S10.E06: Extremis

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

The Pope urges the Doctor to read the Veritas, which contains the deadly truth.

[John Potts]

Well, that was... weird. OK, not exactly original (Rene Descartes should probably get a writing credit for this one - see his thought experiment of the Invisible Demon from his Meditations from 1641) but it certainly kept me wondering where it was going. Slightly unfortunate that, like many Moffat plots, the answer to that was probably "Nowhere interesting". At least we got the (inevitable) confirmation that yes, it was Missy in the vault and I guess we're going to get a Doctor/Master team up to defeat this Season's world and/or Universe threatening menace in some future episode(s) - probably followed by an inevitable betrayal.

[Llywela]

Okay, so after five fun episodes in a row, this was a return to Moffaty form - interesting ideas bogged down by unnecessary convolution and the weight of its own twisted sense of history. I really wish they'd get over this idea that the Doctor and the Master are good friends. I grew up watching the show in the 80s when they loathed one another intensely. The Master has murdered literally billions of innocent people, deliberately, and enjoyed it, stands for everything the Doctor opposes. No, they are not friends, and nothing the show does can convince me that they ever could be - trying to make them so introduces a sour note that spoils the rest of the story.

[ApathyMonger]

I'm glad they didn't spend an entire season on the Vault mystery at least.

Good episode, but they might be building these new aliens up a bit too much. Hopefully the pay-off when they attack for real is worth it.

[HauntedBathroom]

Quote

Okay, so after five fun episodes in a row, this was a return to Moffaty form - interesting ideas bogged down by unnecessary convolution and the weight of its own twisted sense of history. I really wish they'd get over this idea that the Doctor and the Master are good friends. I grew up watching the show in the 80s when they loathed one another intensely. The Master has murdered literally billions of innocent people, deliberately, and enjoyed it, stands for everything the Doctor opposes. No, they are not friends, and nothing the show does can convince me that they ever could be - trying to make them so introduces a sour note that spoils the rest of the story.

 

You should watch the end of The Time Monster. Or any Delgado stories. Or even The End of Time, if you can tolerate that shit.

Another wonderful episode. I'm going to miss Capaldi terribly. And Pearl. And Matt. And Moffat.

Edited May 20, 2017 by HauntedBathroom

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

Okay, so after five fun episodes in a row, this was a return to Moffaty form - interesting ideas bogged down by unnecessary convolution and the weight of its own twisted sense of history. I really wish they'd get over this idea that the Doctor and the Master are good friends. I grew up watching the show in the 80s when they loathed one another intensely. The Master has murdered literally billions of innocent people, deliberately, and enjoyed it, stands for everything the Doctor opposes. No, they are not friends, and nothing the show does can convince me that they ever could be - trying to make them so introduces a sour note that spoils the rest of the story.

I'm more annoyed by the idea that being the Doctor's friend (or wife for example) excuses these things. It's like he wanders around the universe making moral judgements constantly and then decides you get an out if he likes you. Oh, you committed genocide? Me too! Let's get married!*

"Oh, you're an intergalactic dictator bent on destroying free will through the universe? But we played together as children! No punishment for you!"**

*Yes still bitter about the awful River thing and still annoyed when the show brings it up

**Plus Missy is still the fucking worst

[Lokiberry]

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

I'm more annoyed by the idea that being the Doctor's friend (or wife for example) excuses these things. It's like he wanders around the universe making moral judgements constantly and then decides you get an out if he likes you. Oh, you committed genocide? Me too! Let's get married!*

When did River commit genocide?

[AudienceofOne]

55 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

When did River commit genocide?

You're right, of course. I loathed that season so much I've never rewatched 'Husbands' but I thought that episode made it clear that River committed genocide or she wouldn't have been allowed in the 'genocide only' restaurant.

But even ignoring that, River was practically sociopathic in her lack of morality by the end and we're supposed to handwave it away because "the Doctor likes her". Which was my point, however badly put.

[rwlevin]

Why wasn't the TARDIS translating the pope?

[AudienceofOne]

6 minutes ago, rwlevin said:

Why wasn't the TARDIS translating the pope?

