S01.E08: You Mean All This Time We Could Have Been Friends?

[Penman61]

LOL I know something about Dunaway's reputation on set and backstage.  I was talking about her on-screen performances and body of work as something for Murphy to disparage.  Odd target.  (Also, "But Dunaway was unprofessional!" is an inert comeback in a discussion about Joan Fucking Crawford, no?)

Sorry for getting us off-topic from this episode, which I found to be like the fecal product of a dog who's swallowed diamonds: The gems are in there, but oy, what you have to go through to get them...

Edited April 25, 2017 by Penman61

[Mindthinkr]

5 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

I just want to say something about removing one's back teeth to gain sunken cheeks (buckling, I think she called it).  I've heard that not only actresses would do this but models as well.  I just want to say that even if my heart's desire was to be an actress or model, buckling would be a deal breaker for me.  Ugh, it makes me ill just to talk about it.

Worse IMHO are The actresses willing to lose ribs to make their waist seem slimmer. The PTB are always changing people's looks to fit THEIR idea of perfection. Back then it was removing things, nowadays it's adding fillers, Botox and smoothing the skins surfaces. It just seems no one is good enough as they are anymore. Sad. 

[blaase]

That was a disappointing end to a series that started out strong, seems to be a recurring problem with Murphy shows, even when the story is already written for him.

I hated  how Murphy portrayed Joan in the end, she wasn't as weak and lonely as Ryan Murphy made her out to be. Joan Crawford was a complex woman but seems like Murphy just went and wrote her in this series to get his pet Lange as many scenes as possible to get sympathy and all the awards.

[newyawk]

18 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Also Sally Draper was a likable character compared to Don and Betty -- she was down to earth and no matter how angry she was at them she loved her parents. A character like Sally is always going to be likable -- a teen who loves her parents even when they don't deserve all that love. 

Eesh. Sally was one of the reasons I couldn't get past the first episode of season 6. Couldn't stand her, thought she was a brat.

[caracas1914]

There is a difference between a character and the actor portraying them. IMO  Madmen season 6 revealed the weaknesses of Kiernan Shipka as an actress since I was always indifferent to the character of Sally Draper. Kiernan never made her interesting to me.  

This  series showed  BD washing her hands of Bette Davis but the reality is that Davis was supporting the whole clan until BD published her  tell all memoir.

Joan had friends/family until the end, so the series making her much more pathetically alone at the end was so infuriating, but that is such a typical Ryan Murphy trick for "dramatic effect".

[ThatsDarling]

3 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

There is a difference between a character and the actor portraying them. IMO  Madmen season 6 revealed the weaknesses of Kiernan Shipka as an actress since I was always indifferent to the character of Sally Draper. Kiernan never made her interesting to me.  

This  series showed  BD washing her hands of Bette Davis but the reality is that Davis was supporting the whole clan until BD published her  tell all memoir.

Joan had friends/family until the end, so the series making her much more pathetically alone at the end was so infuriating, but that is such a typical Ryan Murphy trick for "dramatic effect".

I'm not familiar with Kiernan Shipka's other work, but I found her performance on this series to be flatly petulant. She also seemed much younger than she should have been...the real B.D. looked like an adult and led an adult life by the time she was 16. In this episode, it was awfully difficult to believe Shipka as the mother of two children. 

[Chris Knight]

I normally don't like dream sequences but this one was good. They all looked so beautiful and everyone was laughing and there were cocktails and then...it was all gone and it was just Joan and Mamacita.

Hard to believe Joan took in a doggie in her later years. I think it's great in many ways but it surprises me because of all the OCD and repulsion to dirt she allegedly had.

The buckle sounds positively barbaric.

I read that Christopher was actually the 2nd boy Joan adopted. The 1st boy was taken back by his biological mother. I wonder what ever happened to that 1st boy. 

I realize it may have been a sign of the times but I hate when people refer to adopted children as adopted, as Joan did. I know I just did it in the paragraph above lol but there shouldbe no distinction between adopted or biological children. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

8 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Source material doesn't matter for the acting categories.  BLL and Feud are both limited series, so Lange and Kidman are eligible for nomination in the same category.  Last year you had Sarah Paulson in the "based on real events and people's books about them" American Crime Story: The People v. OJ Simpson competing (and winning) against Kirsten Dunst in the wholly fictional Fargo (among others).

I am aware of all that. However, Lange had a lot of existing, real life material to draw her performance from. Kidman only had her own and the director's interpretation of the book the series was adapted from. If I were a member of the voting pool I would find it hard not to evaluate their performances differently partially on that basis. It'd be interesting to know what if any guidelines the voters are given to help them make their choices. There have been plenty of times when the technically best acting performance didn't win.

Quote

Davis is rightly iconic, but Dunaway did Chinatown, Bonnie & Clyde, Network, The Thomas Crown Affair, Barfly, Three Days of the Condor, The Eyes of Laura Mars, Little Big Man, The Towering Inferno.  No slouch.  

Makes me wonder how/why Dunaway got all those amazing roles if she was known to be so unprofessional. Maybe Bette had a personal grudge against her the same way she did against Joan. Seems like they both were/are very headstrong women and maybe whatever space they were in wasn't big enough for the both of them.

