Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Leila6]

1 minute ago, Maximum Taco said:

That also depends on if the show will follow book rules on dragon bonding. If it does then Rhaegal has likely bonded with Jon, and may side with him over Daenerys. 

And in that case I'd take Jon's forces over Dany's. 

Dany's Dothraki, Unsullied, a few Iron Islanders and 1 Dragon

vs

 Jon's wildlings, Northmen, Valemen, Shape-shifting Assassin, All Knowing Eye of God, 1 Dragon and 1 Direwolf.

That’s true, although I was looking at it from a sheer numbers standpoint. The north doesn’t have many fighters left. Your comment does remind me that I’m kind of annoyed no one has mentioned Jon’s dragon-riding yet. Tyrion, at least, should realize that something is up with Jon’s lineage and that, as you point out, Rhaegal should technically be Jon’s to “command” at this point.

On a separate note, I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but John Bradley is wearing that protective covering over his costume that Sophie and Maisie are wearing in other BTS videos. That seems to confirm there’s no Nights Watch at the end of this (or at least that he’s released from it) because why otherwise would they hide his costume?

[anamika]

55 minutes ago, Leila6 said:

Tyrion, at least, should realize that something is up with Jon’s lineage and that, as you point out, Rhaegal should technically be Jon’s to “command” at this point.

This is funny, because in the BTS video for episode one, D&D talk about Jon being slow on the uptake and hence it is only at the end when Sam tells him the truth that Jon is able to put 2 and 2 together to get 4. But what about Dany? The mother of dragons! And Tyrion - the so called smartest man. And Varys! None of them are puzzled by this?

[Cosmosgravitation]

10 minutes ago, anamika said:

This is funny, because in the BTS video for episode one, D&D talk about Jon being slow on the uptake and hence it is only at the end when Sam tells him the truth that Jon is able to put 2 and 2 together to get 4. But what about Dany? The mother of dragons! And Tyrion - the so called smartest man. And Varys! None of them are puzzled by this?

D&D deciding Jon is slow on the uptake is one of the most annoying ways they've changed his character, since in the books he is clearly intelligent and quick witted.  They changed it for seemingly no reason too... I guess maybe they tried making him into an "everyman" type.

[anamika]

11 minutes ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

D&D deciding Jon is slow on the uptake is one of the most annoying ways they've changed his character, since in the books he is clearly intelligent and quick witted.  They changed it for seemingly no reason too... I guess maybe they tried making him into an "everyman" type.

If Jon is as politically savvy and smart as he is in the books, there would be nothing for Sansa to do on the show. Jon has negotiated successfully with kings, bankers, northern houses and freefolk in the books. Even Stannis praises him and that's something. There's also the fact that in the books good people can be honorable and smart, while the show's thesis is that good/honorable people are stupid. 

Sansa keeps walking around with Yohn Royce on the show. I wonder if they are hinting at some future relationship between Sansa and the Vale...

[bubble sparkly]

Well she either has to marry Royce or Robin lol, neither are exactly A+ marriage material. At least Robin is age appropriate and  the actor has had a puberty glow up. Unless the show is going to produce some other young Vale hottie in the last few episodes (Harry the Heir or similar) and have Sansa fall in love

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Leila6 said:

On a separate note, I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but John Bradley is wearing that protective covering over his costume that Sophie and Maisie are wearing in other BTS videos. That seems to confirm there’s no Nights Watch at the end of this (or at least that he’s released from it) because why otherwise would they hide his costume?

Heh, at this point I wasn’t even registering if he’s still wearing Night’s Watch garb, since everyone is wearing black these days there’s little visual difference.

1 hour ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

D&D deciding Jon is slow on the uptake is one of the most annoying ways they've changed his character, since in the books he is clearly intelligent and quick witted.  They changed it for seemingly no reason too... I guess maybe they tried making him into an "everyman" type.

The writers basically view Jon as Ned 2.0, which translates into being pure of heart but not overly smart (whether this is a good read of Ned either is a separate question) — which creates a thematic dissonance in that Ned’s mistakes were his downfall in Season 1, but at this point Jon has made several arguably worse misjudgements and just keeps winning anyway because of plot gifts or getting rescued by other characters.

[ElizaD]

Like Gendry, Missandei seemed to be on a new set for her interview, otherwise I'd really like the theory that Grey Worm takes her ashes and the Unsullied to Naath in honor of her memory. But if she survives Winterfell, there's still a chance she dies in 8x05 - I suppose that battle needs good guy casualties too.