That annoyed me too until I fanwanked that this was a clue this wasn't 'real'. So the simulation wasn't quite right.

[Lokiberry]

What bothers me is, what's the point of locking Missy in the Vault for 1000 years? Is he going to let her out at the end so she can go back to her old ways? Did the Time Lord killing contraption work only it takes 1000 years to actually finish her off?

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

You're right, of course. I loathed that season so much I've never rewatched 'Husbands' but I thought that episode made it clear that River committed genocide or she wouldn't have been allowed in the 'genocide only' restaurant.

But even ignoring that, River was practically sociopathic in her lack of morality by the end and we're supposed to handwave it away because "the Doctor likes her". Which was my point, however badly put.

We have no idea what that was about , or if it was even true. I say that because there's been NOTHING ever shown that would suggest River would commit genocide. Steal anything not nailed down? Sure. Lie? Absolutely. Marry a few guys behind the Doctor's back? Why not. Plot to murder Old What's-His-Head, an actual genocidal maniac? Oh yeah, and it was stated in show that his atrocities were one of the reasons she was so eager to do him in. I'm just not willing to take the word of an evil maitre d over everything else that I've seen on screen about the character . It might have been a fiction she created to get access to the restaurant.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Lokiberry

[Lantern7]

A lot of the episode went over my head. So most of what we saw was a simulation? And that the stuff at the Vatican wasn't real? I will say that I like the idea of the Pope inadvertently busting up a date. The current guy probably wouldn't give two spits about lesbians going out.

Another cute idea: Nardole being authorized to kick the Doctor's ass. I mean, he's most mechanical, but it's still Nardole.

I wish the Doctor would get his sight back, because him being blind might get old. Sadly, we didn't get Missy fully unleashed. She's probably really cranky in the vault.

[TheOtherOne]

"Doctor, here's a tip. When I'm on a date, when that rare and special thing happens in my real life, do not, do not, under any circumstances, put the pope in my bedroom!"

[benteen]

Typical Moffat episode.  A lot of interesting ideas that descend into a train wreck.  First episode of Season 10 that I didn't like.

Some good performances in this episode to be sure from the main three.  Moffat still finds a way to make River annoying even after she's gone.  I liked the Doctor and Missy scenes but...

Quote

"Oh, you're an intergalactic dictator bent on destroying free will through the universe? But we played together as children! No punishment for you!"**

Yeah, this is a pretty persistent problem for the Doctor and not the first time he's prevented The Master from getting the death penalty before (as explained in The Sea Devils back in the Third Doctor era).  He convinced the authorities then not to give The Master the death penalty and instead life imprisonment, in a pretty nice cell that the Master of course escaped from.  The Master has killed and killed and killed and has no intention of stopping.  If the Doctor doesn't have the muster to kill him, then he needs to incapacitate him (or he) permanently. 

It weakens his moral standing when he makes judgements about people but let's people like Missy or the Zygon terrorist from last season off the hook.

Edited May 21, 2017 by benteen

[JayEeeBee]

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I wish the Doctor would get his sight back, because him being blind might get old. Sadly, we didn't get Missy fully unleashed. She's probably really cranky in the vault.

Dunno.  He did bring her takeaway and told her a story about children being eaten, by space lice and a house no less.  Sounds almost entertaining.

Edited May 21, 2017 by JayEeeBee

[Llywela]

7 hours ago, HauntedBathroom said:

 

You should watch the end of The Time Monster. Or any Delgado stories. Or even The End of Time, if you can tolerate that shit.

I've seen them all. Their 'best enemies' schtick there is nothing approaching what we are seeing now, and the Master has committed a lot more atrocities since then. New Who keeps trying to peddle the idea that the Doctor is just as bad in his way, but the Doctor has only ever taken the lives of creatures who were trying to harm others. The Master has slaughtered and murdered on a grand scale, over and over and over, knowingly and deliberately, in a bid for personal power and for his own entertainment. No, I'm not buying what they are selling.

This episode was the first dud of the season, for me.

[Bruinsfan]

I cracked up at the executioners looking up the Doctor as "cause of death" and suddenly realizing they were in way, way over their heads. But did they know nothing about the person they were intending to execute? Missy's rap sheet has to be longer than anyone's—in "Logopolis" the Master nearly caused the heat death of the universe!

