Unless they were one of the few houses that did come out in support of House Stark, they have absolutely no room to talk and could also be called traitors.  

Regarding the narrative being showing mercy is foolhardy, I couldn't disagree more. Mercy is what got the Wildlings onboard and willing to fight not only against the WW, which was part of the deal, but fighting with Jon against Ramsay.

I grow weary of this narrative that every disagreement between men and women is because the man is sexist.  Trying to frame Jon's attitude as anything other than a leader squashing dissent in public from someone who is supposed to be on his side is disingenuous. And trying to frame Sansa as this savvy political operative is crazy, IMO.  She's done nothing to even begin to entertain this notion, but she does have a history of missteps and failures.

If you want to know why I think Jon is worthy of being a leader and KiTN or why his track record is superior to Sansa's, refer to my S6 posts, I have no desire to beat that horse again.  

On 7/17/2017 at 6:34 PM, BitterApple said:

Hell, you'd think Olly stabbing Jon in the heart would've been enough of a lesson in not trusting children. 

Seriously, what does this have to do with what's going on now?  

On 7/17/2017 at 7:08 PM, Absurda said:

I don't recall anyone saying this.  ALL the characters (yes, Sansa included) have made miscalculations and mistakes.  Ultimately, Jon was right about the wildlings and the threat of the WW, even if no one believed him.  Sansa was wrong about trusting Little Finger and marrying Ramsey Bolton.  Jon was wrong to disregard hundreds of years of prejudice against wildlings and Sansa was right about needing more people to defeat Ramsey.  I just think when it comes to the largest threat and what to do with the "traitor" families Jon is right and Sansa is wrong.  I also think Jon was wrong to make these decisions without discussing with Sansa ahead of time and Sansa was wrong to publicly question him.  Not because he's man and she's woman but because they need to show unity.  I also think they need to have regular, closed-door, meetings between the two of them (with Davos) to put all the cards on the table and move forward.  Sansa has been keeping things from Jon and it's going to get them into trouble. 

You say that as if Jon didn't know this. Jon weighed all the variables and concluded if they didn't fight when they did (when they had a slim chance of success), they would be at the mercy of winter as well as a larger army.  Sansa was dead wrong because she kept the knowledge of a nearby army that would balance the odds a secret and sent for them later than she should have. I don't think Jon was wrong for deciding what to do about K&U without consulting Sansa. He's been named KiTN, he's building alliances and strengthening his forces. Sansa has no room to have her nose out of joint, I'll never forgive her for playing games with BoTB.

On 7/17/2017 at 7:55 PM, meep.meep said:

Does Jon even realize that Sansa saved his sorry butt in the battle against Ramsey?  Against all their plans, he headed out impetuously, the rest of them followed and if the Knights of the Vale hadn't shown up, they would have all been slaughtered in the mud. 

Yes, he knows. I assume you saw the episode and know why Jon did that. Context is everything.

Quote

I assume Ned's underestimating Cersei had something of the same benevolent sexism which led him never to curse in front of his girls. No way in hell he'd have made the same offer to Jaime

There was no reason for Ned to make any offer to Jamie since he wasn't married to the king and trying to pass bastards off as heirs.  I will agree that Ned was way out of his league in KL and totally underestimated how power hungry and ruthless Cersei is.

10 hours ago, Shermie said:

I realize you could argue that that's what the Starks were, but with the Mad King's bastard progeny hiding in plain sight in his family, and being besties with the current king, Ned Stark wasn't just another nobleman.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but the Mad King isn't Jon's father.  His son was.

9 hours ago, AshleyN said:

This reminds me of something that occured to me during that scene that I haven't really seen discussed: who exactly were these "loyal" Northern houses that Sansa wanted to reward with the castles? 

Who knows what Sansa was talking about? Because her reasoning based on the reality is fucked.

Edited July 19, 2017 by taurusrose

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I agree Cersei is not long for the throne.  As Tyrion once pointed out, even if he is only half as smart as he thinks he is (Tyrion), he is still smarter than Cersei.

But I disagree about ned.   The way he acted after Robert died was the very definition of both stupid and naïve. 

Sure, he is of "the north", but he helped Robert capture the throne.  He knows how these things work even if he doesn't like it.   The very reason he didn't want to become hand of the king and be in KL was BECAUSE he knew how the things worked in KL, but he refused to act to prevent cersei, Joffrey and Littlefinger and everyone else from taking the throne in the manner they did.  He was stupid for how he acted and naïve for believing what he was doing was going to be effective in preventing them from making Joffrey king

Helping someone take the throne as a warrior doesn't mean one understands the way things operate in KL. Ned didn't want to go to KL because he wasn't a courtier, and probably didn't like all the fawning and pretentiousness. He failed to understand the ruthlessness of the players. He trusted LF because his bitch of a wife vetted him. Nope, I stand by my assertion where Ned is concerned. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by taurusrose

[AshleyN]

On 7/17/2017 at 4:54 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I must have totally blocked this out from last season.  Bran was marked by the Night King?  And Bran knows for sure what he did and what that means?

He was marked by the Night King when he saw him in one of his visions, which allowed the Night King to break through the magic guarding the Weirwood tree they were all living under. The idea that this effect will carryover to Bran crossing through the Wall is still just a theory, albeit a fairly popular one.

Edited July 19, 2017 by AshleyN