For a long time it's been a theory that Sam writes a version of ASOIAF (and recently that he becomes the Warden of the South, which could explain a costume change). I'm a little afraid for Bran now: if he's the world's memory, what if Sam writes the book so that it won't be lost despite the death of the last Three-Eyed Raven? Before this episode I always felt that Bran was a pretty safe bet to have the last POV of the series.

[WindyNights]

21 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Like Gendry, Missandei seemed to be on a new set for her interview, otherwise I'd really like the theory that Grey Worm takes her ashes and the Unsullied to Naath in honor of her memory. But if she survives Winterfell, there's still a chance she dies in 8x05 - I suppose that battle needs good guy casualties too.

For a long time it's been a theory that Sam writes a version of ASOIAF (and recently that he becomes the Warden of the South, which could explain a costume change). I'm a little afraid for Bran now: if he's the world's memory, what if Sam writes the book so that it won't be lost despite the death of the last Three-Eyed Raven? Before this episode I always felt that Bran was a pretty safe bet to have the last POV of the series.

According to Friki, none of the Starks die.

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Leila6 said:

On a separate note, I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but John Bradley is wearing that protective covering over his costume that Sophie and Maisie are wearing in other BTS videos

John Bradley is definitely at the dragonpit Italica amphitheatre.

[Hana Chan]

7 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

That also depends on if the show will follow book rules on dragon bonding. If it does then Rhaegal has likely bonded with Jon, and may side with him over Daenerys. 

And in that case I'd take Jon's forces over Dany's. 

Dany's Dothraki, Unsullied, a few Iron Islanders and 1 Dragon

vs

Jon's wildlings, Northmen, Valemen, Shape-shifting Assassin, All Knowing Eye of God, 1 Dragon and 1 Direwolf. 

That also doesn't take into account whatever houses survived south of the Neck. Dany's biggest weakness in her plans to take Westeros is that she had very few real allies in Westeros and did nothing to court more. She had the Tyrells, but the house was already teetering on the verge of extinction and were swiftly pushed over the edge. She had Dorne, but the noble house had been killed off and she then lost the illegitimate (no pun intended) leader. All she has left of Westerosi allies are Yara's Ironborn and we don't yet know if Yara will be successful at taking the Iron Islands.

A lot of the major houses might be gone, but there are hundreds of smaller noble families with their own fighting forces. If the choice for the people of the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the southern reachs of Westeros is a native born natural heir to the Targaryen house who is the son of a beloved prince or someone at the far edge of the succession list who is the direct daughter of the Mad King and brought in foreign armies (especially the Dothraki who have a well-earned reputation for atrocities committed against those they ride against), it's not unreasonable to expect that many will chose to ally with Jon. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Hana Chan

[anamika]

Sansa trusts Tyrion. After a little chat with Jorah, so does Dany. Jon trusts him. Bran is being secretive and not saying anything as usual. Everyone basically thinks that Tyrion is a good guy.

If the Tyrion leaks are true, maybe Arya has no interaction with Tyrion because as a FM she could sniff out his secret betrayal plans.

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah, I still can't really make sense of the Tyrion leaks based on what we have seen for the first 2 episodes.  So far everyone is agreeing that he's a smart and clever guy who made a series of bad decisions.  Even freaking Jorah's (presumably) dying wish to Dany is that she keeps Tyrion around!  Political genius Sansa has given him her stamp of approval. So far there are no clues that Tyrion is acting against Team Good Guy.

Even the spec that he closes the gates of KL to try and stop the AOTD seems weird because we were beaten over the head with "peacenik, anti-violence" Tyrion last season.  If Tyrion practically got the vapours over Dany executing the idiotic and traitorous Tarlys, I'm not sure I buy him suddenly being ruthless and practical and deciding to sacrifice the KL residents to save the world.

[nikma]

47 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah, I still can't really make sense of the Tyrion leaks based on what we have seen for the first 2 episodes.

The only betrayal that is possible now is if he does something really bad, so he could stop WW.  Betrayal for family won't happen, because they've accepted Jaime, and Starks and Dany didn't show any sign that they would harm Cersei's child. 

But more and more I think it was leak trap that Friki got. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by nikma

[QuinnM]

11 minutes ago, nikma said:

The only betrayal that is possible now is if he does something really bad, so he could stop WW.  Betrayal for family won't happen, because they've accepted Jaime, and Starks and Dany didn't show any sign that they would harm Cersei's child. 