[wayne67]

This episode was terrible. The Shadow Doctor Pope Blocking Bill's Lesbian Date was amusing but the rest of the episode was downhill from there.

Why would a sub routine of a holographic simulation have the ability to send an email to sonic sunglasses worn by the actual Doctor? Are we supposed to believe that the Doctor gets emails via his sonic sunglasses? Also doesn't his sonic sunglasses capture rough estimations of object locations and configurations so... that message would be... unhelpful? 

I really hope this isn't a repeat of the Silence who were talked up a lot and was mostly taken care of offscreen... or something. I'm still not clear on what the Silence was or how they were defeated or why they were doing anything they were doing. 

That Missy thing was so overwrought and tiresome. We all knew the Doctor would never pull the plug on Missy/Master, he's had multiple opportunities to in the past and he's never gone through. Sure he'll kill other aliens who kill one person or threaten to invade the Earth or a city... but the Master who has routinely tried to take over/destroy Earth will always be given a free pass. 

Those executioners were weird, did they not look up the doctor before asking him to be an executioner? He should be known as someone not prone to killing someone in cold blood. Also which crime were they killing Missy for ? 

[Triskan]

Well, I loved that Moffat went full-on with the Ancestor Simulation theory ! I saw it coming a bit ahead but still found it really well executed (the main remaining question being then : when did reality and the simulation started to diverge ? And it was - in a very logic sense - answered).

Sure, it may be a little bit convultous at times, but in the end, it's a fantastic idea, strongly penned by Moffat (imo), and full of great tidbits, performances, dialogue lines, visuals and musics ! 

And I guess we havent seen the last of Missy's flashbacks : we still do not know why the Doctor had to make that oath and I'm pretty sure the answer will come sooner or later, and I'm quite intrigued. 

[tankgirl73]

Quote

Why would a sub routine of a holographic simulation have the ability to send an email to sonic sunglasses worn by the actual Doctor? Are we supposed to believe that the Doctor gets emails via his sonic sunglasses? Also doesn't his sonic sunglasses capture rough estimations of object locations and configurations so... that message would be... unhelpful? 

I think that's what the reminders about River were about. It took me awhile to make the connection -- I couldn't understand what the framing Missy story had to do with the simulation story, why thinking about what was said at the execution would help sim-Doctor figure out to send himself an email via the glasses. He pulled out River's diary, quoted it, and emailed himself from inside a simulation. How could he do that? The simulation was "too good", as he said, and dealing with Time Lord tech can have unforeseen consequences, where even the simulated version can have real capabilities. Just like simulated River, in her after-death virtual state. She could still reach out to the real world and communicate with him... so he thought just maybe he could do the same thing, and communicate with himself.

Quote

the main remaining question being then : when did reality and the simulation started to diverge ?

It was very clearly answered, though it's more clear on re-watch. At the start of the episode, he gets the email in his glasses. There's a pixel-y dissolve to the credits. After the credits, it's a pixel-y dissolve again, to the scene where he's at the lecture podium and the pope comes in. This is what he is "watching" in the email he just received. The rest of the episode is what he is 'watching' from his glasses, basically we're just watching it with him -- until the end of course, when we go back to reality.

He said it was a psychic recording, which is - presumably - why we could see stuff that the Doctor himself didn't... like when sim-Bill and sim-Nardole were at sim-Cern...

Quote

And I guess we havent seen the last of Missy's flashbacks : we still do not know why the Doctor had to make that oath and I'm pretty sure the answer will come sooner or later, and I'm quite intrigued.

Yes we know why he made the oath. He swore to protect the body for a thousand years (whether or not that 'body' was actually 'dead'). He used the very words "I give my oath" or "I make this oath" or whatever. That's the oath.

My own question is: why would these bad guys, in making a simulation of earth/humanity as real and accurate as possible, include a book that tells the sim-humans that they're not real?

