S03.E09: Fall

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I loved this penultimate ep.  I bet it is better than the season finale.

I was really hoping we were somehow getting an out-of-sequence Omaha mall scene (previews showed Jimmy in the mall).  Nice head fake by TPTB.

Loved how Howard got precisely the treatment from Chuck (in the house) that he had just given Jimmy in the garage.  It was great to finally get the specifics on Chuck's payout from HHM.  It is awesome that Howard's end game was triggered by evil incarnate (Santa Rosa insurance).  It is fantastic that the true winner in that particular triangle will be Santa Rosa.  Perfect.

Hector's playing with the Zippo lighter totally took me back to the Twilight Zone episode with Edward G. Robinson and Steve McQueen!  If you've never seen it, trust me - you must!

Spoiler

Oh, how I was hoping Lydia would have some tea with Sweet & Low during her meeting with Mike!

What kind of windfall is Jimmy looking at?  My rough calculations make his 20% of the common fund  at least $13 million ( 2/3 of 33% (which was supposedly $1.4M X 17)).  Anyone have a better number?  Thanks in advance.

I don't believe Howard would fail to investigate the heck out of how Irene came to her decision to settle, unless of course, HHM needs their share to deal with Chuck el pronto.

Boy, will I miss this show until next year.  Worse, I hate the sense of foreboding that the next one will be the last one.

[Jextella]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

I more than ever suspect Kim is going to end up partner at HHM, and Jimmy will see that as the final  betryal

Interesting theory!  

[J-Man]

Quote

Others don't really need the money now and would rather have it just go to their heirs 5 or 10 years from now so they don't end up paying taxes and then when the heirs inherit it, paying taxes a second time on the same money. 

Heirs don't generally pay income tax on inherited money. 

Quote

Hector's playing with the Zippo lighter totally took me back to the Twilight Zone episode with Edward G. Robinson and Steve McQueen!  If you've never seen it, trust me - you must!

I believe you're referring to an Alfred Hitchcock episode that starred McQueen and Peter Lorre, not Edward G. Robinson.

So Jimmy had all these clever "jokes" for nearly all of his bingo calls, but nothing for "I-25?" Interstate 25 is the major north-south freeway through Albuquerque; that would seem to have been an easy reference for him to have used. 

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Loved how Howard got precisely the treatment from Chuck (in the house) that he had just given Jimmy in the garage.  It was great to finally get the specifics on Chuck's payout from HHM.  It is awesome that Howard's end game was triggered by evil incarnate (Santa Rosa insurance).  It is fantastic that the true winner in that particular triangle will be Santa Rosa.  Perfect.

I don't know what made Howard so sure that Chuck would be happy with some law school lectures and an emeritus position at the firm.  He's on the mend, on the upswing, and now you try to push him out?  Howard is proving to be as dim as I suspected.

How does Davis and Main figure into the settlement proceeds? 

When Lydia said Gustavo was so much more than a drug dealer, I thought it was an odd thing to say to someone she does not know, or even that she acknowledged that he was one.

The photographic angles were great in this one, from the shot of Jimmy at the top of the mall stairs with the 'Crazy Eight' store sign above him to the bingo balls being injected.   

[Ottis]

Kim took on the new client for the same reason she does everything... to help Jimmy. She knows he is struggling. She also knows he won't admit it. So she is doing all she can to help him, and them, get through this year of his ban. She didn't want to hire anyone... less money for she and Jimmy. And she thinks she can handle all this. That's who Kim is. She will pay a price, and the question is, will she see Jimmy as the reason and leave, or will she drown because of him?

[benteen]

6 hours ago, PrincessSteel said:

Jimmy is either getting sloppy or cocky...going to Howard to push for a quick settlement tipped his hand. Now when poor Irene suddenly decides to settle, Howard will smell a rat. Also, Irene reminded me of my Nana. No one better mess with my Nana!

Howard should smell a rat in this case because of what Jimmy did.

While I agree that at Irene's age, she should look to settle as soon as possible, what Jimmy did was still incredibly scummy. 

[ghoulina]

Jimmy is on super thin ice with me right now. I am BEYOND pissed at him. Mrs. Landry is about the cutest thing this side of a capybara and I love her more than I can say. When he intentionally got her iced out with her friends like that, I was in tears. Actually crying in my bed. This might be the first time I've cried with this show since Chuck and his "you're not a real lawyer!" scene. So, fuck you, Jimmy/Saul. Man, he just continues to stoop to new levels with his schemes. Yes, I totally base my level of offense on the victim of his machinations. KENWINS? Fair fucking game. Mrs. Landry? Don't you even go there! 

He better hope to tell she gets back in with her buddies or he is dead to me. DEAD. 

He was really pissing me off with what a child he was acting like back at the office. Kim was trying her best to remain calm, but I might have popped him one. She's clearly working her ass off, and you want to storm in their like an entitled toddler, demanding everyone look at YOU? Fuck right off with that shit. Poor Kim. I'm glad she's physically okay, more or less, but she's pushing it too hard. 

I'm just glad Mike is on this show, because I have a feeling my rooting for Jimmy days are done. It's interesting to see how Mike gets started working with Gus. 

Hector....wtf? Why is he still around???? Poor Nacho. The look on his face when his father kicked him out just killed me. He tried, damnit. He really tried. But he'd rather keep his father safe and be a disappointment. So sad. 

Chuck has clearly lost his mind; he wants to sue EVERYONE! I'm kind of looking forward to seeing him go to toe-to-toe with Howard. I want to see what Hamlin is made of, finally. 

[Adiba]

2 hours ago, J-Man said:

Heirs don't generally pay income tax on inherited money. 