What if the question is family or the Starks?  If Dany is gone or has dismissed him and the choice before him is family or Starks.  After the battle in 3 - who is advising Dany?  If it is just Tyrion, well she said he was ruthless and it was one of the reason she choose him for hand.  Then Dany dies.  It’s Tyrion alone.  So I can still see a betrayal but in my mind I don’t see it with the current set of players.  So depends on who the WW get next week.

[Nightingale]

22 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Nah, the story doesn't seem to be unfolding in that direction at all and what you are proposing makes no sense. If Jon or someone kills Dany, her dragons and armies will kill them, not fight for them. 

And yet, there are things that make it pretty clear that Jon is in charge of Dany's armies and dragons at the end of the story:

• according to Kit Harington himself, his last day of filming was with Peter Dinklage, Liam Cunningham and Jacob Anderson. And according to Javi, they're walking through a burned King's Landing. Dany is not mentioned. Who is Grey Worm following or protecting?
• In the Dragonpit, presumably for Tyrion's trial, we have a group of people that could be best described as "Jon's family and friends" No mention of Daenerys. Grey Worm and the Unsullied are there. Who are they here for?
• Speaking of the trial, Tyrion is said to betray the Starks, not Daenerys. Shouldn't it be both? Shouldn't any betrayal of the Starks affect Dany too, if they're still on the same side?
• Back in april 2018, Irish Thrones published this tweet. Dragons arrive in King's Landing. When asked which actors were there, they mentioned Kit, Liam and Maisie. No Emilia. In fact, we have absolutely no proof that she is involved in whatever action sequence takes place in King's Landing.

Now I know what you're gonna say. She's filming the dragon stuff in the studios. She's giving birth. They don't film in order. Those are the excuses I used to tell myself. Not anymore.

Of course it doesn't mean that Jon is the one who kills her, I'm probably wrong about that. But everything points to him being gifted her armies and dragons after she dies of evilness.

I don't want any of this to be true, it's just the vibe I'm getting. I'm trying to prepare myself for it.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

7 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

• In the Dragonpit, presumably for Tyrion's trial, we have a group of people that could be best described as "Jon's family and friends" No mention of Daenerys.  

But no mention of Jon himself either,

[nikma]

19 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

What if the question is family or the Starks?

But they did not set up that at all in the first 2 episodes. Starks don't hate Jaime. 

[QuinnM]

18 minutes ago, nikma said:

But they did not set up that at all in the first 2 episodes. Starks don't hate Jaime.

The betrayal is not by the Starks.  This would be Tyrion loving his family more than his loyalty to the Starks.  So the fact that the Starks are not punishing a Lannister only shows them as weak to a ruthless person.

[nikma]

20 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

This would be Tyrion loving his family more than his loyalty to the Starks.

But the show did not create a situation where he would need to choose. 

[QuinnM]

16 minutes ago, nikma said:

But the show did not create a situation where he would need to choose. 

Yet ...

They did point out that Tyrion is just a little sad that Jon got the cookie.  They said Tyrion was ruthless.  They set up alllll the mistakes that Tyrion has made.  They put his job on the line.  So I think they are setting him up for what he would do if left to his own devices.

[cambridgeguy]

2 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

They did point out that Tyrion is just a little sad that Jon got the cookie.  They said Tyrion was ruthless.  They set up alllll the mistakes that Tyrion has made.  They put his job on the line.  So I think they are setting him up for what he would do if left to his own devices.

I suppose it's possible that if Sansa explicitly says the North will never bow to Dany even with Jon having bent the knee then Tyrion will decide to be proactive and do something to try and eliminate all of them.  In addition, if Jon does decide to make a play for the Iron Throne then he might do the same.  However, I cannot see Jon claiming his birthright unless Dany dies.

[Eyes High]

I went back and rewatched the Jaime/Tyrion conversation in 8x02, and I really think that there's something important that was hinted at:

Tyrion: You were a golden lion. I was a drunken whoremonger. It was all so simple.

Jaime: It wasn't so simple. I was sleeping with my sister and you had one friend in the world who was sleeping with his sister.

Tyrion: I was speaking in relative terms.

Jaime: Do you miss it?

Tyrion: Of course I miss it.

Jaime: Well, my golden lion days are done, but whoremongering is still an option for you.

Tyrion [shaking his head]: It's not. [sighs deeply] Things would be easier if it were.

[Jaime gives Tyrion a quizzical look, turns his head as if he's about to ask something]

Tyrion [raising his cup]: The perils of self-betterment.