Edited May 21, 2017 by tankgirl73

[HouseofBeck]

Late ETA: Turned out our area ran the show over into when Class was supposed to start, and this time we'd recorded Class because of that horrid teaser for next week's Doctor Who; anyway, we only got to see the bit that probably-no-longer-needs-to-be-in-spoiler-tags just now when we were angry-watching our recording again. 

I just found that unless I, my husband, and friends watching at various houses all simultaneously blacked out, there's a high probability that a 3-4 minute section of the show did NOT air on our BBC America. I'm putting it in spoiler tags because if this was a deliberate decision, then I would hope it would be somehow tacked on to next week's episode. 

Spoiler

A friend who had acquired the show direct from the BBC transmission said there was a part where the Doctor admitted that he'd futzed with the wiring around Missy's execution, and that we see quite clearly that yes, she's alive as she goes into the vault. And then later, apparently at the part where the Doctor realizes he's a Simu-Doctor and all the rest, we hear a Missy voiceover of how she'll always be his friend. I may have a little of this wrong as I was busy being "WTF" when my friend was telling me all this. 

I did actually enjoy this ep, even knowing it was Moffat. I liked the settings, and the slow pulse of tribal-esque music at the beginning, and the winding labyrinth of the tale. Maybe my bar got set low because I've been enjoying Bill and the Doctor together so much? 

Also I did flash back, just a little, to the Android Invasion. :)

Edited May 21, 2017 by HouseofBeck

[benteen]

The Doctor's "vision" through his sonic glasses reminds me of Daredevil, who has a crude radar vision in the comics.  Though it doesn't give him stuff to analyze and read like the Doctor's glasses.

[John Potts]

As a Catholic I actually quite liked the portrayal of the Pope here (though I doubt he'd be quite as "fish out of water" as he was shown - pretty sure he's fluent in English as well as Spanish and Italian, even if he was confused at how he got to be in a British lady's bedroom). But it was a reasonably favourable depiction for a relatively atheistic show.

HouseofBeck - yeah, that spoiled bit sounds like what we saw in the UK (can't say what BBC America showed).

[HouseofBeck]

1 minute ago, John Potts said:

HouseofBeck - yeah, that spoiled bit sounds like what we saw in the UK (can't say what BBC America showed).

Commercials! :P 

[Primetimer]

Visiting a virtual reality opens up a whole matrix of possibilities.

View the full article

[ChiRugby]

We saw that spoiled bit, but we're in Chicago.  So at least one feed of BBC America had it.

[Bruinsfan]

My broadcast in AR aired the reveal of Missy's execution fakeout, so I don't think it was a cut made at BBCA level. Maybe the particular cable company inserted an extra commercial?

I'd like to know how the aliens can make an accurate simulation of the minds of everyone on the planet, including the Doctor—that would probably be a big job even for Time Lord technology, and if you're in that ballpark of advancement conquering 21st century Earth makes no sense whatsoever as one's overarching goal.

[SVNBob]

It's been part of Moffat's wheelhouse to make some of the most innocuous and everyday things into something scary; statues, shadows, water, the sand in your eyes.

But with this being his last season, he took it to the extremis and made existence itself into something scary.

Well done, Steven.  Fuck you, but well done.

[clack]

Moffat is an inventive writer. He's capable of creating motives for aliens arriving on Earth without resorting to the old "they've come to conquer" chestnut.

When Wells originally came up with that story line, the universe was perceived as a much smaller place. But there are millions of Earth-like planets out there, many of them presumably without intelligent life. Why go through all the trouble and expense of fighting to take over someone's home when the universe is full of beautiful, empty homes?

Edited May 21, 2017 by clack

[benteen]

8 hours ago, John Potts said:

As a Catholic I actually quite liked the portrayal of the Pope here (though I doubt he'd be quite as "fish out of water" as he was shown - pretty sure he's fluent in English as well as Spanish and Italian, even if he was confused at how he got to be in a British lady's bedroom). But it was a reasonably favourable depiction for a relatively atheistic show.

HouseofBeck - yeah, that spoiled bit sounds like what we saw in the UK (can't say what BBC America showed).

Yeah, I thought this was lazy writing on Moffat's part.  The last few Popes have been fluent in English and other languages.  I didn't buy this one not being able to interact and understand it.