I believe you're referring to an Alfred Hitchcock episode that starred McQueen and Peter Lorre, not Edward G. Robinson.

So Jimmy had all these clever "jokes" for nearly all of his bingo calls, but nothing for "I-25?" Interstate 25 is the major north-south freeway through Albuquerque; that would seem to have been an easy reference for him to have used. 

Not an accountant, but doesn't the estate have to pay taxes before the heirs can receive any inheritance?

Jimmy's actions with Irene were scummy, but there is a point to settling quickly for the ederly. As mentioned, some could probably use the money sooner than later, either for themselves or to help family members. 

[ghoulina]

24 minutes ago, Adiba said:

Jimmy's actions with Irene were scummy, but there is a point to settling quickly for the ederly. As mentioned, some could probably use the money sooner than later, either for themselves or to help family members. 

Absolutely. His points were actually valid. But that wasn't why he was doing it. And the way he went about it, getting Mrs. Landry totally ostracized from her social circle, was just so nasty. 

[Knuckles]

8 hours ago, scenario said:

all money inherited worth over $1,000,000 pays an estate tax of 50%. I

Not true...the estate tax kicks in at 5 million...and I do think those other ladies really needed the money, now, not after they are dead. The whole point of Jimmy's meet up with Howard is that the lawyers can hold out for years for a bigger payout, but many of these seniors don't have that time. The lawyers are holding out because they want more, not that they have any concern for the senior ladies. What the lawyers are doing is not illegal, but it is ethically scummy.  And Irene, with her decision just to go along with the "professionals" is not a critical thinker...and logic or a reasoned argument would not change her mind...she would not bother to follow the thoughts. But, social isolation would change her mind. Jimmy knows how to read people...and in the end, what he did will get the money to these ladies much faster. Of course, he'll get his too, but this is the Jimmy/Saul conundrum.

I had hoped that Mike would not sign on with Lydia...silly, I know, since his first instinct is not to trust her. But it plays out the way it must. 

Love Kim...and the loyal and ever helpful Francesca...and Nacho's dad...but for decent folks, things do not end well.

[qtpye]

I know everyone really loves Nacho (as do I), but my heart was breaking for his dad.  I am aware of the horror of third world, because some of my family originates from these types of places.

I see a man who has through hard work and sacrifice able to build up a humble but thriving business as a legacy to his son.  Now that same son has chosen the cartel over his father's businesss and has delivered his family to a madman who will happily destroy everything his father has worked so hard to build.   All his sacrifice has turned to dust because of his son's greed for drug money.

[scenario]

3 hours ago, J-Man said:

Heirs don't generally pay income tax on inherited money. 

I believe you're referring to an Alfred Hitchcock episode that starred McQueen and Peter Lorre, not Edward G. Robinson.

So Jimmy had all these clever "jokes" for nearly all of his bingo calls, but nothing for "I-25?" Interstate 25 is the major north-south freeway through Albuquerque; that would seem to have been an easy reference for him to have used. 

The elderly person would pay income tax on the money. This is the first tax. Then if the elderly person's estate is already worth over $1 million dollars, which it could be if you include savings and the sale of their primary home, the heirs have to pay an inheritance tax of 50% on the settlement money portion of the inheritance.  (The limit is now on any inheritance over around $5 million so very few people end up paying it. At the time of the show it was around $1 million.)

So the elderly person get's $60,000. They pay 1/3 in taxes so they get $40,000. They already have an estate of $1 million so they are now worth $1,060,000 million. The die. Their heirs now have to pay an inheritance tax of 50% on the portion of the estate over $1 million. So they end up paying a tax of $20,000 of the $40,000 that the elderly person had left from the settlement. So the heirs end up with $20,000 out of the original $60,000. If the case wasn't settled, they would not have to pay the inheritance tax. They would only pay the income tax on what would probably be a larger amount of money.  So they might get $75,000 and pay 1/3 in taxes and end up with $50,000 rather than $20,000. 

If the elderly person is living a comfortable life, they might be just as happy to wait. 

[scenario]

33 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Not true...the estate tax kicks in at 5 million...and I do think those other ladies really needed the money, now, not after they are dead. The whole point of Jimmy's meet up with Howard is that the lawyers can hold out for years for a bigger payout, but many of these seniors don't have that time. The lawyers are holding out because they want more, not that they have any concern for the senior ladies. What the lawyers are doing is not illegal, but it is ethically scummy.  And Irene, with her decision just to go along with the "professionals" is not a critical thinker...and logic or a reasoned argument would not change her mind...she would not bother to follow the thoughts. But, social isolation would change her mind. Jimmy knows how to read people...and in the end, what he did will get the money to these ladies much faster. Of course, he'll get his too, but this is the Jimmy/Saul conundrum.

I had hoped that Mike would not sign on with Lydia...silly, I know, since his first instinct is not to trust her. But it plays out the way it must. 

Love Kim...and the loyal and ever helpful Francesca...and Nacho's dad...but for decent folks, things do not end well.

The estate tax kicks in at $5 million in 2017. This show took place 15 years ago. Google "federal estate tax exemption in 2002."  Not all elderly people are poor. If they are already living a comfortable life on their current savings, they might prefer to wait for a larger settlement a few years down the line when they'll need it more. Others will want the settlement now. 

I agree that Irene is not the one to make the decision. That's why I think that all of the lawyers are being unethical in this case. Jimmy's handling of the case is terrible and offensive. The official lawyers are keeping most of the elderly clients out of the loop and relying on one trusting compliant person to make all of the decisions for the rest of the people. No one looks good in this situation. 

[ghoulina]

47 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

I know everyone really loves Nacho (as do I), but my heart was breaking for his dad.  I am aware of the horror of third world, because some of my family originates from these types of places.