[Jaime nods, drinks]

It looked like Jaime was about to ask what Tyrion meant and then Tyrion jokingly changed the subject. It also seemed as if the whole point of that conversation on the writers' part was to get to Tyrion's statement about whoremongering no longer being an option for him, and how "things" (what things?) would be easier. Why is that important?

I don't think it's about Shae, because Jaime who's well aware of the story with Shae seemed confused (and there's very little that's confusing about why killing Shae would have led Tyrion to sour on whores). Also, from a writing perspective, Tyrion's Shae issues are pretty much irrelevant at this stage of the game, and the writers are generally allergic to anyone on this show having meaningful conversations about past traumas and working out their shit.

Is this conversation about Tyrion's feelings for Dany? S8 has so far kept that side of things on the backburner--Tyrion had no negative reaction to Davos proposing a marriage between them and admitted that they made a beautiful couple--but maybe it will come back. 

I remember that back in S5, Tyrion turned down the prostitute and not only didn't but couldn't explain why, either:

Prostitute: Come on.

Tyrion: I'm--I'm sorry, I can't.

Prostitute: Of course you can. You're shy.

Tyrion: I'm not.

Prostitute: Have another drink.

Tyrion: Gladly, but this I can't do. Believe me, no one is more shocked than I am. I hope it passes. What will I do in my spare time?

I don't believe the writers have ever explained this, either. If it were just about Shae, you'd think Tyrion would acknowledge that. Instead, we're left to wonder why, an odd ambiguity given that the show's writers are usually keen to spell out every little thing. With 8x02, it seems like we're left to imagine that Tyrion's been celibate since Season 5, for some as yet-undisclosed reason, it predates his meeting Dany.

I do remember that the writers changed Tyrion's words to Sansa on their wedding night from the books. In the books, when Sansa asks Tyrion what if she never wants him, Tyrion says that that's why the gods made whores for imps like him. In the show, he says "And so my watch begins," which is of course a reference to the Night's Watch vow of celibacy. I also remember Shae trying to seduce Tyrion back in 4x01, Tyrion demurring with it not being a good time, and Shae saying "It's never a good time. You have your child bride now"...which kind of sounds like Tyrion couldn't bring himself to sleep with Shae once he married Sansa, either.

So is this whole thing about Tyrion's vow to Sansa?

...I don't know why any of this matters if Tyrion's going to be executed for treason in four episodes, or if Tyrion's in love with Dany as the S7 outlines and Peter Dinklage's interviews seemed to suggest, but I do know that that Tyrion/Jaime conversation is there for a reason. If Tyrion feels bound by his vow to Sansa, he's obviously prepared to take that information with him to his grave (not even sharing it with Jaime), and he's not going to talk about it with Sansa any time soon given the frosty reception she gave him in 8x01, so I'm not seeing how it will come into play in the back four episodes.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Eyes High

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah, I still can't really make sense of the Tyrion leaks based on what we have seen for the first 2 episodes.  So far everyone is agreeing that he's a smart and clever guy who made a series of bad decisions.  Even freaking Jorah's (presumably) dying wish to Dany is that she keeps Tyrion around!  Political genius Sansa has given him her stamp of approval. So far there are no clues that Tyrion is acting against Team Good Guy.

Even the spec that he closes the gates of KL to try and stop the AOTD seems weird because we were beaten over the head with "peacenik, anti-violence" Tyrion last season.  If Tyrion practically got the vapours over Dany executing the idiotic and traitorous Tarlys, I'm not sure I buy him suddenly being ruthless and practical and deciding to sacrifice the KL residents to save the world.

After 802, the only possible betrayal I can see is if he tries to kill Jon in order to protect Dany's claim to the Throne (with or without her knowledge).  He maybe be totally loyal to Dany and trying to get her exactly what she wants (The Iron Throne) and, even though he likes Jon and views him as a good guy, feels the need to remove a threat to Dany.

That's the only way i can make sense of Tyrion betraying the Starks (which i believe the spoiler is adamant that he betrays the Starks and not Dany or everyone).

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah, I still can't really make sense of the Tyrion leaks based on what we have seen for the first 2 episodes.  So far everyone is agreeing that he's a smart and clever guy who made a series of bad decisions.  Even freaking Jorah's (presumably) dying wish to Dany is that she keeps Tyrion around!  Political genius Sansa has given him her stamp of approval. So far there are no clues that Tyrion is acting against Team Good Guy.

I don't see it either. There is nothing there to even give an inkling of a betrayal. When would Tyrion even have the opportunity given everything that is going on. I suppose something could happen in episodes 4 and 5 when he is at King's Landing, but I don't see it as yet.