Edited May 21, 2017 by benteen

[ganesh]

15 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, this is a pretty persistent problem for the Doctor and not the first time he's prevented The Master from getting the death penalty before (as explained in The Sea Devils back in the Third Doctor era). 

I don't have as much memory of the classic era, but I thought the attitude of the Doctor/Master was that in condemning the Master, the Doctor is similarly condemning himself. We think of the Doctor as the 'good guy' but he's chaotic good at best, and I wonder from the pov of many others in the universe, how they would classify the Doctor. 

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Yeah, I thought this was lazy writing on Moffat's part.  The last few Popes have been fluent in English and other language. 

But it wasn't. The Pope not speaking english was the tip-off that they were all in the simulation. Even if the pope actually didn't speak english, the TARDIS would have translated. 

Even though it was a simulation, I liked Bill and Nardole figuring things out on their own without the Doctor's help. 

I don't like how everything has to be A Thing, so I would have been fine if this was all a simulation by the alien, but they all figured it out and the alien realized that invading earth wasn't worth it, and just left. 

At some point, you have to wonder if all these aliens are invading Earth and failing because of the Doctor, that word would get around, or, how about all the other planets not protected by the Doctor?

[Beatriceblake]

13 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I cracked up at the executioners looking up the Doctor as "cause of death" and suddenly realizing they were in way, way over their heads. But did they know nothing about the person they were intending to execute? Missy's rap sheet has to be longer than anyone's—in "Logopolis" the Master nearly caused the heat death of the universe!

It didn't really make sense for them to be so scared of the Doctor that they were willing to let Missy/the Master escape. I'm curious to see if we'll get to know what Missy did in this particular instance.

[Terrafamilia]

The sim-builders looked like the zompires from The Strain, just grayer. Yeah, if they have the wherewithal to create such a simulation why would they have to and what would be the point of conquering Earth?

[Gummo]

Typical for the Moffatt/Capaldi era - dark, slow, dreary, humorless, and with a Hallmark-card level of emotional 'insight' presented as deep revelations about the human psyche.

Look, I know Capaldi is a fine actor, but his doctor has been the worst of the new era, and it's all in the writing -- first he was rude & pointlessly mean, then he was unrelentingly grim, then Moffatt tried to turn an annoying and poorly written companion into the star of the show, and now ... this, whatever this is.

The best Doctor Who episodes feel effortless. All I could think while watching this one was, they're trying so damn hard and every bit of struggle shows on the screen. Poor Bill, she's come in on the tail end of a once-great character.

This doctor makes me root for his defeat -- he's just a big ol' bummer.  There's no joy in him. I miss River -- she never took herself or the doctor too seriously, and never let him take himself too seriously.

Ugh, I can't wait for the new team to take over. This show cries out for new blood.

[...I'm going to get pilloried for this, aren't I? Fair enough.]

[Dave in Chicago]

It's really a self-negating twist - especially when you consider that nothing much happens in the episode. There's a lot of walking through corridors, but we only really learn two things: who's in the vault, and some aliens are coming. Everything else vanishes with the simulation. So what was the point?

If you're going to do an "alt. world/all a dream reveal" - which, no spoilers, the series has done before - shouldn't the stakes be more extreme? It should be a chance to upend the rules, fake us out, do things that wouldn't quite work in proper continuity - not visit a library. Maybe I'm wrong and more of this will pay off in the next parts, but I doubt it.

[MarkHB]

Did anyone else notice that, when Bill and Nardole first saw the projector opening and we saw them from behind, back-lit, that Bill looked uncannily like an old-school Time Lord silhouette? Coupled with the Doctor's proper statement that they went for big collars rather than fancy hats, I have to think that was deliberate.

[Dave in Chicago]

Also: the hints about a rough/irregular regeneration are interesting, except 1) I doubt they'll follow through on this and 2) if they actually do some non-traditional casting for the next Doctor, doesn't this kind of troublingly set them up as some kind of defect?

[AudienceofOne]

30 minutes ago, Gummo said:

Ugh, I can't wait for the new team to take over. This show cries out for new blood.

[...I'm going to get pilloried for this, aren't I? Fair enough.]