Seems like opinions toward Ryan Murphy color many people's feelings about this series. I watched Nip/Tuck and OJ Simpson miniseries but other than I've not experienced Murphy's work. Not sure whether I should feel disadvantaged.

[RedheadZombie]

16 minutes ago, ChicagoChris said:

 

I read that Christopher was actually the 2nd boy Joan adopted. The 1st boy was taken back by his biological mother. I wonder what ever happened to that 1st boy. 

I realize it may have been a sign of the times but I hate when people refer to adopted children as adopted, as Joan did. I know I just did it in the paragraph above lol but there shouldbe no distinction between adopted or biological children. 

The first one was named Christopher, too. So Christopher 2.0 was never allowed to be his own person. He was a replacement. 

I also hate when people talk of how "grateful" the adopted child should be. 

[benteen]

I'm reading about Freddie Francis on Wiki.  He directed several Hammer films, so the description of Trog being basically like a Hammer film was an accurate one.  His greatest success though was as a cinematographer, winning Oscars three decades apart for Sons or Lovers in 1960 and Glory in 1989.  He did several David Lynch films, including The Elephant Man and Dune.  Also did Scorsese's version of Cape Fear.

[ThatsDarling]

3 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I am aware of all that. However, Lange had a lot of existing, real life material to draw her performance from. Kidman only had her own and the director's interpretation of the book the series was adapted from. If I were a member of the voting pool I would find it hard not to evaluate their performances differently partially on that basis. It'd be interesting to know what if any guidelines the voters are given to help them make their choices. There have been plenty of times when the technically best acting performance didn't win.

Makes me wonder how/why Dunaway got all those amazing roles if she was known to be so unprofessional. Maybe Bette had a personal grudge against her the same way she did against Joan. Seems like they both were/are very headstrong women and maybe whatever space they were in wasn't big enough for the both of them.

This reminds me of an argument Bette Davis made about the Oscars. She thought it was unfair when Broadway actors recreated their stage roles on film and won Academy Awards. She said it's not the same test as creating a character from scratch, and there should be separate categories for original and adapted performances.

As for Dunaway, she was a hot property after Bonnie and Clyde, was beautiful, and could really act. You can get away with a lot if you have all that working for you.

[tennisgurl]

I admit it, for all the flaws of the series, this season got me pretty emotional. Seeing the last days of Joan, and hearing about the deaths of all the other real life versions of the characters, it really felt like the death of Old Hollywood. As much as I feel they emphasized the patheticness of Joan too much, I did feel really sad for her here. Her whole life was built around imagine, and when she couldn't live up to that perfect imagine anymore, everyone just forgot about her. She still had all the talent and the glamour, but no one cared enough to see that. Granted, some of her problems were brought on by her own pettiness and ego, but she still deserved better.

Bette looked pretty awesome in her 70s clothes, actually. My biggest complaint about the show was that I felt that, in the end, Bette ended up playing second fiddle to Joan, in a show that was clearly supposed to be about both of them. The reasons for that, I think, are that Joan has more of the classic Hollywood Babylon story, while Bette hid her tragedy behind snark, and kept working and being a presence in the public eye, and, of course, Ryan Murphys never ending love affair with Jessica Lange. The more time he can focus on her, the happier he is. The things we got with Bette were certainly really well done, and I ended up really liking SS in the role, but I think she deserved more. I also question them portraying the roast as something that upset her. From the clips I saw here, she seemed to find it pretty funny. She always has a sense of humor about herself, which is why I think she handled her later years better than Joan.

The dream sequence was really lovely. It almost felt like a bitter sweet scene in a ghost story, with the ghosts of Old Hollywood saying goodbye. The lighting was beautiful, and it was so nice to see Joan like that before she died. It even gave Jack and Hedda a more sympathetic moment, after being assholes for most of the show.

I will really miss my weekly Old Hollywood fix. My kingdom for another series about Hollywood history.

[Mindthinkr]

44 minutes ago, ChicagoChris said:

I normally don't like dream sequences but this one was good. They all looked so beautiful and everyone was laughing and there were cocktails and then...it was all gone and it was just Joan and Mamacita.

This might have been one of my favorite moments in the series. 

40 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Makes me wonder how/why Dunaway got all those amazing roles if she was known to be so unprofessional. Maybe Bette had a personal grudge against her the same way she did against Joan. Seems like they both were/are very headstrong women and maybe whatever space they were in wasn't big enough for the both of them

Good comment. Probably true. 

[tennisgurl]

In my opinion, both Bette and Joan aged more gracefully than Faye Dunaway.

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I was hoping to catch a glimpse of it in the montage. 

And you're totally right about Lee and Davis in that film. Too bad. As a child, I LOVED the first one. But even as an 8 year old I could see how crappy the sequel was.

Not to mention it's super creepy that it's basically a story about how Christopher Lee brainwashes a little boy and forces him to obey his every command. I suspect that Bette is mostly there to add a "villainous grandma" vibe in the hopes of deflecting the less wholesome implications.

I don't know if Feud could've captured the film's many such weird issues in just a few moments, but even a tiny portion of the weirdness would've quite effectively demonstrated the Trog-like levels to which Bette sometimes sank -- like, say, this:

 

Quote

I named all of my stuffed animals "Tony" and "Tia" as a kid and, as an adult, I even have the star symbol tattooed on my back. ESCAPE TO WITCH MOUNTAIN was my jam back in the day! I used to cup my eyes, a la Tia, at every red light, hoping it would change. It is for that reason that I have never watched an episode of RHOBH. I know what became of Kim and I just don't want to see it.