I see a man who has through hard work and sacrifice able to build up a humble but thriving business as a legacy to his son.  Now that same son has chosen the cartel over his father's businesss and has delivered his family to a madman who will happily destroy everything his father has worked so hard to build.   All his sacrifice has turned to dust because of his son's greed for drug money.

 

Oh, absolutely. But I think the loss of his son to that world kills him even more than what will happen to his business. It's an all around horrible situation, and I think Nacho knows how badly he's fucked it up for his dad too. I felt for both of them in that scene. Very well done, across the board. 

[scenario]

It's funny that people are turning on Jimmy. Anyone who watched BB knows that Saul was a total Ahole. The whole point of the show to me is that you've got a person Jimmy who is basically good but who has bad tendencies when the going gets tough. He always takes the easy way out. Chuck was right about Jimmy in the rant in the first season. Jimmy will do the right thing when it's convenient for him. If things are tough, he'll take the path of least resistance. 

The point to me is that Chuck was right about Jimmy but he then pushed Jimmy into becoming Saul. If he had supported Jimmy, and not undercut him at every step, Jimmy would have a nice practice in elder law making good money with Kim at his side. Saul would have never come out.  

Jimmy and Chuck had a feedback loop going with brought out the worst in both of them and will end up destroying both.

[Eulipian 5k]

43 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Jimmy needs to save Jimmy.  Kim can't do that for him.  No one can stop Jimmy from being self-destructive, not even Kim.

Interesting view given that Kim once cautioned Jimmy with ~ "You don't save me, only I can save me"

[peeayebee]

10 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Maybe I'm too charitable, but I think Jimmy wanted his payout and for the old folks to get their money before they died. 

I think 99% motivation was for himself. There had to be another way to get Irene to insist to the lawyers on a settlement. At least Jimmy was still Jimmy in going to Howard to try to reason with him. When that failed, he turned more "Saul." I know he couldn't act the lawyer, but just like he visited Irene with the cookies, he could have visited one or more of the other residents ostensibly to see how they were doing and work that way. Instead he acted immorally, setting up Irene to be the bad guy. Even though he hesitated before he put in the doctored bingo balls, I think he felt himself enjoying the game, the scam. Notice how he fiddled with Marco's ring. 

However, I agree that the best thing was for the lawyers to settle. Not all the residents may live long enough to wait years or months. 

 

10 hours ago, Jextella said:

A bit after the fact, the runny mascara all over Kim's eyes seems like it would take some time to happen....kinda like she may have been knocked out for awhile after the accident took place. 

I thought she had black eyes from the impact of the air bag.

 

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

The photographic angles were great in this one, from the shot of Jimmy at the top of the mall stairs with the 'Crazy Eight' store sign above him ...

Really? I missed that. Rewatch!

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, scenario said:

It's funny that people are turning on Jimmy. Anyone who watched BB knows that Saul was a total Ahole. The whole point of the show to me is that you've got a person Jimmy who is basically good but who has bad tendencies when the going gets tough. He always takes the easy way out. Chuck was right about Jimmy in the rant in the first season. Jimmy will do the right thing when it's convenient for him. If things are tough, he'll take the path of least resistance. 

The point to me is that Chuck was right about Jimmy but he then pushed Jimmy into becoming Saul. If he had supported Jimmy, and not undercut him at every step, Jimmy would have a nice practice in elder law making good money with Kim at his side. Saul would have never come out.  

Jimmy and Chuck had a feedback loop going with brought out the worst in both of them and will end up destroying both.

Earlier this season I think some posters were saying by the end of the season they would probably end up disliking Jimmy and liking Chuck better, essentially that the writing would help our sympathies flip.  It's kind of working that way for me, what with Jimmy messing with Irene, and I would not mind seeing Chuck best Howard. 

28 minutes ago, scenario said:

If the elderly person is living a comfortable life, they might be just as happy to wait. 

They may be comfortable enough, but they are in assisted living.  That means they have in all likelihood sold their old home.  The ladies were quick to be envious of Irene's expensive walking shoes, so they might actually be having to watch their pennies, and a payout sooner than later would benefit them in life rather than their heirs after they departed. 

[Bryce Lynch]

12 hours ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

I was so aftraid Kim's car was going to disappear into a sink hole, since they were talking about salt domes.

Oh, hell!, what happened now?! The tire may have weakened when it rolled over the board. Aww, Kim.

Air bags are the devil himself, folks.

I think the airbags probably saved Kim's life.  

[luna1122]

I will never like Chuck, but my love for Jimmy is slipping (ha), and it's sad. Expected, because while Saul was always entertaining, he was a douchebag, but still sad. Irene's sweet little face as she crumpled into tears was heartbreaking. I do believe Jimmy DOES want what's best for the clients too, as in, why not get their money now...and I completely understand his motivations for wanting the money for them and mostly, for himself, but his methods here were so ugly. And Irene might full well realize the extent of his machinations if she gets back in good with her friends and they talk about why they froze her out. His 'ends always justify the means' outlook is so not pretty. Also, where did he get the $$ for all those shoes,  and the fugly white track suit to mall walk in? Loved the Crazy 8 store.

I was almost certain Kim was going to wind up dead at the end of this episode. Very happy the accident that was obviously about to happen didn't kill her. Watching this show, and Kim in particular, I can't think of a profession I'd less want to have than being an attorney. She is empty, joyless, exhausted, depleted...and I'm uncertain just what for. Ambition, payback, proving herself, money...none of those are worth what she is putting herself thru. And sadly, at this point, that includes Jimmy. I wish she'd move far away and, I don't know, open a B&B or something.

