S10.E12: The Doctor Falls

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

In the season finale, the Doctor makes a final stand against an army of Cybermen, to protect a tiny band of humans from destruction.

[Lantern7]

Normally, I would not post before an episode, but I need to alert anybody watching on BBC America: the episode runs for ninety minutes, and it starts at 8:30 p.m. this evening. Please spread the word to your fellow fans.

[Florinaldo]

It's the same thing on Space in Canada; instead of the usual practice which has been to finish half an hour later I believe, this longer episode starts half an hour sooner at 20h30, at least in Eastern Canada.

[Llywela]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will come back with more coherence at a later date

That was an excellent episode - and actually has me excited for the Christmas special for the first time in years, ye gods

Yes, there are quibbles and bugs, but if I let myself think about them right now I'll spoil this rosy glow of having thoroughly enjoyed the episode, so I'm just going to focus on my enjoyment of it for now and nitpick later

[foreverevolving]

Will comment more later when i'm back from work, but is it me or did Bill exit felt a whole like a rehash of Clara's?

dead, but not really; off to run the universe with another woman (though this time we know it is romantic)... no TARDIS this time around.

 

So is the christmas special gonna be the 1st and 12th adventures through time and space?

I can live with that.

[alrightokay]

I loved everything except the Heather/Bill resolution--that felt clumsy rather than poignant to me.  The Master and Missy together were a hoot; I wish we could have seen more of them, though their ending was so fitting.  Happy Nardole went out a leader, a hero.  And I'm glad Twelve got some beautiful moments here: his sadness at knowing that he got Bill into this mess; his speech about doing what's right, being kind; his reaching out to Missy.  I was especially moved by his regret that he couldn't see the stars as he was dying.  Capaldi's easily my favorite Doctor, and I really hope the Christmas special gives him a spectacular send-off (please do him justice, Moffat!)

[Beatriceblake]

The bits that worked for me in this were the Doctor/Bill parts. Pearl Mackie was terrific at playing Bill's sadness and anger.

I don't see the point of the whole Missy subplot if this is what it was leading to, it was just a rehash of the John Simm Master's original ending with 10.

I'm also slightly disappointed 12 wasn't more stoical about regenerating.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Beatriceblake

[Ceindreadh]

So Nardole is basically stuck being the leader of a group that sooner or later are going to be overrun by Cybermen? 

When Missy was walking away from the Master, I was shouting at her to not turn her back on him.  But I somehow can't see her being gone for good - although presumably will be in a new incarnation next time.

 

Glad that Bill got a happy ending, but I wish that the Doctor could find out somehow that she got uncyber-ised.  Although hopefully the TARDIS will find some way of letting the Doctor know what happened. 

[Lokiberry]

This was fantastic. Easily the best episode of the Capaldi era. The Master was evil beyond redemption and Missy was evil but tip toeing up to the edge of redemption. They were amazing together, one of the high points in an episode chock full of high points; and how they went out was absolutely perfect. Nardole was also perfect. I've really come to love the character, and his ending with Hazran and all the children was wonderful, even if they are all ultimately doomed. Bill's story was so sad, and I was just so resigned to her death right up until Heather showed up. Then, this bizarre wailing noise started, and it was me crying my guts out. I don't care if it's another case of Moffat not being willing to kill his companions off, if Clara got immortality and her own TARDIS  while Bill died a Cyberman, I would have thrown a bitch fit you could have seen from space.

And then there was the Doctor, fighting not because he thought he could win or he really had hope, but because his sacrifice could buy those people a little more time. That's the Doctor I've loved for 35 years. Moffat chose not show him much during Twelve's run, so I was very happy to see him today. Then, when he was holding back the regeneration and refusing to change, and up walked the First Doctor, I started laughing and crying at the same time. It was a truly perfect moment.

Only one tiny quibble: how come Rory wasn't included in the flashback of the companions? I went back and watched it again just to make sure I hadn't missed him. Everybody else was there, even Jenny and Vastra, who weren't technically companions. To be honest, I love Rory more than Amy, should I be offended that he was left out?