Hee! I, too, was a big fan of the original film when I was a youngster. I even had a little bit of a crush on Tia -- which may be why I have managed to learn that Kim Richards was on Real Housewives and then promptly forget it again two or three times. My brain must not want to accept that that's where she ended up.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Dev F

[Daisy head]

12 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

It left me moved, not depressed.

Although, I was hoping for a brief scene of Joan substituting for a sick Christina on Secret Storm.

I was hoping for this as well.   I was sure it would be included.

[SWLinPHX]

On 4/23/2017 at 10:26 PM, smiley13 said:

What an emotional episode.    This series has made me very sympathetic to Joan.  The dream sequence was well done.

That's somewhat of the point of it.  Murphy wanted to "right a wrong" so to speak by balancing out the legacy of "Mommie Dearest" (book and film) and showing a more objective point of view.  I was very impressed, more so than I thought.  The series wasn't just camp, but something deeper.

On 4/23/2017 at 11:09 PM, bmoore4026 said:

Well, who else had a lump in their throat almost the entire episode?

Me!   God damn.  :(

On 4/24/2017 at 5:37 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Well, this episode finally did what I thought couldn't be done: they made me pity Joan Crawford, despite everything.

You know you are at your lowest when you dream about having a party with all the people you hated. Nostalgia indeed.

I can't believe Mamacita came back. But I guess it was nice she did. That puppy was so adorable.

So wait, Joan knew that Christina was writing MD before she died? That would explain why she cut her out of the will.

I don't know what is more ironic: Bette despising Faye Dunaway more than Joan, or that Joan wanted Faye to play her in a movie. If it's true, Joan must be spinning in her grave. I wonder what Bette thought of MD.

I liked how the end scene of the Oscars tied in with the documentary framing device. That infamous (possibly inaccurate) comment aside, I liked how Bette decide to bury the feud with Joan and respectfully declined to participate.

All in all, this was entertaining.

Wow, every word you said was what I was thinking and what I came here to write, but now I don't have to.  This episode was the best in so many ways as it wrapped it all up, circling back to instances in their lives since the 1960's, as well as having it culminate at the 1978 Academy Awards, which makes the interview scenes shown the entire series more relevant now.

I too found it interesting that Joan knew her daughter was writing a book and maybe that's why she left her out of the will.  Also, we have Joan explaining (really to the audience) that she recognizes she was too hard on Christina at the height of her career and was easier and more relaxed with the twins.  Again, that is Murphy trying to undo some of the damage done by "Mommie Dearest" -- and to Joan's reputation.

On 4/24/2017 at 9:28 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

I had no idea Bette did a movie with Faye Dunaway. That's amazing!

The Young and the Restless? Wonder what that call out was all about?

Yes, watch Bette Davis trash Faye Dunaway on one of her last appearances with Carson on YouTube.

They were both confessing that they sometimes are so lonely that they sit around watching soap operas at home alone nowadays.

On 4/24/2017 at 1:29 PM, txhorns79 said:

I had read that Joan was intoxicated on the set, but pulled it together once they started filming.  You can see the episode on YouTube.  It's not the best performance, and Joan was playing herself. 

Yes, after that episode of "The Lucy Show" Crawford was reported as saying about Ball, "And they call me a bitch?!"

On 4/24/2017 at 8:44 PM, ChicagoChris said:

Hard to believe Joan took in a doggie in her later years. I think it's great in many ways but it surprises me because of all the OCD and repulsion to dirt she allegedly had.

Murphy deliberately showed that Joan had softened on her obsession with cleanliness when her grandkids were sliding on the floor and their mother told them to stop, but grandma Joan replied, "Oh it's okay, they're having fun.  What's a few scuff marks on the floor?"

22 hours ago, Daisy head said:

On 4/24/2017 at 9:59 AM, sugarbaker design said:

Although, I was hoping for a brief scene of Joan substituting for a sick Christina on Secret Storm.

I was hoping for this as well.   I was sure it would be included.

Really?  Because I was sure it wouldn't be.  That was covered thoroughly in Mommie Dearest and Murphy did not want to be seen as competing with that film.  He was more or less filling in the blanks left out of the movie, although he did copy a few scenes and notions from it.

[bmoore4026]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree.  If she's willing to be violent with innocent adults, I can't imagine what she would do with a child who was making her upset.  It's honestly hard to know what was true between Joan and Christina.  Maybe the most outrageous things weren't true, but it still would have left her with a parent who was abusive.

She threw those vases in fits of anger, though, and was immediately sorry for it afterwards.  This is common with people with chemical imbalances and bi-polar disorder, which Crawford more than likely had.

About that Oscar night and Joan's two seconds in the Memorium.   Bette and the rest were sad and disgusted that Joan only got two seconds, but, as you can see in this video, they all got two seconds, even iconic figures like Elvis, Charlie Chaplin, and Groucho Marx.

I can't find the 1990 Oscar Memorium (the one that would have Bette in it)

[txhorns79]

Quote

She threw those vases in fits of anger, though, and was immediately sorry for it afterwards.  This is common with people with chemical imbalances and bi-polar disorder, which Crawford more than likely had.