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

...I don't know why any of this matters if Tyrion's going to be executed for treason in four episodes, or if Tyrion's in love with Dany as the S7 outlines and Peter Dinklage's interviews seemed to suggest, but I do know that that Tyrion/Jaime conversation is there for a reason. If Tyrion feels bound by his vow to Sansa, he's obviously prepared to take that information with him to his grave (not even sharing it with Jaime), and he's not going to talk about it with Sansa any time soon given the frosty reception she gave him in 8x01, so I'm not seeing how it will come into play in the back four episodes.

Maybe Tyrion is in love with Dany, but more likely he knows she would not approve of him "whoring" around. I don't think that Sansa has much to do with this, on the show anyway.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa trusts Tyrion. After a little chat with Jorah, so does Dany. Jon trusts him. Bran is being secretive and not saying anything as usual. Everyone basically thinks that Tyrion is a good guy.

Opposite of what Quaithe tells Dany, isn't it ?

So what ticks future betrayal boxes?

I'm not at all convince all his decisions were bad timing or mistakes; and that started when he saved Jorah and got him banished a second time; leaving him to speak in Dany's ear.

[Morrigan2575]

20 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Opposite of what Quaithe tells Dany, isn't it ?

So what ticks future betrayal boxes?

I'm not at all convince all his decisions were bad timing or mistakes; and that started when he saved Jorah and got him banished a second time; leaving him to speak in Dany's ear.

I watch a video on YouTube yesterday that was pretty interesting, regarding Tyrion being stupid/making mistakes.  I don't know if his theory is right but, it made me curious

[SimoneS]

I think that Tyrion's desire to save his family is why he allowed Cersei to sucker him, but there is no defense for his poor military strategy. Yet I still don't see the motivation for him to betray the Starks. It would be more believable if Tyrion lost faith in Dany and betrayed her.

Edited April 23, 2019 by SimoneS

[Minneapple]

56 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

After 802, the only possible betrayal I can see is if he tries to kill Jon in order to protect Dany's claim to the Throne (with or without her knowledge).  He maybe be totally loyal to Dany and trying to get her exactly what she wants (The Iron Throne) and, even though he likes Jon and views him as a good guy, feels the need to remove a threat to Dany.

That's the only way i can make sense of Tyrion betraying the Starks (which i believe the spoiler is adamant that he betrays the Starks and not Dany or everyone).

This was my thinking. If it comes down to Jon/the Starks vs. Dany and Tyrion takes Dany's side and somehow that winds up in death and destruction, well, that could be a betrayal of the Starks.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Maybe Tyrion is in love with Dany, but more likely he knows she would not approve of him "whoring" around. I don't think that Sansa has much to do with this, on the show anyway.

Except that his first refusal of a prostitute predates his meeting with Dany; he didn't fall in love with Dany before meeting her. It's possible that Tyrion's first refusal is not related to his comment about whoremongering no longer being an option for him, but it seems highly unlikely, especially since in both instances he failed to explain why.

Both Sansa and Tyrion are supposed to hide in the crypts in 8x03 along with Varys, Gilly and the rest, so we'll see what happens.

ETA: And on an another note, there was this quote from a very entertaining NYT NCW/Gwendoline interview:

Quote

CHRISTIE No, that’s just you. [Laughs.] It’s a refreshing take on female sexuality, desire and love, where it is not about begging to be loved and therefore approved. There’s much more of an inner struggle. A deep conflict of not needing to be, not wanting to be and wanting to be. I’ve enjoyed that subversion of male-female relationships. Normally, it’s: “Please love me. Please adore me. Please be physically intimate with me.” Would Brienne even want them to do something like hold hands?

COSTER-WALDAU Very clearly not!

CHRISTIE Good luck with that!

Is this the new "I think Arya is asexual" in terms of actorly trolling, or is Brienne and Jaime's relationship going to stay intensely emotional and not physical?

...I do agree with Gwendoline Christie's comments about the appealing subversiveness of Brienne and Jaime's relationship in the show, though. Being knighted by Jaime was more fulfilling to Brienne than anything overtly romantic or sexual would have been.

Either way, I'm okay with it. Even if their relationship does get physical, they've had a hell of a slow burn.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Eyes High

[Jextella]

Things do seem to point to a Tyrion betrayal of the Starks.

He says throughout the entire series that he loves his family deeply.  Despite how he has been treated by many of them the Lannister name / lineage means something to him - including Cersei's unborn child.

It was interesting that we weren't shown any of his time together with Bran.   Could be Bran spilled beans that Tyrion will try to use to save the Lannister house.