[Galileo908]

6 hours ago, alrightokay said:

I loved everything except the Heather/Bill resolution--that felt clumsy rather than poignant to me.  The Master and Missy together were a hoot; I wish we could have seen more of them, though their ending was so fitting.  Happy Nardole went out a leader, a hero.  And I'm glad Twelve got some beautiful moments here: his sadness at knowing that he got Bill into this mess; his speech about doing what's right, being kind; his reaching out to Missy.  I was especially moved by his regret that he couldn't see the stars as he was dying.  Capaldi's easily my favorite Doctor, and I really hope the Christmas special gives him a spectacular send-off (please do him justice, Moffat!)

Gonna agree with all of this. I loved everything except Heather & Bill. I didn't see that coming at all, so that was a plus. But I just felt like it came out of nowhere, and it reminds me of Clara's ending...but better. Bill's technically not dead, and she's travelling time & space with her own companion, but it also leaves the door open for her to come back at any time.

Absolutely loved Missy & The Master, there needed to be more of them. They're such giant egotists that of course they were very very close to just making out with themselves, and their stories ended with shooting each other in the back.

And yeah, I'm totally hyped for Christmas. One AND Twelve on an adventure together, leading to the Thirteenth Doctor? I'm in.

4 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Only one tiny quibble: how come Rory wasn't included in the flashback of the companions? I went back and watched it again just to make sure I hadn't missed him. Everybody else was there, even Jenny and Vastra, who weren't technically companions. To be honest, I love Rory more than Amy, should I be offended that he was left out?

I also didn't see Mickey, Danny, or Strax. Strax probably would've been silly, though, but he's my favorite, dammit! I wanted to see him one last time!

I caught references to the following regenerations:

1 > 2 (the Mondasian Cybermen being responsible)

5 > 6 (all the previous companions and The Master shouting The Doctor's name)

10 > 11 ("I don't want to go.")

11 > 12 ("When The Doctor was me.")

Were there any I missed? (EDIT: I did, 4 > 5, also had all the companions shouting The Doctor's name)

Edited July 2, 2017 by Galileo908

[catrox14]

"I thought there'd be stars".

I was holding it mostly together until that line. That did me in.

I'm so going to miss Capaldi.

So the 12th met 1 and my brain is having cognitive dissonance with that being Walder Frey!  LOL

What an episode!

[cardigirl]

I came here to post my disappointment about no memory of Rory, when the Doctor was recalling his companions. I loved Rory!!! Glad to see I'm not the only one. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by cardigirl

[Lantern7]

That was epic. And odd. Basically, Bill is now kinda/sorta sentient water like her crush from "The Pilot." And they're going to explore space and time together. Now I'm wondering if they'll bump into Clara and Ashildr. I hope not, because I'm thinking Maisie Williams has bigger things on her plate. Ditto Jenna Coleman. Not to mention that Clara sucks as a character, and I don't think Chibnall (sic?) can improve her.

You gotta admit, if we don't see any incarnation of the Master for some time, this would be the perfect end. Two scorpions stinging each other to death because that's what they are. Also liking Missy's weaponized umbrella. Sonic umbrella? Laser?? Pity Seven never thought of that. He didn't even have the screwdriver. Just a companion with a penchant for explosives.

I like the idea of the Doctor coming full circle, though I wonder if this would be during or before One's adventures. Thanks to BBCA, there were no credits. Had to hit AVClub to find out it was David Bradley. Hey, if you're going to get a new actor to play Hartnell's version, why not get the guy that played Hartnell? I'm hoping Moffat doesn't do too weird with his finale. I mean, what if the Doctor becomes brain-damaged/amnesiac, regenerates into something younger and female, and the First Doctor adopts her as his granddaughter? And the next season picks up after "The Dalek Invasion of Earth"? That's some weird-ass fanfic to be had.

I think I'm gonna miss Nardole. I would've made a bigger deal about him being more/less than human. I can't remember any Doctor carrying around a deadpan snarker.

ETA for @theschnauzers: Richard Hurndall played One in "The Five Doctors."

[LiveenLetLive]

I cried what can I say? I am a sucker for Whovian sentimentality. I hope that the next show runner notes how successful Bill and Nardole were as companions--no moony "love match" between the doctor and his hot young female companion, dare I hope for an equally interesting new companion/companions? I had to LOL when Missy and the Master were rubbed up together and he looks down and says "is it wrong to..." bwahaha.

[Enigma X]

I loved the finale. I will say what I said at the end of Ten's tenure. That is I hate when regenerations are written as death scenes. I get it may be painful and uncomfortable, but--after watching many "original recipe" episodes, this regeneration as death thing seems to be new.