[toodles]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

Not an accountant, but doesn't the estate have to pay taxes before the heirs can receive any inheritance?

Jimmy's actions with Irene were scummy, but there is a point to settling quickly for the ederly. As mentioned, some could probably use the money sooner than later, either for themselves or to help family members. 

That's one of the reasons I love this show.  Nothing is ever black and white.  The Irene scenes were tough to watch.  But in my line of work, I have a lot of senior clients.  I'm a travel agent and my clients are frequently waiting for whatever it is they want to do to come down in price.  Do it now is my motto.  Too often life happens while they are waiting and they miss their chance.

While Jimmy's motives to take the settlement were self serving, I think the advice was sound.  Take the money and enjoy it.

I hated what he did to Irene.  It broke my heart and made me hate Jimmy a little bit.

[Bryce Lynch]

I was flipping back and forth between BCS and the NBA Finals, so I need to watch again, but a few thoughts.

1) Jimmy was despicable for turning all the old ladies against Irene.  Scamming jerks in bars, his brother, etc. is one thing, but being so mean to Irene was over the line. 

2) I liked Chuck in fighting mode.  Howard deserves whatever Chuck does to him for trying to push him out now.  If he had done it earlier, before he made such progress,  I could have understood it more.  Chuck is officially the more likable (or less detestable) McGill brother in my book...at least for now.  

3) Kim's crash was just like the foreshadowing when the cell phone alarm suddenly woke her up after seemingly almost no time had passed.  I loved the way they didn't show her dozing off, just the aftermath.  

4) I loved the Madrigal scene. As soon as I saw the guy zipping down the hall on the segway I thought "Madrigal?"

5) It seem like Hector might have gotten himself clipped by the cartel before long even if Nacho hadn't switched his pills.  You don't disrespect a man like Don Eladio.  

6) I am wondering if Kim's crash, rather than alienating her, might push her back into Jimmy's arms, with bad long term consequences.  

[scenario]

33 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Earlier this season I think some posters were saying by the end of the season they would probably end up disliking Jimmy and liking Chuck better, essentially that the writing would help our sympathies flip.  It's kind of working that way for me, what with Jimmy messing with Irene, and I would not mind seeing Chuck best Howard. 

They may be comfortable enough, but they are in assisted living.  That means they have in all likelihood sold their old home.  The ladies were quick to be envious of Irene's expensive walking shoes, so they might actually be having to watch their pennies, and a payout sooner than later would benefit them in life rather than their heirs after they departed. 

If they are in assisted living and the government is paying for it, they won't see a dime of the settlement money anyway. The government will take it. 

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, chick binewski said:

I thought this was one of the better episodes of the series. I'm hating that next week is the finale but hoping we get broader glimpse at flash-forward Cinnabon. I'm also really wanting to see both Kim and Fring background next season.

I loathe Lydia but love Laura Fraser's portrayal of her as a rubber band about to snap. From the way the scene was shot I assumed Fraser was pregnant but I'm not sure that's correct.  

Ah, I didn't catch the pregnancy.  It would seem to fit the BB timeline pretty well as Kiira seemed be about 4 or 5 in season 5 of BB.  

[Atlanta]

Airbags do pack a wallop. My sister got a fat lip from one. 

Poor sweet Irene! I'm normally cheering for Jimmy to prevail, but hated how he did it. MBTs aren't cheap. Where did he get the cash to buy all of those? Hopefully he can return them or eBay 'em off. I thought it was funny he gave an elderly lady that brand. The curved bottom is so you also have to balance yourself more than in regular shoes. They're designed to make exercise a little more challenging. 

Feel so bad for Kim. Hopefully she doesn't lose the oil client (my mind is going blank on the name) and maybe HHM will extend an olive branch and make her a partner. She's proven she can bring in very large clients, that she's a talented lawyer and her clients adore her and only want to deal with her.

Good catch on Lydia probably being pregnant with Kiira. 

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, chick binewski said:

 

Was it merely internet guessing or did BB imply Fring was somehow tied to Pinochet? Hector alluded to him no longer having a particular kind of protection he had while in Chile, while Hank (RIP) said he found nothing about Fring while looking into his background prior to Mexico. Whatever the case I hope we see more Giancarlo next season.

Hector also derisively referred to Fring as "grand generalissimo" during a phone conversation in a flashback to the 1980s in BB.  

[MisterBluxom]

7 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I loved this penultimate ep.  I bet it is better than the season finale.

I was really hoping we were somehow getting an out-of-sequence Omaha mall scene (previews showed Jimmy in the mall).  Nice head fake by TPTB.

Loved how Howard got precisely the treatment from Chuck (in the house) that he had just given Jimmy in the garage.  It was great to finally get the specifics on Chuck's payout from HHM.  It is awesome that Howard's end game was triggered by evil incarnate (Santa Rosa insurance).  It is fantastic that the true winner in that particular triangle will be Santa Rosa.  Perfect.

Hector's playing with the Zippo lighter totally took me back to the Twilight Zone episode with Edward G. Robinson and Steve McQueen!  If you've never seen it, trust me - you must!

  Reveal hidden contents

Oh, how I was hoping Lydia would have some tea with Sweet & Low during her meeting with Mike!

What kind of windfall is Jimmy looking at?  My rough calculations make his 20% of the common fund  at least $13 million ( 2/3 of 33% (which was supposedly $1.4M X 17)).  Anyone have a better number?  Thanks in advance.

I don't believe Howard would fail to investigate the heck out of how Irene came to her decision to settle, unless of course, HHM needs their share to deal with Chuck el pronto.

Boy, will I miss this show until next year.  Worse, I hate the sense of foreboding that the next one will be the last one.