I'm wary of trying to diagnose Crawford nearly forty years after she died.   Maybe she had that issue, maybe she didn't.  I don't think it can be said she "more than likely" had any specific diagnosis, as there's so much of her life to which we will never be privy. 

And seriously, did Ryan Murphy lose at poker to Kathy Bates, and therefore owed her money?  It was like Kathy Bates was there solely to get a paycheck.  You could cut Joan Blondell from the series entirely, and I don't think anything would have to be changed.     

[Daisy head]

19 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Really?  Because I was sure it wouldn't be.  That was covered thoroughly in Mommie Dearest and Murphy did not want to be seen as competing with that film.  He was more or less filling in the blanks left out of the movie, although he did copy a few scenes and notions from it.

Yes, I did.  I don't think of her appearance on Secret Storm as being the exclusive domain of MD.  She actually did appear.  I thought Murphy was trying to stay away from the allegations of the book, not things that irrefutably happened, but were also mentioned in the book.  I certainly didn't expect to see JL start beating a kid with wire hangers, but that was an allegation, not an event captured on film that thousands of people watched.  JMO.

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I admit it, for all the flaws of the series, this season got me pretty emotional. Seeing the last days of Joan, and hearing about the deaths of all the other real life versions of the characters, it really felt like the death of Old Hollywood. As much as I feel they emphasized the patheticness of Joan too much, I did feel really sad for her here. Her whole life was built around imagine, and when she couldn't live up to that perfect imagine anymore, everyone just forgot about her. She still had all the talent and the glamour, but no one cared enough to see that. Granted, some of her problems were brought on by her own pettiness and ego, but she still deserved better.

Bette looked pretty awesome in her 70s clothes, actually. My biggest complaint about the show was that I felt that, in the end, Bette ended up playing second fiddle to Joan, in a show that was clearly supposed to be about both of them. The reasons for that, I think, are that Joan has more of the classic Hollywood Babylon story, while Bette hid her tragedy behind snark, and kept working and being a presence in the public eye, and, of course, Ryan Murphys never ending love affair with Jessica Lange. The more time he can focus on her, the happier he is. The things we got with Bette were certainly really well done, and I ended up really liking SS in the role, but I think she deserved more. I also question them portraying the roast as something that upset her. From the clips I saw here, she seemed to find it pretty funny. She always has a sense of humor about herself, which is why I think she handled her later years better than Joan.

The dream sequence was really lovely. It almost felt like a bitter sweet scene in a ghost story, with the ghosts of Old Hollywood saying goodbye. The lighting was beautiful, and it was so nice to see Joan like that before she died. It even gave Jack and Hedda a more sympathetic moment, after being assholes for most of the show.

I will really miss my weekly Old Hollywood fix. My kingdom for another series about Hollywood history.

Well said - I love this!

Edited April 25, 2017 by Daisy head

[Milburn Stone]

14 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Bette was repeatedly asked about her and she had her usual spicy sense of humor but with Joan said that she was very professional. The closest she got was once she giggled "We only worked together for three weeks. I don't know what would have happened if it had been three months ..." 

That's really interesting--the quote, and also the fact contained within the quote--because from the show, I sure got the impression that they were together on the film for more than three weeks. Maybe a strict look at the timeline in the show would support three weeks, but the feeling that came through was that the various personal hells created by behavior on the shoot were of longer duration.

[Daisy head]

3 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

She threw those vases in fits of anger, though, and was immediately sorry for it afterwards.  This is common with people with chemical imbalances and bi-polar disorder, which Crawford more than likely had.

About that Oscar night and Joan's two seconds in the Memorium.   Bette and the rest were sad and disgusted that Joan only got two seconds, but, as you can see in this video, they all got two seconds, even iconic figures like Elvis, Charlie Chaplin, and Groucho Marx.

I can't find the 1990 Oscar Memorium (the one that would have Bette in it)

That song was really beautiful.

[benteen]

4 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

She threw those vases in fits of anger, though, and was immediately sorry for it afterwards.  This is common with people with chemical imbalances and bi-polar disorder, which Crawford more than likely had.

About that Oscar night and Joan's two seconds in the Memorium.   Bette and the rest were sad and disgusted that Joan only got two seconds, but, as you can see in this video, they all got two seconds, even iconic figures like Elvis, Charlie Chaplin, and Groucho Marx.

 

I can't find the 1990 Oscar Memorium (the one that would have Bette in it)

I believe I saw Bing Crosby too, who died in 1977.

Edited April 25, 2017 by benteen

[asabovesobelow]

I loved it. I really, really loved it. The whole series.

It was not without its faults - most of the time it felt like the Joan show, and I eagerly awaited Bette scenes. It was really depressing toward the end. They could have thrown in a few lighter moments to break up the heaviness.

However, the fact that a 50+ year old story felt fresh and familiar, relatable and out of touch - all at the same time - truly is a feat.

I was sad to see it end. My favorite scene of the night was Bette raising her glass to Joan during the in memoriam. A subtle but nuanced send off. 'Yeah, we didn't like each other, we pissed each other off and loved to needle each other, but I respected you.' They were two women who gave it their all, all of the time. 