Anyway, this one had me in the feels.

[theschnauzers]

6 hours ago, foreverevolving said:

So is the christmas special gonna be the 1st and 12th adventures through time and space?

I can live with that.

This will be the first time on the actual series that two actors would have played the same incarnation of The Doctor, although it is about 50 some years apart.

Also liked the brief cameo/flashbacks of Sarah Jane and Captain Jack (especially Sarah Jane, who now has appeared with over half of the Doctors in some form between the original series, specials and the current series).

[Bruinsfan]

With you there, Sarah Jane was my all-time favorite companion, and it was nice to see her remembered.

[ganesh]

The only reason I can think of that Missy doesn't remember anything was because she's lying and said, "I loved being you" to Simm. Unless she's that old that she legitimately forgot. Or because she whacked him in the head with the umbrella, but that's kind of lame. So she had to have known that Simm was going to zap her at the end. That's a weird cycle since he's presumably going to regenerate into her and be on the other end of it. 

I know it was a rather heavy-handed, but I hope a lot of kids watching the show got the Doctor's monologue of being kind. 

I wasn't expecting One, so that really through me. I assume One is going to be the one (sorry) to convince him to move on and regenerate. Both Twelve and One are rather similar (old, white, acerbic), so I hope it works. Given that there's off 1500 years or so between them should be interesting. I would have liked Nine or Eleven with One. Or Eight. Eight in anything. 

I am tired of the companions meeting tragic (ish) fates. I'm certainly glad Bill isn't a cyberman, and she can return to human and go back to her life, but I would have her not been a cyberman in the first place, help the Doctor blow everything up, get him to the TARDIS, and ask her (the TARDIS) to just take her home. 

Except for the dumb Monks, I liked this season getting back to just going on adventures, and I hope with the change in showrunners, that it gets back to that and not taking over the Earth and Everything Is A Thing. 

[KirkB]

First of all, Missy and the Master together were hilarious. I wish I could have seen more of it. Of course the Master would want to make out with himself. Who else would be good enough for him? And naturally they stabbed each other in the back. No one else can take the Master out, not really, not even the Doctor. But in spite of what he said it would be fairly easy for Missy to regenerate if Chibnall wants to go there.

I was resigned to Bill going out fighting, even though I didn't like the idea of her being a Cyberman but taking a bunch of them out with her would have been appropriate. I must admit though, I did not see Heather coming. If Bill can't be human again, at least this way she gets to continue traveling the universe at her own pace, and with a new girlfriend, so I'm okay with that. Plus, she'd have an easier time coming back for a visit than almost any other companion, because if her tears can do what Heather's do she can always find the Doctor.

As for the Doctor himself, I'm glad he didn't regenerate here. I want to see Capaldi one last time as a Christmas present, having one more adventure with his original self. I will miss him though. I mean, I am really curious to see who's next, but it won't be the same. It never is, of course.

[Lokiberry]

34 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I came here to post my disappointment about no memory of Rory, when the Doctor was recalling his companions. I loved Rory!!! Glad to see I'm not the only one. 

Yeah, the more I think about it the more upset it's making me. It seems to me like there are only 3 possible reasons for Rory to be left out : 1.  Moffat forgot about him, 2. He didn't think he was important enough to include, unlike Jenny and Vastra, 3. Moffat's got a personal beef with Arthur Darvill. In any case, every other regular companion, and quite a few of the recurring ones, were included; it looks like the character and/or the actor was specifically snubbed.

[Mimiray802]

Damn it BBC America! I missed the 1st 30 minutes with that early start. I cried at what happened to Bill which I haven't really done in the Moffet era. When Heather showed up I cried even harder because I was so happy for her. I really think I missed out on how good Capaldi is since I zone out when Clara was there. It literally feels like this is his first year for me. The two masters were good too, kind of pervy but good.

[Lantern7]

18 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

Yeah, the more I think about it the more upset it's making me. It seems to me like there are only 3 possible reasons for Rory to be left out : 1.  Moffat forgot about him, 2. He didn't think he was important enough to include, unlike Jenny and Vastra, 3. Moffat's got a personal beef with Arthur Darvill. In any case, every other regular companion, and quite a few of the recurring ones, were included; it looks like the character and/or the actor was specifically snubbed.