 

I searched the IMDB listings for both Steve McQueen and Edward G. Robinson. Neither have any entry for "Twilight Zone".

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000064/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000537/

Are you certain you aren't thinking of some other actors? Or maybe some other show?

I recently had a marathon Twilight Zone session and watched most every episode. I don't ever recall seeing Steve McQueen.

18 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I will never like Chuck, but my love for Jimmy is slipping (ha), and it's sad. Expected, because while Saul was always entertaining, he was a douchebag, but still sad. Irene's sweet little face as she crumpled into tears was heartbreaking. I do believe Jimmy DOES want what's best for the clients too, as in, why not get their money now...and I completely understand his motivations for wanting the money for them and mostly, for himself, but his methods here were so ugly. And Irene might full well realize the extent of his machinations if she gets back in good with her friends and they talk about why they froze her out. His 'ends always justify the means' outlook is so not pretty. Also, where did he get the $$ for all those shoes,  and the fugly white track suit to mall walk in? Loved the Crazy 8 store.

I was almost certain Kim was going to wind up dead at the end of this episode. Very happy the accident that was obviously about to happen didn't kill her. Watching this show, and Kim in particular, I can't think of a profession I'd less want to have than being an attorney. She is empty, joyless, exhausted, depleted...and I'm uncertain just what for. Ambition, payback, proving herself, money...none of those are worth what she is putting herself thru. And sadly, at this point, that includes Jimmy. I wish she'd move far away and, I don't know, open a B&B or something.

But what about Howard? That jerk doesn't extend himself in the least. He cashes in on a luxury lifestyle by shorting and taking advantage of others - especially the vulnerable (like those senior citizens). He is a real rat and is perhaps close to the worst specimen of a lawyer. He lives high on the hog but does very little himself.

[nodorothyparker]

This episode was great in showing just how thin the line that separates Jimmy from Saul really is in that the same skill set that made Jimmy so beloved by seniors in working for them could also very easily be turned against them.  The real difference is the motivation.  When Jimmy was so doggedly pursuing a legitimate career in elder law that he believed would make him a respectable fit in Chuck and Kim's world all his worst impulses were kept at bay.  But now that he's had a taste of hustling and still has 12 months more stretching out in front him, it's all about the easiest way to a quick buck and who trusts him more than those nice old ladies who can make that happen for him?

As has already been pointed out, the thing is that he's not wrong in arguing that waiting for a larger settlement that many of these seniors may not live to see mostly benefits the lawyers.  It seemed clear in those scenes first with Irene and then with the group that no one has really taken the time to explain that to any of them so an informed decision could be made.  But that's at best a distant secondary motivation for Jimmy.  His isolating Irene for his own ends was so predatory it was breathtaking.

Loved Howard calling Jimmy Gollum, but I'm not sure how much sympathy I really have for Howard or how much I'm even supposed to have.  He's been placating and coddling Chuck all the way along because it benefited him and HHM, even going along with Chuck's scorched earth entrapment of Jimmy when it should have been clear to him that that was more about destroying his brother than the rule of law.  Only now that it's causing problems with clients and about to seriously cost the firm money is it an issue for him.  What possibly made him think Chuck would go quietly now or see reason to have a nice tasteful retirement party after their earlier blowup?  Chuck will happily burn it all down as long as he gets to be right and gets what he wants, as Howard's about to get a firsthand taste of.  I've long believed HHM wouldn't survive this series, a casualty of the McGill brothers' war, and now I feel pretty sure of it.

Kim really needs to hire some help.  I felt bad for Nacho's father, who's apparently already gone at least one round of his son doing bad things for pay for the Salamancas only to find out that not only is he doing it again but he's endangered the family business.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

It's funny that people are turning on Jimmy. Anyone who watched BB knows that Saul was a total Ahole. The whole point of the show to me is that you've got a person Jimmy who is basically good but who has bad tendencies when the going gets tough. He always takes the easy way out. Chuck was right about Jimmy in the rant in the first season. Jimmy will do the right thing when it's convenient for him. If things are tough, he'll take the path of least resistance. 

The point to me is that Chuck was right about Jimmy but he then pushed Jimmy into becoming Saul. If he had supported Jimmy, and not undercut him at every step, Jimmy would have a nice practice in elder law making good money with Kim at his side. Saul would have never come out.  

Jimmy and Chuck had a feedback loop going with brought out the worst in both of them and will end up destroying both.

I disagree.  First, Chuck did encourage and advise Jimmy in his legal career, he even did a bunch of his will for him.  The only thing he did wrong in that area was not be honest with Jimmy about not wanting him at HHM.   Secondly, despite Chuck not fully backing him, Jimmy fell assbackwards into a GREAT job at D&M, but chose to throw it away.  He then chose to sabotage Chuck and MV., leading to his suspension.  Slippin' Jimmy/Saul Goodman was always lurking underneath and would probably have overcome "good Jimmy" eventually no matter what. Chuck did.    

28 minutes ago, scenario said:

If they are in assisted living and the government is paying for it, they won't see a dime of the settlement money anyway. The government will take it. 

That is not true.  Sandpiper is a privately run assisted living facility and the residents, not the government, were being (over) billed for their services.  

[Bryce Lynch]

30 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

 

I searched the IMDB listings for both Steve McQueen and Edward G. Robinson. Neither have any entry for "Twilight Zone".

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000064/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000537/

Are you certain you aren't thinking of some other actors? Or maybe some other show?

I recently had a marathon Twilight Zone session and watched most every episode. I don't ever recall seeing Steve McQueen.