On the flip side, Bran can see the past, present, and part of the future.  Seems he would sniff out Tyrion's motives and Lannister history quickly enough to not divulge too much.

And for Tryion, if he is as smart as everyone thinks, it seems odd he would support anyone, including Cersei, if it meant risking winning the war with the Nightwalkers.  Tyrion is humble enough to know that this is about life vs. death - not house vs. house. 

[magdalene]

I had this odd thought when I re-watched the Davos moment with the scarred little girl.  I have been waiting for Mellisande to arrive in Winterfell and maybe she is already here - in the form of the scarred little girl.  There was something about that scene, besides the obvious allusion to Shireen.

[Spartan Girl]

Again, I say: dammit, I don't want Tyrion to be a traitor!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lady Iris]

18 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Faye Marsay was papped in Seville with her hair ready for her wig, which means she could have been filming. So, a reappearance of the FM isn't impossible.

Ooh, if true, then maybe that's who Arya's running away from in the crypt. Bottom line is, I can't wait to see who's rattled her cage after everything she's been through. It's gotta be good.

[YaddaYadda]

28 minutes ago, magdalene said:

There was something about that scene, besides the obvious allusion to Shireen.

Maybe the crypt ends in flames. 

You can't have this many characters down in the crypts and Gilly telling the little girl that they will need defending to get her to go down there for nothing of importance to happen. 

And as far as Tyrion goes, allegedly, Bran will have told him everything about his journey, and Dany told him that she would need his mind. Bran sees things, but he doesn't know how to puzzle them out. His vision at the ToJ was him coming out with the belief that Jon was born a Targaryen bastard and it's Sam who gave him the clues he was missing for him to be able to go back and puzzle the rest out. 

If Bran is the keeper of the history of the world, then there must be a shit ton of fragments in his mind that he doesn't really know how to make sense of. I think this is where Tyrion and Sam will come because they are knowledgeable men and very clearly, a lot more than swords and dragons are needed to defeat the NK. They have to puzzle him out too. 

And maybe in the process, Tyrion stumbles upon something that will turn him traitor or whatever.

[domina89]

6 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

You can't have this many characters down in the crypts and Gilly telling the little girl that they will need defending to get her to go down there for nothing of importance to happen. 

I really hope they outfit every able-bodied person going in the crypts with a dragonglass weapon of some sort, otherwise they will be completely helpless once the wights start pouring in.

[Bannon]

I wouldn't say Jon is stupid, or that he is more stupid than many other major characters. It is Jon, after all, who must keep reminding other numbskulls that if the NK isn't defeated, all the conflicts among the living are rendered moot.

I would say Jon is pretty boring most of the time, largely because he doesn't have interesting flaws. Ned probably would have been as well, if hadn't had his melon lopped off near the end of s1.

I kind of hope Jon dies with the NK, because Westeros is more interesting without them, and since I don't have to live in Westeros, all I care about is it being interesting.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Again, I say: dammit, I don't want Tyrion to be a traitor!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I don't want is for Tyrion to be a moron, and I have a hard time seeing a way to write him as a traitor, without also writing him as kind of a halfwit. If I've been watching this show for almost a decade to have it confirmed that Tyrion is a blithering idiot, I'm going to be kind of annoyed.

[ElizaD]

Sex didn't doom Gendry! The ASOIAF reddit has a magazine scan where Joe Dempsie mentions filming in Seville for season 8. Now I really wonder why trailer Arya looks so frightened.

A ton of unspoiled viewers seem to believe that all the talk about Tyrion's intelligence was buildup to him learning something from his conversation with Bran that will allow him to redeem himself.

[Raachel2008]

1 minute ago, ElizaD said:

Sex didn't doom Gendry! The ASOIAF reddit has a magazine scan where Joe Dempsie mentions filming in Seville for season 8. Now I really wonder why trailer Arya looks so frightened.

Because she is facing the army of the dead? I've seen more than one comment about how weird it is that Arya looks scared in the promo, but why not?.All the wildlings at Highdorne, the crows, they were scared. Jaime was scared when he saw that wight at Dragon pit. Gendry, the Hound, Jorah, Jon, look at Dany's face when she rescues them. Why wouldn't Arya be scared? 

[blixie]

Quote

Sex didn't doom Gendry! 

Thank God I'm pretty sure they are both gonna make it!!! I WILL HEAR NO DIFFERENT, and Davos will sail them away like a Styx song, I need all three of these people to be alive and happy-ish at the end. 