That reminds me: doesn't the Doctor have a Clara-sized hole in his memory? How would he remember her? i mean, with Rory, you can say that the crack in time from Eleven's era put the Doctor into the universe where Rory no longer existed. Or maybe Moffat doesn't like it when Doctor Who actors get more roles as time-travelers.

ETA: Just found this image. As far as farewells go, I think it would be appropriate for Capaldi's Doctor to meet the original, since the actor has been a fanboy from the very beginning.

[benteen]

Great episode.  I'll give Moffat credit for this one...he finally managed to stick the landing.  Impressive and epic story.

Really strong episode for Peter Capaldi, who has gotten some of his best material this year.  He did go out heroically fighting the Cybermen though this isn't the end...yet.  On that note, Moffat owes the 10th Doctor an apology for describing his regenerating back into himself as "vanity issues".  How does he describe 12's hissy fit at the end?  That being said, that was another very strong moment for Capaldi.

A few references to Logopolis in this one, like Missy noting that she has seen the Doctor fall.  The companions montage at the end was the clearest reference to Logopolis, the Fourth Doctor's swan song.  Poor Rory and Mickey...the Doctor doesn't give a **** about them!  Appreciated seeing the much missed Sarah Jane in there though.

I have to say that the scene where Bill gets up and slowly begins to realize she's a Cyberman was great and well-edited.

Great stuff from Pearl Mackie.  She did a great job of portraying Bill as someone who had been converted into a Cyberman.  Someone speculated that Heather would return but still, I was happy that Bill was reunited with her.  It's a good resolution for her and I do hope we'll see her again one day, though that is probably unlikely.

The Master and Missy were fantastic together, particularly that gloriously insane final scene together.  I was surprised that was Missy's ultimate fate.  It was great seeing John Simm and Michelle Gomez playing off of each other.  One disappointment though is I wish The Doctor had discussed his past more with the Master and their former friendship when trying to convince the two to join him.

Nardole got a strong storyline here though my favorite part was both The Master and Missy telling him "The Doctor's dead.  He said he always hated you."

I did like Nardole's "Remember the Alamo.  Okay, maybe not."

David Bradley as The First Doctor!  I was spoiled on that for months but I don't care.  I had hoped Bradley would get the opportunity to play The First Doctor "for real" and it's exciting to see.  The Tenth Planet, the last story to feature The First Doctor, provides the perfect place to sneak in this story.  The Doctor leaves his companions at the end to return to the Tardis, which is in the Artic.  According to one website, in the original script to The Tenth Planet, the Doctor says he will not go through the change.

While not a perfect season, this was definitely the best season for the 12th Doctor, finishing up with two great episodes.

[LadyNebula]

Let me start off by saying that I'm not a Whovian. My mother (who lives with me) is a fanatic (nothing wrong with that), so I'll watch with her occasionally if I don't feel like getting off the couch.

 

I'm glad I was lazy tonight.

 

That was a brilliant episode (albeit confusing for this casual viewer).  Halfway through Capaldi's monologue about being kind, I yelled out,"Emmy reel!"  Seriously, that was award-worthy and made me see why Twelve is my mother's favorite doctor.

 

Incidentally, I'm a huge disappointment to my mother.  Her only child isn't a Whovian OR a Trekkie. The horror!  It's nice to know that you can disappoint your parents at any age...

[FiveByFive]

22 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I must admit though, I did not see Heather coming. If Bill can't be human again, at least this way she gets to continue traveling the universe at her own pace, and with a new girlfriend, so I'm okay with that. Plus, she'd have an easier time coming back for a visit than almost any other companion, because if her tears can do what Heather's do she can always find the Doctor.

They really did not do enough to establish Heather as Bill's one and only. To me it seemed like they knew each other for basically a few moments quite a while ago and then she decided, "Okay! I'm gonna run off with you despite the fact I haven't mentioned you at all in eons!"

However, Heather implied what she did was take what was left of Bill, rearrange it to be like her and she could totally put it back into human form whenever Bill wants because she can rearrange molecules. I think it was an intentionally open ending for Bill's character should Chibnall decide to pick her back up on the show. Bill knows about regeneration, isn't sure the Doctor is going to do it, doesn't entirely believe he might be dead and leaves him her tears so she can find him again. Her, "back in time for tea" seemed to imply that she would be back at some point but for now she was going to travel with Heather and show her around. 

Spoiler

Also the Doctor Who Twitter broadcast goodbye video interviews with Matt Lucas and Michelle Gomez. Pearl didn't have one.