But what about Howard? That jerk doesn't extend himself in the least. He cashes in on a luxury lifestyle by shorting and taking advantage of others - especially the vulnerable (like those senior citizens). He is a real rat and is perhaps close to the worst specimen of a lawyer. He lives high on the hog but does very little himself.

It is not clear that Howard is taking advantage of the seniors.  I'm not even sure if he is the one advising the clients on whether to accept or reject offers or if D&M is doing that.  Kim was very surprised to hear the case was being settled so quickly, which suggested to me that Jimmy was pushing for a premature settlement for far less than they could get down the road.  

His despicable behavior in turning the ladies against Irene also makes me doubt his motives were in any way pure.  He hurt her far more than Sandpiper.  Sandpiper took some of her money from her, Jimmy took away all of her friends.  

Did anyone else get a "Green Grove" (nursing home on the "Sopranos") vibe from the old ladies.  It reminded me a lot of Paulies "mom" being ostracized.  

Edited June 13, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[ShadowFacts]

20 minutes ago, scenario said:

If they are in assisted living and the government is paying for it, they won't see a dime of the settlement money anyway. The government will take it. 

Medicare doesn't usually pay for assisted living, there needs to be illness or disability involved and these ladies look pretty good.  Medicaid reimbursement rates are not high, if a facility even accepts Medicaid.  Irene's apartment looked pretty nice, brick interior wall, pool outside.  I doubt the place is getting government reimbursement, or Sandpiper's billing practices would have them in big trouble for Medicare fraud.  I bet these are mostly widows who are living on their Social Security and other savings/investment income. 

 

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Slippin' Jimmy/Saul Goodman was always lurking underneath and would probably have overcome "good Jimmy" eventually no matter what. Chuck did.    

I agree that all aspects of his personality were always present.  Same with Chuck.  Jimmy held his bad impulses in check for many years.  There's no way to know for certain that he could not have kept that up, under the right conditions.  The tragedy is that both of these brothers had a fair amount of good will for each other right alongside their resentments.  They helped each other, Jimmy doing so very assiduously when Chuck was in the throes of his anxiety disorder.  They have now brought out the worst in each other.  Can the pendulum swing again?  I wouldn't have thought so but now Howard may be the common enemy so who knows?

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

Medicare doesn't usually pay for assisted living, there needs to be illness or disability involved and these ladies look pretty good.  Medicaid reimbursement rates are not high, if a facility even accepts Medicaid.  Irene's apartment looked pretty nice, brick interior wall, pool outside.  I doubt the place is getting government reimbursement, or Sandpiper's billing practices would have them in big trouble for Medicare fraud.  I bet these are mostly widows who are living on their Social Security and other savings/investment income. 

 

I agree that all aspects of his personality were always present.  Same with Chuck.  Jimmy held his bad impulses in check for many years.  There's no way to know for certain that he could not have kept that up, under the right conditions.  The tragedy is that both of these brothers had a fair amount of good will for each other right alongside their resentments.  They helped each other, Jimmy doing so very assiduously when Chuck was in the throes of his anxiety disorder.  They have now brought out the worst in each other.  Can the pendulum swing again?  I wouldn't have thought so but now Howard may be the common enemy so who knows?

I was also wondering if the McGill brothers might call a truce and become allies or co-belligerents against Howard.  

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

They may be comfortable enough, but they are in assisted living.  That means they have in all likelihood sold their old home.  The ladies were quick to be envious of Irene's expensive walking shoes, so they might actually be having to watch their pennies, and a payout sooner than later would benefit them in life rather than their heirs after they departed. 

Was it really about needing the money or was it about feeling like Irene was being cavalier about the money being offered?  I'm not certain about the set up but it seems they were perfectly content to let Irene be the point person in the lawsuit until Jimmy sewed the seeds that she might not have the group's best interests at heart.  

And we don't know that the lawyers are being ethically unfair to their clients.  Erin, IIRC, was a strict, by-the-book lawyer from Davis and Main who worked with Jimmy.  She presented the offer to Irene.  She also likely said that she thinks they could get more.  The seniors get me make the choice whether or not to settle.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Irlandesa

[beeziebee]

Hey!  Did I spot Bonnie Bartlett (St. Elsewhere, among other things) among the mall walkers?  It's good to see these familiar faces!

[luna1122]

3 minutes ago, beeziebee said:

Hey!  Did I spot Bonnie Bartlett (St. Elsewhere, among other things) among the mall walkers?  It's good to see these familiar faces!

I thought it was her at first, and then I didn't, and then I did, and so on. She's not listed on IMDB or Wikipedia as having been on, but a google search brought up a couple reviews that mention that it was her, so...I guess it was?

 

58 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

 

But what about Howard? That jerk doesn't extend himself in the least. He cashes in on a luxury lifestyle by shorting and taking advantage of others - especially the vulnerable (like those senior citizens). He is a real rat and is perhaps close to the worst specimen of a lawyer. He lives high on the hog but does very little himself.

What about Howard? Howard is a dick. it's funny that I have found the actor really attractive in previous roles, namely on Veronica Mars, even tho he played an amoral college professor who wound up killing his married girlfriend, but he had layers of complexity and he was, you know, sexy. Howard may have some layers, but sexy he is not.

[LuciaMia]

Quote

He's on the mend, on the upswing, and now you

Chuck may think he's getting better and more able to tolerate electrical currents, but he's far from being on the upswing. As Howard observed when Chuck was gripping that table lamp, "This is not what 'fine' looks like." Chuck looks pretty haggard and its obvious he's white-knuckling all his forays   outside.

[Primetimer]

Even relationships you wouldn't think could get any worse.