Not necessarily. I don't necessarily agree about Capaldi (and I hated what they ended up doing to River) but the writing for this Doctor has been poor. Mind you, the writing for Matt Smith's Doctor was poor on average as well. He only really had one great season and the rest was a long descent into incomprehensible crap. So I think we're all going to agree that Moffat cannot go soon enough.

Unfortunately, I believe the next showrunner will be Chris Chibnall. And, I hate to say it, but he's worse than Moffatt. A sub par writer with none of Moffatt's flair and definitely none of RTD's heart. He's extremely mediocre and at times has bordered on truly terrible. Take Broadchurch, which is highly critically acclaimed with amazing acting and direction. That is terribly written - a fact that is covered up by the acting and the production - and contained one of the worst-executed "twists" in living memory. I actually threw something at the screen it was that poorly done. Don't even get me started on the shit he wrote for Torchwood. Basically, I look forward to five more seasons of Dinosaurs On a Spaceship with a love quadrangle and a 'twist' halfway through that the friendly janitor at the University that is in 2 seconds of one episode was the Big Bad all along.

[festivus]

I am on record as being generally okay with Moffatt but I do think it's time for him to go. 

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

Unfortunately, I believe the next showrunner will be Chris Chibnall. And, I hate to say it, but he's worse than Moffatt. A sub par writer with none of Moffatt's flair and definitely none of RTD's heart. He's extremely mediocre and at times has bordered on truly terrible.

I agree with this. I'm not looking forward to his run as showrunner. 

As to the episode, I really liked it and am intrigued to see what happens. River mentions are always good for me 'cause I love her.  On the shallow end, I love the way Bill dresses, I have loved all her outfits. I'd probably dress like that if I were still young and cute like her. 

[Mabinogia]

I'm in the minority here I guess, because I loved this ep. I thought the beginning with Bill's date was cute, and laughed at the Pope coming out of her bedroom. That poor, sounded like new or in the closet lesbian she had with her will probably never come out now! haha. I loved Bill and Nardole working together without the Doctor. I like that the Doctor is still blind and didn't get magically cured.

I actually don't hate Missy and though I know the Master's backstory is one of death and destruction, I understand why the Doctor wouldn't really want to kill her. It can't be easy being the last of your kind and I think he just can't bring himself to kill one of the last remaining Time Lords. They are friends in that Missy is the only other one around that is like him, that has the same history. I'm intrigued by their complex relationship.

I found the alt-reality this is a VR game concept really interesting and love that alt-Doc sent the data to the Doctor, building up to the episode(s) to come. Sure, this was mostly a filler episode, but I would prefer to have an episode that gives us some background on the Big Bad to come than just have them show up and have the Doctor exposition us about who they are, and what they are up to.

The only think that annoyed me was River being shoved into the storyline but that is a personal, I fucking HATE RIVER SONG issue, not necessarily a flaw in the story. I just HATE her!!!!! (I have issues, I know, lol)

[angora]

22 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

[re:  the Pope not speaking English] That annoyed me too until I fanwanked that this was a clue this wasn't 'real'. So the simulation wasn't quite right.

The more I think about it, I don't think that can have been intentional, only because I don't think Moffat could have put in that sort of clue without having a big reveal on the clue.  It WOULD'VE been a clever thing to do, but if he'd planned it that way, I'm sure we would've gotten an "If the TARDIS translates all languages, then why is the Pope speaking Italian?"-style "gotcha" line, a la "If the clock is broken, why can I hear ticking?" or "If there are five of us, why are there six shadows?"  Moffat can't resist lines like that, making me suspect this was just him being sloppy.

3 hours ago, Dave in Chicago said:

Also: the hints about a rough/irregular regeneration are interesting, except 1) I doubt they'll follow through on this and 2) if they actually do some non-traditional casting for the next Doctor, doesn't this kind of troublingly set them up as some kind of defect?

As of right now, that's not on the table since that was something the simulation Doctor did, not the real one.  It shouldn't affect the regeneration unless he does it for real later on.  (Side note, what kind of a stupid trade-off is potentially having all your future regenerations blind/losing all future regenerations/dropping dead in the next 20 minutes in exchange for a few minutes of mostly blurry vision?  Especially when we already knew the one guy had put the Veritas on his laptop and even people without a sonic screwdriver can get a computer to do text-to-voice for them.  I don't mind the Doctor being reckless and taking big gambles, but at least make them worth it.)