[Melancholy]

I also loved this series, even though it had its faults. It wasn't as perfect as People vs. OJ Simpson but it further proves the (at first unlikely) proposition of Ryan Murphy as a great show runner for prestige historical anthologies.  

Small moment, but I loved Jack Warner's analysis about how the hell that he that he put the actresses through would all be worth it when their lives and films become iconic. It's self-serving and false. Warner wasn't a director or something trying to extract a hard performance. He was a businessman who publicly did things contrary to producing art like pressuring actors to perform bad scripts to churn out more movies or eliminate the experiences of all women over 40 as worth making into movies. 

...But, Stanley Tucci really convinced me that Jack Warner was telling himself that and its because you don't get to be an epic Hollywood mogul who pioneered the film industry without loving the hell out of movies. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Melancholy

[Growsonwalls]

4 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I also loved this series, even though it had its faults. It wasn't as perfect as People vs. OJ Simpson but it further proves the (at first unlikely) proposition of Ryan Murphy as a great show runner for prestige historical anthologies.  

Small moment, but I loved Jack Warner's analysis about how the hell that he that he put the actresses through would all be worth it when their lives and films become iconic. It's self-serving and false. Warner wasn't a director or something trying to extract a hard performance. He was a businessman who publicly did things contrary to producing art like pressuring actors to perform bad scripts to churn out more movies or eliminate the experiences of all women over 40 as worth making into movies. 

...But, Stanley Tucci really convinced me that Jack Warner was telling himself that and its because you don't get to be an epic Hollywood mogul who pioneered the film industry without loving the hell out of movies. 

I actually think that Warner honestly believed this. In fact, I think many people of that era in Hollywood still tell themselves this -- that the changed names, plastic surgery, failed relationships, failed marriages, lavender marriages,../  casting couch, and all-around sleaze of the industry is worth it because as Charlton Heston once said, "No one makes a bad movie on purpose." 

I don't think you could survive in the business as long as Warner, Davis and Crawford without really loving movies. And thank you Stanley Tucci for always making Jack Warner a real, believable person despite the villainous writing. 

[Carolina Girl]

On 4/23/2017 at 9:27 PM, mamadrama said:

Husband: So, did it have a happy ending?

I had no idea how to answer that. I teared up at almost every scene. 

Now I feel guilty for having ever read or watched "Mommie Dearest."

ETA: I read BD's book a long time ago and I never really saw anything terrible about Bette's relationship with her-nothing to warrant her writing a "tell all" about her. To me, BD always came across looking worse than her mother. 

I always thought BD was trying to cash in on the success of Christina Crawford's book.  I could be wrong, of course. but even at the time it was initially published my reaction was "ah, what Christina darling hath wrought.
As to the question of did Joan know about the book before she died, this is a quote from a Vanity Fair article published at the time:

Quote

"I think she’s using my name strictly to make money ... I think this book will be full of lies and twisted truths. I don’t think my adopted daughter is writing this book just to hurt me. If her purpose were to hurt me, she has already accomplished it without going to the trouble of writing a book."

The full article is here:  https://www.bustle.com/p/did-joan-crawford-know-about-mommie-dearest-her-daughters-book-is-forever-linked-with-her-legacy-53122

[newyawk]

5 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

She threw those vases in fits of anger, though, and was immediately sorry for it afterwards. 

A lot of abusive people apologize afterward, it doesn't excuse or justify their behavior. Especially when it is a parent towards a much younger child.

[Growsonwalls]

Think it's also a misconception that victims of abuse are always these scared, frightened birds. Many victims of abuse can be difficult people. They can be demanding, bratty, entitled. In fact, the sharp edges of their personalities often exacerbate the toxic relationships that often result in abuse. I remember reading about Nicole Brown Simpson and the fact that around Brentwood she was known for being a somewhat difficult, demanding woman whereas OJ was charm itself (at least to the public). Doesn't make the abuse she suffered at the hands of OJ any less real.

I'm kind of horrified at the suggestion that because Christina wasn't the nicest person and Joan had loyal friends within the industry that her accusations should be dismissed out of hand. 

[newyawk]

It makes sense to me that people who have been abused would end up either defensive or prepared to go on the offensive with everyone around them.

[A Boston Gal]

On 4/24/2017 at 5:25 AM, vb68 said:

That was indeed very sad. it was almost painful to watch. I do agree it seemed disconnected from the main part of the series. Probably because in their later years there really was no Feud.  They didn't see or talk to each other, except in dreams apparently, but they had to stretch the series out.

I was horrified and cringed at all the blood from Joan's mouth when she was brushing her teeth. I couldn't believe she let herself get in such a condition. It did warm my heart that Mamacita  came back. I really do think Joan was a person who needed someone to look after her. It was nice to see she was loved by Cathy  even though it still made me sad that she asked if the children considered her their real Grandmother.

I thought Jessica especially did fantastic work and disagree with others that it was just another aging beauty AHS character.  I this this episode showed that it went much deeper than that.

As for Bette, I still wish we had seen more of her famous wit. I remember a lot of her talkshow appearances in the 80s and the woman was an absolute hoot.  I also wish we had seen her reaction to Bette Davis Eyes. Supposedly she loved it.  It would had been fun seeing her dancing to it or receiving the gold record from Kim Carnes.    I kept wanting her to slap BD too. What an ungrateful child. But I'm biased there. The woman seems like a loon.  I think they should have noted at the end, like they did for Joan, just how disputed BD's book was by so many people, including her father.  I do agree that Sarandon worked with what she had, but it was disappointing that Bette became a secondary character.