View the full article

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

Was it really about needing the money or was it about feeling like Irene was being cavalier about the money being offered?  I'm not certain about the set up but it seems they were perfectly content to let Irene be the point person in the lawsuit until Jimmy sewed the seeds that she might not have the group's best interests at heart.  

Maybe some of both -- Jimmy did his peanut demo which goes to the amount of money they might be getting.  Irene clearly didn't know what was even going on, she just put papers in a box without understanding them.  It would have been nice if at least one of the ladies had been able to be direct with Irene in bringing up the topic and asking a few questions.  I know this is a realistic portrayal of the dynamic at some assisted living places, my grandma was in one and it was not pretty sometimes.  But in a group there is often at least one person who will take the logical, no-nonsense route and want to get to the bottom of things.  Retirees aren't all feebleminded sheeple.  I wish at least one of her friends had been up to the task and not taken Jimmy's bait. 

[J-Man]

Quote

I searched the IMDB listings for both Steve McQueen and Edward G. Robinson. Neither have any entry for "Twilight Zone".

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000064/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000537/

Are you certain you aren't thinking of some other actors? Or maybe some other show?

I recently had a marathon Twilight Zone session and watched most every episode. I don't ever recall seeing Steve McQueen.

I addressed this upthread. The original poster must have been confused because it was an Alfred Hitchcock episode with McQueen and Peter Lorre. 

[PrincessSteel]

Reading all of these comments, I suddenly got a bad feeling about Irene's fate. There has to be one more big push towards Saul this season. What happened to Kim is awful but not serious and Chuck already hates Jimmy. To have Irene meet with some really horrible outcome because of Jimmy's machinations would be just terrible and would shred the last thin thread that is binding Jimmy to his better nature. 'You should listen to your heart' is the last thing that Jimmy said to Irene (or words to that effect); I am just imagining all the ways that advice can go wrong for her.

[ShellSeeker]

I'm posting this preemptively. There have been some posts discussing estate taxes and how they work. If there's anything in this world duller and more mind-numbing than legal minutiae, it's the ins and outs of the Internal Revenue Code (so says the mod with an accounting degree). If you want to continue to discuss that topic, please take it to the Legally Speaking thread. Estate taxes are not relevant to this episode.

Thanks.

[PhilMarlowe2]

15 hours ago, Christina said:

That Chuck; what a nice guy. It's easy to see why everyone loves him. 

I can't wait to see Hamlin settle the Sandpiper case due to Jimmy's actions and come up with the $8 million to pay off Chuck, waiving goodbye to a man who thinks he is the smartest person in the room. Then, Hamlin will get another huge case, maybe off the back of Kim, and everyone moves forward except Chuck. 

I actually had a feeling that now Hamlin is going to have a much better understanding of what Jimmy has been dealing with in Chuck all these years - the vengeful, passive-aggressive, petty man behind the mask - and that he might end up entering into some kind of unlikely alliance with Jimmy to take Chuck down - and this might be the thing that ultimately completes Jimmy's transformation into full-on Saul.

 

12 hours ago, scenario said:

That's the thing about the suit. Some of the seniors could use the money. With some of the others, they might in a situation where if they got a windfall, the government might just end up taking it all anyway. Others don't really need the money now and would rather have it just go to their heirs 5 or 10 years from now so they don't end up paying taxes and then when the heirs inherit it, paying taxes a second time on the same money.  In those years, all money inherited worth over $1,000,000 pays an estate tax of 50%. If they've already got over a million in the bank, they might just prefer their heirs to just directly receive the payment so the heirs don't have to pay both income and inheritance tax. 

The seniors should have been given a choice in terms they understand. It seems like Irene really didn't understand what's going on and just trusted the lawyers. That's a bit unethical from the lawyer's side. All of the other seniors should be in the loop.

None of this makes what Jimmy did any better.

I would go a step further to say that, in my mind, Hamlin is no different than Jimmy - he can stand on a his high horse all he wants, but at the end of the day, Hamlin is holding out for his own benefit, and does that make him much better than Jimmy? Where is his tin cup? I was hoping Jimmy would point out they are actualy the same.

[ShellSeeker]

4 minutes ago, PhilMarlowe2 said:

I actually had a feeling that now Hamlin is going to have a much better understanding of what Jimmy has been dealing with in Chuck all these years - the vengeful, passive-aggressive, petty man behind the mask - and that he might end up entering into some kind of unlikely alliance with Jimmy to take Chuck down - and this might be the thing that ultimately completes Jimmy's transformation into full-on Saul.

Responding to this in the Speculation thread.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

When Jimmy was so doggedly pursuing a legitimate career in elder law that he believed would make him a respectable fit in Chuck and Kim's world all his worst impulses were kept at bay.  But now that he's had a taste of hustling and still has 12 months more stretching out in front him, it's all about the easiest way to a quick buck and who trusts him more than those nice old ladies who can make that happen for him?

I think Jimmy tends to rationalize things in his mind as he's just hurting one person a little to help another a lot. With the Mesa Verde thing, he rationalized that he was hurting Chuck a little in order to help Kim a lot. (That's why he was so taken aback when he realized he HAD hurt Chuck a lot, and made the confession).

I think he's probably thinking now that he's hurting Irene a little in order to help himself a lot. He probably hardened his heart by thinking, what's Irene's pain over a probably-temporary falling out with some superficial friends at the assisted living compound, compared to what a lifesaver this money will be to Jimmy? This rift with her friends will blow over eventually, and taking the settlement now is a reasonably good decision for them anyway. And he's clearly built up in his mind how much this money would change things for him, how much it will help him. His "our troubles are over!" exclamation to Kim was as delusional as Chuck clinging to the lamp and saying he was all better now.