[ganesh]

The Master is kind of pathetic in a way. There's two of them and that's how they end up. Even, "hey, I'm going to make cybermen" is kind of weak. You're a time lord and that is the best you come up with?

[madhacker]

The only thing I have to say about the ending is as of today it's 177 days till the Christmas special............god damn it.

Edited July 2, 2017 by madhacker
I suck at math

[ganesh]

34 minutes ago, benteen said:

How does he describe 12's hissy fit at the end?

I figured that Twelve just didn't live as long. Eleven said he had centuries of adventures 'off screen' (to the blue head in the box). Twelve was saddled with Clara, which he forgot, and he was at university for a long time, which is fun, but wasn't traveling, and he and Bill really didn't have a chance to go on too many adventures. There wasn't any "off-screen" references iirc. 

Would One know Twelve was him? Or is it only in reverse? I know vaguely in the classic era that there were multiple doctors, but I just don't remember if the younger ones instinctively knew the regens. Though Simm knew Missy clearly. 

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, madhacker said:

The only thing I have to say about the ending is as of today it's 542 days till the Christmas special............god damn it.

Wait, what? It's not in December 2017?

[madhacker]

like I said when I edited it...I suck at math and you should never post after taking an Ambien.

Edited July 2, 2017 by madhacker

[benteen]

8 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I figured that Twelve just didn't live as long. Eleven said he had centuries of adventures 'off screen' (to the blue head in the box). Twelve was saddled with Clara, which he forgot, and he was at university for a long time, which is fun, but wasn't traveling, and he and Bill really didn't have a chance to go on too many adventures. There wasn't any "off-screen" references iirc. 

Would One know Twelve was him? Or is it only in reverse? I know vaguely in the classic era that there were multiple doctors, but I just don't remember if the younger ones instinctively knew the regens. Though Simm knew Missy clearly. 

1 has been involved in multi-Doctor stories before so he would likely recognize him.  Although the earlier versions of The Doctor lose their memories of the encounters until they become their older counterparts.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, madhacker said:

like I said when I edited it...I suck at math and you should never post after taking an Ambien.

Whew..I'm just glad you're wrong, no offense.

[theschnauzers]

All the Doctors, including the War Doctor and Twelve, saw one another on the 50th Anniversary Special, "The Day of The Doctor," especially at the end.

[rur]

28 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I figured that Twelve just didn't live as long. Eleven said he had centuries of adventures 'off screen' (to the blue head in the box). Twelve was saddled with Clara, which he forgot, and he was at university for a long time, which is fun, but wasn't traveling, and he and Bill really didn't have a chance to go on too many adventures. There wasn't any "off-screen" references iirc. 

There was the reference in the Christmas special last year to 24 years with River Song. 

[jcin617]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

The only reason I can think of that Missy doesn't remember anything was because she's lying and said, "I loved being you" to Simm. Unless she's that old that she legitimately forgot. Or because she whacked him in the head with the umbrella, but that's kind of lame. So she had to have known that Simm was going to zap her at the end. That's a weird cycle since he's presumably going to regenerate into her and be on the other end of it. 

Missy said the reason she has no memory of the events in this episode was because their promiximity was causing their timelines to be out of sync.  It's the same thing Ten and Eleven discussed in "Day of the Doctor", once they separated the timelines would go back in sync and the past incarnations would forget everything that happened.

Although she should have remembered everything up until she showed up with the Doctor, but maybe the coming regeneration was traumatic enough to wipe the whole thing.

What's a bummer is the Doctor may never know that, in the end, the Master chose to stand with him.

Edited July 2, 2017 by jcin617

[QuantumMechanic]

I appreciated the Ainley-esque laugh as Simm-Master descended in the elevator after killing Missy.  That little, soft "heh-heh-heh-heh".

[ganesh]

13 minutes ago, rur said:

There was the reference in the Christmas special last year to 24 years with River Song. 

That's still less than 10% of Eleven. So Twelve being ticked he's had a short run is still a salient point. 

10 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

Missy said the reason she has no memory of the events in this episode was because their promiximity was causing their timelines to be out of sync.  It's the same thing Ten and Eleven discussed in "Day of the Doctor", once they separated the timelines would go back in sync and the past incarnations would forget everything that happened.

Although she should have remembered everything up until she showed up with the Doctor, but maybe the coming regeneration was traumatic enough to wipe the whole thing.