Still not really sure why Joan Blondell was included at all except that Kathy Bates is a Ryan Murphy favorite.

All in all, I enjoyed it. It drifted some at the end, but I guess that's to be expected.  My biggest takeaway is that they were probably too alike and Hollywood too competitive for them to have an easy working relationship. And that's somewhat understandable and true outside of Hollywood, too.  I'm just not sure it was an actual "Feud."  At least from what was shown, Bette was a much less active participant. I don't know. Shades of grey and all that.  

Once again, vb68, you hit the nail on the head. Everything you said here, times 100.  I also missed BD's wit, and agree this was certainly Jessica's best episode, despite the plot drift, as you noted. And I didn't know Kim Carnes presented BD with her gold record! Would've loved to see that recreated!

Appropos of nothing: I've figured out over the years that if I am nodding my head throughout reading a post, chances are I'm reading one of vb's. ;)

Edited April 25, 2017 by A Boston Gal

[Joimiaroxeu]

10 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Yes, watch Bette Davis trash Faye Dunaway on one of her last appearances with Carson on YouTube.

I was thinking it was kind of meta that Bette did a movie with the woman who would later give what some consider--for better or worse--the iconic portrayal of Bette's lifelong nemesis.

Quote

They were both confessing that they sometimes are so lonely that they sit around watching soap operas at home alone nowadays.

But why Y&R and why the relatively obscure character they gushed over? Y&R was certainly popular then but so were several other soaps. It seemed like an oddly particular mention to me, almost as if it were some kind of inside joke.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[Blakeston]

31 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I was thinking it was kind of meta that Bette did a movie with the woman who would later give what some consider--for better or worse--the iconic portrayal of Bette's lifelong nemesis.

Not to mention that Crawford said that if an actress was going to play her, it could only be Faye Dunaway. And that Dunaway was the only current actress with "the talent and the class and the courage it takes to make a real star." 

[psychoticstate]

15 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Clark Gable was told to have ALL of his teeth removed. So he did and got dentures, which apparently gave him horrible halitosis. Another person who got all her teeth removed was Greta Garbo. 

And as for modern day modeling, uh ... I know someone who got on the cover of seventeen and stuff. She said that a designer taking a sharpie and circling all the areas you need to lose weight is still common, as is models doing stuff like eating toilet paper to stave off hunger. She wasn't resentful -- she's a doctor now and it's all in the past. Just matter of fact, that's how the fashion world is.

Eating toilet paper?  Good grief.  That's wrong on so many levels. 

 

15 hours ago, blaase said:

That was a disappointing end to a series that started out strong, seems to be a recurring problem with Murphy shows, even when the story is already written for him.

I hated  how Murphy portrayed Joan in the end, she wasn't as weak and lonely as Ryan Murphy made her out to be. Joan Crawford was a complex woman but seems like Murphy just went and wrote her in this series to get his pet Lange as many scenes as possible to get sympathy and all the awards.

I agree with you, @blaase.  Joan Crawford was a very complex woman and it would be difficult to capture everything about her in an eight episode series.  I do think she was lonely at times toward the end of her life but certainly not to the point Murphy wrote.  She did give interesting, gracious interviews in the 60s and she had been very charitable throughout her professional life.  She also did continue working with Pepsi until around 1973.  So it's a shame that she was written here as if she were a recluse from 1970 until 1977.

 

15 hours ago, ChicagoChris said:

 

Hard to believe Joan took in a doggie in her later years. I think it's great in many ways but it surprises me because of all the OCD and repulsion to dirt she allegedly had.

I read that Christopher was actually the 2nd boy Joan adopted. The 1st boy was taken back by his biological mother. I wonder what ever happened to that 1st boy. 

 

Joan actually had dogs from the 1930s on, starting with her marriage to Franchot Tone.  

And yes, Christopher was the second boy she adopted.  The bio mother of the first little boy saw a news story about Joan and her new son (then named Phillip Jr. after her then-husband Phil Terry) and confronted Joan.  Joan believed it would be better for the child to go back to his bio mother and not fight and so she gave him up.  The bio mother then promptly sold him to another family.  

3 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

They were two women who gave it their all, all of the time. 

This is an extremely astute, accurate and simple statement of Bette and Joan.  Bravo! 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Feud: Bette And Joan Ends With Great Regret And Greater Beauty

The only thing missing from this finale -- which takes us through the final decade of Joan Crawford's life -- is a cool, refreshing Pepsi-Cola.

[JasonCC]

I feel like I had always heard that the removal of teeth to emphasize cheekbones was Marlene Dietrich (coming from Germany to Hollywood). I mean I wouldn't be surprised if Joan did it too, and her cheeks in the Silent films were rounder and the killer cheekbones did seem to emerge post-1930 or so. 

I remember reading a Crawford biography my grandmother had (not "Mommie Dearest") and it referred to a "steak diet" she went on to quickly shed some pounds in the early days at MGM. At the time I read it was the height of the low-fat, anti-red meat "saturated fat alone makes you fat" hysteria of the early 1990s, so a steak diet seemed absurd to me then. Now? No-carb/high protein/Paleo does not seem weird in the least. Everything comes back around again.