[shireenbamfatheon]

16 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Because she is facing the army of the dead? I've seen more than one comment about how weird it is that Arya looks scared in the promo, but why not?.All the wildlings at Highdorne, the crows, they were scared. Jaime was scared when he saw that wight at Dragon pit. Gendry, the Hound, Jorah, Jon, look at Dany's face when she rescues them. Why wouldn't Arya be scared? 

Yup. Arya's scene about looking forward to seeing death's face really showed how little grasp she has on the magnitude of the storm they're about to face. Every other person is terrified and doubtful about their chances, including many of the older battle-hardened warriors, but Arya's cocky and confident because she can't envision how terrifying these mythological monsters are. That'll change next episode which is a good thing because it humanizes her and emphasizes how daunting the battle is. 

[screamin]

17 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Sex didn't doom Gendry! The ASOIAF reddit has a magazine scan where Joe Dempsie mentions filming in Seville for season 8. Now I really wonder why trailer Arya looks so frightened.

A ton of unspoiled viewers seem to believe that all the talk about Tyrion's intelligence was buildup to him learning something from his conversation with Bran that will allow him to redeem himself.

Or make the ultimate betrayal. Probably Tyrion initially approached Bran out of curiosity, and to see if this whole seer reputation is true, and whether it can be put to use for foreign intelligence.  He'd likely find Bran's view of the destined fight of NK and Azor Ahai fascinating - and possibly Bran's view of who is Azor Ahai and who is Nissa Nissa threatening to his queen. I can imagine he might also want to see just how powerful Bran's vision is and how something might be overlooked even by Bran - especially if he decides he wants Jon to be Nissa Nissa and Dany to be the Azor Ahai figure.

[onyxrose81]

12 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Yup. Arya's scene about looking forward to seeing death's face really showed how little grasp she has on the magnitude of the storm they're about to face. Every other person is terrified and doubtful about their chances, including many of the older battle-hardened warriors, but Arya's cocky and confident because she can't envision how terrifying these mythological monsters are. That'll change next episode which is a good thing because it humanizes her and emphasizes how daunting the battle is. 

Arya's seeming nonchalance confuses me so much.  Her brother, who she knows is not prone to exaggeration, is single-minded about this.  Bran, enough said.  The fact that the Hound is there at all should prove to her that shit is serious.  But she's just all bravado about looking forward to seeing death's face.  Girl...

[Lady Iris]

Definitely, her nonchalance at the situation is a bit concerning. We all get she's seen some stuff but nothing the FM taught her could possibly prepare her for Headless Ned rising up from the crypts were it'll be safe. Y'all heard that the crypts are safe yanno.

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Definitely, her nonchalance at the situation is a bit concerning. We all get she's seen some stuff but nothing the FM taught her could possibly prepare her for Headless Ned rising up from the crypts were it'll be safe. Y'all heard that the crypts are safe yanno.

I really do fear that these writers are going to have all the survivors of Hardhome be too dumb to grasp that the corpses in the crypt might be reanimated as well. Or Bran, for that matter, who saw old buried corpses climbing out of the ground/snow to stop him from meeting the previous 3 eyed Raven.

Ach, it's why I'll never be an unreserved fan of this genre; eventually the characters almost always have their brains removed by the writers.

[MarySNJ]

45 minutes ago, screamin said:

Or make the ultimate betrayal. Probably Tyrion initially approached Bran out of curiosity, and to see if this whole seer reputation is true, and whether it can be put to use for foreign intelligence.  He'd likely find Bran's view of the destined fight of NK and Azor Ahai fascinating - and possibly Bran's view of who is Azor Ahai and who is Nissa Nissa threatening to his queen. I can imagine he might also want to see just how powerful Bran's vision is and how something might be overlooked even by Bran - especially if he decides he wants Jon to be Nissa Nissa and Dany to be the Azor Ahai figure.

A couple thoughts:

I wondered what exactly Bran/TER and Tyrion discussed about Bran’s stranger-than-most journey. It’s the second time we’ve seen Tyrion having a conversation with someone where we didn’t get to hear the ending; first with Cersei last season. I’ll admit that I don’t like the idea that Tyrion betrays the Starks but that alleged leak makes me think that they are dropping clues that Tyrion is up to something. 

Ugh- I really don’t like the idea that the legend of Azor Ahai sacrificing Nissa Nissa is anything more than symbolic. It could have actually applied symbolically to Rhaegar (Azor Ahai) and Lyanna (Nissa Nissa) with the stabbing being intercourse and blood relating to childbirth of Jon/Aegon (Lightbringer). However, I don’t think the show has really made anything of that aspect of the legend and really hope it doesn’t go there. 