Eh, if the Doctor lies, the Master surely does. "Out of sync" sounds rather timey whimey. 

23 minutes ago, theschnauzers said:

All the Doctors, including the War Doctor and Twelve, saw one another on the 50th Anniversary Special, "The Day of The Doctor," especially at the end.

I only remember them all assembling in their respective TARDIS, but I only watched it once. I do recall Eleven seeing "old Four" face to face, but ok if they all looked at one another. 

[futurechemist]

The characterization was good. Plot less so. Why couldn't they take the lift to deck 1? Yes the Cybermen would have centuries to buikd an army. But as the Cybermen chased them, they would slow down too.

Missy killed the Master to regenerate into Missy. The Master killed Missy so nobody knew about her choosing good. Nardole will get killed by Cybermen. Bill died but was rescued by deus ex hydro. And the Doctor died but was also rescued by magic water. Nobody got a happy ending and Missy's arc was wasted.

Fridge brilliance though. Centuries have passed in the rest of the universe so Mondas never gets their desparately needed colony ship, so they make their own Cybermen and invade Earth in the 10th Planet.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

This will be the first time on the actual series that two actors would have played the same incarnation of The Doctor, although it is about 50 some years apart.

Actually, no - Bradley is the third actor to play the First Doctor on-screen, not the second. William Hartnell was the first, and then Richard Hurndall took his place 20 years later in The Five Doctors. But the First Doctor remains the only incarnation of the Doctor to have been played by multiple actors, you are right about that.

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Would One know Twelve was him? Or is it only in reverse? I know vaguely in the classic era that there were multiple doctors, but I just don't remember if the younger ones instinctively knew the regens. Though Simm knew Missy clearly. 

The Doctor usually recognises his other selves pretty quickly, yes - there have been multiple multi-Doctor stories which have established that fact. It has also been long-established that they don't remember the events of a multi-Doctor episode afterward.

After a night basking in the rosy glow of actually enjoying a Moffat finale for once, I'm back with my quibbles - because I always knew I had them. First of all, I'm annoyed that he used, basically, magic to avoid dealing with the consequences of turning Bill into a Cyberman - not to mention rehashing the exact same concept we saw with Dalek Oswin way back when, of Bill heroically being strong enough to retain her self-image after conversion, right down to believing she was still in her own body, despite the fact that the whole point of Cyber-conversion (and Dalek conversion) is to remove all emotions and individuality. So, flawed conversion or just a super-special individual to whom the rules don't apply, just because? Also, I get the happy ending-ness of it, but can't forget that Bill has only ever had, like, three conversations with Heather. And, I mean, we criticise the Classic show for having companions fall in love over the course of a single adventure and leave to be with this new partner they've only just met - this really was no different. Also, Heather's magical abilities really can't be called anything but a deus ex machina to escape a story that had plotted itself into a great big hole.

How come the explosion the Doctor triggered magically left only him and Bill standing? If it was a devastating enough blast to wipe out every single Cyberman, it should have killed both of them, as well.

Shouldn't an explosion that big have, you know, damaged the ship, thus endangering Nardole's little crew a few floors up?

Also, I'm a bit pissed that in twelve years of New Who, Martha remains the only companion who has ever chosen to walk away - it presents such a skewed impression of the show and life with the Doctor.

But most of all, I am enraged that we are apparently supposed to believe that Missy's redemption story was genuine after all, that she really did choose to turn good and help the Doctor - that after centuries of power-crazed, self-interested slaughter of, literally, billions, in every body the character has ever had, the Master would start to feel bad about it and choose to turn good because he's in a female body now. Bleurgh. Sorry, no, I don't buy it.

I did enjoy Simm and Gomez together, though. I loved the episode as a whole, really did - and I'm really excited to see the First and Twelfth Doctors together at Christmas. Dear Moffat, please don't screw it up!

[theschnauzers]

When I referenced the actual series, I was pointedly excluding the specials, especially in the years between Classic Who and New Who.  So I stand by my statement that

Quote

This will be the first time on the actual series that two actors would have played the same incarnation of The Doctor, although it is about 50 some years apart.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, theschnauzers said:

When I referenced the actual series, I was pointedly excluding the specials, especially in the years between Classic Who and New Who.  So I stand by my statement that

But why...