Edited April 25, 2017 by JasonCC

[illini1959]

15 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I will really miss my weekly Old Hollywood fix. My kingdom for another series about Hollywood history.

Me, too!

Hedda & Louella? Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis, Debbie Reynolds & Elizabeth Taylor, Olivia & Joan....the list goes on.

I'd also be really happy with any story, not necessarily "feuds". I love that time period.

[Lady Iris]

I never knew that JC was into Christian Science. That was news to me.

[atlantaloves]

She became a Christian Scientist late in life. 

[enoughcats]

Somewhere someone mentioned Joan Crawford's square body shape.

[txhorns79]

Quote

That's somewhat of the point of it.  Murphy wanted to "right a wrong" so to speak by balancing out the legacy of "Mommie Dearest" (book and film) and showing a more objective point of view.  I was very impressed, more so than I thought.  The series wasn't just camp, but something deeper.

I don't think Murphy showed a more "objective" point of view on Joan.  I think what we've seen is just as subjective as Mommie Dearest, except in a different way.  As others noted, it wasn't like Joan actually spent the last years of her life as a recluse, or that she was abandoned in the way the show suggested.  She still had friends and family, as well as still going out.  She just was no longer making public appearances or otherwise working.     

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Hedda & Louella

It's been done, albeit 30+ years ago, in a TV movie called Malice in Wonderland. Liz Taylor played Louella. I'm still rooting for Debbie Reynolds & Elizabeth Taylor, though I don't know if it was so much a feud between them as plain old adultery. What's interesting is that they had previously been fairly close friends and the two couples (Liz and Mike Todd, Debbie and Eddie Fisher) even vacationed together.

Quote

Somewhere someone mentioned Joan Crawford's square body shape.

She certainly was a stunning woman back then. No wonder it was so hard for her to accept it when her youthful beauty had faded.

[iMonrey]

Quote

if you ask them about Joan Crawford the first thing that will come to mind is Mommie Dearest, and now maybe that she was a pathetic, insecure bitch (which lets face it, maybe she was).  But she was a lot more than that and I guess I am just hoping for some kind of vehicle (other than her own movies) to come along that might somehow "redeem" her legacy.

I honestly think this was about as well-rounded a depiction of Crawford as you're likely to get without white-washing. It avoided much of the campy cliches and presented Crawford as a three dimensional human being instead of a caricature. That she might have appeared somewhat "pathetic" is due to the time period that covers the end of her career rather than the beginning, so the major triumphs in her life were already a thing of the past. I don't think they could have done an honest portrayal of Crawford without acknowledging her alcoholism either, it's pretty well known. Overall it's a fairer assessment of Crawford than Mommie Dearest, that's for sure.

[qtpye]

Quote

 

Murphy too cute by half having Bette Davis slagging future Mommie Dearest star Faye Dunaway.  Davis is rightly iconic, but Dunaway did Chinatown, Bonnie & Clyde, Network, The Thomas Crown Affair, Barfly, Three Days of the Condor, The Eyes of Laura Mars, Little Big Man, The Towering Inferno.  No slouch.  

No slouch, but according to Bette on the Johnny Carson show the most unprofessional person she ever worked with. She added that anyone else he asked would tell him the same thing.

 

 

Since Faye was mentioned in this episode, this article reports her both her bizarre behavior on set, as well as her admirable devotion to embodying Joan.

http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/you_must_remember_this/2016/09/faye_dunaway_in_mommie_dearest_the_real_story.html

Edited April 25, 2017 by qtpye

[enoughcats]

14 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Since Faye was mentioned in this episode, this article reports her both her bizarre behavior on set, as well as her admirable devotion to embodying Joan.

http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/you_must_remember_this/2016/09/faye_dunaway_in_mommie_dearest_the_real_story.html

Heck of a read.  

[kassa]

There have been questions about how Joan would have seen galleys before her death -- she was probably offered a copy of the proposed/submitted/accepted manuscript.  Wouldn't have had to have reached the galley stage to be sent out.  I'm sure it was sent to lawyers and fact checkers long before they even set the copy editors on it, and sending it to Joan to see if she would be able to blow it out of the water on its veracity before they published wouldn't have been out of the question.  If they sent it later in the process, it could also have been to elicit a strong reaction from her which would prime the pump for the release of the book.  

As to why Bette was defended and BD maligned while Joan was tarred forever with Mommie Dearest -- one of the reasons was that there was corroboration from other people to stories Christina told.  Men who had dated Joan and seen how she treated the kids, guys who dated Christina and saw how Joan was around the house, even servants, if I recall.  Yes, they could all have been lying/jumping on the bandwagon, but there did seem to be more fire behind Christina's smoke than BD's.  And then the movie became a camp classic, no more wire hangars, etc., and a generation who didn't know a thing about her took it at face value.  

[Jules2307]

On 4/24/2017 at 1:23 PM, psychoticstate said:

I ended up liking this episode although I wish it had been done in two parts since quite a bit was left out.  As others have mentioned, nothing on Crawford being on The Secret Storm or Night Gallery.  Nothing on Davis filming The Whales of August or releasing her own memoirs.  