In a practical sense, Jimmy's money problems are really not that bad right now. He's got that music store payout to pay the rent, he's crashing with Kim and I doubt has very high living expenses, etc. He's so desperate for this money for emotional reasons at least as much as practical ones IMO. It probably represents security, power, and success to him -- like most people. He won't be an anxious, powerless scumbag that everyone looks their noses down on once he has money. Etc.

But what bothers me is how cold and predatory he was with Irene. He set her up to get hurt, and when he SAW -- literally saw with his own two eyes -- her get hurt, he went in for the kill without a second thought, what with his "listen to your heart." Oh no, of course he wasn't going to TELL her what to do about the settlement, that could cost him his share. He was just going to get her friends to bully her for him.

I really doubt that Saul has millions in the bank, though, so I figure this is going to blow up in Jimmy's face somehow. Howard was 100% correct that Jimmy needed to just be patient and stay out of it, and wait to collect his enormous payday in time. But Jimmy ALWAYS sabotages himself, so of course Jimmy wasn't going to do that, he had to get busy fucking things up for himself somehow. Knowing him, he'll probably find some way to violate his PPD while he loses his claim on the biggest payout of his career, while he's at it.

It's easy to write Howard off as a lightweight, but he's managed to do something that Jimmy, Chuck, and Nacho haven't -- take over the family business and actually be a reasonably good steward of it.

Anyway, what was especially...eerie, I guess? is that Jimmy clearly understands how important relationships and personal feelings are, or else he wouldn't have known to put the thumbscrews to Irene by cutting her off from her friends. He knew that she would be desperate to finish the case once she was rejected and alone, and she was. The size of the payout doesn't really matter to her in comparison with her pain over losing her friends. That he would understand that, and yet STILL "sell his soul for BINGO," STILL cut himself off from everyone and his own feelings in pursuit of a cash grab, is mind-boggling. Does he not actually understand that Irene isn't going to be able to buy her way out of her unhappiness with her settlement money, and that he isn't going to be able to buy happiness with his share, either? Maybe not, based on how he was celebrating with that tequila.

Anyway, another thing that's kind of wild IMO is that I don't actually think that Saul was so awful. He abetted a lot of violent, terrifying actions on Walt's part, and he was a sleaze, a criminal, etc. But I didn't ever think he was a cruel person himself. I mean, even in his last moments with Walt, he tried to find a way for Skyler to come out of things OK. I dunno, we can debate all that elsewhere on the forum probably. But my point is that I think that what Jimmy did to Irene is actually already on par with the amount of cruelty and ruthlessness he showed as Saul. Saul seemed more confident, secure, and happier, than Jimmy is right now, and I wonder what goes RIGHT for Jimmy that he becomes more like that.

[benteen]

10 hours ago, knaankos said:

I have been getting annoyed at Kim all season for basically forcing herself to live her life in the most unpleasant way possible. Why is she breaking her own back for this? She's not even using the vast amounts of money she must be making. Remember when she showered at the gym in the morning rather than at a home? She doesn't seem like a particularly proud person so it's not as if she's trying to prove someone wrong. I guess she's just one of those people who literally cannot stand being idle. We all know people like that, and Kim takes it to an extreme. It's finally costing her here. 

Yeah, I don't get the whole showering at the gym thing. 

She must be making enough money to hire some extra help...at least a paralegal or two.

[atlantaloves]

The old television episode about the zippo lighter and missing fingers you guys keep talking about is actually from the old Alfred Hitchcock Presents episode called The Man from the South, and it was Steve McQueen. Made around 1959 or so? Good old Mr. Dahl wrote it. It's one of the best episodes ever. 

[Constantinople]

I found Jimmy rather dull this episode.

That said I'm starting to wonder if he changes his professional name because Chuck puts the name McGill in such a bad odor.

[Ohwell]

What Jimmy did was desperate and sleazy but I don't hate him.  I just felt badly for him that he had to stoop so low but when you're desperate for money......well, at least he didn't rob a bank.   Those old ladies were so sweet but it was kind of funny to see them gradually turn on Irene like mean girls.  

Nacho's conversation with his father was painful to watch.  It broke my heart when he quietly took the glass off the table, emptied it in the kitchen sink, and then left. 

And I still hate Chuck with all my heart. 

[Ottis]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Jimmy needs to save Jimmy.  Kim can't do that for him.  No one can stop Jimmy from being self-destructive, not even Kim.

Right now, I think Jimmy is in the Jimmy/Saul transition.  He hasn't gone full Saul yet, but he is no longer "pure" Jimmy either.

Exactly, and he won't save himself. We already know he won't, because we know about Breaking Bad. So what are the ramifications for Kim in BCS? I think that just as Jimmy is Slipping Jimmy, Kim is also, in her life, The Rescuer. She takes on burdens of others to help them, almost like an older sister who watched her younger sibling. She likes to do a good job, and she believes in hard work leading to success. They are each being who they are. I just hope Kim survives her intersection with Jimmy. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Ottis

[PeterPirate]

BCS Lydia is calm, cool and collected. I wonder if we will see her go through a series of events that transform her into her BB version. 

I think it plausible that some lawyer from Davis & Main or HHM will contact Irene and find out that Jimmy has been in contact with her. For that matter, I think she will be become popular again at the nursing home and may tell her friends about the free walking shoes.  Jimmy could end up forfeiting his share of the Sandpiper payout.  

I don't understand the meaning of this episode's title. 

I have a different take on Jimmy than most, it seems. I don't see any difference between the Jimmy who tormented Irene and the one who dumped a load into the car of someone he didn't like. I have zero doubt that Slippin' Jimmy would have run his fake injury scam on a Cicero version of Irene had the opportunity arisen.