[Terrafamilia]

The pope was speaking Spanish but the TARDIS translated it as Italian (that's my fanwank anyway, recalling "The Fires of Pompeii" where it translated Donna's Latin into Celtic to the Romans).

[ganesh]

No, the Pope not speaking english was the tip-off of being in the simulation. The alien wouldn't have known that the TARDIS translates.

[LiveenLetLive]

since I refuse to try and make sense of any Dr Who storyline, I just go with the flow pretty much, I enjoyed this episode which reminded me in some ways of "Inception" crossed with Harry Potter (the Dementors!) Loving Bill, Loving Nardol, tolerating Capaldi (who I never much liked as the Doctor.) I am a River Fan so I liked that tidbit. As for the Master, frack it, just admit that the Master and the Doctor have always been secretly in love and be done with it, LOL.

[KirkB]

I'm not exactly trying to make sense of it either, and I still need to watch it again, but one scene stuck out in particular. When Nardol put his hand out of the light he fritzed and disappeared, but when Bill did the same thing nothing happened. I get why the whole derezzing thing occurred. But why didn't it happen to her too, when they were both part of the simulation?

Edited May 22, 2017 by KirkB

[Llywela]

35 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I'm not exactly trying to make sense of it either, and I still need to watch it again, but one scene stuck out in particular. When Nardol put his hand out of the light he fritzed and disappeared, but when Bill did the same thing nothing happened. I get why the whole derezzing thing occurred. But why didn't it happen to her too, when they were both part of the simulation?

Bill didn't put her hand far enough out of the light to fritz out - she got scared and backed away quick.

[darkestboy]

A weird one for me. I liked it more than the last few episodes but they could've tied in the Missy flashbacks a little better to the main storyline.

We all knew Missy was in the Vault and now we know it's because the Doctor wants to save/stop his old friend but its clear by the end of this three parter, Missy will be out and up to no good though.

The Pope, CERN and White House were amusing distractions and the Monks do seem to have a bite to them, villain wise.

Some good scenes with Bill and Nardole in this one I thought, 8/10

[Bruinsfan]

12 hours ago, ganesh said:

No, the Pope not speaking english was the tip-off of being in the simulation. The alien wouldn't have known that the TARDIS translates.

I think if the aliens have observed the Doctor at all to make a simulation of him, that part would be obvious. They'd have an easier time figuring out the TARDIS' translating capabilities from how it affects companions than its interior structure or the limits of its ability to traverse space and time (if, in fact there are any), as use of the latter would make it disappear from surveillance.

[Mabinogia]

I can't remember if there was any story reason to have the Pope speaking Italian. Was it for the little confusion when he came out of Bill's room? Was there some silly misunderstanding joke I missed? What I'm trying to figure out is why the writers made the decision to have the Pope not be translated like everyone else always is unless a) he chose not to just to be difficult or b) the aliens didn't understand the whole translation concept and just didn't do it. Normally when this show blunders something like that it's to make a joke they thought was so hilarious it was worth sacrificing continuity, or a plot point that they were too lazy to work around. But in this case I just don't get the point. Unless it was actually supposed to be a hit I totally missed because I was more focused on the idea that there is no way the Pope wouldn't know English along with several other languages, than the whole TARDIS translation thing.

[ganesh]

I think it's splitting the hair awfully thin. It was a tv-cheat to tip us off that things were not as they seem. I'm certainly no Moffat defender, but not everything is lazy writing or a plot hole. Simulation-Doctor emailing his real self through the glasses is silly too, but it's a fair enough cheat to move the story along. Sure, the aliens should have known that any pope in recent memory has spoken english. Maybe they actually do, and someone forgot to code that subroutine. 

The reasoning that the aliens missed some details is a straightforward, simple explanation. If they were able to construct a perfect simulation, then we'd all be doomed. The fact that they aren't perfect means that the Doctor has a chance to defeat them.