While Joan did make no official public appearances in the last 4 or so years of her life, she still had friends that she kept in contact with by going to lunch, phone calls and correspondence.  The show definitely made it appear that she was completely alone, save for Mamacita at the end.  She had a Christian Scientist practitioner that visited with her every day as well as a nurse or someone that stayed overnight with her. 

I totally agree with the earlier poster who said that no way in hell would Joan get up and walk away from a book signing.  Absolutely not.  She valued her fans far too much.  I don't think she would have been offended by someone saying she was a survivor - - she might very well have agreed.  I also think she would have been appreciative that someone loved one of her films. 

I also want to say that the tidbit at the beginning with Pauline saying she saw Joan at LaGuardia with pancake white makeup on, in a wheelchair and drunk off her ass was unnecessarily cruel and not true. 

While I know that Bette never called Joan upon hearing about her suffering with cancer, I was really hoping she would.  Again, these ladies had so much in common and could have been allies, if not friends.

I like that Ryan Murphy did not assume that MD was 100% gospel truth and I did appreciate the scene with Joan, Cathy and Cathy's children.  According to Cathy's son, the sliding on the floors did really happen.  It wasn't mentioned in the series but he says they called Joan "JoJo."  

I appreciated that the afterwords mentioned how MD was denounced by many of Joan's friends, co-workers and her two youngest children.  I'm sorry that Murphy didn't see fit to include the same about Bette with regard to MMK although MMK never came close to disgracing Bette's legacy as MD did to Joan.

I also want to say that while some people (not necessarily people here) have felt disgusted over BD's book and BD for writing it, Christina appears to have escaped that same type of criticism.  BD is seen as terrible, horrific for writing that book about her mother while Joan is the one demonized for Christina's book.  Just saying. 

I am thankful that, as was mentioned in the afterword, more people have come around to watching Joan's films and seeing how talented she was (in some films, far more so than others.)  As Olivia (or was it Joan B.?) said during the 1978 Oscar tributes, Crawford contributed to the industry for 50 years and was only deigned two seconds . . . that's what is truly sad.  And that terrible MD tarnished the brilliant career she had, at a time when women were considered throwaways once they hit 30 or 35.  She and Davis kept kicking and fighting for their careers.  They should be admired and celebrated for that alone.

The episode did bring me to tears and I thought it was much better than the previous two.  Jessica Lange really brought it for this particular episode.  I hope, if nothing else, the show brings new appreciation to the work of Bette and Joan. 

For me, I believed Christina and still do. I'm not saying that the twins didn't have a different experience but even when people defended her, the person they described was a narcissistic control freak. That combined with her alcoholism and the way she always talked about Christina and Christopher, made me far more inclined to believe Christina. Helen Hayes publicly saying that she believed Christina helped as well.

My Mother's Keeper was salacious but there was nowhere near the level of abuse that was in Mommie Dearest. Bette Davis just seemed like a sad, lonely alcoholic with abandonment issues. Joan Crawford came off as a manipulative abuser.

The last difference is what happened to Christina and BD. Christina has been a child abuse advocate for decades, why would she waste her time and energy if she made it all up? BD became a zealot who speaks in tongue and still insists that her mother was possessed by Satan.

[Carolina Girl]

With the series finally being over, I sat back and asked myself what my favorite movie was by Joan Crawford.  Had to be "The Women", directed by George Cukor and staring that exceptional cast.  I still watch it whenever it's on TCM.  

But Bette - Bette was always my favorite, since I was a teenager.  I can't even begin to think of my favorite of her films, but I do know that "All About Eve" is the one I'm always annoyed I've missed when I see it was on TV.  I do a search every Sunday for "Bette Davis" and hit the DVR record button.  

[psychoticstate]

59 minutes ago, kassa said:

As to why Bette was defended and BD maligned while Joan was tarred forever with Mommie Dearest -- one of the reasons was that there was corroboration from other people to stories Christina told.  Men who had dated Joan and seen how she treated the kids, guys who dated Christina and saw how Joan was around the house, even servants, if I recall.  Yes, they could all have been lying/jumping on the bandwagon, but there did seem to be more fire behind Christina's smoke than BD's.  And then the movie became a camp classic, no more wire hangars, etc., and a generation who didn't know a thing about her took it at face value.  

But more people defended Joan than maligned her.  I think people wanted to believe the worst because it was more titillating and exciting.  And in 1978, the salacious tell-all was novel (no pun intended.)  

Regardless, those that believe Christina and think Joan was a narcissistic, alcoholic abuser won't be swayed by anything said here; just as those that don't believe that about Joan aren't going to change their minds likewise.

[Growsonwalls]

It's interesting that B.D. in her tell-all says a lot of things about Bette but stops short of accusing Bette of anything that's actual abuse. She spanked her grandkids -- that was common in Bette's era to spank kids. She had a drinking problem. She had a messed up relationship with men. She was difficult and manipulative. But even with the mindset of a salacious tell-all she didn't accuse Bette of abuse. There's a lot of dirty laundry being aired and I understand Bette completely for disowning B.D. But B.D. doesn't accuse Bette of abuse. It's ugly, unpleasant stuff but it's not abuse.

I just think Christina's accusations are way more serious, and I have a hard time believing any child would make them up out of thin air to be spiteful.