If Tyrion betrays the Starks I think it’s possible that Tyrion fears Jon/Aegon will be a rival for Daenerys’s throne. 

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

A couple thoughts:

I wondered what exactly Bran/TER and Tyrion discussed about Bran’s stranger-than-most journey. It’s the second time we’ve seen Tyrion having a conversation with someone where we didn’t get to hear the ending; first with Cersei last season. I’ll admit that I don’t like the idea that Tyrion betrays the Starks but that alleged leak makes me think that they are dropping clues that Tyrion is up to something. 

Littlefinger also tried to cozy up to Bran, as I recall. Maybe they're just going over the same beats as Littlefinger's S7 storyline: coldly shut down by Sansa, attempts to establish a rapport with Bran. All that's left is for Tyrion to be intimidated by Arya's strength and to try to convince Sansa that Arya is going to kill her. Maybe that's his betrayal, heh.

With that said, I'm not really seeing much evidence in the first two episodes of a betrayal or of some grand Lannister plan, since he seems to have made his peace with getting wiped out by the WWs at Winterfell, and he can't exactly plot and scheme if he's dead. Everyone seemed to accept that Tyrion made mistakes because he thought he was smarter than he actually was and moved on. D&D even said on the Inside the Episode bit that Tyrion made the mistake of clever people in assuming he was smarter than he actually was. If shit's supposed to be mysterious and shady, they don't usually openly explain it.

However, we really have little idea of what happens in 8x03 and no idea what happens in the last three episodes beyond a big battle in 8x05 and Tyrion's trial in 8x06. If Jaime dies and Jon's parentage becomes widely known, Tyrion could very well experience some sort of existential meltdown that leads him to make some really bad choices.

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If Tyrion betrays the Starks I think it’s possible that Tyrion fears Jon/Aegon will be a rival for Daenerys’s throne. 

But really, his real allegiance is supposed to lie with Dany. Siding with her over the Starks to protect Dany's interests wouldn't really be a betrayal, since his loyalties ultimately belong to Dany and not the Starks and the Starks are well aware of that fact.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Eyes High

[Happy Harpy]

One hint that could foreshadow Tyrion's betrayal: Dany roasting him in 8x02 was a variation of Sansa's roast to LF in 6x05 (fool/traitor vs idiot/enemy). This kind of parallel is usually a bad omen. Frikidoctor was adamant it was "the Starks" he betrayed, so if his info is right and there's a betrayal it will be the Starks and not Daenerys.

Wasn't there info about Maisie/Arya having scenes with a little girl and her mother during filming, around March? I wonder if the little girl could be the one with the scar.

It's pretty clear that Arya is in for a rude awakening in 8x03, the superposition of the scenes in the trailer couldn't have been more obvious.

Yet, I don't know what can frighten her. She was in the crypts it seems, so wight giants and ice dragon should be out of the question. A loved one? Her asking Thoros if he could bring back a body without a head would become foreshadowing if it's Ned's headless body she confronts there. I don't think it would be in character, though. I've always seen her motto as "as long as there's life, there's hope". She'd hesitate to kill someone (but her enemies) because she wouldn't take away any chance of survival from them, even if it implied a near miracle. A wight has no hope; moreover she learned to mercy kill at the House of Black and White. Her logical reaction, if she saw a loved one wightified, would be imo to kill that hopeless thing they became; death wouldn't be an ultimate punishment here but something she'd do for them.

Her weapon seems broken, so imo she encountered a tougher adversary than one, two, or even twenty wights.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[MarySNJ]

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Littlefinger also tried to cozy up to Bran, as I recall. Maybe they're just going over the same beats as Littlefinger's S7 storyline: coldly shut down by Sansa, attempts to establish a rapport with Bran. All that's left is for Tyrion to be intimidated by Arya's strength and to try to convince Sansa that Arya is going to kill her. Maybe that's his betrayal, heh.

But really, his real allegiance is supposed to lie with Dany. Siding with her over the Starks to protect Dany's interests wouldn't really be a betrayal, since his loyalties ultimately belong to Dany and not the Starks and the Starks are well aware of that fact.

This is a fair point. But it may that the Starks still view Tyrion’s actions as a betrayal even if he is doing it because he perceives rightly or wrongly that they are a threat to Dany. 

Well, inquiring minds wanna know... 

Edited April 23, 2019 by MarySNJ

[Lady Iris]

At least we don't have to wait almost two years to find out anymore.