...sorry, do you actually believe that The Five Doctors is one of the wilderness years 'extras', like Scream of the Shalka? It isn't! It isn't even extended universe. It's an actual, proper episode of the show in exactly the same way that, for instance, The Day of the Doctor is! It aired as part of season 20 in 1983 (six years before the show went on extended hiatus, for the record), a special episode for the 20th anniversary just as Day of the Doctor was a special episode for the 50th anniversary. It is as much a part of the show as this week's episode. Hurndall played the First Doctor as part of the actual show, not as a fan-made extra.

Or did you get it confused with the Five(ish) Doctors made by Peter Davison for the 50th? That is not what I am talking about. David Bradley is the third actor to play the First Doctor as part of the real, actual show, following on from William Hartnell in 1963-66 and Richard Hurndall in 1983.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Llywela

[Primetimer]

And the story comes full circle.

View the full article

[Toaster Strudel]

Things I enjoyed.

• Nardole's sardonic humor and deadpan delivery was a welcome relief from the Clara era angst, drama, and hostility.
• Bill's enthusiasm and being spared the details of her regular life. Clara's job and love life were dragging everything down. Seeing that Bill is leaving, I hope they replace her with a similar companion.
• Michelle Gomez's Missy. Too bad she had few funny lines this season. When evil, she was deliciously evil and she had the best insults, she was so much fun. I wanted to see the same snarky, quirky Missy on the doctor's side. I feel a little robbed! Please bring her back? She's the best thing on the show. I don't think Michelle Gomez can be easily replaced, she was magnificent.
• The whole wrap up about tears, Bill, Heather, water,  in the finale that tied the whole season together. Very well done.
• The "original" doctor showing up. Goodies!

[benteen]

The current incarnation of The Doctor is the one who remembers meeting the previous Doctors.  11 said to Clara in The Time of the Doctor "Remember Captain Grumpy" a reference to the War Doctor.

Props to the make-up department for making Pearl Mackie look slightly older.  It's tougher to make a woman look 10 years older than a man.  A man you can just slap a beard on (think Ewan McGreggor in the prequels).

I didn't realize this until I read an article but Bill and Heather were apparently named after Bill and Heather Hartnell.

Edited July 2, 2017 by benteen

[clack]

There were some character reactions that I wish Moffat had found time for.

1) I wanted to see Bill give a more extensive reaction to the revelation that her friend of the last 10 years deceived and betrayed her, and had apparently viewed her with nothing but contempt the whole time he had pretended to be her friend.

2) I would have liked for the Doctor to confront the consequences of inviting Bill to go on a dangerous mission with him. He took a random, rather ordinary young woman on a rescue mission, got her killed, got her transformed into a monster, and then set her up to get killed again. No apology? No moment of self-reflection, like what is he doing continually dragging young women into life-threatening situations? Maybe time to re-think the whole companion thing?

[eleanorofaquitaine]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

But why...

...sorry, do you actually believe that The Five Doctors is one of the wilderness years 'extras', like Scream of the Shalka? It isn't! It isn't even extended universe. It's an actual, proper episode of the show in exactly the same way that, for instance, The Day of the Doctor is! It aired as part of season 20 in 1983 (six years before the show went on extended hiatus, for the record), a special episode for the 20th anniversary just as Day of the Doctor was a special episode for the 50th anniversary. It is as much a part of the show as this week's episode. Hurndall played the First Doctor as part of the actual show, not as a fan-made extra.

Or did you get it confused with the Five(ish) Doctors made by Peter Davison for the 50th? That is not what I am talking about. David Bradley is the third actor to play the First Doctor as part of the real, actual show, following on from William Hartnell in 1963-66 and Richard Hurndall in 1983.

Yep. The Five Doctors was a regular episode, with a plot that impacted the rest of the series (a. it was the plot that gave the Master his new set of regenerations and b. it was the episode that revealed that Rassilon was actually an autocratic jerk, not the good guy founder of Gallifrey).  No reason to dismiss it anymore than one can dismiss the reboot's use of Christmas specials to either further the plot or tie up loose ends.  They are all part of the actual show.

[Mabinogia]

That was some of the best Who in ages! Yes, there were problems, there always are, but OMG the characters! Pearl and Peter KILLED IT!!!!! When Bill said "they'll always be afraid of me" I lost it. Bill is up there with Donna IMO and I absolutely adore her. When I saw CyberBill walking among the devastated land alone my heart broke. So I don't care how hokey it was that Heather came and took her on a voyage through the stars, I couldn't bear the thought of Bill stuck like that, alone.

My only disappointment is that Missy is gone, and that the Doctor didn't know she was headed back to help him. That and the fact that I will never get to go on a new adventure with Twelve, Bill and Nardole. They were a great team and I will miss them very much.

I found Twelve's not wanting to regenerate very powerful. His personality changes every time he regenerates, so in a way it is a death. Though the Doctor will be back he won't be back as Twelve. Look at the Master and Missy. She is a regeneration, and though they share memories and are kind of the same, they are also vastly different. For me Twelve is dying. Thirteen will be the Doctor, but he won't be the same person he is now, so I get wanting to hold onto who he is now. I know I am fighting the regeneration as much as he is because I feel like I've only had one year with my second favorite Doctor (I barely watched when Clara was on), so I, too, am not ready to see him go.

[HauntedBathroom]

Loved this episode - I'd heard the rumours that David Bradley would be back in the Christmas special, but I didn't really believe it, and I certainly didn't expect him in this episode!! It was all round wonderful - I loved the bit where the Doctor suggested that Cybermen are just a natural evolution of humanoid life+technology. So the Cybermen came from Mondas.

And Telos.

And Planet 14.

And Marinus. The Worldshapers is canon! Sucks to be a Voord!

[John Potts]

That was good - for a Finale. It wasn't saving the Universe, or even the Earth, just a handful of kids  (and I got the impression that the writer - Moffat? - had just seen B5's Comes the Inquisitor - the bit when the Master comments that it wasn't worth dying for a handful of kids was reminiscent of "Sebastian" asking if it was worth Sheridan & Delenn dying alone & in the dark). Loved that Missy was torn between the "Angel" (Doctor) and "Devil" (SimmMaster), but that while she DID choose the Doctor, she was conflicted about it - loved that when the Doctor questioned her about the sincerity of her choice she replied (paraphrasing) "You want an honest answer to that?"

I was SO dreading we were getting the "I love you" from Bill, so I was glad we got, "I like women. And young!" And call me ageist, but I know I make it a policy not to date anyone more than a millennia older than me.

13 hours ago, Galileo908 said:

Absolutely loved Missy & The Master, there needed to be more of them. They're such giant egotists that of course they were very very close to just making out with themselves, and their stories ended with shooting each other in the back.

It's fitting that the Masters would be so egotistical that even having to accommodate another version of themselves is too much of a compromise. Though I suspect Missy could return - we didn't see her die and the Master has come back from MUCH worse.

17 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I don't care if it's another case of Moffat not being willing to kill his companions off, if Clara got immortality and her own TARDIS  while Bill died a Cyberman, I would have thrown a bitch fit you could have seen from space.

Well I DID care. I wish TPTB actually WOULD kill off a Companion, but I've been saying that since Rose's last minute rescue in Doomsday, so it's not just a Moffat thing. But instead we have to keep doing the, "Companion is dead - PSYCH!" shtick each time. Though I agree that the optics of having the first gay companion die in situations her counterparts survived would not be good.

14 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

what if the Doctor becomes brain-damaged/amnesiac, regenerates into something younger and female, and the First Doctor adopts her as his granddaughter? And the next season picks up after "The Dalek Invasion of Earth"? That's some weird-ass fanfic to be had.

Well I'd love that, but it's way too Fanficcy (and reliant on OldWho) for it to actually Canonically happen.

11 hours ago, futurechemist said:

Yes the Cybermen would have centuries to build an army. But as the Cybermen chased them, they would slow down too.

Hey, don't bring any of your "Real World Science" here! (Though I thought the same thing).

[HouseofBeck]

Wow. That scene where Nardole realizes exactly what the Doctor is saying (about who is stronger), and says that soft, "Damn," got me so in the feels.

I did want Bill to live as herself again, wasn't sure how they could unCybersize her, but just was not feeling the Heather return. It felt like a cobbled-on extra even worse than the "Here's the Doctor playing his guitar in the corner!" weird BBC extra scene they stuck in. 

Capaldi was fantastic. I agree with the sentiment that his kindness speech needs all the awards. 

I was waiting for the Cloister Bell to go off! Holding back regeneration would = mortal peril to me. 

ETA: Waiting as in expecting it to have gone off earlier than when it did. :) 

Edited July 7, 2017 by HouseofBeck